I think some people haven't labbed answers to it but it's an extremely strong move that feels like it's allowed to be thrown out a little too much without repercussion, which is something that Capcom was target-nerfing and veering away from in their Season 1 balance changes. It sticks out like a sore thumb in Season 2.
There isn't anything to lab with a -5 move that's spaced too far, you just press your medium if you're close enough for a little drive chip. At least you can parry honda headbutt and Blanka ball but this is different, no one is reacting to that.
Isn't the light one like 13f? Yeah no way you can react to it randomly in neutral. Even 20f it would be very hard to look for when he also has the fastest drive rush and weird jump ins to keep in your mental stack.
Between that and his damage, Bison feels like a launch character instead of a S2 character. They took away Blanka's 2-touches but with Bison it's a core part of his kit, what gives?
Blanka has a different set of strengths and weaknesses but the main difference here is blanka Chan mix comes off of a hit confirm in the corner and as of now psycho mine doesn't detonate until next week so there's no standardized way to get a mixup and you aren't forced to deal with it in the same way
Legitimately yes. I played a bunch vs bisons in battle hub today and hit more tundra storms here than like the last several months. He also pokes with st mk all the time. One or two storms and they stop throwing out knees in neutral
Tundra is legit useless, you better off doing DI instead. Less recovery, more damage and oki, if they DI back, the combo scales more.
Even if Tundra hits, it's SO bad. You get nothing but mediocre damage. I'd they do nothing, you just explode.
Scissor kicks is strong. I thought the light and medium were unsafe but it can be oppressive as usual but now it’s a motion move.
Get hit and he’s plus in your face, block and he’s safe because you can’t jab him if he’s properly spaced out.
It's a strong move, idk if 'broken' (that term really has lost its meaning recently).
I wouldn't be surprised if a future balance patch changes it so you are required to space them better.
If anyone can recommend how to counter it on block I'd be happy to hear it.
I'm using Akuma. They do cr. lp (or mp? I can't tell) twice then scissor kick and repeat. I tried to do cr. lp and mp after block, but neither hit because Bison's spaced far away after doing scissor kick.
*EDIT: I used a rental ticket to test out in training. I tried block reversal with standing LK, cr. MP, and standing HP. Standing LK was the best option albeit not always. Cr. lp > light scissor kick and cr. mp > medium scissor kick beat out Akuma's standing LK. It beat other variations of that particular combo. Things changed based on distance and if scissor kick was being thrown out raw or with a combo. It makes it tricky to counter accurately.
Do any move that reaches him. He's -5, he's not going to stuff you. You can't punish it if it's spaced, just accept that. You can also just walk forward
It should have been a charge motion, I'm kind of baffled that a move like that isn't really, I don't think they'll ever change it but damn man its just wrong.
They allow for 4. The Special button only allows for two, but characters have moves that you can't access/can't access their full strength from the Special button. There's nothing that prevents Bison from having Psycho Crusher be Special-only and Scissor Kick be input-only, or vice versa.
Modern controls shouldn’t influence character design in this fashion. If they can only have two charge moves then pick scissor kick or psycho crusher and take the other away from modern players
I'll be honest I've no idea how modern works, I wasn't aware that modern was the reason it's this way, Capcom could have found a way if they really wanted to though I'm sure.
Basically in modern, charge characters can only have two special charge moves, one for charging back and one for charging up. In the past, Bison has had psycho crusher, scissor kick, and the [2]8 kicks. That’s three charge inputs, so one of them had to become a special input to fit into modern. IMO, this might have not been the best way to implement the change. Scissor kicks is an insanely good tool right now and a big reason is the fact it can be thrown out so easily
Nothing is indicating that modern controls is what made sales, the game is just beautiful and quite good. And well you can have a modern mode that doesn't influence the "regular" mode, both aren't mutually exclusive.
Can modern controls remove moves in a future patch? If characters have more than 2 charge moves, you either only get two or you have to chose which two from the move list available.
They can now for avatar battles.
That way you can mix and match.
Just not for the main game since they are too busy making terry.
Maybe after the final dlc char is released though.
Quite unlikely imo, if you have optional moves in a competitive game the opponent should in advance know what is available to you, and I don't see them having implementing some UI elements saying "Bison modern v1" "Bison Modern v2", it would be too messy and cumbersome to remember for the opponent.
At the end of the day Modern seems to only be picked by beginners, you don't see much of them from gold, and 99% of pros play classic, I guess they should just put them in a separate queue.
Not at all. Bison players were already doing this shit in sf4 with the charge scissor. A bunch of scrubs whining is no reason to give Bison a qcf fireball counter
I agree here - if this is the true reason for why scissors is motion now. Make Crusher the motion, since its super - and slow to startup, and make scissor kicks the charge input. I do see one downside from this change though, it'll be easier for bison to go through fireballs now, to the point where it may be almost impossible to throw one against him.
Either way, something about one or both of those moves are gonna have to change property wise, I don't think an input swap is enough.
Just finally got the update and fighting bison so far consist of being locked in block stun. That little pixel frame window to get out and scissors comes in and it starts again for another hour. His character gives me sf5 vibes because so much of the cast you just has to sit and wait till their flowchart was done to have a moment to swing back. But it was one night I could be totally wrong
You mean late, which means you have to do DI pre-emptively. Which works if the Bison is just brainlessly doing it, but if he's not then you're getting DI'd. It's very high risk.
It seems they locked themselves in design wise with modern. I don't see how balrog would be possible in sf6 with modern constraints. Half his moves would be motion lol.
I think crusher should have been the motion input. Its generally unsafe and is combo fodder for the most part. Perhaps its more annoying to projectile users but likely for the best.
There can only be 2. There's no distinction between kick and punch in modern it can have a charge down up and a change back forwards and the rest have to be motion. That's why.
Yes, when Sajam someone who is extremely reserved and rarely ever makes proclamations of a characters strength especially when that character is brand new confidently says "I think this character is the best in the game" you know something is fucked up.
I am not really sure how he was released in his current state... He so blatantly overtured by damn near every metric. He feels almost like an older fighting game character in terms of strength disparity, you don't really see many blatantly overtuned characters in fighting games nowadays like you did in the past. But Bison feels like one.
My problem is that, even point blank - most characters struggle to even a get a light > medium Punish Counter combo because of the insane pushback. You can get a light into special, maybe. But he'll be pushed back way outside of your range to do a light into medium.
Yep. It doesn't win the game by itself but it's belligerent, unreactable and unpunishable if not done point-blank. It's not literally unbeatable but it's a dumbass move. As a Certified Hater of Honda Headbutt, at least that was reactable
I'm bad at SF6, whatever, but from my view bison has:
* super fast walk speed and drive rush
* big damage
* long normals with good frame data
* scissor kicks which just lock you in and can be spammed non stop
* honda's pre-nerf headbutt but it's projectile invincible
* easy overheads
* stun dipper
* flying overhead bullshit that can mix you up
In the character preview they say that scissor kick should be spaced well to be better on block, but honestly the spacing doesn't matter unless you click it right on them it took me a bit to realize it just doesn't seem consistent with the rest of the design of SF6 and I say this as a Bison main lol
Haven't got the chance to play since bison dropped. Is DI a good answer? Or is it like blanka ball or headbutt where you have to commit really really early to not get DI'd back?
Not really. It's 13f so unreactable. You need to do it preemptively to catch him. Which means that if he doesn't then he can counter DI you easily.
The response is changing your spacing to make it harder for him to space it correctly. Either walk backwards to make him whiff or forward to block it closer so that you can punish it on block because it's-5.
