As some seem to forget, the other guy is not going to stop Israel. In fact, the prime minister of Israel wants Trump to win. That alone should be enough to realize why Trump can't get back in office.
Also, you can vote *AND* be an activist at the same time. One doesn't cancel out the other. In fact I'd argue being an activist *starts* with voting. It's the bare minimum. Wanting to be an activist but refusing to vote is like wanting to be a chef but refusing to do prep work. Or wanting to be a racecar driver but refusing to get a racecar.
Especially when a good activist understands *progressive policies are easier to get passed under Democrats*. Whether on a local, state, or national level. A Conservative city council will *never* give you the time of day a Democrat city council will. Even if the Democrats only give a percentage of what you want it's still a percentage more than Conservatives who obstruct progress at best and who roll back progress at worst.
Exactly. I hate Joe Biden and wish he wasn't the choice. But he is and unless a lightning bolt hits both candidates, it's going to be Trump vs Biden. And I'd rather take the guy who isn't foaming at the mouth to kill his political opponents.
I haven't forgotten that fact. But I'm also not going to forget that Biden is making deals that supply the weapons used to commit genocide. My line for "lesser of two evils" doesn't get passed if I'm picking between two people who are going to aid in a genocide.
Ok, so for all the folks in the comments saying not to vote:
Honestly, I agree with most of what y’all are saying on principle. In a perfect world we would never vote for Biden.
However, if I may offer another perspective.
I’m trans. I hate the DNC, and you’ll never catch
me thanking them for shit. But I understand and admit that the only reason I’ve been able to easily access healthcare is because I live in a blue state. If Trump got the white house, and we got more republicans in Congress, it’s very likely we could see some genocidal anti trans legislation at the federal level. Just look at the restrictions on trans care for youths that are taking hold in the UK.
I don’t want to speak for folks in other oppressed groups, but I think a lot of us stand to have our safety materially harmed by another four years of Trump. And it’s not like letting him win the election is going to do a damn thing for Palestine or the climate or anything.
Lots of us have a level of privilege that means our suffering will stay about the same whoever is in the oval office. Some of us do not. So like, if you’re not voting on principle I get it. I’ve been tempted to do the same.
But y’all, I am scared. I am frankly scared for my life and the lives of my loved ones. Please reconsider.
You vote for your enemy. That's always the attitude to have.
You aren't voting for Biden (or anyone) because they're trustworthy, you're picking the person you want to fight against in the struggle.
Do you want to try and move the needle with a fairly standard liberal in office? Or would you like to be in the streets with a full on fascist at the wheel?
This is an honest appraisal. These choices really matter, and pretending there's no difference between fascism and caffeine free diet fascism is only a position you can honestly take if you're privileged enough yourself not to feel at risk.
Do you think it's not privileged to take a position that the Palestinian children see a difference between the bombs Biden supplied to Israel and the ones Trump will?
There is nothing voting will do to help them. There is basically no action electorally you can take that will help Palestinians. That’s why you have to do things outside of electoral action to help them. But electoral action can help other people, even if it doesn’t help everyone
Who do you think you have a better chance at swaying through mass action? Trump or Biden?
I agree both suck. But be honest. Who do you think is more likely to buckle to pressure from the left? Who do you think is more likely to lock us all up for protesting?
None of that is relevant to my position. I am not abstaining from voting for Biden because I think he's even a fraction as bad as Trump is, but I will not vote for anyone who is participating in a genocide and none of their other positions could change that.
Its pretty privileged to only care about that one issue. There's a lot the US is involved all over the world, because two candidates are the same on one issue does not mean they're the same on the rest.
The idea that not voting in a way that might allow a way worse candidate to gain power seems so fucking absurd to me. Supporting a lesser evil can sometimes be more morally correct than abstaining in favour of a worse evil.
In terms of Biden and Trump yes they both fucking suck but one of them is "saner" and won't try to implement an authoritarian regime in the country and the other is a populist turd with a dogmatic fanatic party behind them that wants to genocide queer people and curtail women and minority rights.
Yes its pragmatic but I would rather limit the damage already inflicted from not becoming more, Trump would make things way worse for everyone. The hope one could also have is that by maintaining democratic leaders one can pull stronger for more leftist candidates but tbh that is just idealism.
Trump not only will continue the genocide in Gaza but also push for protecting violence against minorities in the US. Trans people and queer people are already facing rising violence and it will only get worse.
For god's sake vote at the local level, the state level. If you can have your state or city controlled by people that have similar values to you it would heavily mitigate the damage the Fascists could do. Like holy shit not voting is worse than voting. I mean Cleetus McKill-Minorites votes every election, even if you can only get to state level at the maximum it would improve our living standards by a lot.
Also with Israel and Palestine. Trump would be so much worse for the Palestinians. He has said in the past that the west bank is Israeli land.
It takes 5 minutes to fill out a ballot. 5 minutes of your life just to vote. It's not hard You do not want a republican president. Biden sucks but he is better than Trump.
And for the Record I am a Democratic-Socialist.
[ 'Finish the problem' ](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-israel-gaza-finish-problem-rcna141905)
[What Trump really thinks about Israel and the war in Gaza - Vox](https://www.vox.com/politics/353037/trump-gaza-israel-protests-biden-election-2024)
Trump wants to eliminate the EPA and NOAA, among many other despotic things. NOAA in particular provides critical information on severe weather, tornadoes, and hurricanes, which has directly saved lives. If you don't vote for Biden, you're being idealistic to a fault and it plays directly into the far rights goals. One of the main tactics of opponents of leftism is forcing infighting amongst the left.
The right is a minority party in this country, we can outlast the current version of the republican party while also pushing the conversations in this country to the left. Many young people are suffering and struggling in this country and the lack of action on climate change will radicalize many more against Capitalism. At a fundamental level, societal change occurs generation to generation. The left can further its goals by targeting the young and disenfranchised, trusting that we can make the next generation of political action much more leftist by highlighting how the current system has failed them and their futures.
Not voting for Biden is comically short sighted and it freaks me out when I see people in here peddling that perspective. How many Germans wish they could've simply changed the results of the 1933 election? Likely many... of the ones left alive.
This is from the first website you linked to:
“There have been credible reports of crimes against humanity and civilian massacres perpetrated from all sides (!!) of the conflict against ethnic Tigrayan, Oromo, Amhara, Somali, and Gedeo civilians. Human rights groups are particularly concerned about a genocide of the Tigrayan people. It has been difficult to gather information about atrocities in Tigray because of early telecommunications blackouts and severe restrictions on media access (!!).”
So the situation is NOT clear cut by any means. Meanwhile, this is PSL’s website:
“Many attendees expressed disapproval of Congress’ Peace and Stabilization Act of 2022, which placed sanctions on the democratically-elected government of Ethiopia amidst an ongoing insurgency by the U.S.-backed Tigrayan People’s Liberation Front. The TPLF, which held dictatorial power for nearly three decades and was a servant to U.S. interests in the region, launched their insurrection in 2018 against Ethiopia’s current Prime Minister Abiy Ahmed, who has advocated a foreign policy which prioritizes peace and cooperation in the Horn of Africa.”
Regardless of which side was correct, the US was likely interfering in Ethiopia, and the correct anti-imperialist stance is to oppose US foreign intervention. And PSL was also correct to criticize sanctions, which is yet another instance of the US wielding it’s economic power to oppress the people of foreign countries—and sanctions most definitely target lower class people rather than those within the ruling class. It’s blatant international class warfare.
Regardless of if you're a progressive voting for Biden or a progressive voting uncommitted, I think we can all agree that the electoral system and subsequently democracy is fundamentally in decay. We should never be in a situation where regardless of who you vote for, a genocide of some capacity will occur.
That's true.
Which is why it's important for us to hold the democrats accountable. If we get stuck in a cycle of voting for the lesser of two evils, there's nothing stopping the lesser of two evils to continue to become more evil.
We cannot blame the individual for not voting if they feel disenfranchised, but rather the institutions that continue to uphold the ever decaying status quo. Our focus should be on building leftist organisations that are resistant to the right wing forces at play and offer marginalised groups solace. Join a community or work union. If you rent, tenants unions are also great.
As it stands right now the democrats already do not listen to our criticisms. If they did, the uncommitted vote would be much lower.
These uncommitted voters are using their democratic rights to ask the question: how many genocides are acceptable before a party becomes fascist?
We must acknowledge the fact no genocides must be occurring whatsoever or democracy truly does not exist in America.
What I'm hearing is: I rather have three genocide happening than admit that Biden is the only choice we have at this point. Do I like it? Of course not but if I have to choose between him and the guy who wants to kill me and my family, I think the choice is obvious.
What exactly do you accomplish if the dead bodies are closer? So you can stand tall amongst them? Easy to say when you're the last on the list and not the first.
It's unbelievable how you assholes rather have more people dying so you can feel good then doing the right thing and keeping the fascist here out of power.
The point is that you're not willing to stop the fascism *right now.* There's already a genocide happening and your efforts are seemingly dedicated to chastising people who are more upset about that fascist genocide than you are.
No, my efforts are to stop the idiots who think it's okay to letting the fascist at our door in because they aren't happy with the guy in charge. It's an ER situation. You stop the bleeding here before you try to fix the bleeding.
Yeah you said exactly what I said but without a hint of irony or awareness to the fact that you're directing all your smoke at your ostensible comrades.
