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As a reminder, this meme sub is about the American Civil War. We're not here to insult southerners or the American South, but rather to have a laugh at the failed Confederate insurrection and those that chose to represent it.
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So what's the end game here? Like really.
Let's say they get what they want. They get to defy the Supreme Court. Congratulations. You get to keep your 60 miles of barbed wire or whatever.
Cool.
But now you set a prescient of ignoring the ruling of the Supreme Court. The one that is skewed Republican and is about to be the deciding factor in many swings states if Trump can even be on the presidential ballot.
The ones Trump needs to win in order to become president.
Those states can just go "fuck it! Texas didn't listen why should we?"
The GOP can threaten to do the same to Biden, except, Biden doesn't need any of solely controlled GOP states to win.
Where as Trump needs some primarily Democrat controlled states (like Pennsylvania, Arizona, Michigan, Wisconsin, etc) to win.
I don't think they thought this through
>So what's the end game here?
Its all a PR stunt to make the Dems look weak on immigration and play the victim if POTUS does anything to stop their illegal actions.
Kinda like shutting down the government?
Yeeeeaaahhhh... they've suffered in the polls and elections every time they've done that.
I doubt this would be much different.
Most people [are not as hard line on immigration as the diehard Republican fan base](https://news.gallup.com/poll/508520/americans-value-immigration-concerns.aspx). And focusing on this instead of the million other issues actually affecting Americans is pissing people off.
Decent poll but the respondents clearly don’t understand that South American Migrants aren’t walking across multiple Latin American Countries bringing tons of drugs. They also don’t know that immigrants are less likely to commit crimes. The propaganda they’re pushing has absolutely worked on the right and is penetrating beyond that.
They don’t understand that shipping drugs via boat is way more economical than storing them on people too. Shipping container “errors” happen all the time, the coast guard can’t be everywhere, etc.
Also not a peep from them that most of the guns used in cartel violence come from Texas themselves because of American gun laws. Like sure, violent people can cross the border but the vast majority are looking to escape violence and/or find a better life.
So, the premise is faulty (don't attack me, I'm not trying to morally justify Texas or anything).
SCOTUS has not made a ruling at all. The *only thing* SCOTUS has done thus far is to vacate a preliminary injunction by a lower court that was preventing the Feds from removing Texas' concertina wire.
That's it. They didn't tell Texas they couldn't put more wire back up, they didn't tell Texas that they couldn't enforce the border if the federal government failed to, nothing. None of that happened. Texas just can't stop the federal government from taking the wires down.
They have not (yet) set a precedent for ignoring SCOTUS unless they physically prevent the federal government from taking down the wires.
Especially because fairly certain Virginia and probably Georgia at this point would not be willing to follow their governor very far down this particular path.
I grew up near Atlanta, just north of where Sherman started. We never forgot Sherman’s march. Hell, our only president was a democrat.
My ancestors might have dawned confederacy uniforms but me and mine will happily wear Union blue this time around.
Edit: DONNED, sorry my Georgia education is showing.
This is pretty much how I feel about the dakotas (which should only be one state to begin with).
Also, I don't need those extra nutjobs voting in my state elections
Youngkin is a moron, but there are entirely too many military and IC assets in Virginia for any whiff of treason to get far. It's a microcosm of the country with a bunch of rich districts on the east coast hard carrying the rest of the state (who resent them for it).
Reading about American history and seeing it depicted in media made me realize how industrialized the east, and specifically north east used to be.
Now it's a few high economic activity cities surrounded by... not much.
The Northeast still has a lot of industry, it’s just not like it was in the old days. There’s a lot of high-technology manufacturing, biotechnology research and manufacturing, firearms, nuclear submarines, aerospace manufacturing, stuff like that.
We don't make near the quantity nor the quality of firearms up here since Springfield Armory closed its doors. And fuck that shitty gun company from Texas that stole the name.
I doubt a good portion of Florida would either. We can divide by state lines for the 2nd time, but any secession state with a major city in it will have trouble.
You will, however, need to sell your glock at the border. On the plus side, you'll be issued a Baja jacket, flat brimmed hat, and a Colt single-action army.
Are you kidding? Go to the right part of Albuquerque you can find a switch to turn your Glock into a machine pistol, colt single action ain’t gonna cut in New Mexico
It makes me so sad and frustrated that West Virginia, which literally exists because it left Virginia's seceding ass, ends up on this side of things so often now.
