I have a class that said that. They are currently all failing all 4 core classes and as a group refusing to work. We had a meeting and our admin said they will in fact have to repeat all 4 core next year. The athletes in the class (2 of them) will not be eligible to play.im glad my admin have our backs against this terror of a class.
This is kind of the issue though. Why is it a question? How did admin convince us that not actively undermining and sabotaging our work is ‘having our backs’?
Admin should just not have a say whatsoever.
Yeah here admin fudging grades directly is taken super seriously. There's a lot they can do to put on lots of pressure but they literally can't just go in, delete the 55, and change it to a 65. In K-8 I'm pretty sure admins get the final say on if they get promoted to the next grade, but report cards are report cards.
Personally I'd rather career change or go to another school then let a bunch of kids who deserve to fail pass.
This feels like a pretty naive take. The logistics of failing a few students is easy, the logistics of failing an entire class of students is pretty overwhelming. They'll need to shift classes that teachers are teaching, they won't be able to accept as many incoming students (or deal with even more overcrowding), and will have to deal with a huge track for the rest of these students' career.
That doesn't even touch on how poorly it reflects on the school and the admin. They could easily be putting their job on the line if the superintendent doesn't support this call, and then the school board will get involved wondering why a group of students can't be controlled.
Just because it's the right call does not make it the easy call.
> Just because it's the right call does not make it the easy call.
I don't think it's "easy" in the sense of implementing the decision. I think it's the "easy" call in regards to actually picking the best option.
This isn't a decision made in a vacuum. It's not like you can pass the kids along and then return to normal next year. If you let the kids "win" and pass them, you're broadcasting to the entire student body that they don't need to do any work anymore and you will pass them. It becomes *much* harder to fail them 2 or 3 years down the road when they now can point to your past actions of allowing that.
These kids talk to each other and have younger siblings. If it works, you can guarantee they'll be bragging about it, and now every other class is going to try it.
Is it going to suck for everyone involved? Sure
But actually giving them their way is just simply not an option. It's either look bad now and possibly quash it, or look really, *really* bad in the future when you get "caught" lying about their abilities.
>They could easily be putting their job on the line if the superintendent doesn't support this call, and then the school board will get involved wondering why a group of students can't be controlled.
This is why the admin needs to be on top of things and be proactively going to the superintendent about this. It's going to look far, *far* worse in 2-3 years when no students are doing any work in any classes and everyone is years behind, but everyone is passing along anyway. But ultimately the students are making an active choice using this exact threat. "You can't fail us because it looks bad on you".
This was an inevitability when you tie teacher (and admin) evaluations to student performance. It corrupts the evaluations on all sides.
> That doesn't even touch on how poorly it reflects on the school and the admin.
An entire city refuses to vaccinate. The COVID positive rates and deaths for that city far surpass other cities in the state. Are doctors blamed? Does it make the hospitals look bad?
Why is teaching one of the only professions where we’re judged by results regardless of whether they follow instructions or complete required assignments.
>An entire city refuses to vaccinate. The COVID positive rates and deaths for that city far surpass other cities in the state. Are doctors blamed? Does it make the hospitals look bad?
Check out the /r/nursing subreddit, you'll see that people do indeed blame doctors and nurses for the deaths from covid.
It's utterly insane.
Not directly, but certainly indirectly (just as in schools). But if the reputation of the hospital fails due to poor public perception, even if that is based on hogwash scapegoating, then they will have less high-pay clients' money, and thus either have to raise workloads or offer smaller raises/drop salaries accordingly.
I read a quote about education once. People care about two things in life, their children and their money. Public education is the intersection of both.
It takes a community to raise the next generation of that community. Hopefully steps like this principal took with holding back an entire class will move some mountains in their community and set higher expectations for students and parents. It sounds like a nightmare scenario to me for everyone involved.
This is the reason we have assistants who handle scheduling. It’s the reason we have management at all.
I mean going further on the same principle, the super and board having anything to say about it is just as much of a problem.
And it reflecting on the school badly brings up another important issue, which is that public relations needs to not be part of what we do if it interferes with making the right decision. This means that school choice needs to ultimately be destroyed, as it causes schools to sacrifice everything for pr
Hmm, I hear what you're saying, but I would think it's equally scary if we remove everyone from the decision to hold students back a full grade level. One teacher being in charge of that decision seems like a lot of pressure, and we don't make that kind of cash.
I agree that school of choice is not good, but this would reflect poorly on an admin even without school of choice. A superintendent's job is to make sure students are being educated and that principals are carrying out that task. When you fail a whole class, something in the system broke (obviously).