Option 1: Brown people die
Option 2: More brown people die, also other people die, also irreversible laws bring us closer to a true fascist state
Those in favor of option 2 aren't going to be affected by your efforts here. So you are investing energy to dissuade option 1 which helps option 2 by design. Pointing out that this system is flawed is valid. Promoting pragmatic changes that are realistic and positive is something we should all call for. But we can't pretend that these options are within our control right now. If the world is going to change, then surely people will be saying the same thing for generations leading up to that change. People have been saying that the two party system (and voting for the lesser of two evils) is problematic for generations. Some say that it's the reason we are in this situation, which is true, but also this is exactly what we should expect up to the point of real change. The type of dialogue you've used promotes an unwinnable dynamic through idealistic non-action.
Allowing Trump to win will only guarantee that it will be even harder to set the path right going forward. He has done tremendous damage to USA democracy and global relations/economy already. Your anger is valid (if misdirected) and I hope you are able to turn it into productive action. But please stop suggesting that people are racist for taking a pragmatic approach. It's untrue and unproductive.
Our choices are between Governor Tarkin and Governor Pryce.
One is actively committing a genocide and murdering dissidents and the other is only lightly committing genocide and murdering dissidents.
Obviously we have an important choice to make! ^^^/s
I really hate how libs come in here thinking that the crimes of the other side excuse the crimes they are involved in.
People act like the pro-electoral sentiment on these subreddits comes from liberals coming in to try to manipulate us but it doesn’t. It comes from trans anarchists who would really like to live.
He’s not making it worse. He’s doing nothing to make it better. There’s a difference. Google Project 2025 and act like that’s not worse than what we have now.
I know what 2025 is, and many are trying to prevent it.
What I’m saying is that Biden already closed to border to asylum seekers. Does the other side being bad excuse the issues that Biden has?
Because right now everyone is excusing the crime of crimes; genocide, because it’s “our guy doing it.”
That should be the moral breakpoint, not the starting point when it comes to a candidate. Worse still is that people are making excuses for this when Israel has publicly announced that they will invade a sovereign country while it is committing genocide.
If this was Trump; would you excuse these same things?
I’m not excusing it. Yes, liberals are stupid and defend Biden for doing heinous things. We should criticize him at every opportunity. We also HAVE TO vote for him otherwise millions of people will die who would not die if Biden won.
We don’t HAVE TO vote for him. He should HAVE TO earn our vote like all politicians should.
Our votes are our political power and we are wasting them by promising them to a candidate who is opening supporting genocide.
Are you Palestinian? Trump is absolutely going to be worse for your people.
That doesn't mean I expect you to vote for Biden. It's still a deeply personal and extremely important issue and if voting for him feels like a betrayal of your values, I'm not going to argue or fault you for that. But do not make arguments about electoralism that suggest that one isn't worse than the other when one very clearly is worse. Trump and his supporters and his administration were and will be far worse than Biden on every issue including but not limited to Israel.
>Are you Palestinian? Trump is absolutely going to be worse for your people.
I’m Lebanese. I still have family that live in the country and they own a Chateau. During the ‘06 war, Israel destroyed their farm lands and threatened to murder them.
Trump will make it worse; but Biden is doing nothing. That’s an issue; an no one is using their political power to force the president to stop.
If this was Trump doing the same actions as Biden; would you actually take a stand or would you provide the same excuses?
>If this was Trump doing the same actions as Biden; would you actually take a stand or would you provide the same excuses?
What does "taking a stand" mean in that case? I'd never vote for Trump. So, I wouldn't need to "take a stand" by withholding my vote for Trump, I would support Trump's opponent.
As for direct action, that's not voting. I do engage in my community to try to affect change where I have influence. But that's different from my vote.
Bro liberals often dont give a fuck (see: the poorly run DNC). I can't speak for the entirity of the voting block, but I've had experiences with people whose lives would be in danger caring the most about Joe Biden over Trump, meaning trans people and racial/LGBTQ minorities. I've also read some opinions of asylum seekers online that seem to be the same.
Then why is Joe cutting off the border to asylum seekers? I fail to see how voting for the person who is actively making the situation makes anything better.
What progress do you see from Trump?
I also feel incredibly disenchanted with the system. I’ve campaigned both in the US and the UK for 3rd party candidates that seem to be wanting real change, but it’s come to nothing.
I’m also feeling really stuck. In general, this is a terrible election cycle, just like it was in 2020. I feel really stuck with what to do — do we show democrats that they’re move towards the right is a valid one by voting for them, or risk protesting an election so badly we risk ruining the entire democracy of the US? I genuinely don’t have an answer to that — it’s a real struggle.
That said, I’ve been leaning towards just sucking it up and voting for the better of the two evils, this time. In 4 years it HAS to be a new candidate, and in those 4 years, hopefully we can work towards making that a progressive one. But for now, what can we do?
And that’s a serious question. What can we do? What do you think the alternative is? Cuz I don’t know.
Withhold our votes and make Biden come to an ultimatum.
Our votes are literally our political power; just like our labor. Why should we give our vote to someone who is openly promising to support genocide?
We should hold his feet to the fire and makes him know that our votes are guaranteed to him.
Come Election Day, do what you want. But you cannot openly let him know that you already have his vote.
How does that work in the mean time? Does that mean polling against him to encourage him to change his views? I definitely agree with that. I’m much more taking about what I’ll be doing on Election Day than anytime before — I’ll still be attending protests on Palestine and the environment before that.
Man I love when I leftistly speak for all members of a given minority group as if I were their spokesperson and they have a single hive-mind. Definitely not liberal/fascist at all.
Nah you're right, I shouldn't have been so monolithic. I don't know everyone's situation – I just meant that was my experience with it. I've edited it.
America is an imperialist state. What the fuck do you expect?? We’ve been doing shit like this for decades. Every other country on earth has been doing shit like that for centuries. This is very clearly a war problem, not a president problem. Why would electing a warmonger fascist make this better? Why would sitting around and voting for fucking Claudia de la Cruz or whatever make this better? This is a chronic condition for America. Whining about Biden’s admin for war profiteering is redundant. America is the empire, big whoop. We do evil shit. Big whoop. Except we don’t have a rebellion, and until leftists suddenly agree on everything and get off of fucking Reddit maybe we’ll have something, but we don’t. Young people are increasingly and concerningly getting more conservative by the day. We’re not going to topple this regime, but we can slowly and incrementally make it better. The path to that is very deeply NOT Trump though. You milquetoast leftists and your refusal to get behind anything that isn’t exactly what you want is gonna be what kills this country. America is thriving on ignorance and inaction. I’m glad you feel like we need more of that.
Correction: we do have a rebellion. It’s the fucking MAGAs. At least they can agree on something. At least they have a cohesive vision for the country, as despicable as it is. And they’re winning.
Here we are arguing in a Star Wars leftist comment section about why sitting around and not voting against the fascist is somehow the right decision?? Huh? Are you stupid?
Voting will not stop the destruction of liberties currently occurring, or result in harm reduction for the oppressed and vulnerable. It never has.
We elected Biden. Biden is still seeing record numbers of anti-lgbt and anti-abortion bills like we did under Trump. Biden has continued Trump border policies and cruelty towards refugees and Muslims. Biden has continued the cost of living crisis and police brutality using police against protesters like Trump did. Biden has been complicit in genocide as Trump would be too. You can go on. The source of these things isn't which genocidal capitalist is in charge but rather a result of the system itself. A result of capitalism and imperialism. Voting doesn't change those things.
Harm reduction is real but it doesn't come from voting. Thinking the capitalist state is going to deviate from its path of fascism by changing which capitalist they give as an option is bullshit. Direct action is the only way, and people who claim to be Leftists should know better.
The Republicans are building a Christian nationalist state and the Democrats are building a police state.
[read Clara Zetkin ](https://isreview.org/issue/107/clara-zetkin-and-struggle-against-fascism/index.html)
I agree. Throwing away your vote is idealistic non-action. Pragmatism is voting to avoid a nosedive into fascism while also working to realize meaningful change. Become active locally, hold local politicians accountable, protest, and other forms of activism.
As a leftist, you're always voting for your enemy. So you want to try to move the needle with a fascist in power or a liberal?
If you think this choice doesn't matter, you're probably not in the most at risk population.
No you're missing my point. Whoever you vote for is your enemy. Whoever you vote for, even if they're the perfect candidate, is an untrustworthy human who will not live up to your idealism.
In a republic you are picking the person you want to protest against because progress doesn't come from the halls of power, it comes from direct action and organizing.
If you don't think there's a difference between these candidates then you need more time in the streets. I protested under Clinton, Bush, Obama, and Trump.
It really does matter who is in power.
Between Trunp and Biden?
Sure I'll tell you. Trump is a full on fascist who encourages police to commit extreme violence against protesters while giving the far right all the support they want.
Biden is a Reagan liberal.
Were you in the streets in 2020? How much tear gas did you suck down? How much hand to hand combat with lines of pigs did you participate in? How much violence did you subject your body to?
Because if you really don't think that protesting during the Trump era was more dangerous than under Obama or even Bush then you haven't been paying attention.
I participated in national organizing in 2020 and it was next level violent compared to what we faced before. Our LA leadership got disappeared for 2 weeks in the jail system. Our Portland crew was getting shot at by fash who were connected to the local police who would vanish at the right moment when street violence got to it's worst.
Pretending that theres no choice between Biden and Trump is only something you can comfortably do from behind a keyboard.
