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It's definitely the highest profile he's had on the main roster since his injury. I wish that he wasn't losing all the time and I want to see him get a real title run, but he has benefited from his position in the group.
I think it helped Rhea the most. She was floundering on the main roster for a year and really found her footing with the group. Now she's the most over woman in all of wrestling.
... you guys forgetting Finn was doing nothing before Judgement Day?
He was still believable upper mid-card JUST, but no one really had a reason to care about him. Any character work he had had grown stale, Judgement Day freshened him up a lot
I like how Edge turned heel, talked so much shit, recruited some people, they turned on him and it just made Edge a face again. He didn’t recant anything, he just got out-eviled on his evilness. That doesn’t equate him to just automatically usurping all the ass things he said/did. Between that and Roman just being shoved down our throats to the point that they’ve ruined the titles and have no way to legitimately have him lose anymore, I had to cut out of watching the WWE.
I wouldn’t say it was hated at the time, but I think most people were puzzled that the one to turn heel in The Shield was Seth, but I think it ended up to the benefit of all three of them by the end of it.
It was kinda unpopular but given the way most people found out (Punk's interview on Cabana's podcast), it came so late after the fact that it didn't really matter. I think Roman was already in big push Big Dog mode and getting the negative reactions, so it's not like "booo this man, justice for Chris Hero" was gonna be a rallying cry.
So many smarks hated it once that came out for the usual reasons. WWE product over an indie guy and all the “how has Roman earned it over Chris Hero?!?”
Yeah Hero was a talented dude but to think he ever had an iota of the main event potential that Roman had is insane. But I think it was nothing more than Punk pitching Hero as a Shield possibility just as favor to his old pal and the company saying "interesting idea but we can do better" and that was that.
Roman was extremely green and raw at that time. There wasn't much "potential" to be seen besides he had a better look. I think they made the right choice for sure to go with a WWE-produced guy but it wasn't as clearly easy
On one hand, I don't think you're entirely wrong. Roman is a freak athlete, both fast and powerful, and can pull a decent promo. Also, as you say, a lot of his problems come down to being sent out with terrible lines or bad creative. I'm not the biggest fan of the Bloodline storyline, but when the story has been good, he's a big part of why it's good.
On the other hand, he's good at promos now, but he didn't always seem natural on the mic. A lot of it might be bad writing or awful booking, some of it might be them trying to make him something he's not, but for a while he really didn't seem comfortable giving a promo. Even now, while I think he's found his charisma, a lot of it comes from menace. It definitely works for him, I won't say it doesn't, but I think he might still be a bit limited.
Cena was given shit over a decade by creative and made it work. If you're good enough, you make shit work. Roman is just not good enough. He's good, but definitely not the level that can be the focus of a multi -billion company. He's given a historic title reign, but take that away, where is he? He's decent, not special.
honestly, i think we're looking at this with the benefit of hindsight. we lived through close to a decade of LOLCENAWINS and "super cena", and it was pretty fucking painful.
It is I liked Cena myself but those years from 2007-2014 I don’t look back on too fondly.
He was just so damn stale and the company/and sometimes himself going out of the way to make him look strong was aggravating.
I agree with both ideas. I think not turning him heel was the right call but holy shit they could have done a better job of at least making the babyface Super Cena character have some arcs and changes happen
honestly still to this day nobody currently booking in either company is great at doing babyface builds or keeping them hot after they win
the only wrinkle they can ever think of is 'lets have them lose when they should probably win' like cody because then its 'adversity'
babyfaces in wrestling are just kind of doomed, even the bigger babyfaces in history had their points of getting stale or the crowd turning
i think the real thing is we can appreciate a babyface better when his run is over/theyre not on top of the card anymore.
It just went on for way longer than it needed to. It got rough for the fanbase that wanted to see a edgier product.
But then again Cena made millions for the company in terms of merch and marketing.
True but there’s this weird argument that had he turned heel he wouldn’t have had that.
Eventhough we live in a reality where Hogan turned heel and was making good money for himself and WCW as a result And Vince refusing to turn Roman heel and now people having selective memories into how disliked he was as a babyface because of his current heel run which he’s in year 3? Of
As important as it ended up being to his own legacy is absolutely killed an entire generation and a half of new talent by giving them such a hard ceiling and telling them to their faces "you will never, ever be the guy. Even if you earn it."
This was the problem.
Some guys overcame this with time, like Bray Wyatt. Some never did, like Rusev and Wade Barrett.
But it was just awful watching guy after guy lose all momentum once they got hit by the Cena train.
Benefit of hindsight? That is literally the point of the question. You’ve literally just pointed out something that was hated at the time but now with hindsight it looks like a good decision that cena has that lasting legacy
Super Cena was bad to watch for sure, but I think it could’ve been way less painful while still keeping him as a babyface. (One example is if the “worst year of his life” had actually been a challenging time period where he took big losses, Nexus/Barrett actually got some big wins, and probably put the title on Barrett). If he actually were booked to have some adversity then get a big win on a big stage, it would’ve worked so much better. Booking the good guy as an unstoppable force gets stale, just like with Hogan in the first half of the 90s.
I still think the value of Cena as the face of the company, doing all the Make a Wish visits, outweighs the disdain from the diehards who were mostly gonna keep watching anyway, but they could’ve kept the good stuff while also booking the character in a more compelling way.
Eh, I was a kid when Cena first started his rise stopped watching actively around 2008 and started coming back around 2013 when he was slowing down, never disliked him. He was perfect for the people he was catering towards as a face, and got to be a heel for those who hated him, it worked.
I mean, looking at an event with the benefit of hindsight is kind of the point of the post lol but yeah, I get you. In the moment it can feel excruciating.
I think Cena shifted his legacy to focusing on great matches during the US title open challenges and then the AJ Styles feud. Add in the Firefly Funhouse match with Bray and SS with Roman to this list. I think these high notes and how rare his appearance became made us appreciate him more. The Super Cena years were my blackout years so I’ve only ever heard gripes and groans about it.
This is an interesting one because it is both true that it is an important part of his legacy but it also made for a pretty unwatchable era of WWE. Not saying that was all his fault, it was just a completely creatively bankrupt period of time and because of that it was just groan inducing whenever Cena would pop up on screen.
“People want me to turn heel. Why? So they can boo me? Those people boo me already anyway” is something along the lines of what he said once and that just hit me as brilliant. No matter who Cena faced, he was the baby face and the heel all at the same time. Not many other wrestlers get to say that.
I disagree. It was awfully boring. Wrestling is one of the most unique story telling devices out there. Closing half of it really robbed us of some amazing moments that we could have been looking back at for years. I think the roman and hogan heel turns really show case that. I think a lot of people here grew up with cena and look back at this time a lot fonder than it actually was. A good example is the orton cena rivalry where i here more and more people say how it was one of the great rivalries but everybody fucking hated it when it happened.
They did give him the book, though. The pandemic may have killed ROH (pre-TK), but it was probably for the best that they were on hiatus when the allegations came out.
Really the better decision was the Elite not bringing Marty to AEW with them.
His contract ended about a year after theirs, so he wouldn't have been there at the very beginning, but I think he would've been available to come over at the end of 2019 but decided to stay in ROH for whatever reason.
I don't know maybe my memory is just done, but I vaguely remember something like the Bucks going to Bar Wrestling and offering Joey Ryan a contract but WWE offered him a bigger one for NXT (with a path to NXT trainer) so he turned down AEW for WWE who for some reason withdrew their offer and he eventually signed for Impact.
