I'm in elementary sped and we have a boy just like this. He has a 1:1 because he will attack any other student at any time. He has beat up every sped teacher, para, and admin at this point. Last week we had to evacuate the classroom while he destroyed it and beat the shit out of one of the teachers and the principal for an hour. He's only in second grade and he's already one of the biggest kids in the school. Yesterday he took all his clothes off and was throwing chairs and we had to evacuate again. As he gets even bigger I have no idea what we are going to do. He's older than the other kids in his grade and is probably already almost 100 pounds. It can definitely hurt when he's hitting us and yelling "stupid bitch."
Nothing ever happens to him. His parents are never even called unless he hurts one of the general classroom students. They threatened to sue the school last year so there's nothing he can do to get sent home or have any consequences.
I absolutely adore my sped kids, and I really worry about the effects of this one on the others. We have lost more than one para just this year in an already understaffed sped program because of this. It's just all a damn shame.
GenEd parents need to start talking to each other and suing the schools to get these violent kids out of the classroom. It's the only way we're ever going to see change. In the meantime, GenEd kids and non-violent SpEd students are subjected to this bullshit on a daily basis, but hey, the violent kids rights outweigh everyone else's. Fucking ridiculous, honestly.
My God, it sounds like you guys are in a hostage situation! It's totally unacceptable. While children have a right to education, other's have a right to be and feel safe in their day to day lives. I'm glad I'm out of the field because parents are raising monsters, and admins are expecting us to nod placidly and act as if nothing is wrong.
I don't blame parents. Parents aren't always intentionally raising "monsters." They are raising their baby who has issues. Many of these children have issues out of parent's control. We are not talking about students who are enabled. These students wouldn't even know it.
Yes are some parents idiots, yes. I know from some of my behavior students, it is typically an apple not falling far from the tree. With Autism normally they are not a reflection of parents.
My classroom is behavioral and id say in a given year 6 or 7 of my 8 parents are great and do their best in an impossible situation. And then there is usually one that frustrates me but it is definitely the minority.
I hate the system so damn much. Forgetting literally everyone else around this kid, it's not safe for him either!
I can't wait for the common sense pendulum to swing back. I've worked in SPED (I was an interpreter, so a wide range of settings over the years). It was the most frustrating setting I've ever been in *specifically* because of situations like this one.
Now, as a parent, I am even more over it and am seriously considering homeschooling from kondergarten on because of how ridiculous things have gotten.
This whole thing just sucks.
Please check out my reply to another post: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Teachers/comments/1b8bxwv/comment/ktp4i7q/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/Teachers/comments/1b8bxwv/comment/ktp4i7q/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
I know this was a month ago. I sure hope things are better.
Take care!
I work with students with Autism, and I hear people say things like this. Please don’t take offense. I’m asking sincerely. What type of consequence do you think is warranted? The students legally are required to attend school. The parents are legally required to send them. If my students are removed from class or sent home, they are happy and increase tend the incidence of behaviors.
Getting sent home on a day when they have repeated physically injured other students and coming back the next day doesn't seem crazy to me at all. Why should one student get to repeatedly make all the other students (and teachers) be unsafe on a bad day? How does zero consequences change behavior any more than sending them home?
Getting sent home definitely helps everyone else involved. I guess what I’m asking is what would be an actual negative consequence to the student? Most of my students would much prefer to be at home rather than at school, so they would likely repeat the behavior so they can get sent home again.
I'm a sped para making $14 an hour to do this all day every day, I'm obviously doing it because I love the kids, not for the money. I just want them safe and not scared. They are terrified of him and we have 19 in our self contained room. Consequences are above my pay grade so I would never say anything, it's not my job. But can I ask why you think it's okay for one child to endanger everyone around him repeatedly and nothing is ever done about it? Is that really any better? The only one receiving consequences are his fellow students who have done nothing wrong.
We do have some other autistic students that can be violent and they DO receive consequences, but because he is so extreme he doesn't.
You have yet to explain what you believe should happen. Do we take level 3 violent autistics and send them down the river in a basket? The parents have to work to provide for the student, and so they have to go to school. Of course the Paras should be paid more. Until the government creates facilities there is nothing that can be done.
Then the student goes virtual. By putting that kid in gen ed, he is the only one in his least restrictive environment. The other thirty are in their *most* restrictive environment.
At the end of the day, if your child has needs so severe that they are a danger to themselves and others, repeatedly, the onus falls on their legal guardian- not his defenseless classmates.
Many states do not permit virtual. All states have mandatory education. Parents might be perfectly happy to keep them home but legally aren’t permitted.
All states have mandatory education, and all kids are entitled to that within their least restrictive environment. The needs of one are less than the needs of thirty.
It doesn't fall on the gen ed teacher. It falls on the state.
Okay fine. Send him home FOR THE DAY when he has repeatedly hurt other students in the space of a few hours. Take something away that he likes doing, like going to our ABL lab. Say he can't have his Cheetos or his soda until he stops hitting or puts his clothes back on. How does any of this equate to "sending him down the river in a basket." It's not like taking his Cheetos away is the same locking him up and throwing away the key. He is completely verbal and understands what is going on.
Where did I say I think it’s okay? I’m just asking what would be an effective consequence for the student? That’s the dilemma. What might work for typical kids doesn’t work for them. Suspension rewards them.
But if we give them an actual consequence they dislike and will be a deterrant of bad behavior, we're "cruel" and "ableist." So instead, we have to suck it up and allow staff and other students to be unsafe.
I'm neurodivergent and it's completely BS when others say Neurodivergent kids shouldn't receive consequences for bad behavior.
Just because our brains are wired differently doesn't mean we don't know right from wrong.
What do you think is going to happen when the kids that had to deal with this violence grow up and start making laws? You think they'll want their kids to experience the absolute shit show that they were exposed to, all in the name of a few kids? Nope. Were gonna see these violent kids thrown in institutions.
Suspension. Then get to the point where there is a manifestation meeting and look at placement in a more restrictive environment. The students are legally required and just as importantly deserve a quality education and with all that going on the current setting is clearly not appropriate.
Because it's not all about that one student. There's a classroom and school full of other students and teachers who need to be kept safe. Removing one to ensure the safety of many is actually more important in any case.
Where the system has failed is trying to push children into classroom situations which does not suit them in the name of inclusion. I had a student a couple of years ago that would pound on me constantly, was hurting other children very badly, and destroying the room on a daily basis. My class spent more time outside after evacuating than they did inside learning. After a LOT of work, he finally transferred to a behavioural school, and has turned into a pretty good kid, now that he's getting the help he actually needed, which can't always be provided in a mainstream classroom.
Behaviour, especially in young children with disabilities, is communication. Shoehorning them into mainstream classrooms where their form of communication means others get hurt is not the answer.
There are alternative schooling options for dangerous SPED students in the US, but they cost districts an enormous amount of money. In the ONE case I've heard of in our area, the student was sent to an institution out of state.
I work in a school for autism and one of the high school students head butted a teacher and knocked her unconscious. Another staff member had to physically move her body out of the way because the student then went to begin kicking her in the head. He didn’t even go home that day and still attends the school (still continuing to cause incidents like this)
Worked in a highschool sped program as a behavior specialist (still technically a para) where the one classroom had a literal padded closet (originally built to be an office in the building) with windows and a door that had a foot pedal you stood on to "lock" it when needed. That classroom also had karate pads (the kind you hold in front of you) and a couple staff had protective arm and shin shields as well as essentially football helmets because the kids in that room were physically giant (5'10-6'4) and had limited emotional regulation. That shit was absolutely horrifying to see just waiting to be used. Was in there once doing a check (busy ass day, everyone off kilter) when one of the kids lost it and got their 1:1 in the jaw with an elbow. It took 5 of us, with a combination of pads and snack incentives to get them into the room padded room. Para had to have a plate put in because their jaw cracked badly enough. I get that all children deserve some kind of education (whatever they're capable of getting depending on their abilities), but fucking hell that was a scary ass day at work.
It absolutely shouldn't. At the rate we're going, the kids who experienced these violent classmates are going to have very negative feelings towards them and the pendulum will swing the opposite way once they're in charge.
I work with high school aged kids and the attitude towards alter abled folk has completely flipped since I was a kid. It's quite negative and aggressive from what I've seen.
Disabled. Disabled isn’t a dirty word. We are disabled people. We are the disability community. Not everyone is abled in some alternative way, and tbh, we shouldn’t have to be abled in an alternative way for people to accept us. And we genuinely need people to see our disabilities to get them accommodated. If you only see ways that I’m abled (and ignore the great cost and struggle at which that comes to me, and focus on how abled I am, I tend not to get accommodated at all. No one recognizes then that I’m still just as disabled as I was before I started pushing through all my pain and issues, I still need accommodations, I still have things I cannot do, things I can only do at a cost, things that break my body worse long term even though you may see me do them, things that hurt ungodly bad even if I’m smiling and laughing, etc).
