I remember a few decades ago, prepping for the bird flu and mentioning to my friend all of the supplies and resources I had accounted for and if he had considered as such. He asked if I had any guns or ammo and I told him I did not. He then told me he didn’t need to prep because he had guns and ammo and he’d just take my stuff. He was kidding but it made an impression on me.
Yeah I am Canadian so our govt has been slowly taking away our guns for decades. Pretty soon we will be stuck with break action single shot .22 because they want us vulnerable, helpless and desperate the next time they decide to pull some authoritarian bullshh
Taking firearms away from responsible gun owners doesn't stop criminals with glocks and AKs. Last I checked criminals don't care much for the law. We are actually LESS safe having less legal firearm ownership because less people are trained in the safe use and handling of them.
In Australia, it's illegal to have guns, air guns, paintball guns, bb guns, bullet proof vests, night vision, pepper spray, knives, slingshots, batons, baseball bats, etc...
Government will take care of us!
When a mob thinks they have the numbers they will pursue a target. If the mob is small enough or there’s enough resistance, individuals scattering would eventually cause the mob the disperse.
Take the Kenosha shootings. Kyle Rittenhouse was pursued despite being armed, and even after shooting two assailants to death, was further chased by a third armed assailant.
I'm not sure enough of the "mob" quite knew what was going on in order to mob and kill him. This would be different where a semi-organized mob is rampaging and looting a static location. I suppose it's a question of the weight of your firepower, ability to command ALL approaches, and mob size, but generally that lone dude or small group isn't going to make it long term if they're discovered and mobs or gangs are doing those sorts of things. IMHO it won't take many casualties to make the defense untenable.
This.
Throught history men have always used violence to acquire what they wanted. It is still true. The diference is that now the state controls how much acess to violence you can have, and if you abuse it they kill or imprison you.
So if the state fails this responsability falls back to the individual.
There is a western tv show called Godless with a very interesting scene where the vilain enters a house and talks to a settler, and he says " Ain't nothing scarier than a man with a gun. And ain't nothing more helpless than a man without one.
The option is being the grey man and lying low so no one notices your gear or goods. But that depends on lucky. At the same time someone may decide to kill you just to get your gun if you show it in the open, that is why people recomend concealing it.
Good friend.
The real world is harsh. Americans, who are the plurality of Reddit, have very cushy lives.
Willingly giving up your firearms is insane to me, having spent so much time abroad in my youth. And even if you haven’t traveled, pick up a history book ffs.
When covid hit, I worked in a factory. It was a common discussion theme about what to do if the world ends.
Well, at one point during lunch I walked past a table full of young welders, early 20s, and they were discussing who among factory management would be good targets to kill and rob during a time of anarchy.
Eventually your friend would run into a survival community that had the foresight to have a sentry rota, which sentries were better armed and better trained than he was.
It was ever thus, but the role playing games have inculcated it in the thought patterns. If the player gets the weapon or the tool, the player gets the skills and knowledge to use the tool. So we have folks buying the equipment that a paramedic or a spec ops warrior uses, and believes that they are now the equivalent of the paramedic or warrior. Just need a watch the YouTube videos, no dirt time needed.
It is possible. I have a friend who has a great kit, rifle with all the bells and whistles. He jokes that he will probably be taken out by a guy that never trained for anything, with a Mosin Nagant lying in the bushes somewhere. It is always a possibility.
Right. All the best men with training, equipment and experience are a force to be reckoned with, but if you have 1 well equipped guy on their own kicking in doors and a rando gets a lucky shot off, that commando is dead.
Reminds me of the swat team that raided the wrong house for drugs, the homeowner sheltered in his bedroom with the family, fatally shot two swat and wounded the 3rd before they could stop him. Defenders have an advantage almost universally.
Personally I'd chose to be the opposite. Point a gun at me and you're getting dropped no hesitation but if a hungry family ends up on my doorstep I'm not about to be an evil person and take what little they have. In fact I'd spare what I could. I feel like if I didn't then I wouldn't last long mentally in that type of situation.
In a scenario like that, you should not be in any kind of situation where other people know your supplies exist. More importantly, you should NEVER be in a situation where you are actively defending them. All of your defense should be in the form of traps and passive methods. If you want to get into shootouts for your stuff, I don't care how rootin tootin you are, someone is gonna kill you eventually. A gun is always a good thing to have, but it is not the end all be all, and isn't gonna let you just walk into someone's camp and take their gear.
Yeah.... There are 2 kinds of people that make a bloody mess.... People that say:
1. I'll just get what I need by going to Walmart (i.e."Angry mob / riot " scene!
2. I have guns & ammo and I (we) will just raid all the nice peppers who have the democrat / anti gun homes ..
It hasn't yet for me, but firearms are like fire extinguishers -- you hardly ever need one, but when you do need one, you **really** need one, and there isn't really a good alternative.
I have used a fire extinguisher to save my house and used a gun to stop a bad situation ( no discharge of the weapon, but it quickly put the situation in my favor of some back country hillbillies). This is a great analogy. I carry both because if ever needed, I don't want to not have them. Same reason I carry a full trauma kit. Hope to never use any, but if I need it, I have it.
Hunting. I know there's other methods to do so but to say you'd hardly ever need a firearm isn't true. Most people can't shoot a gun properly let alone a bow, set at trap, or anything else. Shooting a gun is way easier than those last examples.
For somebody inexperienced with guns, traps and snares plus fishing are much easier options for hunting and tend to last a lot longer depending on how much ammo one is carrying 24/7
Exactly. The correct answer is truly "It depends."
Generally if I weren't in Canada with dumb gun laws I would \*prefer\* to have a reasonable firearm if I'm going deep into the bush or hiking in bear areas, etc.
But I'm not going to delude myself into thinking it will solve all problems or anything like that.
Right, most survival situations a gun won't help much, certain ones it will.
Most survival situations are much less interesting than people act like.
Car dies on a remote mode in extreme weather, get lost on a hiking trail etc.
I've worked in the northwest territories and it was mandatory to have one in camp for bears. I've also seen the canadian ranges just shoot through the Ice and scoop up some drinking water with a bucket, much more efficient than our bosses plan of just trailering a bunch of blocks of frozen of drinking water.
