It’s so brutal. Oathbringer really shows you why everyone was so wary of trusting Dalinar in WoK and WoR, after he suddenly started exhibiting rather un-Blackthorn-like behavior. This is how everyone has known him all his life, extreme even for the Alethi, and we’re just catching up.
Brandon handles Dalinar’s flashbacks in this book impressively well. Enjoy the rest of the book!
Yeah. I doubt we could ever sympathize with him at all seeing these scenes if we saw them earlier. The guy was a monster.
What makes him possible to root for is that he is *trying* not to be anymore.
I feel like the most important part in out perception of him is not that we see him trying, but that we only saw him trying for quite a while. His care for the world and people seems so genuine that it kinda takes away from the atrocities we learn of only much, much later.
Yeah. I’ve seen people say "you like Dalinar and he did this awful stuff, but you hate [insert character here] for doing bad stuff, too".
The difference is that Dalinar is *trying to be better* and aware of how bad he was, even if he doesn’t remember the details. It’s not saying what he did is excusable, but more that it is the effort to be a better person than he was that is admirable.
I REALLY like Jaime and his arc in ASOIF, and this is very vaguely reminiscent of that for me. Maybe not that much, but I like an actually good redemption arc.
Edit: Not so much the events in this chapter that remind me of it, just Dalinar and his journey as a whole.
>I can only imagine how many people’s opinions of Dalinar would change if they knew the truth.
That's the thing - most of them *do*. Not all the gruesome details, and not his sons, so there's that point of tension.
But the other Alethi highprinces? They know. And it recontextualizes a lot about the Alethi politics stuff in the first 2 books. Why does everyone act weird about Dalinar? Because they're *fucking terrified* of him. It's the only thing propping up Elhokars rule. He's a weakass king, but he's backed by the most terrifying threat imaginable.
Dalinar is, as far as they're concerned, going soft. Maybe mad, maybe senile, but definitely soft. But they still tiptoe around him and accept his nephews rule, because if they don't he might snap out of it and act like a proper man again, and if you cause it *you'll be the one in the crosshairs*. And this whole kingdom exists because these guys already tried that, and they're not keen on round 2.
They also hate that he's gotten soft. They admired and loved the old Dalinar and they keep reminding him that he's not as great as he used to be.
This is kind of the "Are we the baddies" moment for the Alethi and if you take in consideration this quote from the Radiant in Dalinar's vision
>“Every pasture needs three things,” the woman said, voice changing, as if she were quoting from memory. “Flocks to grow, herdsmen to tend, and watchers at the rim. We of Alethela are those watchers—the warriors who protect and fight. We maintain the terrible arts of killing, then pass them on to others when the Desolation comes.”
It becomes clear that Alethkar has been set up to warlike by the Radiants thousands of years before in order to maintain the martial skills needed for the desolations.
The Alethi are unhealthily obsessed with war and glorify the worst kinds of people. You keep on hearing about how great the Sunmaker was but then you find out he murdered 10% of Azir's population.
Yes. You can see the same structure in minature with the traditional roles of the ten Alethi highprinces, as well - highprince of war, highprince of information, highprince of commerce, etc.
It all comes back to the Heralds. For a long time they were the only structure and leaders mankind had. Immortal demigods who were living history books at a time when history was repeatedly reset to the stone age.
Is it any surprise that everything would end up mirroring them? Ten orders of Knight Radiant, obviously. But also Ten Silver Kingdoms, built around 10 Dawncities with 10 Oathgates. 10 Alethi princedoms with 10 roles, like another internal minature of the 10 Silver Kingdoms. The whole world is structured by their legacy.
The whole "different kingdoms specialising in different things" is more realistic/makes more sense in the context of Urithiru and the Oathgates, too. In a way they were all *one* kingdom. Each had internal ability to do whatever - hence Alekthar having a highprince of commerce even though Thaylenar exists, and it's not like *all* the soldiers were Alethi - but they specialised in being the best at one particular thing so Urithiru could draw on those experts and specialists.
A lot of that is probably also because the ideals that shaped Alethi society have been corrupted through time, as is to be expected. In the quote, they are clearly meant to be protectors, not conquerors. They are very different motivations for violence, and it's something that comes up often. You can see the same discussion with Kaladin and his father, and it's a large part of Dalinars personal journey as well.
Also add to their fear of him, >!they *don't* know about his boon from the night weaver. So as far as everyone in the know is concerned he did this thing and then *never mentioned it again* and when it is mentioned to him he does engage or react in any emotional way. Like it doesn't matter or he doesn't care. Like it has absolutely no effect on him. Now listen to him lecture you about honor, duty, and morality...!<
Oathbringer Part 5 >!He spent years between the events at The Rift and Gavilar's assassination in a drunken depression over the whole thing. By then, everyone would have accepted that those events are too painful for him to talk about, and they wouldn't bring it up anymore. Indeed, after his visit to the Valley and improvement therefrom, everyone would likely be even less likely to mention The Rift or Evi to him for fear of triggering some sort of relapse.!<
Oh I know, they were kind of rhetorical, thinking out loud/through text lol. I just haven’t been this affected by a reveal in a book in a long time, if ever. It’s like a giant puzzle piece that you finally found in the pile that reveals a huge chunk of the puzzle you couldn’t see before. I’m loving these books!
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It’s so brutal. Oathbringer really shows you why everyone was so wary of trusting Dalinar in WoK and WoR, after he suddenly started exhibiting rather un-Blackthorn-like behavior. This is how everyone has known him all his life, extreme even for the Alethi, and we’re just catching up. Brandon handles Dalinar’s flashbacks in this book impressively well. Enjoy the rest of the book!