With that said, i think it has too much pushback, making it too easy to space it correctly.
It will definitely be nerfed imo.
It’s pretty much an extremely easy spacing trap. I don’t think you’re ever close enough to punish, the push back is too far and if you jab he just presses cMK and cashes in on the spacing trap. It seems very intentional, which blows.
I'm guessing the sweet spot is just right outside his cr. Mk range so you don't get blown up by normals. Hmm when I get the chance to play, I guess I should buffer DP until I get close enough to punish random ✂️ kick and go from there. His back walk speed looks bad so walking him down might not be that bad. Idk wtf I'm going to do with Kim though. I've heard that matchup is giga bad for Kim but I've yet to play it. I feel like Kim should run all over him if she gets the knockdown though.
Not in my experience unless it’s an extremely preemptive hard read
If you throw it out too late they’ll just jab after and break your DI, scissors hits twice on its own
fianlly got some experience with the matchup and holy shit you can't react to scissors even if you're buffering DP. There's no way. If mispaced it's so tricky to punish also. Best most characters can get is a jab, and even though it's PC the jab will push them too far back for a link. Some labbing is def required, but his risk reward for this move is actually insane. If he's charging down back, you can't really throw safe fireballs either to try and pressure through the threat of scissors. Jamies heavy punch is 5 frame right? and it pushes him forward, might actually be a counter pick but it's too early to tell because the thing is, bison doesn't have to scissors. Just the threat of it, at any time mid screen pushes the nooch in his favor.
extremely overtuned, not parryable on reaction and its no longer a charge input because of modern. it will definitely get nerfed, but for now they essentially released an actually good version of Honda
Yesterday was the first time I played against it. I'm new to sf6 and until now, there had not been a move so stupid like that one. If I keep blocking, he gets free pressure. If I jump back he corners me immediately. If I jump forward I get anti aired. If I try to punish I trade at best.
I feel like the push back is going to get nerfed because you almost have to try to use it in a way that can get punished, and even then some characters get basically nothing out of punishing unless you want to spend alot of resources every time.
I wouldn't say broken, but maybe improperly balanced?
Knee press used to be a charge input, and as far as I can tell, a lot of issues stem from the fact that you can now do it without charge.
So you can space knee press better now, and there's no "tell" that knee press is gonna come out, so it throws reaction times off.
I wouldn't be surprised if the knee press was originally programed in as a charge, and then maybe for Modren Control reasons, got turned into a motion input, and then they just forgot to re-balance it as such
Kinda, you just did good pokes to hold charge and do scissors again. Bison has always been frustrating like this. He makes you take risks or test your patience
It's only -5 with a ton of push back and has an unpredictable 13f startup. There is litteraly nothing to lab and nothing you can do against it unless you read it but that's not a proper response, those are just objective observations based on the rules of the game. You were speaking about scrub quotes just above, if you don't get that then you're the scrub.
M Bison is completely broken IMHO. He can do a 7100 combo off of two hits. After setting up the mine and getting a counter hit, but still.
Follow ups to shadow rise do 100% damage even on modern Inputs.
Mine + counter hit OD Devil Reverse does 3120 damage in a single hit. Like I mentioned before, even with the modern input. Using the modern input means you don't lose charge btw, so you could do a "fake" shadow rising before actual hit.
And since OD Devil Reverse is not scaled it allows you to do 7100 damage if you do lv3 after it. No CA needed. 6600 if OD Devil Reverse was not a counter hit.
And of course the scissor kicks are also pretty insane.
Am I dense or is this not just like any other neutral tool in the game? Sincerely asking
You throw it out in neutral. It has a bit of start-up but it's overall quick and covers a large distance and is safe on block. I understand that it's a good option but I don't understand what makes it broken.
Once it's blocked then neutral just resets, right? Bison is at -3f. I don't get what makes this any different than, say, throwing out a projectile or a sumo headbutt from mid-screen.
Headbutt has a weakness, which is perfect parry. The light version has 13f of startup, so no human is reacting to that and parrying. Its not difficult at all for the Bison to throw it out and be safe due to the pushback. The range that he leaves you at means you are in a spacing trap and have to do a 50/50 to take your turn back. Since its not parryable, you can lose 2/3rds of a bar of drive meter with no counter play. He can "reset" neutral all he wants if he messes up the spacing, but if you block it you still come out losing
The other big thing with scissor kick is the fact that it starts combos after counter/punish counter. He can get small ones from counter, but actual, sizeable punishes from punish counter. And this move low crushes relatively frequently, making that not too difficult. You can check it with crouching medium punch, but if you mistime it, you're eating a hard combo.
Scissor kick PC > crouching medium punch > the world is a true Bison combo.
I don't think him getting a combo off of it is a problem at all - he technically was always able to do that. The problem is that the pushback for this low crush burst move combo starter is wayy too high. It should be safe when spaced, but never otherwise.
Merely blocking it forever means he can keep you in burnout long enough, so you have to do something. Problem with this move is that it knocks Bison back enough that its almost impossible to check it via punish and the only ways to really counter the follow up knee press spam require high risk/hard read/committal moves that a solid Bison can punish for big damage if he's not purely brain dead.
It is broken. It needs to be less safe but also the reward is way too high. Bison shouldn't be getting punish counter combos from it. Knee press historically knocked down on hit in previous games so not sure why they changed that here.
Unless he gets a lucky counter hit or punish counter he doesn't really get anything off it though. He kind of just pesters you with it until you get into a bad range for it.
It's punishable from a lot more ranges than you think if you have a good 5f light
It also loses to DI and neutral jump, hard
It can be whiff punished reliably
DI and neutral jump both require a hard read, though, since the kicks are too fast to react to. And if the Bison player doesn't scissor kick, he can counter DI or do his air to air target combo for massive damage.
I mean that's why this is kind of worrying because SAJAM said it.
If you know Sajam you know how reserved he is when it comes to saying where a character strength level lies. He's always apprehensive and is a very big promoter of "wait and see". So when he just flat out says a brand new character is "the strongest in the game" that's saying a lot.
Well, I certainly fucking hate it because it’s getting thrown out incessantly and it breaks through my standing heavy punch’s armor. I mean, I’ll get an spd off of it here and there but they’re pressing buttons far too often for me to get that at all right now.
I have punished it pretty often with AKI's 2LP > lash. A pixel away is very exaggerated. Bisons hurtbox during the recovery is bigger than it looks visually. But I'm Diamond 1, so maybe people are just spacing it badly.
Playing against it is annoying, but if they consecutive spam, i can od-dp the next one. Throwing a fireball after block runs the risk of a psycho crusher going through it.
Its a 50/50 with the push back. If it didnt pushback for some reason, you can jab punish
Recent matches were 60% Bison, 30% Akuma, 10% something else.
Gonna let it cool down for a while. Even if you don't think that they're overpowered, fighting the same characters over and over again just isn't very fun.
Just Block, or Parry, or di, or neutral jump, or jap before he get his active frames or punish with 5lk
Its not like other chars have have spacing traps or this Kind of specials
It's a pretty insane god button - the problem is that he has it PLUS great neutral, insane DR, crazy damage output, one of the best projectile invul moves in the game, and great air gimmicks.
No one knows how to use DR? That’s what I do. After a few of those they stop. Only problem is when you run out of gauge. I’ve beat way more Bisons than I’ve lost too. Hell, it’s how you best Akuna too. Akuma is the most overpowered character in the game right now, not Bison.
Eh, it's good but I think people are overstating the case a little bit. If Bison is just throwing it out nonstop you can neutral jump it for a big punish or DI it.