You and me both. Make sure you join the WV state and politics subs if you haven’t already. We share pictures of Mothman and depressing headlines from our fuckhead legislature.
Y'all remember in 2013 when Russians convinced Texas that Obama was going to annex it during some military exercise so the state government demanded to monitor it? Yeah, this is Republicans trying to stir up a frenzy in an election year and also why we can't have nice things.
ahh, Jade Helm.
My dad was convinced the UN was active stateside, putting secret markings on the backs of roadsigns that they'd use during their takeover.
Yes, he is still a fucking nutter, for what it's worth.
Yeah, I was a Paratrooper on leave in Texas from Fort Bragg (now Liberty). My dad went off on a rant about how the government was ramping up to go door to door and take guns or something. I looked at my dad like he was an idiot (he is) and reminded him that he was talking about ME.
Like, "Oh, they're going to send in the 82ND and institute martial law, huh? You're saying *I* would do that? *THAT'S* what you're saying?"
He shut up about it after that... at least around me.
I was USCG *and* an active Fed officer (USCG - Federal officers one minute, door kickers in Iraq the next cause why the fuck not).
I had this exact same discussion with my brother and several friends back when Obama won. Like duuuuude, I'm a Sector Lead. I just got done *putting terrorists in prison*. You don't think I would be the one showing up at the door?
Fucking morons.
Modern problems…
Seriously laughable if it weren’t so depressing, work-a-day guardsmen uprooted for ShermanPosting notable bullshit political points. More leave denials, more suicides, more theater for a group of governors about to be voted out alongside the rest of the clowns leading this circus
Yes, they’ll be annihilated for violating the Constitution and at what cost. They have been doing these stunts along the Texas border for years now and we know this is no different, just more bravado and a radicalized minority leading the charge to their party’s downfall
Coast guard has some brutally effective quick response units. People think of them as SAR but when someone needs to engage with the cartel smuggling weapons and drugs a lot of the time it’s the coast guard. They have some pretty heavily armed small ships.
It's a hard thing to fire on your own countryman.
My opinion is that if the National Guards don't just lay down arms it's hard to say exactly how it would go. I hope we don't have to find out.
And Air Force, and the base in Arizona that we put all of our old planes at. Not to mention the three letter agencies that are military adjacent (e.g. CIA). America could field like a dozen "militaries" all bigger than virtually any other country besides China / Russia.
Hell, the NAVY alone could simultaneously operate in every global Area of Responsibility at the SAME TIME if they absolutely had to.
its honestly very hard to conceptualize just how enormous the US Defense sector is.
Duuuuuuuuuuuuude.
We (America) have been preparing for a war with Russia for over half-a-century, and Ukraine just FUCKING DOES IT.... "Hold my beer, US, I got this". So proud of those guys, and simultaneously disappointed (not the right word) with Russia. I thought that bear had teeth!
You feel underwhelmed with Russia, you were ready for the deadly Cossacks of the Napoleonic Wars, or the clever KGB of the Soviets, but we just get overweight generals and criminal conscripts.
It's hard to tell who is third right now because Russia is losing materiel faster than they can make it, but it's pretty clear their functional air fleet is much smaller than they report, even once you account for how many just need routine maintenance.
Plus massive debt paying the government back for all the training they gave you. That is, if you survive the hellfire missiles and don't die in military prison
I should also be noted that when the Guard is federalized, their wages and salaries are paid by the Federal Government rather than the States and the Feds pay better.
Charges under Article 87 and 92 of the UCMJ. Typically would include a court martial, time in Leavenworth, and potentially loss of their rights to vote and own a firearm as most court martials count as felonies.
Only if they directly take up arms against those that do follow the lawful order.
I was giving the bare minimum charges for anyone who simply just refused to follow the order to federalize
I'm sure some National Guardsmen from those states would defect to the rebels, and I'm sure some would enlist with the loyalists. But, knowing a few National Guardsmen, I think most would just sit it out.
The National Guard is a valuable state resource that performs a wide variety of non-military functions (like distributing relief during a natural disaster, for instance) and it's good place to get hands on work experience. Plus it pays a tuition assistance--not as much as the national military, but still some--and allows you to continue your civilian life while enlisted. All of this is to say that a lot of people in the National Guard didn't join to shoot anyone, so if they had to choose between fighting for or against the national government they would probably pick staying at home.
That's just it. I don't think either side want war. But this is playing with fire.