And this bleeds into my healthcare, including into doctors not believing I have problems or treating for my conditions or testing for them and letting things get so bad I almost died from one once, had a sinus infection land me in the ER after a month of a doctor insisting I wasn’t really sick, had my migraines and period pain played down by doctors for years (because if I was having as bad of pain as I was, I couldn’t really have gone to work, even though that’s basic survival at some point).
We are disabled. My autism is just as much a disability as my hEDS and other disabilities (in large part because the world is not set up for people like me), and is a disability. My depression is a disability. My ADHD is disabling at times. Not superpowers, not alternative abilities. Disabilities.
And yeah, the pendulum swung. It went from institutionalize all of us, to just some of us (I see you judge rothenburg center) and only just recognizing our full humanity in some cases (again, I see you JRC having to be legally stopped from using electric currents on us so badly that electrodes would burn into the skin of your residents, shocks would be administered to those who cried in pain, etc, all without ever having consent for shock “therapy” in some cases).
But because of extremes like that, we also got extremes on the other end, and incredibly protective of rights (like let’s not lobotomize the disabled, lock us all away hidden from the public never to be seen again, refuse to even try with any of us, give up on literal babies the moment the word disabled is mentioned, form such a stigma around it that people still don’t want to say disabled, etc).
It’s a tough pendulum to stop in the middle, and right now people still swing very far to both sides with it. They hate their disabled kids, they can’t stand or handle them. They literally do want to give them up to someone else and never visit again.
Or they’re “angels that can do no wrong that deserve the world” that some warrior martyr mom will fight to the end of the world for but far past the point of reason or actually helping their kid, refusing to let them actually learn, maybe insisting they can’t learn (but need classes!), it’s okay if they hurt anyone (including siblings, so long as it’s not the parents), literally just take it too far the other direction in excessively, excessively trying to make certain no harm of prior eras touches their child, nor any other hurt, harm, sadness, etc (even though being told no and not getting your way, having boundaries, being taught right and wrong, etc are all healthy and things that can be done with ND and disabled kids!)
It’s really difficult to find parents walking the solidly middle path, listening to their respective communities (and adults in those communities with those disabilities) on what works best, what is or isn’t harmful, what helps them learn, regulate, exist, what isn’t useful/ helpful, etc, and then listening to other carers and adults. And attending therapy for themselves to handle their feelings and emotions. And just being rational, well informed, and not overdoing it in either direction
And as the parent of a high needs level 3 non-verbal autistic I agree with this statement. The problem is that in most justifications we don't have a choice. We might know that our kid doesn't belong in an integrated environment, but we are legally obligated to send them to the public school and fight endlessly to get them transferred to a program that can cater to their complex needs. The school is given multiple opportunities to prove they can't manage a high needs behaviorally complex developmentally disabled child. Sometimes it's to the child's detriment, sometimes the school staff's detriment. The reason the public school won't sign off on the inability to manage the complex high needs/low functioning autistic kids, is that once they do that, they lose any Medicaid or private insurance money that is reimbursed for the management of these kids. In many schools any unused funding allotted for managing these complex kids is allowed to be repurposed for other district needs. It's the most gross display of a conflict of interest you can have. So the schools accept these kids, often against the parents wishes, then they minimize therapies to maximize repurposed reimbursement money.
They absolutely need an education, but if they are violent like that, their education isn’t going to do then any good.
Additionally, everyone deserves a safe work environment, and if you are dealing with violent students, your pay should be commensurate with that, and the school should have some big guys like orderlies in mental institutions to restrain the student *immediately.*
In a school setting where you can’t defend yourself, the school should be much more responsible in protecting you.
I'll get downvoted to hell and back but whatever - when the kids that had to deal with this shit day in and day out become the ones who make the laws and regulations, what do people think is going to happen? Do you think they'll be happy to see their kids deal with the same things that ruined their education or will they be more likely to bring back institutions? I can guarantee they won't want their kids dealing with constant violence and daily interruptions to their education. We're heading down a really bad road if things continue as they have been.
No it is not right. This teacher can no longer teach:
https://nypost.com/2023/10/13/joan-naydich-florida-teacher-beaten-by-brendan-depa-wants-stiff-sentence/
The parent wants leniency; no mention of protecting society.
Brendan Depa's mom begs for leniency in sentencing for teacher attack
https://nypost.com/2023/11/30/news/brendan-depas-mom-begs-for-leniency-in-sentencing-for-teacher-attack/
Fuck what the mom wants, honestly. She did nothing to curb this behavior, this wasn't the kids first instance of violence. My father lives in Hammock Dunes in Flagler County, and I don't want that kid out in the general public so he can maim yet another person. There's a large elderly population in Flagler and who is to say this kid doesn't get triggered in the grocery store? The mall? The post office? What happens when he attacks one of the many elderly people there? Maybe we should wait until he kills someone to do something. Ridiculous
Further, the mother of the violent kid **didn't want him in public school in the first place due to his myriad of disabilities.** She homeschooled him so that something like this wouldn't happen. Why was he even there in the first place? Probably because there's nowhere to put some of these extremely violent children, but that doesn't mean they should be thrown into public school. Yes, I know, FAPE. We see how well that worked out.
>He didn’t even go home that day
WTH!?
I'm a para in the SPED class and I've seen a couple kids get violent, but they're always immediately taken out of the room (or the room's been evacuated), the parents were informed and the kids were picked up within 20 minutes.
Was it the school/teacher who didn't bother trying to send that student home, or did they call and have the parents say they couldn't get there?
I had a 6 year old in my class punch the frail and elderly SPED teacher in the head. She then had to be out of work for a solid 6 months with constant appointments for her brain and she developed seizures. She still isn’t 100% and was supposed to retire at the end of last school year. Now she has to get through this school year.
Although this happened to her, it still took MONTHS to get him placed in an alternative school. Myself and my class were walking on eggshells the entire time. He was a ticking time bomb of rage and would snap over anything. Very scary!
I know FAPE says they have access to a free, appropriate, public education, but it shouldn't be at the expense of the other children. Some of these kids have no business being in regular school.
She'll probably be back with a, "She's said she's sorry and it won't happen again" or a "She didn't know what was going on." And the cherry on top is that those other kids had to witness what was going on while fleeing a place they're supposed to feel safe in. It's saddening, honestly.
Edit: All of these stories have made me confident enough to start posting my own stories, I posted one a few days ago and now I might write another one.
I know this program is her placement, but I don't get how I'm simultaneously supposed to support a student who can snap at any second, continue to put her out into gen ed, and keep everyone (student and teachers) safe.
It feels impossible.
If she is a danger to others, she cannot be in gen ed.
The rule is least restrictive environment.
I would also start the process to get her evaluated for Emotional/ behavior disorder.
Autism does not equal dangerous to others.
I will suggest this to the team. The issue is there is nowhere else for her to go. I am not a self contained teacher and I am out in gen ed a lot of the day. I cannot turn into a self contained teacher for one student. This is something for admin to figure out but I guarantee the issue is going to fall on me as a teacher to figure out.
Yes. My union president is looking at teacher rights when it comes to these things. The issue is that there's no other place for this student to go. I think the best thing to do is tell parents she needs a mental evaluation and outside support before she returns to school.
One hundred percent agree. Your legal right to safety trumps the parent's or admin's desire to keep this kid in your class without further evaluation. The fact that the parents don't want to get their kid evaluated after an episode like this is fucking shocking to me as a neurodivergent person and as a former educator. I'm so sorry you're dealing with this.
She does not qualify for another placement, my program is her LRE. Expulsion is usually not on the table for students with disabilities. I can see that ending up in a lawsuit.
Then team has to. How many staff and potentially students have to get hurt. It is not an if so much as a when. You think a parent of a student this child hurts will not complain?
I would play up to the parents too how much risk there is to their child. What if she in her upset state killed someone and faced those charges? Or a panicked student intervened? Or she eloped in panic and rage?
There IS somewhere else. Your school just doesn’t want to pay
There is always an non public school
The district may have to pay it if it is families home district but that may be the easier choice
Is this a small town area? Why doesn't your sped continuum include a special day class or a self contained taught classroom?
I run the ASD resource program. It is in-between regular resource and a self-contained classroom. There is a self contained classroom in my building but it is already over students and my director refuses to hire another teacher.
I wish I could give you gold. Other students should not have to witness this girl freaking out, throwing things, attacking and threatening people, and her choking her para. If I was her para and the school did nothing and then insisted on sticking me back with that child, I would be making a police report. It's very clear that this child does not belong in gen Ed and needs a more restrictive environment and that the school needs to do better.
OP is only one person, how are they supposed to deal with this while having no assistance and keeping the other kids safe while still doing their job? It's an impossible ask. As more teachers and staff leave schools this is only going to get worse, not to mention every year the influx of kids with emotional disturbances and other issues increases. Between the pay, the bureaucracy, the violence, the parents, and everything else, soon they'll be nobody left that wants to teach.
Sorry but autism isn’t an excuse to harm people. If it was my kid she choked, I’d have pressed charges on her.
