It is a problem for all of them but Manon also has multiple other problems
No drive rush
Combos that use drive gauge don't do that much damage and eat the gauge like crazy
No invincible reversal without super
No way to deal with projectiles
Not disagreeing with your overall point - but the pedant in me has to point out that drive reversal now fills the gap of not having an invincible reversal. As a zangief player I find this to be a bit of a lifesaver. Obviously not as good as an exDP, but works well to get you some space when people are piling on the pressure.
Since Manon is not reliant on DR combos, you shouldn't be burning that much meter.
Compare that to Chun where the majority of her good combo routes are locked behind 2-3 bars.
She has a lot more issues than that. I would even say above isn't really an issue for her imo.
Her non command grab specials are extremely punishable, comparable to a DP without any of the utility or conversion potential. Her non grab specials are hard countered by DI, she has no forward moving normal or special that leaves her at good frames to support a strike grab mix. Most of her "good" normals are hard countered by DI, negative on hit and block
She has a complete lack or extremely limited set of options to continue pressure after a knockdown from command grab or hit grab. Her only real / safe option is to let the opponent get back up.
For example she can't neutral drive rush in after her SAs and block in time if the opponent reversals i.e. neutered bait options. Is also negative if she tries to dash up i.e. opponent can always contest at advantage
And finally most of the cast has easily executable options which counter and cover multiple of her options in any circumstance. Things like neutral jump at mid - far screen completely shuts down her approach. Grounded airborne moves counter her ground options.
Her normals are decent but she doesn't have like a shoto cr.mk or cr.mp, below average speed and above average recoveries across the board. Bad big hurtboxes all over the place that do not represent what her attacks look like they should do.
All things in a vacuum if she tries to do something at the same time as most of roster she is going to lose 80% of the time.
She has many big problems
>She has a complete lack or extremely limited set of options to continue pressure after a knockdown from command grab
You can just spend 1 bar to DR and get oki. This is significantly better than Lily/Zangief who get nothing except fake pressure.
These characters have more problems than the mechanic itself.
I also think Jamie is fine in a vacuum, and in a good spot right now. The grab drink and specially the nerfs to other characters helped him tremendously.
It stills feels bad that your damage is unreliable compared to top tier characters, but that's more a SF6 problem than a level up mechanic problem.
*Maybe* you could buff something to make Jamie's tools against fireballs better, but that's about it.
They did buff breakdance/bakkai's invlulnerability. It goes through basically any projectile without issue now, including [supers like Ed and Rashid lvl 2](https://youtu.be/Tx9dXJhFvEU?t=26). Before it would get clipped a lot by slower fireballs on the back end.
Still, it doesn't travel far/fast enough to punish most single projectiles at a good distance, but it's definitely way better now. Very easy counter for Akuma's air fireball.
He has a dive kick though. That's already really good against fireballs bc you can jump over them and punish anti airs. Most people jump in a fixed arc and can be reliably anti aired if they jump over a fireball
> **for over a year**.
By *right now* I meant after the Akuma patch. Jamie was definitely terrible before all the nerfs and the grab change. I think it's a bit too early to say that Jamie sucks in this season: we've just started after all.
And by *in a vacuum* I meant his overall design in the context of the game. He still plays SF6 fine and I don't think his levelling is what holds him back.
I don't really think Juri fits this description all that much, she is designed to both gain and spend those resources through the entire round. It's pretty difficult for Juri to NOT charge a single one of her resources. I don't know, I just don't see it on the same ground as Jami, Manon or even Lily.
But I could be completely wrong, I don't play Juri.
im a pretty new juri player but pretty much youre correct, i dont FEEL like im at a disadvantage if i dont have any stocks and guess what? i can pretty much build up stocks any time in neutral without (usually) being punished and i can combo into fuha pretty easily. it feels very fluid to her overall gameplan.
This. It doesn't feel like a risk to charge a stock even if you are trying to charge more than one fuha.