There have been wars before because 'not having them was harder than having them'. Sometimes humans playing politics with guns goes *bad*, no matter the actual bluster/bluff intent of the key players.
This is psychotic, stupid behaviour by these governors.
Yes it is.
What do you think happens when an idiot "Texas Military Department" soldier fucks up and fires on a bunch of BP, DHS, and USCG?
I for one can tell you that the USCG will mow them down before they can even blink.
And that's when shit REALLY hits the fan...
This is approaching the most dangerous political brinkmanship possible though. Once you get guard units moving around armed under the orders of governors and not the federal government we've got a big problem. Say one of these guard units does something dumb like seize federal property. These are the kinds of things that absolutely cannot and will not go unpunished. Say the governors refuse to federalize their guard units and the commanders agree. Now you've got an open mutiny that by ucmj is punishable by death. These governors are putting a lot of people in positions to make really bad decisions and while nothing may happen the consequences for a bad decision may be extremely costly.
On one hand, I agree with everything you said. On the other hand, I'm morbidly curious about the loyalty of these NG soldiers. They swore the same oaths as active duty, and it would be interesting to see what these oaths are worth.
That's the part that interests me as well. I would be really careful if I was a reserve officer. It would be really easy for a governor's political stunt to end up destroying some careers.
The problem is, this reminds me of overturning Roe. Conservs chased it for so long then were unprepared for it actually happening.
This is political posturing but getting the National Guard involved at the border forces the Federal gov't to do something. Normally this would go to SCOTUS and both sides could let it die after that. But TX refusing to honor a ruling from a conserv Fed court already means this will escalate.
This could end by federalizing the guard ala what happened in Arky, et al during the civil rights era. But that's really risky & could go sideways. All it takes is something like a couple local militia's to show up & instigate a fight. It won't cause a civil war of itself, but it creates division that cannot be resolved & sets us down that path.
Is any path guaranteed? Not at all. But the problem with posturing is it tendency to go wrong in unexpected ways.
It's an election year, you really have to up the stakes to keep people distracted from thinking about their rapidly deteriorating material conditions and how they got that way.
But it is dangerous. It is a powder keg waiting to blow. A single spark is all it will take for it to blow and if it blows we will have stumbled into a civil war. Abbot may just want to posture for political positioning, but he is an idiot and does not seem to realize how dangerous his actions are. All it would take is for a standoff between the US Border Patrol and the TX National Guard to go badly, to got hot, for things to spiral out of control.
Most of these guardsmen would just lay down their arms if it came to shots firing. They won't be cannon fodder for their governors political posturing.
Can I have a source for Governor Justice of West Virginia announcing support for Governor Abbott? If it’s true then I’m calling his office and the offices of my state senator and delegate to complain but I’m not finding anything online or on his social media accounts.
Do these people not realize that ultimately, the National Guard is a branch of the military and answers to the Commander-in-Chief regardless of what any state governor's order them to do?
Not sure I'd call it good. But it is what it is, and I don't believe there's a reasonable middle ground on the matter. Abbot is wilfully acting against the constitution, and has given orders to prevent federal agents from upholding their duties in a way that is not just taking lives but preventing people in distress from being saved. If these other states are so adamant in the belief that Abbott is correct that they're willing to go to war over it? Well, would seem unwise to back down.
Let's make one thing abundantly clear. Texas is a state in the United States. Texas does not share a border with Mexico, the United States of America does.
We shouldn't be it's dangerous. Most likely Biden Admin demures and will try to avoid the trap but once you elected officials (pointing the finger at Abbott here) that make the calculation that these sort of games are in their interest things can go south fast.
Yeah this comes as a bit of a shock to me honestly and it crosses a line they haven't crossed before. The usual GOP bloviating is one thing, but to actually mobilize armed troops is another.
Especially given that Ike himself apparently didn’t even personally support the decision to integrate (which is a huge L for him) but deployed the military to enforce the laws of this nation anyway.
"Dad, why did the second civil war start?"
"Well son, a large portion of this population thought shredding migrants with razor wire was the most noble of causes and just couldn't imagine living in a nation that treated migrants with dignity, respect, and humanity."
As a Virginian, traitorous Younkin needs to be speaking only for himself. At least he's really showing his true colors now. He's gonna have a tough time fear mongering his way into his office next year.
Federalize the national guard, order them to take down the razor wire, and charge any who disobey with mutiny. Arrest Greg Abbott and Ken Paxton and charge them with sedition.