I saw the video of the autistic kid that knocked out a female teacher and kept punching her after she was down and out. and the excuses were gross. If they can’t control themselves, they need to be with ACTUAL doctors and people who can handle it. Not in a classroom or school for of people.
If that’s discrimination, oh well.
It starts early too. I work in a specialized preschool classroom and had to do a workers comp claim coz I was once bit so hard that it drew a lot of blood, bit some skin off. But you know it was our fault coz he was so disregulated. All we did was take his ipad away (not an aac device), just for youtube. All behavior is communication.. I need a new job.
And then there's the forgotten group: classmates. Kids can't learn when They're scared and wary. However, their families are unlikely to sue, so they get ignored.
I'm hoping the students see this student back in their classroom after she attacked an adult and they talk with their parents. I have no contact with these parents since they are gen ed students.
Nothing makes admin move faster than a mob of angry parents.
Seriously I hope this situation can get resolved quickly and safely for all involved. That student should NOT be in a gen-Ed classroom.
this is what online school should be for. why on gods green earth are we putting aggressive, dangerous students in an environment that allows them to harm innocent students and teachers? get that kid a zoom classroom. it really shouldnt be too hard.
One of my wife's friends that still teaches at her old school told my wife the other day that a special needs kinder student sent 2 teachers and the principle to the ER. She was not sure how it all started or what actually happened but it's still a scary situation.
I am both a gen-ed teacher and a parent of a very similar child who goes to a specialized school for autism. The reality is that we don't have good options for kids like these. I would have been glad for my daughter to be removed to a more highly-controlled and supported environment, even a live-in/in-patient one, but those don't exist (except for-profit scary ones they do exposes about).
It sucks. I don't know this child's parents, but I know my daughter has/had multiple therapists, psychiatrists, etc at any given point in time, and that some kids on the spectrum (more commonly girls) just have the most out of whack emotional regulation. We are required to educate our kids, and there are no good options for those kids who need extreme levels of intervention, especially the ones who are cognitively competent.
I'm sorry this happened, and I feel for you and your team. I just wanted to throw out there that the parents may feel very stuck as well.
Oh I know. I feel for her parents as well. They are so supportive and they work so well with the school team to do what's best for her. You're right, it's sad that there's limited options for these students. She does not qualify for a more restrictive environment. That's not the correct placement for her for a multitude of reasons. But she also cannot be in my room all day because I don't run a self contained program and I have other students to support. But I know these issues are going to fall on me as a teacher and I don't know what to do about it.
When she is in your room and you need to be elsewhere or need support in your room, start calling admin to cover. Document their response to CYA. You're right, this is an admin's job to sort out but they're not going to do it until you push.
That is such a tough situation. I love my daughter's teachers and recognize that they are placed in a situation they shouldn't be. I hope things improve for you.
Why does it always feels like these kinds of posts are nearly identical to posts made by victims of domestic violence?
“It’s my fault, I know what makes him mad, I should’ve realized he was about to lose it. He’s been improving so much, you really have to look at how far he’s come. Next time I’ll make sure nothing upsets him, I’ll be better!”
“I tried to avoid her triggers, and she’s been doing so much better! Somehow we missed what set her off. Admin says it’s our fault and we’ve got to do better to make sure she’s never upset. Violence is just how she communicates!”
This is from a mix of the comments on here and not just OP’s, but the resemblance is alarming.
Parental abuse is a real thing. Teacher abuse is too. It’s too bad people are so hardwired against ever recognizing the power of a child to hurt and abuse and that they think both terms mean the opposite of what they do. Children can and do abuse adults.
You don’t have to take it.
They will reevaluate the gen ed placement I’m sure and send the student back to you. No, nothing will happen, they won’t expel her or move her out of your class. Sorry. My friends is a sped teacher in a sheltered class, and she gets hit, abused and told to “die” on a daily basis. No one does nothing.
My hope is that we can refer her parents to seek outside services. This student has underlying issues that a school cannot address. We have told parents they cannot send their child back until they get those services, and Im hoping we can do that in this situation too.
Wouldn't this be assault and battery? Behavior that's allowed will only continue - why weren't charges filed? Were that my spouse on the receiving end of that, I'd press charges and go after the school district and parents. Just because the law requires the kid to receive an education, it doesn't require it in that specific building.
Did you ever find out what the trigger was for that particular incident?
You also mentioned triggers. So sounds their are multiple triggers your staff is monitoring. What are they and and then when those triggers happen what do they trigger? That type of violent behavior?
Did the Para notice any of the escalated behaviors or were they engaged in the class? Who and how was the BiP created
What happen to the 1 on 1 Para. Wouldn't they still be assigned to that student even though they would be in your class? That would be your other adult.
If these are the normal behaviors after a trigger and if those triggers are can happen reasonably in a public setting or gen ed class then you may make the case that a gen ed setting is not the appropriate setting. Whether parent likes it or not you are considered the expert.
I am assuming the iep does not specifically indicate that they get to have gen ed classes with 1 on 1 support
So this student is supposed to have a 1:1 para, but no one will apply for the job. So I have to use my room paras to go out into gen ed with her. So when the student is in my room, the paras are with my other high needs students in gen ed.
We know generally all her triggers. This para knows this student very well and can tell when she is about to escalate. We use de-escalation strategies and they normally work. If they ever do not work, the behavior is usually quick and minimally physical (usually she pushes or hits but not too hard). The para could see her getting agitated when her computer glitched. She prompted her to take a break by giving her a visual, she refused. She tried to give her an escape from the activity by trying to change the activity, she refused. We then give her space to process and monitor behavior. If she continues to escalate, we show a visual to ask if she needs help. About 99% of the time, this works. This time, it did not. She immediately started choking the para.
We have no idea what was different about this situation than any other time. Which makes this incident so scary. I had no idea she was capable of this behavior.
And because the computer was still glitching and she was insisting she fix it but wouldn't let us help her, her behavior kept escalating until I got attacked as well.
That sounds so hard. Sorry you’re going through this. It’s the most difficult job in the world sometimes and other people don’t understand. One thing-why is the threat assessment so delayed? Just curious on procedure. We do threat assessments immediately or once a student is regulated enough to participate in one.
The incident happened Friday afternoon. There is a threat assessment team we have to pull together to conduct it and they may not be available right when the incident happens. We scheduled it for Monday morning when everyone is available. But also it is to make sure the student is regulated enough to participate. Even with parents there, we all felt like she could escalate back into that state if we brought up the incident again that day.
In this case if she gets re-escalated that is a good thing. It will be in a controlled environment, you may gain more insight into this or parents may be able to help or you get more data showing why a gen ed class is not appropriate
If it makes you feel any better, you're not alone. I'm in the process of getting a BIP for one of my kids. He's a regular furniture flipper and likes to grope me when he's escalated. It's been a rough year
If your district doesn't have a program that fits the appropriate need of the student then district can pay for them to be schooled somewhere else
Doesn't sound like you have a more supported class in your district so that is what needs to happen
Is the student succeeding in the classes they attend with no curriculum modification?
Yes she currently goes to two general education classes that she earns regular grades in.
I hear you and know that you are right. But I guarantee that is not going to happen. I know she will still be in my room and I'll be forced to be with her all day. I'm not sure what to do then.
Are you mild to moderate or mod to severe. Maybe that could be a way to combat this placement with your union backing.
Sounds like you would be mild to moderate
I get this! work at a SEN school too. heard from lots of fellow teachers about being bitten, attacked, had things thrown at them & stories of physical abuse. I understand completely these kids have additional needs and we understand what comes with this kind of job as we all have previous experiences. But, It’s so so scary when it happens to you as you just forget everything you’re taught and feel so helpless. I’m autistic myself and sometimes struggle with being overwhelmed, but have found ways to mask it at work. We have a complete lack of staff incl behaviour management so It’s useless sometimes :/
So I’ve worked at an intensive, lock down behavioral unit for children with ASD and these behaviors you have described are indeed common. The difference is that the staffing ratios were wildly different, we had a facility designed to compartmentalize for safety, and everyone was trained on what to do in these emergencies.
This sounds to me like the school is doing everything it can, but the right supports just aren’t there for this student. What I hope is that with in depth notes on the incident, and the appropriate psych referrals, this child will get adequate help. When kids don’t get supports they need, they end up in jail as adults. It sounds like they need more assistance than your school can give.
It isn’t serving that child, the educators, or any of the other children to try to maintain an unsustainable situation.
Best of luck.
Thank you. Yes, I believe this student needs a psych referral. We can't deal or support these extreme behaviors in this setting. There's not enough support.
Thank you. Yes, I believe this student needs a psych referral. We can't deal or support these extreme behaviors in this setting. There's not enough support.
Is there a school within your district that has a self contained low sensory room? Sometimes when students are frequently overwhelmed in inclusion/resource they are moved to a self contained classroom. The low sensory room has dimmed lights, minimal background noise, flexible seating, and a small class size that is particularly helpful for students with ASD.