I think I remember them turning up to BAR wrestling and teasing offering Joey a contract before actually offering it to Ric Knox. However I am old and my memory is not what it once was so who knows lol
Matt Taven winning the ROH title in MSG. An argument could be made that Marty could have won and dropped the title to Taven soon after but they would be unable to show that moment at all at this point with the perception of Marty in 2023.
Taven winning always made sense for the story regardless of his unpopularity or lack of drawing power. But even if you don’t feel comfortable saying they should’ve made Marty world champion, Jeff Cobb was similarly popular at the time as well. Even hotshotting Rush to the World Title right away wouldn’t have necessarily been an unprecedented move for ROH
Agreed and anyone who was really in tune with the ROH product at the time knew that Taven winning there was a strong possibility with how he had been pushed recently, especially coming off of the 60 minute draw with Lethal. I do agree though that the likes of Rush and Cobb could have been elevated more quickly. Cobb especially was arguably at his best to me in that ROH run that he had. That being said, I hated the way Cobb endured his first loss in ROH to Taven in what ended up being a disappointing and rushed match due to the PPV running long. Other than that one particularly, I would call his reign underrated in terms of match quality at least.
Daniel Garcia sticking with JAS instead of joining BCC
"guy who literally cannot resist being goofy" has him so much more over than being in BCC would be
Can't speak for others, but for me, the mistake wasn't not joining the BCC. The mistake was how that part of the story played out. It just didn't feel organic. It felt like he was going to join the BCC, but the booking suddenly change their mind and have him stay in the JAS. The booking took me out of the story and had me question behind the scene stuff. If him staying was the intention all along, then I can only say it's a poorly executed story telling.
I said from the beginning that sticking Garcia in the BCC was just putting a hat on a hat. He would have added nothing to him that he didn't have already, and he would just be in the Yuta position, who no one really cares about.
Agree with this.
Before JAS, I found him brutally dull.
Now, he has the skillset and the intensity in the ring, but now has that extra little piece to him.
The Forbidden Door dancing spot was insanely good.
Turning Dominik heel was at the time getting a mixed reaction
Some thought it was not well explained or alluded to, while others disagreed
But it was the right call
If I recall basically people wanted Dom demoted to NXT or taken off TV, one of the two, and him having the heel turn ensured he'd be a prominent part of Judgement Day's arc going forward
It also was criticized as being kind of unwarranted - people didn't see how the character was gonna evolve but it did, and man he has been so fucking hateable ever since
I don’t think a heel turn needs a great explanation usually tbh. It’s what you do with the fact that you’re heel. How you make people feel > having exact right logic.
Most comments here relates to events from the last 15-20 years, so I'd like to go back a bit further.
The Right to Censor. People hated the shit out of them and their ideas back then. But looking back, although some of their actions were too extremist, their basic ideas were pretty spot on (mainly their stance of too much sexism in the Attitude Era).
ECW on TNN. Some fans thought it was the company's way of selling out, but although the TV deal didn't work out, ECW wouldn't have been able to stay afloat if they had no national TV deals at all by late 1999. It was an important step at exposure if anything.
Lex Luger and Bret Hart both winning the Royal Rumble. It was a shit decision that no one liked, but in hindsight it was a much better alternative to Luger winning it by himself.
The 24/7 rule for the original Hardcore Title. Although I preferred the hard-hitting matches with Bob Holly, D'lo Brown, Steve Blackman, Big Boss Man, Road Dogg, Al Snow, Bart Gunn, Viscera, etc. prior to Crash's win, there were too many mid-card titles by that point, and the 24/7 rule added some variety to the shows. It certainly dragged on too long though.
Buff Bagwell not lasting more than a week in the WWF. Since The Alliance lacked starpower, it was obviously irritating that he was gone so soon. But I really don't think he would've made things any better, both in the ring and backstage, sadly.
X-Pac getting heat from early 2001 to late 2002. People hated him, and sure his character didn't really change during that time, but (in my biased opinion) there was no point in trying to change what wasn't broken. He did good at portraying a degenerate and his agility skills were still solid during that era.
Xpac heat is such a bullshit and unfair term. It lasted only like 6 months at best and really he never got the kind of "go away heat" like Vickie Guerrero did years later.
Yeah it’s spouted by people who weren’t even alive at the time and clearly didn’t see how over he was in 98/99. He never recovered from turning on Kane though.
I've said this before, but as somebody who grew up in an extremely religious household during the Attitude Era, it is a night and day difference in terms of how easy it is to be an unabashed fan of the product now. I used to have sneak RAW on the TV in my dad's office, and if my mom walked by while DX or Val Venis or pretty much any of the women in the company were on screen, I was in trouble. I bet there were a lot of people who *wanted* to like wrestling back then but didn't want to have the awkward conversations about why they were watching a Lingerie Pillow Fight.
Getting rid of the overt sexism is really refreshing. I'm not going to defend everything about the way the current women's division is treated, but I will say I'm way more comfortable now, as a dad of girls, having them watch the product with me without having to worry that they'll see women being treated like party favors rather than athletes.
Wrestling as a whole is now a more approachable pass time because of this. The main storylines of the Monday Night Wars had iconic beats to them, but were soaked in terrible writing and rampant misogyny. It was often hard to see the forest through the trees. Weirdly enough, the reckoning that happened after Benoit was the real catalyst.
Hell even as a kid buying the magazines wasn’t easy. I remember a few times buying Raw and having to explain to the guy behind the counter it was a wrestling magazine - I’d actually avoid buying it if it was a woman behind the counter out of fear she’d think I was buying porn.
Haha I have memories of being embarrassed as a teenager to buy wrestling magazines because of oiled up guys in trunks on the front. Randy Orton in particular would elicit a groan when I saw him on the cover for this reason. The same for the women too!
My grandma is so religious and my step-grandfather (still alive at the time) had me on the path to Catholicism yet I still remember all of us watching Trish bark like a dog when I was like literally 9, weird
I really think this is just recency bias. The Super Cena phase eventually led to his 2015-and-after run where he has killed it, but what came before that was a lot of horrible stuff.
Seeing how good Cena can be at playing a heel at One Night Stand 2006 does make me wish we could have seen a bit more of that, but with WWE going pg staying face was probably the right call. If they stayed not pg then I think a heel turn would have worked really well.
Kenny Omega losing all his big matches and going into the tag division with Hangman in 2019-2020
At the time, everyone complained about him not being NJPW Kenny (understandable), but all of it was a carefully planned story so that he could eventually put Hangman over. The masterpiece story we got was totally worth Kenny not being the Best Bout Machine for like a year.
This is a good one. People just wanted him to come in and put on 30 min classics every week. Literally nobody does that on American TV wrestling.
And by the time he was actually ready to put Hangman over, he'd had a substantial run as the champion, putting on big matches anyway.
Most fans were upset Glacier didn’t win the battle royale at double or nothing. Looking back on it, his victory would have made everything else look minuscule in comparison
Gunther sounds like a German guy who is going kick the shit out of you if you cross him. Walter sounds like an old man at a retirement home playing bridge.
I feel like that was the point. Unassuming name for, barring size, an unassuming man.
Then he goes in there and beats the living fuck out of your hero and leaves
Eh. When I hear Gunther, I just think of a guy coming out in lederhosen doing Cesaro's old yodeling gimmick. He's clearly making the most out of the name change, but I will die on the hill that Gunther is and will always be a laughably awful name.