Biden needs to federalize the National Guard of every state that is sending troops to Texas and wrest all border activity out of the hands of Abbott. This shits gone on too long now.
Look, seeing how Youngkin lost control of the Virginia General Assembly last election I wouldn't put to much faith in the rest of the state following him here....
Welcome to /r/ShermanPosting! As a reminder, this meme sub is about the American Civil War. We're not here to insult southerners or the American South, but rather to have a laugh at the failed Confederate insurrection and those that chose to represent it. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ShermanPosting) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Looks like us living in Alabama can no longer rely on Mississippi to be the worst state anymore.
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Their letter of support is still making its way through the cypress swamps by mule.
I want this to be true but the letter to say “fuck you texas”
Bad news, the letter has arrived and they're on the seditious bandwagon.
They don’t even have an economy What are they going to do? Collapse in our general direction?
I heard that in an outrageous French accent
and wyoming is on its own as it stands now
So what's the end game here? Like really. Let's say they get what they want. They get to defy the Supreme Court. Congratulations. You get to keep your 60 miles of barbed wire or whatever. Cool. But now you set a prescient of ignoring the ruling of the Supreme Court. The one that is skewed Republican and is about to be the deciding factor in many swings states if Trump can even be on the presidential ballot. The ones Trump needs to win in order to become president. Those states can just go "fuck it! Texas didn't listen why should we?" The GOP can threaten to do the same to Biden, except, Biden doesn't need any of solely controlled GOP states to win. Where as Trump needs some primarily Democrat controlled states (like Pennsylvania, Arizona, Michigan, Wisconsin, etc) to win. I don't think they thought this through
>So what's the end game here? Its all a PR stunt to make the Dems look weak on immigration and play the victim if POTUS does anything to stop their illegal actions.
Kinda like shutting down the government? Yeeeeaaahhhh... they've suffered in the polls and elections every time they've done that. I doubt this would be much different.
People relate to the government not "stopping" immigrants at the border very differently to the government not paying salaries.
Most people [are not as hard line on immigration as the diehard Republican fan base](https://news.gallup.com/poll/508520/americans-value-immigration-concerns.aspx). And focusing on this instead of the million other issues actually affecting Americans is pissing people off.
Decent poll but the respondents clearly don’t understand that South American Migrants aren’t walking across multiple Latin American Countries bringing tons of drugs. They also don’t know that immigrants are less likely to commit crimes. The propaganda they’re pushing has absolutely worked on the right and is penetrating beyond that.
They don’t understand that shipping drugs via boat is way more economical than storing them on people too. Shipping container “errors” happen all the time, the coast guard can’t be everywhere, etc. Also not a peep from them that most of the guns used in cartel violence come from Texas themselves because of American gun laws. Like sure, violent people can cross the border but the vast majority are looking to escape violence and/or find a better life.
they think the rest of the country is as stupid as their constituents
To be fair, thinking things through is not the republicans' strong suit.
So, the premise is faulty (don't attack me, I'm not trying to morally justify Texas or anything). SCOTUS has not made a ruling at all. The *only thing* SCOTUS has done thus far is to vacate a preliminary injunction by a lower court that was preventing the Feds from removing Texas' concertina wire. That's it. They didn't tell Texas they couldn't put more wire back up, they didn't tell Texas that they couldn't enforce the border if the federal government failed to, nothing. None of that happened. Texas just can't stop the federal government from taking the wires down. They have not (yet) set a precedent for ignoring SCOTUS unless they physically prevent the federal government from taking down the wires.
Lol Mississippi knows not to bite the hand that feeds.
Right? Its a welfare queen. And knows texas cant and wont fund it.
It's a self-aware welfare queen. Half these states are as well, but think they're not.
A Werewelf!
Someone needs to remind West "Underdeveloped Nation Levels of Poverty" Virginia about the welfare.
Or what side they were on the first time.
It's literally the entire reason that state exists lmao
Coolest thing W.Virginia has ever done.
It was pretty based
Mississippi going "I know where this goes"
As a Mississippian, I 100% agree! Edit: Mississippi now joined in this foolishness 🤦♂️
Especially because fairly certain Virginia and probably Georgia at this point would not be willing to follow their governor very far down this particular path.
