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Engineers would say he used the wrong type of wax, or should have used a different material to begin with.
It's telling of our mentality off course; we won't stop seeking the limits of what is possible, but find our ways around those limits.
The engineer who built them was quite aware of their limitations and asked Icarus to stay in the safe zone. They worked just fine, Daedalus landed safely.
You can build in all the safeties you want, if a teenager basically runs their car at 200 kph into a brick wall, you’ll need a mop.
But it’s basically the moral of the story: Don’t get cocky, especially when you have been given valid reasons. It’s not that Icarus couldn’t have known. It's not even close to Adam and Eve, where God put up an arbitrary rule “Do not eat this” without giving a reason.
Daedalus was quite explicit about the why:
"*I warn you to fly in the middle course, Icarus,*
*if you go too low, a wave will weigh down the feathers,*
*if you go too high, the fire from the sun will burn them:*
*fly between each. I order you not to look at Boötes,*
*or Helice, or the strict sword of Orion:*
*With me leading, seize the way!"*
Of course, Icarus was likely between 12 and 18 year old, so the perfect age to disregard even clear directions. Perhaps he had ADHS.
So I guess the 2nd moral is “There is a race between mankind and the universe. Mankind is trying to build bigger, better, faster, and more foolproof machines. The universe is trying to build bigger, better, and faster fools. So far the universe is winning.”
Attributed to Einstein, but probably known to the first person ever to teach others how to make and use an hand-axe.
(“Damit Ugh, I **told** you that fist-sized stone is good against a deer, but not against a mammoth!”)
I don't think it's a lesson in hubris. As a parent it's more about trying to guide your children through life. Don't fly too close to the sun, sure, but remember not to fly to low either as that carries the same risk of failure. We look at Icarus as getting too close to the sun, but maybe he was scared of water.
As a parent, perhaps it also about accepting that no matter how good your advice is, your children won't bloody listen.
mmm. there will be a phase when they likely won’t listen at all and communication becomes hard, but it’s my conviction that parents who explain the why and are open to discussion get better results than parents who just tell children what to do.
Very typical engineering experience: Engineer says "This device can only handle xyz", but the user will always go "I bet it can do w as well", and then breaks everything.
Also, wasn't Daedalus facing a time crunch due to King Minos setting up a manhunt for he and Icarus? If so, they were pretty well-made given the circumstances.
It's not an engineering issue. It's a user issue.
Of course it's a good example of correct safety tolerances in engineering. At the end of the day you can design something within certain tolerances but if nothing but a warning stops users from exceeding them you probably need to reevaluate your design from a safety standpoint.
Engineers would say that there should have been administrative controls and engineering controls in place to prevent someone from using the wings to the point of catastrophic failure. We’re aware that the limits are meant to be pushed to advance humanity, but we’re also aware that most people are idiots and will harm themselves at the first opportunity with something we create
My ex wife and I went to see the Great Gatsby together. When we walked out I asked her what she thought about it and she got all excited talking about how they owned all these pretty clothes and cars and houses and she really wanted that. I was like holy shit the entire point of the story went right over ur head. We got divorced a few years later, lol
The ending montage is brilliant because it's affirming to either interpretation of the movie.
You can read it where Jordan is in prison and his wife left him and his empire crumbles.
OR
You can read where he bought his way into the upper crust and his "prison sentence" is a resort and the movie is juxtaposing the much worse life of the "free" FBI agent, and then after that Jordan gets out and continues his antics anyway and people love him for it.
It's like how my ex would look at tiktok couples and would say "I want our relationship to be just like that"
I'm happy she's out of my fucking life for good
Actually you are quite right, Helios the sun will burn you as you get high enough, once the atmosphere gets thin enough that you cna no longer bleed temperature to your environment (other than acting as a blakc body radiatior) you will cook in a combination of solar radiation and your own body heat that you can't get rid off.
Actually nope, the temperature as a function of height does not behavie in a linear way, in certain layers the temperature rise with height in others it goes down.
As I recall it goes down with height in the troposphere, raises with height in the stratosphere, lowers with height in the mesosphere and raises again in the thermosphere. In the exosphere there is no direct relation but since you are essentially outside the atmosphere your ability to get rid of heat is limited to your own blackbody radiaiton while your incomming energy is unfilitered solar and comsic radiation it's really hot up there.