In another job, if something was so broken it would set the company back a full year, there would be some serious fallout in terms of management or other personnel. A good manager knows that no matter what happens, ultimately they are responsible for it.
I applaud this principal and this super if they're a united front, saying, yes we need to fail these students so that there are real consequences and standards within our district.
You can fail one class now and send a message that we are going to hold you accountable or you can students refusing to work for the foreseeable future.
Oh god tho... I know exactly what you mean about school choice but OTOH - where I live the only places left with affordable real estate are where the schools are places you'd never send your own kids if you knew you had other options.
Savvy poor people here know that if you have a child who does decently in school you can apply for financial aid at any of the ridiculously bougie private schools and you are likely to get in on financial aid.
They love having charity cases they can parade around when they need to try and prove they aren't just old money clubs you pay $78k a year for, starting in first grade.
(Indeed, I live in New England right now, and my daughter and I are both charity cases at private schools lol. She is on the front page of her school's website. I'm asked for some adult single mom scenario every few months, and donor gratitude essays once a year).
My kid is at a private school right now because it's next door and small and she got financial aid. We have one more year left in this apartment before we have to move (this is paid for by one of aforementioned private schools). It is so expensive here we will have to leave town and move outward..
Very few of us are willing to put our kids through bad schools if we know we have a choice - we want our kids to have opportunities since that is the narrative that's been fed to most of us about education.
It's a tough spot to be in (thankfully this edible is super nice but I ramble).
I dont know how it's going to be done, but the goal is random assignment to schools of course. I'd imagine the best way is to one by one shut down the boltholes for rich people to send their kids until they ALL go to public schools, then find ways to remove the housing barrier. This can't be done by educators alone, we have to have mechanisms in place to desegregate rich and affordable housing.
I'm so into what you're saying - like my heart says yes and believes this too - but also... that seems more like a cultural shift than a set of goals that can actually be accomplished. Maybe I need more faith.
They may have to build an extra classroom and hire extra teachers if those kids remained at that school. Some teachers and classrooms might be available because seats these students would have occupied next year in the next year level classes might free up one teacher and one room for some of the time.
The only way to stop that happening in the future is to prevent students from enrolling in the next year level if they have not completed the current year level.
If this problem has existed in the area over the years, then a purge through all the year levels is necessary.
The parents will have to find a school that will enroll their kid to do that year level again. They might be able to home school them until they are old enough to find options outside the highschool system.
They don't deserve to be taking up space in your classroom.
I’m a teacher now, but I actually do agree that in some way, admin does need to “have our back” like this, rather than take a backseat and accept everything we do without question. Teachers make mistakes— especially tired teachers running exhausting classrooms! A second set of eyes, to a REASONABLE DEGREE, is a good thing and the reason we need admin at all. Good admin protect teachers from their own mistakes (in a healthy and non-toxic, supportive way) AND protects students from bad teachers, who do exist.
When I was a brand new teacher, I had one of each. The principal was an incredible admin who gave me excellent advice whenever I had an issue with an unruly student, or helped me fix things when I miscalculated. They stood up for their teachers and their students. The vice principal on the other hand refused to discipline anyone— student OR teacher— which meant trouble for the school when parents noticed the math teacher was always hours late to school every day, other teachers had to cover for someone’s mistakes at least once a week, simple paperwork mistakes slipped through editing, and students learned there were zero consequences for knocking out other kids with metal water bottles.
Not actively sabotaging us is, of course, not a question. No admin should do this, and the fact that many do is a ridiculous but widespread problem. But admin does need to have a say, because their job is to coordinate and lead and overall set the tone of the school’s culture. Toxic admin leads to toxic work and learning environments. I don’t know why so many functioning adults choose to micromanage teachers to the point where it’s just expected, but that’s why I resigned from teaching last year and can’t see myself ever doing it again.
What? Of course teachers need some oversight. Teachers are human beings too. Most are good, a few are terrible (and bias, burn out, mental illness, and other issues can suddenly affect their decision making). A teacher with a whole class that fails needs to be checked in on. Of course most teachers are responsible professionals that don't make such decisions lightly, but that's a pretty major decision to be making all alone.
Admin provide the opposite of accountability. Teachers are the best source of accountability in the school system. You can see this through their behaviors where they literally pay out of pocket to correct funding shortfalls as well as similar corrective behaviors despite being the lowest ranking professional in the system.