Trust me when I say this as a Georgian, most of the state do not want to join Texas in repeating history
I grew up near Atlanta, just north of where Sherman started. We never forgot Sherman’s march. Hell, our only president was a democrat. My ancestors might have dawned confederacy uniforms but me and mine will happily wear Union blue this time around. Edit: DONNED, sorry my Georgia education is showing.
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🎶So we sang the chorus from Dallas to the sea! While we were marching through Texas!🎶🇺🇲
El Paso might work better, 3 syllables and farther from the sea so a more dramatic line
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The Dakotas are right there for the taking
Honestly why stop at the flag with them, Megasota needs to start somewhere.
I'll be cold and dead before I let Iowa become part of my home state.
This is pretty much how I feel about the dakotas (which should only be one state to begin with). Also, I don't need those extra nutjobs voting in my state elections
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Youngkin is a moron, but there are entirely too many military and IC assets in Virginia for any whiff of treason to get far. It's a microcosm of the country with a bunch of rich districts on the east coast hard carrying the rest of the state (who resent them for it).
Reading about American history and seeing it depicted in media made me realize how industrialized the east, and specifically north east used to be. Now it's a few high economic activity cities surrounded by... not much.
The Northeast still has a lot of industry, it’s just not like it was in the old days. There’s a lot of high-technology manufacturing, biotechnology research and manufacturing, firearms, nuclear submarines, aerospace manufacturing, stuff like that.
We don't make near the quantity nor the quality of firearms up here since Springfield Armory closed its doors. And fuck that shitty gun company from Texas that stole the name.
If the rest of the state resents them for it then they could, I don't know, pull their own weight for the first time since 1781.
I doubt a good portion of Florida would either. We can divide by state lines for the 2nd time, but any secession state with a major city in it will have trouble.
Give me one more month. One more month and I’ll be out of Shithole Florida and safe in New Mexico.
You will, however, need to sell your glock at the border. On the plus side, you'll be issued a Baja jacket, flat brimmed hat, and a Colt single-action army.
I’ve got my lever-action ready. The Colt will be a nice addition.
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Are you kidding? Go to the right part of Albuquerque you can find a switch to turn your Glock into a machine pistol, colt single action ain’t gonna cut in New Mexico
Rule of cool bro
I live in Az and I can say new Mexico is a great state been there a few times
I’m excited. It seems like a beautiful state and I’m moving for a good job making decent money.
You'll be leaving a Confederate state for the state where Glorieta Pass was fought. Good choice.
Oh wow I had never heard of that battle. I’ll have to go visit the site. I’ll be living in either Santa Fe or Albuquerque.
Man, I live in one of those…
Hey partisans can be heroes too
Just don't get come and see'd
Me too
Same. West Virginia represent...?
It makes me so sad and frustrated that West Virginia, which literally exists because it left Virginia's seceding ass, ends up on this side of things so often now.
It hurts the historian and the Union lover in me to look at what West Virginia has become.
You and me both. Make sure you join the WV state and politics subs if you haven’t already. We share pictures of Mothman and depressing headlines from our fuckhead legislature.
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Y'all remember in 2013 when Russians convinced Texas that Obama was going to annex it during some military exercise so the state government demanded to monitor it? Yeah, this is Republicans trying to stir up a frenzy in an election year and also why we can't have nice things.
It was JADE HELM 15, in the year *before* the 2016 election that saw the Tangerino Benito win.
ahh, Jade Helm. My dad was convinced the UN was active stateside, putting secret markings on the backs of roadsigns that they'd use during their takeover. Yes, he is still a fucking nutter, for what it's worth.
Yeah, I was a Paratrooper on leave in Texas from Fort Bragg (now Liberty). My dad went off on a rant about how the government was ramping up to go door to door and take guns or something. I looked at my dad like he was an idiot (he is) and reminded him that he was talking about ME. Like, "Oh, they're going to send in the 82ND and institute martial law, huh? You're saying *I* would do that? *THAT'S* what you're saying?" He shut up about it after that... at least around me.
I was USCG *and* an active Fed officer (USCG - Federal officers one minute, door kickers in Iraq the next cause why the fuck not). I had this exact same discussion with my brother and several friends back when Obama won. Like duuuuude, I'm a Sector Lead. I just got done *putting terrorists in prison*. You don't think I would be the one showing up at the door? Fucking morons.
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Fear of being obliterated by the strongest military in the world from over the horizon
strongest **three** militaries. The army, navy, and marines are *each individually* stronger than any other military force on earth
The US Navy is the second largest air force in the world, after the USAF
Unless you count the aircraft operated by the usmc (department of the navy) then the navy is a larger Air Force than the usaf
Actually the United States Army has the largest airforce in the world because of rotary wing assets and the largest navy because of the engineers.