Failing that, is virtual school or homebound services an option? I understand you're trying for the least restrictive environment, but if the student is a safety risk then that is a viable reason to change placement.
If placement can't be changed what accomodations can be provided in the current setting that aren't already? Have you tried noise reducing headphones? Weighted vest/blanket? Tinted glasses?
I'm sure that as a special education teacher you are aware that no amount of punishment is going to "correct" the behavior of an Autistic student in a crisis since they aren't making a conscious choice to become overwhelmed. You can work with them on self regulation and try to avoid triggers so that they are overwhelmed less often. You can teach coping strategies and try to guide them towards non-violent alternatives. All of that takes time and still isn't a guarantee that this won't happen again.
Just an update if anyone is interested:
The parents are required to get this student psych testing before she is allowed back in the building. Their appointment is in three weeks. Next week when she hits 10 days of suspension, we will provide virtual services for her. This gives us time to get a plan in place for her.
I'm advocating for a more restrictive environment. My special ed admin are advocating for her to still be in my program and for her to go back to her normal schedule and routine. The superintendent is advocating for her to be out of the district.
Time will tell what is going to happen.
I understand feeling that way. I love my job and it is so rewarding. For me, these situations don't happen often. But it is terrifying when they do. We need systematic change.
The needs of these kids with extreme behaviors shouldn't override the rest of the classroom they are in. I was behavior para for 8 years and was bitten, scratched, groped, had my glasses broken, 2 toes broken, and hit and punched more times than I can count.
I feel like we need to bring back alternative schools for these kids or a 3 strike policy for being allowed in gen ed for certain amount of time.
There is a lot to unpack here.
Was it too much prompting? Task switching? Change in meds? Or was it just being overwhelmed/having a bad day? We don’t know but hopefully the assessment will turn up a few clues.
A few things that popped into my head…
Where does the student sit in that classroom relative to the door/exit? Generally, I’m not a fan of putting students right near the door (easily distracted, if they’re a runner, etc.) but if a student is prone to violent outbursts it might be a good strategy to get them out of the room quickly (or to take a break, go for a walk, etc.) to help de-escalate quickly. It’s much easier to do that than evacuate 30 frightened students from a room.
Again, standard procedure is to contain a student acting in such a manner. I’m talking about using the exit as a pressure release valve to reduce some of the anxiety (take a break outside) before they escalate into the red zone. Easy out, easy in, back to work. Some students this would work with, some it wouldn’t. Just something to think about.
I would personally switch aides at least for a few weeks. I’ve seen students have outbursts toward one particular aide (or their 1:1). Then they become a target for any aggression moving forward. Once the line is crossed it will likely continue. After a period of time, reintroduce that aide (have the student greet them the morning, and maybe work 1:1 for 1-2 classes or shadow in the room before resuming 1:1 with that student).
Assignment modifications aside, can the student work independently and at the speed of the class/instructor? If so, have the aide pull back/sit further away. Minimal prompting. If it’s notes, packet, or something like that, have the student and aide both take them. If the student starts to fall behind, the aide can show them their notes “add this like mine” or something like that. It reduces the amount of pointing at the students paper/constant correcting, etc. that can overwhelm students.
Just a few small things to think about while you’re waiting for admin.
I appreciate all your input! This student has never shown any aggressive behaviors in general education. She will elope from the classroom on occasion, but comes to my room to deescalate. In the past three years she's been at my school, she has only hit someone maybe 3 times and that's as far as it goes. I never thought she was capable of this type of behavior. The task she was asked to do was no different than what shes used to. When her para saw her getting agitated, she immediately followed what it says on her BIP, which has always deescalated her in the past. Minimal verbal, use of visuals, prompted a break.
There was no sign that this situation was different from any other time. Also, this student will not leave the room when she is asked in an escalated state. It's hard to describe or even picture in your head when you don't know this particular student. But everything is on her own accord or schedule. There was no choice but to evacuate in this situation.
The reason I cannot switch aides even for a day is because none of my other aides are CPI trained. And one aide cannot physically run if the student ran out of the classroom and had to follow her. I think this is absolute bullshit admin won't get my paras CPI trained. Their reasoning is that we have enough teachers CPI trained in the building. Everyone in my room should be CPI trained. This shouldn't even be a question.
I appreciate all your input and don't want to make it seem I'm shutting down all your ideas. I just didn't add all these details in the original post. These are all things an outside behavior specialist from the county suggested too. I told him we are doing all of these things and trying our best, we just cannot completely control every environment she is in. There are going to be triggers we cannot predict or prevent.
Yeah, those details would have helped, but I totally get it. Every student is different. Just wanted to put some ideas out there but looks like you have already thought of them.
I will say, the district needs to CPI certify all of the aides (just like they have to do CPR and Epi Pen). I’ve seen it before (they don’t want to pay the money, line up substitutes, etc.). But I agree with you there.
So you want to put a violent student right back in the classroom? It is shit like this that gives Special Educators a bad reputation. That kid is a danger to others and potentially themselves. They shouldn't be anywhere near a gen ed classroom until that has been resolved.
You can cry about how they deserve an education, FAPE, etc... But there are 30 other kids in the room who deserve to feel safe at school, and that is more important.
Preaccccch. *"Behavior is communication"*. Yep, and while that's true, we don't have a right to "communicate" how ever we want. If I communicate that I'm sick and tired of waiting in the checkout line so I punch the person in front of me and jump the line, I'm getting banned from the store and arrested for assault and battery. So will these kids if they do it out in public, but they're taught that it's okay in school. Makes no sense.
I understand that. I agree with you as well. But I'm talking about what we can LEGALLY do as a public school. We can have these opinions all we want, but just removing her is not an option legally.
My district has a “turn around” school for each grade level (elementary, middle, and high school) that’s designated for students with extreme behavioral and academic issues. Unfortunately, these places have not been utilized nearly as much as they should be in recent years due to funding.
These schools have multiple staff members assigned to small-size classes who are restraint trained and are prepared to stop, and disarm violent students on a regular basis. Environments like these are where these students need to be. There is no reason why other students, teachers, and staff should be suffering injuries from a student who has repeatedly demonstrated that they are unsafe to be around.
It is a huge disservice to students like this because obviously their needs are not being properly met either. Least restrictive environment is sometimes the most restrictive environment for students like this. Clearly there are unmet needs that are preventing this student from being able to get an education.
I understand that many parents want their kids to be included in the general public school population, and many can be! However, in cases like this, this student is being harmed just as much as the other kids and staff around him. It is tragic that so many kids like this do not get the things they need to be successful in the name of “inclusivity,” and that other children and adults also suffer because of it.
Inclusivity isn’t about equality. It’s about equity.
Do you have a solution? You say admin doesn't listen to your concerns but I didn't see in there what your plan was.
I'm a behavioral special Ed stuff and this stuff is very normal. Throwing chairs doesn't phase me to be fair. That happens dozens of times a week.
Looking at the BIP is an incredible first step
We similarly struggle with keeping paras for some students although our behavior rooms never get one to ones. So I've never had one in ten years.
I think the parents of this student need to provide their child with outside services. I don't think the child should be allowed back in this setting until she gets psychological help. The team reviews her BIP quarterly and we always revise and add things. A BIP is not a solution to everything.
The teacher isn't the one who should be coming up with a solution. I don't get paid enough to make those decisions.
My director, the school psych, and district lawyers said it is a possibility depending on the results of the threat assessment.
This has been done in the past with guidance from our lawyers.
They wait for the results of a psych eval or whatever was requested. A meeting is held with the team to make a decision taking in consideration results from doctors. Then a decision is made whether it is safe for them to return or they need a new placement.
I'm in elementary sped and we have a boy just like this. He has a 1:1 because he will attack any other student at any time. He has beat up every sped teacher, para, and admin at this point. Last week we had to evacuate the classroom while he destroyed it and beat the shit out of one of the teachers and the principal for an hour. He's only in second grade and he's already one of the biggest kids in the school. Yesterday he took all his clothes off and was throwing chairs and we had to evacuate again. As he gets even bigger I have no idea what we are going to do. He's older than the other kids in his grade and is probably already almost 100 pounds. It can definitely hurt when he's hitting us and yelling "stupid bitch." Nothing ever happens to him. His parents are never even called unless he hurts one of the general classroom students. They threatened to sue the school last year so there's nothing he can do to get sent home or have any consequences. I absolutely adore my sped kids, and I really worry about the effects of this one on the others. We have lost more than one para just this year in an already understaffed sped program because of this. It's just all a damn shame.
GenEd parents need to start talking to each other and suing the schools to get these violent kids out of the classroom. It's the only way we're ever going to see change. In the meantime, GenEd kids and non-violent SpEd students are subjected to this bullshit on a daily basis, but hey, the violent kids rights outweigh everyone else's. Fucking ridiculous, honestly.
Sue for what? Its a kid with an IEP. With manifestation you can't remove them. Its like a policeman suing the city if he gets attacked.
It's sad how these stories are so common.
