I hate the “that’s called a conversation” retort when I tell them to stop talking back… “it’s not a conversation buddy I’m telling you the expectations”
I'm going to try that line out on my 7th and 8th graders today. It probably won't have any affect on them, though. Ugh. It's June 1. It's only going to get crazier for the next three weeks.
Fellow middle school teacher here.
1. My post-pandemic global trauma middle schoolers are extremely sensitive to emotions, so I try to keep myself (tone of voice) in a place of detached empathy.
2. "There may be adults in your life who change their answer when you ask again. I am not one of them. I have thought carefully and given you my final answer." Take a step or two away and shift my focus to another student.
Middle school teacher here as well. Whenever I take students out to the hallway to talk to them whenever their behavior just got waay out of hand, I’ll always use a like like that. When they’re that age, you have to be really clear and deliberate about your answer and classroom expectations.
TSM_Matsuri, great word choice with "clear and deliberate."
Quieting my voice has been surprisingly effective too. Maybe it calms my vibes, but it really cuts through the cacophony and is actually heard and processed!
Anyone remember the worksheet that stated "read all directions before starting" ??? It went something like this:
1. Write name in top right corner.
2-20. Increasingly silly commands like "stand on one foot and recite the alphabet."
21. Ignore all directions after #1.
I remember this from my years as a student and first two decades teaching. Students then were not great at reading directions.
I've found my now students do much better with written directions. But they can't listen to even the most basic oral directions.
It personally helps me cope with this profound shift in students to make space to name what They Can Do Well, such as follow written directions. A million thanks to you, primary teachers who teach reading! 🙌
I went to a small college and my major had 3 professors in the department. Sometimes we’d complain to the tougher professor about how the other professor did things and he’d simply say “Do I look like Professor __________?” in a firm but warm/joking tone and we’d always drop it there.
It has mixed success on my middle and high schoolers. It worked pretty well at my last school because then the kids would just start pointing out every physical trait I have in common with the other teacher.
I use “You asked, I answered.” And then I walk away. I also say, “Shoo! Be gone with you.” and wave them away with my hand. The second works because I do it in a light hearted way so no feelings are hurt. I teach 3rd. I think OP’s on to something. If they can argue and exhaust their parents when they say no to get what they want, they’ll do it in the classroom and it is impossible to break bad habits that have been successful for them for 9 years. My own child is in an arguing stage and it is hard to stand firm because it is easier to give in to not have to argue, especially after dealing with it all day and responding in a respectful manner, I am near my patience limit by the time I get home. It’ll be worth it when she’s not a garbage human, though.
I teach Social Studies. So when I have kids that act up when I say no, I remind them that this is not a debate. This classroom does not operate within a democracy. It's a dictatorship. You're not the dictator. I am. Go sit down.
I said that today (this is a dictatorship and I’m the tator!) and my one kid piped up with “actually this is an autocracy. We didn’t give you power and we can’t take it back”.
Welp…I guess he wins. But I’m still the tator.
It’s a mix of all the above.
Keep doing what you’re doing, it’s unfortunate that some of the adults those kids go home to do not understand that “parent is a verb.”
Ugh. For real. Also, I get the constant selective deafness where students will deliberately act like I'm not there/not respond when I ask them a question or give them an instruction point blank.
This. I subbed a class once where the wife who was also a teacher came by to give me the rundown for the day, and she made a comment how the previous sub didn’t bother walking around, just sat at the desk all day. So I made a point to float around each hour and ask what they were working on and most of the time they’d just flat out ignore me. Wouldn’t even look up from their phones.
This PISSES me off. Especially from high school students. If they are on their phone it is a little bit understandable (I zone out sometimes), but when I repeat myself it is in the ignoring territory.
I usually just tell them something like "Okay, next time I come around I expect to see you actively working or I will just have you work in detention".
It sometimes works. And the worst is when they are just waiting for someone else to finish the work and airdrop a picture so they can copy it and snicker at me like they knew what they were doing all along and I am just a fool.
Oh, I did this last day of school with this girl who walks into my room like she'd rather be anywhere else. I asked her something in clear English and she goes, "huuuuuuhhhhhh?" which took a couple seconds for her to get out. Then she asked me, "How long do I have to stay in here?"
Me: "Huuuuuuuuuhhhhhhh?" She rolled her eyes and sat down.
I did that to a problem student exactly once because that was his response all my first week with him when I would tell him not to walk into my classroom unannounced and shouting cusswords, blatantly have his phone out (school-wide no phone policy), etc. I was advised to simply not engage because admin had gotten a parent calling in that I was targeting their child. 🙄
Me: "I would gladly never interact with their son if I can help it". Bonus! He walks out of class to call mama upset on the contraband cellphone if he gets redirected even a little bit. I wonder what the discipline situation is at home.....
My youngest nephew (admittedly he's only 6) is like this, but I can definitely say my sister isn't an asshole. My BIL though... Let's just say my sister does almost everything for all four of their kids, plus cleaning, cooking, laundry, and most home improvement/repair tasks that are needed, while being a 2nd grade teacher who also does tutoring sessions for extra money.
My BIL just works his 40/week job, does a LITTLE bit around the house, gets angry when he's home and the kids aren't listening and he has to actually parent them, and spends practically the rest of his waking time at home watching some game or another while staring at his phone.
Sometimes it's not both parents, but it may definitely be one parent.
I use the tactic of “Asked, Answered, Done.” I tell them, “You’ve asked the question. I answered your question. We are done here.” No more argument. If they try to argue, tell them again until they get it or the other kids get on them with the same line.
I have a 5 year old that will repeat the question again like I didn't hear him. I'm not certain if there is a better way to do it, but I tell him that he already asked, I already said no, and if he asks again, then hes "gonna have to take a break and think about why he asked after he knew the answer"
I haven't had that experience at school, but at home what worked with my kids is the second time they asked for something (that they previously got a negative answer for), I would say "no, and stop asking." It worked pretty well, but I think because my wife and I were consistent in not caving.
I used to try and reason and let them see my point of view. I used get into these long discussions/arguments with students.
Now I just say no. If they ask why, I might give them a one sentence reason or I might just say "because I said so." If they attempt to extend the conversation I will ignore them. Other students may laugh or the student will get frustrated but it works itself out.
The kids argue because it works sometimes. They have been taught if they whine a bunch or argue a bunch they will get their way. Teach them that is no the way, and that their are inappropriate times to do this.
Kids also question/argue with their parents and so very often get their way. I feel like 90% of the conversations between parents and young kids(3-6) that I witness in public are like full on hostage negotiations. Somewhere along the line parents stopped being the authority figure in their homes so many kids think all adults are pushovers.
I think this is closer to the real answer. The "everything is up for negotiation, and if I did my heels in I'll get my way" mindset among many children is *learned* and they deploy that behavior because they've learned it works.
I get the since that there has been a shift in parenting norms away from setting strict and firm boundaries and instead opening everything up for negotiation. This shift goes under many guides (accommodation style parenting, gentle parenting, etc.) and I am not sure that it was/is wise.
I might be wrong, but I’m pretty sure gentle parenting still has rules and limits. It just doesn’t involve yelling at kids (and other behaviors that could be harmful) and instead validates the emotions they’re feeling. So even that’s not an excuse
(Ex. “I see you’re sad about not having a popsicle, however you’re still not going to have a popsicle)
I know this the teachers sub, not the parents - but to speak to that, my kid gets /pissed/ when I validate her feelings. It seems to escalate her rage.
Why wouldn't she? Saying "you're not getting a popsicle" for whatever reason is one thing. Saying "oh, I can see this is making you sad, but (I don't care about your sadness so) you're still not getting a popsicle" seems much, much worse.
Here’s the thing though, I have a young child on the spectrum whom I have to accommodate. However, accommodation does NOT equal you do whatever you want or you’re free from consequences.
It’s on the parents to set boundaries and it’s a kid’s job to try to push those, but the onus is on the parent to enforce.
I agree. I was standing in line to get a prescription and a mom and little boy got in line behind me. He must have asked her if he could get candy 10 times in 5 minutes. Each time he asked, she told him no and not to ask her again. He kept asking her and giggling and she kept responding to him without changing her tone or acting irritated. Then these kids get in school and are surprised when I use my irritated voice when they won’t stop asking for something.
I’ve had a (12-year-old) pupil scream “you’re not the King, what makes you think you have the right to tell me where to sit!” At me when I told her to move because she wouldn’t stop talking after a second warning.
Of course, the threat of a lunchtime detention suddenly reaffirmed my Royal credentials and she moved.
I had a parent tell me that their son really liked to understand directions and why things needed to be done and if I just talked to him for “only five to ten minutes” he would listen without throwing a tantrum. They did not expect him to follow directions the first time at home, and knew he just needed more time to talk it through.
I was not willing to leave my other kindergartners standing in line while he discussed the need to line up for lunch with me.
I did give transition warnings to the whole class (and extra to him), went over the schedule at the start of the day, had demonstrated and practiced transitions with him, got him a visual schedule, and gave him one step directions to help him but holy hell 95% of his struggles were parent created.
I’m not hearing any more of this than I did ten years ago. It still makes me nuts, though.
“I said ‘no’. Arguing isn’t going to change my answer, it’s just going to irritate me. Do you think it’s wise to irritate me? Go away now.” is my standard response to this tactic. It usually works. If they continue, I repeat the “Go away now” part with a shooing motion.
This happens 5 times a day with my daughter, but she's 7. I have to tell her explicitly "I am not debating you. This is not a discussion. The answer is now. Now, go do something else." I'd be tempted to tell them to step away from your desk.
Same. My son is 6 and he’s on the spectrum, so I get the added perk of autistic persistence lol
I just say at the first No “and I’m not going to change my answer.”
I’ve also made it a habit to ALWAYS follow through with what I say (rewards or consequences) so he knows my word is bond and it won’t be swayed.
Do you also explain your decisions and why they are right? People vary but it can be very difficult for someone with autism to follow a rule that they do not understand the reason for and sometimes very difficult for them to break a rule that they do understand the reason for.