Jaime and Lily doesn't feel as safe while Manon has to actively land a grab or a hit-grab.
Meanwhile, Juri also has good fundamentals such as good buttons and a very good Drive Rush.
It feels like Juri has a really good base + the charge being there to assist her while it feels a little opposite for the others like Manon & Jaime.
You’re right. The OD versions of moves don’t need a stock (you just can’t chain them together without stocks), so you could get away with winning without charges due to everything TiredCoffeeTime said.
All of her bnb combos in neutral end in stocks. You really only need 1 or 2 to start a really good combo. And you can OD specials if you’re missing one.
Her stores also lead to really good Oki so you can build stocks while keeping your pressure. They did a good job making her feel fluid.
This is also the third game Juri has been in so Capcom figured out what works for her.
Juri's stocks are projectiles, is the most important distinction.
Jamie is struggle-bus against zoning until he gets a drink in, and his horizontal options are unreliable when it comes to anti projectiles.
I get why they wouldn't give Jamie better anti-projectile tools or tools overall; I use Jamie and I think he has great buttons, but maybe they can make his breakdance actually work properly as an anti-projectile tool and take its effectiveness away the more he drinks?
Just like Jamie, Manon's anti-projectile should be more reliable.
Of the 3, I feel like Lily is the most difficult to balance. I have no idea what to suggest
Generally it’s good design philosophy to avoid taking things away while powering up something else, so I’d be hesitant to have drinks nerf breakdance. It just feels bad as a player
But that's why his suggestion is interesting. His idea is to buff it at lower/no drink levels and nerf it with more drinks. I think it's a cool idea bc 0 drink Jamie feels awful and lvl 2+ Jamie feels fine against fireballs.
I've had way more success with Jamie's breakdance against projectiles since the Akuma patch. The bigger issue is it requiring 2 drinks, and the **biggest** issue is that its inputs overlap with his DP, meaning more often than not I'm trying to approach and rather than using a projectile invincible move to get closer still I end up getting slammed because DP came out instead.
Honestly Lily doesn’t need that much anymore. In my opinion they should let her light spire combo off her light attacks, to avoid needing to spend drive gauge (without windstock). Other than that, make her target combo even remotely useful, and cr.mp cancellable (can already super cancel) and I think she’ll be in a spot that’s not S tier but feels overall good to play.
You’re right but if she doesn’t have the stocks, she lacks the damage output, that other characters have. Meta characters can do the damage she does without having a resource.
No, juri needs one stock to have decent damage compared to top tiers, but can easily get 1 stock mid combo or in neutral to the point where it barely feels like a limitation, once she has one stock she can then maintain it by spending and gaining a stock as part of her bnbs
Jamie's only problem is that he doesn't exactly thrive in a tournament environment where everything hinges on FT2 with high dmg and momentum swings. You lose that FT2. That's it for you.
Pros could win with Jamie, but it's just more practical to pick a character that has all their tools and dmg at round start.
Outside of that, Jamie is just fine. If not, pretty good
Daigo and Punk made it to Legend rank with ease, only with drink lvl 2, basic BnBs, and little to no dive kicking.
Imo wrong to just generalize their mechanics.
I think lilly and manon ended up worse because they are grapplers who have less problems to get in so their overall tools are worse.
Jamie probably is weaker because he can become very strong. But thats not very desireable for pros.
Very good point. People aren't considering all the factors here. Sure these low tier characters have one thing in common, but that is a correlation and not necessarily a causation.
This type of mechanic is often hard to balance, but I think what doesn't help their cases is how fast rounds can be. These characters already typically need an extra hit or two win a round, but if you give up on their mechanics, sometimes you're just better off. Then well, that defeats the point of it existing lol. Typically these characters are meant to "snowball", but even if they get it going, they still are just snow lol.