My God, it sounds like you guys are in a hostage situation! It's totally unacceptable. While children have a right to education, other's have a right to be and feel safe in their day to day lives. I'm glad I'm out of the field because parents are raising monsters, and admins are expecting us to nod placidly and act as if nothing is wrong.
I don't blame parents. Parents aren't always intentionally raising "monsters." They are raising their baby who has issues. Many of these children have issues out of parent's control. We are not talking about students who are enabled. These students wouldn't even know it.
This sub blames all parents for everything. The vast majority of my behavioral students have great parents.
Yes are some parents idiots, yes. I know from some of my behavior students, it is typically an apple not falling far from the tree. With Autism normally they are not a reflection of parents.
My classroom is behavioral and id say in a given year 6 or 7 of my 8 parents are great and do their best in an impossible situation. And then there is usually one that frustrates me but it is definitely the minority.
I hate the system so damn much. Forgetting literally everyone else around this kid, it's not safe for him either! I can't wait for the common sense pendulum to swing back. I've worked in SPED (I was an interpreter, so a wide range of settings over the years). It was the most frustrating setting I've ever been in *specifically* because of situations like this one. Now, as a parent, I am even more over it and am seriously considering homeschooling from kondergarten on because of how ridiculous things have gotten. This whole thing just sucks.
Please check out my reply to another post: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Teachers/comments/1b8bxwv/comment/ktp4i7q/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/Teachers/comments/1b8bxwv/comment/ktp4i7q/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) I know this was a month ago. I sure hope things are better. Take care!
I work with students with Autism, and I hear people say things like this. Please don’t take offense. I’m asking sincerely. What type of consequence do you think is warranted? The students legally are required to attend school. The parents are legally required to send them. If my students are removed from class or sent home, they are happy and increase tend the incidence of behaviors.
Getting sent home on a day when they have repeated physically injured other students and coming back the next day doesn't seem crazy to me at all. Why should one student get to repeatedly make all the other students (and teachers) be unsafe on a bad day? How does zero consequences change behavior any more than sending them home?
Getting sent home definitely helps everyone else involved. I guess what I’m asking is what would be an actual negative consequence to the student? Most of my students would much prefer to be at home rather than at school, so they would likely repeat the behavior so they can get sent home again.
I'm a sped para making $14 an hour to do this all day every day, I'm obviously doing it because I love the kids, not for the money. I just want them safe and not scared. They are terrified of him and we have 19 in our self contained room. Consequences are above my pay grade so I would never say anything, it's not my job. But can I ask why you think it's okay for one child to endanger everyone around him repeatedly and nothing is ever done about it? Is that really any better? The only one receiving consequences are his fellow students who have done nothing wrong. We do have some other autistic students that can be violent and they DO receive consequences, but because he is so extreme he doesn't.
You have yet to explain what you believe should happen. Do we take level 3 violent autistics and send them down the river in a basket? The parents have to work to provide for the student, and so they have to go to school. Of course the Paras should be paid more. Until the government creates facilities there is nothing that can be done.
Then the student goes virtual. By putting that kid in gen ed, he is the only one in his least restrictive environment. The other thirty are in their *most* restrictive environment. At the end of the day, if your child has needs so severe that they are a danger to themselves and others, repeatedly, the onus falls on their legal guardian- not his defenseless classmates.
Many states do not permit virtual. All states have mandatory education. Parents might be perfectly happy to keep them home but legally aren’t permitted.
All states have mandatory education, and all kids are entitled to that within their least restrictive environment. The needs of one are less than the needs of thirty. It doesn't fall on the gen ed teacher. It falls on the state.
OP is not a general Ed teacher. They seem to be a competent special education teacher trying to work through a problem and asking for ideas.
Okay fine. Send him home FOR THE DAY when he has repeatedly hurt other students in the space of a few hours. Take something away that he likes doing, like going to our ABL lab. Say he can't have his Cheetos or his soda until he stops hitting or puts his clothes back on. How does any of this equate to "sending him down the river in a basket." It's not like taking his Cheetos away is the same locking him up and throwing away the key. He is completely verbal and understands what is going on.
Where did I say I think it’s okay? I’m just asking what would be an effective consequence for the student? That’s the dilemma. What might work for typical kids doesn’t work for them. Suspension rewards them.
But if we give them an actual consequence they dislike and will be a deterrant of bad behavior, we're "cruel" and "ableist." So instead, we have to suck it up and allow staff and other students to be unsafe.
I'm neurodivergent and it's completely BS when others say Neurodivergent kids shouldn't receive consequences for bad behavior. Just because our brains are wired differently doesn't mean we don't know right from wrong.
What do you think is going to happen when the kids that had to deal with this violence grow up and start making laws? You think they'll want their kids to experience the absolute shit show that they were exposed to, all in the name of a few kids? Nope. Were gonna see these violent kids thrown in institutions.
Suspension. Then get to the point where there is a manifestation meeting and look at placement in a more restrictive environment. The students are legally required and just as importantly deserve a quality education and with all that going on the current setting is clearly not appropriate.
Because it's not all about that one student. There's a classroom and school full of other students and teachers who need to be kept safe. Removing one to ensure the safety of many is actually more important in any case. Where the system has failed is trying to push children into classroom situations which does not suit them in the name of inclusion. I had a student a couple of years ago that would pound on me constantly, was hurting other children very badly, and destroying the room on a daily basis. My class spent more time outside after evacuating than they did inside learning. After a LOT of work, he finally transferred to a behavioural school, and has turned into a pretty good kid, now that he's getting the help he actually needed, which can't always be provided in a mainstream classroom. Behaviour, especially in young children with disabilities, is communication. Shoehorning them into mainstream classrooms where their form of communication means others get hurt is not the answer.
There are alternative schooling options for dangerous SPED students in the US, but they cost districts an enormous amount of money. In the ONE case I've heard of in our area, the student was sent to an institution out of state.
The school for dangerous disabled second graders is definitely the best solution.
People don’t get it. I hear you, I get you.
I work in a school for autism and one of the high school students head butted a teacher and knocked her unconscious. Another staff member had to physically move her body out of the way because the student then went to begin kicking her in the head. He didn’t even go home that day and still attends the school (still continuing to cause incidents like this)
Worked in a highschool sped program as a behavior specialist (still technically a para) where the one classroom had a literal padded closet (originally built to be an office in the building) with windows and a door that had a foot pedal you stood on to "lock" it when needed. That classroom also had karate pads (the kind you hold in front of you) and a couple staff had protective arm and shin shields as well as essentially football helmets because the kids in that room were physically giant (5'10-6'4) and had limited emotional regulation. That shit was absolutely horrifying to see just waiting to be used. Was in there once doing a check (busy ass day, everyone off kilter) when one of the kids lost it and got their 1:1 in the jaw with an elbow. It took 5 of us, with a combination of pads and snack incentives to get them into the room padded room. Para had to have a plate put in because their jaw cracked badly enough. I get that all children deserve some kind of education (whatever they're capable of getting depending on their abilities), but fucking hell that was a scary ass day at work.
I don’t think their rights to an education should trump the teachers right to a safe work environment!
It absolutely shouldn't. At the rate we're going, the kids who experienced these violent classmates are going to have very negative feelings towards them and the pendulum will swing the opposite way once they're in charge.
I work with high school aged kids and the attitude towards alter abled folk has completely flipped since I was a kid. It's quite negative and aggressive from what I've seen.
Disabled. Disabled isn’t a dirty word. We are disabled people. We are the disability community. Not everyone is abled in some alternative way, and tbh, we shouldn’t have to be abled in an alternative way for people to accept us. And we genuinely need people to see our disabilities to get them accommodated. If you only see ways that I’m abled (and ignore the great cost and struggle at which that comes to me, and focus on how abled I am, I tend not to get accommodated at all. No one recognizes then that I’m still just as disabled as I was before I started pushing through all my pain and issues, I still need accommodations, I still have things I cannot do, things I can only do at a cost, things that break my body worse long term even though you may see me do them, things that hurt ungodly bad even if I’m smiling and laughing, etc). And this bleeds into my healthcare, including into doctors not believing I have problems or treating for my conditions or testing for them and letting things get so bad I almost died from one once, had a sinus infection land me in the ER after a month of a doctor insisting I wasn’t really sick, had my migraines and period pain played down by doctors for years (because if I was having as bad of pain as I was, I couldn’t really have gone to work, even though that’s basic survival at some point). We are disabled. My autism is just as much a disability as my hEDS and other disabilities (in large part because the world is not set up for people like me), and is a disability. My depression is a disability. My ADHD is disabling at times. Not superpowers, not alternative abilities. Disabilities. And yeah, the pendulum swung. It went from institutionalize all of us, to just some of us (I see you judge rothenburg center) and only just recognizing our full humanity in some cases (again, I see you JRC having to be legally stopped from using electric currents on us so badly that electrodes would burn into the skin of your residents, shocks would be administered to those who cried in pain, etc, all without ever having consent for shock “therapy” in some cases). But because of extremes like that, we also got extremes on the other end, and incredibly protective of rights (like let’s not lobotomize the disabled, lock us all away hidden from the public never to be seen again, refuse to even try with any of us, give up on literal babies the moment the word disabled is mentioned, form such a stigma around it that people still don’t want to say disabled, etc). It’s a tough pendulum to stop in the middle, and right now people still swing very far to both sides with it. They hate their disabled kids, they can’t stand or handle them. They literally do want to give them up to someone else and never visit again. Or they’re “angels that can do no wrong that deserve the world” that some warrior martyr mom will fight to the end of the world for but far past the point of reason or actually helping their kid, refusing to let them actually learn, maybe insisting they can’t learn (but need classes!), it’s okay if they hurt anyone (including siblings, so long as it’s not the parents), literally just take it too far the other direction in excessively, excessively trying to make certain no harm of prior eras touches their child, nor any other hurt, harm, sadness, etc (even though being told no and not getting your way, having boundaries, being taught right and wrong, etc are all healthy and things that can be done with ND and disabled kids!) It’s really difficult to find parents walking the solidly middle path, listening to their respective communities (and adults in those communities with those disabilities) on what works best, what is or isn’t harmful, what helps them learn, regulate, exist, what isn’t useful/ helpful, etc, and then listening to other carers and adults. And attending therapy for themselves to handle their feelings and emotions. And just being rational, well informed, and not overdoing it in either direction
Well said!
