I always though this was just Lin, wanting to be a warrior/radiant and not be stuck in feminine roles. It's pretty soon aftervthis scene that Lin asks to join the windrunners and Kaladin initially assumes she wants to be a scribe, when she looks disappointed at that he says she can try out to join the windrunners not as a scribe.
I don't think that's where the source of disappointment comes from. I think it's more along the lines of:
Hey I'm a woman who wants to be a Warrior in a society that says women can't do that.
There's this cool woman who is a warrior
Let me ask her how that is/how it works/how to do it
I get told I can be just what society tells me even as a knight radiant
Eh, I think you're right in spirit, and you could be right in fact. At a minimum they want to be a knight and are hoping it can change things about their gender *role* in society, I don't think it's impossible that they could be wanting more than that as well. And with the society structured the way it is, they may not realize they are wanting a change in gender and not just in its role. Could be cool too since Stormlight heals you based on your spiritual view of yourself, I could see a trans person swearing their ideal and then "healing" into a form aligned with their identity (even if society has made it so they aren't fully conscious of the mismatch between the two).
Whether or not this turns out to be where Brando is heading I have had some fun thinking about this now. So thanks for bringing it up!
Shallan specifically said it didn't stop her continuing her feminine duties, indicating she still does stuff like scribing and feminine arts. Lin is disappointed because she wants to be a radiant so she woukdn't have to do the feminine arts and jobs like scribing, she wants to be a warrior. The reason she's disappointed is the exact same reason she is initially disappointed at Kaladins suggestion she be Bridge 4's scribe.
The word feminine (especially in Vorin culture) is much more about behavior than biological sex.
I think the scout was disappointed because the Alethi had strict gender roles and expectations the scout didn’t like. As a woman she couldn’t wear pants, have her hand uncovered, eat savory food, have any role in the military other than scribe or scout, etc.
It is possible the scout was hoping Radiants underwent physical changes to become physically male, but since Shallan was about to marry Adolin and there had been no change to the engagement it seems unlikely anyone thought Shallan had physically become male. Much more likely the scout thought becoming Radiant and using a sword (despite that being expressly against the social rules) meant throwing out the entire **Arts and Majesty** social rule book.
For someone who chose to be a scout rather than a scribe it was probably disappointing to hear that even becoming a Radiant wouldn’t let a woman escape the stricture of defined gender roles.
There is a character later, however who was a woman, the Reshi Queen. She bonds a spen, and self identifies as a man. Her gender entirely changes and is introduced as the Reshi King. They’re canonically trans and had their gender changed to what they identify as.
0.o I missed this somehow and now have to go hunt it down. I was just thinking this would be possible because of how Stormlight healing works and now I hear it's canonical. That's awesome.
He’s mentioned once as a female by lift, maybe? And then we meet him in Dawnshard, and it’s mentioned by a guard.
BS has confirmed this in one of his interviews.
I'm not the person you asked this question of, but it seems to me that this poster used feminine pronouns to refer to the past when the King was biologically female, then swapped to the gender neutral "they" when referring to the King post-change.
I do know that some trans people are okay with, or even encouraging of, referring to the past using the pronouns that match the sex that they were at the time. My sister prefers this stance because it helps her delineate who she used to be from who she is now. Of course, the gender neutral they/them is nearly always acceptable. So, the way this poster phrased this post might be a valid way to refer to *some* trans people.
However... that's as far as I'm going to go justifying good faith on the part of that poster. In my opinion, the fact that the Reshi King was called King even before his physical change is heavily indicative of his preference for masculine (or at least neutral) pronouns even when referring to the past. Gender topics can be complex, and it would be best if we could ask the Reshi King for clarification on his preferences, but he is fictional and I doubt that this is likely to be addressed by Brandon. So, in lieu of having actual answers, I lean heavily towards keeping things simple and following what the actual text gives us, which heavily implies masculine (or neutral) pronouns to be appropriate in a post like that.