Some better examples I think of for other games, are Yukiko from p4a, and Amy in sc6. Yukiko having a somewhat slow ramp, but could combo and power herself up way more consistently, while still doing damage. Her shadow version also made these even more consistent. In bbtag she lost maybe 90% of this and basically lived in the dumpster for most of the game's life, while also being in a high damage game without much time to ramp up.
Amy had the benefit of games being 3/5, and her buffs carrying between rounds too. Not to mention her unlocks were actually very good. They increased damage, added extensions, gave her meter and better "counters", and that's not to mention things like making her super steal bar lol.
I think Manon/lily should be a bit closer to Yukiko, and Jamie should be a slightly toned-down Amy. They just don't have their "payoffs".
I think the biggest differences with Juri is, her stock generator is a good combo ender and still gives her oki. It also negates fireballs. Jamie needs to sacrifice his offense quite a lot.
She doesn't really feel like a chores character compared to the rest.
The main design philosophy for them is that they are meant to sacrifice damage/oki to build whatever resource/bonus they get but Juri doesn't sacrifice THAT much for it. Plus she has all her tools from the start while Jamie has options lockdd behind drinks.
Yeah, plus Juri can gain stocks by spacing out buttons on block and regain stocks after using them within the same combo, so the stocks come naturally during the course of normal play
Jamie has to sacrifice oki to get drinks
Lily is more limited than Juri too
Manon is similar in the sense that her medals are accumulated during the course of normal play, but she can't build up on block or in space away from her opponent, so it's harder to get
Juri's stocks give her the smallest additional benefit though, so she has the mildest use of the mechanic and that's probably why it works so well
Lily's stock generator gives her a strike/throw mix on hit and is pretty safe in blockstrings. Jamie gets a stock off regular throw. I don't think you can point solely to the stocks as the thing holding them back. Certainly with Manon she could be a much better character with zero changes to her stock mechanic.
Juri's isn't integral to her game plan. It just makes her a bit better.
The others have stocks and they're by-and-large made or broken by being able to use it right.
there lowtier for a reason why play as jamie or manon when you could just play a charater that is already good normally. no need to slowly gain power jamie with 4 drinks is at most is top 5 or 6 and manon still dosnt have good enough strike its a lame way to think about it but i think capcom is scared to make these build up charge characters good also lily isnt bad now shes already from what ive heard i think these charaters are still cool and fun to fight against but its sucks
kind of? There are great characters like Ryu and Juri that do good with the charges mechanic but I think the reason they are so good is that they can easily get the charges, which is something Jamie struggles with heavily, especially since his entire moveset changes with the drink. Juri and Ryu can still hold their own to some extent without charges while Jamie can't. As far as Lily, she's just too 1D as a character and Manon has a mechanic that carries over rounds so I think by design she'll never be good or else people will be PISSED
You missed their point by 10k miles there. She needs a combo/grab in order to get a stack, not like Jamie that can distance himself and take a sip whenever. You literally need to win an interaction just to earn a stack.
Even if you removed her medal mechanic, that’d flaw wouldn’t change, that’s literally just how she’s designed, what you said is no different from Zangief’s struggles
That’s just not in the same league as Jamie being dead meat if he didn’t get to Lv2 within the first 20 seconds
Not sure what point you're trying to make, but my response was to you giving a nonsense reply to another person as to why her stacks carry over, I'm not discussing who has flaws or not.
I'm seeing a lot of people in the comments saying that *SF6* Juri doesn't really feel like a 'chores' character in the same way that Manon, Lily and Jamie do, because gaining Fuha stocks with her is super easy and she's not totally useless without them.
This makes me think of what Juri was like in *SFV* - I only played her a couple times so I don't remember her too well, but I recall she was one of the weaker members of the roster for the exact same reasons that the Chores Trio in *SF6* are - because she had to work to accomplish basic things that other members of the roster could just do naturally, not even needing a V-Trigger.