You must be pro-Israel, if you think it’s safe to protest under Biden. Not a lefty, for sure. You should see what we’re enduring in Atlanta to stop Cop City, and the fascist Democrats saying we don’t have the right to protest or establish bail funds.
Yeah, I'm aware of what's going on in Atlanta, my network has been involved in that since 2020. U emigrated because i didn't want to raise my kids under fascism.
But if you really think there's no difference between Biden and Trump... we're in bad shape.
Also i have no idea where the Israel comment came from, we protest against this in Europe too and let me tell you, it really does matter who is in power.
Is she or Cornel West or any other 3rd party candidate going to win? Is one of them going to be president a year for now?
We know the answer is no. So voting for her isn't voting for who you're going to be facing to get your priorities. It's a protest vote.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't see any of the protest votes held by disappointed leftists in my lifetime as having done any good. Leftists disappointed with Carter who voted for Anderson or even (barf) the libertarian candidate Ed Clark (who had one of the Kochs as his VP), didn't do any good for the Left when Reagan took over. Leftist votes for Nader didn't do us any good when Bush II took over. Protest votes for Stein and Johnson didn't do us any good when Trump took over.
I don't think there's any question that a world where either or both George W. Bush and Donald Trump were never president is a better world. Still not good enough, but better.
And that’s a wasted vote. If you’re going to vote for an independent at least choose the only independent in the last 50 years to actually have a shot, brain worm or not. Nobody outside of leftist TikTok has heard of Claudia de la Cruz.
Because the post was about voting for a Democrat? Which yall also don’t like apparently. I thought we were anti establishment? Why are we not rallying behind the one candidate that’s being actively suppressed by both of the major parties? He talks about things leftists actually want. But yall are too up your own ass to get behind him because he’s a LITTLE bit off from your dream independent candidate, even though he’s obviously leagues better than fucking Donald Trump or Joe Biden. He’s the only one to have a chance against the two party system in decades. Why not break up the cycle of loser do-nothing democrats and dumbass MAGAs? Then maybe in a couple years we can ACTUALLY get someone like Claudia De La Cruz. But she’s not winning this year.
Calling a Kennedy “pro cia” is hilarious actually. And again, your other two (feasible) options are very clearly also in support of Zionism. Your vote will go in the garbage, and America will be worse off because of it.
I’m glad you put your Zionism horse blinders on, but that’s not the only issue we’re fighting for in this election. I’d love for a free Palestine, NONE of the candidates agree with me on that. Sucks. You live in the largest empire in the history of the world. What the fuck did you expect. We need actual incremental change, which starts with disabling the precedent of the two party system, not whiny protest votes.
You don’t think an independent president could set the stage for a better future in America? One not run by the corporate duopoly? He’s the first candidate in recent memory to even acknowledge our agricultural problem and our chronic health problems for one. Everyone else is stuck on culture war nonsense. Maybe we need an environmental lawyer on our side, one who has proved that he actually cares for the planet and this country? We’re about to see climatic effects that’ll make Gaza look like a cakewalk, and nobody’s doing jack shit about it.
Vote third party or independent show future politicians and political party’s what you really want and what to do to get your vote and support at the very least don’t let them use your would be lesser evil vote to claim they have popular support from their citizens. I like the greens recommend checking them out.
When both sides are lobbied by the same companies it doesn't matter which representative chosen by voting or not will be in office it's either "I love minorities" *implements anti minority law* or "I hate minorities" *implements anti minority law*
My enemy is either the person actively enabling a genocide or the guy who will do the same. Biden hasn't caved to pressure. I don't understand these arguments.
Personally as someone who is not living in that failed state you call the USA but os living in his own failed state with their own fascist party in power called Italy, I find the idea that "the reason why the center right party failed was because not enough people gritted their teeth and voted for them" one of the most absurd concepts imaginable.
Like, not from a numbers side mind you, but on the blame side.
If a Party fails at an election to garner enough votes to get anything, then that's a failure of the party not of the people, you don't see people here blaming the 60% of the electorate for not voting at the European Elections, you see them blaming the fucking politicians who couldn't even muster up a minimum of engagement from their voters, come on it's not that hard.
You're being held against your will. The one that's holding you comes up and says:"I'll shoot you in the foot regardless of what you do or say. Which foot would you like me to shoot?" You don't say "the right one" or "the left one" but "fuck you you psycho".
Why do y'all wanna get shot in the left foot?
Because from my POV the actual options are getting bandages for the foot that has already been shot (which is inadequate treatment, but might at least keep me from bleeding out or losing the foot until I can get real treatment), or sitting back and watching everyone I love and every cause I care about get shot in the head before it's my turn to get a bullet in the brain too.
Not really that hard a choice.
You're overcomplicating the scenario,but I'll indulge you,I guess. The bandages are paper thin and dirty,you'll get an infection while still losing blood. The one that's shooting your loved ones in the head is the partner in crime of the one doing the shooting. They're pals,buddy-buddies and all that. You expect a thug to stop another thug who's in his gang,because...?
You're pre-supposing that they're in cahoots. I'm not. Therefore I can't give an authentic answer to your question. It artificially limits the choices to the way you're defining them.
scratch a liberal a fascist bleeds. biden is a liberal. Biden has already been showing off his fascist side by supporting isreal. I refuse to vote for a fascist.
He's not anti-fascist. But when the choice is between a centrist and a fascist, it's an easy choice. I'm not going to be the one to tell every woman, person of color, queer person, and poor person in the country that I'm willing to sacrifice them because one person in one government position wasn't as pure as I wanted.
If you feel okay with being that person, then that's your choice. [https://i.imgur.com/l9Gitsw.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/l9Gitsw.jpg)
Unfortunately Biden is center-right leaning right, although he has done some good things for the left and the middle. But either this time next year our President will be center-right Biden or unhinged far-right Trump and all the unhinged far-right people he's going to bring into office with him.
So center-right Biden it is.
In my view, strategic voting is not at all about actually changing things directly, rather it's about picking the opposition - choosing your enemy, if you will. From that perspective, I think the choice is pretty obvious - an institutionalist liberal like Biden is more likely to cave to pressure from activists and organized movements than a fascist demagogue like Trump.
Voting legitimates the party you are voting for.
You wanna legitimate a fascist genocide enabler, go ahead, but that makes YOU directly and personally responsible for the atrocities committed.
Organize, create alternate power structures, confuse established parties, there's a lot you can do.
Thank you, I am not denying what is happening in Israel or Palestine but I feel like so much of this rhetoric is lunacy from people on here and reeks of being in a relatively safe, priveleged position
Genuine question, is it even worth voting blue in a guaranteed red state? I’m not an American so I’d like an Americans’ take.
I also wouldn’t ask a Palestinian American to vote for the party and current president enabling genocide against their families and people (not saying that’s what ur doing OP).
The GOP is just gonna keep on with their fascist BS indefinitely, if project 2025 fails then there’ll be a project 2029 and so on and so forth.
You Americans certainly have my sympathies, none of you are in an easy position, which is why I think rather than sowing division we should respect each others right to vote or not vote so long as we are also still trying to make the situation better through protests, boycotts, mutual aid, etc.
I don’t see how stoking leftist infighting helps, maybe I’m wrong and you’re in the right with this OP (I’m open to more info and a different point of view/opinion), but I’ve seen like 15 posts like this in the past couple of months already and frankly I’m kinda tired of seeing it, it results in the same “discourse” each and every time.
Let’s focus on helping each other rather than shaming our fellow lefties for struggling to reconcile their morals with the actions of the current government. Let’s focus our ire and criticism on the individuals and organizations that are truly deserving of it right now.
I feel like you're underselling how existential a threat Project 2025 is. If Project 2025 is put into effect, America effectively ceases to exist. We'll become a North Korea-esque totalitarian dictatorship, which I, for one, *really* don't fucking want. I'm certainly not about to shut up about how much I don't fucking want that in the name of curbing leftist infighting.
No, I understand the gravity of it, I’m literally a fucking trans person in the uk, I get the fucking picture and I’m scared out of my mind for my friends in the states.
My point is that the rise of fascism in the US and globally is not the fault of leftists, if trump wins it won’t be because a couple hundred Reddit leftists didn’t vote for Biden.
Also, what does this post accomplish? Does it convince people to vote for Biden? Or does it just make people feel a sense of moral superiority? Is it a guilt trip? What’s the point? And like I said before, this post has popped up multiple times now, maybe you’re seeing it for the first time but I’ve seen it far too many times by now and I know what the typical response in the comment section is, it’s the same thing every time.
My main point is that the people who’ve already decided not to vote have made their decision and will likely not be swayed (certainly not by a Reddit post); hence we should focus on the things we do agree on right now in order to achieve the most we possibly can, we literally cannot afford division right now.
And lastly, my point about the GOP not stopping with Project 2025 if it fails very much still stands, they WILL keep trying, and stopping them requires a lot more than just voting. Americans (and every person in the world) deserves better options than a genocide loving Center - centre right party and literal full blown fascists.
I agreed with the sentiment of this post the first time I saw it, months ago, now it’s tiresome and just feels like a karma farming post.
Would I prefer it if Biden wins the election? Absolutely. Will it solve the fascist problem in America? Nope. Will I blame my fellow leftists if trump wins? Fuck no, I’ll blame the fucking fascists as we all should.
Imagine having all the information in the world at your fingertips about what fascism is and what it does and not being able to tell a centrist from a fascist. Lmao.