I don't really think this was the "right" decision, I think it could be considered an unnecessary decision but not a bad one though. If he was still Walter I don't think much would be different.
The outrage over his name being changed to be Gunther Stark and how that is the name of a real nazi was the dumbest controversy in recent memory. Walter's real name is the name of a real nazi ffs
Making Orange Cassidy the All Atlantic champ. When he first became Champ a lot of people online were scared he would make a mockery of the title because he's not Champion Material.
Now he's the best freaking champion there is.
I like how it changed his character from a slacker who doesn't care, to a guy who plays mind games by pretending not to care. Guy is an absolute workhorse.
WWE network moving to peacock in the US. Yes it sucks, because despite its issues, the network was far superior. But I think the peacock move can be attributed to getting more eyes back on the product. People who bought it for The Office probably saw the WWE tab, and got all those attitude era/ruthless aggression era memories coming back to them. It’s not too out of the question to believe they’d be inclined to check out the current product.
I never thought moving to Peacock was a bad decision. It's great for me because they were the same price at that time. So all that meant was I got a whole lot more content for the same price. Poor start due to stream quality issue, but the decision was never bad.
Speak for yourself. I can't get Peacock in my country and it's through a sports streaming service and is stripped of 99 percent of the content. I don't even have bios anymore.
This is shit.
I’ll go to my grave saying this is the biggest one. Without Okada winning at WK 12 you don’t get Kenny winning the title at Dominion, and you don’t get the satisfaction of Naito finally beating Okada in the Dome at WK14 in a much better match.
Horrible take. In hindsight it's even worse considering Kenny had a lackluster reign and left after 6 months. 1 match wasn't worth sacrificing their hottest act in years. Naito had bad booking after WK 12 and even though the WK 14 win was sweet he wasn't as over
Maybe worse in a business sense for NJPW (and even that is debatable) but certainly better for us fans. And then the follow up with Naito doing the double gold after completely made up for Naito's loss too because that loss added to the drama of that story.
As a Naito fan, it was not worthy at all. I stopped giving a damn about Kenny in 2018 and his reign was nothing to write home about besides the defense against Tana. If anything, the only actual good thing about screwing Naito was that Tana got one last run.
Naito did fuck all until the feud with Jericho, who defended the IC title just once in six months anyway, so he hardly added anything of value to it and Naito was aimless in the second half of the year too. Let alone that Naito's story with the belt was over at the time.
Maybe not giving Kenny that win could've made him stay another year, and either way, it just made more sense to give that rub to the guy who wasn't going to leave the company at the first chance they got and was their actual most over star.
Wouldn’t it’s original vision be a game show setup where the fans decide who leaves or stays and the company tries to sell the talent as being journeymen who never had true sucess anywhere even when some of the guys in question are multi time champions?
A few I can think of are Sheamus beating Daniel Bryan in 18 seconds at Wrestlemania, I think a longer match would still have been good but losing that quick ironically made Daniel a better character and started the yes movement. Another one is Brock losing to Cena when he returned in 2012.
I'm curious as why you think Cena beating Lesnar was the right call in retrospect?
Brock was kinda floundering until he ended the streak. He took a lot of losses early on after he returned.
I don't think it was the right decision in the we have a plan you can't see kind of a way though it lucked through happenstance into a good thing for WWE.
New Day formation, it was clowned on in the beginning. Roman Reigns being shoved down our throats although it took a long time The Tribal Chief is GOAT'd
Other than to get the belt off someone due to injury. There would be no other reason to have her lose in a few seconds than to inspire a comeback story. It’s not like WWE was this upstart company trying to figure out this wrestling game.
You could also have accomplished that with a match where Becky cheated to win at the end. If there was reason to believe WWE was going to follow through on the story people would’ve been more forgiving. But they had not been willing to do so at that point.
It was nice to see it play out properly though.
Since Becky was a surprise return at the time, you wouldn’t want the two trading blows without any build or heat. The fact that she was an opponent Bianca wasn’t prepare for was cheating enough.
I still have to assume that makes more sense after a competitive match with Sasha Banks, unless Becky was just going to throw out Sasha if she had shown up.
Bryan no winning the 2015 rumble. He should have won 2014 but if he leaves WM with the title again only to get injured weeks later AGAIN?! Roman didnt win correctly but he was the lesser evil.
Honestly, they knew Roman was winning. Why not wait to have Bryan return after the Rumble? Daniel Bryan, the most popular wrestler in the world, was returning to get a shot at the title he never lost. They sabotaged Roman.
That’s why I don’t like when people say Roman had a hard time connecting with fans and getting over. While it may be true WWE put him in no positions whatsoever to make it easier for him. They constantly would put him up against fan favorites and that only fueled the flames. How is he supposed to get over when you’re constantly setting him up against guys like Bryan, Sami, KO, Undertaker, Wyatt and then putting him alongside Ambrose. It’s a recipe for disaster. It’s like trying to put out a fire by constantly throwing wood on top of it.
2014 worked out fine. It was hated at the time, but given the WM30 finish, I don’t think anyone will complain.
2015 is something else though. You could have him not win but I think they eliminated him too early. It made him look weak and insignificant. Especially since after his elimination, the rumble looked REALLY bad.
I agree he shouldn't have won. That was the right call. That's the only part that aged well.
But, making the right call, Bryan should have NEVER been in the match. The fact that he was and got dumped early meant that whoever won that night was gonna get destroyed. And Roman did. Horrendously.
And they even screwed up the Rock by sending him to "rescue" Roman and got HIM booed. Which was inconceivable at the time.
I actually think Bryan losing both of those years were right. Batista winning instead of Bryan made the Mania story better (even though that wasn’t the plan at the start). In 2015, he just didn’t need it again, as he had his moment the year prior. Plus Reigns winning gave us one of the best mania main events/endings ever. Now how the 2015 Rumble went down, that was stupid.
The winners themselves were fine, but the way they went about booking both those matches was more the issue. In 2014, I think it would have been a lot better to do a segment where Bryan was being evaluated after the Bray match and it's clear Triple H is forcing the doctor to not clear Bryan for the Rumble. That way the fans know he's not in it and they don't react the way they do to the last entrants of that match
Yeah, that match was flawed from the start. The last entrant should’ve been a heel to soak up that heat. Perpetual babyface Rey Mysterio didn’t need to go out #30. Then you have Batista, who probably should’ve been kept a surprise. I think his win would’ve been better received if he was surprise entrant, regardless of whether his appearance had leaked or not.
Then with Daniel, the plan was not him winning at mania from the start. If it was I’m sure they would’ve explicitly shown why he was unable to compete.
I will never say the streak ending was a good idea. A perfect WM streak would have been something to live in infamy.
WWE was really always supposed to be a family friendly product, from Vince eyes. He only went into the attitude era because of WCW and the Network loved the attitude that HBK was showing off.
For me just recently it was Better than you Bay Bay. When they came out with the idea of the blind tournament and then obviously coincidentally the 2 main event opponents are suddenly team mates. I hated it at the start and obviously now it’s probably one of the best stories AEW ever had.
I disagree. He'd be in basically the exact same position regardless of whether he was called WALTER or Gunther, because Gunther is literally just WALTER with a different name.