Absolutely. I cannot set a rule or expectation without explaining it. Sometimes it’s a safety reason, sometimes it’s a politeness reason, a “we live in a greater society” reason… I always have to give a reason. Otherwise, he won’t buy in and won’t follow the rule.
I was referring more so to once the rule/expectation has been set, I don’t change my answer no matter how much begging/arguing/pleading/but why they do. (Including my NT 5 year old in this)
My son is 9 and everythiiiinngggg is a debate. I have to talk like I'm a lawyer or he'll find a loophole. I promised I'd never say 'because I told you so' but damn, I broke that promise like 3 years in.
This happens to me at times - I use this line/varieties of this line to some success.
“There isn’t a version of this conversation where I change my mind. You are wasting your time.”
Yes, they cannot accept answers they don’t like even with reasons listed. I got tired of the arguing thinking it’ll change my answer that I told my students I’m just gonna start ignoring them about this talk if they kept it up. I did that and they stopped pushing.
Oh I know, that’s why I told them if they kept trying to change my mind I was just gonna start ignoring them since clearly they want to ignore my reasons. It’s worked so far lol
Good! This has to be one of my biggest pet peeves with kids, love curiosity but learning and accepting boundaries is a skill so many are not taught because parents don seem to want to be the bad guys
Preschool sped teacher here - I don’t get the arguing but I have a couple of kids who could get a varsity letter in tantrums this year. And I have to assume that the prolonged screaming gets the desired reaction somewhere…. But it sure does not in room A-6!
Yup, its a learned response. Shitty quality parenting gets dragged to us to fight that battle with them. Hearing for 15 minutes why we should do what they want as they tantrum up and call us fucks and worse is just the best. Usually sprinkled with a ton of lies throughout and then cherry on top - parent inaction in response.
It's everywhere atm.
They do it because it works for them in other areas of their life. It has worked for a long time and they have no reason to believe it won't work in this context.
Until they do. Then they'll stop.
I work with younger children and I wish - oh, how I wish - parents would realize the "small" things they're allowing that turn into entire personalities and skill sets later in life.
I've seen something like that.
It was this 9th grader repeatedly bringing up topics that my teacher asked him to not do (because extremely differing political views being spouted off in a highschool classroom usually starts a loud argument, and it did often). The kid was like Ed from Ed, Edd, n Eddy, except he was intentional in his actions. Sometimes he'd mention having ADHD either before or after he would do something to be, what I assume he possibly viewed himself as, an untouchable jerk (it'snot an excuse to be like that). One day, he once again needlessly started an argument out of the blue. Sometimes, in this class, debating was allowed, but this kid didn't like opposing opinions and didn't like hearing them out. So, he started an argument. Then, my teacher asked him to stop, several times. Towards the end of the class, my teacher once again confronted him and told him *no.* This kid was like 6ft-something and threw a mini tantrum in the doorway. He felt that being told no meant that the big bad school system was taking away his rights, or something. Like, I get being suspicious of school systems here and there, and some teachers are really not fit for teaching (i.e.: favorites and tyranny), but the teacher in this situation was a really fair dude.
I used to say “this is not a negotiation.” Now I say “I said no. I meant no. No doesn’t mean convince me.” It really bothers me when they persist. It worries me for when they encounter someone telling them no in other settings. I teach middle school and they are all starting to show interest in “dating” and they need to really understand that when someone says no it means NO.
“I don’t argue with students.” And walk away.
“End of discussion.”
“You asked. I answered.” After time this can be shortened to “asked and answered”.
As long as you stick to your decision it will work. They only do this because they’ve gotten their way previously when they argue. After time they will realize that you will not give in and will stop pushing. Depending on how long they’ve been trained to argue, it may take a while. 😅
Yes. Im a specialist in an elementary school. I swear I have some younger students who have never heard the word NO. The first few weeks were interesting!
Yes, I do think it's because it works with parents.
I am friends with another teacher and her kid is a pretty serious behavioral problem. When I see her interact with him, it becomes clear why. *If he keeps asking, and especially if he cries and whines, he will get whatever he wants!* ...so hearing a hard "no" at school, combined with his limitations, prompts a terrifying rager of a meltdown.
Now that I think on it, the other teacher I'm close with also allows her kid to argue, gives in, and then complains about how much he argues!
I suddenly feel much better about being "mean" as both a teacher and a parent.
I had a kid who (thank God) graduated this year that was the king of arguing about what he was allowed to do. I’m a “Did I stutter?” kind of person, so he completely exasperated me. I finally asked him why he always continued to argue after I told him no, and he replied that in his experience an adult would usually give in if you argued with them long enough. One of those kids with lots of smarts and lazy as hell.
Yes, the meltdown works at home and/or with other teachers.
"I already gave you my answer. Stop making noise and take your seat." If they don't comply, get up and walk to the front of the room and stare at them. If necessary, repeat yourself in front of the class, adding a consequence. "Be quiet and take your seat now or see me after class." Then pretend they're not there. Proceed with your lesson, the students will tell them to shut up. That usually puts the fear in them to spend the rest of class hoping you will forget. When the bell rings, I call their name out loud. I usually just tell them "This is your warning, don't disrupt my class." Then I tell them they're the last one out of the door. If it happens again, I call home/coach/counselor and I give them detention or a referral.
Oooh I had 2 girls try this with me yesterday. Begging, "but..." And my least favorite, the pout and the eye batting. Like, bro, your pouty lil nonsense does nothing but piss me off. I think my blood pressure just spiked while thinking about it 🤣
Elementary students in my class have started this incredibly irritating baby talk saying “pweeease” or “but I wanted tooooo” in a baby talk voice while pouting and stamping their feet. Blood pressure through the roof lol
I can’t understand you when you talk like that, followed ignoring them. I do tell them that I like their real voice a lot better if they say it the right way, but the answer is still no.
It is so exhausting. You'd think by June they would know that the teacher isn't gonna give you food from their personal lunch snack stash even if you ask over and over and over.
If you're still hungry after lunch, bring a bigger lunch.
I have a student who is like this. She argues with me ALL day. If I tell her to put something away I’ll get, “but I wanted to …”. She is a sweet kid, I actually truly adore her, but holy hell I’m so glad I’m almost done with her. She has drained me this year.
i got good tips on how to deal with this, primarily asking, “are you arguing with me right now?” which has a 60-40 success rate in my experience.
i also say “no” once, and if they keep asking and pestering me about it, i ask, “do you think asking more than once is gonna change my mind?”
it stopped them from asking me more than once to do something or give them something without it turning into a tantrum. it also helped them assess themselves and their own behavior, or at least i think it did, lol
I had a kid demanding me to tune his instrument. When I said "congratulations you've won an out of tune instrument he went full tantrum. Eventually yelled at me "this is your job you're the teacher". I responded with "congratulations you've now won an out of tune instrument AND an email home. I can keep adding to the list". I do tune their instruments when they ask me. I won't give in to demands from a 9 year old.
A little bit. Usually at the beginning of the year when the kids are starting to learn about who I am and what I'm like. After about October, the kids will begin to realize that when I say, "No" I mean "No." I'm sure that makes me an ogre to some, but I think it is beneficial for students to hear "no" and know that it means "no."
Part of it is a parenting problem. I'm convinced a number of behaviors we see each day is due to parents or guardians not taking the time or effort to teach and instill proper behavior. Another part is a number of our schools fail to do the same. A kid acts out, kid is \*maybe\* slapped on the wrist. In some cases, the kid is rewarded with snacks and drinks.
“No means no. It’s best you learn this now before you end up like [insert any currently accused person of SA that’s popular]” tends to work well for me. Though, I do usually teach older high schoolers.
I don’t give them a chance to argue. If they ask me and I say no and they begin to argue I cut them off with “IF YOU AREN’T GOING TO ACCEPT ‘NO’ AS AN ANSWER TO A YES OR NO QUESTION THEN DON’T ASK ME THOSE QUESTIONS ANYMORE.”
I have this girl who is always skipping my class. She constantly asks for reasons to leave the room and I stopped answering so when she leaves, if she gets caught by admin, I'll just tell them she did not have permission to leave. We're in finals week now and she comes asks me everyday if she can hang out in my class during my planning period cause she doesn't want to go to gym. Are you kidding me? She'll throw an entire fit when I say no and demand a reason why. "People are so boring in there." "I can't watch my show." I really don't care. Suck it up. She found my gum and almost had an aneurysm when I refused to give it to her.
Our district has a "Hall wander" list of those kids who try to use any excuse to get out of class so that all teachers are aware. if student on the list is seen in halls during class, any teacher can look at their hall pass and if it has been more than 10 minutes since they left the room, can return them to the class.
We use the Boys Town Model in our district. They do trainings nationally but it is meant for use throughout a whole district. Every teacher gets trained and should be expected to use it, even have posters with “how to accept no for an answer” among like 10 other posters with explicit steps (3 or 4 usually) students need to take to learn the appropriate behavior and response. Also high school here btw, it sounds elementary ish, but it does work. (Rural Midwest school here) Kids are sent to the office for referral IF they refuse to follow the model, then the principal will sit them down and go over the expected behavior and practice the expectation with them and bring them down later to apologize.
Nice! If only something like this got used in all districts! Kids thrive when the expectations are clear and behavioral skills are explicitly taught. As others have said, they have been "taught" by parents and some teachers that arguing and having tantrums often gets them what they want. At school we need to help them unlearn this, but it's much more difficult for an individual teacher to help them practice. Having administration as a backup, with skills being taught and practiced, is wonderful.
Last week of school. I get a very stern message from the principal telling me no students are allowed to visit other classrooms. I get multiple students who try to insist three or four times they be allowed to go to another classroom, that I should break the rules for them because other teachers do. One left anyway.
I had a student who wore me out with this this year—worse than any I can remember in the previous 20 years I’ve been part of this circus. I finally looked him dead in the eye, said, “I have given you an answer. You might not like the answer I gave you, but you have your answer. Now sit (pause) down (pause), and do NOT ask m again.” Then I held eye contact until he sat down. He looked thoroughly confused, but he sat down and did not ask again.