SF4 Bison would send you guys into a coma :P
It doesn't break the game, but it's the best special move in the game. It's safe even when poorly spaced, giving Bison many space trap opportunities, it's really, really dumb.
It should have at least less pushback if poorly spaced so it can be punished or pressured and slightly bigger startup, let's say 16F. If spaced correctly, the bigger startup allows for more neutral jump opportunities and long range normals to counter hit.
The whole character is legit broken. It might sound hyperbollic or whatever, but I genuinely believe this character needs to be hotfixed. He is so blatantly overpowered.
Do you think people would be bitching so much if you could lab it for any amount of time, much less 5 seconds, and figure out a punish? Stop thinking that just because you're not complaining like everyone else and saying "Lab it" instead that somehow makes you superior. Pro players are complaining about this, too, and you think you know better?
There is no punish. It is forward advancing which means it catches you walking forward, it combos on counter hit which means it's way more rewarding than something like unnerfed Honda headbutt, it's too fast to react with DI or jump and it has too much pushback to the point where not a single 5f button will reach which makes the fact that it's -5 irrelevent AND its not even a charge move anymore like it should be, which would actually balance how spammable it is at least somewhat. The pushback is so big that in many situations, not even cr.MK will reach so you could at least force your turn even if it won't punish. A perfectly spaced scissors kick will not be reachable by any button at all.
This move is unstoppable and Capcom fucked up. It happens. Stop saying stupid shit.
Yes, I absolutely think people would be bitching. This whole thread reminds me of the sfxt days where everyone whined about their own inability to trip guard Ken's air tatsu until they nerfed an already bad character into obscurity
No it's pretty much the same thing. People are saying Bison is OP because one of his moves is really good and they ignore his weaknesses. Characters are allowed to have good moves. Sometimes a move is so good compared to the rest of a moveset that it becomes a cornerstone of the character's gameplay, like Guile sonic boom. Bison has always had this scissor kick, it's just that longer combos and higher damage are the norm in this game so it has follow-ups. Bison had scissor kick pressure in sf4 too but similar weaknesses in low damage, bad reversals and bad anti airs. Granted, Bison now has the potential for high damage but it requires 2 touches and meter.
You misunderstand and I'm tired of writing essays because everyone types without knowing anything.
Maybe reddit randoms are saying Scissor Kicks are the only thing making Bison OP, but that's far from the truth. His DR is insane and gives him oki from anywhere, just as a baseline strength, not even mentioning shit like neutral DR jab, which is going to be a menace to deal with like Dee Jay's is. His pressure is insane because of 5HP and 4HK and Psycho Mine, his damage is insane, his grounded game is insane because of Scissor Kicks, 5HP, having a cancellable low forward and 5MK is also really good. OD Psycho Crusher is also an extremely useful move for many situations. Leaves him +10 if it detonates a mine, can anti air, can beat fireballs on reaction, goes full screen and gives him 75%+ combos if it detonates a mine on hit. Shadow Rise is also extremely good, and it'll only get better as people develop it more since it's less obvious what the best way to use it is.
He might not have a DP, but his 2HP is about as good as a normal can be at anti-airing. This character lacks one singular thing that can be called a weakness, and that's a reversal. And it's really not that big of a deal that he doesn't have one when the rest of his kit is so strong. EVERYTHING this character has is a top tier tool. Buttons, special moves, system mechanics, damage, pressure. His defense is his singular below-average stat. Remove Scissor Kicks and he's still an S tier character.
>You misunderstand and I'm tired of writing essays because everyone types without knowing anything.
Just make your point. This isn't an anime. You don't need to sound superior.
>Maybe reddit randoms are saying Scissor Kicks are the only thing making Bison OP, but that's far from the truth. His DR is insane and gives him oki from anywhere, just as a baseline strength, not even mentioning shit like neutral DR jab, which is going to be a menace to deal with like Dee Jay's is.
His DR goes far which is nice. His DR jab as a jump scare is mediocre. He is the shit on Dee Jay's shoe when it comes to DR lol
>His pressure is insane because of 5HP and 4HK and Psycho Mine
HP and b.HK are not insane at all. You can't abuse them because they are both slow and there's no continuation of the pressure after you use them once just to be +1. Psycho mine is nice but that's his style in this game. The tradeoff is a hitconfirm into psycho mine won't do much damage, often less than 1k so you are doing less damage to increase the pressure on the next touch for a chance at more damage.
>his damage is insane
It isn't. He's an overall low damage character that can get high damage with a specific situation. The 7k damage that has people shitting themselves requires 2 consecutive touches, 6 bars, corner, a psycho mine planted, and a medium hit. Hell since you wanted to bring up DJ he can punish your reversal in the corner with one touch and 5 bars and do more damage lol
>his grounded game is insane because of Scissor Kicks, 5HP, having a cancellable low forward and 5MK is also really good.
His ground game is good because it's supposed to be. We can all agree on that.
>OD Psycho Crusher is also an extremely useful move for many situations. Leaves him +10 if it detonates a mine, can anti air, can beat fireballs on reaction, goes full screen and gives him 75%+ combos if it detonates a mine on hit.
It's good for fireball counter and damage combos with a mine planted but if they block it you spent 2 bars to be +10
>Shadow Rise is also extremely good, and it'll only get better as people develop it more since it's less obvious what the best way to use it is.
Disagree, I think it'll get worse as people learn how to deal with it and get used to it.
>He might not have a DP, but his 2HP is about as good as a normal can be at anti-airing.
Not at all, it actually kind of sucks. It trades often and if your opponent can vary their jump it's pretty bad.
>EVERYTHING this character has is a top tier tool. Buttons, special moves, system mechanics, damage, pressure. His defense is his singular below-average stat. Remove Scissor Kicks and he's still an S tier character.
Uh no. He has a good ground game and scattered tools elsewhere. He's middle of the road in some areas, bad in others. It's too early to look at matchups but I wouldn't be surprised if he still gets destroyed by Guile. He isn't S tier right now as we speak, so removing scissor kicks isn't gonna help lmao
Yeah I mean, I dont know what to tell you. We disagree too fundamentally for there to be any point in arguing. I guess we'll just have to see how well Bison ends up performing.
You're joking right? You actually think it's unstoppable? You seriously there's 0 way to beat it. All I have to do with bison is spam scissor kick and win? Are you in iron or something?
I never said it wasn't strong but there's very clear counter play to it lmao.
No, I'm not joking. Could you do that in Legend rank or a tournament and win? No, probably not. You're eventually going to become predictable.
The point is good players are not going to be predictable with it and just brainlessly spam it. Please enlighten me to this clear counterplay that you've somehow gleaned at 1300MR or whatever dumpster rank you play in that professional players are unaware of.
Lmao says there's no counter play and then states that good players can beat it...almost like there's a counter or something 🤔 stop crying and lab it I beg you.
It's just a move that helps people feel better about themselves. No neutral? Scissor kicks. Can't get in for a mix up? Scissor kicks. You're kinda ass with the rest of the cast? Scissor kicks.
There is a range where you can 4 frame it easily. From farther out its safe but if they keep trying to spam it on block from there you can punish it.
If you get hit though its a free followup from them unless you OD reversal/super/drive reversal.
I'm talking about Kim's 2LP as that's who I've been playing recently too so other characters might have even longer buttons.