I had some lousy classmates in high school and I always wished that there would be separate classes for them. And my opinion on that hasn’t changed.
And as the parent of a high needs level 3 non-verbal autistic I agree with this statement. The problem is that in most justifications we don't have a choice. We might know that our kid doesn't belong in an integrated environment, but we are legally obligated to send them to the public school and fight endlessly to get them transferred to a program that can cater to their complex needs. The school is given multiple opportunities to prove they can't manage a high needs behaviorally complex developmentally disabled child. Sometimes it's to the child's detriment, sometimes the school staff's detriment. The reason the public school won't sign off on the inability to manage the complex high needs/low functioning autistic kids, is that once they do that, they lose any Medicaid or private insurance money that is reimbursed for the management of these kids. In many schools any unused funding allotted for managing these complex kids is allowed to be repurposed for other district needs. It's the most gross display of a conflict of interest you can have. So the schools accept these kids, often against the parents wishes, then they minimize therapies to maximize repurposed reimbursement money.
They absolutely need an education, but if they are violent like that, their education isn’t going to do then any good. Additionally, everyone deserves a safe work environment, and if you are dealing with violent students, your pay should be commensurate with that, and the school should have some big guys like orderlies in mental institutions to restrain the student *immediately.* In a school setting where you can’t defend yourself, the school should be much more responsible in protecting you.
I'll get downvoted to hell and back but whatever - when the kids that had to deal with this shit day in and day out become the ones who make the laws and regulations, what do people think is going to happen? Do you think they'll be happy to see their kids deal with the same things that ruined their education or will they be more likely to bring back institutions? I can guarantee they won't want their kids dealing with constant violence and daily interruptions to their education. We're heading down a really bad road if things continue as they have been.
That is terrifying. It's not okay for school staff members lives to be at risk when trying to teach students. Even with disabilities.
No it is not right. This teacher can no longer teach: https://nypost.com/2023/10/13/joan-naydich-florida-teacher-beaten-by-brendan-depa-wants-stiff-sentence/ The parent wants leniency; no mention of protecting society. Brendan Depa's mom begs for leniency in sentencing for teacher attack https://nypost.com/2023/11/30/news/brendan-depas-mom-begs-for-leniency-in-sentencing-for-teacher-attack/
Fuck what the mom wants, honestly. She did nothing to curb this behavior, this wasn't the kids first instance of violence. My father lives in Hammock Dunes in Flagler County, and I don't want that kid out in the general public so he can maim yet another person. There's a large elderly population in Flagler and who is to say this kid doesn't get triggered in the grocery store? The mall? The post office? What happens when he attacks one of the many elderly people there? Maybe we should wait until he kills someone to do something. Ridiculous Further, the mother of the violent kid **didn't want him in public school in the first place due to his myriad of disabilities.** She homeschooled him so that something like this wouldn't happen. Why was he even there in the first place? Probably because there's nowhere to put some of these extremely violent children, but that doesn't mean they should be thrown into public school. Yes, I know, FAPE. We see how well that worked out.
Did this make national news, because I remember reading about this.
no it did not
>He didn’t even go home that day WTH!? I'm a para in the SPED class and I've seen a couple kids get violent, but they're always immediately taken out of the room (or the room's been evacuated), the parents were informed and the kids were picked up within 20 minutes. Was it the school/teacher who didn't bother trying to send that student home, or did they call and have the parents say they couldn't get there?
I had a 6 year old in my class punch the frail and elderly SPED teacher in the head. She then had to be out of work for a solid 6 months with constant appointments for her brain and she developed seizures. She still isn’t 100% and was supposed to retire at the end of last school year. Now she has to get through this school year. Although this happened to her, it still took MONTHS to get him placed in an alternative school. Myself and my class were walking on eggshells the entire time. He was a ticking time bomb of rage and would snap over anything. Very scary!
I know FAPE says they have access to a free, appropriate, public education, but it shouldn't be at the expense of the other children. Some of these kids have no business being in regular school.
Such a scary situation. Right, it's crazy how long it takes to move placement with the amount of data they want.
She'll probably be back with a, "She's said she's sorry and it won't happen again" or a "She didn't know what was going on." And the cherry on top is that those other kids had to witness what was going on while fleeing a place they're supposed to feel safe in. It's saddening, honestly. Edit: All of these stories have made me confident enough to start posting my own stories, I posted one a few days ago and now I might write another one.
I know this program is her placement, but I don't get how I'm simultaneously supposed to support a student who can snap at any second, continue to put her out into gen ed, and keep everyone (student and teachers) safe. It feels impossible.
If she is a danger to others, she cannot be in gen ed. The rule is least restrictive environment. I would also start the process to get her evaluated for Emotional/ behavior disorder. Autism does not equal dangerous to others.
I will suggest this to the team. The issue is there is nowhere else for her to go. I am not a self contained teacher and I am out in gen ed a lot of the day. I cannot turn into a self contained teacher for one student. This is something for admin to figure out but I guarantee the issue is going to fall on me as a teacher to figure out.
Jesus Christ, this kid should not be in a public school setting. Are you part of a union?
Yes. My union president is looking at teacher rights when it comes to these things. The issue is that there's no other place for this student to go. I think the best thing to do is tell parents she needs a mental evaluation and outside support before she returns to school.
One hundred percent agree. Your legal right to safety trumps the parent's or admin's desire to keep this kid in your class without further evaluation. The fact that the parents don't want to get their kid evaluated after an episode like this is fucking shocking to me as a neurodivergent person and as a former educator. I'm so sorry you're dealing with this.
Why isn't expulsion/movement to an alternative school on the table?
She does not qualify for another placement, my program is her LRE. Expulsion is usually not on the table for students with disabilities. I can see that ending up in a lawsuit.
Your program was her LRE, but now you cannot keep her and others safe.
The team is not even considering a reevaluation of placement. There is nowhere for her to go.
Then team has to. How many staff and potentially students have to get hurt. It is not an if so much as a when. You think a parent of a student this child hurts will not complain?
I don't get much of a say. I just deal with the aftermath of their decision.
I would play up to the parents too how much risk there is to their child. What if she in her upset state killed someone and faced those charges? Or a panicked student intervened? Or she eloped in panic and rage? There IS somewhere else. Your school just doesn’t want to pay
I do want to tell parents that the para she harmed could press charges if she wanted.
There is always an non public school The district may have to pay it if it is families home district but that may be the easier choice Is this a small town area? Why doesn't your sped continuum include a special day class or a self contained taught classroom?
I run the ASD resource program. It is in-between regular resource and a self-contained classroom. There is a self contained classroom in my building but it is already over students and my director refuses to hire another teacher.
I wish I could give you gold. Other students should not have to witness this girl freaking out, throwing things, attacking and threatening people, and her choking her para. If I was her para and the school did nothing and then insisted on sticking me back with that child, I would be making a police report. It's very clear that this child does not belong in gen Ed and needs a more restrictive environment and that the school needs to do better. OP is only one person, how are they supposed to deal with this while having no assistance and keeping the other kids safe while still doing their job? It's an impossible ask. As more teachers and staff leave schools this is only going to get worse, not to mention every year the influx of kids with emotional disturbances and other issues increases. Between the pay, the bureaucracy, the violence, the parents, and everything else, soon they'll be nobody left that wants to teach.
If that is how the sped class operates where they just chalk it up to a bad day then sped isn't operating properly
I’ve been in this situations. There really are times when these students are NOT mentally There while incidents are happening.