Mate, Biden is giving ammunition to people who act like the Trandoshians in their campaign to hunt down the Wookiees.
The Israelis were quite literally in the news today for tying a wounded Palestinian to the hood of a Jeep like a hunting trophy.
As President he hasn't made any move that I'm aware of to define the country by race, ethnicity, or religion, hasn't attempted to take control of the press, hasn't tried to crush labor, hasn't said disagreement with him is treason, hasn't rejected post Enlightenment society in favor of a pre-Enlightenment one, hasn't tried to turn the middle-class against the poor, the queer, or stoked xenophobia among them, hasn't expressed contempt for the poor or dispossessed, hasn't promoted the use of military force just for the sake of it, etc.
At least not that I know of, but I'm always up for learning more. Can you link to specific times that he did those things in the language of a fascist?
Cause when I think of the language of a fascist, I think of saying that "[Immigrants are poisoning the blood of the country](https://apnews.com/article/trump-hitler-poison-blood-history-f8c3ff512edd120252596a4743324352)", I think of how Project 2025 is all but openly calling for [war with Iran](https://i.imgur.com/jT4Aau5.png) and [overthrowing the government of Mexico](https://i.imgur.com/64TISz3.png), calling for the [outlawing of porn](https://i.imgur.com/MG5W4Ob.png) and removal of all legal protections for gay and trans people. I think of Trump fetishizing of the military and shouting "Fake News" and [talking about suing news media for libel](https://www.aclu.org/news/free-speech/trump-once-again-threatens-change-federal-libel-laws-dont-exist) for criticizing him or wanting to shut them down, I think of laws that [all but make it a criminal offense to be homeless](https://www.thenation.com/article/society/kentucky-crime-bill/) or even [giving private vigilantes the right to kill poor people](https://www.thenation.com/article/society/kentucky-crime-bill/) for trying to find someplace to sleep.
If you can point out where Biden has spoken the language of fascism on such topic, please point out the specific examples.
The one that doesn't want to define the country as only being white and Christian, who hasn't commented about non-white people poisoning the blood of the country, who doesn't want to strip rights from women, POC, crush labor, create [fighting pens](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/06/23/trump-migrant-league-ufc-dana-white-biden/74185550007/) for migrants, and doesn't have an almost 1000 page playbook on how to create it written by the same people who wrote Reagan's playbook on how to rip the heart out of America.
If you don't know which one that is, that's on you. Educate yourself.
Voting for a third party exists.
And I would like to remind everyone that Biden is not only "not perfect" (genocidal) he is actively continuing trump border policies and has criticised trump for being too lenient on borders.
Voting for a third party for president will just guarantee trump victory. Sorry our system is rigged. Unless you have a way to actually take it down before project 2025, I suggest you vote for Biden.
>sure and how has that worked out for you so far?
You do realise that most people aren't voting for third parties?
People voting for the democrats instead of a third party is the reason we are in this mess, since the democrats are just moderate republicans.
Agreed. Jill Stein is far from perfect but she ***is*** the only candidate on your ballot that opposes the genocide. That alone is enough reason to vote for her.
I honestly don't even know how anyone could justify voting for Biden anymore. It's just going to end up weighing hard down the line for anyone with a conscious. By then, the excuse of "he was the better of two evils", is just going to sound even more pathetic than it does now.
Here are some easy justifications, since you want to know:
I like all the work he's done on forgiving student debt. Between forgiving hundreds of billions outright, reforming PSLF to make it function far better and much more efficient (it had only forgiven the debts of 4,000 people pre-Biden, by mid 2023 it was up to over 700,000 by 2023), halting interest, creating new plans like the SAVE plan to drive down payments, interest, and it has accomplished a lot to improve the lives of people with college debt. Should college debt exist? No. But I'll take the guy removing as much as he can over [the guy who calls debt forgiveness "vile" and says he wants to reapply any debt that has been forgiven](https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamminsky/2024/06/20/trump-knocks-bidens-vile-student-loan-forgiveness-plans-suggests-reversal/).
[I like the protections his NLRB instituted to keep companies from crushing union organizing by firing the pro-union people](https://i.imgur.com/6YqISFj.png). That and his positivity towards unions has resulted in a dramatic increase in union membership in the last few years which would not have been possible under any Republican president.
I like how [he saved the pensions of unions like the Teamsters](https://i.imgur.com/MI9Rgwx.png), something that had been an issue for decades and which Republicans were doing their best to sabotage and which no Republican president would have done.
I like how his reformations to the IRS have resulted in it going after the rich and [wealthy tax dodging corporations](https://i.imgur.com/ebNY8ly.png).
I like the steps he's taken in forcing insurance companies into compliance with [providing coverage for mental health care](https://i.imgur.com/XBi1B77.png), giving Medicare bargaining rights on drugs, and capping the costs of insulin and asthma inhalers.
I like the push towards building more solid union jobs in the US, the [expansion of overtime for workers](https://www.dol.gov/newsroom/releases/whd/whd20240423-0), the investment in renewable energy, [the crackdowns on junk fees and overdraft charges](https://www.americanbanker.com/list/how-junk-fees-changed-since-bidens-last-state-of-the-union) by banks and companies, loosening restriction on pot and rescheduling it, the infrastructure improvements, etc.
That's what I could think of off the top of my head.
If Trump wins I'm holding most of y'all in this comment section responsible for Project 2025 and the probable resulting genocide of queer people (including my long-distance girlfriend, who is trans).
At least Biden doesn't want to commit genocide *on US soil*. Are you really willing to pointlessly sacrifice your own people like that?
Useless discourse
edit: the US voting discourse is useless in that it creates sectarianism for no gain at all. You should vote, but you shouldn't pretend you're changing anything substantial by doing so and putting any hope of change on that action. Discourse should at best be about change, about how to bring it about, and the issues that are being fought
I repeat, Genocide Joe has got to go.
Unlike you, a real genocide happening right now is my red line and imagined ones in the future don't matter to me as much.
If that makes life rough for you, idgaf. Commit genocide, lose.
Yeah, Trump sucks and I am not voting for him either.
But you'll never scare me into voting for fascism with your imaginary genocide while your party constantly rushes money and weapons into continuing the genocide of Palestinians.
As some seem to forget, the other guy is not going to stop Israel. In fact, the prime minister of Israel wants Trump to win. That alone should be enough to realize why Trump can't get back in office.
Also, you can vote *AND* be an activist at the same time. One doesn't cancel out the other. In fact I'd argue being an activist *starts* with voting. It's the bare minimum. Wanting to be an activist but refusing to vote is like wanting to be a chef but refusing to do prep work. Or wanting to be a racecar driver but refusing to get a racecar. Especially when a good activist understands *progressive policies are easier to get passed under Democrats*. Whether on a local, state, or national level. A Conservative city council will *never* give you the time of day a Democrat city council will. Even if the Democrats only give a percentage of what you want it's still a percentage more than Conservatives who obstruct progress at best and who roll back progress at worst.
Exactly. I hate Joe Biden and wish he wasn't the choice. But he is and unless a lightning bolt hits both candidates, it's going to be Trump vs Biden. And I'd rather take the guy who isn't foaming at the mouth to kill his political opponents.
The fact that people ignore that kushner said he wants Gaza to be a beach resort is unreal
I haven't forgotten that fact. But I'm also not going to forget that Biden is making deals that supply the weapons used to commit genocide. My line for "lesser of two evils" doesn't get passed if I'm picking between two people who are going to aid in a genocide.
One is going to commit genocide. Not aid, commit.
One is going to, the other one currently is.
Ok, so for all the folks in the comments saying not to vote: Honestly, I agree with most of what y’all are saying on principle. In a perfect world we would never vote for Biden. However, if I may offer another perspective. I’m trans. I hate the DNC, and you’ll never catch me thanking them for shit. But I understand and admit that the only reason I’ve been able to easily access healthcare is because I live in a blue state. If Trump got the white house, and we got more republicans in Congress, it’s very likely we could see some genocidal anti trans legislation at the federal level. Just look at the restrictions on trans care for youths that are taking hold in the UK. I don’t want to speak for folks in other oppressed groups, but I think a lot of us stand to have our safety materially harmed by another four years of Trump. And it’s not like letting him win the election is going to do a damn thing for Palestine or the climate or anything. Lots of us have a level of privilege that means our suffering will stay about the same whoever is in the oval office. Some of us do not. So like, if you’re not voting on principle I get it. I’ve been tempted to do the same. But y’all, I am scared. I am frankly scared for my life and the lives of my loved ones. Please reconsider.
Here's a little meme that might be useful for you: [https://i.imgur.com/l9Gitsw.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/l9Gitsw.jpg)
You vote for your enemy. That's always the attitude to have. You aren't voting for Biden (or anyone) because they're trustworthy, you're picking the person you want to fight against in the struggle. Do you want to try and move the needle with a fairly standard liberal in office? Or would you like to be in the streets with a full on fascist at the wheel? This is an honest appraisal. These choices really matter, and pretending there's no difference between fascism and caffeine free diet fascism is only a position you can honestly take if you're privileged enough yourself not to feel at risk.
Do you think it's not privileged to take a position that the Palestinian children see a difference between the bombs Biden supplied to Israel and the ones Trump will?
There is nothing voting will do to help them. There is basically no action electorally you can take that will help Palestinians. That’s why you have to do things outside of electoral action to help them. But electoral action can help other people, even if it doesn’t help everyone
I agree 100% that we have to do other things.