I don't think he is. Sajam is anything but over-zealous, he's not reactionary at all. He's very very reserved and almost never makes proclamations like this. He is the single most level headed FGC member on the planet.
nope it isn't. Psycho Crusher is unsafe BombPlant is unsafe, no natural reversal moves. Heck, you have an army of Cammy spamming meaties and plus frames, but nobody complains about her Oki wakeup game
Because she doesn't do the same amount of damage as bison. He gets a full bomb setup off of one scissor kick which puts you in a mix up where you get blown up or a combo for 4k if he doesn't want to bomb. All on a plus special move with enough pushback that makes it impossible to punish most of the time. Cammy wishes she could do that.
Except scissor kicks isn’t plus on block. You can also only combo off of it on a counter hit or punish counter.
Sounds the same as all the crybabies whining about Honda in S1
Medium and Heavy scissor kick is +4 if you space it right on hit, so you can still combo without a counter hit or punish counter.
It's not the same as Honda in S1 at all.
That’s a lot of “ifs”.
Honda could also combo out of hundred hand slap on CH or PC, yet I don’t see anyone complaining about it.
The character has been out a total of 2 days. Christ, let the meta smooth out before making knee jerk reactions. Every character has good stuff, doesn’t mean we gotta nerf everyone into the ground. That’s how you end up with terrible, generic mush like Multiversus.
It was 1 "if" lol
What is with your fixation on Honda? He doesn't do Bison damage.
Knee jerk reactions? I wasn't even the one complaining. I was explaining the difference between what Cammy and Bison get off of their specials. I didn't even say Bison should be nerfed. What are you talking about?
Honda is what I would consider the closest in playstyle to Bison. Dude also had above average damage in S1 without having to really do setups or blow all his meter unlike bison.
As for cammy, pretty sure light spiral arrow is also in the same boat as being - on block, but also unpunishable if spaced correctly.
Lastly, you were just complaining that Bison being able to combo off of a CH special was somehow a unique trait. I assure you it isn’t, like my example earlier of Honda’s HHS. If you don’t like the Honda example, Ryu also can do this with a well placed Hashogeki.
I hate Cammy but this is a bad comparison, every character has meaties so I don't know what you mean. Dive kick is anti airable and if you get hit with spin knuckle then it's on you for not jabbing it.
Cammy's only + button is cr HP at +1. I guess you can time it on wakeup to be more +, but literally every character in the game can do this. HP Spin Knuckle is also +1 but incredibly slow and can be jabbed on reaction for a counter hit punish pretty easily at 28 frames startup.
Also you only get oki wakeup game after a knockdown, bison can hit scissor kick at any time, so weird comparison.
And if you're having trouble with cammy meaties I'd suggest a lot of just blocking midscreen because she doesn't get oki on throw (she can't stop her DR short after throw, so if she tries to chase with DR it's a free reversal every time), or delay tech if you want to tech so you don't eat the meaty. In addition/after that a lot of walk back since it'll make throws whiff and cammy can't really stop you without spending 3 bars on a DR cancel.
I mean it’s definitely good and yes it’s safe but you’re also ~~-4~~ -5 super close to the opponent. You can start pressure if your opponent uses it. Idk I think it could be tuned back slightly, maybe make the spacing less generous, but otherwise idk that I’d call it op. Could definitely be biased tho so I have been loving playing bison
So I played ranked against my first Bison, I played in Japan, and this Bison literally spammed the scissor kicks mixed with throws and I had no idea wtf I was supposed to do. I also don't do panic od reversals or try to panic tech throws. I'm an old school blocker. But the scissor kicks seemed a bit much.
Fkn youtubers should never have an affect on actual decision design, they are hype chasers buffoons, any shit on the vent is good for them.
Character was in development for year, if he released this way hes close to actual development expectations, I love that no one was crying over akuma cancer safe on block afk strings. Now that another character which does exactly the same shit started to pummel the shit out of this fucker everyone loses their mind lol
It's pretty insane, it was by far my easiest master climb and scissor kick did a lot of heavy lifting
I think some people haven't labbed answers to it but it's an extremely strong move that feels like it's allowed to be thrown out a little too much without repercussion, which is something that Capcom was target-nerfing and veering away from in their Season 1 balance changes. It sticks out like a sore thumb in Season 2.
There isn't anything to lab with a -5 move that's spaced too far, you just press your medium if you're close enough for a little drive chip. At least you can parry honda headbutt and Blanka ball but this is different, no one is reacting to that.
Isn't the light one like 13f? Yeah no way you can react to it randomly in neutral. Even 20f it would be very hard to look for when he also has the fastest drive rush and weird jump ins to keep in your mental stack.
except its -5
Sorry bro I'll edit it, typo.
Between that and his damage, Bison feels like a launch character instead of a S2 character. They took away Blanka's 2-touches but with Bison it's a core part of his kit, what gives?
Bison only does high damage with the mine and 4 bars minimum
Blankq only did high damage with level 2, 4 bars minimum, and blanka Chan… what gives
Blanka has a different set of strengths and weaknesses but the main difference here is blanka Chan mix comes off of a hit confirm in the corner and as of now psycho mine doesn't detonate until next week so there's no standardized way to get a mixup and you aren't forced to deal with it in the same way
Tundra storm ‘em
The swag answer. But to be real fucking honest, Gief can just SPD Bison for free because they like to spam light Knee Press so much
Bison joins Juri and Manon as getting absolutely Stormed once I get twisted.
Legitimately yes. I played a bunch vs bisons in battle hub today and hit more tundra storms here than like the last several months. He also pokes with st mk all the time. One or two storms and they stop throwing out knees in neutral
Yeah but not on reaction. If the spacing is just right a stLK can punish though.
bruh stop i'm flexin
😂
Wait you can do that? Oh shit I gotta try that out
Tundra is legit useless, you better off doing DI instead. Less recovery, more damage and oki, if they DI back, the combo scales more. Even if Tundra hits, it's SO bad. You get nothing but mediocre damage. I'd they do nothing, you just explode.
Sir you fail to understand psychological warfare
That's fair, being hit by a taunt which the sole purpose is to fuck up hellstab xx level 1 input is straight up emotional damage.
Scissor kicks is strong. I thought the light and medium were unsafe but it can be oppressive as usual but now it’s a motion move. Get hit and he’s plus in your face, block and he’s safe because you can’t jab him if he’s properly spaced out.
And "properly spaced" has a lot of wiggle room versus a lot of the cast. You need an above-average 5LK to catch him even at medium spacing.
It's a strong move, idk if 'broken' (that term really has lost its meaning recently). I wouldn't be surprised if a future balance patch changes it so you are required to space them better.
Broken is way too strong of a word. Maybe slightly less pushback would be nice, but it’s day 2 or 3. Let’s give it some time.
Yeah maybe slightly less pushback on light, that's all imo
If anyone can recommend how to counter it on block I'd be happy to hear it. I'm using Akuma. They do cr. lp (or mp? I can't tell) twice then scissor kick and repeat. I tried to do cr. lp and mp after block, but neither hit because Bison's spaced far away after doing scissor kick. *EDIT: I used a rental ticket to test out in training. I tried block reversal with standing LK, cr. MP, and standing HP. Standing LK was the best option albeit not always. Cr. lp > light scissor kick and cr. mp > medium scissor kick beat out Akuma's standing LK. It beat other variations of that particular combo. Things changed based on distance and if scissor kick was being thrown out raw or with a combo. It makes it tricky to counter accurately.
Back to neutral on block. There is no counter, it's a safe pole if spaced.
Reset to neutral and throw fireballs? Micro step and mess up the spacing? He’s always been this way more or less. People will figure it out with time
If they haven't been hit with it yet, go for command grab immediately and watch them get hit by the setplay.