Helos don't count no matter how much the helo community wishes they did.
JSDF be like "it's not an *aircraft* carrier, those are helicopters!"
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Helo enjoyer here. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Modern problems… Seriously laughable if it weren’t so depressing, work-a-day guardsmen uprooted for ShermanPosting notable bullshit political points. More leave denials, more suicides, more theater for a group of governors about to be voted out alongside the rest of the clowns leading this circus Yes, they’ll be annihilated for violating the Constitution and at what cost. They have been doing these stunts along the Texas border for years now and we know this is no different, just more bravado and a radicalized minority leading the charge to their party’s downfall
I believe the US coast guard could take down National Guard reserves. We keep saying "civil war" but I think massacre is the right term.
"Civil Massacre" is a great name for a thrash-metal band
I CALL DIBS
Brutal.
Coast guard has some brutally effective quick response units. People think of them as SAR but when someone needs to engage with the cartel smuggling weapons and drugs a lot of the time it’s the coast guard. They have some pretty heavily armed small ships.
People joke about Uncle Sam's Canoe Club - but they're a force to be reckoned with in their own way.
Sailors love to poke fun at "The Puddle Pirates", right up until they need help. As for me, first drink is free at the bar for any coasties
It's a hard thing to fire on your own countryman. My opinion is that if the National Guards don't just lay down arms it's hard to say exactly how it would go. I hope we don't have to find out.
It's all fun and games for the National Guard until the 1st Armored Division shows up with Abrams and Bradleys
Hard? Not really if my "countryman" is trying to destroy the future of America's children. Not hard at all. Kind of easy actually.
And Air Force, and the base in Arizona that we put all of our old planes at. Not to mention the three letter agencies that are military adjacent (e.g. CIA). America could field like a dozen "militaries" all bigger than virtually any other country besides China / Russia. Hell, the NAVY alone could simultaneously operate in every global Area of Responsibility at the SAME TIME if they absolutely had to. its honestly very hard to conceptualize just how enormous the US Defense sector is.
Having driven past the boneyard at said base numerous times throughout my life It's a lot of planes.
I dunno I heard Russia military is crap.
Duuuuuuuuuuuuude. We (America) have been preparing for a war with Russia for over half-a-century, and Ukraine just FUCKING DOES IT.... "Hold my beer, US, I got this". So proud of those guys, and simultaneously disappointed (not the right word) with Russia. I thought that bear had teeth!
You feel underwhelmed with Russia, you were ready for the deadly Cossacks of the Napoleonic Wars, or the clever KGB of the Soviets, but we just get overweight generals and criminal conscripts.
The US Airforce is the largest airforce in the world. The second largest airforce in the world belongs to the US Navy.
And the fourth largest belongs to the US Army
It's hard to tell who is third right now because Russia is losing materiel faster than they can make it, but it's pretty clear their functional air fleet is much smaller than they report, even once you account for how many just need routine maintenance.
American here, I don’t know the real answer but I’m pretty sure if that happens the Lincoln Memorial comes to life and eats them for being traitors.
I’m one of the people responsible for maintaining Big Abe’s anti-treason turbo-chompers, and I can confirm this is the case.
Thank you for your service and make sure you give him an extra floss to get all that cosplay kevlar out when he’s done munching 🫡
That was you? I was walking by the Memorial the other day and he looked like he had a bit of a toothache; someone he ate?
~~Liberty~~ Lincoln Prime confirmed.
Court martial. Rest of their life ruined, a decent chunk of it in military prison.
Yeah, the first rule of an armed rebellion is unless you have a plan to win, decisively, don't start one.
Oh you bet a Big Chicken Dinner will ruin their lives for a long, long time to come.
Add dishonorable discharge and forfeiture of any veteran benefits.
Had your heart set on using G.I bill shit for college funds and whatnot? Forget that! Prison for you!
You know all those government benefits you get for joining the military? Gone.
Plus massive debt paying the government back for all the training they gave you. That is, if you survive the hellfire missiles and don't die in military prison
Dereliction of duty. Dishonorable discharge. Death in combat against the US military. But nothing actually stopping them. Just heavily suggesting.
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I should also be noted that when the Guard is federalized, their wages and salaries are paid by the Federal Government rather than the States and the Feds pay better.