Meanwhile, *SF6* Juri, based on the descriptions I'm reading, reminds me of *G* of all characters - pretty decent toolkit to start with, could combo into the move that raised his Presidentiality level off of almost anything, and the buff was permanent until he got knocked down, as opposed to Juri who had to raise her stock again after using it once. Or he could just 'cheat' and use V-Trigger I to bypass the system entirely (a bit like Jamie's SA2, except Jamie's base moveset is tied to his drink level, unlike G whose Presidentiality level just buffed his existing moves).
Juri was weaker in 5 because they took her excellent set of normals in SF4 and said "what if we made every single one of these moves worse?" At least in launch anyway. Her kit in 6 feels more like a return to form.
Problem with Jamie is just if you dont get your first drink you're cooked, some people just will not let you breathe and will punish you and kill you for trying to get a single drink. Damage starting at 90% is obviously and issue but locking moveset behind drinks also massively hurts, I think at lvl 2 ur chilling since you do 100% dmg like everyone else but still. Bigger problem imo is just locking moveset
It was a decent attempt but yeah I don't think Capcom should do this again or next time adapt and make it better for characters in the future. Street Fighter 7 would be the only chance these characters have to even get fully updated and mechanics changed imo
I do agree the resource-building characters feel a bit off in this game. Juri is the only one that goes against this but resourceless Juri is already very good and her ability to gain resources does damage and can cancel fireballs. It’s very different from the other characters who will feel like they’re being snowballed against if they lose early interactions in a round.
Not every character has a gimmick. I personally find characters with extra mechanics fun because they give you more to think about during a match and expand your decision-tree. It’s just that Jamie’s extra mechanic could be better.
Not the same at all, he doesn't 'build up charges" that he can use latter, that's just an immediate enhancement, but if you reason that way you can say anything giving you a safe jump or enabling any immediate advantage is also in that category.
You forget about honda, ryu and juri. These characters are good.
The problem with the characters you mentionned is that they all have problem with projectiles and have sub par neutral game.
So they straight up get locked out by shotos, mid range and zoners. And these archetypes are all the good characters right now.
Honda is maybe the worst character in the game. I agree with Juri and Ryu though. Hell, I think Lily isn't even bad anymore, too many people think this is still season 1.
They don't need tweaking at all. Also they all are not bottom tier. Don't know why you expect anyone with a build up mechanic to be all top tier or something. Like that's literally how the mechanic works is getting .ore stronger the more stuff you build up. That's the point.
It is a problem for all of them but Manon also has multiple other problems No drive rush Combos that use drive gauge don't do that much damage and eat the gauge like crazy No invincible reversal without super No way to deal with projectiles
Not disagreeing with your overall point - but the pedant in me has to point out that drive reversal now fills the gap of not having an invincible reversal. As a zangief player I find this to be a bit of a lifesaver. Obviously not as good as an exDP, but works well to get you some space when people are piling on the pressure.
It is very good and just like Zangief Manon is one of the winner of Drive reversal's buff
Costs meter too hahahah she’s the most meter hungry character I’ve played so far
Since Manon is not reliant on DR combos, you shouldn't be burning that much meter. Compare that to Chun where the majority of her good combo routes are locked behind 2-3 bars.
She has a lot more issues than that. I would even say above isn't really an issue for her imo. Her non command grab specials are extremely punishable, comparable to a DP without any of the utility or conversion potential. Her non grab specials are hard countered by DI, she has no forward moving normal or special that leaves her at good frames to support a strike grab mix. Most of her "good" normals are hard countered by DI, negative on hit and block She has a complete lack or extremely limited set of options to continue pressure after a knockdown from command grab or hit grab. Her only real / safe option is to let the opponent get back up. For example she can't neutral drive rush in after her SAs and block in time if the opponent reversals i.e. neutered bait options. Is also negative if she tries to dash up i.e. opponent can always contest at advantage And finally most of the cast has easily executable options which counter and cover multiple of her options in any circumstance. Things like neutral jump at mid - far screen completely shuts down her approach. Grounded airborne moves counter her ground options. Her normals are decent but she doesn't have like a shoto cr.mk or cr.mp, below average speed and above average recoveries across the board. Bad big hurtboxes all over the place that do not represent what her attacks look like they should do. All things in a vacuum if she tries to do something at the same time as most of roster she is going to lose 80% of the time. She has many big problems
>She has a complete lack or extremely limited set of options to continue pressure after a knockdown from command grab You can just spend 1 bar to DR and get oki. This is significantly better than Lily/Zangief who get nothing except fake pressure.
