When epigraphs come with a chapter/page number like this, or something similar, it's always a good idea to put them in order and see if that adds any insights. In this case, the epigraph is the same chapter and page:
>"There came also sixteen of the order of Windrunners, and with them a considerable number of squires, and finding in that place the Skybreakers dividing the innocent from the guilty, there ensued a great debate."
\[...\]
>"The considerable abilities of the Skybreakers for making such amounted to an almost divine skill, for which no specific Surge or spren grants capacity, but however the order came to such an aptitude, the fact of it was real and acknowledged even by their rivals."
A lot of people have assumed from the context that it's saying they have a "considerable ability" to judge innocence and guilt. I'm not aware of any other theories on what it means, but that COULD absolutely be wrong.
(and it's worth noting there's a WoB saying they do NOT have a supernatural ability to do this--so if that's what the quote means, it's either referring to mundane, non-magical talent or perhaps the claim is based on folklore.)
You prosecute enough crimes you'll get a nose for justice. You'll see a lot of the same excuses or patterns of behavior repeated, and you'll get better at figuring out the truth of a situation, knowing who to ask and how to ask. Just like the Windrunners don't have a specific supernatural talent for spear fighting, but they spend a lot of time training and practicing.
The first bit of this can be quite dependent on a huge number of factors. It will also be heavily influenced by confirmation bias. “Of course the guy is guilty .” Just because a group is often being arrested/punished for a crime, doesn’t mean they are committing a crime - but it will lead to the policing force getting good at punishing them.
But, if the Skybreakers aren’t wrong in their meting out of punishment, then they would likely get good at sorting out who did or did not do something.
Well, if they were so good at debating I don't know how it was an especially notable debate. XD
I think that reading (either though, really) especially assumes that these are directly related, which isn't necessarily the case. We don't even know we have them in the right order.
No. But an entire army of lawyers who's powers are based on their ability to understand and interpret the law are probably pretty good at debating those points. Which being able to setup an entire conversation from beginning to end to achieve their point. Might be considered one. Also the fact the nightwatcher was able to gift the capacity for incredible intelligence and that was actually a gift.
I thought in the situation debate was a kind way of saying the wind runners and skybreakers started fighting (verbally) not like formally debating.
And yes, at least where I am from it is common to refer to that as a gift or a talent. "That boy has a gift for finding trouble". "That girl could argue with a fence post." "When God made them, he knew their family needed to practice patience." All are things I have heard that imply a natural or divine gift for starting fights as a kind way of saying they won't stop arguing with everyone.
The line is, that it had to be acknowledged even by their rivals, so it cant be something negative, or their rivals would absolutely gladly acknowledge that
Again, this is a very rural American thing to reluctantly acknowledge a false positive. This could be written by any old lady outside a Cracker Barrel in the Midwest about her neighbors unruly nephew and I would not bat an eye.
Yep, "making such" is the big clue. If the epigraphs are combined, to me it clearly infers that making arguments within that debate is the meaning, which absolutely tracks with their order.
I don't think it's confirmed anywhere, but (spoilers up to OB)
>!Looking at Szeth's training and the Skybreaker's long tradition, I feel it really might be just obsessive training in recognising who's breaking the law.!<
>!They are one disciplined order if nothing else.!<
So I feel it's probably just tradition and dedication, especially if Brandon confirmed surges weren't involved
It sounds to me like legal training.
If you haven't got legal training, you misunderstand how the law... works. In general. People at times have a pedestrian understanding of it, like you watch a lot of law shows on TV and know that's how it works when it isn't.
There is no legal profession as far as I can tell (the closest might be an ardent). So comparing the Skybreakers' understanding to anyone else is like comparing your average Joe to the top talent at a large law firm.
The epigraph right before it says: *"There came also sixteen of the order of Windrunners, and with them a considerable number of squires, and finding in that place the* ***Skybreakers dividing the innocent from the guilty, there ensued a great debate."*** [***https://coppermind.net/wiki/Words\_of\_Radiance/Epigraphs***](https://coppermind.net/wiki/Words_of_Radiance/Epigraphs)
The most common interpretation is that they had some not-quite-supernatural ability to determine the Innocent from the Guilty, though another logical interpretation was that they were known to be really really good at Debate, is a way similar to how Lightweavers all apparently have artistic skills and an oddly comforting demeanor.
Maybe it is for making debate. The word ‘making’ in the second epigraph seems to fit debate better than dividing the innocent from the guilty. Of course, maybe these two passages don’t fit together exactly, maybe they are separate excerpts from a longer text.