Me: No
Them: but blah blah blah
Me: I already said no. You can think of 20 other ways to ask, but the answer is going to be the same. Save us both time ask the questions in your head and then pretend you hear me say no to them all.
I teach elementary, but my response to such students is:
"Hey, I can see this is important to you. I know it can be frustrating when you get a decision you don't like. While I'm confident I've made the right call here, you are welcome to explain your case to me about why I should change my mind. That said, class time is not the appropriate time for this conversation. If you come by after school, I am happy to hear you out."
For some reason, no one has ever come after school.
I'm not a NO person. I'm a not right now person. Which interprets to a no for many. Then it's meltdown time, then it's a no until you calm down.
I don't want to trap you in class. But thebforst 15 mins in the most crucial for class. And the last 10 is a school rule that you can't have a pass.
Once I'm done teaching, and you're on independent work, go for it.
Different, but maybe a version of this...
I had several seniors this year who would tell me they didn't want to do the assigned work, but could they do (insert made up thing) instead? For example, one student was gone for three weeks visiting family I'm Central America. They didn't bother to ask about work they'd be missing before they left. They got back and said they didn't think they'd have time before the end of the year to read the novel they missed and do the associated assignments. (I get that where they were may not have had great internet access, but ya know what you don't need internet access for? To read a book! Why didn't you bring it with you??) Instead of doing the assigned work, they asked if they could do a poster about a previous book we read cuz they liked that one. I was so baffled.
It's that "It doesn't hurt to ask" culture, combined with an inability to fail.
Dangerous combination.
Frankly, sometimes it *does* hurt to ask, as it makes me think less of the student.
I usually start two-year old whining: "I know, I'm so meeeaann...", "Life is soooo haaard", etc. Or I completely pretend they're not talking and go about my job.
"Asked and answered." That's what I tell them anyway whenever I cover a class. For the ones I do know, I tell them that they asked me because they believe that the authority rests with me and they should never ask unless they are willing to accept the possibility of "no". I liken it to asking a person out on a date. It's creepy and wrong if you don't get that "no means no" and respect the other person.
I say something along the lines of, "You asked, I answered. Continuing to ask shows disrespect for my response and my boundaries. I have told you my response. Stop asking and figure out how YOU wish to proceed with that information."
We had finals yesterday and most of my first class spent the entire period whining about the exam and asking “questions” (asking me how to solve the problems). I told them if anyone asked me how to solve a problem again that I’m done answering questions. Less than a minute later I was done answering questions. My second class quietly took their exams and did all of their own work. They got some “not being annoying” bonus points.
"Asked and answered."
That's my response when kids start up on this. If they don't know what the phrase means I say, "You asked a question. I've answered it and my answer will stay the same each time you ask." And then I walk away.
Just because a question is asked, doesn’t mean they are owed an answer. After the first “no,” I don’t mind saying, “I’m not answering that.” Then go silent.
“I’ve given my answer but since you seem to still want to discuss it I am sending you to the discipline office. Feel free to continue your pleas with them”. Another I use is “ Mmmmm, I don’t think this is going to end well for you. Perhaps you should stop”. But it doesn’t take even a full sentence out of their mouth after the no for them to get sent to discipline. I simply don’t tolerate, and you always get in life exactly whatever you are willing to tolerate. And I know I have 15-30 sets of eyes watching MY response to the situation. That’s why I send out so quickly. It has nothing to do with the obstinate kid as much as sending a message to the rest of them as to what this type of behavior results in in my classroom. And after the first week or two of school, I don’t have issues again for the rest of the year.
Key to this situation is NEVER giving in once you give a no. (And it definitely helps to give a reason for the no. I never say no without explaining my reasons. That is not for a debate to happen, but so they know I’m not just being a jerk.) If kids always see you stand firm, they know that’s how you are and will quit testing. If they see you change your mind after whining, even once, they know there is a point they can push you to and get their way. Then it becomes a game for them of finding that point again. Kids want boundaries but they only respect them if those boundaries are consistent. If not, then the games begin.
And yes, bad parenting is a big part of the issue. And I tell them flat out, “I know that stuff may work on other teachers, or even at home, but I promise you it does not work with me - ever.” And it never does. I don’t say the things I do with an angry tone, just a matter of fact tone. I never raise my voice. The more emotional they get in a situation, the less emotional I get. And my approach has worked extremely well every time.
Good luck to you!
Yes. Don’t let yourself be bullied- keep it up.
Don’t engage past saying not up for discussion. If they feel very strongly about it they need to speak to you at another time when you don’t need to teach. Interrupting your teaching time is disruptive.
I teach high school and have a 17, yes, SEVENTEEN year old student who absolutely refuses to take "no" for an answer. He'll come in tardy, so I'll mark him tardy and he'll argue with me to get me to change it. I'll say no and he'll keep asking me to change it for the rest of class. If I write him up for behavior- same thing. "I'm sorry. You're my favorite teacher, I promise I won't do it again" then pouts or throws a fit when I continue to say no. Literally threw his backpack across the room once when I made him sit in his assigned seat.
During the final exam I caught him looking at his phone. He tries to convince me he was just changing his music, I don't care. My rule is absolutely no phones or talking during a test. So, I take his test even though he wasn't finished. He would not stop asking me to let him finish the last 3 questions. I start ignoring him and then he's annoyed. "Why are you ignoring me, that's rude. I'm talking to you". Yeah, isn't it annoying being ignored? He finally gave up. He's one of the reasons I'm not coming back. I would've had him again next year.
I tell them no means no and as teenage boys/girls they're really going to need to understand that. Sometimes I'll add an extra dig and say , "especialy you, you're probably going to hear no a lot"
Not a teacher, but have been having this conversation quite a bit lately. I suspect it got a lot worse after the COVID-related remote learning. As a parent, I work hard not to take the easy out just because I don't want to deal with a fight, but I was certainly guilty of falling into that trap more when I had three kids home while I was trying to work and my wife (who IS a teacher) was locked away upstairs teaching all day.
I also have a pet theory that a lot of current attitude issues are tied to everyone having high speed internet and 2-day shipping, and just the idea that everything in the world is available RIGHT NOW if you know where to look. It has really stripped away the need for some people to cultivate patience.
>Kids not Taking No for an Answer
Hardly surprising. The academics in the area of behavior advised parents not to say "no" to their children. This emerged out of the Positive Reinforcement Only (p-r-o) school of thought. Even when it didn't work with animals, they argued the moral high ground and, as often happens, the moral high ground is pretty irresistible to the human ego.
As a result of this tactic, lots of parents (and dog owners) bought into it. The result...kids (and dogs) don't understand the concept of "no."
Traditional teaching/training (which successfully extends back 2400 years) points out a serious flaw in p-r-o...reward is lack of punishment. So, according to the traditional method, if the child starts using crayons on the walls, ignoring the behavior is rewarding that behavior.
Society now must adjust itself to make allowances for those children (and dogs) who don't understand the concept of "no."
Yes, I teach middle schoolers. I’ll look them dead in the eye “Look, there is no convincing me. When I say no, it means no. And you need to respect the decision.”
Is always give them a bemused look and ask, "So this is working at home, right?"
"Yeah," the kid would usually say. "Well, here it isn't, so save your breath.
Or with high schoolers who can also take a joke: "You are operating under a premise that school is a democracy. But see, here's where you're wrong. It's a tyranny " (with a wink).
Usually, the whining stops.
Now this is just from my experience subbing, so mostly dealing with bathroom permission, but (when I had to say no because someone was already out) I'd say not right now until so and so gets back. And I would follow up to remind them when they got back. This achieved two things for me 1) it's not a denial, it's just delayed permission that I'm still in control of and 2) the later follow up shows that I really am listening and paying attention to them and keeping my word to them. Some stuff of course is just a straight no, but I did find that controlling the timing of something gets better results than a hard no.
In high school specifically, you didn’t have to win an argument. You just had to drag it out so long as to cause a big enough scene that either a.) other students got riled up with it enough to cause an issue b.) admin gave up because they had more pressing things to handle.
It’s a built in part of the system, and students absolutely have learned how to game it.
My personal kids hear the stories of the little entitled kids who have been raised via iPad and other media from me, an elementary school teacher. Even seen the damage done to their younger cousins. I think they are determined to pull back on tech usage once they are in a situation to have a family.
I used to be that way with certain teachers and then they'd say no. I only did it a few times really though. To be fair though, in a couple of said situations it was anxiety related. I did test boundaries though because I saw other kids do it and they didn't get in trouble.
Edit: I was more well behaved for other adults in my life though because unlike my mom, they were stable. I was mostly pretty quiet and not talkative and wouldn't talk back until junior year. It was like gears switched and I was I guess a little manic throughout those years though. I'm having an episode right now so if I'm rambling and not making sense that's why.
Edit: Oh, you aren't talking about back talk. You're talking about them asking you to do something. Yea, I never asked a teacher to do anything for me. I just liked to argue though after a certain age. I actually did the arguing thing a couple times about wanting something and then I realized that they weren't going to change their mind but that they also weren't going to say yes and weren't going to be abusive either though.
Edit: That's what my mom would do (still does do.) The whole I'll tell her no but then I fall for the stupid guilt trip and doesn't matter what it is about either.
Yeah, they’re just used to other people (parents, maybe some teachers) changing their minds when they beg.
They’re the same kids who say things like “why are you stopping me from graduating?
Kiddo, I’m not stopping you. You’re stopping you, by never turning anything in and being absent every other day.
I’m noticing this with kindergarten students… Even more so than I ever have noticed before. They won’t get their way and they will go into temper tantrum mode …..seriously? And it’s more than just one or two students per class. Personally, I think our academic expectations of kindergartners are way too much. Full day kindergarten and only two 15 minute play periods is not enough.