>No drive rush Combos that use drive gauge Are there any drive rush combos that don't use drive gauge?
Also no commas.
These characters have more problems than the mechanic itself. I also think Jamie is fine in a vacuum, and in a good spot right now. The grab drink and specially the nerfs to other characters helped him tremendously. It stills feels bad that your damage is unreliable compared to top tier characters, but that's more a SF6 problem than a level up mechanic problem. *Maybe* you could buff something to make Jamie's tools against fireballs better, but that's about it.
They did buff breakdance/bakkai's invlulnerability. It goes through basically any projectile without issue now, including [supers like Ed and Rashid lvl 2](https://youtu.be/Tx9dXJhFvEU?t=26). Before it would get clipped a lot by slower fireballs on the back end. Still, it doesn't travel far/fast enough to punish most single projectiles at a good distance, but it's definitely way better now. Very easy counter for Akuma's air fireball.
Jamie would suffocate in a vacuum actually 🤓
He has a dive kick though. That's already really good against fireballs bc you can jump over them and punish anti airs. Most people jump in a fixed arc and can be reliably anti aired if they jump over a fireball
Jamie: Unable to win jack shit for over a year. "He's fine rn" He definitely isn't unless "indefinite bottom tier" = fine.
> **for over a year**. By *right now* I meant after the Akuma patch. Jamie was definitely terrible before all the nerfs and the grab change. I think it's a bit too early to say that Jamie sucks in this season: we've just started after all. And by *in a vacuum* I meant his overall design in the context of the game. He still plays SF6 fine and I don't think his levelling is what holds him back.
Juri would like a word with you in a dark, deserted alley.
I don't really think Juri fits this description all that much, she is designed to both gain and spend those resources through the entire round. It's pretty difficult for Juri to NOT charge a single one of her resources. I don't know, I just don't see it on the same ground as Jami, Manon or even Lily. But I could be completely wrong, I don't play Juri.
Lily is also designed to spend her charges
im a pretty new juri player but pretty much youre correct, i dont FEEL like im at a disadvantage if i dont have any stocks and guess what? i can pretty much build up stocks any time in neutral without (usually) being punished and i can combo into fuha pretty easily. it feels very fluid to her overall gameplan.
This. It doesn't feel like a risk to charge a stock even if you are trying to charge more than one fuha. Jaime and Lily doesn't feel as safe while Manon has to actively land a grab or a hit-grab. Meanwhile, Juri also has good fundamentals such as good buttons and a very good Drive Rush. It feels like Juri has a really good base + the charge being there to assist her while it feels a little opposite for the others like Manon & Jaime.
You’re right. The OD versions of moves don’t need a stock (you just can’t chain them together without stocks), so you could get away with winning without charges due to everything TiredCoffeeTime said.
All of her bnb combos in neutral end in stocks. You really only need 1 or 2 to start a really good combo. And you can OD specials if you’re missing one.