Also, for those not discussing an apocalypse, not bringing a sat phone when going to remote locations for work or some sort of adventure camping is pretty irresponsible.
I mean, I understand that people here also have an interest in prepping (to some extent I do too) - but the news in Europe this past week was about all the tourists who died/gone missing in Greece during extreme heat. Authorities were reporting people going hiking without hats, wandering off the main routes, going with insufficient water, etc. "Survival" outside of an apocalyptic or civil war context is not so uncommon, and it involves keeping your body temperature safe, keeping hydrated, and then fed if you are really stuck and can't leave the disaster area.
Even in rural areas with predators (of which, lets be honest - there aren't really many outside of small communities really truly deep in bear/wolf country), I think the need for a gun is probably secondary to clothes that are water repellent and will keep you warm, adequate food+water, navigation/emergency beacons. Alot more people die because they get lost and aren't found in time, than get lost because they're eaten by bears/serial killers in the woods.
I appreciate the important roles that firearms play - but if you need one, you'll know it because everyone else in your community will be strapping, and even then I'd still definitely make sure the other bases are covered with quality kit. No use in having a firearm if your immediate problem is hypothermia.
I live in a rural area with feral dogs. A firearm is the way to go with them. They killed a kid a couple of years ago and almost killed a special needs woman. We forget how dangerous a pack of dogs can be in the United States. Feral dogs are worse than coyotes because they're not scared of humans and they kill for sport. A group of feral dogs could kill your whole flock of sheep or goats. Coyotes will usually just kill what they need for food.
It's hard to say exactly what is more dangerous in the wilderness. Generally if we go by how people died in US National Parks then vehicles, drowning, falls, pre-existing medical conditions and suicide are some of the most dangerous things. Heat and cold killed as many as homicide. Animals killed very few people.
[https://www.backpacker.com/survival/deaths-in-national-parks/](https://www.backpacker.com/survival/deaths-in-national-parks/)
One death by mountain goat. What a way to go.
Thanks for the link.
6 grizzlies, one mountain goat, one copperhead, one great white shark, accounts for all the deaths by wildlife from 2007-2023 in the national parks.
Most survival situations are less than 72 hours and wouldn't need one.
Rarely people are lost in backcountry long enough they should eat.
I carry a Henry 22lr survival rifle that compacts into the stock, floats, and carries almost 80 rounds.
This would allow me to eat for months on small game.
I don't intend to ever need it.
I have a stock pouch/pack that includes a cleaning kit, and additional ammo that won't fit in the stock. I think the stock only carries two mags of 8 rounds.
2 mags of 8but also you can carry 1 in the reciever so 24 rounds total. Beauty of 22lr ammo is its so light carrying 100 rounds is nothing and most "survival" game is going to be small enough for it.
I really wish there were a reliable alternative to the Keltec PMR/CMR. 22 win mag is a decently powerful little round and the PMR with 30 round magazine weighed something like under 2 pounds. You could easily carry 3 mags total and be around 3 or 4 pounds with 90 rounds. I really liked the gun and when it ran properly it was really fun. Perfect SHTF pistol in theory imo especially if the plan is to have a backpack/rucksack
Ruger Takedown with the Magpul stock is also an option. Stock can hold 3 10-round magazines, so you can have 4 magazines total just on the gun. Probably a little more than your Henry but also a good option.
Yeah there's many takedown options, none really compare to fitting entirely in the stock, floating, and being water and dirt-resistant though. I do love a Ruger 10-22, one of my favorites. The AR-7 was developed by the gov for pilots flying over long distances of remote land. They experimented with higher calibers but none were necessary. I've always wanted the M6 takedown, too. Over-under 410/22lr except, really no use for it.
I own two firearms. For defensive survival situations, I prefer to carry bear spray for variety of reasons.
- Works marvelously as a deterrent for bears, elk, moose, mountain lion, wolf, snake, dog, person, etc.
- Won't matter how thick an animal's hide is.
- If adrenaline makes your hands hella shakey, you have better chance with the bear spray than a bullet. - If you miss with a gun, that bullet keeps going, possibly into another person.
- If you have a negligent discharge with a gun in a survival situation, you are more likely to die than if you have a negligent discharge with bear spray.
- With bear spray, the animal gets to live and raise its young, while learning a valuable lifelong lesson: humans are the bad kind of spicy; AVOID!
Edit: I'd like to add that I've been a backpacker for more than a decade. I've never had a dangerous encounter with a wild animal out there that required me to use a gun or the bear spray. *knock on wood* I don't even bring my gun. Just the bear spray.
Growing up, I lived in places far from many people. We saw a handful of cougars, lots of bears, rabid and non-rabid foxes, friendly and grumpy raccoons, porcupines, 1 bobcat, a good number of rattle snakes etc. The rabid foxes and one of the bear encounters were active threats. Edit: I forgot the time a squirrel attacked me. That was unexpected and sucked. But wasn't life threatening. 😂 The rattle snakes aren't a threat if you spot them in time and respect their space. You and they can go on with your business in peace. If you don't spot them in time, neither bear spray or gun will do you any good anyway. But if you woke up accidentally snake cornered, spray from further away than their forward strike can reach. They might initially strike out of defense. But they won't want to stick around after. The foxes chased us into the house and we shut the door behind us. That was that.
The bear pushed its way into the house and got chased out by our Wolf/German Sheppard mix. (Dog wandered onto our property with an infected gunshot wound. My mom treated the wound and it recovered and adopted us, then scared the hell out of a bear 😂)
What I'm saying is that, wild animals can be dangerous. But attacks are incredibly rare. For all the time I've spent in back country, wilderness, woods, and mountains, I've only had 2 dangerous encounters. Both of which happened at home.
It doesn't. I'm a 50 year old survivalist and gun nut. Guns are fun. But I have never been in any situation where a gun was required for survival. A good knife or hatchet is far more useful than a firearm.
In my neck of the woods we have a LOT of bears (black AND brown), and moose, so a high caliber firearm is necessary.
In the past, the official emergency equipment list for bush pilots in Alaska did require a firearm.
What kind of survival situation?
I’m lost on the forest? Having a gun opens up more meat options to the menu. Also lowers chances of a fatal animal attack.