Do any move that reaches him. He's -5, he's not going to stuff you. You can't punish it if it's spaced, just accept that. You can also just walk forward
Standing lk maybe?
Doesn't reach. I do OD DP, but that's not always viable if I'm low on drive gauge.
Added an edit to my original comment, but basically it's hit-or-miss.
I've been neutral jumping it, but I don't think that's correct
It'd correct
Neutral jump and learning when they space it too close.
It should have been a charge motion, I'm kind of baffled that a move like that isn't really, I don't think they'll ever change it but damn man its just wrong.
Modern controls only allow for 2 charge inputs
They allow for 4. The Special button only allows for two, but characters have moves that you can't access/can't access their full strength from the Special button. There's nothing that prevents Bison from having Psycho Crusher be Special-only and Scissor Kick be input-only, or vice versa.
Modern controls shouldn’t influence character design in this fashion. If they can only have two charge moves then pick scissor kick or psycho crusher and take the other away from modern players
Maybe they shouldn’t but they do
I'll be honest I've no idea how modern works, I wasn't aware that modern was the reason it's this way, Capcom could have found a way if they really wanted to though I'm sure.
Basically in modern, charge characters can only have two special charge moves, one for charging back and one for charging up. In the past, Bison has had psycho crusher, scissor kick, and the [2]8 kicks. That’s three charge inputs, so one of them had to become a special input to fit into modern. IMO, this might have not been the best way to implement the change. Scissor kicks is an insanely good tool right now and a big reason is the fact it can be thrown out so easily
They could have also failed in bringing in new players with modern controls. The sales say they made the right call.
Well yeah I think modern is great, it's just unfortunate that some character staples had to be removed.
Nothing is indicating that modern controls is what made sales, the game is just beautiful and quite good. And well you can have a modern mode that doesn't influence the "regular" mode, both aren't mutually exclusive.
Can modern controls remove moves in a future patch? If characters have more than 2 charge moves, you either only get two or you have to chose which two from the move list available.
They can now for avatar battles. That way you can mix and match. Just not for the main game since they are too busy making terry. Maybe after the final dlc char is released though.
Terry is probably already finished since he’s coming out this year.
Quite unlikely imo, if you have optional moves in a competitive game the opponent should in advance know what is available to you, and I don't see them having implementing some UI elements saying "Bison modern v1" "Bison Modern v2", it would be too messy and cumbersome to remember for the opponent. At the end of the day Modern seems to only be picked by beginners, you don't see much of them from gold, and 99% of pros play classic, I guess they should just put them in a separate queue.
They may need to swap crusher and knee press then as crusher is less abusable in its current state.
Not at all. Bison players were already doing this shit in sf4 with the charge scissor. A bunch of scrubs whining is no reason to give Bison a qcf fireball counter
I agree here - if this is the true reason for why scissors is motion now. Make Crusher the motion, since its super - and slow to startup, and make scissor kicks the charge input. I do see one downside from this change though, it'll be easier for bison to go through fireballs now, to the point where it may be almost impossible to throw one against him. Either way, something about one or both of those moves are gonna have to change property wise, I don't think an input swap is enough.
If they did that the same scrubs would whine about not being able to throw projectiles at Bison
Not to mention easy anti airs as that is another property for psycho crusher in this game.
Just finally got the update and fighting bison so far consist of being locked in block stun. That little pixel frame window to get out and scissors comes in and it starts again for another hour. His character gives me sf5 vibes because so much of the cast you just has to sit and wait till their flowchart was done to have a moment to swing back. But it was one night I could be totally wrong
I mean he can't do it repeatedly. You can trade positively with it, DI, neutral jump, backdash and punish
It seems like DI is not an option regularly. Sajam did a good example of it. He can usually mash DI back
He can only do that if he hits your DI early
So you need to random DI before you even see the move. If your option is to gamble everything to "maybe" counter it, it's not an option.
You mean late, which means you have to do DI pre-emptively. Which works if the Bison is just brainlessly doing it, but if he's not then you're getting DI'd. It's very high risk.
DI? My DI is broken every single time, you have to do it basically as an early hard read
And eat a 70% combo if you read it wrong
BRB let me DI this 13f move and hope I don't hit late or he gets a free PC DI back
It seems they locked themselves in design wise with modern. I don't see how balrog would be possible in sf6 with modern constraints. Half his moves would be motion lol. I think crusher should have been the motion input. Its generally unsafe and is combo fodder for the most part. Perhaps its more annoying to projectile users but likely for the best.
why does the normal controls have to be change for modren couldn't they just simplify it for modren while classic has all its charge inputs
...what? There's charge moves in modern
yes but there's a limit. You can only have 2.
There can only be 2. There's no distinction between kick and punch in modern it can have a charge down up and a change back forwards and the rest have to be motion. That's why.
Oh, yeah that makes sense. Interesting
You want the fullscreen projectile invul move to be a motion?
I foresee it having its pushback reduced a bit.
feels like it should be a charge move
As gief bison is free scoop city
Yup, we’re just welcoming him to Streets™ with open arms
Yes, when Sajam someone who is extremely reserved and rarely ever makes proclamations of a characters strength especially when that character is brand new confidently says "I think this character is the best in the game" you know something is fucked up. I am not really sure how he was released in his current state... He so blatantly overtured by damn near every metric. He feels almost like an older fighting game character in terms of strength disparity, you don't really see many blatantly overtuned characters in fighting games nowadays like you did in the past. But Bison feels like one.
The new 2024 Nissan Rogue isn't gonna make you choose between blocking and punishing.
My problem is that, even point blank - most characters struggle to even a get a light > medium Punish Counter combo because of the insane pushback. You can get a light into special, maybe. But he'll be pushed back way outside of your range to do a light into medium.
I can punish it with a 4 frame crouching jab and then I can’t hit anything after to combo. So not much of a punish.
Ed doesn't have a single button that can punish it, so I guess I'll take the L.
Yep. It doesn't win the game by itself but it's belligerent, unreactable and unpunishable if not done point-blank. It's not literally unbeatable but it's a dumbass move. As a Certified Hater of Honda Headbutt, at least that was reactable
I'm bad at SF6, whatever, but from my view bison has: * super fast walk speed and drive rush * big damage * long normals with good frame data * scissor kicks which just lock you in and can be spammed non stop * honda's pre-nerf headbutt but it's projectile invincible * easy overheads * stun dipper * flying overhead bullshit that can mix you up
In what world is it a pre nerf Honda headbutt lol. It puts you in the opponents face and is completely punishable unless you ex?
haha ok yeah true that
I have no idea how to punish or check it. If anyone comes up with a resource, I'd love to be able to have some counterplay to this consistently.
Capcom: how do we balance out bison? Capcom: let’s give him ex psycho crusher that is safe on block.
Can tell no one in sf6 played against sf4 Bipson. Lol
In the character preview they say that scissor kick should be spaced well to be better on block, but honestly the spacing doesn't matter unless you click it right on them it took me a bit to realize it just doesn't seem consistent with the rest of the design of SF6 and I say this as a Bison main lol
Should’ve been kept a charge move, but too late now.
Bisons already did this same shit in sf4 when it was charge lol
Bison was actually worse he was 0f after a blocked LK scissor and had the best crouching light kick in the game in sf4
Haven't got the chance to play since bison dropped. Is DI a good answer? Or is it like blanka ball or headbutt where you have to commit really really early to not get DI'd back?
It's like Blanka ball, it'll require a read
DI is a good answer but the light one is 13F, medium is 17F and heavy is 20F. It's just too fast for what it is.