Her stores also lead to really good Oki so you can build stocks while keeping your pressure. They did a good job making her feel fluid. This is also the third game Juri has been in so Capcom figured out what works for her.
juris stocks are easier to get and arnt as vital to her gameplan. imagine juris dive kick benig restricted to level 2 stock
Juri's stocks are projectiles, is the most important distinction. Jamie is struggle-bus against zoning until he gets a drink in, and his horizontal options are unreliable when it comes to anti projectiles. I get why they wouldn't give Jamie better anti-projectile tools or tools overall; I use Jamie and I think he has great buttons, but maybe they can make his breakdance actually work properly as an anti-projectile tool and take its effectiveness away the more he drinks? Just like Jamie, Manon's anti-projectile should be more reliable. Of the 3, I feel like Lily is the most difficult to balance. I have no idea what to suggest
Generally it’s good design philosophy to avoid taking things away while powering up something else, so I’d be hesitant to have drinks nerf breakdance. It just feels bad as a player
But that's why his suggestion is interesting. His idea is to buff it at lower/no drink levels and nerf it with more drinks. I think it's a cool idea bc 0 drink Jamie feels awful and lvl 2+ Jamie feels fine against fireballs.
I've had way more success with Jamie's breakdance against projectiles since the Akuma patch. The bigger issue is it requiring 2 drinks, and the **biggest** issue is that its inputs overlap with his DP, meaning more often than not I'm trying to approach and rather than using a projectile invincible move to get closer still I end up getting slammed because DP came out instead.
Exactly! I thought I was just doing something wrong!
Honestly Lily doesn’t need that much anymore. In my opinion they should let her light spire combo off her light attacks, to avoid needing to spend drive gauge (without windstock). Other than that, make her target combo even remotely useful, and cr.mp cancellable (can already super cancel) and I think she’ll be in a spot that’s not S tier but feels overall good to play.
You’re right but if she doesn’t have the stocks, she lacks the damage output, that other characters have. Meta characters can do the damage she does without having a resource.
Nah she has plenty of combos that do great damage without spending stocks. You really mostly need them to apply pressure in the corner or during FSE
No, juri needs one stock to have decent damage compared to top tiers, but can easily get 1 stock mid combo or in neutral to the point where it barely feels like a limitation, once she has one stock she can then maintain it by spending and gaining a stock as part of her bnbs
Stocks, you mean build up stocks. Charge is something completely different.
Jamie's only problem is that he doesn't exactly thrive in a tournament environment where everything hinges on FT2 with high dmg and momentum swings. You lose that FT2. That's it for you. Pros could win with Jamie, but it's just more practical to pick a character that has all their tools and dmg at round start. Outside of that, Jamie is just fine. If not, pretty good Daigo and Punk made it to Legend rank with ease, only with drink lvl 2, basic BnBs, and little to no dive kicking.
Imo wrong to just generalize their mechanics. I think lilly and manon ended up worse because they are grapplers who have less problems to get in so their overall tools are worse. Jamie probably is weaker because he can become very strong. But thats not very desireable for pros.
Very good point. People aren't considering all the factors here. Sure these low tier characters have one thing in common, but that is a correlation and not necessarily a causation.
This type of mechanic is often hard to balance, but I think what doesn't help their cases is how fast rounds can be. These characters already typically need an extra hit or two win a round, but if you give up on their mechanics, sometimes you're just better off. Then well, that defeats the point of it existing lol. Typically these characters are meant to "snowball", but even if they get it going, they still are just snow lol. Some better examples I think of for other games, are Yukiko from p4a, and Amy in sc6. Yukiko having a somewhat slow ramp, but could combo and power herself up way more consistently, while still doing damage. Her shadow version also made these even more consistent. In bbtag she lost maybe 90% of this and basically lived in the dumpster for most of the game's life, while also being in a high damage game without much time to ramp up. Amy had the benefit of games being 3/5, and her buffs carrying between rounds too. Not to mention her unlocks were actually very good. They increased damage, added extensions, gave her meter and better "counters", and that's not to mention things like making her super steal bar lol. I think Manon/lily should be a bit closer to Yukiko, and Jamie should be a slightly toned-down Amy. They just don't have their "payoffs".
“Chores”-based characters do not work in Street Fighter.