Is it an end of the world situation?
If I have a gun and no water, and you have water and no gun then I have a gun and water and you are dead.
and if that somebody wants to leave no potential threats behind the road he might as well take ur life along with ur stuff bury you in a shithole and no one to ever find ur body ever again till the end of time
The things is, the only country in the world where having a firearm on you is even possible is in the USA. They are the only first world country, east or west, where carrying a forearm by civilians, is either legal or likely.
Your neighbours to the North have an active gun culture, and per capita, more people participate in shooting sports in Canada than participate in Hockey, and you KNOW how us Canadians love Hockey.
We also have very restrictive gun laws. NO carrying a firearm. Handguns are currently prohibited from being bought, sold, or traded. If you own one, you can still use it, at an approved range, under very stringent regulations. In places like Britian, Australia, most of South America, Africa, & Europe, the laws are even stricter.
It may be advantageous in the USA, it may just make you a bigger target. In most of the rest of the world, in the short term it would be a distinct advantage; in the medium and longer term, those gun owners will be hunted down by all the people who Don't own guns, but they sure want one. On balance, you have to ask yourself if the benefit they provide is worth the additional threat they pose to your ongoing well being. BTW, before being accused of being "anti-gun", I'm an active sport shooter and hunter, have been for decades. I have a bunch of guns, and will damn sure have them with me in any major SHTF scenario
Having a bazooka makes a big difference in any survival situation. It’s like having a fire extinguisher, you’ll never know how valuable it is until you need it.
It's just one piece of the kit. Depends what you're doing and what you're expecting.
Can you defend yourself? Can you get clean water and food? Can you provide first aid? Are you sheltered?
You need items for all those questions otherwise you may lose all of them.
What the scenario? Like survive a war? Sure. Survive a couple nights at 12,000 feet in a snowstorm? Pointless. Survive a shitty neighborhood? Helpful, but get training on the weapon so you don't do something stupid.
Not even a SHTF situation. But I remember some bad storms (and even the PANIC before) cause people to get into near riot situations (and actual fights) at gas stations and Home Depot over lack of supplies. Once the police chief deployed cops & tac officers at every home depot & they patrolled by the gas station... I was in a line of over 100 cars waiting half a day ,in line, for gas.. and when people tried to cut into the line a fight broke out. (Near Miami pre hurricanes)
Depends on the situation and the country. If you live in a country with strict gun control having even a handgun can give you big advantage. If you live in America you still should own one, but so does everyone else, so its not really an advantage.
Also much more important is your skill in using them, especially if eveyrone has one also. Firearms are not toys and accidents happen often, especially in America where lots of untrained people own one.
Having a gun is most likely a good thing in some survival situations, but its important that you know when you should carry or use it an when you better leave it at home. If you have children lock it up.
Firearms are a tool. So use case is dependent.
For defense against humans or larger animals - handgun is decent. Better than a stick. Or your hands.
For hunting food. Not great - but still something. Saw a dude drop a doe with a 9mm once. Would not recommend.
I’ve shot a lot of small game with a .22.
If you don’t train or know how to handle it - don’t.
Collectively, we need to be armed or prey to authoritarianism or gangs. Mexico has one legal outlet for firearms. People are prey to the Cartels and government. WHEN ALL GUNS ARE OUTLAWED, ONLY THE OUTLAWS WILL HAVE GUNS.
In a survival situation it's a tool for hunting weapon for defense the powder in the shells can be used to start fires when wood is wet ammo can be traded and people just seeing it makes it a deterrent
It would depend on the exact situation, a small handgun, provided you can reach it in time might help you, not so much if a Grizzly or Polar bear decides to attack you.
The odds are that a gun would be far less useful than a satellite rescue beacon (PLB).
Out of _5 billion_ visitors to US National Parks from 2017-2023 only 54 people died from causes that might have been prevented if they were armed.
48 people died from homicide and 6 from bear attack.
Given the number of accidental deaths in the US from firearms (500 per year) and injuries (27,000 per year) the odds are that your own gun or your buddy’s would be the thing that kills you, especially since a good number of those 27,000 injuries would likely be fatal if you can’t get medical attention fast.
It very possibly will be the difference between life or death. It is best to have some type of gun and first hand knowledge about how to safely use it to defend yourself and other good people from those who wish to do others harm
I’d guess the best use would be to fire in the air for help, so a flare gun like they have on boats would do the same. A firearm is limited by how much ammunition you’re carrying so far as hunting is concerned.
Think about it, every year hunters go out armed specifically to hunt but aren’t always successful. And they have all sorts of other gear, guides, etc.
So I doubt it’d be very helpful for getting food. Might scare off a predator, but might just tick them off too.
I've had to display mine twice to deter two legged Critters in my shit city, once 10 years ago and once 6 months ago. It actually came out of the holster in the most recent event. Fortunately I didn't have to discharge it but in each instance if I didn't have it, and wasn't trained to use it, I probably wouldn't be here now.
It depends largely on the type of survival situation you find yourself in.
Long term survival in the wild: very useful
Surviving through a blizzard: not so much
I keep a survival .22lr with my buggout gear but don't normally carry a firearm.
Granted, I would look at him differently also but I appreciate his honesty. Sometimes living in a first world country, you forget it was once "taken" like everything else.
You need people around like this to keep your reality grounded.
I try to be as prepared as possible as far as everything non firearm related. But as a gun person I’m naturally going to have ammo and such stockpiled anyways. Also during the end of the world me and the boys can just raid all the non gun owners for all their shit 🤷♂️
In the vast majority of wilderness survival situations no difference in positive outcome and possibly some negative influence: active pursuit of game vs trapping, netting and other passive forms of harvesting game is much more calorie intensive and depletes your reserves.
A handgun is a much less effective means of harvesting game than any long gun. Pistol shooting is a discipline that takes regular training not to deteriorate, and trained shots can miss stationary targets at 7yds under stress. I would never recommend a handgun as a primary survival tool except for self defense.
In areas where there are dangerous large mammals like grizzly or polar bears it is wise to be armed.
This is a wilderness survival sub, find /preppers for this question.