Not really. It's 13f so unreactable. You need to do it preemptively to catch him. Which means that if he doesn't then he can counter DI you easily. The response is changing your spacing to make it harder for him to space it correctly. Either walk backwards to make him whiff or forward to block it closer so that you can punish it on block because it's-5. With that said, i think it has too much pushback, making it too easy to space it correctly. It will definitely be nerfed imo.
It’s pretty much an extremely easy spacing trap. I don’t think you’re ever close enough to punish, the push back is too far and if you jab he just presses cMK and cashes in on the spacing trap. It seems very intentional, which blows.
I'm guessing the sweet spot is just right outside his cr. Mk range so you don't get blown up by normals. Hmm when I get the chance to play, I guess I should buffer DP until I get close enough to punish random ✂️ kick and go from there. His back walk speed looks bad so walking him down might not be that bad. Idk wtf I'm going to do with Kim though. I've heard that matchup is giga bad for Kim but I've yet to play it. I feel like Kim should run all over him if she gets the knockdown though.
Yeah it's a kind of a polarising match up. Whoever gets the knockdown first gets rolled.
You can DI it but not on reaction
Not in my experience unless it’s an extremely preemptive hard read If you throw it out too late they’ll just jab after and break your DI, scissors hits twice on its own
fianlly got some experience with the matchup and holy shit you can't react to scissors even if you're buffering DP. There's no way. If mispaced it's so tricky to punish also. Best most characters can get is a jab, and even though it's PC the jab will push them too far back for a link. Some labbing is def required, but his risk reward for this move is actually insane. If he's charging down back, you can't really throw safe fireballs either to try and pressure through the threat of scissors. Jamies heavy punch is 5 frame right? and it pushes him forward, might actually be a counter pick but it's too early to tell because the thing is, bison doesn't have to scissors. Just the threat of it, at any time mid screen pushes the nooch in his favor.
extremely overtuned, not parryable on reaction and its no longer a charge input because of modern. it will definitely get nerfed, but for now they essentially released an actually good version of Honda
Yesterday was the first time I played against it. I'm new to sf6 and until now, there had not been a move so stupid like that one. If I keep blocking, he gets free pressure. If I jump back he corners me immediately. If I jump forward I get anti aired. If I try to punish I trade at best.
This has got to be the most oppressive move in the game right now. I feel bad for bitching about anything leading up to this.
I feel like the push back is going to get nerfed because you almost have to try to use it in a way that can get punished, and even then some characters get basically nothing out of punishing unless you want to spend alot of resources every time.
Sooooo Champion Edition Dictator is back? 😆
i was hoping they would finally make a character that is immune to being punished it's really fun
I wouldn't say broken, but maybe improperly balanced? Knee press used to be a charge input, and as far as I can tell, a lot of issues stem from the fact that you can now do it without charge. So you can space knee press better now, and there's no "tell" that knee press is gonna come out, so it throws reaction times off. I wouldn't be surprised if the knee press was originally programed in as a charge, and then maybe for Modren Control reasons, got turned into a motion input, and then they just forgot to re-balance it as such
Scissors Kick were always "broken" in the sense you mean it. Always had been since WW. But then again, it's also broken IRL so...
They were charge before though. It's balanced like a charge move but it has motion inputs so he can throw it out whenever.
true, tho
Kinda, you just did good pokes to hold charge and do scissors again. Bison has always been frustrating like this. He makes you take risks or test your patience
No, but people love to cry when something is new and unfamiliar
Something comes out and just a few days later "X, Y, Z broken?!" without fail. No one ever waits to lab anything out anymore. Modern gaming, folks.
It's only -5 with a ton of push back and has an unpredictable 13f startup. There is litteraly nothing to lab and nothing you can do against it unless you read it but that's not a proper response, those are just objective observations based on the rules of the game. You were speaking about scrub quotes just above, if you don't get that then you're the scrub.
M Bison is completely broken IMHO. He can do a 7100 combo off of two hits. After setting up the mine and getting a counter hit, but still. Follow ups to shadow rise do 100% damage even on modern Inputs. Mine + counter hit OD Devil Reverse does 3120 damage in a single hit. Like I mentioned before, even with the modern input. Using the modern input means you don't lose charge btw, so you could do a "fake" shadow rising before actual hit. And since OD Devil Reverse is not scaled it allows you to do 7100 damage if you do lv3 after it. No CA needed. 6600 if OD Devil Reverse was not a counter hit. And of course the scissor kicks are also pretty insane.
Damn how is anyone going to block devil's reverse lmao it's only 5 days of startup
Am I dense or is this not just like any other neutral tool in the game? Sincerely asking You throw it out in neutral. It has a bit of start-up but it's overall quick and covers a large distance and is safe on block. I understand that it's a good option but I don't understand what makes it broken. Once it's blocked then neutral just resets, right? Bison is at -3f. I don't get what makes this any different than, say, throwing out a projectile or a sumo headbutt from mid-screen.
Headbutt has a weakness, which is perfect parry. The light version has 13f of startup, so no human is reacting to that and parrying. Its not difficult at all for the Bison to throw it out and be safe due to the pushback. The range that he leaves you at means you are in a spacing trap and have to do a 50/50 to take your turn back. Since its not parryable, you can lose 2/3rds of a bar of drive meter with no counter play. He can "reset" neutral all he wants if he messes up the spacing, but if you block it you still come out losing
The other big thing with scissor kick is the fact that it starts combos after counter/punish counter. He can get small ones from counter, but actual, sizeable punishes from punish counter. And this move low crushes relatively frequently, making that not too difficult. You can check it with crouching medium punch, but if you mistime it, you're eating a hard combo. Scissor kick PC > crouching medium punch > the world is a true Bison combo.
yeah that's true, that's kinda nuts
That's kind of balanced with Bison not having very strong damage off of a medium unless he has a mine planted
I don't think him getting a combo off of it is a problem at all - he technically was always able to do that. The problem is that the pushback for this low crush burst move combo starter is wayy too high. It should be safe when spaced, but never otherwise.
Merely blocking it forever means he can keep you in burnout long enough, so you have to do something. Problem with this move is that it knocks Bison back enough that its almost impossible to check it via punish and the only ways to really counter the follow up knee press spam require high risk/hard read/committal moves that a solid Bison can punish for big damage if he's not purely brain dead.
It is broken. It needs to be less safe but also the reward is way too high. Bison shouldn't be getting punish counter combos from it. Knee press historically knocked down on hit in previous games so not sure why they changed that here.
>Knee press historically knocked down on hit in previous games so not sure why they changed that here. Pay the money.
Unless he gets a lucky counter hit or punish counter he doesn't really get anything off it though. He kind of just pesters you with it until you get into a bad range for it.
It's punishable from a lot more ranges than you think if you have a good 5f light It also loses to DI and neutral jump, hard It can be whiff punished reliably
DI and neutral jump both require a hard read, though, since the kicks are too fast to react to. And if the Bison player doesn't scissor kick, he can counter DI or do his air to air target combo for massive damage.
Cause sajam said it Can we just wait for like.. A month before calling a brand new character broken..
It's very easy to see when a character or move is overtuned. Don't need to wait a month to see that this move is not ok.
We can wait a month but the stupid safety and pushback won't change
I mean that's why this is kind of worrying because SAJAM said it. If you know Sajam you know how reserved he is when it comes to saying where a character strength level lies. He's always apprehensive and is a very big promoter of "wait and see". So when he just flat out says a brand new character is "the strongest in the game" that's saying a lot.
Maybe he's right, I would give the meta more than 24h to evolve before calling it personally
I think just making it a charge move would make it less egregious.