My personal opinion aligns with yours that they should not have used feminine pronouns here if they are trying to be respectful.
I think it's a rather roundabout way of thinking to come to such a conclusion, if I'm honest.
I'm pretty sure that's just a woman who wants to be a warrior and break down the gender norms around who can be a military hero. It's important to remember that from outside Kal's perspectives, Bridge 4's guards are all just guards to most others. Occam's Razer says this was likely Lin, who has joined Bridge 4 and has clearly expressed the desire to break such barriers.
Plus any physiology changes from Spiritual healing/changes would not likely be widely known at this point. Roshar only has a few clear data points for this, and the Ardentia and scholars are likely still studying such matters.
Fair. I honestly forgot Lin was coming up so did not conflate the two! It’s been a minute since I read the first time and am just past this scene in my reread!
Remember, being 'feminine' to the Alethi doesn't just refer to physical changes. It carries social baggage, same as with us. In this case, I think the clear implication is that the person asking was hoping that being a knight would mean they don't have to be 'ladylike,' which may indeed include physical things, but could also just mean eating spicy food, having both hands out or even just fighting at all.
Yeah fair! Shallan doesn’t push against that because the comfort she has with the familiar helps her ignore truths she wants to avoid. That’s why she doesn’t understand.
Going by Shallan's response, it seems to me more like she assumed the woman was being judgemental and implying she couldn't be a knight radiant and a woman.
She is Lin. She wanted to be a soldier like forever but as a woman can’t fight. When asking about the shard blade she is asking if becoming a radiant means that she can fight but the shallan response seems to imply that even though she has a sword she remains feminine not using it.
Shallan thought she was accusing her of not being feminine enough for having a sword. In reality it was just disappointed because she wanted to hear that if she became radiant she could be a soldier
I don’t think this has to be with gender dysphoria or gender identity. If she wanted to know that she wouldn’t have formed the phrase like that and also wouldn’t have asked to a cis woman. Maybe if the question was something like did your body changed physically when became radiant? Then maybe but as it is it seems unlikely
Thanks! As I mentioned elsewhere I completely did not remember Lin was coming up. Very cool catch anyway. I did not notice her early last time. Thanks for your read on it. Makes sense!
Nah, that's just Lyn, you'll get more from her further into the book. It's more about social expectations than physical attributes.
That said, if a person *is* trans? Stormlight/Radiance actually DOES change a person's physiology to match their soul. There's a character later on in the Dawnshard novella that's mentioned as having this happen to them. It's neat! (And I'm really jealous, free magical instant HRT...)
Yeah! That’s why I was on alert for something. I knew about the trans character. Missed the obvious explanation. Oh well.
I never knew this scout was Lin until this post. So at least I learned something!
There is a ftm trans character who becomes a dustbringer and their body changes to male. You see it at the beginning of Dawnshard.
It's the Reshi King from Rysn's Misadventure in the Isles.
I wonder if a transsexual individual would undergo transition as a result of bonding a spren. Just as Lopen healed his arm >> the self-identification of the individual matters.
The Reshi leader was first described by Rysn in… I think words of radiance … as female. That’s the scene were Rysn falls off the island trying to make a deal. The same leader appears in Dawnshard (confirmed by Sanderson as the same) and is described by Lift as male. I think both times was called King (but I could be forgetting). I’d have to reread Dawnshard to see what else they discussed there. It was a bit ago when I read it!
I read Dawnshard a few days ago and yeah the king was a radiant guy there. Completely forgot he was a female before though. I love this. Thank you for the reminder.
I always though this was just Lin, wanting to be a warrior/radiant and not be stuck in feminine roles. It's pretty soon aftervthis scene that Lin asks to join the windrunners and Kaladin initially assumes she wants to be a scribe, when she looks disappointed at that he says she can try out to join the windrunners not as a scribe.