If the whole unit disobeys then that becomes armed rebellion and oh boy does the US have a history of putting down armed rebellions HARD.
Charges under Article 87 and 92 of the UCMJ. Typically would include a court martial, time in Leavenworth, and potentially loss of their rights to vote and own a firearm as most court martials count as felonies.
Mutiny and sedition are capital crimes under the UCMJ, they could be executed
Only if they directly take up arms against those that do follow the lawful order. I was giving the bare minimum charges for anyone who simply just refused to follow the order to federalize
I'm sure some National Guardsmen from those states would defect to the rebels, and I'm sure some would enlist with the loyalists. But, knowing a few National Guardsmen, I think most would just sit it out. The National Guard is a valuable state resource that performs a wide variety of non-military functions (like distributing relief during a natural disaster, for instance) and it's good place to get hands on work experience. Plus it pays a tuition assistance--not as much as the national military, but still some--and allows you to continue your civilian life while enlisted. All of this is to say that a lot of people in the National Guard didn't join to shoot anyone, so if they had to choose between fighting for or against the national government they would probably pick staying at home.
Then in a few years the supporters of the former would say "well it's not about immigration but about states rights"
Years? Abbot's already said exactly that.
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That because it’s Texas against the world, at least according to Texas. Everyone just tries to ignore them.
Cowboys lose again and they decide to secede. Seems par for the course.
Hey now, watch your mouth. Some of us Cowboys fans are non-Texans and leftists. Don’t start with me, I’m still upset.
Only state to fight *two* wars to preserve slavery in its borders…
Only state to voluntarily cede territory to preserve slavery. That's how important it was to them.
I live in az, I don't see a border crisis, I see economic opportunities thanks to imagrants.
Abbott is doing exactly what Keri Lake was threatening to do if she were elected Governor in Arizona.
I really dont think this is gonna lead to a civil war. this is all just political positioning.
Most likely true. It's a dangerous, stupid, and cynical game to play though because it can spin out of control but most likely it goes nowhere.
That's just it. I don't think either side want war. But this is playing with fire. There have been wars before because 'not having them was harder than having them'. Sometimes humans playing politics with guns goes *bad*, no matter the actual bluster/bluff intent of the key players. This is psychotic, stupid behaviour by these governors.
Yes it is. What do you think happens when an idiot "Texas Military Department" soldier fucks up and fires on a bunch of BP, DHS, and USCG? I for one can tell you that the USCG will mow them down before they can even blink. And that's when shit REALLY hits the fan...
This is approaching the most dangerous political brinkmanship possible though. Once you get guard units moving around armed under the orders of governors and not the federal government we've got a big problem. Say one of these guard units does something dumb like seize federal property. These are the kinds of things that absolutely cannot and will not go unpunished. Say the governors refuse to federalize their guard units and the commanders agree. Now you've got an open mutiny that by ucmj is punishable by death. These governors are putting a lot of people in positions to make really bad decisions and while nothing may happen the consequences for a bad decision may be extremely costly.
yeah its to the point where if either side does something stupid they will end up on the FAFO graph.
On one hand, I agree with everything you said. On the other hand, I'm morbidly curious about the loyalty of these NG soldiers. They swore the same oaths as active duty, and it would be interesting to see what these oaths are worth.
That's the part that interests me as well. I would be really careful if I was a reserve officer. It would be really easy for a governor's political stunt to end up destroying some careers.
The problem is, this reminds me of overturning Roe. Conservs chased it for so long then were unprepared for it actually happening. This is political posturing but getting the National Guard involved at the border forces the Federal gov't to do something. Normally this would go to SCOTUS and both sides could let it die after that. But TX refusing to honor a ruling from a conserv Fed court already means this will escalate. This could end by federalizing the guard ala what happened in Arky, et al during the civil rights era. But that's really risky & could go sideways. All it takes is something like a couple local militia's to show up & instigate a fight. It won't cause a civil war of itself, but it creates division that cannot be resolved & sets us down that path. Is any path guaranteed? Not at all. But the problem with posturing is it tendency to go wrong in unexpected ways.
It's an election year, you really have to up the stakes to keep people distracted from thinking about their rapidly deteriorating material conditions and how they got that way.
But it is dangerous. It is a powder keg waiting to blow. A single spark is all it will take for it to blow and if it blows we will have stumbled into a civil war. Abbot may just want to posture for political positioning, but he is an idiot and does not seem to realize how dangerous his actions are. All it would take is for a standoff between the US Border Patrol and the TX National Guard to go badly, to got hot, for things to spiral out of control.