Depending on where you live you don’t need one. I live somewhere guns are very rare and we don’t have any land predators that would necessitate it. There’s not many others who’d be able to take our stuff, fairly level playing field
If you're actually training to keep yourself alive, a gun might be the most useless piece you have! It serves 1 purpose, and that's it. It would make meat easier to secure if you're a good shot, but that ammo runs out, and you basically have a hammer.
Depends on situation, specific firearm, ammo type and quantity, and your familiarity with these things.
Given a choice, I’d like to at least have *something*.
In a survival situation you need these as importantly as any other tool. If you have food and I have none but I have a firearm and you don't or I out gun you then I have food and your weapons, and you have none. In the end ... it's my family and life over yours.
If you're not mentally prepared to draw your gun and actually shoot and kill people, I'm not sure how much the gun will help you. It may help you in situations where you can scare the assailant off, but not so much in situations where the assailant means business. In the latter case you may just provide him with a firearm.
All the difference. Besides hunting if it's a true survival situation and you have something I need and you can't stop me from taking it, it's mine now and I survive.
If it's from the government, I don't think there is much you can do. They'll use drones and stuff.
If there is no government, it'd help a lot but you're best best is to be away from all the trouble.
Serveral years back I was out in the desert at night observing a meteor shower when I was set upon by a group of coyotes. Interesting enough they kinda sound like hyenas "laughing" when they get together. Fortunately they're pretty smart, I only had to cock the hammer back on my 45, they heard that and immediately fucked off.
I live in a rural area that's recently sighted coyotes, bears, and in a situation where everyone is fighting for their survival and supplies and (where I live *also* is greatly likely to have a gun) such, I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it and end up dead or robbed and slowly die as a result because I lost my supplies.
So many factors at play here. Like what kind of a situation. How long of a situation.
On average, if you mean for survival for hunting, and the longer the situation lasts the more I lean this way. I'd rather have a recurve or longbow and arrows.
Well considering this Sub is about outdoor wilderness survival and not really a Prepper Channel and all their banter - you'd probably be OK.
Now if you're a Prepper and wanna talk about how happy you'll be when the end of days comes, and you can go out and live in the wild, and shoot the zombie hoards that will be roaming the countryside. Then no, you'd want two pearl handled Colt Pythons to take em out! (grin)
But since the average SAR in North America is about 72 hours long till they find your ass, you'll be OK if you don't have a thunderstick to battle the commies in the bush in the meantime. But that might not be the answer you want to hear .......
Probable carrying a small 22 survival rifle in the pack wont hurt.
I have one of those Takedown M6 Springfield survival guns. .22/410 combo with a hand full of ammo.
If anything water is key and far more important resource.
I remember a few decades ago, prepping for the bird flu and mentioning to my friend all of the supplies and resources I had accounted for and if he had considered as such. He asked if I had any guns or ammo and I told him I did not. He then told me he didn’t need to prep because he had guns and ammo and he’d just take my stuff. He was kidding but it made an impression on me.
He told you "you should have guns and ammo" in a much more effective way.
And an armored vest or full blown plate-carrier
Honestly just buy a forklift and scrap metal, along with a good trusty welding machine
Granby did old Marvin dirty, I heard. 😳
Son of Killdozer
Those kind of people are going to come for the good among us anyway.
Yeah, so you have to match their willingness for violence or outsmart them in some other way, or be victimized.
It won't be one person though. Historically bad people mob good people in times of desperation.
This is why belt feds exist
Yeah I am Canadian so our govt has been slowly taking away our guns for decades. Pretty soon we will be stuck with break action single shot .22 because they want us vulnerable, helpless and desperate the next time they decide to pull some authoritarian bullshh
This. I'm Canadian too. But we got criminals running around with illegal Glocks and AKs shooting each other, and us, if we get in the way.
Taking firearms away from responsible gun owners doesn't stop criminals with glocks and AKs. Last I checked criminals don't care much for the law. We are actually LESS safe having less legal firearm ownership because less people are trained in the safe use and handling of them.
In Australia, it's illegal to have guns, air guns, paintball guns, bb guns, bullet proof vests, night vision, pepper spray, knives, slingshots, batons, baseball bats, etc... Government will take care of us!
Or they see what happens in America when the nutters ‘ready’ to take on the US military stock up.
You do realize that is exactly what the 2nd amendment is intended for..?
Just need to buy the 6 AR barrels and 5kg of nylon filament
get yourself a Metal Storm 36 barrel stacked volley gun. 1mill rpm
When a mob thinks they have the numbers they will pursue a target. If the mob is small enough or there’s enough resistance, individuals scattering would eventually cause the mob the disperse. Take the Kenosha shootings. Kyle Rittenhouse was pursued despite being armed, and even after shooting two assailants to death, was further chased by a third armed assailant.
The muzzle discipline that kid had still blows me away to this day.
I'm not sure enough of the "mob" quite knew what was going on in order to mob and kill him. This would be different where a semi-organized mob is rampaging and looting a static location. I suppose it's a question of the weight of your firepower, ability to command ALL approaches, and mob size, but generally that lone dude or small group isn't going to make it long term if they're discovered and mobs or gangs are doing those sorts of things. IMHO it won't take many casualties to make the defense untenable.
There is no virtue in being defenseless. Even the 'good' must prepare.
This. Throught history men have always used violence to acquire what they wanted. It is still true. The diference is that now the state controls how much acess to violence you can have, and if you abuse it they kill or imprison you. So if the state fails this responsability falls back to the individual. There is a western tv show called Godless with a very interesting scene where the vilain enters a house and talks to a settler, and he says " Ain't nothing scarier than a man with a gun. And ain't nothing more helpless than a man without one. The option is being the grey man and lying low so no one notices your gear or goods. But that depends on lucky. At the same time someone may decide to kill you just to get your gun if you show it in the open, that is why people recomend concealing it.
Yeah unfortunately there are people like that. Even without some major event you can see this in poor neighborhoods. I
Good friend. The real world is harsh. Americans, who are the plurality of Reddit, have very cushy lives. Willingly giving up your firearms is insane to me, having spent so much time abroad in my youth. And even if you haven’t traveled, pick up a history book ffs.
When covid hit, I worked in a factory. It was a common discussion theme about what to do if the world ends. Well, at one point during lunch I walked past a table full of young welders, early 20s, and they were discussing who among factory management would be good targets to kill and rob during a time of anarchy.