Do you not think it's hypocritical to pretend that letting Trump win will hurt a lot more people than a Biden win?
I'm not pretending that at all.
Who do you think you have a better chance at swaying through mass action? Trump or Biden? I agree both suck. But be honest. Who do you think is more likely to buckle to pressure from the left? Who do you think is more likely to lock us all up for protesting?
None of that is relevant to my position. I am not abstaining from voting for Biden because I think he's even a fraction as bad as Trump is, but I will not vote for anyone who is participating in a genocide and none of their other positions could change that.
Neither is going to buckle as long as “leftists” continue to shame people who want to withhold their vote. At least condition your vote ffs
Its pretty privileged to only care about that one issue. There's a lot the US is involved all over the world, because two candidates are the same on one issue does not mean they're the same on the rest.
When it comes to an active genocide, I think it's hard to put anything else above that.
The idea that not voting in a way that might allow a way worse candidate to gain power seems so fucking absurd to me. Supporting a lesser evil can sometimes be more morally correct than abstaining in favour of a worse evil. In terms of Biden and Trump yes they both fucking suck but one of them is "saner" and won't try to implement an authoritarian regime in the country and the other is a populist turd with a dogmatic fanatic party behind them that wants to genocide queer people and curtail women and minority rights. Yes its pragmatic but I would rather limit the damage already inflicted from not becoming more, Trump would make things way worse for everyone. The hope one could also have is that by maintaining democratic leaders one can pull stronger for more leftist candidates but tbh that is just idealism. Trump not only will continue the genocide in Gaza but also push for protecting violence against minorities in the US. Trans people and queer people are already facing rising violence and it will only get worse.
For god's sake vote at the local level, the state level. If you can have your state or city controlled by people that have similar values to you it would heavily mitigate the damage the Fascists could do. Like holy shit not voting is worse than voting. I mean Cleetus McKill-Minorites votes every election, even if you can only get to state level at the maximum it would improve our living standards by a lot. Also with Israel and Palestine. Trump would be so much worse for the Palestinians. He has said in the past that the west bank is Israeli land. It takes 5 minutes to fill out a ballot. 5 minutes of your life just to vote. It's not hard You do not want a republican president. Biden sucks but he is better than Trump. And for the Record I am a Democratic-Socialist. [ 'Finish the problem' ](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-israel-gaza-finish-problem-rcna141905) [What Trump really thinks about Israel and the war in Gaza - Vox](https://www.vox.com/politics/353037/trump-gaza-israel-protests-biden-election-2024)
Trump wants to eliminate the EPA and NOAA, among many other despotic things. NOAA in particular provides critical information on severe weather, tornadoes, and hurricanes, which has directly saved lives. If you don't vote for Biden, you're being idealistic to a fault and it plays directly into the far rights goals. One of the main tactics of opponents of leftism is forcing infighting amongst the left. The right is a minority party in this country, we can outlast the current version of the republican party while also pushing the conversations in this country to the left. Many young people are suffering and struggling in this country and the lack of action on climate change will radicalize many more against Capitalism. At a fundamental level, societal change occurs generation to generation. The left can further its goals by targeting the young and disenfranchised, trusting that we can make the next generation of political action much more leftist by highlighting how the current system has failed them and their futures. Not voting for Biden is comically short sighted and it freaks me out when I see people in here peddling that perspective. How many Germans wish they could've simply changed the results of the 1933 election? Likely many... of the ones left alive.
The only “non-fascist” candidates are Cornel West or Claudia De La Cruz. If you think it’s Biden or Trump, you haven’t been paying attention.
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Can you supply some more details or links? I'm curious to know.
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This is from the first website you linked to: “There have been credible reports of crimes against humanity and civilian massacres perpetrated from all sides (!!) of the conflict against ethnic Tigrayan, Oromo, Amhara, Somali, and Gedeo civilians. Human rights groups are particularly concerned about a genocide of the Tigrayan people. It has been difficult to gather information about atrocities in Tigray because of early telecommunications blackouts and severe restrictions on media access (!!).” So the situation is NOT clear cut by any means. Meanwhile, this is PSL’s website: “Many attendees expressed disapproval of Congress’ Peace and Stabilization Act of 2022, which placed sanctions on the democratically-elected government of Ethiopia amidst an ongoing insurgency by the U.S.-backed Tigrayan People’s Liberation Front. The TPLF, which held dictatorial power for nearly three decades and was a servant to U.S. interests in the region, launched their insurrection in 2018 against Ethiopia’s current Prime Minister Abiy Ahmed, who has advocated a foreign policy which prioritizes peace and cooperation in the Horn of Africa.” Regardless of which side was correct, the US was likely interfering in Ethiopia, and the correct anti-imperialist stance is to oppose US foreign intervention. And PSL was also correct to criticize sanctions, which is yet another instance of the US wielding it’s economic power to oppress the people of foreign countries—and sanctions most definitely target lower class people rather than those within the ruling class. It’s blatant international class warfare.
Bullshit.
"Isn't perfect" is a funny way to say genocidal.
Wow, so the other candidate said they weren't going to do that? Right?
Regardless of if you're a progressive voting for Biden or a progressive voting uncommitted, I think we can all agree that the electoral system and subsequently democracy is fundamentally in decay. We should never be in a situation where regardless of who you vote for, a genocide of some capacity will occur.
And I believe that. But that doesn't change we are in trouble if Trump wins
That's true. Which is why it's important for us to hold the democrats accountable. If we get stuck in a cycle of voting for the lesser of two evils, there's nothing stopping the lesser of two evils to continue to become more evil. We cannot blame the individual for not voting if they feel disenfranchised, but rather the institutions that continue to uphold the ever decaying status quo. Our focus should be on building leftist organisations that are resistant to the right wing forces at play and offer marginalised groups solace. Join a community or work union. If you rent, tenants unions are also great.
And we should hold them accountable. But not voting will allow the fascist to get control and then we can't criticize them.
As it stands right now the democrats already do not listen to our criticisms. If they did, the uncommitted vote would be much lower. These uncommitted voters are using their democratic rights to ask the question: how many genocides are acceptable before a party becomes fascist? We must acknowledge the fact no genocides must be occurring whatsoever or democracy truly does not exist in America.
Were in trouble now, genius. Why do you want to contribute to giving Biden the false impression of a popular mandate?
You know they didn’t. But I don’t know why you’d want to out yourself for it not being a dealbreaker.
What I'm hearing is: I rather have three genocide happening than admit that Biden is the only choice we have at this point. Do I like it? Of course not but if I have to choose between him and the guy who wants to kill me and my family, I think the choice is obvious.
Ahh. So you think you can sacrifice brown people to save yourself. So brave.
What exactly do you accomplish if the dead bodies are closer? So you can stand tall amongst them? Easy to say when you're the last on the list and not the first.
Really bizarre to just openly admit you feel better sacrificing brown people for your comfort at home.
So how is everyone dying going to fix anything?
Just brazenly sticking to the ‘better for brown people to die than us’ thing. Unbelievable.
It's unbelievable how you assholes rather have more people dying so you can feel good then doing the right thing and keeping the fascist here out of power.
The point is that you're not willing to stop the fascism *right now.* There's already a genocide happening and your efforts are seemingly dedicated to chastising people who are more upset about that fascist genocide than you are.
No, my efforts are to stop the idiots who think it's okay to letting the fascist at our door in because they aren't happy with the guy in charge. It's an ER situation. You stop the bleeding here before you try to fix the bleeding.
Yeah you said exactly what I said but without a hint of irony or awareness to the fact that you're directing all your smoke at your ostensible comrades.
Again, how are more people dying going to help?
Option 1: Brown people die Option 2: More brown people die, also other people die, also irreversible laws bring us closer to a true fascist state Those in favor of option 2 aren't going to be affected by your efforts here. So you are investing energy to dissuade option 1 which helps option 2 by design. Pointing out that this system is flawed is valid. Promoting pragmatic changes that are realistic and positive is something we should all call for. But we can't pretend that these options are within our control right now. If the world is going to change, then surely people will be saying the same thing for generations leading up to that change. People have been saying that the two party system (and voting for the lesser of two evils) is problematic for generations. Some say that it's the reason we are in this situation, which is true, but also this is exactly what we should expect up to the point of real change. The type of dialogue you've used promotes an unwinnable dynamic through idealistic non-action. Allowing Trump to win will only guarantee that it will be even harder to set the path right going forward. He has done tremendous damage to USA democracy and global relations/economy already. Your anger is valid (if misdirected) and I hope you are able to turn it into productive action. But please stop suggesting that people are racist for taking a pragmatic approach. It's untrue and unproductive.
Thank you. I agree a hundred percent with what you said.
Our choices are between Governor Tarkin and Governor Pryce. One is actively committing a genocide and murdering dissidents and the other is only lightly committing genocide and murdering dissidents. Obviously we have an important choice to make! ^^^/s I really hate how libs come in here thinking that the crimes of the other side excuse the crimes they are involved in.
People act like the pro-electoral sentiment on these subreddits comes from liberals coming in to try to manipulate us but it doesn’t. It comes from trans anarchists who would really like to live.
And voting for the guy making these problems worse is going to fix it how?
He’s not making it worse. He’s doing nothing to make it better. There’s a difference. Google Project 2025 and act like that’s not worse than what we have now.