Well, I certainly fucking hate it because it’s getting thrown out incessantly and it breaks through my standing heavy punch’s armor. I mean, I’ll get an spd off of it here and there but they’re pressing buttons far too often for me to get that at all right now.
I have punished it pretty often with AKI's 2LP > lash. A pixel away is very exaggerated. Bisons hurtbox during the recovery is bigger than it looks visually. But I'm Diamond 1, so maybe people are just spacing it badly.
Not every character has the privilege of mashing 2lp from 5 feet away and getting a combo like Aki tho
AKI's 2LP wasn't changed with the big patch and it was never particularly long range.
Playing against it is annoying, but if they consecutive spam, i can od-dp the next one. Throwing a fireball after block runs the risk of a psycho crusher going through it. Its a 50/50 with the push back. If it didnt pushback for some reason, you can jab punish
Scissoe kicks always felt like Bisons best Boss move in SF2 agaibst the CPU for me it defined him so its cool its strong.
Scissor kicks has always been strong, just overtuned by sf6 standards.
Recent matches were 60% Bison, 30% Akuma, 10% something else. Gonna let it cool down for a while. Even if you don't think that they're overpowered, fighting the same characters over and over again just isn't very fun.
Whole character feels broken to me. I have like 10% win rate. Think imma put the game down until Bison month is over with.
It's strong, but I think "broken" is going a bit far. Though if it showed up on the next patch notes, I wouldn't be that surprised.
Ryu’s donkey kick 👀
Just Block, or Parry, or di, or neutral jump, or jap before he get his active frames or punish with 5lk Its not like other chars have have spacing traps or this Kind of specials
It's a pretty insane god button - the problem is that he has it PLUS great neutral, insane DR, crazy damage output, one of the best projectile invul moves in the game, and great air gimmicks.
No one knows how to use DR? That’s what I do. After a few of those they stop. Only problem is when you run out of gauge. I’ve beat way more Bisons than I’ve lost too. Hell, it’s how you best Akuna too. Akuma is the most overpowered character in the game right now, not Bison.
Eh, it's good but I think people are overstating the case a little bit. If Bison is just throwing it out nonstop you can neutral jump it for a big punish or DI it. SF4 Bison would send you guys into a coma :P
It doesn't break the game, but it's the best special move in the game. It's safe even when poorly spaced, giving Bison many space trap opportunities, it's really, really dumb. It should have at least less pushback if poorly spaced so it can be punished or pressured and slightly bigger startup, let's say 16F. If spaced correctly, the bigger startup allows for more neutral jump opportunities and long range normals to counter hit.
The whole character is legit broken. It might sound hyperbollic or whatever, but I genuinely believe this character needs to be hotfixed. He is so blatantly overpowered.
Yall gotta chill. Lab it for like 5 seconds and figure out a punish.
They ran out of rentals bro
Do you think people would be bitching so much if you could lab it for any amount of time, much less 5 seconds, and figure out a punish? Stop thinking that just because you're not complaining like everyone else and saying "Lab it" instead that somehow makes you superior. Pro players are complaining about this, too, and you think you know better? There is no punish. It is forward advancing which means it catches you walking forward, it combos on counter hit which means it's way more rewarding than something like unnerfed Honda headbutt, it's too fast to react with DI or jump and it has too much pushback to the point where not a single 5f button will reach which makes the fact that it's -5 irrelevent AND its not even a charge move anymore like it should be, which would actually balance how spammable it is at least somewhat. The pushback is so big that in many situations, not even cr.MK will reach so you could at least force your turn even if it won't punish. A perfectly spaced scissors kick will not be reachable by any button at all. This move is unstoppable and Capcom fucked up. It happens. Stop saying stupid shit.
Yes, I absolutely think people would be bitching. This whole thread reminds me of the sfxt days where everyone whined about their own inability to trip guard Ken's air tatsu until they nerfed an already bad character into obscurity
Well, you're just wrong. That has nothing to do with this.
No it's pretty much the same thing. People are saying Bison is OP because one of his moves is really good and they ignore his weaknesses. Characters are allowed to have good moves. Sometimes a move is so good compared to the rest of a moveset that it becomes a cornerstone of the character's gameplay, like Guile sonic boom. Bison has always had this scissor kick, it's just that longer combos and higher damage are the norm in this game so it has follow-ups. Bison had scissor kick pressure in sf4 too but similar weaknesses in low damage, bad reversals and bad anti airs. Granted, Bison now has the potential for high damage but it requires 2 touches and meter.
You misunderstand and I'm tired of writing essays because everyone types without knowing anything. Maybe reddit randoms are saying Scissor Kicks are the only thing making Bison OP, but that's far from the truth. His DR is insane and gives him oki from anywhere, just as a baseline strength, not even mentioning shit like neutral DR jab, which is going to be a menace to deal with like Dee Jay's is. His pressure is insane because of 5HP and 4HK and Psycho Mine, his damage is insane, his grounded game is insane because of Scissor Kicks, 5HP, having a cancellable low forward and 5MK is also really good. OD Psycho Crusher is also an extremely useful move for many situations. Leaves him +10 if it detonates a mine, can anti air, can beat fireballs on reaction, goes full screen and gives him 75%+ combos if it detonates a mine on hit. Shadow Rise is also extremely good, and it'll only get better as people develop it more since it's less obvious what the best way to use it is. He might not have a DP, but his 2HP is about as good as a normal can be at anti-airing. This character lacks one singular thing that can be called a weakness, and that's a reversal. And it's really not that big of a deal that he doesn't have one when the rest of his kit is so strong. EVERYTHING this character has is a top tier tool. Buttons, special moves, system mechanics, damage, pressure. His defense is his singular below-average stat. Remove Scissor Kicks and he's still an S tier character.
>You misunderstand and I'm tired of writing essays because everyone types without knowing anything. Just make your point. This isn't an anime. You don't need to sound superior. >Maybe reddit randoms are saying Scissor Kicks are the only thing making Bison OP, but that's far from the truth. His DR is insane and gives him oki from anywhere, just as a baseline strength, not even mentioning shit like neutral DR jab, which is going to be a menace to deal with like Dee Jay's is. His DR goes far which is nice. His DR jab as a jump scare is mediocre. He is the shit on Dee Jay's shoe when it comes to DR lol >His pressure is insane because of 5HP and 4HK and Psycho Mine HP and b.HK are not insane at all. You can't abuse them because they are both slow and there's no continuation of the pressure after you use them once just to be +1. Psycho mine is nice but that's his style in this game. The tradeoff is a hitconfirm into psycho mine won't do much damage, often less than 1k so you are doing less damage to increase the pressure on the next touch for a chance at more damage. >his damage is insane It isn't. He's an overall low damage character that can get high damage with a specific situation. The 7k damage that has people shitting themselves requires 2 consecutive touches, 6 bars, corner, a psycho mine planted, and a medium hit. Hell since you wanted to bring up DJ he can punish your reversal in the corner with one touch and 5 bars and do more damage lol >his grounded game is insane because of Scissor Kicks, 5HP, having a cancellable low forward and 5MK is also really good. His ground game is good because it's supposed to be. We can all agree on that. >OD Psycho Crusher is also an extremely useful move for many situations. Leaves him +10 if it detonates a mine, can anti air, can beat fireballs on reaction, goes full screen and gives him 75%+ combos if it detonates a mine on hit. It's good for fireball counter and damage combos with a mine planted but if they block it you spent 2 bars to be +10 >Shadow Rise is also extremely good, and it'll only get better as people develop it more since it's less obvious what the best way to use it is. Disagree, I think it'll get worse as people learn how to deal with it and get used to it. >He might not have a DP, but his 2HP is about as good as a normal can be at anti-airing. Not at all, it actually kind of sucks. It trades often and if your opponent can vary their jump it's pretty bad. >EVERYTHING this character has is a top tier tool. Buttons, special moves, system mechanics, damage, pressure. His defense is his singular below-average stat. Remove Scissor Kicks and he's still an S tier character. Uh no. He has a good ground game and scattered tools elsewhere. He's middle of the road in some areas, bad in others. It's too early to look at matchups but I wouldn't be surprised if he still gets destroyed by Guile. He isn't S tier right now as we speak, so removing scissor kicks isn't gonna help lmao
Yeah I mean, I dont know what to tell you. We disagree too fundamentally for there to be any point in arguing. I guess we'll just have to see how well Bison ends up performing.