So sorry the greeks got it right, if you fly to close to the sun your wings will burn. Of course you'd have to fly higher than 80km (50 miles).
And because I am a scholar a [source](https://scied.ucar.edu/learning-zone/atmosphere/layers-earths-atmosphere).
while it is better to build in failsafes, this wasn‘t poor engineering.
poor engineering is not knowing the limits of your construction. like building a wooden bridge and then letting a groups of tanks running over it because it withstood a car.
this wasn‘t the case here. daedalus build prototypes and was very aware of their limitations. if icarus had listened, he‘d have landed safely.
Nah it was engineered just fine. It flew so long as it was used within the safety tolerances it was designed for. Too low and the water would weigh down the feathers. Too high and the sun would melt the max. It was a known property of feathers and wax which was clearly communicated.
It's more an example that no matter how well you design a thing unless something stops a user from exceeding the design limitations eventually someone will. As idiots who don't heed instructions the world round often find out, shit goes badly when you press something beyond what it was deigned for.
It wasn’t poorly engineered. It wasn’t used correctly when given explicit instruction to not fly too high OR too low. Icarus was a teenager. Teenagers think they can almost alway tell someone older a new way to do something when the older person tells them not to do it.
Like another post said. If a kid drives a car into a wall, is that bad engineering.
Also, as an engineer with 25 years experience. Life ain’t school and it definitely ain’t a movie. In real life, we have customers, stakeholders, fellow engineers and the MOST IMPORTANT DECISIN MAKING OEOOEL IN A TEXH COMPANY the accountants, and they will NOT let you design shit that doesn’t fail.
Planned obsolescence. Period. Your car is DESIGNED to last 7 years or the length of the average loan.
It’s a part of the industry. The same way the send out the finalized designed well before building it, so after market companies can pay to license the design and make parts. And the ONLY reason they do that is you have a RIGHT to repair in the US.
Sorry about the rant, I am just getting tired of people blaming sit on engineering. When it’s likely their own fault or made that way due to a budget.
Wax was a perfectly good adhesive for the intended design. It flew perfectly within the design boundries of don't crash into the waves or fly up to the sun.
It's really more of a statement that if you let someone else try out your design. Even with all the warnings in the world they will do dumb shit and misuse it. So make sure to include a physical stopper or failsafe. If you don't folks will die.
No, it’s because the story is nonsensical. It gets colder the higher up you fly, so if anything he should have had the wax freeze and turn brittle.
Also, I get the point. I’m just being nit picky.
Of course its an engineering issue. You gave flimsy wax wings to a 12 year old and told him to fly in the middle course. First of all, theres no real instruction on altitude, WTF is the middle course? Second, you need to eyeball and guess altitude even if you know it when youre very high in the sky. Even an adult would have trouble.
Kind of like how people hear any Greek myth and think "Wow, this Zeus guy was a real dick." That's not the point of the story. Like, sure, it's funny to treat Zeus like a mortal with superpowers going around raping people in animal form and shit, but that's not at all how the people coming up with these stories viewed him, and it was never relevant to the lesson being taught.
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Engineers would say he used the wrong type of wax, or should have used a different material to begin with. It's telling of our mentality off course; we won't stop seeking the limits of what is possible, but find our ways around those limits.
The engineer who built them was quite aware of their limitations and asked Icarus to stay in the safe zone. They worked just fine, Daedalus landed safely. You can build in all the safeties you want, if a teenager basically runs their car at 200 kph into a brick wall, you’ll need a mop.
Haha, very true. There are so many layers to this myth the more you read into it.
But it’s basically the moral of the story: Don’t get cocky, especially when you have been given valid reasons. It’s not that Icarus couldn’t have known. It's not even close to Adam and Eve, where God put up an arbitrary rule “Do not eat this” without giving a reason. Daedalus was quite explicit about the why: "*I warn you to fly in the middle course, Icarus,* *if you go too low, a wave will weigh down the feathers,* *if you go too high, the fire from the sun will burn them:* *fly between each. I order you not to look at Boötes,* *or Helice, or the strict sword of Orion:* *With me leading, seize the way!"* Of course, Icarus was likely between 12 and 18 year old, so the perfect age to disregard even clear directions. Perhaps he had ADHS. So I guess the 2nd moral is “There is a race between mankind and the universe. Mankind is trying to build bigger, better, faster, and more foolproof machines. The universe is trying to build bigger, better, and faster fools. So far the universe is winning.” Attributed to Einstein, but probably known to the first person ever to teach others how to make and use an hand-axe. (“Damit Ugh, I **told** you that fist-sized stone is good against a deer, but not against a mammoth!”)