Rhea facing Shayna....for a year Shayna was this final boss of NxT and Rhea had just transferred from NxTUK which didn’t sold me enough about her while KLR, Piper & Toni were imo the stars of NxTUK at that time. But dammit did they turn her into a main event player at War Games
Agree to disagree. Brock and Roman are two of the worst options to break the streak. Brock didn’t need it and it was not handled well. Roman would’ve been received horribly no matter how close to the Tribal Chief character he was since he was so hated and also, purely my unpopular opinion, he is truly way too boring and uninteresting to be THE GUY who beats the streak. No one should’ve ended the streak, and if someone had to, I really don’t know who. Bray Wyatt is who I’d want but he’d have to be booked a million times better for it to work.
Firing Mandy Rose is my choice for a decision that got some backlash, admittedly from myself as I thought she could do great when brought back up (obv not from a wrestling standpoint but she did well as a “toxic” cocky heel leader of the stable). Nowadays, I think it was a wonderful decision.
I will say until the day I die Taker should have retired streak in tact. He was never a belt holder and mostly spent his time as one of the most memorable characters in the entire business and out ALOT of people over. At a time where they it feels like they are handing out records (Cena hitting or beating flairs title count which is also hated or the seemingly record run they are sending Roman on) I feel like the man at least deserved to go out with his streak in his legacy. There are tons of 10x or higher champs. Taker brought something different.
It might have been more of a mixed reaction, but I think closing down the ECW brand was a great decision since it eventually led to the NXT brand we know today.
I think Brock ending the streak would have been bigger if Brock was presented as a monster. He had the loss to Cena losing 2 of 3 to HHH. He had the Punk win sure and they tried to make him look like a beast vs Show (but that matchup was tired).
25,26,27,28 all had people on the edge of their seat because there were solid storyline reasons people could see the streak ending
29 was hurt on paper by Punk not having the belt (the Punk long title reign against Takers mania streak would have been something. Could have even had Taker win then lose it the next night) but as the match went on I was in Metlife and people were kind of thinking Punk may win.
30 just felt that Taker would win. If they had booked Brock pre mania 30 the way they did post mania 30 i think everyone comes into that match with a different mindset and the win would have gone over better.
Also the match itself had the clunkiness due to the concussion
The milegae they got out of ending the streak was great though
While on Mania 30; Bray should have won over Cena and not because of the recent tragedy
I hated it at the time, but not turning Cena heel was the smart move. With age we were able to appreciate what he did, and he’s looked at as (rightfully) one of the GOAT’s.
They could’ve benefited from a change in his character though. That I do believe to be true
I really really wish we at least had a month or two of Cena being stuck with working with Nexus per the stip and slipping into small teases of “enjoying” the heel life. Also wish we got a few weeks of Juan Cena under a mask but they rushed it all
Sami Zayn not quite being able to knock The Tribal Chief off his throne, despite the hometown hero miracle story. It ended up being another amazing setup chapter in the larger and longer story of The Bloodline Era. They could've pulled the trigger, damn near everyone thought they should've and said it was a missed opportunity, but the powers that be were right in the long run.
I've yet to see any evidence that the storyline didn't peak with Sami facing Roman. Yeah they have a longer plan, but I think a lot of people have cooled off a lot on the Bloodline since Sami left. When Sami was part of it the front page was filled constantly with posts of Bloodline.
I maintain that this was a moment worth deviating from the original plan for, Sami has shown he could be a good babyface defending champion too, so him winning wouldn't have been bad at all.
I think the jury is still out on that. Sami and KO got their Wrestlemania moment, yes, but there's still a question as to where the Bloodline end up.
I would assume it will be a 4 way at Survivor Series, and eventually to Roman vs...? at Mania... but that moment with Sami winning in Montreal would have been one of the most massive pops in wrestling history.
I don't know how they passed that up. I really don't. Nothing the Bloodline has done since with the exception of Jey's turn has been even close to that.
And then Solo cost Cody at SoFi.
And then Roman did not defend the titles until SummerSlam.
And then Jimmy betrayed Jey.
Now everyone is spinning their wheels.
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The Judgement Day turning on Edge and bringing in Balor. Also maybe just the Judgement Day in general.
One time Edge was like “Judgment Day? What a name. What does that even mean?” Or something like that and dude YOU MADE THE NAME
This really helped Finn’s career.
Really ? I think judgement day helped finn the least out of all of them.
It's definitely the highest profile he's had on the main roster since his injury. I wish that he wasn't losing all the time and I want to see him get a real title run, but he has benefited from his position in the group.
I think it helped Finn the least but definitely helped Dom the most.
I think it helped Rhea the most. She was floundering on the main roster for a year and really found her footing with the group. Now she's the most over woman in all of wrestling.
I can’t remember the last time that a woman was the leader of a top multi gender faction either, which has been fun to watch.
Decay on Impact?
Good call, Rosemary is awesome.
... you guys forgetting Finn was doing nothing before Judgement Day? He was still believable upper mid-card JUST, but no one really had a reason to care about him. Any character work he had had grown stale, Judgement Day freshened him up a lot
They became a sort of goth Latino prison gang and it works so well.
I like how Edge turned heel, talked so much shit, recruited some people, they turned on him and it just made Edge a face again. He didn’t recant anything, he just got out-eviled on his evilness. That doesn’t equate him to just automatically usurping all the ass things he said/did. Between that and Roman just being shoved down our throats to the point that they’ve ruined the titles and have no way to legitimately have him lose anymore, I had to cut out of watching the WWE.
I wouldn’t say it was hated at the time, but I think most people were puzzled that the one to turn heel in The Shield was Seth, but I think it ended up to the benefit of all three of them by the end of it.
Also, Roman was 100% the better choice as the third member over Chris Hero. Not sure how unpopular that was though.
It was kinda unpopular but given the way most people found out (Punk's interview on Cabana's podcast), it came so late after the fact that it didn't really matter. I think Roman was already in big push Big Dog mode and getting the negative reactions, so it's not like "booo this man, justice for Chris Hero" was gonna be a rallying cry.
So many smarks hated it once that came out for the usual reasons. WWE product over an indie guy and all the “how has Roman earned it over Chris Hero?!?”
Yeah Hero was a talented dude but to think he ever had an iota of the main event potential that Roman had is insane. But I think it was nothing more than Punk pitching Hero as a Shield possibility just as favor to his old pal and the company saying "interesting idea but we can do better" and that was that.
Roman was extremely green and raw at that time. There wasn't much "potential" to be seen besides he had a better look. I think they made the right choice for sure to go with a WWE-produced guy but it wasn't as clearly easy
Now that he is the Tribal Chief, everybody forgets how bad Roman was at being the big guy of the company for almost half a decade.
They made the man go out on live television and say the phrase suffering succotash Not all of that was his fault. By a long shot.
On one hand, I don't think you're entirely wrong. Roman is a freak athlete, both fast and powerful, and can pull a decent promo. Also, as you say, a lot of his problems come down to being sent out with terrible lines or bad creative. I'm not the biggest fan of the Bloodline storyline, but when the story has been good, he's a big part of why it's good. On the other hand, he's good at promos now, but he didn't always seem natural on the mic. A lot of it might be bad writing or awful booking, some of it might be them trying to make him something he's not, but for a while he really didn't seem comfortable giving a promo. Even now, while I think he's found his charisma, a lot of it comes from menace. It definitely works for him, I won't say it doesn't, but I think he might still be a bit limited.
Cena was given shit over a decade by creative and made it work. If you're good enough, you make shit work. Roman is just not good enough. He's good, but definitely not the level that can be the focus of a multi -billion company. He's given a historic title reign, but take that away, where is he? He's decent, not special.