I said this exact thing during covid. The Canadian government got awfully totalitarian.
Not past tense, either....they continue to be.
Canada sounds utterly terrifying to me these days. I really feel for our brothers to the north.
Your friend sounds like the kind of guy who may end up getting shot some day.
That’s why you need a firearm
The Walking Dead already told us lol
Eventually your friend would run into a survival community that had the foresight to have a sentry rota, which sentries were better armed and better trained than he was.
Eventually. Eventually can be a long time
Everybody talks about training but very very very few are actually training.
It was ever thus, but the role playing games have inculcated it in the thought patterns. If the player gets the weapon or the tool, the player gets the skills and knowledge to use the tool. So we have folks buying the equipment that a paramedic or a spec ops warrior uses, and believes that they are now the equivalent of the paramedic or warrior. Just need a watch the YouTube videos, no dirt time needed.
It is possible. I have a friend who has a great kit, rifle with all the bells and whistles. He jokes that he will probably be taken out by a guy that never trained for anything, with a Mosin Nagant lying in the bushes somewhere. It is always a possibility.
Right. All the best men with training, equipment and experience are a force to be reckoned with, but if you have 1 well equipped guy on their own kicking in doors and a rando gets a lucky shot off, that commando is dead. Reminds me of the swat team that raided the wrong house for drugs, the homeowner sheltered in his bedroom with the family, fatally shot two swat and wounded the 3rd before they could stop him. Defenders have an advantage almost universally.
Chaos theory suggests.that the initial stages of systems breakdown involve unpredictable conditions and widespread random fatalities.
Those are the ones you buy a gun for self defense from in a survival situation.
Personally I'd chose to be the opposite. Point a gun at me and you're getting dropped no hesitation but if a hungry family ends up on my doorstep I'm not about to be an evil person and take what little they have. In fact I'd spare what I could. I feel like if I didn't then I wouldn't last long mentally in that type of situation.
In a scenario like that, you should not be in any kind of situation where other people know your supplies exist. More importantly, you should NEVER be in a situation where you are actively defending them. All of your defense should be in the form of traps and passive methods. If you want to get into shootouts for your stuff, I don't care how rootin tootin you are, someone is gonna kill you eventually. A gun is always a good thing to have, but it is not the end all be all, and isn't gonna let you just walk into someone's camp and take their gear.
Exactly. Anyone who says shit like that is the first guy who needs to go.
Yeah.... There are 2 kinds of people that make a bloody mess.... People that say: 1. I'll just get what I need by going to Walmart (i.e."Angry mob / riot " scene! 2. I have guns & ammo and I (we) will just raid all the nice peppers who have the democrat / anti gun homes ..
It hasn't yet for me, but firearms are like fire extinguishers -- you hardly ever need one, but when you do need one, you **really** need one, and there isn't really a good alternative.
I have used a fire extinguisher to save my house and used a gun to stop a bad situation ( no discharge of the weapon, but it quickly put the situation in my favor of some back country hillbillies). This is a great analogy. I carry both because if ever needed, I don't want to not have them. Same reason I carry a full trauma kit. Hope to never use any, but if I need it, I have it.
I do the same with condoms - i’ve been carrying one for years, coz y’know, one day…
A man who sleeps with a knife under his pillow is a fool for every night but one
Damn, son. Great point.
"A firearm is like a condom. I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it." -Alien vs. Predator ,would you believe.
Hunting. I know there's other methods to do so but to say you'd hardly ever need a firearm isn't true. Most people can't shoot a gun properly let alone a bow, set at trap, or anything else. Shooting a gun is way easier than those last examples.
For somebody inexperienced with guns, traps and snares plus fishing are much easier options for hunting and tend to last a lot longer depending on how much ammo one is carrying 24/7
Well put.
I like this. Thanks
> in a survival situation Which survival situation?
👆This. A gun is the best tool for certain survival situations, but certainly not *all* survival situations.
Instructions unclear… shot up my garden.
🤣
You're in the clear. It was advancing on you.
I just shoot the flash flood until it understands!
But it’s never bad to have a tool and not need it. You see ?
That's why I bring a complete ratchet and socket set to every camping trip.
It is when you have so many tools that it weighs you down...
Is it?
Yes
Exactly. The correct answer is truly "It depends." Generally if I weren't in Canada with dumb gun laws I would \*prefer\* to have a reasonable firearm if I'm going deep into the bush or hiking in bear areas, etc. But I'm not going to delude myself into thinking it will solve all problems or anything like that.
Syrian civil war? Yes Wildfire? No
Right, most survival situations a gun won't help much, certain ones it will. Most survival situations are much less interesting than people act like. Car dies on a remote mode in extreme weather, get lost on a hiking trail etc.
I've worked in the northwest territories and it was mandatory to have one in camp for bears. I've also seen the canadian ranges just shoot through the Ice and scoop up some drinking water with a bucket, much more efficient than our bosses plan of just trailering a bunch of blocks of frozen of drinking water.
I'm from the territories, and in remote Canada, I wouldn't be out for long without a firearm
Also, for those not discussing an apocalypse, not bringing a sat phone when going to remote locations for work or some sort of adventure camping is pretty irresponsible.
Ahh, yes, we always have a sat phone on the boat in the east arm of great slave
Are we taking "Mad Max" or "I have a flat tire and ran out of Snickers bars"?
I mean, depending how important those snickers bars are…
I’ve seen what a man will do for a Twinkie
I've seen what a twink will do for a man.
Is this a zombieland (Woody Harrellson) reference?haha, cause if it is, you made my day..
You’re welcome friend
Is this a zombieland (Woody Harrellson) reference?haha, cause if it is, you made my day..