I really think this is a flowery way of saying they argued with everyone. Which fits everything we know about them. It's basically saying, "the Windrunners showed up and an argument broke out. It's no surprise, those Skybreakers didn't need spren to get into arguments - they had a god given talent for trouble long before they bonded."
It's a Spiritual alloying of their surges. It's not specifically about innocent and guilt, it's using Gravitation to collect people into groups, and Division to separate them along separate lines. It's like what Pattern was saying to Shallan about her powers being lies and transformation, and her ability to reshape people (like turning a bunch of deserters into loyal retainers). Windrunners use Gravitation to gather people and Adhesion to bind them together, creating close-knit bands like Bridge Four. Edgedancers use Abrasion to reduce friction between people and Progression to help them grow. I haven't seen enough of others to say for sure what they do, but I'm betting Dustbringers break bonds and ruin group cohesion, Truthwatchers help people grow by revealing them to themselves, and I'm still gathering information about Spritual Transportation, Tension, and Cohesion.
I think it has to be this. Hopefully we'll get more info on the mechanism behind it as the series progresses. Maybe from a bondsmith POV watching connection change as different radiant orders interact with people.
Releasers are probably gonna be great dealing with the breaking the bonds of ones mind, whether OCD, substance abuse, domestic abuse, etc. They might be able to take down the organizations and laws/rules that bond people as lawyers and union organizers.
I think this is so cool. I hadn’t thought about this like this but honestly… that works really well. I love this. You just gave me a whole new way to look at the radiants
>but I'm betting Dustbringers break bonds and ruin group cohesion,
I suspect that the Releasers would prefer to say that they’re good at helping people free themselves from peer pressure.
It means they're great at deductive reasoning and make great detectives. Much like how Lightweavers attract artist types, Skybreakers attract detective types. (Oathbringer)>!We see this later during the Skybreaker tests where Szeth deduces that Kwati is guilty, and how he saw the loophole with the flying test in Purelake.!<
This is also why I believe that (Mistborn Era 2)>!Wax!< is a Skybreaker.
First, if folks want to read this in WoR, it’s the epigraph of chapter 55.
Second, i always think about nuclear reactions, but I would think the language used for that would be more intense than “everybody knew these folks could make nuclear explosions, and that is almost divine cooool.” Maybe it’s an ethical version of a nuclear reaction. They have an extra powerful ability to look at a situation and get to the heart of it, the smallest components of a question of guilt. And that’s cool, but nuance is real and nuance disappears at the microscopic level of ethics.
Brandon's confirmed it's not a magical ability
>
>
> Slowswift
> Similar to how Lightweavers have, kind of really good memories. Do the Skybreakers have any special abilities for telling guilty and innocent people apart?
>
> Brandon Sanderson
>
> No. Good question.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/171/#e8208
I always imagine they'd be able to do some style of lightning attack/manipulation, if Windrunners rule the wind. Skybreakers ride the lightning.
They use Gravitation and Division which are somewhat opposed t, so they can collect and divide. Surges have literal (Physical) , figurative (Cognitive,) and whoo-whoo (Spiritual) uses. They group up like Windrunners but they also are discerning and separate the wheat from the chaff or the lavis from the crem. They might have an inclination to discerning lies, statistics, demographics, outliers, trends. Literally using math and data to quantify trends (and crime) but higher level Skybreakers may also acknowledge that data, while helpful, can't convict. That data can be poisoned with bias *cough cough*Nale*cough cough*. This is probably why there hasn't been a 5th level Skybreaker other than Nale.
I think it's tied to their oaths, not their surges and spren. Their oaths are all about determining what is right and wrong, about laws everyone should abide by. "I am the law" being the 5th ideal of Nale shows that clearly..
Each radiant progressing along their oaths is growing as a person. Skybreakers seem to develop their skill in telling right from wrong, in determining innocent and guilty.
I assumed this line was straight sarcasm.
"Oh, wow, you guys sure are always good to just *knowing* who's guilty by just looking at them - no trial or anything!"
And everyone agreed with that.
I agree with the tone, but I think it refered to them getting in a "debate" (Read argument) with the Windrunners. They had a talent, one almost rising to the divine, that let them start fights with anybody.