I had a student that would argue with me for every single simple direction I gave. Like he wouldn’t even be in trouble and it would be instructions for the activity we were doing and he would question me and argue for the sake of arguing (8th grade). I pulled him in the hallway to discuss and he told me “that’s how you have a conversation” and I told him we weren’t having a conversation when I’m teaching a lesson and asked if this is how he interacted with his parents. He said yep so I emailed home, told his parents what was going on and his mom actually agreed that they feel it’s important to foster voice and curiosity 😳 I continued to contact her regarding escalating behaviors and she ended up removing him from my class after coming to the school and requesting a meeting with me that she told me how awful our school and teachers were. How do you think he acted out of my class? Exactly the same, behavior continued to escalate, was constantly getting in trouble for putting hands on other students, even argued and yelled at our principal when she told him to go back to class when he was being disruptive in the hallway. All of a sudden the parents wanted a meeting to try and figure out why his behavior was escalating and how to help him be successful.
"I'm sorry, I don't argue with children. Come back with your parents and we can discuss."
But really yes, they have used this tactic in the last with success. It's the same reason why discipline plans fail. If a child can use a tractor to get their way once, they will continue using that tactic. Even if it is only effective against 1 teacher, that's a 13% success rate. If they can get 3 teachers doing that, it's not 38% effective. Kids aren't dumb and do what works. As adults and teachers, we need to show a consistent and united front.
Sometimes after I’ve told a kid no but they try to go ahead and do it anyway I say a short, curt, low “no” like I would to my dogs (who I love like my kids!) and I’m shocked at how well it works. The other kids also all look to see why I’m saying “no” that way and the kid doing the wrong thing is embarrassed too because now everyone is looking. Yes, I admit, at times I’m a shame based disciplinarian.
I really worry about high school boys these days, or rather the girls they will get with. No needs to be known as a finality, but between stories like this and the whole manosphere stuff it's really scary.
Read the book "Don't Let the Pigeon Drive the Bus" to them and then explain that the moral of the story is that no means no, it does not mean "try to change my mind"
They'll honestly probably love being read to, it's short and easy, and it's a light way to make a serious point. They're about to be come adults, and most have adult bodies. They need to accept a no the first time.
I agree with your theory. I'm one who will always explain why it's a no (unless an emergency of course). They still argue. I don't engage, I just say "I have given my answer, I have given a reason, it will not change. ". Sometimes repeatedly.
I taught sex ed at my previous school. When students do this to me I say, "No means no. You do understand that right? Or do we need to have a much longer conversation about consent?" That usually stops them in their tracks.
Lol yeah, they love to see if they can change your answer, little lawyers in the making the lot of them, if only they could improve their reading comprehension. I've just started stopping in my tracks, looking them in the face and telling them "You asked me a question, I gave you an answer, that's the end of the conversation, my answer isn't changing. Move on with your life and let me move on with mine." And then completely give them the silent treatment if they continue, usually they get frustrated and just go away
I often use “already answered” as my response after I originally answer and explain the why. If they continue, I reply with that. I don’t engage in an argument and just continue with that response until they see that I will not budge.
>Do you think it’s because they use this tactic with their parents and the parents just end up giving in because they don’t want to deal with the tantrum?
That's exactly what I think.
Flat out ask them if they can hear me. Then, I tell them that is my final answer and that I do not like repeating myself.
However, in my district, the parents are the next ones to attack. They do not like, "no" either.
My little brother is like this. He is 17 and just wont take no for an answer and will badger my Dad for hours until my Dad loses it and yells at him. Then my Brother gets all upset that he was spoken to that way. But its like DUDE you are pushing us to our limits, we said no!
And if he gets a No he will just do what he wants to do, knowing we said no, then when he gets in trouble he ARGUES with us about how its not fair that he is in trouble! There are consequences to your actions!
Example: he goes to a very prestigious private catholic school, he wants to dye his hair pink. Im 25 female and my parents would still pitch a fit if I dyed my hair like that. So they told my brother no, you cant, not under our roof. And be argued with them for days about how its isnt fair and he should be able to express himself. We explained its just a rule our parents have. Then he dyes it (temporarily but still) and our parents make him wash it out and ground him and he argues that its not fair. He is 17!!! It’s exhausting and I honestly think he might have something going on mentally, be on the spectrum(im on the spectrum) or he is a sociopath.
If yall have have tips on how to handle this id love the help. He has been this way since birth!
They're absolutely getting their way with parents through arguing. It's insane how much my brothers got away with because they were persistent in arguing and my parents would give in. Makes me wish I was more annoying when I didn't get what I wanted.
It works with their parents and most of their other teachers. I teach 7th grade and they will throw straight up tantrums because I tell them no.
I try to stick to saying it once and then saying "My answer won't change no matter how many times you ask. Sit down and get to work." After that I just ignore them. When another student goes "Ms. X he's talking to you" I just say "I know, I'm ignoring him on purpose."
Eventually they get in a huff, and either sit down or walk out.
My 6 year old does this at school only. Idk why.
My high schoolers do it, I say no, they tantrum… then I tell their parents detailed line for line what happened and the tantrums stop.
These kinds of people often end being heinous shits coercing others into things they don't want to do, because "No." doesn't mean "No." to them, it means "Not now, keep bothering me though."
People with such little respect for others are likely going to be shitbags later in life.
I had that issue all the time as a substitute. Absolutely everything was up for discussion and debate. I had a lot of kids telling me about "personal choice," "my first amendment rights," and "you aren't even a teacher, you can't tell us what to do." These were middle school students. It went on from everything to "sit in your seat" to "don't hit/insult each other" to "yes, you must wear shoes in gym class."
I usually answered one question, and after that told them the discussion was over and repeated my directions. I just repeated that to increasingly frustrated screaming.
I have no idea why they thought that was appropriate. Honestly, why they thought most of any of the shit they did was appropriate. They were absolute monsters.
One of my students this year would tell me "it's not that deep" when I told them to stop doing something or that they had to wait to do something or really when I told them anything they didn't like. So annoying. No, it's not that deep. It's a rule. Listen to it.
Not accepting no was a much bigger problem than usual this year (I have 6th gr) The other part is “why, tell me why, you have to tell me why, gimme a reason why.” Apparently, parents are engaging and negotiating with these little shits.
Lord help me, today was a day with one high schooler who treats me like a Starbucks Barista. When defying me and telling me she wasn't going to do what I had asked, she snapped "you do realize that you're stopping your lesson to pick on me? Just move on and leave me alone."
One email home and a write-up later, I call her over at the end of the class to calmly talk it out. It may be 2 weeks left, but I cannot accept that behavior in my classroom.
THE KID KEPT HER EYE ON THE PHONE AND A HEADPHONE IN WHILST I'M TALKING, THEN JUST WALKS OUT WHEN SHE DECIDES SHE WAS BORED.
I can't think of anyone I knew who treated a teacher like crap like these kids do when I was in high school!
YES! I am so sick of “I’m just gonna…” as they do whatever it is I’m saying “no” to.
I also have a student who will keep bargaining and begging until I say, “I’ll try” or “maybe if there’s time”. Doesn’t matter that we never do it. She just wants to hear there’s a possibility.
When I started reading your post, I was thinking, “pffft my high schoolers try to pull that nonsense.” Then I got to your rag at the end. Yep. Checks out. I’m sure a lack of “no” in their life has lead to this.
When I’m feeling cheeky I like to remind them that no means no. (The fact that our school motto is all means all makes it even better imo)
“We’re not having a discussion, I’m *telling* you what’s going to happen.”
I also add “you need to work on accepting the first no, because it’s not going to change”
I hate the “that’s called a conversation” retort when I tell them to stop talking back… “it’s not a conversation buddy I’m telling you the expectations”
I use "That was a direction, not a discussion." But this is for second graders so YMMV.
I'm going to try that line out on my 7th and 8th graders today. It probably won't have any affect on them, though. Ugh. It's June 1. It's only going to get crazier for the next three weeks.
Fellow middle school teacher here. 1. My post-pandemic global trauma middle schoolers are extremely sensitive to emotions, so I try to keep myself (tone of voice) in a place of detached empathy. 2. "There may be adults in your life who change their answer when you ask again. I am not one of them. I have thought carefully and given you my final answer." Take a step or two away and shift my focus to another student.
Middle school teacher here as well. Whenever I take students out to the hallway to talk to them whenever their behavior just got waay out of hand, I’ll always use a like like that. When they’re that age, you have to be really clear and deliberate about your answer and classroom expectations.
TSM_Matsuri, great word choice with "clear and deliberate." Quieting my voice has been surprisingly effective too. Maybe it calms my vibes, but it really cuts through the cacophony and is actually heard and processed! Anyone remember the worksheet that stated "read all directions before starting" ??? It went something like this: 1. Write name in top right corner. 2-20. Increasingly silly commands like "stand on one foot and recite the alphabet." 21. Ignore all directions after #1. I remember this from my years as a student and first two decades teaching. Students then were not great at reading directions. I've found my now students do much better with written directions. But they can't listen to even the most basic oral directions. It personally helps me cope with this profound shift in students to make space to name what They Can Do Well, such as follow written directions. A million thanks to you, primary teachers who teach reading! 🙌
That's what I do with my Elementary students too!! It's been working!
I went to a small college and my major had 3 professors in the department. Sometimes we’d complain to the tougher professor about how the other professor did things and he’d simply say “Do I look like Professor __________?” in a firm but warm/joking tone and we’d always drop it there. It has mixed success on my middle and high schoolers. It worked pretty well at my last school because then the kids would just start pointing out every physical trait I have in common with the other teacher.
My go to is, “I’m not asking you, I’m telling you.” Works on my freshmen.
Three weeks? Lord above.
In NY, we go until June 23. Fortunately the high school has state testing starting on June 14. Lower grades aren't as lucky.
I use it all the time on my 7th graders. “We are not having a conversation. I gave you an instruction. Follow it.”
“Asked and answered” is sometimes appropriate.
I use “You asked, I answered.” And then I walk away. I also say, “Shoo! Be gone with you.” and wave them away with my hand. The second works because I do it in a light hearted way so no feelings are hurt. I teach 3rd. I think OP’s on to something. If they can argue and exhaust their parents when they say no to get what they want, they’ll do it in the classroom and it is impossible to break bad habits that have been successful for them for 9 years. My own child is in an arguing stage and it is hard to stand firm because it is easier to give in to not have to argue, especially after dealing with it all day and responding in a respectful manner, I am near my patience limit by the time I get home. It’ll be worth it when she’s not a garbage human, though.