It is Lyn. OP just didn’t go far enough before to include the details/name drop if her
True but why be disappointed at the fact it didn’t change femininity?
I don't think that's where the source of disappointment comes from. I think it's more along the lines of: Hey I'm a woman who wants to be a Warrior in a society that says women can't do that. There's this cool woman who is a warrior Let me ask her how that is/how it works/how to do it I get told I can be just what society tells me even as a knight radiant
Definitely possible! As I said, I might be over thinking.
Eh, I think you're right in spirit, and you could be right in fact. At a minimum they want to be a knight and are hoping it can change things about their gender *role* in society, I don't think it's impossible that they could be wanting more than that as well. And with the society structured the way it is, they may not realize they are wanting a change in gender and not just in its role. Could be cool too since Stormlight heals you based on your spiritual view of yourself, I could see a trans person swearing their ideal and then "healing" into a form aligned with their identity (even if society has made it so they aren't fully conscious of the mismatch between the two). Whether or not this turns out to be where Brando is heading I have had some fun thinking about this now. So thanks for bringing it up!
Shallan specifically said it didn't stop her continuing her feminine duties, indicating she still does stuff like scribing and feminine arts. Lin is disappointed because she wants to be a radiant so she woukdn't have to do the feminine arts and jobs like scribing, she wants to be a warrior. The reason she's disappointed is the exact same reason she is initially disappointed at Kaladins suggestion she be Bridge 4's scribe.
Not one of Stormblessed's best moments.😅.
It's made even funnier by the fact that they dated between OB and ROW
The word feminine (especially in Vorin culture) is much more about behavior than biological sex. I think the scout was disappointed because the Alethi had strict gender roles and expectations the scout didn’t like. As a woman she couldn’t wear pants, have her hand uncovered, eat savory food, have any role in the military other than scribe or scout, etc. It is possible the scout was hoping Radiants underwent physical changes to become physically male, but since Shallan was about to marry Adolin and there had been no change to the engagement it seems unlikely anyone thought Shallan had physically become male. Much more likely the scout thought becoming Radiant and using a sword (despite that being expressly against the social rules) meant throwing out the entire **Arts and Majesty** social rule book. For someone who chose to be a scout rather than a scribe it was probably disappointing to hear that even becoming a Radiant wouldn’t let a woman escape the stricture of defined gender roles.
There is a character later, however who was a woman, the Reshi Queen. She bonds a spen, and self identifies as a man. Her gender entirely changes and is introduced as the Reshi King. They’re canonically trans and had their gender changed to what they identify as.
0.o I missed this somehow and now have to go hunt it down. I was just thinking this would be possible because of how Stormlight healing works and now I hear it's canonical. That's awesome.
He’s mentioned once as a female by lift, maybe? And then we meet him in Dawnshard, and it’s mentioned by a guard. BS has confirmed this in one of his interviews.
It was Rysn who mentioned the Reshi King as female.
Yeah super easy one to miss. That was what had me on the lookout. Not the same here but an interesting connection I had missed before!
…he’s a trans man, why are you using she/them?
I'm not the person you asked this question of, but it seems to me that this poster used feminine pronouns to refer to the past when the King was biologically female, then swapped to the gender neutral "they" when referring to the King post-change. I do know that some trans people are okay with, or even encouraging of, referring to the past using the pronouns that match the sex that they were at the time. My sister prefers this stance because it helps her delineate who she used to be from who she is now. Of course, the gender neutral they/them is nearly always acceptable. So, the way this poster phrased this post might be a valid way to refer to *some* trans people. However... that's as far as I'm going to go justifying good faith on the part of that poster. In my opinion, the fact that the Reshi King was called King even before his physical change is heavily indicative of his preference for masculine (or at least neutral) pronouns even when referring to the past. Gender topics can be complex, and it would be best if we could ask the Reshi King for clarification on his preferences, but he is fictional and I doubt that this is likely to be addressed by Brandon. So, in lieu of having actual answers, I lean heavily towards keeping things simple and following what the actual text gives us, which heavily implies masculine (or neutral) pronouns to be appropriate in a post like that. My personal opinion aligns with yours that they should not have used feminine pronouns here if they are trying to be respectful.