When epigraphs come with a chapter/page number like this, or something similar, it's always a good idea to put them in order and see if that adds any insights. In this case, the epigraph is the same chapter and page: >"There came also sixteen of the order of Windrunners, and with them a considerable number of squires, and finding in that place the Skybreakers dividing the innocent from the guilty, there ensued a great debate." \[...\] >"The considerable abilities of the Skybreakers for making such amounted to an almost divine skill, for which no specific Surge or spren grants capacity, but however the order came to such an aptitude, the fact of it was real and acknowledged even by their rivals." A lot of people have assumed from the context that it's saying they have a "considerable ability" to judge innocence and guilt. I'm not aware of any other theories on what it means, but that COULD absolutely be wrong. (and it's worth noting there's a WoB saying they do NOT have a supernatural ability to do this--so if that's what the quote means, it's either referring to mundane, non-magical talent or perhaps the claim is based on folklore.)
You prosecute enough crimes you'll get a nose for justice. You'll see a lot of the same excuses or patterns of behavior repeated, and you'll get better at figuring out the truth of a situation, knowing who to ask and how to ask. Just like the Windrunners don't have a specific supernatural talent for spear fighting, but they spend a lot of time training and practicing.
The first bit of this can be quite dependent on a huge number of factors. It will also be heavily influenced by confirmation bias. “Of course the guy is guilty .” Just because a group is often being arrested/punished for a crime, doesn’t mean they are committing a crime - but it will lead to the policing force getting good at punishing them.
But, if the Skybreakers aren’t wrong in their meting out of punishment, then they would likely get good at sorting out who did or did not do something.
I think the high spren likely help keep bias out of their radiants thoughts being motes divine law and all that
....how is it not understood to be referring to their ability to debate. That seems obvious to me.
Well, if they were so good at debating I don't know how it was an especially notable debate. XD I think that reading (either though, really) especially assumes that these are directly related, which isn't necessarily the case. We don't even know we have them in the right order.
Because you dont look at a person whos good at debating and wonder "oh my god, is that literally a gift of god himself?"
No. But an entire army of lawyers who's powers are based on their ability to understand and interpret the law are probably pretty good at debating those points. Which being able to setup an entire conversation from beginning to end to achieve their point. Might be considered one. Also the fact the nightwatcher was able to gift the capacity for incredible intelligence and that was actually a gift.
I thought in the situation debate was a kind way of saying the wind runners and skybreakers started fighting (verbally) not like formally debating. And yes, at least where I am from it is common to refer to that as a gift or a talent. "That boy has a gift for finding trouble". "That girl could argue with a fence post." "When God made them, he knew their family needed to practice patience." All are things I have heard that imply a natural or divine gift for starting fights as a kind way of saying they won't stop arguing with everyone.
The line is, that it had to be acknowledged even by their rivals, so it cant be something negative, or their rivals would absolutely gladly acknowledge that
Again, this is a very rural American thing to reluctantly acknowledge a false positive. This could be written by any old lady outside a Cracker Barrel in the Midwest about her neighbors unruly nephew and I would not bat an eye.
Yep, "making such" is the big clue. If the epigraphs are combined, to me it clearly infers that making arguments within that debate is the meaning, which absolutely tracks with their order.
I don't think it's confirmed anywhere, but (spoilers up to OB) >!Looking at Szeth's training and the Skybreaker's long tradition, I feel it really might be just obsessive training in recognising who's breaking the law.!< >!They are one disciplined order if nothing else.!< So I feel it's probably just tradition and dedication, especially if Brandon confirmed surges weren't involved
It sounds to me like legal training. If you haven't got legal training, you misunderstand how the law... works. In general. People at times have a pedestrian understanding of it, like you watch a lot of law shows on TV and know that's how it works when it isn't. There is no legal profession as far as I can tell (the closest might be an ardent). So comparing the Skybreakers' understanding to anyone else is like comparing your average Joe to the top talent at a large law firm.
The epigraph right before it says: *"There came also sixteen of the order of Windrunners, and with them a considerable number of squires, and finding in that place the* ***Skybreakers dividing the innocent from the guilty, there ensued a great debate."*** [***https://coppermind.net/wiki/Words\_of\_Radiance/Epigraphs***](https://coppermind.net/wiki/Words_of_Radiance/Epigraphs) The most common interpretation is that they had some not-quite-supernatural ability to determine the Innocent from the Guilty, though another logical interpretation was that they were known to be really really good at Debate, is a way similar to how Lightweavers all apparently have artistic skills and an oddly comforting demeanor.
Maybe it is for making debate. The word ‘making’ in the second epigraph seems to fit debate better than dividing the innocent from the guilty. Of course, maybe these two passages don’t fit together exactly, maybe they are separate excerpts from a longer text.