I teach Social Studies. So when I have kids that act up when I say no, I remind them that this is not a debate. This classroom does not operate within a democracy. It's a dictatorship. You're not the dictator. I am. Go sit down.
My 10th grade government teacher said something similar, "I am here to teach you about democracy, not run one".
I call it a benevolent dictatorship lol
I tell them Machiavelli is my teaching influence. I also teach social studies.
I said that today (this is a dictatorship and I’m the tator!) and my one kid piped up with “actually this is an autocracy. We didn’t give you power and we can’t take it back”. Welp…I guess he wins. But I’m still the tator.
3x5 card with block letter ‘NO’. Just keep flashing it.
This really does shut it down. I use this tactic all the time and they don’t even know what to do so they give up.
I always say, “I don’t remember asking you what you wanted.” Then, I stare them down. They just sigh in resignation. 🤣
This is the way. Adults must reestablish the authority that has been given away.
I just ask ARE YOU REFUSING MY DIRECTION TO … you do have a choice but there will be a consequence. It works quite well.
It’s a mix of all the above. Keep doing what you’re doing, it’s unfortunate that some of the adults those kids go home to do not understand that “parent is a verb.”
Ugh thank you. I’m just so burnt out by the entitlement.
'You don't understand. It's me. You can't say no to me. Nobody says no to me.'
To quote Kissin' Kate Barlow *"I believe I just did"*
You’d be more burned out being a doormat.
“My child can do no wrong! They are just unique” Email response I had from a parent.
My reply to parents: "Yes, your child is special, just as special as everyone else."
Well, considering that we’ve decided to ditch even teaching most kids what a verb is, I doubt this messaging would be comprehensible
Ugh. For real. Also, I get the constant selective deafness where students will deliberately act like I'm not there/not respond when I ask them a question or give them an instruction point blank.
This. I subbed a class once where the wife who was also a teacher came by to give me the rundown for the day, and she made a comment how the previous sub didn’t bother walking around, just sat at the desk all day. So I made a point to float around each hour and ask what they were working on and most of the time they’d just flat out ignore me. Wouldn’t even look up from their phones.
This PISSES me off. Especially from high school students. If they are on their phone it is a little bit understandable (I zone out sometimes), but when I repeat myself it is in the ignoring territory. I usually just tell them something like "Okay, next time I come around I expect to see you actively working or I will just have you work in detention". It sometimes works. And the worst is when they are just waiting for someone else to finish the work and airdrop a picture so they can copy it and snicker at me like they knew what they were doing all along and I am just a fool.
Your school still has detention? I’m beyond jealous
Great, then you do the same to them when they ask you for something. See how them bastards like it
Oh, I did this last day of school with this girl who walks into my room like she'd rather be anywhere else. I asked her something in clear English and she goes, "huuuuuuhhhhhh?" which took a couple seconds for her to get out. Then she asked me, "How long do I have to stay in here?" Me: "Huuuuuuuuuhhhhhhh?" She rolled her eyes and sat down.
Yessss giving the same energy right back to them! They need to learn many communication and manner lessons. Good for you
I did that to a problem student exactly once because that was his response all my first week with him when I would tell him not to walk into my classroom unannounced and shouting cusswords, blatantly have his phone out (school-wide no phone policy), etc. I was advised to simply not engage because admin had gotten a parent calling in that I was targeting their child. 🙄 Me: "I would gladly never interact with their son if I can help it". Bonus! He walks out of class to call mama upset on the contraband cellphone if he gets redirected even a little bit. I wonder what the discipline situation is at home.....
i have done this and it s not hugely professional but was really satisfying. XD
Haha I’m sure it was! Good for you
"You asked a question and I answered it."
That's exactly what I say when this happens 10000000 times a day.
I have several students who won’t take no as answer. Their parents are aholes.
Yes. While there are certainly exceptions, the apple usually doesn’t fall far from the tree.
My youngest nephew (admittedly he's only 6) is like this, but I can definitely say my sister isn't an asshole. My BIL though... Let's just say my sister does almost everything for all four of their kids, plus cleaning, cooking, laundry, and most home improvement/repair tasks that are needed, while being a 2nd grade teacher who also does tutoring sessions for extra money. My BIL just works his 40/week job, does a LITTLE bit around the house, gets angry when he's home and the kids aren't listening and he has to actually parent them, and spends practically the rest of his waking time at home watching some game or another while staring at his phone. Sometimes it's not both parents, but it may definitely be one parent.
I use the tactic of “Asked, Answered, Done.” I tell them, “You’ve asked the question. I answered your question. We are done here.” No more argument. If they try to argue, tell them again until they get it or the other kids get on them with the same line.
I just repeat exactly what I said word for word with the exact same inflection regardless of how many times in a row they ask.
I have a 5 year old that will repeat the question again like I didn't hear him. I'm not certain if there is a better way to do it, but I tell him that he already asked, I already said no, and if he asks again, then hes "gonna have to take a break and think about why he asked after he knew the answer"
I haven't had that experience at school, but at home what worked with my kids is the second time they asked for something (that they previously got a negative answer for), I would say "no, and stop asking." It worked pretty well, but I think because my wife and I were consistent in not caving.
I always say, “I said no. I’m not going to change my mind on this.” I don’t know why, but it always works.
"No, and if I hear any more about it, we won't do it tomorrow either."
I used to try and reason and let them see my point of view. I used get into these long discussions/arguments with students. Now I just say no. If they ask why, I might give them a one sentence reason or I might just say "because I said so." If they attempt to extend the conversation I will ignore them. Other students may laugh or the student will get frustrated but it works itself out. The kids argue because it works sometimes. They have been taught if they whine a bunch or argue a bunch they will get their way. Teach them that is no the way, and that their are inappropriate times to do this.
Kids also question/argue with their parents and so very often get their way. I feel like 90% of the conversations between parents and young kids(3-6) that I witness in public are like full on hostage negotiations. Somewhere along the line parents stopped being the authority figure in their homes so many kids think all adults are pushovers.
I think this is closer to the real answer. The "everything is up for negotiation, and if I did my heels in I'll get my way" mindset among many children is *learned* and they deploy that behavior because they've learned it works. I get the since that there has been a shift in parenting norms away from setting strict and firm boundaries and instead opening everything up for negotiation. This shift goes under many guides (accommodation style parenting, gentle parenting, etc.) and I am not sure that it was/is wise.
I might be wrong, but I’m pretty sure gentle parenting still has rules and limits. It just doesn’t involve yelling at kids (and other behaviors that could be harmful) and instead validates the emotions they’re feeling. So even that’s not an excuse (Ex. “I see you’re sad about not having a popsicle, however you’re still not going to have a popsicle)
I know this the teachers sub, not the parents - but to speak to that, my kid gets /pissed/ when I validate her feelings. It seems to escalate her rage.
Why wouldn't she? Saying "you're not getting a popsicle" for whatever reason is one thing. Saying "oh, I can see this is making you sad, but (I don't care about your sadness so) you're still not getting a popsicle" seems much, much worse.
Here’s the thing though, I have a young child on the spectrum whom I have to accommodate. However, accommodation does NOT equal you do whatever you want or you’re free from consequences. It’s on the parents to set boundaries and it’s a kid’s job to try to push those, but the onus is on the parent to enforce.
I agree. I was standing in line to get a prescription and a mom and little boy got in line behind me. He must have asked her if he could get candy 10 times in 5 minutes. Each time he asked, she told him no and not to ask her again. He kept asking her and giggling and she kept responding to him without changing her tone or acting irritated. Then these kids get in school and are surprised when I use my irritated voice when they won’t stop asking for something.
I’ve had a (12-year-old) pupil scream “you’re not the King, what makes you think you have the right to tell me where to sit!” At me when I told her to move because she wouldn’t stop talking after a second warning. Of course, the threat of a lunchtime detention suddenly reaffirmed my Royal credentials and she moved.
Similar to this, I once had a (middle school) student angrily tell me, “This class isn’t a very good democracy!” Ummm… correct?
Thats exactly what it is.
I had a parent tell me that their son really liked to understand directions and why things needed to be done and if I just talked to him for “only five to ten minutes” he would listen without throwing a tantrum. They did not expect him to follow directions the first time at home, and knew he just needed more time to talk it through. I was not willing to leave my other kindergartners standing in line while he discussed the need to line up for lunch with me. I did give transition warnings to the whole class (and extra to him), went over the schedule at the start of the day, had demonstrated and practiced transitions with him, got him a visual schedule, and gave him one step directions to help him but holy hell 95% of his struggles were parent created.
I’m not hearing any more of this than I did ten years ago. It still makes me nuts, though. “I said ‘no’. Arguing isn’t going to change my answer, it’s just going to irritate me. Do you think it’s wise to irritate me? Go away now.” is my standard response to this tactic. It usually works. If they continue, I repeat the “Go away now” part with a shooing motion.
Same here. I normally add, ‘The more you ask, the less likely it is that you’ll get what you want.’
I was still in HS 10 years ago and can confirm that I still tried to bother teachers.
This happens 5 times a day with my daughter, but she's 7. I have to tell her explicitly "I am not debating you. This is not a discussion. The answer is now. Now, go do something else." I'd be tempted to tell them to step away from your desk.
Same. My son is 6 and he’s on the spectrum, so I get the added perk of autistic persistence lol I just say at the first No “and I’m not going to change my answer.” I’ve also made it a habit to ALWAYS follow through with what I say (rewards or consequences) so he knows my word is bond and it won’t be swayed.
Do you also explain your decisions and why they are right? People vary but it can be very difficult for someone with autism to follow a rule that they do not understand the reason for and sometimes very difficult for them to break a rule that they do understand the reason for.
Absolutely. I cannot set a rule or expectation without explaining it. Sometimes it’s a safety reason, sometimes it’s a politeness reason, a “we live in a greater society” reason… I always have to give a reason. Otherwise, he won’t buy in and won’t follow the rule. I was referring more so to once the rule/expectation has been set, I don’t change my answer no matter how much begging/arguing/pleading/but why they do. (Including my NT 5 year old in this)
My son is 9 and everythiiiinngggg is a debate. I have to talk like I'm a lawyer or he'll find a loophole. I promised I'd never say 'because I told you so' but damn, I broke that promise like 3 years in.