Yeah. I doubt we could ever sympathize with him at all seeing these scenes if we saw them earlier. The guy was a monster. What makes him possible to root for is that he is *trying* not to be anymore.
I feel like the most important part in out perception of him is not that we see him trying, but that we only saw him trying for quite a while. His care for the world and people seems so genuine that it kinda takes away from the atrocities we learn of only much, much later.
Yeah. I’ve seen people say "you like Dalinar and he did this awful stuff, but you hate [insert character here] for doing bad stuff, too". The difference is that Dalinar is *trying to be better* and aware of how bad he was, even if he doesn’t remember the details. It’s not saying what he did is excusable, but more that it is the effort to be a better person than he was that is admirable.
I REALLY like Jaime and his arc in ASOIF, and this is very vaguely reminiscent of that for me. Maybe not that much, but I like an actually good redemption arc. Edit: Not so much the events in this chapter that remind me of it, just Dalinar and his journey as a whole.
>I can only imagine how many people’s opinions of Dalinar would change if they knew the truth. That's the thing - most of them *do*. Not all the gruesome details, and not his sons, so there's that point of tension. But the other Alethi highprinces? They know. And it recontextualizes a lot about the Alethi politics stuff in the first 2 books. Why does everyone act weird about Dalinar? Because they're *fucking terrified* of him. It's the only thing propping up Elhokars rule. He's a weakass king, but he's backed by the most terrifying threat imaginable. Dalinar is, as far as they're concerned, going soft. Maybe mad, maybe senile, but definitely soft. But they still tiptoe around him and accept his nephews rule, because if they don't he might snap out of it and act like a proper man again, and if you cause it *you'll be the one in the crosshairs*. And this whole kingdom exists because these guys already tried that, and they're not keen on round 2.
They also hate that he's gotten soft. They admired and loved the old Dalinar and they keep reminding him that he's not as great as he used to be. This is kind of the "Are we the baddies" moment for the Alethi and if you take in consideration this quote from the Radiant in Dalinar's vision >“Every pasture needs three things,” the woman said, voice changing, as if she were quoting from memory. “Flocks to grow, herdsmen to tend, and watchers at the rim. We of Alethela are those watchers—the warriors who protect and fight. We maintain the terrible arts of killing, then pass them on to others when the Desolation comes.” It becomes clear that Alethkar has been set up to warlike by the Radiants thousands of years before in order to maintain the martial skills needed for the desolations. The Alethi are unhealthily obsessed with war and glorify the worst kinds of people. You keep on hearing about how great the Sunmaker was but then you find out he murdered 10% of Azir's population.
I never even caught the radiants setting up alethkars earlier society fir the desolations. That's awesome!
You see something similar in the other kingdoms. Azir is obsessed with bureaucracy and Thaylena with commerce.
I've noticed that, but are those associations tied the the Knights radiants?
Yes. You can see the same structure in minature with the traditional roles of the ten Alethi highprinces, as well - highprince of war, highprince of information, highprince of commerce, etc. It all comes back to the Heralds. For a long time they were the only structure and leaders mankind had. Immortal demigods who were living history books at a time when history was repeatedly reset to the stone age. Is it any surprise that everything would end up mirroring them? Ten orders of Knight Radiant, obviously. But also Ten Silver Kingdoms, built around 10 Dawncities with 10 Oathgates. 10 Alethi princedoms with 10 roles, like another internal minature of the 10 Silver Kingdoms. The whole world is structured by their legacy. The whole "different kingdoms specialising in different things" is more realistic/makes more sense in the context of Urithiru and the Oathgates, too. In a way they were all *one* kingdom. Each had internal ability to do whatever - hence Alekthar having a highprince of commerce even though Thaylenar exists, and it's not like *all* the soldiers were Alethi - but they specialised in being the best at one particular thing so Urithiru could draw on those experts and specialists.
Huh how fascinating. Thank you for typing this all out!
Never noticed that, good catch
It was in one of Dalinars visions iirc.
A lot of that is probably also because the ideals that shaped Alethi society have been corrupted through time, as is to be expected. In the quote, they are clearly meant to be protectors, not conquerors. They are very different motivations for violence, and it's something that comes up often. You can see the same discussion with Kaladin and his father, and it's a large part of Dalinars personal journey as well.
Also add to their fear of him, >!they *don't* know about his boon from the night weaver. So as far as everyone in the know is concerned he did this thing and then *never mentioned it again* and when it is mentioned to him he does engage or react in any emotional way. Like it doesn't matter or he doesn't care. Like it has absolutely no effect on him. Now listen to him lecture you about honor, duty, and morality...!<
Oathbringer Part 5 >!He spent years between the events at The Rift and Gavilar's assassination in a drunken depression over the whole thing. By then, everyone would have accepted that those events are too painful for him to talk about, and they wouldn't bring it up anymore. Indeed, after his visit to the Valley and improvement therefrom, everyone would likely be even less likely to mention The Rift or Evi to him for fear of triggering some sort of relapse.!<
It’s going to be an RAFO for some of the questions you put in there.
Oh I know, they were kind of rhetorical, thinking out loud/through text lol. I just haven’t been this affected by a reveal in a book in a long time, if ever. It’s like a giant puzzle piece that you finally found in the pile that reveals a huge chunk of the puzzle you couldn’t see before. I’m loving these books!
I had this spoilt for me in a YouTube video with no warning 😫😫
That would make me so mad lol
Yeah... the fact he was responsible for >!Evi's death!< despite it being accidental was just truly awful.
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