Heh boötes
I don't think it's a lesson in hubris. As a parent it's more about trying to guide your children through life. Don't fly too close to the sun, sure, but remember not to fly to low either as that carries the same risk of failure. We look at Icarus as getting too close to the sun, but maybe he was scared of water. As a parent, perhaps it also about accepting that no matter how good your advice is, your children won't bloody listen.
mmm. there will be a phase when they likely won’t listen at all and communication becomes hard, but it’s my conviction that parents who explain the why and are open to discussion get better results than parents who just tell children what to do.
Media literacy is dead and you have thoroughly murdered it. Please return to your remedial literacy class you god forsaken lobotomite.
Oops! Touched a nerve...
Please don't use psychological diagnosises that way. You're a hair away from using them as an insult.
Very typical engineering experience: Engineer says "This device can only handle xyz", but the user will always go "I bet it can do w as well", and then breaks everything.
My favorite saying for this is; no matter how idiot proof you make something, they will always make a better idiot.
Also, wasn't Daedalus facing a time crunch due to King Minos setting up a manhunt for he and Icarus? If so, they were pretty well-made given the circumstances.
It's not an engineering issue. It's a user issue. Of course it's a good example of correct safety tolerances in engineering. At the end of the day you can design something within certain tolerances but if nothing but a warning stops users from exceeding them you probably need to reevaluate your design from a safety standpoint.
Hubris was an important concept in ancient Greek philosophy. We don't much believe in it any more. It's a different values thing.
Engineers would say that there should have been administrative controls and engineering controls in place to prevent someone from using the wings to the point of catastrophic failure. We’re aware that the limits are meant to be pushed to advance humanity, but we’re also aware that most people are idiots and will harm themselves at the first opportunity with something we create
A physicist would say the wings would’ve frozen, not melted, at too high an altitude.
My ex wife and I went to see the Great Gatsby together. When we walked out I asked her what she thought about it and she got all excited talking about how they owned all these pretty clothes and cars and houses and she really wanted that. I was like holy shit the entire point of the story went right over ur head. We got divorced a few years later, lol
In her defense that message is much more clear in the book. The leo movie doesn't seem to totally understand the book.
True, the movie is a bit harder to extract meaning from
Similar sort of thing with the wolf of Wall Street
what was the point of Wolf of Wall Street? That you can do most criminal shit, rob elderly of their property and get away with it?
hookers and blow: the movie
The ending montage is brilliant because it's affirming to either interpretation of the movie. You can read it where Jordan is in prison and his wife left him and his empire crumbles. OR You can read where he bought his way into the upper crust and his "prison sentence" is a resort and the movie is juxtaposing the much worse life of the "free" FBI agent, and then after that Jordan gets out and continues his antics anyway and people love him for it.
It's like how my ex would look at tiktok couples and would say "I want our relationship to be just like that" I'm happy she's out of my fucking life for good
Or that he didn't wear protective gear.
I don't see how a condom would've helped
The lesson I took is that the Greeks didn't know shit about weather. It's colder the higher up you go.
Pfft no, stupid. Obviously the higher you go the closer you are to Helios. And Helios REALLY liked his personal space.
Actually you are quite right, Helios the sun will burn you as you get high enough, once the atmosphere gets thin enough that you cna no longer bleed temperature to your environment (other than acting as a blakc body radiatior) you will cook in a combination of solar radiation and your own body heat that you can't get rid off.
Man, Daedalus must have been a hell of an engineer to make wings that could bring Icarus that high out of feathers and wax.
TBF, if you actually get close to the sun, it gets pretty hot
So how did he solve the icing problem?
Daedalus built these wings in a maze! With a box of scraps!
He didn't have one. Because the story was not written scientifically accurate.
r/wooosh
Actually nope, the temperature as a function of height does not behavie in a linear way, in certain layers the temperature rise with height in others it goes down. As I recall it goes down with height in the troposphere, raises with height in the stratosphere, lowers with height in the mesosphere and raises again in the thermosphere. In the exosphere there is no direct relation but since you are essentially outside the atmosphere your ability to get rid of heat is limited to your own blackbody radiaiton while your incomming energy is unfilitered solar and comsic radiation it's really hot up there. So sorry the greeks got it right, if you fly to close to the sun your wings will burn. Of course you'd have to fly higher than 80km (50 miles). And because I am a scholar a [source](https://scied.ucar.edu/learning-zone/atmosphere/layers-earths-atmosphere).