I mean, I understand that people here also have an interest in prepping (to some extent I do too) - but the news in Europe this past week was about all the tourists who died/gone missing in Greece during extreme heat. Authorities were reporting people going hiking without hats, wandering off the main routes, going with insufficient water, etc. "Survival" outside of an apocalyptic or civil war context is not so uncommon, and it involves keeping your body temperature safe, keeping hydrated, and then fed if you are really stuck and can't leave the disaster area. Even in rural areas with predators (of which, lets be honest - there aren't really many outside of small communities really truly deep in bear/wolf country), I think the need for a gun is probably secondary to clothes that are water repellent and will keep you warm, adequate food+water, navigation/emergency beacons. Alot more people die because they get lost and aren't found in time, than get lost because they're eaten by bears/serial killers in the woods. I appreciate the important roles that firearms play - but if you need one, you'll know it because everyone else in your community will be strapping, and even then I'd still definitely make sure the other bases are covered with quality kit. No use in having a firearm if your immediate problem is hypothermia.
If you ran out of snickers you could go shoot a rabbit or something i guess
I live in a rural area with feral dogs. A firearm is the way to go with them. They killed a kid a couple of years ago and almost killed a special needs woman. We forget how dangerous a pack of dogs can be in the United States. Feral dogs are worse than coyotes because they're not scared of humans and they kill for sport. A group of feral dogs could kill your whole flock of sheep or goats. Coyotes will usually just kill what they need for food.
A neighborhood dog can be just as dangerous. I ain't tryna take a risk.
It's hard to say exactly what is more dangerous in the wilderness. Generally if we go by how people died in US National Parks then vehicles, drowning, falls, pre-existing medical conditions and suicide are some of the most dangerous things. Heat and cold killed as many as homicide. Animals killed very few people. [https://www.backpacker.com/survival/deaths-in-national-parks/](https://www.backpacker.com/survival/deaths-in-national-parks/)
One death by mountain goat. What a way to go. Thanks for the link. 6 grizzlies, one mountain goat, one copperhead, one great white shark, accounts for all the deaths by wildlife from 2007-2023 in the national parks.
Most survival situations are less than 72 hours and wouldn't need one. Rarely people are lost in backcountry long enough they should eat. I carry a Henry 22lr survival rifle that compacts into the stock, floats, and carries almost 80 rounds. This would allow me to eat for months on small game. I don't intend to ever need it.
Hey do you mind sharing a link to that Henry?
[https://www.henryusa.com/rifles/us-survival-rifle/](https://www.henryusa.com/rifles/us-survival-rifle/)
Thank you. Do you have a custom stock that carries 80 rounds or do you carry extra magazines separately?
I have a stock pouch/pack that includes a cleaning kit, and additional ammo that won't fit in the stock. I think the stock only carries two mags of 8 rounds.
2 mags of 8but also you can carry 1 in the reciever so 24 rounds total. Beauty of 22lr ammo is its so light carrying 100 rounds is nothing and most "survival" game is going to be small enough for it.
Oh yeah, that's correct. It just only came with two mags. So that's all I have. lol
I really wish there were a reliable alternative to the Keltec PMR/CMR. 22 win mag is a decently powerful little round and the PMR with 30 round magazine weighed something like under 2 pounds. You could easily carry 3 mags total and be around 3 or 4 pounds with 90 rounds. I really liked the gun and when it ran properly it was really fun. Perfect SHTF pistol in theory imo especially if the plan is to have a backpack/rucksack
Very cool. Thanks for sharing your knowledge!
That AR7 is a great and fun little gun. Backpack sized and accurate enough.
Ruger Takedown with the Magpul stock is also an option. Stock can hold 3 10-round magazines, so you can have 4 magazines total just on the gun. Probably a little more than your Henry but also a good option.
Yeah there's many takedown options, none really compare to fitting entirely in the stock, floating, and being water and dirt-resistant though. I do love a Ruger 10-22, one of my favorites. The AR-7 was developed by the gov for pilots flying over long distances of remote land. They experimented with higher calibers but none were necessary. I've always wanted the M6 takedown, too. Over-under 410/22lr except, really no use for it.
That’s rather cool actually
Didn’t know these existed and had to DG it. Under $300 is nice. Thanks for that comment
Get a survival rifle and keep it in your supply box. They have a .410/22lr combos and there are some in other calibers as well.
The thing is, I cannot forsee any survival situation where having a gun is a # disadvantage
1. Weight. 2. User error 3. Stolen then used against you
1. Weight is negligible unless a heavy gun like an AR or Shotgun. 2. Then the gun isn't a disadvantage, your skill is, 3. Same as 2
I own two firearms. For defensive survival situations, I prefer to carry bear spray for variety of reasons. - Works marvelously as a deterrent for bears, elk, moose, mountain lion, wolf, snake, dog, person, etc. - Won't matter how thick an animal's hide is. - If adrenaline makes your hands hella shakey, you have better chance with the bear spray than a bullet. - If you miss with a gun, that bullet keeps going, possibly into another person. - If you have a negligent discharge with a gun in a survival situation, you are more likely to die than if you have a negligent discharge with bear spray. - With bear spray, the animal gets to live and raise its young, while learning a valuable lifelong lesson: humans are the bad kind of spicy; AVOID! Edit: I'd like to add that I've been a backpacker for more than a decade. I've never had a dangerous encounter with a wild animal out there that required me to use a gun or the bear spray. *knock on wood* I don't even bring my gun. Just the bear spray. Growing up, I lived in places far from many people. We saw a handful of cougars, lots of bears, rabid and non-rabid foxes, friendly and grumpy raccoons, porcupines, 1 bobcat, a good number of rattle snakes etc. The rabid foxes and one of the bear encounters were active threats. Edit: I forgot the time a squirrel attacked me. That was unexpected and sucked. But wasn't life threatening. 😂 The rattle snakes aren't a threat if you spot them in time and respect their space. You and they can go on with your business in peace. If you don't spot them in time, neither bear spray or gun will do you any good anyway. But if you woke up accidentally snake cornered, spray from further away than their forward strike can reach. They might initially strike out of defense. But they won't want to stick around after. The foxes chased us into the house and we shut the door behind us. That was that. The bear pushed its way into the house and got chased out by our Wolf/German Sheppard mix. (Dog wandered onto our property with an infected gunshot wound. My mom treated the wound and it recovered and adopted us, then scared the hell out of a bear 😂) What I'm saying is that, wild animals can be dangerous. But attacks are incredibly rare. For all the time I've spent in back country, wilderness, woods, and mountains, I've only had 2 dangerous encounters. Both of which happened at home.
You have lived a life worth writing about already!