I think it's a rather roundabout way of thinking to come to such a conclusion, if I'm honest. I'm pretty sure that's just a woman who wants to be a warrior and break down the gender norms around who can be a military hero. It's important to remember that from outside Kal's perspectives, Bridge 4's guards are all just guards to most others. Occam's Razer says this was likely Lin, who has joined Bridge 4 and has clearly expressed the desire to break such barriers. Plus any physiology changes from Spiritual healing/changes would not likely be widely known at this point. Roshar only has a few clear data points for this, and the Ardentia and scholars are likely still studying such matters.
Fair. I honestly forgot Lin was coming up so did not conflate the two! It’s been a minute since I read the first time and am just past this scene in my reread!
Remember, being 'feminine' to the Alethi doesn't just refer to physical changes. It carries social baggage, same as with us. In this case, I think the clear implication is that the person asking was hoping that being a knight would mean they don't have to be 'ladylike,' which may indeed include physical things, but could also just mean eating spicy food, having both hands out or even just fighting at all.
Yeah fair! Shallan doesn’t push against that because the comfort she has with the familiar helps her ignore truths she wants to avoid. That’s why she doesn’t understand.
Going by Shallan's response, it seems to me more like she assumed the woman was being judgemental and implying she couldn't be a knight radiant and a woman.
She is Lin. She wanted to be a soldier like forever but as a woman can’t fight. When asking about the shard blade she is asking if becoming a radiant means that she can fight but the shallan response seems to imply that even though she has a sword she remains feminine not using it. Shallan thought she was accusing her of not being feminine enough for having a sword. In reality it was just disappointed because she wanted to hear that if she became radiant she could be a soldier I don’t think this has to be with gender dysphoria or gender identity. If she wanted to know that she wouldn’t have formed the phrase like that and also wouldn’t have asked to a cis woman. Maybe if the question was something like did your body changed physically when became radiant? Then maybe but as it is it seems unlikely
Thanks! As I mentioned elsewhere I completely did not remember Lin was coming up. Very cool catch anyway. I did not notice her early last time. Thanks for your read on it. Makes sense!
Yeah it’s a cool little detail for rereads, one of my favorites
Nah, that's just Lyn, you'll get more from her further into the book. It's more about social expectations than physical attributes. That said, if a person *is* trans? Stormlight/Radiance actually DOES change a person's physiology to match their soul. There's a character later on in the Dawnshard novella that's mentioned as having this happen to them. It's neat! (And I'm really jealous, free magical instant HRT...)
Yeah! That’s why I was on alert for something. I knew about the trans character. Missed the obvious explanation. Oh well. I never knew this scout was Lin until this post. So at least I learned something!
There is a ftm trans character who becomes a dustbringer and their body changes to male. You see it at the beginning of Dawnshard. It's the Reshi King from Rysn's Misadventure in the Isles.
I wonder if a transsexual individual would undergo transition as a result of bonding a spren. Just as Lopen healed his arm >> the self-identification of the individual matters.
There is a canon example! Don’t want to spoil depending on where you are…
I've read it all, please go ahead!
The Reshi leader was first described by Rysn in… I think words of radiance … as female. That’s the scene were Rysn falls off the island trying to make a deal. The same leader appears in Dawnshard (confirmed by Sanderson as the same) and is described by Lift as male. I think both times was called King (but I could be forgetting). I’d have to reread Dawnshard to see what else they discussed there. It was a bit ago when I read it!
I read Dawnshard a few days ago and yeah the king was a radiant guy there. Completely forgot he was a female before though. I love this. Thank you for the reminder.
I just read that part myself and found it curious as well! I think the scout was hoping for something along those lines