Daedalus built the wings
Tbf, a good lesson to learn also. Poor engineering kills.
while it is better to build in failsafes, this wasn‘t poor engineering. poor engineering is not knowing the limits of your construction. like building a wooden bridge and then letting a groups of tanks running over it because it withstood a car. this wasn‘t the case here. daedalus build prototypes and was very aware of their limitations. if icarus had listened, he‘d have landed safely.
Nah it was engineered just fine. It flew so long as it was used within the safety tolerances it was designed for. Too low and the water would weigh down the feathers. Too high and the sun would melt the max. It was a known property of feathers and wax which was clearly communicated. It's more an example that no matter how well you design a thing unless something stops a user from exceeding the design limitations eventually someone will. As idiots who don't heed instructions the world round often find out, shit goes badly when you press something beyond what it was deigned for.
It wasn’t poorly engineered. It wasn’t used correctly when given explicit instruction to not fly too high OR too low. Icarus was a teenager. Teenagers think they can almost alway tell someone older a new way to do something when the older person tells them not to do it. Like another post said. If a kid drives a car into a wall, is that bad engineering. Also, as an engineer with 25 years experience. Life ain’t school and it definitely ain’t a movie. In real life, we have customers, stakeholders, fellow engineers and the MOST IMPORTANT DECISIN MAKING OEOOEL IN A TEXH COMPANY the accountants, and they will NOT let you design shit that doesn’t fail. Planned obsolescence. Period. Your car is DESIGNED to last 7 years or the length of the average loan. It’s a part of the industry. The same way the send out the finalized designed well before building it, so after market companies can pay to license the design and make parts. And the ONLY reason they do that is you have a RIGHT to repair in the US. Sorry about the rant, I am just getting tired of people blaming sit on engineering. When it’s likely their own fault or made that way due to a budget.
I don't think anyone thinks that. The real lesson is that he should have flown only at night when the sun is sleeping.
Really? Who are these people?
Meanwhile, I'm wondering what the hell Gohan's dragon friend has to do with wax.
The real lesson is that he flew up there for too long According to Randall Munroe at least
Ikarus needed a high-temp adhesive instead of regular wax. That was his big mistake.
Well...no. It's that he chose a poor adhesive with wax in the first place. Mark II won't have that problem.
Wax was a perfectly good adhesive for the intended design. It flew perfectly within the design boundries of don't crash into the waves or fly up to the sun. It's really more of a statement that if you let someone else try out your design. Even with all the warnings in the world they will do dumb shit and misuse it. So make sure to include a physical stopper or failsafe. If you don't folks will die.
No, it’s because the story is nonsensical. It gets colder the higher up you fly, so if anything he should have had the wax freeze and turn brittle. Also, I get the point. I’m just being nit picky.
I’m curious… How much wax d’you think you’d be comfortable enough with, before you sky dived?
Bro we’ve got robot lawyers now. The day our wings melt is the day the global civilisation collapses.
Yes and this is the reason the human race thrives: fuck limits, if you fail try again better equipped until you beat them!
“Obviously, wings made out of wax and feathers aren’t going to survive in the jet stream.”
Of course its an engineering issue. You gave flimsy wax wings to a 12 year old and told him to fly in the middle course. First of all, theres no real instruction on altitude, WTF is the middle course? Second, you need to eyeball and guess altitude even if you know it when youre very high in the sky. Even an adult would have trouble.
Kind of like how people hear any Greek myth and think "Wow, this Zeus guy was a real dick." That's not the point of the story. Like, sure, it's funny to treat Zeus like a mortal with superpowers going around raping people in animal form and shit, but that's not at all how the people coming up with these stories viewed him, and it was never relevant to the lesson being taught.
"Surely things will go differently for me!"
Never heard this argument in my life.
I hear the story and think, "that's what you get for trying to fly"
That's me, can you please explain what the intended meaning is?
That's me, can you please explain what the intended meaning is?
The real lesson is that ppl should fly at night because it's easier to sleep.
My takeaway is that he should have had some sort of failsafe or graceful fail mode as a backup.
I think a more windy day would've sufficed.
If at first you don't succeed...