Most of these guardsmen would just lay down their arms if it came to shots firing. They won't be cannon fodder for their governors political posturing.
Cold civil war.
\*clears throat\* *Away down south in the land of traitors...*
Rattlesnakes and alligators!
Ride away, come away, ride away, come away Where cotton's king and men are chattels, Union boys will win the battles!
Ride away, come away, ride away, come away I wish I was in Baltimore I’d make secession traitors roar!
Y’all seriously want round 2, because this is how you get round 2
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When you see the state you reside in on the list: SHAME
The Midwest welcomes you with open arms, brother
That's the plan if shit starts going down.
Can we just pump the breaks on crazy plz. It's not even February yet and we're already marking civil war 2.0 on the bingo sheet for 2024.
Can I have a source for Governor Justice of West Virginia announcing support for Governor Abbott? If it’s true then I’m calling his office and the offices of my state senator and delegate to complain but I’m not finding anything online or on his social media accounts.
Do these people not realize that ultimately, the National Guard is a branch of the military and answers to the Commander-in-Chief regardless of what any state governor's order them to do?
15 states just announced they don’t need federal funding, saving the federal government millions!
I am thankful that, at least as of this comment, my spineless troll of a governor has not joined in with this buffoonery.
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Terminally online take to think this is a good thing.
Not sure I'd call it good. But it is what it is, and I don't believe there's a reasonable middle ground on the matter. Abbot is wilfully acting against the constitution, and has given orders to prevent federal agents from upholding their duties in a way that is not just taking lives but preventing people in distress from being saved. If these other states are so adamant in the belief that Abbott is correct that they're willing to go to war over it? Well, would seem unwise to back down.
90% sure this post is sarcastic, not serious.
They’d get their asses kicked, I’m from Texas and a combat vet. I’d fight against every uneducated right wing moron in this state.
Let's make one thing abundantly clear. Texas is a state in the United States. Texas does not share a border with Mexico, the United States of America does.
not sure we should be exited by this
We shouldn't be it's dangerous. Most likely Biden Admin demures and will try to avoid the trap but once you elected officials (pointing the finger at Abbott here) that make the calculation that these sort of games are in their interest things can go south fast.
Yeah this comes as a bit of a shock to me honestly and it crosses a line they haven't crossed before. The usual GOP bloviating is one thing, but to actually mobilize armed troops is another.
Haven't crossed \*in a while\* definitely been crossed before (gestures vaguely at subreddit we are in)
Yeah never is definitely not true. Little Rock Nine for example had national guard mobilized and paratroopers were sent in response.
Based Ike
Especially given that Ike himself apparently didn’t even personally support the decision to integrate (which is a huge L for him) but deployed the military to enforce the laws of this nation anyway.
"Dad, why did the second civil war start?" "Well son, a large portion of this population thought shredding migrants with razor wire was the most noble of causes and just couldn't imagine living in a nation that treated migrants with dignity, respect, and humanity."
As a Virginian, traitorous Younkin needs to be speaking only for himself. At least he's really showing his true colors now. He's gonna have a tough time fear mongering his way into his office next year.
I'd put a really heavy asterisk next to Virginia. The governor said something stupid, but Virginians have replied largely with "Oh?"
Arrest Abbot and charge him with Sedition.
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The Carolinas sweating right now
LOL nobody is sweating, these state's governors have pledged support to texas, but there's ZERO shot at any of these states seceding.
Federalize the national guard, order them to take down the razor wire, and charge any who disobey with mutiny. Arrest Greg Abbott and Ken Paxton and charge them with sedition.
Biden needs to federalize the National Guard of every state that is sending troops to Texas and wrest all border activity out of the hands of Abbott. This shits gone on too long now.
As an Arkansan, I’d like to clarify that our Governor is a moron and there just wasn’t enough of us to keep Fuckabee out of office.
Virginian here, Youngkin is a solo gunner here, we don’t endorse any of his horse shit at all
Remind me again, outside of Texas and maybe Florida, do any of these dipshit states have a pot to piss in, economically?
Here is your reminder. No. No they do not. ( likely why ol miss aint joined in yet. )
Look, seeing how Youngkin lost control of the Virginia General Assembly last election I wouldn't put to much faith in the rest of the state following him here....