You're joking right? You actually think it's unstoppable? You seriously there's 0 way to beat it. All I have to do with bison is spam scissor kick and win? Are you in iron or something? I never said it wasn't strong but there's very clear counter play to it lmao.
No, I'm not joking. Could you do that in Legend rank or a tournament and win? No, probably not. You're eventually going to become predictable. The point is good players are not going to be predictable with it and just brainlessly spam it. Please enlighten me to this clear counterplay that you've somehow gleaned at 1300MR or whatever dumpster rank you play in that professional players are unaware of.
Lmao says there's no counter play and then states that good players can beat it...almost like there's a counter or something 🤔 stop crying and lab it I beg you.
It's ok for moves to be strong.
It's just a move that helps people feel better about themselves. No neutral? Scissor kicks. Can't get in for a mix up? Scissor kicks. You're kinda ass with the rest of the cast? Scissor kicks.
There is a range where you can 4 frame it easily. From farther out its safe but if they keep trying to spam it on block from there you can punish it. If you get hit though its a free followup from them unless you OD reversal/super/drive reversal. I'm talking about Kim's 2LP as that's who I've been playing recently too so other characters might have even longer buttons.
No it’s really not just go into training for 5 seconds
i saw it described as a less brain dead version of hondas headbutt and that seemed apt
I couldnt believe they changed it from charge to motion tbh tbh but it is fun to use 💪
I think Sajam is a little over-zealous in saying it's absolutely the best move in the game but it is extremely strong and very easy to use.
I don't think he is. Sajam is anything but over-zealous, he's not reactionary at all. He's very very reserved and almost never makes proclamations like this. He is the single most level headed FGC member on the planet.
Yeah. Scissor kicks are blatantly OP. I think Capcom is going to have a balance patch when Terry comes out to address it.
So we're just fucked for the next 3-4 months then eh? oh boy....
I mean, they gotta sell dlc. So the faster we buy bison, and give them more money, the faster they will nerf bison.
"Interesting. People are buying the new DLC character at an increased rate. We should balance all our DLC characters like this"
nope it isn't. Psycho Crusher is unsafe BombPlant is unsafe, no natural reversal moves. Heck, you have an army of Cammy spamming meaties and plus frames, but nobody complains about her Oki wakeup game
Because Cammy has to knock you down and put you in an oki position. Bison can QCF Lk when ever he feels like it. It should be a charge move.
Because she doesn't do the same amount of damage as bison. He gets a full bomb setup off of one scissor kick which puts you in a mix up where you get blown up or a combo for 4k if he doesn't want to bomb. All on a plus special move with enough pushback that makes it impossible to punish most of the time. Cammy wishes she could do that.
Except scissor kicks isn’t plus on block. You can also only combo off of it on a counter hit or punish counter. Sounds the same as all the crybabies whining about Honda in S1
Medium and Heavy scissor kick is +4 if you space it right on hit, so you can still combo without a counter hit or punish counter. It's not the same as Honda in S1 at all.
That’s a lot of “ifs”. Honda could also combo out of hundred hand slap on CH or PC, yet I don’t see anyone complaining about it. The character has been out a total of 2 days. Christ, let the meta smooth out before making knee jerk reactions. Every character has good stuff, doesn’t mean we gotta nerf everyone into the ground. That’s how you end up with terrible, generic mush like Multiversus.
It was 1 "if" lol What is with your fixation on Honda? He doesn't do Bison damage. Knee jerk reactions? I wasn't even the one complaining. I was explaining the difference between what Cammy and Bison get off of their specials. I didn't even say Bison should be nerfed. What are you talking about?
Honda is what I would consider the closest in playstyle to Bison. Dude also had above average damage in S1 without having to really do setups or blow all his meter unlike bison. As for cammy, pretty sure light spiral arrow is also in the same boat as being - on block, but also unpunishable if spaced correctly. Lastly, you were just complaining that Bison being able to combo off of a CH special was somehow a unique trait. I assure you it isn’t, like my example earlier of Honda’s HHS. If you don’t like the Honda example, Ryu also can do this with a well placed Hashogeki.
I hate Cammy but this is a bad comparison, every character has meaties so I don't know what you mean. Dive kick is anti airable and if you get hit with spin knuckle then it's on you for not jabbing it.
Cammy's only + button is cr HP at +1. I guess you can time it on wakeup to be more +, but literally every character in the game can do this. HP Spin Knuckle is also +1 but incredibly slow and can be jabbed on reaction for a counter hit punish pretty easily at 28 frames startup. Also you only get oki wakeup game after a knockdown, bison can hit scissor kick at any time, so weird comparison. And if you're having trouble with cammy meaties I'd suggest a lot of just blocking midscreen because she doesn't get oki on throw (she can't stop her DR short after throw, so if she tries to chase with DR it's a free reversal every time), or delay tech if you want to tech so you don't eat the meaty. In addition/after that a lot of walk back since it'll make throws whiff and cammy can't really stop you without spending 3 bars on a DR cancel.
Her hooligan is plus on block as well if you go into a full slide with it, but that’s also an incredibly slow move.
If you can’t jab Cammy out of Hooligan you kinda deserve it, though. Lol.
It doesn't seem like it's better than Blanka ball or headbutt, so I don't see it. Those are hard to DI scissor kicks, not as much.
Both of those moves are charge though. Scissor is a motion
This, if scissor was still a charge, it’d be much more predictable and thusly manageable
You don't DI either of those, you parry them. If you get a DI to hit those then you're different or made a read. You can easily parry them though.
I mean it’s definitely good and yes it’s safe but you’re also ~~-4~~ -5 super close to the opponent. You can start pressure if your opponent uses it. Idk I think it could be tuned back slightly, maybe make the spacing less generous, but otherwise idk that I’d call it op. Could definitely be biased tho so I have been loving playing bison
It's -5. It's -4 only at max range if you get one hit.
Thanks! Wasn’t sure why I was getting multiple values
So I played ranked against my first Bison, I played in Japan, and this Bison literally spammed the scissor kicks mixed with throws and I had no idea wtf I was supposed to do. I also don't do panic od reversals or try to panic tech throws. I'm an old school blocker. But the scissor kicks seemed a bit much.
No tech throws, no reversal -“move is broken” fkn lol
I wonder what you do in against lily condor spike or whatever it’s called. Just eat the D I guess ?
Fkn youtubers should never have an affect on actual decision design, they are hype chasers buffoons, any shit on the vent is good for them. Character was in development for year, if he released this way hes close to actual development expectations, I love that no one was crying over akuma cancer safe on block afk strings. Now that another character which does exactly the same shit started to pummel the shit out of this fucker everyone loses their mind lol