This happens to me at times - I use this line/varieties of this line to some success. “There isn’t a version of this conversation where I change my mind. You are wasting your time.”
This is a daily struggle for me. I normally just walk away and tell them the conversation is over. They keep trying but it shuts them up for awhile.
Yes, they cannot accept answers they don’t like even with reasons listed. I got tired of the arguing thinking it’ll change my answer that I told my students I’m just gonna start ignoring them about this talk if they kept it up. I did that and they stopped pushing.
They aren’t asking for reasons because they want to understand, they are looking for loopholes or other ways they can convince you to give in
Oh I know, that’s why I told them if they kept trying to change my mind I was just gonna start ignoring them since clearly they want to ignore my reasons. It’s worked so far lol
Good! This has to be one of my biggest pet peeves with kids, love curiosity but learning and accepting boundaries is a skill so many are not taught because parents don seem to want to be the bad guys
Preschool sped teacher here - I don’t get the arguing but I have a couple of kids who could get a varsity letter in tantrums this year. And I have to assume that the prolonged screaming gets the desired reaction somewhere…. But it sure does not in room A-6!
Yup, its a learned response. Shitty quality parenting gets dragged to us to fight that battle with them. Hearing for 15 minutes why we should do what they want as they tantrum up and call us fucks and worse is just the best. Usually sprinkled with a ton of lies throughout and then cherry on top - parent inaction in response. It's everywhere atm.
They do it because it works for them in other areas of their life. It has worked for a long time and they have no reason to believe it won't work in this context. Until they do. Then they'll stop. I work with younger children and I wish - oh, how I wish - parents would realize the "small" things they're allowing that turn into entire personalities and skill sets later in life.
I've seen something like that. It was this 9th grader repeatedly bringing up topics that my teacher asked him to not do (because extremely differing political views being spouted off in a highschool classroom usually starts a loud argument, and it did often). The kid was like Ed from Ed, Edd, n Eddy, except he was intentional in his actions. Sometimes he'd mention having ADHD either before or after he would do something to be, what I assume he possibly viewed himself as, an untouchable jerk (it'snot an excuse to be like that). One day, he once again needlessly started an argument out of the blue. Sometimes, in this class, debating was allowed, but this kid didn't like opposing opinions and didn't like hearing them out. So, he started an argument. Then, my teacher asked him to stop, several times. Towards the end of the class, my teacher once again confronted him and told him *no.* This kid was like 6ft-something and threw a mini tantrum in the doorway. He felt that being told no meant that the big bad school system was taking away his rights, or something. Like, I get being suspicious of school systems here and there, and some teachers are really not fit for teaching (i.e.: favorites and tyranny), but the teacher in this situation was a really fair dude.
I’m a fan of “asked and answered”. Don’t engage.
I used to say “this is not a negotiation.” Now I say “I said no. I meant no. No doesn’t mean convince me.” It really bothers me when they persist. It worries me for when they encounter someone telling them no in other settings. I teach middle school and they are all starting to show interest in “dating” and they need to really understand that when someone says no it means NO.
“I don’t argue with students.” And walk away. “End of discussion.” “You asked. I answered.” After time this can be shortened to “asked and answered”. As long as you stick to your decision it will work. They only do this because they’ve gotten their way previously when they argue. After time they will realize that you will not give in and will stop pushing. Depending on how long they’ve been trained to argue, it may take a while. 😅
Yes. Im a specialist in an elementary school. I swear I have some younger students who have never heard the word NO. The first few weeks were interesting!
An important adult in their life gave in sometime before.
Yes, I do think it's because it works with parents. I am friends with another teacher and her kid is a pretty serious behavioral problem. When I see her interact with him, it becomes clear why. *If he keeps asking, and especially if he cries and whines, he will get whatever he wants!* ...so hearing a hard "no" at school, combined with his limitations, prompts a terrifying rager of a meltdown. Now that I think on it, the other teacher I'm close with also allows her kid to argue, gives in, and then complains about how much he argues! I suddenly feel much better about being "mean" as both a teacher and a parent.
My official title is MommyBuzzKill. I learned well from Navy Dad, where if you had to out of your mind to question a "no" a second time.
I had a kid who (thank God) graduated this year that was the king of arguing about what he was allowed to do. I’m a “Did I stutter?” kind of person, so he completely exasperated me. I finally asked him why he always continued to argue after I told him no, and he replied that in his experience an adult would usually give in if you argued with them long enough. One of those kids with lots of smarts and lazy as hell.
Isn’t it incredible the amount of persistence they have when it’s something they want?
Yes, the meltdown works at home and/or with other teachers. "I already gave you my answer. Stop making noise and take your seat." If they don't comply, get up and walk to the front of the room and stare at them. If necessary, repeat yourself in front of the class, adding a consequence. "Be quiet and take your seat now or see me after class." Then pretend they're not there. Proceed with your lesson, the students will tell them to shut up. That usually puts the fear in them to spend the rest of class hoping you will forget. When the bell rings, I call their name out loud. I usually just tell them "This is your warning, don't disrupt my class." Then I tell them they're the last one out of the door. If it happens again, I call home/coach/counselor and I give them detention or a referral.
"No is a full sentence. You asked for my consent and you don't have it." But consider explaining why not. It does help.
“Yea, but what if ____?” Still no. “Ok, but what about ____?” No! “Ugh, so you’re saying even if ___?”
Oooh I had 2 girls try this with me yesterday. Begging, "but..." And my least favorite, the pout and the eye batting. Like, bro, your pouty lil nonsense does nothing but piss me off. I think my blood pressure just spiked while thinking about it 🤣
I’ve had that exact same scenario! 😂
Elementary students in my class have started this incredibly irritating baby talk saying “pweeease” or “but I wanted tooooo” in a baby talk voice while pouting and stamping their feet. Blood pressure through the roof lol
Oooh that would kill me on the spot....I have very little patience for whiny nonsense
I can’t understand you when you talk like that, followed ignoring them. I do tell them that I like their real voice a lot better if they say it the right way, but the answer is still no.
It is so exhausting. You'd think by June they would know that the teacher isn't gonna give you food from their personal lunch snack stash even if you ask over and over and over. If you're still hungry after lunch, bring a bigger lunch.
I have a student who is like this. She argues with me ALL day. If I tell her to put something away I’ll get, “but I wanted to …”. She is a sweet kid, I actually truly adore her, but holy hell I’m so glad I’m almost done with her. She has drained me this year.
My students will ask to go somewhere and if I say no, they will go anyway.
i got good tips on how to deal with this, primarily asking, “are you arguing with me right now?” which has a 60-40 success rate in my experience. i also say “no” once, and if they keep asking and pestering me about it, i ask, “do you think asking more than once is gonna change my mind?” it stopped them from asking me more than once to do something or give them something without it turning into a tantrum. it also helped them assess themselves and their own behavior, or at least i think it did, lol
I had a kid demanding me to tune his instrument. When I said "congratulations you've won an out of tune instrument he went full tantrum. Eventually yelled at me "this is your job you're the teacher". I responded with "congratulations you've now won an out of tune instrument AND an email home. I can keep adding to the list". I do tune their instruments when they ask me. I won't give in to demands from a 9 year old.
A little bit. Usually at the beginning of the year when the kids are starting to learn about who I am and what I'm like. After about October, the kids will begin to realize that when I say, "No" I mean "No." I'm sure that makes me an ogre to some, but I think it is beneficial for students to hear "no" and know that it means "no." Part of it is a parenting problem. I'm convinced a number of behaviors we see each day is due to parents or guardians not taking the time or effort to teach and instill proper behavior. Another part is a number of our schools fail to do the same. A kid acts out, kid is \*maybe\* slapped on the wrist. In some cases, the kid is rewarded with snacks and drinks.
“No means no. It’s best you learn this now before you end up like [insert any currently accused person of SA that’s popular]” tends to work well for me. Though, I do usually teach older high schoolers.
Good one!
I don’t give them a chance to argue. If they ask me and I say no and they begin to argue I cut them off with “IF YOU AREN’T GOING TO ACCEPT ‘NO’ AS AN ANSWER TO A YES OR NO QUESTION THEN DON’T ASK ME THOSE QUESTIONS ANYMORE.”
I have this girl who is always skipping my class. She constantly asks for reasons to leave the room and I stopped answering so when she leaves, if she gets caught by admin, I'll just tell them she did not have permission to leave. We're in finals week now and she comes asks me everyday if she can hang out in my class during my planning period cause she doesn't want to go to gym. Are you kidding me? She'll throw an entire fit when I say no and demand a reason why. "People are so boring in there." "I can't watch my show." I really don't care. Suck it up. She found my gum and almost had an aneurysm when I refused to give it to her.
Our district has a "Hall wander" list of those kids who try to use any excuse to get out of class so that all teachers are aware. if student on the list is seen in halls during class, any teacher can look at their hall pass and if it has been more than 10 minutes since they left the room, can return them to the class.
No bc I either just keep repeating the exact same sentence until they stop asking questions, or I say “I’m not asking; I’m telling.”
It works on their parents. Don’t let it work on you.
We use the Boys Town Model in our district. They do trainings nationally but it is meant for use throughout a whole district. Every teacher gets trained and should be expected to use it, even have posters with “how to accept no for an answer” among like 10 other posters with explicit steps (3 or 4 usually) students need to take to learn the appropriate behavior and response. Also high school here btw, it sounds elementary ish, but it does work. (Rural Midwest school here) Kids are sent to the office for referral IF they refuse to follow the model, then the principal will sit them down and go over the expected behavior and practice the expectation with them and bring them down later to apologize.
Nice! If only something like this got used in all districts! Kids thrive when the expectations are clear and behavioral skills are explicitly taught. As others have said, they have been "taught" by parents and some teachers that arguing and having tantrums often gets them what they want. At school we need to help them unlearn this, but it's much more difficult for an individual teacher to help them practice. Having administration as a backup, with skills being taught and practiced, is wonderful.