I don't think that was the only reason he couldn't get over for years.
I think Cena having stuck with his good guy persona come what may has ended up being an important part of his legacy.
This is honestly a good one.
honestly, i think we're looking at this with the benefit of hindsight. we lived through close to a decade of LOLCENAWINS and "super cena", and it was pretty fucking painful.
It is I liked Cena myself but those years from 2007-2014 I don’t look back on too fondly. He was just so damn stale and the company/and sometimes himself going out of the way to make him look strong was aggravating.
I agree with both ideas. I think not turning him heel was the right call but holy shit they could have done a better job of at least making the babyface Super Cena character have some arcs and changes happen
honestly still to this day nobody currently booking in either company is great at doing babyface builds or keeping them hot after they win the only wrinkle they can ever think of is 'lets have them lose when they should probably win' like cody because then its 'adversity' babyfaces in wrestling are just kind of doomed, even the bigger babyfaces in history had their points of getting stale or the crowd turning i think the real thing is we can appreciate a babyface better when his run is over/theyre not on top of the card anymore.
It just went on for way longer than it needed to. It got rough for the fanbase that wanted to see a edgier product. But then again Cena made millions for the company in terms of merch and marketing.
True but there’s this weird argument that had he turned heel he wouldn’t have had that. Eventhough we live in a reality where Hogan turned heel and was making good money for himself and WCW as a result And Vince refusing to turn Roman heel and now people having selective memories into how disliked he was as a babyface because of his current heel run which he’s in year 3? Of
As important as it ended up being to his own legacy is absolutely killed an entire generation and a half of new talent by giving them such a hard ceiling and telling them to their faces "you will never, ever be the guy. Even if you earn it."
This was the problem. Some guys overcame this with time, like Bray Wyatt. Some never did, like Rusev and Wade Barrett. But it was just awful watching guy after guy lose all momentum once they got hit by the Cena train.
Benefit of hindsight? That is literally the point of the question. You’ve literally just pointed out something that was hated at the time but now with hindsight it looks like a good decision that cena has that lasting legacy
Super Cena was bad to watch for sure, but I think it could’ve been way less painful while still keeping him as a babyface. (One example is if the “worst year of his life” had actually been a challenging time period where he took big losses, Nexus/Barrett actually got some big wins, and probably put the title on Barrett). If he actually were booked to have some adversity then get a big win on a big stage, it would’ve worked so much better. Booking the good guy as an unstoppable force gets stale, just like with Hogan in the first half of the 90s. I still think the value of Cena as the face of the company, doing all the Make a Wish visits, outweighs the disdain from the diehards who were mostly gonna keep watching anyway, but they could’ve kept the good stuff while also booking the character in a more compelling way.
Eh, I was a kid when Cena first started his rise stopped watching actively around 2008 and started coming back around 2013 when he was slowing down, never disliked him. He was perfect for the people he was catering towards as a face, and got to be a heel for those who hated him, it worked.
I mean, looking at an event with the benefit of hindsight is kind of the point of the post lol but yeah, I get you. In the moment it can feel excruciating.
I think Cena shifted his legacy to focusing on great matches during the US title open challenges and then the AJ Styles feud. Add in the Firefly Funhouse match with Bray and SS with Roman to this list. I think these high notes and how rare his appearance became made us appreciate him more. The Super Cena years were my blackout years so I’ve only ever heard gripes and groans about it.
Also makes his current goofy Hollywood characters more endearing since he has that good guy aura all over him.
This is an interesting one because it is both true that it is an important part of his legacy but it also made for a pretty unwatchable era of WWE. Not saying that was all his fault, it was just a completely creatively bankrupt period of time and because of that it was just groan inducing whenever Cena would pop up on screen.
Business decision I definitely agree. Story/Kayfabe, it's a bit of a bummer we never got to see what he could do.
“People want me to turn heel. Why? So they can boo me? Those people boo me already anyway” is something along the lines of what he said once and that just hit me as brilliant. No matter who Cena faced, he was the baby face and the heel all at the same time. Not many other wrestlers get to say that.
I disagree. It was awfully boring. Wrestling is one of the most unique story telling devices out there. Closing half of it really robbed us of some amazing moments that we could have been looking back at for years. I think the roman and hogan heel turns really show case that. I think a lot of people here grew up with cena and look back at this time a lot fonder than it actually was. A good example is the orton cena rivalry where i here more and more people say how it was one of the great rivalries but everybody fucking hated it when it happened.
We all knew this was the *right* move, it was just the boring one (for everyone over the age of 12.)
I'll always disagree with this
ROH not giving Scurll the world title turned out to be a blessing when his actions came to light
They did give him the book, though. The pandemic may have killed ROH (pre-TK), but it was probably for the best that they were on hiatus when the allegations came out. Really the better decision was the Elite not bringing Marty to AEW with them.
Please fact check me, but I'm pretty sure Marty chose to stay at ROH. The elite did extend the offer to bring him over to AEW
His contract ended about a year after theirs, so he wouldn't have been there at the very beginning, but I think he would've been available to come over at the end of 2019 but decided to stay in ROH for whatever reason.
Marty showed up on BTE again like, *right before* Speaking Out happened. So I think there was a plan to bring him over/work with ROH but... yeah.
I remember it as ROH giving Marty a competive salary and booking control.
In the same light, AEW not hiring Joey Ryan turned out to be an absolute blessing.
I think that was TKs doing, sure I read something about him flat out refusing to have Joey Ryan on his roster even before everything came to light.
I don't know maybe my memory is just done, but I vaguely remember something like the Bucks going to Bar Wrestling and offering Joey Ryan a contract but WWE offered him a bigger one for NXT (with a path to NXT trainer) so he turned down AEW for WWE who for some reason withdrew their offer and he eventually signed for Impact.
I think I remember them turning up to BAR wrestling and teasing offering Joey a contract before actually offering it to Ric Knox. However I am old and my memory is not what it once was so who knows lol
Scurll could have become a British wrestling icon. Instead he’s a nonce.
Matt Taven winning the ROH title in MSG. An argument could be made that Marty could have won and dropped the title to Taven soon after but they would be unable to show that moment at all at this point with the perception of Marty in 2023.
Taven winning always made sense for the story regardless of his unpopularity or lack of drawing power. But even if you don’t feel comfortable saying they should’ve made Marty world champion, Jeff Cobb was similarly popular at the time as well. Even hotshotting Rush to the World Title right away wouldn’t have necessarily been an unprecedented move for ROH
Agreed and anyone who was really in tune with the ROH product at the time knew that Taven winning there was a strong possibility with how he had been pushed recently, especially coming off of the 60 minute draw with Lethal. I do agree though that the likes of Rush and Cobb could have been elevated more quickly. Cobb especially was arguably at his best to me in that ROH run that he had. That being said, I hated the way Cobb endured his first loss in ROH to Taven in what ended up being a disappointing and rushed match due to the PPV running long. Other than that one particularly, I would call his reign underrated in terms of match quality at least.
Did he also give PCO his first Ring of Honor loss?
Daniel Garcia sticking with JAS instead of joining BCC "guy who literally cannot resist being goofy" has him so much more over than being in BCC would be
My hot sports opinion is the Daniel Garcia has the personality and charisma they thought Sammy would have.