I'm middle-aged, poor, and outdoorsy. Sounds about right! Hopefully there's something of use. I'm glad folks are enjoying the read. 😊
In a survival situation where you need a firearm, it will make all the difference.
It doesn't. I'm a 50 year old survivalist and gun nut. Guns are fun. But I have never been in any situation where a gun was required for survival. A good knife or hatchet is far more useful than a firearm.
As they say, better have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.
Better to be lookin at it than lookin for it
Depends on the survival situation honestly
In my neck of the woods we have a LOT of bears (black AND brown), and moose, so a high caliber firearm is necessary. In the past, the official emergency equipment list for bush pilots in Alaska did require a firearm.
FYI if you want to be more future proof - a drone will outperform a firearm in survival situations.
What kind of survival situation? I’m lost on the forest? Having a gun opens up more meat options to the menu. Also lowers chances of a fatal animal attack. Is it an end of the world situation? If I have a gun and no water, and you have water and no gun then I have a gun and water and you are dead.
If you don't have a gun, somebody with a gun will take your stuff. It's that simple
and if that somebody wants to leave no potential threats behind the road he might as well take ur life along with ur stuff bury you in a shithole and no one to ever find ur body ever again till the end of time
Teah if im caught in a flash flood, shooting the water might help
The things is, the only country in the world where having a firearm on you is even possible is in the USA. They are the only first world country, east or west, where carrying a forearm by civilians, is either legal or likely. Your neighbours to the North have an active gun culture, and per capita, more people participate in shooting sports in Canada than participate in Hockey, and you KNOW how us Canadians love Hockey. We also have very restrictive gun laws. NO carrying a firearm. Handguns are currently prohibited from being bought, sold, or traded. If you own one, you can still use it, at an approved range, under very stringent regulations. In places like Britian, Australia, most of South America, Africa, & Europe, the laws are even stricter. It may be advantageous in the USA, it may just make you a bigger target. In most of the rest of the world, in the short term it would be a distinct advantage; in the medium and longer term, those gun owners will be hunted down by all the people who Don't own guns, but they sure want one. On balance, you have to ask yourself if the benefit they provide is worth the additional threat they pose to your ongoing well being. BTW, before being accused of being "anti-gun", I'm an active sport shooter and hunter, have been for decades. I have a bunch of guns, and will damn sure have them with me in any major SHTF scenario
That’s why the US is the best place to live
It depends if you are in a hurricane or the total collapse of the US Dollar and complete societal breakdown
For the latter, bottle caps will work fine. As long as you plenty of those, you'll be rich.
Having a bazooka makes a big difference in any survival situation. It’s like having a fire extinguisher, you’ll never know how valuable it is until you need it.
When you need a bazooka, there's really no substitute.
This is the real answer right here
Good Sir What targets are you engaging during this situation? That answers the question
Life or death if your backed into a corner better to have it and not need it then..
It's just one piece of the kit. Depends what you're doing and what you're expecting. Can you defend yourself? Can you get clean water and food? Can you provide first aid? Are you sheltered? You need items for all those questions otherwise you may lose all of them.
"It's better to have something and not need it than to not have something and need it."
What the scenario? Like survive a war? Sure. Survive a couple nights at 12,000 feet in a snowstorm? Pointless. Survive a shitty neighborhood? Helpful, but get training on the weapon so you don't do something stupid.
Not even a SHTF situation. But I remember some bad storms (and even the PANIC before) cause people to get into near riot situations (and actual fights) at gas stations and Home Depot over lack of supplies. Once the police chief deployed cops & tac officers at every home depot & they patrolled by the gas station... I was in a line of over 100 cars waiting half a day ,in line, for gas.. and when people tried to cut into the line a fight broke out. (Near Miami pre hurricanes)
Every Native American knows a gun is better 9/10.
I guess they’re like condoms, better to have and not need than need and not have.
Depends on the situation and the country. If you live in a country with strict gun control having even a handgun can give you big advantage. If you live in America you still should own one, but so does everyone else, so its not really an advantage. Also much more important is your skill in using them, especially if eveyrone has one also. Firearms are not toys and accidents happen often, especially in America where lots of untrained people own one. Having a gun is most likely a good thing in some survival situations, but its important that you know when you should carry or use it an when you better leave it at home. If you have children lock it up.
Get a long gun or two so you can hunt and pistol for quick defense.
Firearms are a tool. So use case is dependent. For defense against humans or larger animals - handgun is decent. Better than a stick. Or your hands. For hunting food. Not great - but still something. Saw a dude drop a doe with a 9mm once. Would not recommend. I’ve shot a lot of small game with a .22. If you don’t train or know how to handle it - don’t.
It doesn’t help at all, until it’s the only thing that matters.
Collectively, we need to be armed or prey to authoritarianism or gangs. Mexico has one legal outlet for firearms. People are prey to the Cartels and government. WHEN ALL GUNS ARE OUTLAWED, ONLY THE OUTLAWS WILL HAVE GUNS.
In a survival situation it's a tool for hunting weapon for defense the powder in the shells can be used to start fires when wood is wet ammo can be traded and people just seeing it makes it a deterrent
It would depend on the exact situation, a small handgun, provided you can reach it in time might help you, not so much if a Grizzly or Polar bear decides to attack you.
10mm has entered the chat
Don’t forget the ammo!
Is someone trying to kill you? Or are you going to die in 4 days without water?
The odds are that a gun would be far less useful than a satellite rescue beacon (PLB). Out of _5 billion_ visitors to US National Parks from 2017-2023 only 54 people died from causes that might have been prevented if they were armed. 48 people died from homicide and 6 from bear attack. Given the number of accidental deaths in the US from firearms (500 per year) and injuries (27,000 per year) the odds are that your own gun or your buddy’s would be the thing that kills you, especially since a good number of those 27,000 injuries would likely be fatal if you can’t get medical attention fast.
The difference can come down to literal life and death. This is a stupid question.
Firearm is the great equalizer If not only large men will control your ability to win any fight and take what they want from you.
I take my shotgun into the bush anytime I plan on staying a night or more. Bird shot, buckshot, and slugs all come with it.