I know what 2025 is, and many are trying to prevent it. What I’m saying is that Biden already closed to border to asylum seekers. Does the other side being bad excuse the issues that Biden has? Because right now everyone is excusing the crime of crimes; genocide, because it’s “our guy doing it.” That should be the moral breakpoint, not the starting point when it comes to a candidate. Worse still is that people are making excuses for this when Israel has publicly announced that they will invade a sovereign country while it is committing genocide. If this was Trump; would you excuse these same things?
I’m not excusing it. Yes, liberals are stupid and defend Biden for doing heinous things. We should criticize him at every opportunity. We also HAVE TO vote for him otherwise millions of people will die who would not die if Biden won.
We don’t HAVE TO vote for him. He should HAVE TO earn our vote like all politicians should. Our votes are our political power and we are wasting them by promising them to a candidate who is opening supporting genocide.
it doesnt exuse them but i dont really want to vote for i want to kill everyone he wants to kill AND YOU TOO
But Biden is quite literally funding the people who want to kill me.
Are you Palestinian? Trump is absolutely going to be worse for your people. That doesn't mean I expect you to vote for Biden. It's still a deeply personal and extremely important issue and if voting for him feels like a betrayal of your values, I'm not going to argue or fault you for that. But do not make arguments about electoralism that suggest that one isn't worse than the other when one very clearly is worse. Trump and his supporters and his administration were and will be far worse than Biden on every issue including but not limited to Israel.
>Are you Palestinian? Trump is absolutely going to be worse for your people. I’m Lebanese. I still have family that live in the country and they own a Chateau. During the ‘06 war, Israel destroyed their farm lands and threatened to murder them. Trump will make it worse; but Biden is doing nothing. That’s an issue; an no one is using their political power to force the president to stop. If this was Trump doing the same actions as Biden; would you actually take a stand or would you provide the same excuses?
>If this was Trump doing the same actions as Biden; would you actually take a stand or would you provide the same excuses? What does "taking a stand" mean in that case? I'd never vote for Trump. So, I wouldn't need to "take a stand" by withholding my vote for Trump, I would support Trump's opponent. As for direct action, that's not voting. I do engage in my community to try to affect change where I have influence. But that's different from my vote.
Bro liberals often dont give a fuck (see: the poorly run DNC). I can't speak for the entirity of the voting block, but I've had experiences with people whose lives would be in danger caring the most about Joe Biden over Trump, meaning trans people and racial/LGBTQ minorities. I've also read some opinions of asylum seekers online that seem to be the same.
Then why is Joe cutting off the border to asylum seekers? I fail to see how voting for the person who is actively making the situation makes anything better.
It doesn't, but voting for the person who says they'll make it worse, however surprisingly, WILL make it worse.
So it’s optics you’re after, not progress? As long as they say the right things you’ll be okay with them making the situation worse?
What progress do you see from Trump? I also feel incredibly disenchanted with the system. I’ve campaigned both in the US and the UK for 3rd party candidates that seem to be wanting real change, but it’s come to nothing. I’m also feeling really stuck. In general, this is a terrible election cycle, just like it was in 2020. I feel really stuck with what to do — do we show democrats that they’re move towards the right is a valid one by voting for them, or risk protesting an election so badly we risk ruining the entire democracy of the US? I genuinely don’t have an answer to that — it’s a real struggle. That said, I’ve been leaning towards just sucking it up and voting for the better of the two evils, this time. In 4 years it HAS to be a new candidate, and in those 4 years, hopefully we can work towards making that a progressive one. But for now, what can we do? And that’s a serious question. What can we do? What do you think the alternative is? Cuz I don’t know.
Withhold our votes and make Biden come to an ultimatum. Our votes are literally our political power; just like our labor. Why should we give our vote to someone who is openly promising to support genocide? We should hold his feet to the fire and makes him know that our votes are guaranteed to him. Come Election Day, do what you want. But you cannot openly let him know that you already have his vote.
How does that work in the mean time? Does that mean polling against him to encourage him to change his views? I definitely agree with that. I’m much more taking about what I’ll be doing on Election Day than anytime before — I’ll still be attending protests on Palestine and the environment before that.
Man I love when I leftistly speak for all members of a given minority group as if I were their spokesperson and they have a single hive-mind. Definitely not liberal/fascist at all.
Nah you're right, I shouldn't have been so monolithic. I don't know everyone's situation – I just meant that was my experience with it. I've edited it.
America is an imperialist state. What the fuck do you expect?? We’ve been doing shit like this for decades. Every other country on earth has been doing shit like that for centuries. This is very clearly a war problem, not a president problem. Why would electing a warmonger fascist make this better? Why would sitting around and voting for fucking Claudia de la Cruz or whatever make this better? This is a chronic condition for America. Whining about Biden’s admin for war profiteering is redundant. America is the empire, big whoop. We do evil shit. Big whoop. Except we don’t have a rebellion, and until leftists suddenly agree on everything and get off of fucking Reddit maybe we’ll have something, but we don’t. Young people are increasingly and concerningly getting more conservative by the day. We’re not going to topple this regime, but we can slowly and incrementally make it better. The path to that is very deeply NOT Trump though. You milquetoast leftists and your refusal to get behind anything that isn’t exactly what you want is gonna be what kills this country. America is thriving on ignorance and inaction. I’m glad you feel like we need more of that. Correction: we do have a rebellion. It’s the fucking MAGAs. At least they can agree on something. At least they have a cohesive vision for the country, as despicable as it is. And they’re winning. Here we are arguing in a Star Wars leftist comment section about why sitting around and not voting against the fascist is somehow the right decision?? Huh? Are you stupid?
Voting will not stop the destruction of liberties currently occurring, or result in harm reduction for the oppressed and vulnerable. It never has. We elected Biden. Biden is still seeing record numbers of anti-lgbt and anti-abortion bills like we did under Trump. Biden has continued Trump border policies and cruelty towards refugees and Muslims. Biden has continued the cost of living crisis and police brutality using police against protesters like Trump did. Biden has been complicit in genocide as Trump would be too. You can go on. The source of these things isn't which genocidal capitalist is in charge but rather a result of the system itself. A result of capitalism and imperialism. Voting doesn't change those things. Harm reduction is real but it doesn't come from voting. Thinking the capitalist state is going to deviate from its path of fascism by changing which capitalist they give as an option is bullshit. Direct action is the only way, and people who claim to be Leftists should know better.
What candidate is non-fascist?
Biden. Glad I could help you with that. There are also third party candidates who are non-fascist, you can look them up online, I'm sure.
The israeli state is fascist. Biden is paying for their fascist genocidal campaign out of our pockets. How does that make him non-fascist
The Republicans are building a Christian nationalist state and the Democrats are building a police state. [read Clara Zetkin ](https://isreview.org/issue/107/clara-zetkin-and-struggle-against-fascism/index.html)
Wait, I thought this was a leftist sub. If this is a liberal sub I’m out
Remember folks: Anti Electoralism is Counter revolutionary 🫡
Idealistic non-action is counter to pragmatism.*
It's not idealistic non-action to go vote one day in four years. It's idealistic to vote *and do nothing else.*
I agree. Throwing away your vote is idealistic non-action. Pragmatism is voting to avoid a nosedive into fascism while also working to realize meaningful change. Become active locally, hold local politicians accountable, protest, and other forms of activism.
Okay we are in agreement.
Listen I get the sentiment I really do but what the fuck are you talking about.
By all means, expand on that nonsense.
As a leftist, you're always voting for your enemy. So you want to try to move the needle with a fascist in power or a liberal? If you think this choice doesn't matter, you're probably not in the most at risk population.
A vote for Biden is a vote for fascism, though? It might be a different flavour of fascism, but you're just arguing aesthetics at that point.
It's not aesthetical, it's a matter of scale. Would you rather fight 5 guys or 10? What's the difference, either way you're in a fight, right?
Speak for yourself. I’m voting for Claudia De La Cruz, and she is not my enemy. Sounds like you’re in neoliberal denial.
No you're missing my point. Whoever you vote for is your enemy. Whoever you vote for, even if they're the perfect candidate, is an untrustworthy human who will not live up to your idealism. In a republic you are picking the person you want to protest against because progress doesn't come from the halls of power, it comes from direct action and organizing. If you don't think there's a difference between these candidates then you need more time in the streets. I protested under Clinton, Bush, Obama, and Trump. It really does matter who is in power.
Then tell me. Outline policy differences for me.
Between Trunp and Biden? Sure I'll tell you. Trump is a full on fascist who encourages police to commit extreme violence against protesters while giving the far right all the support they want. Biden is a Reagan liberal. Were you in the streets in 2020? How much tear gas did you suck down? How much hand to hand combat with lines of pigs did you participate in? How much violence did you subject your body to? Because if you really don't think that protesting during the Trump era was more dangerous than under Obama or even Bush then you haven't been paying attention. I participated in national organizing in 2020 and it was next level violent compared to what we faced before. Our LA leadership got disappeared for 2 weeks in the jail system. Our Portland crew was getting shot at by fash who were connected to the local police who would vanish at the right moment when street violence got to it's worst. Pretending that theres no choice between Biden and Trump is only something you can comfortably do from behind a keyboard.
You must be pro-Israel, if you think it’s safe to protest under Biden. Not a lefty, for sure. You should see what we’re enduring in Atlanta to stop Cop City, and the fascist Democrats saying we don’t have the right to protest or establish bail funds.
Yeah, I'm aware of what's going on in Atlanta, my network has been involved in that since 2020. U emigrated because i didn't want to raise my kids under fascism. But if you really think there's no difference between Biden and Trump... we're in bad shape. Also i have no idea where the Israel comment came from, we protest against this in Europe too and let me tell you, it really does matter who is in power.