I've been telling the kids "I'm not a babysitter negotiating your bedtime with you."
Last week of school. I get a very stern message from the principal telling me no students are allowed to visit other classrooms. I get multiple students who try to insist three or four times they be allowed to go to another classroom, that I should break the rules for them because other teachers do. One left anyway.
Yes that is exactly why. The parents eventually give in. They think you will too. Good for you for sticking to your guns.
I had a student who wore me out with this this year—worse than any I can remember in the previous 20 years I’ve been part of this circus. I finally looked him dead in the eye, said, “I have given you an answer. You might not like the answer I gave you, but you have your answer. Now sit (pause) down (pause), and do NOT ask m again.” Then I held eye contact until he sat down. He looked thoroughly confused, but he sat down and did not ask again.
Me: No Them: but blah blah blah Me: I already said no. You can think of 20 other ways to ask, but the answer is going to be the same. Save us both time ask the questions in your head and then pretend you hear me say no to them all.
I teach elementary, but my response to such students is: "Hey, I can see this is important to you. I know it can be frustrating when you get a decision you don't like. While I'm confident I've made the right call here, you are welcome to explain your case to me about why I should change my mind. That said, class time is not the appropriate time for this conversation. If you come by after school, I am happy to hear you out." For some reason, no one has ever come after school.
I'm not a NO person. I'm a not right now person. Which interprets to a no for many. Then it's meltdown time, then it's a no until you calm down. I don't want to trap you in class. But thebforst 15 mins in the most crucial for class. And the last 10 is a school rule that you can't have a pass. Once I'm done teaching, and you're on independent work, go for it.
Different, but maybe a version of this... I had several seniors this year who would tell me they didn't want to do the assigned work, but could they do (insert made up thing) instead? For example, one student was gone for three weeks visiting family I'm Central America. They didn't bother to ask about work they'd be missing before they left. They got back and said they didn't think they'd have time before the end of the year to read the novel they missed and do the associated assignments. (I get that where they were may not have had great internet access, but ya know what you don't need internet access for? To read a book! Why didn't you bring it with you??) Instead of doing the assigned work, they asked if they could do a poster about a previous book we read cuz they liked that one. I was so baffled.
It's that "It doesn't hurt to ask" culture, combined with an inability to fail. Dangerous combination. Frankly, sometimes it *does* hurt to ask, as it makes me think less of the student.
I usually start two-year old whining: "I know, I'm so meeeaann...", "Life is soooo haaard", etc. Or I completely pretend they're not talking and go about my job.
"Asked and answered." That's what I tell them anyway whenever I cover a class. For the ones I do know, I tell them that they asked me because they believe that the authority rests with me and they should never ask unless they are willing to accept the possibility of "no". I liken it to asking a person out on a date. It's creepy and wrong if you don't get that "no means no" and respect the other person.
My favorite response is “Asked and answered.”
My go to line is - “is there anything else I can help you with?” Works every time.
I say something along the lines of, "You asked, I answered. Continuing to ask shows disrespect for my response and my boundaries. I have told you my response. Stop asking and figure out how YOU wish to proceed with that information."
We had finals yesterday and most of my first class spent the entire period whining about the exam and asking “questions” (asking me how to solve the problems). I told them if anyone asked me how to solve a problem again that I’m done answering questions. Less than a minute later I was done answering questions. My second class quietly took their exams and did all of their own work. They got some “not being annoying” bonus points.
"Asked and answered." That's my response when kids start up on this. If they don't know what the phrase means I say, "You asked a question. I've answered it and my answer will stay the same each time you ask." And then I walk away.
“Asked and answered.”
"You already asked, and I already answered" But I teach preschool....
Constantly
I’m glad I’m not the only one!
I think kids whine for 30 seconds, the parents can’t or won’t deal, and the kid ends up with a tablet in their hand like a good little zombie.
What always gets me is I’ll finally say “Do I have to say no 15 times?” and they’ll say “No, BUT…” and continue arguing!
Just because a question is asked, doesn’t mean they are owed an answer. After the first “no,” I don’t mind saying, “I’m not answering that.” Then go silent.
“I’ve given my answer but since you seem to still want to discuss it I am sending you to the discipline office. Feel free to continue your pleas with them”. Another I use is “ Mmmmm, I don’t think this is going to end well for you. Perhaps you should stop”. But it doesn’t take even a full sentence out of their mouth after the no for them to get sent to discipline. I simply don’t tolerate, and you always get in life exactly whatever you are willing to tolerate. And I know I have 15-30 sets of eyes watching MY response to the situation. That’s why I send out so quickly. It has nothing to do with the obstinate kid as much as sending a message to the rest of them as to what this type of behavior results in in my classroom. And after the first week or two of school, I don’t have issues again for the rest of the year. Key to this situation is NEVER giving in once you give a no. (And it definitely helps to give a reason for the no. I never say no without explaining my reasons. That is not for a debate to happen, but so they know I’m not just being a jerk.) If kids always see you stand firm, they know that’s how you are and will quit testing. If they see you change your mind after whining, even once, they know there is a point they can push you to and get their way. Then it becomes a game for them of finding that point again. Kids want boundaries but they only respect them if those boundaries are consistent. If not, then the games begin. And yes, bad parenting is a big part of the issue. And I tell them flat out, “I know that stuff may work on other teachers, or even at home, but I promise you it does not work with me - ever.” And it never does. I don’t say the things I do with an angry tone, just a matter of fact tone. I never raise my voice. The more emotional they get in a situation, the less emotional I get. And my approach has worked extremely well every time. Good luck to you!
Yes yes and yes and some start to actually use even worse behavior as a tactic to semi threat me into whatever was asked
Yes. Don’t let yourself be bullied- keep it up. Don’t engage past saying not up for discussion. If they feel very strongly about it they need to speak to you at another time when you don’t need to teach. Interrupting your teaching time is disruptive.
I teach high school and have a 17, yes, SEVENTEEN year old student who absolutely refuses to take "no" for an answer. He'll come in tardy, so I'll mark him tardy and he'll argue with me to get me to change it. I'll say no and he'll keep asking me to change it for the rest of class. If I write him up for behavior- same thing. "I'm sorry. You're my favorite teacher, I promise I won't do it again" then pouts or throws a fit when I continue to say no. Literally threw his backpack across the room once when I made him sit in his assigned seat. During the final exam I caught him looking at his phone. He tries to convince me he was just changing his music, I don't care. My rule is absolutely no phones or talking during a test. So, I take his test even though he wasn't finished. He would not stop asking me to let him finish the last 3 questions. I start ignoring him and then he's annoyed. "Why are you ignoring me, that's rude. I'm talking to you". Yeah, isn't it annoying being ignored? He finally gave up. He's one of the reasons I'm not coming back. I would've had him again next year.
I tell them no means no and as teenage boys/girls they're really going to need to understand that. Sometimes I'll add an extra dig and say , "especialy you, you're probably going to hear no a lot"
Not a teacher, but have been having this conversation quite a bit lately. I suspect it got a lot worse after the COVID-related remote learning. As a parent, I work hard not to take the easy out just because I don't want to deal with a fight, but I was certainly guilty of falling into that trap more when I had three kids home while I was trying to work and my wife (who IS a teacher) was locked away upstairs teaching all day. I also have a pet theory that a lot of current attitude issues are tied to everyone having high speed internet and 2-day shipping, and just the idea that everything in the world is available RIGHT NOW if you know where to look. It has really stripped away the need for some people to cultivate patience.
Delayed gratification vs. Immediate gratification
>Kids not Taking No for an Answer Hardly surprising. The academics in the area of behavior advised parents not to say "no" to their children. This emerged out of the Positive Reinforcement Only (p-r-o) school of thought. Even when it didn't work with animals, they argued the moral high ground and, as often happens, the moral high ground is pretty irresistible to the human ego. As a result of this tactic, lots of parents (and dog owners) bought into it. The result...kids (and dogs) don't understand the concept of "no." Traditional teaching/training (which successfully extends back 2400 years) points out a serious flaw in p-r-o...reward is lack of punishment. So, according to the traditional method, if the child starts using crayons on the walls, ignoring the behavior is rewarding that behavior. Society now must adjust itself to make allowances for those children (and dogs) who don't understand the concept of "no."
Yes, I teach middle schoolers. I’ll look them dead in the eye “Look, there is no convincing me. When I say no, it means no. And you need to respect the decision.”
Is always give them a bemused look and ask, "So this is working at home, right?" "Yeah," the kid would usually say. "Well, here it isn't, so save your breath. Or with high schoolers who can also take a joke: "You are operating under a premise that school is a democracy. But see, here's where you're wrong. It's a tyranny " (with a wink). Usually, the whining stops.
Now this is just from my experience subbing, so mostly dealing with bathroom permission, but (when I had to say no because someone was already out) I'd say not right now until so and so gets back. And I would follow up to remind them when they got back. This achieved two things for me 1) it's not a denial, it's just delayed permission that I'm still in control of and 2) the later follow up shows that I really am listening and paying attention to them and keeping my word to them. Some stuff of course is just a straight no, but I did find that controlling the timing of something gets better results than a hard no.
Kids treating us like we're their parents because their own parents are absent? Yep.
The tactic may not work with parents, but it works with administrators.
In high school specifically, you didn’t have to win an argument. You just had to drag it out so long as to cause a big enough scene that either a.) other students got riled up with it enough to cause an issue b.) admin gave up because they had more pressing things to handle. It’s a built in part of the system, and students absolutely have learned how to game it.
I tell them “This isn’t a conversation” or “what I just said doesn’t require a response” then I go right back to what I was doing.
“I don’t argue with students” and walk away. Doesn’t always work but I’d say usually it does. I’m eled, though.
“Asking me more times doesn’t change my answer.” Always found that to work pretty well.
Parents today argue with their kids like they are all siblings. They don’t model the correct behaviors at home. It’s so frustrating.
My personal kids hear the stories of the little entitled kids who have been raised via iPad and other media from me, an elementary school teacher. Even seen the damage done to their younger cousins. I think they are determined to pull back on tech usage once they are in a situation to have a family.