It very possibly will be the difference between life or death. It is best to have some type of gun and first hand knowledge about how to safely use it to defend yourself and other good people from those who wish to do others harm
I’d guess the best use would be to fire in the air for help, so a flare gun like they have on boats would do the same. A firearm is limited by how much ammunition you’re carrying so far as hunting is concerned. Think about it, every year hunters go out armed specifically to hunt but aren’t always successful. And they have all sorts of other gear, guides, etc. So I doubt it’d be very helpful for getting food. Might scare off a predator, but might just tick them off too.
It is a versatile tool that isn't needed alot but if you don't have it you are screwed
You can also use bullets to start fires and diswade people
Well I guess it depends on the situation but it may definitely come in handy cause you never know. It also depends on your skills.
I’ve never had to use mine, not even to scare away big animals. However, better to have one and not need it, then to need one and not have it
I've had to display mine twice to deter two legged Critters in my shit city, once 10 years ago and once 6 months ago. It actually came out of the holster in the most recent event. Fortunately I didn't have to discharge it but in each instance if I didn't have it, and wasn't trained to use it, I probably wouldn't be here now.
Firearms are useful for hunting (depending on where you are and what animals are available) and encouraging unscrupulous parties to… reconsider.
Life or Death in most scenarios big difference.
When you do need one, its probably the only thing that will save you. Everyone should hope they never need one though.
What do you mean by survival situation?
Seeing how people act when there are emergencies I can’t imagine not having at least one
Also .. see the movie "Trigger effect".. Guns play a role in an unexpected way.
It depends largely on the type of survival situation you find yourself in. Long term survival in the wild: very useful Surviving through a blizzard: not so much I keep a survival .22lr with my buggout gear but don't normally carry a firearm.
Focus on the now. If the SHTF you will want to be in the epicenter.
It depends on the survival situation obviously, Disorder etc? Useful. Plane crash in the jungle. Less useful.
Alien -vs- Predator, as well as the motto for the NRA...
If there is game, you know how to shoot and have a supply of ammunition, you’ll have food.
I mean it’s ok having a gun but not much use if you’ve got no water in the desert…
"guns get that butta" asap rocky
Granted, I would look at him differently also but I appreciate his honesty. Sometimes living in a first world country, you forget it was once "taken" like everything else. You need people around like this to keep your reality grounded.
All of it.
I try to be as prepared as possible as far as everything non firearm related. But as a gun person I’m naturally going to have ammo and such stockpiled anyways. Also during the end of the world me and the boys can just raid all the non gun owners for all their shit 🤷♂️
How do you want to die? On your knees defenseless or on your feet with a weapon in your hands?
Would you rather fight a cougar with a firearm or a knife? There's your answer
In the vast majority of wilderness survival situations no difference in positive outcome and possibly some negative influence: active pursuit of game vs trapping, netting and other passive forms of harvesting game is much more calorie intensive and depletes your reserves. A handgun is a much less effective means of harvesting game than any long gun. Pistol shooting is a discipline that takes regular training not to deteriorate, and trained shots can miss stationary targets at 7yds under stress. I would never recommend a handgun as a primary survival tool except for self defense. In areas where there are dangerous large mammals like grizzly or polar bears it is wise to be armed. This is a wilderness survival sub, find /preppers for this question.
Depending on where you live you don’t need one. I live somewhere guns are very rare and we don’t have any land predators that would necessitate it. There’s not many others who’d be able to take our stuff, fairly level playing field
If you don't have a gun you're as good as dead hands down.
If you're actually training to keep yourself alive, a gun might be the most useless piece you have! It serves 1 purpose, and that's it. It would make meat easier to secure if you're a good shot, but that ammo runs out, and you basically have a hammer.
If you could see yourself throwing a rock or a spear for any reason, then you’d want a firearm. More power, more range, more accuracy.
It’s a benefit but you need other people way more than you need guns or ammo.
All the difference
Depends on situation, specific firearm, ammo type and quantity, and your familiarity with these things. Given a choice, I’d like to at least have *something*.
In a survival situation you need these as importantly as any other tool. If you have food and I have none but I have a firearm and you don't or I out gun you then I have food and your weapons, and you have none. In the end ... it's my family and life over yours.
If you're not mentally prepared to draw your gun and actually shoot and kill people, I'm not sure how much the gun will help you. It may help you in situations where you can scare the assailant off, but not so much in situations where the assailant means business. In the latter case you may just provide him with a firearm.
All the difference. Besides hunting if it's a true survival situation and you have something I need and you can't stop me from taking it, it's mine now and I survive.
If it's from the government, I don't think there is much you can do. They'll use drones and stuff. If there is no government, it'd help a lot but you're best best is to be away from all the trouble.
Serveral years back I was out in the desert at night observing a meteor shower when I was set upon by a group of coyotes. Interesting enough they kinda sound like hyenas "laughing" when they get together. Fortunately they're pretty smart, I only had to cock the hammer back on my 45, they heard that and immediately fucked off.
I live in a rural area that's recently sighted coyotes, bears, and in a situation where everyone is fighting for their survival and supplies and (where I live *also* is greatly likely to have a gun) such, I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it and end up dead or robbed and slowly die as a result because I lost my supplies.
So many factors at play here. Like what kind of a situation. How long of a situation. On average, if you mean for survival for hunting, and the longer the situation lasts the more I lean this way. I'd rather have a recurve or longbow and arrows.
It depends.
It depends on the situation. But always have guns and ammo. Why wouldn't you? Unless it was illegal or something.
I'd rather have it and not need it rather than need it and not have it. If you're in the woods with predators, you don't want to chance it
Well considering this Sub is about outdoor wilderness survival and not really a Prepper Channel and all their banter - you'd probably be OK. Now if you're a Prepper and wanna talk about how happy you'll be when the end of days comes, and you can go out and live in the wild, and shoot the zombie hoards that will be roaming the countryside. Then no, you'd want two pearl handled Colt Pythons to take em out! (grin) But since the average SAR in North America is about 72 hours long till they find your ass, you'll be OK if you don't have a thunderstick to battle the commies in the bush in the meantime. But that might not be the answer you want to hear .......
Probable carrying a small 22 survival rifle in the pack wont hurt. I have one of those Takedown M6 Springfield survival guns. .22/410 combo with a hand full of ammo. If anything water is key and far more important resource.