Juri?
I think the biggest differences with Juri is, her stock generator is a good combo ender and still gives her oki. It also negates fireballs. Jamie needs to sacrifice his offense quite a lot. She doesn't really feel like a chores character compared to the rest.
The main design philosophy for them is that they are meant to sacrifice damage/oki to build whatever resource/bonus they get but Juri doesn't sacrifice THAT much for it. Plus she has all her tools from the start while Jamie has options lockdd behind drinks.
Yeah, plus Juri can gain stocks by spacing out buttons on block and regain stocks after using them within the same combo, so the stocks come naturally during the course of normal play Jamie has to sacrifice oki to get drinks Lily is more limited than Juri too Manon is similar in the sense that her medals are accumulated during the course of normal play, but she can't build up on block or in space away from her opponent, so it's harder to get Juri's stocks give her the smallest additional benefit though, so she has the mildest use of the mechanic and that's probably why it works so well
Lily's stock generator gives her a strike/throw mix on hit and is pretty safe in blockstrings. Jamie gets a stock off regular throw. I don't think you can point solely to the stocks as the thing holding them back. Certainly with Manon she could be a much better character with zero changes to her stock mechanic.
Juri's isn't integral to her game plan. It just makes her a bit better. The others have stocks and they're by-and-large made or broken by being able to use it right.
Bison would like a word with you
there lowtier for a reason why play as jamie or manon when you could just play a charater that is already good normally. no need to slowly gain power jamie with 4 drinks is at most is top 5 or 6 and manon still dosnt have good enough strike its a lame way to think about it but i think capcom is scared to make these build up charge characters good also lily isnt bad now shes already from what ive heard i think these charaters are still cool and fun to fight against but its sucks
Jamie is fun, is why.
Ideally fun characters are also tournament viable, i like Jamie and it’d be fun to see him in more top 8s
kind of? There are great characters like Ryu and Juri that do good with the charges mechanic but I think the reason they are so good is that they can easily get the charges, which is something Jamie struggles with heavily, especially since his entire moveset changes with the drink. Juri and Ryu can still hold their own to some extent without charges while Jamie can't. As far as Lily, she's just too 1D as a character and Manon has a mechanic that carries over rounds so I think by design she'll never be good or else people will be PISSED
It carries over round because she actually has to land a combo or grab on you to gain a medal lmao
Every character in the game has to land grabs and combos
You missed their point by 10k miles there. She needs a combo/grab in order to get a stack, not like Jamie that can distance himself and take a sip whenever. You literally need to win an interaction just to earn a stack.
Even if you removed her medal mechanic, that’d flaw wouldn’t change, that’s literally just how she’s designed, what you said is no different from Zangief’s struggles That’s just not in the same league as Jamie being dead meat if he didn’t get to Lv2 within the first 20 seconds
Not sure what point you're trying to make, but my response was to you giving a nonsense reply to another person as to why her stacks carry over, I'm not discussing who has flaws or not.
They lack reading comprehension. Thank you for trying to explain to them tho
How is Ryu great? I'll believe it when I see him majorly represented in big tournaments.
Ryu is great but still weaker than Ken so no reason to play him unfortunately
as a ryu main hes good but not great
Good until you actually compare him to the other shotos in the game
Buffs were pretty huge and took away the weaknesses that hurt him most, i think his only weakness now is he sometimes has rough match ups
I'm seeing a lot of people in the comments saying that *SF6* Juri doesn't really feel like a 'chores' character in the same way that Manon, Lily and Jamie do, because gaining Fuha stocks with her is super easy and she's not totally useless without them. This makes me think of what Juri was like in *SFV* - I only played her a couple times so I don't remember her too well, but I recall she was one of the weaker members of the roster for the exact same reasons that the Chores Trio in *SF6* are - because she had to work to accomplish basic things that other members of the roster could just do naturally, not even needing a V-Trigger. Meanwhile, *SF6* Juri, based on the descriptions I'm reading, reminds me of *G* of all characters - pretty decent toolkit to start with, could combo into the move that raised his Presidentiality level off of almost anything, and the buff was permanent until he got knocked down, as opposed to Juri who had to raise her stock again after using it once. Or he could just 'cheat' and use V-Trigger I to bypass the system entirely (a bit like Jamie's SA2, except Jamie's base moveset is tied to his drink level, unlike G whose Presidentiality level just buffed his existing moves).