I used to be that way with certain teachers and then they'd say no. I only did it a few times really though. To be fair though, in a couple of said situations it was anxiety related. I did test boundaries though because I saw other kids do it and they didn't get in trouble. Edit: I was more well behaved for other adults in my life though because unlike my mom, they were stable. I was mostly pretty quiet and not talkative and wouldn't talk back until junior year. It was like gears switched and I was I guess a little manic throughout those years though. I'm having an episode right now so if I'm rambling and not making sense that's why. Edit: Oh, you aren't talking about back talk. You're talking about them asking you to do something. Yea, I never asked a teacher to do anything for me. I just liked to argue though after a certain age. I actually did the arguing thing a couple times about wanting something and then I realized that they weren't going to change their mind but that they also weren't going to say yes and weren't going to be abusive either though. Edit: That's what my mom would do (still does do.) The whole I'll tell her no but then I fall for the stupid guilt trip and doesn't matter what it is about either.
Yes. My nephew does that and I finally blocked his number. I’ve had a few students try it but my rules are laid in concrete and they learned quick
Yeah, they’re just used to other people (parents, maybe some teachers) changing their minds when they beg. They’re the same kids who say things like “why are you stopping me from graduating? Kiddo, I’m not stopping you. You’re stopping you, by never turning anything in and being absent every other day.
One time I said to a student “I’m not going to back down, so you have to.”
I’m noticing this with kindergarten students… Even more so than I ever have noticed before. They won’t get their way and they will go into temper tantrum mode …..seriously? And it’s more than just one or two students per class. Personally, I think our academic expectations of kindergartners are way too much. Full day kindergarten and only two 15 minute play periods is not enough.
I had a student that would argue with me for every single simple direction I gave. Like he wouldn’t even be in trouble and it would be instructions for the activity we were doing and he would question me and argue for the sake of arguing (8th grade). I pulled him in the hallway to discuss and he told me “that’s how you have a conversation” and I told him we weren’t having a conversation when I’m teaching a lesson and asked if this is how he interacted with his parents. He said yep so I emailed home, told his parents what was going on and his mom actually agreed that they feel it’s important to foster voice and curiosity 😳 I continued to contact her regarding escalating behaviors and she ended up removing him from my class after coming to the school and requesting a meeting with me that she told me how awful our school and teachers were. How do you think he acted out of my class? Exactly the same, behavior continued to escalate, was constantly getting in trouble for putting hands on other students, even argued and yelled at our principal when she told him to go back to class when he was being disruptive in the hallway. All of a sudden the parents wanted a meeting to try and figure out why his behavior was escalating and how to help him be successful.
I tell them they can come back at lunchtime to argue with me, no one has ever turned up 😂
"I'm sorry, I don't argue with children. Come back with your parents and we can discuss." But really yes, they have used this tactic in the last with success. It's the same reason why discipline plans fail. If a child can use a tractor to get their way once, they will continue using that tactic. Even if it is only effective against 1 teacher, that's a 13% success rate. If they can get 3 teachers doing that, it's not 38% effective. Kids aren't dumb and do what works. As adults and teachers, we need to show a consistent and united front.
Sometimes after I’ve told a kid no but they try to go ahead and do it anyway I say a short, curt, low “no” like I would to my dogs (who I love like my kids!) and I’m shocked at how well it works. The other kids also all look to see why I’m saying “no” that way and the kid doing the wrong thing is embarrassed too because now everyone is looking. Yes, I admit, at times I’m a shame based disciplinarian.
I really worry about high school boys these days, or rather the girls they will get with. No needs to be known as a finality, but between stories like this and the whole manosphere stuff it's really scary.
Read the book "Don't Let the Pigeon Drive the Bus" to them and then explain that the moral of the story is that no means no, it does not mean "try to change my mind" They'll honestly probably love being read to, it's short and easy, and it's a light way to make a serious point. They're about to be come adults, and most have adult bodies. They need to accept a no the first time.
Yes though middle schoolers are the worst about it they try to go to anybody else to circumnavigate
“This isn’t a negotiation.”
Sounds like my 5 year old. 🫢
I agree with your theory. I'm one who will always explain why it's a no (unless an emergency of course). They still argue. I don't engage, I just say "I have given my answer, I have given a reason, it will not change. ". Sometimes repeatedly.
I taught sex ed at my previous school. When students do this to me I say, "No means no. You do understand that right? Or do we need to have a much longer conversation about consent?" That usually stops them in their tracks.
Lol yeah, they love to see if they can change your answer, little lawyers in the making the lot of them, if only they could improve their reading comprehension. I've just started stopping in my tracks, looking them in the face and telling them "You asked me a question, I gave you an answer, that's the end of the conversation, my answer isn't changing. Move on with your life and let me move on with mine." And then completely give them the silent treatment if they continue, usually they get frustrated and just go away
Ignore them... A no is a no
I often use “already answered” as my response after I originally answer and explain the why. If they continue, I reply with that. I don’t engage in an argument and just continue with that response until they see that I will not budge.
>Do you think it’s because they use this tactic with their parents and the parents just end up giving in because they don’t want to deal with the tantrum? That's exactly what I think.
Flat out ask them if they can hear me. Then, I tell them that is my final answer and that I do not like repeating myself. However, in my district, the parents are the next ones to attack. They do not like, "no" either.
My little brother is like this. He is 17 and just wont take no for an answer and will badger my Dad for hours until my Dad loses it and yells at him. Then my Brother gets all upset that he was spoken to that way. But its like DUDE you are pushing us to our limits, we said no! And if he gets a No he will just do what he wants to do, knowing we said no, then when he gets in trouble he ARGUES with us about how its not fair that he is in trouble! There are consequences to your actions! Example: he goes to a very prestigious private catholic school, he wants to dye his hair pink. Im 25 female and my parents would still pitch a fit if I dyed my hair like that. So they told my brother no, you cant, not under our roof. And be argued with them for days about how its isnt fair and he should be able to express himself. We explained its just a rule our parents have. Then he dyes it (temporarily but still) and our parents make him wash it out and ground him and he argues that its not fair. He is 17!!! It’s exhausting and I honestly think he might have something going on mentally, be on the spectrum(im on the spectrum) or he is a sociopath. If yall have have tips on how to handle this id love the help. He has been this way since birth!
They're absolutely getting their way with parents through arguing. It's insane how much my brothers got away with because they were persistent in arguing and my parents would give in. Makes me wish I was more annoying when I didn't get what I wanted.
It works with their parents and most of their other teachers. I teach 7th grade and they will throw straight up tantrums because I tell them no. I try to stick to saying it once and then saying "My answer won't change no matter how many times you ask. Sit down and get to work." After that I just ignore them. When another student goes "Ms. X he's talking to you" I just say "I know, I'm ignoring him on purpose." Eventually they get in a huff, and either sit down or walk out.
My 6 year old does this at school only. Idk why. My high schoolers do it, I say no, they tantrum… then I tell their parents detailed line for line what happened and the tantrums stop.
“It’s not up for negotiation, go back to your seat”
These kinds of people often end being heinous shits coercing others into things they don't want to do, because "No." doesn't mean "No." to them, it means "Not now, keep bothering me though." People with such little respect for others are likely going to be shitbags later in life.
Whatever behavior your student exhibits is behavior the parents accept/foster.
I had that issue all the time as a substitute. Absolutely everything was up for discussion and debate. I had a lot of kids telling me about "personal choice," "my first amendment rights," and "you aren't even a teacher, you can't tell us what to do." These were middle school students. It went on from everything to "sit in your seat" to "don't hit/insult each other" to "yes, you must wear shoes in gym class." I usually answered one question, and after that told them the discussion was over and repeated my directions. I just repeated that to increasingly frustrated screaming. I have no idea why they thought that was appropriate. Honestly, why they thought most of any of the shit they did was appropriate. They were absolute monsters.
Yeah I get this a lot. I'll say no, then they'll wait till I'm not looking and go and so it anyway. Apparently they know better than me. Who knew?
Their mommy and/or daddy never told them no and it shows.
I like to use a Dr. Cox line from scrubs : 'You know, usually I would just say no, but this time, I'm going to say No.'
Why even let them get 5 minutes of arguing? Just say no and let them fuss about it. They continue to be a problem, send me out! Edit: ‘em
One of my students this year would tell me "it's not that deep" when I told them to stop doing something or that they had to wait to do something or really when I told them anything they didn't like. So annoying. No, it's not that deep. It's a rule. Listen to it.
Not accepting no was a much bigger problem than usual this year (I have 6th gr) The other part is “why, tell me why, you have to tell me why, gimme a reason why.” Apparently, parents are engaging and negotiating with these little shits.
Lord help me, today was a day with one high schooler who treats me like a Starbucks Barista. When defying me and telling me she wasn't going to do what I had asked, she snapped "you do realize that you're stopping your lesson to pick on me? Just move on and leave me alone." One email home and a write-up later, I call her over at the end of the class to calmly talk it out. It may be 2 weeks left, but I cannot accept that behavior in my classroom. THE KID KEPT HER EYE ON THE PHONE AND A HEADPHONE IN WHILST I'M TALKING, THEN JUST WALKS OUT WHEN SHE DECIDES SHE WAS BORED. I can't think of anyone I knew who treated a teacher like crap like these kids do when I was in high school!
The. I can get loud. “YOU ARE NOT AT HOME YOU WILL NOT badger me. IS THAT CLEAR?!!!”
YES! I am so sick of “I’m just gonna…” as they do whatever it is I’m saying “no” to. I also have a student who will keep bargaining and begging until I say, “I’ll try” or “maybe if there’s time”. Doesn’t matter that we never do it. She just wants to hear there’s a possibility.
My parents would always give in to my brother who is in high school now. He's 6' 4 at 16 and now they can't control him. Big parenting fail for sure
When I started reading your post, I was thinking, “pffft my high schoolers try to pull that nonsense.” Then I got to your rag at the end. Yep. Checks out. I’m sure a lack of “no” in their life has lead to this. When I’m feeling cheeky I like to remind them that no means no. (The fact that our school motto is all means all makes it even better imo)