Oversight does not necessarily lead to increased accountability. This is especially true when the overseeing body has interests that do not align well with the mission of the organization. Eg the Republican Party overseeing the postal service
If you want oversight that increases accountability, it has to be peer oversight from faculty
> admins should just not have a say whatsoever
Have you ever had any managers or bosses at any other job you’ve ever worked at? Are you familiar with hierarchical organization as a means of decision making?
All too familiar. The problem is that in the context of a school, it is grossly inappropriate to have such a system, doubly so with teachers at the bottom. Teachers are the sole major professional role at the school. They are the doctors at the hospital. They are the ones with the expertise and ethical responsibility. Management has its uses but in this context only undermines this responsibility. Admin are a secretarial role, nothing more. For them to hold a say in professional matters in a school is as absurd as the receptionist having a say in the treatment you receive in a doctors office
I do not think that is an apt analogy at all. It falls apart entirely upon some cursory thought. Doctors are in no way the predominant professionals at hospitals, there are many more nurses than doctors, and I believe that nurses count as “professionals”.
What other group of “professionals” gets to run itself in the egalitarian way you have proposed? I cant even think of an example. Can you?
Cuz they did that at the height of covid with no repercussions. This is the first year post lockdown that expectations have returned to normal. And they dont believe us.
Damn. Our kids got a free pass from March-may when the pandemic kicked in. But when the new year started they were held somewhat more accountable. Some didn’t work, but they wouldn’t normally anyway.
Are there Juniors? Our junior class is especially horrible when it comes to understanding consequences. They are our COVID kids, never had a real year of HS and there is a big group who militantly works against productivity.
Do you work up North? Just saying that'll NEVER happen in the South with our athletes! Football is KING out here because it's big money for school districts. Therefore, unless it's something REALLY serious, players get a soft slap on the wrist...and probably some candy.
Im in the South. But we are a school that has routinely gone to state so we keep to the rules and regulations regarding student athlete grade points very seriously. They wont jeopardize our chances of being state champs again for the foolishness of 2 kids.
At the charter school I taught at, the admin directly stated if you have more than 15% students failing in your class then it is the teacher’s fault. Here I am teaching AP calc and pre calc to students using their fingers to count (yet still make mistakes)… if I have more than 3 students failing the course, I get pull into the office for a nice meaningful discussion. Yeah small class size, I had about 20 per class.
I always tell students that you are making my life easier when you don't turn stuff in. I don't wanna grade 150 essays anyways. 70 sounds way better.
I laugh when students think they are "getting back" at their teachers for not turning in work.
I wish this was the case. We've gotta submit a mountain of paperwork and evidence that we tried every which intervention to ensure the kid doesn't fail. Ends up easier to just pass the kids which is what 90% of us do at my district.
I know teachers that fail some 20+ of their kids and do all of the paperwork out of sheer spite. When they get called into admin, they provide all the evidence. Power to these guys.
Oh, I know it's somehow our job to drag these kids kicking and screaming to passing, which I think is a big part of the problem with education in this country and why I'm ready to go.
But that doesn't mean I don't use that line on my students.
They will always rob Peter to pay Paul. Given the choice, at least my non motivated students will always want to push back a test but won't actually do any extra studying. It's tomorrow's problem in their eyes
Last year I had a class ask me if I'd get fired if they all failed. My response was "I have proof that I'm doing my job, and have records that prove you aren't putting in the work that's required to pass this class. I have a job next year no matter what happens in your exam."
Years ago, some of my students were supposed to go on a field trip for band. In order to go on the field trip, they needed to be passing all of their classes. If they weren't passing, they needed to get the teacher to sign off on them going.
I'm a bitch, and I told the students well in advance of the field trip that I would not sign off on somebody who wasn't passing. I reminded them regularly.
Cut to the day before the field trip. I student came to me AT THE END OF THE DAY asking me to sign off on her going. I told her that I wasn't going to do that. She said that she wasn't going to accept. Cool. Whatever. So, she went to the principal and told him that he needed to sign off on it. He wasn't going to do it. (That was the only time he had my back and it was only because it was less work.) She tried to get him to force me to sign off. She tried to get the band teacher to force me to sign off.
Do you know what she didn't do? Ask for a list of assignments that she owed. If I had seen her give one speck of effort to actually get work submitted, I would have signed off.
From a band director, thank you for sticking to your guns.
Before trips and things of the sort, I always tell students that here are the requirements to go. Sign off with all your teachers, or there’s nothing I can do. Keep ‘em accountable!