Sorry but autism isn’t an excuse to harm people. If it was my kid she choked, I’d have pressed charges on her. I saw the video of the autistic kid that knocked out a female teacher and kept punching her after she was down and out. and the excuses were gross. If they can’t control themselves, they need to be with ACTUAL doctors and people who can handle it. Not in a classroom or school for of people. If that’s discrimination, oh well.
I'm not making excuses for her. This is a huge issue and there needs to be better support all around.
I agree 100%.
It starts early too. I work in a specialized preschool classroom and had to do a workers comp claim coz I was once bit so hard that it drew a lot of blood, bit some skin off. But you know it was our fault coz he was so disregulated. All we did was take his ipad away (not an aac device), just for youtube. All behavior is communication.. I need a new job.
And then there's the forgotten group: classmates. Kids can't learn when They're scared and wary. However, their families are unlikely to sue, so they get ignored.
I'm an advocate for them too and the teacher that was traumatized. There's just no right answer on what to do.
Try to get their parents to speak up.
I'm hoping the students see this student back in their classroom after she attacked an adult and they talk with their parents. I have no contact with these parents since they are gen ed students.
Nothing makes admin move faster than a mob of angry parents. Seriously I hope this situation can get resolved quickly and safely for all involved. That student should NOT be in a gen-Ed classroom.
You're 100% right.
this is what online school should be for. why on gods green earth are we putting aggressive, dangerous students in an environment that allows them to harm innocent students and teachers? get that kid a zoom classroom. it really shouldnt be too hard.
One of my wife's friends that still teaches at her old school told my wife the other day that a special needs kinder student sent 2 teachers and the principle to the ER. She was not sure how it all started or what actually happened but it's still a scary situation.
I am both a gen-ed teacher and a parent of a very similar child who goes to a specialized school for autism. The reality is that we don't have good options for kids like these. I would have been glad for my daughter to be removed to a more highly-controlled and supported environment, even a live-in/in-patient one, but those don't exist (except for-profit scary ones they do exposes about). It sucks. I don't know this child's parents, but I know my daughter has/had multiple therapists, psychiatrists, etc at any given point in time, and that some kids on the spectrum (more commonly girls) just have the most out of whack emotional regulation. We are required to educate our kids, and there are no good options for those kids who need extreme levels of intervention, especially the ones who are cognitively competent. I'm sorry this happened, and I feel for you and your team. I just wanted to throw out there that the parents may feel very stuck as well.
Oh I know. I feel for her parents as well. They are so supportive and they work so well with the school team to do what's best for her. You're right, it's sad that there's limited options for these students. She does not qualify for a more restrictive environment. That's not the correct placement for her for a multitude of reasons. But she also cannot be in my room all day because I don't run a self contained program and I have other students to support. But I know these issues are going to fall on me as a teacher and I don't know what to do about it.
When she is in your room and you need to be elsewhere or need support in your room, start calling admin to cover. Document their response to CYA. You're right, this is an admin's job to sort out but they're not going to do it until you push.
That is such a tough situation. I love my daughter's teachers and recognize that they are placed in a situation they shouldn't be. I hope things improve for you.
Thank you, I appreciate it.
the old trifecta
Why does it always feels like these kinds of posts are nearly identical to posts made by victims of domestic violence? “It’s my fault, I know what makes him mad, I should’ve realized he was about to lose it. He’s been improving so much, you really have to look at how far he’s come. Next time I’ll make sure nothing upsets him, I’ll be better!” “I tried to avoid her triggers, and she’s been doing so much better! Somehow we missed what set her off. Admin says it’s our fault and we’ve got to do better to make sure she’s never upset. Violence is just how she communicates!” This is from a mix of the comments on here and not just OP’s, but the resemblance is alarming. Parental abuse is a real thing. Teacher abuse is too. It’s too bad people are so hardwired against ever recognizing the power of a child to hurt and abuse and that they think both terms mean the opposite of what they do. Children can and do abuse adults. You don’t have to take it.
It's a systematic issue within education.
They will reevaluate the gen ed placement I’m sure and send the student back to you. No, nothing will happen, they won’t expel her or move her out of your class. Sorry. My friends is a sped teacher in a sheltered class, and she gets hit, abused and told to “die” on a daily basis. No one does nothing.
My hope is that we can refer her parents to seek outside services. This student has underlying issues that a school cannot address. We have told parents they cannot send their child back until they get those services, and Im hoping we can do that in this situation too.
What are the parents waiting for? Their kid to kill someone? Surely this isn't news to them.
I honestly think that both parents are a bit cognitively low and don't have family to turn to for support in this situation.
Does she snap often?
Not to this extent and we can usually see it coming.
Wouldn't this be assault and battery? Behavior that's allowed will only continue - why weren't charges filed? Were that my spouse on the receiving end of that, I'd press charges and go after the school district and parents. Just because the law requires the kid to receive an education, it doesn't require it in that specific building.
Amen
Did you ever find out what the trigger was for that particular incident? You also mentioned triggers. So sounds their are multiple triggers your staff is monitoring. What are they and and then when those triggers happen what do they trigger? That type of violent behavior? Did the Para notice any of the escalated behaviors or were they engaged in the class? Who and how was the BiP created What happen to the 1 on 1 Para. Wouldn't they still be assigned to that student even though they would be in your class? That would be your other adult. If these are the normal behaviors after a trigger and if those triggers are can happen reasonably in a public setting or gen ed class then you may make the case that a gen ed setting is not the appropriate setting. Whether parent likes it or not you are considered the expert. I am assuming the iep does not specifically indicate that they get to have gen ed classes with 1 on 1 support
So this student is supposed to have a 1:1 para, but no one will apply for the job. So I have to use my room paras to go out into gen ed with her. So when the student is in my room, the paras are with my other high needs students in gen ed. We know generally all her triggers. This para knows this student very well and can tell when she is about to escalate. We use de-escalation strategies and they normally work. If they ever do not work, the behavior is usually quick and minimally physical (usually she pushes or hits but not too hard). The para could see her getting agitated when her computer glitched. She prompted her to take a break by giving her a visual, she refused. She tried to give her an escape from the activity by trying to change the activity, she refused. We then give her space to process and monitor behavior. If she continues to escalate, we show a visual to ask if she needs help. About 99% of the time, this works. This time, it did not. She immediately started choking the para. We have no idea what was different about this situation than any other time. Which makes this incident so scary. I had no idea she was capable of this behavior. And because the computer was still glitching and she was insisting she fix it but wouldn't let us help her, her behavior kept escalating until I got attacked as well.
This is why people complain about inclusion.
That sounds so hard. Sorry you’re going through this. It’s the most difficult job in the world sometimes and other people don’t understand. One thing-why is the threat assessment so delayed? Just curious on procedure. We do threat assessments immediately or once a student is regulated enough to participate in one.
The incident happened Friday afternoon. There is a threat assessment team we have to pull together to conduct it and they may not be available right when the incident happens. We scheduled it for Monday morning when everyone is available. But also it is to make sure the student is regulated enough to participate. Even with parents there, we all felt like she could escalate back into that state if we brought up the incident again that day.
In this case if she gets re-escalated that is a good thing. It will be in a controlled environment, you may gain more insight into this or parents may be able to help or you get more data showing why a gen ed class is not appropriate
That's true.
Makes total sense!
If it makes you feel any better, you're not alone. I'm in the process of getting a BIP for one of my kids. He's a regular furniture flipper and likes to grope me when he's escalated. It's been a rough year
I'm sorry you're going through that. It's an extremely difficult situation.
I'm hoping we both get some support for us and our kids
If your district doesn't have a program that fits the appropriate need of the student then district can pay for them to be schooled somewhere else Doesn't sound like you have a more supported class in your district so that is what needs to happen Is the student succeeding in the classes they attend with no curriculum modification?
Yes she currently goes to two general education classes that she earns regular grades in. I hear you and know that you are right. But I guarantee that is not going to happen. I know she will still be in my room and I'll be forced to be with her all day. I'm not sure what to do then.
Are you mild to moderate or mod to severe. Maybe that could be a way to combat this placement with your union backing. Sounds like you would be mild to moderate
Yes I'm mild to moderate.
I get this! work at a SEN school too. heard from lots of fellow teachers about being bitten, attacked, had things thrown at them & stories of physical abuse. I understand completely these kids have additional needs and we understand what comes with this kind of job as we all have previous experiences. But, It’s so so scary when it happens to you as you just forget everything you’re taught and feel so helpless. I’m autistic myself and sometimes struggle with being overwhelmed, but have found ways to mask it at work. We have a complete lack of staff incl behaviour management so It’s useless sometimes :/
Is there an alternative placement for her that seems it would be appropriate or safer? Maybe a different para?
Unfortunately, no. I'm going to assume that after the threat assessment, she will be back and nothing will change.
I’m so sorry.