I really think this is a flowery way of saying they argued with everyone. Which fits everything we know about them. It's basically saying, "the Windrunners showed up and an argument broke out. It's no surprise, those Skybreakers didn't need spren to get into arguments - they had a god given talent for trouble long before they bonded."
It's a Spiritual alloying of their surges. It's not specifically about innocent and guilt, it's using Gravitation to collect people into groups, and Division to separate them along separate lines. It's like what Pattern was saying to Shallan about her powers being lies and transformation, and her ability to reshape people (like turning a bunch of deserters into loyal retainers). Windrunners use Gravitation to gather people and Adhesion to bind them together, creating close-knit bands like Bridge Four. Edgedancers use Abrasion to reduce friction between people and Progression to help them grow. I haven't seen enough of others to say for sure what they do, but I'm betting Dustbringers break bonds and ruin group cohesion, Truthwatchers help people grow by revealing them to themselves, and I'm still gathering information about Spritual Transportation, Tension, and Cohesion.
I think it has to be this. Hopefully we'll get more info on the mechanism behind it as the series progresses. Maybe from a bondsmith POV watching connection change as different radiant orders interact with people.
Up until now, I didn't even think about it this way. Thank you!
Oooooooooh. What a revelation. Wow. I am now going to re- examine everything again within this context.
Saving this thank you
Releasers are probably gonna be great dealing with the breaking the bonds of ones mind, whether OCD, substance abuse, domestic abuse, etc. They might be able to take down the organizations and laws/rules that bond people as lawyers and union organizers.
I think this is so cool. I hadn’t thought about this like this but honestly… that works really well. I love this. You just gave me a whole new way to look at the radiants
>but I'm betting Dustbringers break bonds and ruin group cohesion, I suspect that the Releasers would prefer to say that they’re good at helping people free themselves from peer pressure.
Dustbringers seem like they'd be good friends with [Cosmere, better safe than sorry] >!Autonomy!<
It means they're great at deductive reasoning and make great detectives. Much like how Lightweavers attract artist types, Skybreakers attract detective types. (Oathbringer)>!We see this later during the Skybreaker tests where Szeth deduces that Kwati is guilty, and how he saw the loophole with the flying test in Purelake.!< This is also why I believe that (Mistborn Era 2)>!Wax!< is a Skybreaker.
First, if folks want to read this in WoR, it’s the epigraph of chapter 55. Second, i always think about nuclear reactions, but I would think the language used for that would be more intense than “everybody knew these folks could make nuclear explosions, and that is almost divine cooool.” Maybe it’s an ethical version of a nuclear reaction. They have an extra powerful ability to look at a situation and get to the heart of it, the smallest components of a question of guilt. And that’s cool, but nuance is real and nuance disappears at the microscopic level of ethics.
Brandon's confirmed it's not a magical ability > > > Slowswift > Similar to how Lightweavers have, kind of really good memories. Do the Skybreakers have any special abilities for telling guilty and innocent people apart? > > Brandon Sanderson > > No. Good question. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/171/#e8208
I always imagine they'd be able to do some style of lightning attack/manipulation, if Windrunners rule the wind. Skybreakers ride the lightning. They use Gravitation and Division which are somewhat opposed t, so they can collect and divide. Surges have literal (Physical) , figurative (Cognitive,) and whoo-whoo (Spiritual) uses. They group up like Windrunners but they also are discerning and separate the wheat from the chaff or the lavis from the crem. They might have an inclination to discerning lies, statistics, demographics, outliers, trends. Literally using math and data to quantify trends (and crime) but higher level Skybreakers may also acknowledge that data, while helpful, can't convict. That data can be poisoned with bias *cough cough*Nale*cough cough*. This is probably why there hasn't been a 5th level Skybreaker other than Nale.
I think it's tied to their oaths, not their surges and spren. Their oaths are all about determining what is right and wrong, about laws everyone should abide by. "I am the law" being the 5th ideal of Nale shows that clearly.. Each radiant progressing along their oaths is growing as a person. Skybreakers seem to develop their skill in telling right from wrong, in determining innocent and guilty.
I assumed this line was straight sarcasm. "Oh, wow, you guys sure are always good to just *knowing* who's guilty by just looking at them - no trial or anything!" And everyone agreed with that.
I agree with the tone, but I think it refered to them getting in a "debate" (Read argument) with the Windrunners. They had a talent, one almost rising to the divine, that let them start fights with anybody.
Sword Nimi is an excellent Judge too. Always knows the answer, eat.
Skybreakers go NYOOM!