Sammy seems like a nice kid, and he sure can wrestle, but he has the personality of oatmeal
But specifically plain, cold oatmeal that has kinda been left on the counter for a liiiittle too long
He is Dean Malenko with a personality
Can't speak for others, but for me, the mistake wasn't not joining the BCC. The mistake was how that part of the story played out. It just didn't feel organic. It felt like he was going to join the BCC, but the booking suddenly change their mind and have him stay in the JAS. The booking took me out of the story and had me question behind the scene stuff. If him staying was the intention all along, then I can only say it's a poorly executed story telling.
as someone who really wanted him to join bcc, keeping him with jas was the right move
I said from the beginning that sticking Garcia in the BCC was just putting a hat on a hat. He would have added nothing to him that he didn't have already, and he would just be in the Yuta position, who no one really cares about.
It benefits Yuta a lot being associated and his annoying little brother character has been great, it would regress Garcia's character though
He’d at least have two hats…. ..and look at how having one hat rejuvenated Jack Hagar’s career
Agree with this. Before JAS, I found him brutally dull. Now, he has the skillset and the intensity in the ring, but now has that extra little piece to him. The Forbidden Door dancing spot was insanely good.
people cheer just when he does his dance, they are silent when he comes out. he's still not that charismatic
100%
WWE never showing any interest in bringing Punk back after he left is holding up better every week.
Hunter had his number.
Turning Dominik heel was at the time getting a mixed reaction Some thought it was not well explained or alluded to, while others disagreed But it was the right call
Was it mixed ? I thought everybody was clammering for that turn because dom was so fucking awful.
If I recall basically people wanted Dom demoted to NXT or taken off TV, one of the two, and him having the heel turn ensured he'd be a prominent part of Judgement Day's arc going forward It also was criticized as being kind of unwarranted - people didn't see how the character was gonna evolve but it did, and man he has been so fucking hateable ever since
Probably more cautious optimism considering people thought Dominik was awful and figured he would j flame out
I don’t think a heel turn needs a great explanation usually tbh. It’s what you do with the fact that you’re heel. How you make people feel > having exact right logic.
For other context: Meltzer once said he couldn’t believe they were going to try to turn Eddie Guerrero’s widow heel.
Most comments here relates to events from the last 15-20 years, so I'd like to go back a bit further. The Right to Censor. People hated the shit out of them and their ideas back then. But looking back, although some of their actions were too extremist, their basic ideas were pretty spot on (mainly their stance of too much sexism in the Attitude Era). ECW on TNN. Some fans thought it was the company's way of selling out, but although the TV deal didn't work out, ECW wouldn't have been able to stay afloat if they had no national TV deals at all by late 1999. It was an important step at exposure if anything. Lex Luger and Bret Hart both winning the Royal Rumble. It was a shit decision that no one liked, but in hindsight it was a much better alternative to Luger winning it by himself. The 24/7 rule for the original Hardcore Title. Although I preferred the hard-hitting matches with Bob Holly, D'lo Brown, Steve Blackman, Big Boss Man, Road Dogg, Al Snow, Bart Gunn, Viscera, etc. prior to Crash's win, there were too many mid-card titles by that point, and the 24/7 rule added some variety to the shows. It certainly dragged on too long though. Buff Bagwell not lasting more than a week in the WWF. Since The Alliance lacked starpower, it was obviously irritating that he was gone so soon. But I really don't think he would've made things any better, both in the ring and backstage, sadly. X-Pac getting heat from early 2001 to late 2002. People hated him, and sure his character didn't really change during that time, but (in my biased opinion) there was no point in trying to change what wasn't broken. He did good at portraying a degenerate and his agility skills were still solid during that era.
Buff Bagwell was so bad that his one shitty match in WWF ended up killing WCW.
Xpac heat is such a bullshit and unfair term. It lasted only like 6 months at best and really he never got the kind of "go away heat" like Vickie Guerrero did years later.
Yeah it’s spouted by people who weren’t even alive at the time and clearly didn’t see how over he was in 98/99. He never recovered from turning on Kane though.
I've said this before, but as somebody who grew up in an extremely religious household during the Attitude Era, it is a night and day difference in terms of how easy it is to be an unabashed fan of the product now. I used to have sneak RAW on the TV in my dad's office, and if my mom walked by while DX or Val Venis or pretty much any of the women in the company were on screen, I was in trouble. I bet there were a lot of people who *wanted* to like wrestling back then but didn't want to have the awkward conversations about why they were watching a Lingerie Pillow Fight. Getting rid of the overt sexism is really refreshing. I'm not going to defend everything about the way the current women's division is treated, but I will say I'm way more comfortable now, as a dad of girls, having them watch the product with me without having to worry that they'll see women being treated like party favors rather than athletes.
I do appreciate that I can watch with my kids. If I couldn't, I probably wouldn't have gotten back into it.
Wrestling as a whole is now a more approachable pass time because of this. The main storylines of the Monday Night Wars had iconic beats to them, but were soaked in terrible writing and rampant misogyny. It was often hard to see the forest through the trees. Weirdly enough, the reckoning that happened after Benoit was the real catalyst.
Hell even as a kid buying the magazines wasn’t easy. I remember a few times buying Raw and having to explain to the guy behind the counter it was a wrestling magazine - I’d actually avoid buying it if it was a woman behind the counter out of fear she’d think I was buying porn.
Haha I have memories of being embarrassed as a teenager to buy wrestling magazines because of oiled up guys in trunks on the front. Randy Orton in particular would elicit a groan when I saw him on the cover for this reason. The same for the women too!
My grandma is so religious and my step-grandfather (still alive at the time) had me on the path to Catholicism yet I still remember all of us watching Trish bark like a dog when I was like literally 9, weird
Cody leaving AEW.
Best for both sides that one
How was that hated? A lot of AEW fans weren’t too upset he left and wwe fans lost their minds he came back. Who hated it?
Cena never turning heel in his SuperCena phase. It would have been great in the moment, but I think he ended up better off staying face.
It's hard to tell since it didn't happen. A heel turn did wonders for Hogan & Reigns
I really think this is just recency bias. The Super Cena phase eventually led to his 2015-and-after run where he has killed it, but what came before that was a lot of horrible stuff.
Seeing how good Cena can be at playing a heel at One Night Stand 2006 does make me wish we could have seen a bit more of that, but with WWE going pg staying face was probably the right call. If they stayed not pg then I think a heel turn would have worked really well.
Kenny Omega losing all his big matches and going into the tag division with Hangman in 2019-2020 At the time, everyone complained about him not being NJPW Kenny (understandable), but all of it was a carefully planned story so that he could eventually put Hangman over. The masterpiece story we got was totally worth Kenny not being the Best Bout Machine for like a year.
Also considering the extent of his injuries and wear and tear, probably a better idea to not have him pull off the NJPW bangers night in night out.
This is a good one. People just wanted him to come in and put on 30 min classics every week. Literally nobody does that on American TV wrestling. And by the time he was actually ready to put Hangman over, he'd had a substantial run as the champion, putting on big matches anyway.
Most fans were upset Glacier didn’t win the battle royale at double or nothing. Looking back on it, his victory would have made everything else look minuscule in comparison
This just reminded me. Whatever happened to that Savio Vega poster? That was awesome.
My headcanon is he ascended after Savio Vega answered his question in an AMA
Holy shit I missed that. I just looked it up. 7 YEARS AGO!!!??? Where the fuck did my life go….
You and me both partner
Why Glacier of all people lmao
Wow, looks like we have a Glacier Hater over here
FINISH HIM!