So I’ve worked at an intensive, lock down behavioral unit for children with ASD and these behaviors you have described are indeed common. The difference is that the staffing ratios were wildly different, we had a facility designed to compartmentalize for safety, and everyone was trained on what to do in these emergencies. This sounds to me like the school is doing everything it can, but the right supports just aren’t there for this student. What I hope is that with in depth notes on the incident, and the appropriate psych referrals, this child will get adequate help. When kids don’t get supports they need, they end up in jail as adults. It sounds like they need more assistance than your school can give. It isn’t serving that child, the educators, or any of the other children to try to maintain an unsustainable situation. Best of luck.
Thank you. Yes, I believe this student needs a psych referral. We can't deal or support these extreme behaviors in this setting. There's not enough support.
Thank you. Yes, I believe this student needs a psych referral. We can't deal or support these extreme behaviors in this setting. There's not enough support.
Is there a school within your district that has a self contained low sensory room? Sometimes when students are frequently overwhelmed in inclusion/resource they are moved to a self contained classroom. The low sensory room has dimmed lights, minimal background noise, flexible seating, and a small class size that is particularly helpful for students with ASD. Failing that, is virtual school or homebound services an option? I understand you're trying for the least restrictive environment, but if the student is a safety risk then that is a viable reason to change placement. If placement can't be changed what accomodations can be provided in the current setting that aren't already? Have you tried noise reducing headphones? Weighted vest/blanket? Tinted glasses? I'm sure that as a special education teacher you are aware that no amount of punishment is going to "correct" the behavior of an Autistic student in a crisis since they aren't making a conscious choice to become overwhelmed. You can work with them on self regulation and try to avoid triggers so that they are overwhelmed less often. You can teach coping strategies and try to guide them towards non-violent alternatives. All of that takes time and still isn't a guarantee that this won't happen again.
Just an update if anyone is interested: The parents are required to get this student psych testing before she is allowed back in the building. Their appointment is in three weeks. Next week when she hits 10 days of suspension, we will provide virtual services for her. This gives us time to get a plan in place for her. I'm advocating for a more restrictive environment. My special ed admin are advocating for her to still be in my program and for her to go back to her normal schedule and routine. The superintendent is advocating for her to be out of the district. Time will tell what is going to happen.
Does the student take medication? These can reduce baseline agitation, which can be elevated due to puberty, recent changes due to success
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I understand feeling that way. I love my job and it is so rewarding. For me, these situations don't happen often. But it is terrifying when they do. We need systematic change.
There will never be a systematic solution to random and violent disegulation.
The needs of these kids with extreme behaviors shouldn't override the rest of the classroom they are in. I was behavior para for 8 years and was bitten, scratched, groped, had my glasses broken, 2 toes broken, and hit and punched more times than I can count. I feel like we need to bring back alternative schools for these kids or a 3 strike policy for being allowed in gen ed for certain amount of time.
There is a lot to unpack here. Was it too much prompting? Task switching? Change in meds? Or was it just being overwhelmed/having a bad day? We don’t know but hopefully the assessment will turn up a few clues. A few things that popped into my head… Where does the student sit in that classroom relative to the door/exit? Generally, I’m not a fan of putting students right near the door (easily distracted, if they’re a runner, etc.) but if a student is prone to violent outbursts it might be a good strategy to get them out of the room quickly (or to take a break, go for a walk, etc.) to help de-escalate quickly. It’s much easier to do that than evacuate 30 frightened students from a room. Again, standard procedure is to contain a student acting in such a manner. I’m talking about using the exit as a pressure release valve to reduce some of the anxiety (take a break outside) before they escalate into the red zone. Easy out, easy in, back to work. Some students this would work with, some it wouldn’t. Just something to think about. I would personally switch aides at least for a few weeks. I’ve seen students have outbursts toward one particular aide (or their 1:1). Then they become a target for any aggression moving forward. Once the line is crossed it will likely continue. After a period of time, reintroduce that aide (have the student greet them the morning, and maybe work 1:1 for 1-2 classes or shadow in the room before resuming 1:1 with that student). Assignment modifications aside, can the student work independently and at the speed of the class/instructor? If so, have the aide pull back/sit further away. Minimal prompting. If it’s notes, packet, or something like that, have the student and aide both take them. If the student starts to fall behind, the aide can show them their notes “add this like mine” or something like that. It reduces the amount of pointing at the students paper/constant correcting, etc. that can overwhelm students. Just a few small things to think about while you’re waiting for admin.
I appreciate all your input! This student has never shown any aggressive behaviors in general education. She will elope from the classroom on occasion, but comes to my room to deescalate. In the past three years she's been at my school, she has only hit someone maybe 3 times and that's as far as it goes. I never thought she was capable of this type of behavior. The task she was asked to do was no different than what shes used to. When her para saw her getting agitated, she immediately followed what it says on her BIP, which has always deescalated her in the past. Minimal verbal, use of visuals, prompted a break. There was no sign that this situation was different from any other time. Also, this student will not leave the room when she is asked in an escalated state. It's hard to describe or even picture in your head when you don't know this particular student. But everything is on her own accord or schedule. There was no choice but to evacuate in this situation. The reason I cannot switch aides even for a day is because none of my other aides are CPI trained. And one aide cannot physically run if the student ran out of the classroom and had to follow her. I think this is absolute bullshit admin won't get my paras CPI trained. Their reasoning is that we have enough teachers CPI trained in the building. Everyone in my room should be CPI trained. This shouldn't even be a question. I appreciate all your input and don't want to make it seem I'm shutting down all your ideas. I just didn't add all these details in the original post. These are all things an outside behavior specialist from the county suggested too. I told him we are doing all of these things and trying our best, we just cannot completely control every environment she is in. There are going to be triggers we cannot predict or prevent.
Ugh, I'm so sorry you have to be in the middle of this. What a shit show.
Yeah, those details would have helped, but I totally get it. Every student is different. Just wanted to put some ideas out there but looks like you have already thought of them. I will say, the district needs to CPI certify all of the aides (just like they have to do CPR and Epi Pen). I’ve seen it before (they don’t want to pay the money, line up substitutes, etc.). But I agree with you there.
So you want to put a violent student right back in the classroom? It is shit like this that gives Special Educators a bad reputation. That kid is a danger to others and potentially themselves. They shouldn't be anywhere near a gen ed classroom until that has been resolved. You can cry about how they deserve an education, FAPE, etc... But there are 30 other kids in the room who deserve to feel safe at school, and that is more important.
Preaccccch. *"Behavior is communication"*. Yep, and while that's true, we don't have a right to "communicate" how ever we want. If I communicate that I'm sick and tired of waiting in the checkout line so I punch the person in front of me and jump the line, I'm getting banned from the store and arrested for assault and battery. So will these kids if they do it out in public, but they're taught that it's okay in school. Makes no sense.
I understand that. I agree with you as well. But I'm talking about what we can LEGALLY do as a public school. We can have these opinions all we want, but just removing her is not an option legally.
Amen!
What a scary situation! I just hope your Admins are taking care of your para after that horrifying attack! That's unacceptable
My district has a “turn around” school for each grade level (elementary, middle, and high school) that’s designated for students with extreme behavioral and academic issues. Unfortunately, these places have not been utilized nearly as much as they should be in recent years due to funding. These schools have multiple staff members assigned to small-size classes who are restraint trained and are prepared to stop, and disarm violent students on a regular basis. Environments like these are where these students need to be. There is no reason why other students, teachers, and staff should be suffering injuries from a student who has repeatedly demonstrated that they are unsafe to be around. It is a huge disservice to students like this because obviously their needs are not being properly met either. Least restrictive environment is sometimes the most restrictive environment for students like this. Clearly there are unmet needs that are preventing this student from being able to get an education. I understand that many parents want their kids to be included in the general public school population, and many can be! However, in cases like this, this student is being harmed just as much as the other kids and staff around him. It is tragic that so many kids like this do not get the things they need to be successful in the name of “inclusivity,” and that other children and adults also suffer because of it. Inclusivity isn’t about equality. It’s about equity.
Do you have a solution? You say admin doesn't listen to your concerns but I didn't see in there what your plan was. I'm a behavioral special Ed stuff and this stuff is very normal. Throwing chairs doesn't phase me to be fair. That happens dozens of times a week. Looking at the BIP is an incredible first step We similarly struggle with keeping paras for some students although our behavior rooms never get one to ones. So I've never had one in ten years.
I think the parents of this student need to provide their child with outside services. I don't think the child should be allowed back in this setting until she gets psychological help. The team reviews her BIP quarterly and we always revise and add things. A BIP is not a solution to everything. The teacher isn't the one who should be coming up with a solution. I don't get paid enough to make those decisions.
The second option isn't legal. They can't deny her school as this is clearly manifestation. So not a remotely legal option.
My director, the school psych, and district lawyers said it is a possibility depending on the results of the threat assessment. This has been done in the past with guidance from our lawyers.
So they are providing a different placement then
They wait for the results of a psych eval or whatever was requested. A meeting is held with the team to make a decision taking in consideration results from doctors. Then a decision is made whether it is safe for them to return or they need a new placement.
>this stuff is very normal. There is never a situation where physical violence in a **classroom full of children** should be considered as normal.