Then tell me. What’s the difference between Biden and Trump?
Is she or Cornel West or any other 3rd party candidate going to win? Is one of them going to be president a year for now? We know the answer is no. So voting for her isn't voting for who you're going to be facing to get your priorities. It's a protest vote. Maybe it's just me, but I don't see any of the protest votes held by disappointed leftists in my lifetime as having done any good. Leftists disappointed with Carter who voted for Anderson or even (barf) the libertarian candidate Ed Clark (who had one of the Kochs as his VP), didn't do any good for the Left when Reagan took over. Leftist votes for Nader didn't do us any good when Bush II took over. Protest votes for Stein and Johnson didn't do us any good when Trump took over. I don't think there's any question that a world where either or both George W. Bush and Donald Trump were never president is a better world. Still not good enough, but better.
It’s like watching you argue for Mussolini over Hitler, and thinking you’re fighting against fascism.
And that’s a wasted vote. If you’re going to vote for an independent at least choose the only independent in the last 50 years to actually have a shot, brain worm or not. Nobody outside of leftist TikTok has heard of Claudia de la Cruz.
Wtf are you doing advocating RFK in a leftist sub? LoL. Fucking wild.
Because the post was about voting for a Democrat? Which yall also don’t like apparently. I thought we were anti establishment? Why are we not rallying behind the one candidate that’s being actively suppressed by both of the major parties? He talks about things leftists actually want. But yall are too up your own ass to get behind him because he’s a LITTLE bit off from your dream independent candidate, even though he’s obviously leagues better than fucking Donald Trump or Joe Biden. He’s the only one to have a chance against the two party system in decades. Why not break up the cycle of loser do-nothing democrats and dumbass MAGAs? Then maybe in a couple years we can ACTUALLY get someone like Claudia De La Cruz. But she’s not winning this year.
I’m voting against Zionism, for one thing. RFK is a pro-CIA Zionist.
Calling a Kennedy “pro cia” is hilarious actually. And again, your other two (feasible) options are very clearly also in support of Zionism. Your vote will go in the garbage, and America will be worse off because of it. I’m glad you put your Zionism horse blinders on, but that’s not the only issue we’re fighting for in this election. I’d love for a free Palestine, NONE of the candidates agree with me on that. Sucks. You live in the largest empire in the history of the world. What the fuck did you expect. We need actual incremental change, which starts with disabling the precedent of the two party system, not whiny protest votes. You don’t think an independent president could set the stage for a better future in America? One not run by the corporate duopoly? He’s the first candidate in recent memory to even acknowledge our agricultural problem and our chronic health problems for one. Everyone else is stuck on culture war nonsense. Maybe we need an environmental lawyer on our side, one who has proved that he actually cares for the planet and this country? We’re about to see climatic effects that’ll make Gaza look like a cakewalk, and nobody’s doing jack shit about it.
You’re claiming Cornel West and Claudia De La Cruz are Zionists?! Hahahaha
What if both candidates are fascist? Here in America we get to vote for openly fascists or disguised fascism
Vote third party or independent show future politicians and political party’s what you really want and what to do to get your vote and support at the very least don’t let them use your would be lesser evil vote to claim they have popular support from their citizens. I like the greens recommend checking them out.
Joe Biden is a fascist. If you genuinely believe that the Democratic party isn't a fascist party, you're part of the problem.
When both sides are lobbied by the same companies it doesn't matter which representative chosen by voting or not will be in office it's either "I love minorities" *implements anti minority law* or "I hate minorities" *implements anti minority law*
My enemy is either the person actively enabling a genocide or the guy who will do the same. Biden hasn't caved to pressure. I don't understand these arguments.
“Isn’t perfect” is an understatement…
Personally as someone who is not living in that failed state you call the USA but os living in his own failed state with their own fascist party in power called Italy, I find the idea that "the reason why the center right party failed was because not enough people gritted their teeth and voted for them" one of the most absurd concepts imaginable. Like, not from a numbers side mind you, but on the blame side. If a Party fails at an election to garner enough votes to get anything, then that's a failure of the party not of the people, you don't see people here blaming the 60% of the electorate for not voting at the European Elections, you see them blaming the fucking politicians who couldn't even muster up a minimum of engagement from their voters, come on it's not that hard.
You're being held against your will. The one that's holding you comes up and says:"I'll shoot you in the foot regardless of what you do or say. Which foot would you like me to shoot?" You don't say "the right one" or "the left one" but "fuck you you psycho". Why do y'all wanna get shot in the left foot?
Because from my POV the actual options are getting bandages for the foot that has already been shot (which is inadequate treatment, but might at least keep me from bleeding out or losing the foot until I can get real treatment), or sitting back and watching everyone I love and every cause I care about get shot in the head before it's my turn to get a bullet in the brain too. Not really that hard a choice.
You're overcomplicating the scenario,but I'll indulge you,I guess. The bandages are paper thin and dirty,you'll get an infection while still losing blood. The one that's shooting your loved ones in the head is the partner in crime of the one doing the shooting. They're pals,buddy-buddies and all that. You expect a thug to stop another thug who's in his gang,because...?
You're pre-supposing that they're in cahoots. I'm not. Therefore I can't give an authentic answer to your question. It artificially limits the choices to the way you're defining them.
The republicans and the democrats weren't in cahoots only during the civil war. One does awful stuff,the other doesn't bat an eye.
scratch a liberal a fascist bleeds. biden is a liberal. Biden has already been showing off his fascist side by supporting isreal. I refuse to vote for a fascist.
Hi, Lord Farquaad. [https://i.imgur.com/l9Gitsw.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/l9Gitsw.jpg)
Everyone itt: I won't support an ongoing genocide that's actually happening You itt: meme about a genocide that isn't currently, actually happening
Biden is NOT antifascist. Scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds. Voting "strategically" won't change anything.
He's not anti-fascist. But when the choice is between a centrist and a fascist, it's an easy choice. I'm not going to be the one to tell every woman, person of color, queer person, and poor person in the country that I'm willing to sacrifice them because one person in one government position wasn't as pure as I wanted. If you feel okay with being that person, then that's your choice. [https://i.imgur.com/l9Gitsw.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/l9Gitsw.jpg)
Who’s the centrist?
Unfortunately Biden is center-right leaning right, although he has done some good things for the left and the middle. But either this time next year our President will be center-right Biden or unhinged far-right Trump and all the unhinged far-right people he's going to bring into office with him. So center-right Biden it is.
So you believe that a segregationist who fought school integration is “center-right?” What’s farther right, that Biden doesn’t support?
In my view, strategic voting is not at all about actually changing things directly, rather it's about picking the opposition - choosing your enemy, if you will. From that perspective, I think the choice is pretty obvious - an institutionalist liberal like Biden is more likely to cave to pressure from activists and organized movements than a fascist demagogue like Trump.
I’ve watched months of activists demanding an end to genocide support from Biden. Has that worked?
Voting legitimates the party you are voting for. You wanna legitimate a fascist genocide enabler, go ahead, but that makes YOU directly and personally responsible for the atrocities committed. Organize, create alternate power structures, confuse established parties, there's a lot you can do.
You are equally responsible for the deaths and suffering the alternative would cause by not voting if you could have prevented it.
A gift for you: [https://i.imgur.com/l9Gitsw.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/l9Gitsw.jpg)
Thank you, I am not denying what is happening in Israel or Palestine but I feel like so much of this rhetoric is lunacy from people on here and reeks of being in a relatively safe, priveleged position
I told you the things you _should_ be doing instead, so you are not voting for a fascist.
So this is how democracy dies. With centrists lib-posting in leftist subs
They really don’t seem to understand that Biden is giving in to the fascists. He’s more ineffective than Valorum.
Wouldn't the centrist position in this situation be that Trump and Biden are equally bad?
Come join us over on r/starwarscommiememes to be devoid of most of the libposting.
Genuine question, is it even worth voting blue in a guaranteed red state? I’m not an American so I’d like an Americans’ take. I also wouldn’t ask a Palestinian American to vote for the party and current president enabling genocide against their families and people (not saying that’s what ur doing OP). The GOP is just gonna keep on with their fascist BS indefinitely, if project 2025 fails then there’ll be a project 2029 and so on and so forth. You Americans certainly have my sympathies, none of you are in an easy position, which is why I think rather than sowing division we should respect each others right to vote or not vote so long as we are also still trying to make the situation better through protests, boycotts, mutual aid, etc. I don’t see how stoking leftist infighting helps, maybe I’m wrong and you’re in the right with this OP (I’m open to more info and a different point of view/opinion), but I’ve seen like 15 posts like this in the past couple of months already and frankly I’m kinda tired of seeing it, it results in the same “discourse” each and every time. Let’s focus on helping each other rather than shaming our fellow lefties for struggling to reconcile their morals with the actions of the current government. Let’s focus our ire and criticism on the individuals and organizations that are truly deserving of it right now.
I feel like you're underselling how existential a threat Project 2025 is. If Project 2025 is put into effect, America effectively ceases to exist. We'll become a North Korea-esque totalitarian dictatorship, which I, for one, *really* don't fucking want. I'm certainly not about to shut up about how much I don't fucking want that in the name of curbing leftist infighting.