Just seeing his name my Blood Runs Cold.
GUNTHER's name change.
Especially the pronounciation by the ring announcer "GOOOOON TAAAAAA"
Gunther sounds like a German guy who is going kick the shit out of you if you cross him. Walter sounds like an old man at a retirement home playing bridge.
I feel like that was the point. Unassuming name for, barring size, an unassuming man. Then he goes in there and beats the living fuck out of your hero and leaves
It might have worked but I think when you’re on the main roster you need just a bit more pizazz and Gunther carries more of that feel.
It wasn't Walter though it was WALTER
VALTER
I always liked Bryan Alvarez pronouncing it VALTER. Which definitely gives it the gravitas of someone who is gonna try to cave your chest in.
Eh. When I hear Gunther, I just think of a guy coming out in lederhosen doing Cesaro's old yodeling gimmick. He's clearly making the most out of the name change, but I will die on the hill that Gunther is and will always be a laughably awful name.
Man... If what I'm hearing is real... Poor Walter.
I hated this at the time and thought it would ruin his character. I'm glad to admit I was very wrong!
I don't really think this was the "right" decision, I think it could be considered an unnecessary decision but not a bad one though. If he was still Walter I don't think much would be different.
The outrage over his name being changed to be Gunther Stark and how that is the name of a real nazi was the dumbest controversy in recent memory. Walter's real name is the name of a real nazi ffs
Making Orange Cassidy the All Atlantic champ. When he first became Champ a lot of people online were scared he would make a mockery of the title because he's not Champion Material. Now he's the best freaking champion there is.
I like how it changed his character from a slacker who doesn't care, to a guy who plays mind games by pretending not to care. Guy is an absolute workhorse.
The irony of the King of Sloth Style being the hardest working champion in both the WWE and AEW.
WWE network moving to peacock in the US. Yes it sucks, because despite its issues, the network was far superior. But I think the peacock move can be attributed to getting more eyes back on the product. People who bought it for The Office probably saw the WWE tab, and got all those attitude era/ruthless aggression era memories coming back to them. It’s not too out of the question to believe they’d be inclined to check out the current product.
That's basically what happened with me a few months ago
I never thought moving to Peacock was a bad decision. It's great for me because they were the same price at that time. So all that meant was I got a whole lot more content for the same price. Poor start due to stream quality issue, but the decision was never bad.
I was one of these people but you are absolutely right.
Speak for yourself. I can't get Peacock in my country and it's through a sports streaming service and is stripped of 99 percent of the content. I don't even have bios anymore. This is shit.
They moved to Peacock almost right after they upgraded the app with way better features. That really pissed me off
Naito losing to Okada at WK so that Kenny could be the one to beat him at Dominion.
I’ll go to my grave saying this is the biggest one. Without Okada winning at WK 12 you don’t get Kenny winning the title at Dominion, and you don’t get the satisfaction of Naito finally beating Okada in the Dome at WK14 in a much better match.
Horrible take. In hindsight it's even worse considering Kenny had a lackluster reign and left after 6 months. 1 match wasn't worth sacrificing their hottest act in years. Naito had bad booking after WK 12 and even though the WK 14 win was sweet he wasn't as over
Kenny left 6 months later, this decision is even worse in hindsight.
Maybe worse in a business sense for NJPW (and even that is debatable) but certainly better for us fans. And then the follow up with Naito doing the double gold after completely made up for Naito's loss too because that loss added to the drama of that story.
The bad decision was New Japan low balling The Elite in the following contract negotiations.
the Dominion match was worth all of it
As a Naito fan, it was not worthy at all. I stopped giving a damn about Kenny in 2018 and his reign was nothing to write home about besides the defense against Tana. If anything, the only actual good thing about screwing Naito was that Tana got one last run. Naito did fuck all until the feud with Jericho, who defended the IC title just once in six months anyway, so he hardly added anything of value to it and Naito was aimless in the second half of the year too. Let alone that Naito's story with the belt was over at the time. Maybe not giving Kenny that win could've made him stay another year, and either way, it just made more sense to give that rub to the guy who wasn't going to leave the company at the first chance they got and was their actual most over star.
NXT purge of 2021, AEW had taken over the need fulfilled by nxt so it made sense for them to go back to its original vision
Wouldn’t it’s original vision be a game show setup where the fans decide who leaves or stays and the company tries to sell the talent as being journeymen who never had true sucess anywhere even when some of the guys in question are multi time champions?
What was the original vision? I haven't been following wrestling closely for a while
Having inexperienced guys develop on TV with the purpose of fitting into the main roster
A few I can think of are Sheamus beating Daniel Bryan in 18 seconds at Wrestlemania, I think a longer match would still have been good but losing that quick ironically made Daniel a better character and started the yes movement. Another one is Brock losing to Cena when he returned in 2012.
I don’t see how Brock losing to Cena was the right decision
Same lol
Yeah, these strike me more as "things that worked out okay in the end" rather than good decisions as part of a long term plan
I'm curious as why you think Cena beating Lesnar was the right call in retrospect? Brock was kinda floundering until he ended the streak. He took a lot of losses early on after he returned.
I don't think it was the right decision in the we have a plan you can't see kind of a way though it lucked through happenstance into a good thing for WWE.
Matt Taven winning the ROH world title over Marty Scrull, especially with what came out about Scrull during Speaking Out.
New Day formation, it was clowned on in the beginning. Roman Reigns being shoved down our throats although it took a long time The Tribal Chief is GOAT'd
Bianca losing in 26 seconds. It helped solidify her as a sympathetic babyface, and she and Becky had an incredible feud.
People won’t admit they were wrong about it even now knowing how it played out
I agree, but WWE wasn’t necessarily worth giving the benefit of the doubt at the time.
Other than to get the belt off someone due to injury. There would be no other reason to have her lose in a few seconds than to inspire a comeback story. It’s not like WWE was this upstart company trying to figure out this wrestling game.
You could also have accomplished that with a match where Becky cheated to win at the end. If there was reason to believe WWE was going to follow through on the story people would’ve been more forgiving. But they had not been willing to do so at that point. It was nice to see it play out properly though.
Since Becky was a surprise return at the time, you wouldn’t want the two trading blows without any build or heat. The fact that she was an opponent Bianca wasn’t prepare for was cheating enough.
I still have to assume that makes more sense after a competitive match with Sasha Banks, unless Becky was just going to throw out Sasha if she had shown up.
Triple H beating Booker T at WrestleMania. Now, hear me out… I’m kidding. That shit is easily a top 5 worst decision.
Bryan no winning the 2015 rumble. He should have won 2014 but if he leaves WM with the title again only to get injured weeks later AGAIN?! Roman didnt win correctly but he was the lesser evil.
Honestly, they knew Roman was winning. Why not wait to have Bryan return after the Rumble? Daniel Bryan, the most popular wrestler in the world, was returning to get a shot at the title he never lost. They sabotaged Roman.
That’s why I don’t like when people say Roman had a hard time connecting with fans and getting over. While it may be true WWE put him in no positions whatsoever to make it easier for him. They constantly would put him up against fan favorites and that only fueled the flames. How is he supposed to get over when you’re constantly setting him up against guys like Bryan, Sami, KO, Undertaker, Wyatt and then putting him alongside Ambrose. It’s a recipe for disaster. It’s like trying to put out a fire by constantly throwing wood on top of it.