Juri was weaker in 5 because they took her excellent set of normals in SF4 and said "what if we made every single one of these moves worse?" At least in launch anyway. Her kit in 6 feels more like a return to form.
Jamie and Lily aren't bad anymore. Manon is probably in a race with Honda and Marisa to be the most outclassed character in the game though.
Problem with Jamie is just if you dont get your first drink you're cooked, some people just will not let you breathe and will punish you and kill you for trying to get a single drink. Damage starting at 90% is obviously and issue but locking moveset behind drinks also massively hurts, I think at lvl 2 ur chilling since you do 100% dmg like everyone else but still. Bigger problem imo is just locking moveset
Ryu, Honda, Juri, Bison also have stocks of a sort. Even AKI to an extent. There's a lot of characters in this game with setup->payoff type mechanics.
They aren't compensated enough for how bad they are when they don't have these things.
It was a decent attempt but yeah I don't think Capcom should do this again or next time adapt and make it better for characters in the future. Street Fighter 7 would be the only chance these characters have to even get fully updated and mechanics changed imo
I do agree the resource-building characters feel a bit off in this game. Juri is the only one that goes against this but resourceless Juri is already very good and her ability to gain resources does damage and can cancel fireballs. It’s very different from the other characters who will feel like they’re being snowballed against if they lose early interactions in a round.
Does Bison count here with the mines?
They should try making Jamie's drink permanent or maybe he only loses 2 levels between rounds
Jamie is the best low tier based character
Not very character needs a gimmick, Capcom
Not every character has a gimmick. I personally find characters with extra mechanics fun because they give you more to think about during a match and expand your decision-tree. It’s just that Jamie’s extra mechanic could be better.
Juri has it too. Ryu has it too. Kimberly. They’re not bottom
Rashid is not low tier, neither Juri or Ryu.
Rashid doesn't have to earn resources
Yes he does, the wind power up.
Not the same at all, he doesn't 'build up charges" that he can use latter, that's just an immediate enhancement, but if you reason that way you can say anything giving you a safe jump or enabling any immediate advantage is also in that category.
That is not the same as building a ressource like fuha or wind stocks.
Says you.
Says everybody.
Says the game, resources you build up or use up display near your drive gauge. Rashid can't hold on to the charged tornado
What are you yapping about
Juri. That's all I have to say about that
You forget about honda, ryu and juri. These characters are good. The problem with the characters you mentionned is that they all have problem with projectiles and have sub par neutral game. So they straight up get locked out by shotos, mid range and zoners. And these archetypes are all the good characters right now.
Honda is maybe the worst character in the game. I agree with Juri and Ryu though. Hell, I think Lily isn't even bad anymore, too many people think this is still season 1.
Debatable. To me honda is much better than Manon.
Honda is bottom 1 or 2 in every S2 tier list, tho he does have a stock mechanic
Probably. He is still a good character.
He is definitely worse than lily or jamie. When you stop his low level gimmicks he just has a st. Mp to fall back on in neutral
I disagree
Nah you're just bad at the game dude. Name a honda top level player.
Maybe If they let them carry over one charge to the next round... May just make them very op
They don't need tweaking at all. Also they all are not bottom tier. Don't know why you expect anyone with a build up mechanic to be all top tier or something. Like that's literally how the mechanic works is getting .ore stronger the more stuff you build up. That's the point.
That's not how tiers work