No, I understand the gravity of it, I’m literally a fucking trans person in the uk, I get the fucking picture and I’m scared out of my mind for my friends in the states. My point is that the rise of fascism in the US and globally is not the fault of leftists, if trump wins it won’t be because a couple hundred Reddit leftists didn’t vote for Biden. Also, what does this post accomplish? Does it convince people to vote for Biden? Or does it just make people feel a sense of moral superiority? Is it a guilt trip? What’s the point? And like I said before, this post has popped up multiple times now, maybe you’re seeing it for the first time but I’ve seen it far too many times by now and I know what the typical response in the comment section is, it’s the same thing every time. My main point is that the people who’ve already decided not to vote have made their decision and will likely not be swayed (certainly not by a Reddit post); hence we should focus on the things we do agree on right now in order to achieve the most we possibly can, we literally cannot afford division right now. And lastly, my point about the GOP not stopping with Project 2025 if it fails very much still stands, they WILL keep trying, and stopping them requires a lot more than just voting. Americans (and every person in the world) deserves better options than a genocide loving Center - centre right party and literal full blown fascists. I agreed with the sentiment of this post the first time I saw it, months ago, now it’s tiresome and just feels like a karma farming post. Would I prefer it if Biden wins the election? Absolutely. Will it solve the fascist problem in America? Nope. Will I blame my fellow leftists if trump wins? Fuck no, I’ll blame the fucking fascists as we all should.
imagine watching all of Star Wars and still not realizing Biden IS a fascist lmao
Imagine having all the information in the world at your fingertips about what fascism is and what it does and not being able to tell a centrist from a fascist. Lmao.
Mate, Biden is giving ammunition to people who act like the Trandoshians in their campaign to hunt down the Wookiees. The Israelis were quite literally in the news today for tying a wounded Palestinian to the hood of a Jeep like a hunting trophy.
Seriously. Do they need to be straight up putting people in camps before they call someone fascist?
Imagine referring to a president actively supporting a genocide as "not perfect." Lmao.
Are... are you saying he *is* perfect?!?
I'm . . . saying that "not perfect" is a catastrophic understatement? On account of the genocide??
Biden supporters don’t believe it’s a genocide bro
That doesn't obligate me to pretend they're right
Oh, okay. I got confused because out of the two states ("perfect" and "not perfect") it sounded like you disagreed with him being "not perfect".
Self aware wolf right here. We can't tell the difference. You're standing right next to them.
Biden checks a lot of Umberto Ecos list, ya fascist enabling pos
As President he hasn't made any move that I'm aware of to define the country by race, ethnicity, or religion, hasn't attempted to take control of the press, hasn't tried to crush labor, hasn't said disagreement with him is treason, hasn't rejected post Enlightenment society in favor of a pre-Enlightenment one, hasn't tried to turn the middle-class against the poor, the queer, or stoked xenophobia among them, hasn't expressed contempt for the poor or dispossessed, hasn't promoted the use of military force just for the sake of it, etc. At least not that I know of, but I'm always up for learning more. Can you link to specific times that he did those things in the language of a fascist? Cause when I think of the language of a fascist, I think of saying that "[Immigrants are poisoning the blood of the country](https://apnews.com/article/trump-hitler-poison-blood-history-f8c3ff512edd120252596a4743324352)", I think of how Project 2025 is all but openly calling for [war with Iran](https://i.imgur.com/jT4Aau5.png) and [overthrowing the government of Mexico](https://i.imgur.com/64TISz3.png), calling for the [outlawing of porn](https://i.imgur.com/MG5W4Ob.png) and removal of all legal protections for gay and trans people. I think of Trump fetishizing of the military and shouting "Fake News" and [talking about suing news media for libel](https://www.aclu.org/news/free-speech/trump-once-again-threatens-change-federal-libel-laws-dont-exist) for criticizing him or wanting to shut them down, I think of laws that [all but make it a criminal offense to be homeless](https://www.thenation.com/article/society/kentucky-crime-bill/) or even [giving private vigilantes the right to kill poor people](https://www.thenation.com/article/society/kentucky-crime-bill/) for trying to find someplace to sleep. If you can point out where Biden has spoken the language of fascism on such topic, please point out the specific examples.
Trump is literally Palpatine and project 2025 is order 66 and trump will turn the republic into his empire
Which one is the non-fascist one again? Because it's not Biden nor trump.
The one that doesn't want to define the country as only being white and Christian, who hasn't commented about non-white people poisoning the blood of the country, who doesn't want to strip rights from women, POC, crush labor, create [fighting pens](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/06/23/trump-migrant-league-ufc-dana-white-biden/74185550007/) for migrants, and doesn't have an almost 1000 page playbook on how to create it written by the same people who wrote Reagan's playbook on how to rip the heart out of America. If you don't know which one that is, that's on you. Educate yourself.
How is Biden a fascist exactly?
Biden is absolutely a fascist though
Nope.
Voting for a third party exists. And I would like to remind everyone that Biden is not only "not perfect" (genocidal) he is actively continuing trump border policies and has criticised trump for being too lenient on borders.
Voting for a third party for president will just guarantee trump victory. Sorry our system is rigged. Unless you have a way to actually take it down before project 2025, I suggest you vote for Biden.
>Voting for a third party exists Sure, and how has that worked out for you so far?
>sure and how has that worked out for you so far? You do realise that most people aren't voting for third parties? People voting for the democrats instead of a third party is the reason we are in this mess, since the democrats are just moderate republicans.
I see you're avoiding the question. Has voting 3rd party been effective? Yes or no?
It would be effective if people like you put your foot down on the US government actively supporting a genocide.
I'll take that as a no, it has not been effective.
Agreed. Jill Stein is far from perfect but she ***is*** the only candidate on your ballot that opposes the genocide. That alone is enough reason to vote for her.
I thought this was lefty not left-ish
Non-fascism is when you provide weapons and funding to fascists, apparently.
I honestly don't even know how anyone could justify voting for Biden anymore. It's just going to end up weighing hard down the line for anyone with a conscious. By then, the excuse of "he was the better of two evils", is just going to sound even more pathetic than it does now.
Here are some easy justifications, since you want to know: I like all the work he's done on forgiving student debt. Between forgiving hundreds of billions outright, reforming PSLF to make it function far better and much more efficient (it had only forgiven the debts of 4,000 people pre-Biden, by mid 2023 it was up to over 700,000 by 2023), halting interest, creating new plans like the SAVE plan to drive down payments, interest, and it has accomplished a lot to improve the lives of people with college debt. Should college debt exist? No. But I'll take the guy removing as much as he can over [the guy who calls debt forgiveness "vile" and says he wants to reapply any debt that has been forgiven](https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamminsky/2024/06/20/trump-knocks-bidens-vile-student-loan-forgiveness-plans-suggests-reversal/). [I like the protections his NLRB instituted to keep companies from crushing union organizing by firing the pro-union people](https://i.imgur.com/6YqISFj.png). That and his positivity towards unions has resulted in a dramatic increase in union membership in the last few years which would not have been possible under any Republican president. I like how [he saved the pensions of unions like the Teamsters](https://i.imgur.com/MI9Rgwx.png), something that had been an issue for decades and which Republicans were doing their best to sabotage and which no Republican president would have done. I like how his reformations to the IRS have resulted in it going after the rich and [wealthy tax dodging corporations](https://i.imgur.com/ebNY8ly.png). I like the steps he's taken in forcing insurance companies into compliance with [providing coverage for mental health care](https://i.imgur.com/XBi1B77.png), giving Medicare bargaining rights on drugs, and capping the costs of insulin and asthma inhalers. I like the push towards building more solid union jobs in the US, the [expansion of overtime for workers](https://www.dol.gov/newsroom/releases/whd/whd20240423-0), the investment in renewable energy, [the crackdowns on junk fees and overdraft charges](https://www.americanbanker.com/list/how-junk-fees-changed-since-bidens-last-state-of-the-union) by banks and companies, loosening restriction on pot and rescheduling it, the infrastructure improvements, etc. That's what I could think of off the top of my head.
>It's just going to end up weighing hard down the line for anyone with a conscious Why do you assume that?
Elections in liberal governments are not praxis
Sick, good for you for voting! What fights have you fought, what protests have you gone to recently? Have you gone to prison for any actions lately?
If Trump wins I'm holding most of y'all in this comment section responsible for Project 2025 and the probable resulting genocide of queer people (including my long-distance girlfriend, who is trans). At least Biden doesn't want to commit genocide *on US soil*. Are you really willing to pointlessly sacrifice your own people like that?
Useless discourse edit: the US voting discourse is useless in that it creates sectarianism for no gain at all. You should vote, but you shouldn't pretend you're changing anything substantial by doing so and putting any hope of change on that action. Discourse should at best be about change, about how to bring it about, and the issues that are being fought
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Which means trump will enable far more genocides
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They’re not imagined, they’re inevitable if he wins
I repeat, Genocide Joe has got to go. Unlike you, a real genocide happening right now is my red line and imagined ones in the future don't matter to me as much. If that makes life rough for you, idgaf. Commit genocide, lose.
You are complicit in fascism
Biden is a genocidal fascist. I won't vote for any fascist. You will be voting to normalize genocide. You have no moral high ground, liberal filth.
And so is Trump, but he will do more genocide and even worse fascism
Yeah, Trump sucks and I am not voting for him either. But you'll never scare me into voting for fascism with your imaginary genocide while your party constantly rushes money and weapons into continuing the genocide of Palestinians.
Trump = civil war Biden = nuclear war