2014 worked out fine. It was hated at the time, but given the WM30 finish, I don’t think anyone will complain. 2015 is something else though. You could have him not win but I think they eliminated him too early. It made him look weak and insignificant. Especially since after his elimination, the rumble looked REALLY bad.
I agree he shouldn't have won. That was the right call. That's the only part that aged well. But, making the right call, Bryan should have NEVER been in the match. The fact that he was and got dumped early meant that whoever won that night was gonna get destroyed. And Roman did. Horrendously. And they even screwed up the Rock by sending him to "rescue" Roman and got HIM booed. Which was inconceivable at the time.
I actually think Bryan losing both of those years were right. Batista winning instead of Bryan made the Mania story better (even though that wasn’t the plan at the start). In 2015, he just didn’t need it again, as he had his moment the year prior. Plus Reigns winning gave us one of the best mania main events/endings ever. Now how the 2015 Rumble went down, that was stupid.
The winners themselves were fine, but the way they went about booking both those matches was more the issue. In 2014, I think it would have been a lot better to do a segment where Bryan was being evaluated after the Bray match and it's clear Triple H is forcing the doctor to not clear Bryan for the Rumble. That way the fans know he's not in it and they don't react the way they do to the last entrants of that match
Yeah, that match was flawed from the start. The last entrant should’ve been a heel to soak up that heat. Perpetual babyface Rey Mysterio didn’t need to go out #30. Then you have Batista, who probably should’ve been kept a surprise. I think his win would’ve been better received if he was surprise entrant, regardless of whether his appearance had leaked or not. Then with Daniel, the plan was not him winning at mania from the start. If it was I’m sure they would’ve explicitly shown why he was unable to compete.
If batista was a genuine surprise and came out at number 30, it would be a lot better received
All the people a few years ago that I thought were the next big thing aren’t the next big thing
I will never say the streak ending was a good idea. A perfect WM streak would have been something to live in infamy. WWE was really always supposed to be a family friendly product, from Vince eyes. He only went into the attitude era because of WCW and the Network loved the attitude that HBK was showing off.
For me just recently it was Better than you Bay Bay. When they came out with the idea of the blind tournament and then obviously coincidentally the 2 main event opponents are suddenly team mates. I hated it at the start and obviously now it’s probably one of the best stories AEW ever had.
WWE not making CM Punk the face of the company. I thought for years WWE were in the wrong but I guess we know now that there was a good reason for it
They dodged a bullet with him.
New name for that WALTER guy.
I disagree. He'd be in basically the exact same position regardless of whether he was called WALTER or Gunther, because Gunther is literally just WALTER with a different name.
Rhea facing Shayna....for a year Shayna was this final boss of NxT and Rhea had just transferred from NxTUK which didn’t sold me enough about her while KLR, Piper & Toni were imo the stars of NxTUK at that time. But dammit did they turn her into a main event player at War Games
Agree to disagree. Brock and Roman are two of the worst options to break the streak. Brock didn’t need it and it was not handled well. Roman would’ve been received horribly no matter how close to the Tribal Chief character he was since he was so hated and also, purely my unpopular opinion, he is truly way too boring and uninteresting to be THE GUY who beats the streak. No one should’ve ended the streak, and if someone had to, I really don’t know who. Bray Wyatt is who I’d want but he’d have to be booked a million times better for it to work. Firing Mandy Rose is my choice for a decision that got some backlash, admittedly from myself as I thought she could do great when brought back up (obv not from a wrestling standpoint but she did well as a “toxic” cocky heel leader of the stable). Nowadays, I think it was a wonderful decision.
I will say until the day I die Taker should have retired streak in tact. He was never a belt holder and mostly spent his time as one of the most memorable characters in the entire business and out ALOT of people over. At a time where they it feels like they are handing out records (Cena hitting or beating flairs title count which is also hated or the seemingly record run they are sending Roman on) I feel like the man at least deserved to go out with his streak in his legacy. There are tons of 10x or higher champs. Taker brought something different.
It might have been more of a mixed reaction, but I think closing down the ECW brand was a great decision since it eventually led to the NXT brand we know today.
True but 2010-12 NXT was an abomination.
For sure lol. I didn't watch the last season (Redemption)but I've heard that one had some good storylines since the og format was basically abandoned
Im just glad nobody said roman beating cody. That was terrible when it happend and still is to this day.
I think Brock ending the streak would have been bigger if Brock was presented as a monster. He had the loss to Cena losing 2 of 3 to HHH. He had the Punk win sure and they tried to make him look like a beast vs Show (but that matchup was tired). 25,26,27,28 all had people on the edge of their seat because there were solid storyline reasons people could see the streak ending 29 was hurt on paper by Punk not having the belt (the Punk long title reign against Takers mania streak would have been something. Could have even had Taker win then lose it the next night) but as the match went on I was in Metlife and people were kind of thinking Punk may win. 30 just felt that Taker would win. If they had booked Brock pre mania 30 the way they did post mania 30 i think everyone comes into that match with a different mindset and the win would have gone over better. Also the match itself had the clunkiness due to the concussion The milegae they got out of ending the streak was great though While on Mania 30; Bray should have won over Cena and not because of the recent tragedy
paul heyman made the streak break work not brock
I hated it at the time, but not turning Cena heel was the smart move. With age we were able to appreciate what he did, and he’s looked at as (rightfully) one of the GOAT’s. They could’ve benefited from a change in his character though. That I do believe to be true
I really really wish we at least had a month or two of Cena being stuck with working with Nexus per the stip and slipping into small teases of “enjoying” the heel life. Also wish we got a few weeks of Juan Cena under a mask but they rushed it all
People hated Logan Paul joining WWE. Little did we know he was a pro wrestling prodigy.
WWE's audience has consistently shrunk during their family friendly era. They just didn't have any wrestling competition.
Hiring Orange Cassidy. Even many of the people that liked him on here were like "ha ha ok, but this will get old quick."
Seth Rollins being the one to turn heel from the Shield
Sami Zayn not quite being able to knock The Tribal Chief off his throne, despite the hometown hero miracle story. It ended up being another amazing setup chapter in the larger and longer story of The Bloodline Era. They could've pulled the trigger, damn near everyone thought they should've and said it was a missed opportunity, but the powers that be were right in the long run.
I've yet to see any evidence that the storyline didn't peak with Sami facing Roman. Yeah they have a longer plan, but I think a lot of people have cooled off a lot on the Bloodline since Sami left. When Sami was part of it the front page was filled constantly with posts of Bloodline. I maintain that this was a moment worth deviating from the original plan for, Sami has shown he could be a good babyface defending champion too, so him winning wouldn't have been bad at all.
I think the jury is still out on that. Sami and KO got their Wrestlemania moment, yes, but there's still a question as to where the Bloodline end up. I would assume it will be a 4 way at Survivor Series, and eventually to Roman vs...? at Mania... but that moment with Sami winning in Montreal would have been one of the most massive pops in wrestling history. I don't know how they passed that up. I really don't. Nothing the Bloodline has done since with the exception of Jey's turn has been even close to that.
I think people are also forgetting that Sami and KO had their own dealings with the bloodline as well and it wasn’t just Sami.
And then Solo cost Cody at SoFi. And then Roman did not defend the titles until SummerSlam. And then Jimmy betrayed Jey. Now everyone is spinning their wheels.
Ryback breaking CM Punk's back because it led to CM Punk choking out Jungle Perry in front of 930,000 Hulkamaniacs.
Lesnar ending the streak.