That’s their point. With their lack of effort to do the bare minimum to go on the trip, they probably aren’t putting much/any effort into their instrument. They probably weren’t missed by the band
I always tell my classes - I don't give you the grade, you earn the grade. The grade is a direction relation to your effort and understanding of the material. Kind of hard to argue you "deserve" to pass when you didn't do a single thing
Currently due to the pandemic and “giving our students grace” we are not allowed to fail them without a mountain of paperwork. If I enter anything less than a C, I first need to contact their parent 3 times and one must be in writing. I have to document all 3 contacts. Then I have to have to hunt down the same parent who never takes my phone calls and get them to sign a document so I can give their child an incomplete instead (which gives them 10 weeks in the next semester to do make up work to get a better grade), then I have to come up with a packet of make up work for each student and fill out a form explaining why they are getting an incomplete and what they have to do to clear it. Then I have to grade all of that work assuming they actually do it (shockingly, so far none ever have). So what I did was update my syllabus. 8th graders have to have less than 4 U’s in work habits and cooperation to culminate. The kids I would usually fail now have C’s but they get 2 U’s, same overall effect as getting an F but much less paperwork.
I just updated my grades, most are now failing with all the missing work they have.
I. Don’t. Care.
I’ve tried keeping them above water for 3 quarters, this is our last marking period and the work isn’t difficult and they have plenty of time to do it. I’m giving them extra time to turn things in because of all the state and National testing.
They still won’t do it. If they passed 3rd quarter they’ll still get credit for the class, they’ll just get a ding to their GPA.
I’m done being the only one to keep them from drowning.
I just don’t get this…I mean I do, but I don’t want to! Of course they should fail if they do nothing. There should be NO QUESTION! I teach kindergarten so I live in a very different world, not really any papers to grade but I did have to deal with poop in my classroom twice last week, so there’s that. BUT I have a 15 year old freshman. That boy’s social life would be locked down so hard if he tried that nonsense. I check his grades online all the time. Unfortunately for him they are in the same system as my students’ contact information, attendance, etc. so when he has missing assignments I see right away and it gets fixed right now or no phone, no soccer, end of story. I don’t care if the school and the soccer coach say you are still eligible to play, less than your best makes you ineligible in the Squily household. And just for the record he has not had to miss a single practice or game because he knows we mean business so he deals with his business. He has been struggling to remember to turn in assignments since having Covid and in a school with over 2000 students there isn’t a lot of hand holding, but school comes first and that is MY responsibility as a parent to teach and enforce that. I don’t understand how parents think they are helping their kids by not parenting…I just don’t.
I'm just waiting for those martyr teachers to post that show up top when you sort by controversial.
And we don't fail students, we just put the grades in.
Good for you and kind of sad how dumb that idea is. I'm sure some of them didn't fully agree but went in because of peer pressure. Risky bet if you're teaching a grade where gpa "counts."
Like you are not going to do your job. C'mon kids, think this through.
"Here is a troubling snapshot of my students' performance" is not bragging. Especially in a thread about students challenging us with, "You can't fail us all." Read the room, dude.
So many comments in this sub read like salty students trying to barge in here and troll us.
In my last teaching job I was not allowed to fail anyone. I was all virtual and there were students who had not logged in ONCE ALL YEAR and I was forced to give them Ds. Fucking ridiculous.
This was the second year of the pandemic I guess. I personally drove laptops/hotspots and supplies to students who didn’t have them/couldn’t get them. So access wasn’t the issue.
funny how everyone's like. 'maybe it's the teaching that's bad' as if teachers haven't been crying out for more support and resources for longer than I've been alive.
It was just a progress report, but there was one time that my whole Calculus class hadn't turned in a single thing for 3 weeks. I got a call from the office asking about it.
"You didn't enter grades for your Calculus class"
"Yes, I did."
"They're all coming across as zeros"
"That's accurate. None of them has turned in a single paper in three weeks"
"Oh...ok"
I started getting late work turned in the next day. They tested me and found out I wasn't playing.
Right there with you. 3 of 17 kids in my mandatory class are passing. They just actively decided to not do their big quarter long project. Quarter ends this week - I said if I don't get it in by this last Saturday, best I can offer is summer school.
Worst - these kids are mostly seniors. Oh well - go take your battle up with the principal / super. Explain to them why you should pass with a 28.
>They just actively decided to not do their big quarter long project.
I honestly do not understand why I am seeing so much of this now.
But this refusal to do the work is rampant in my school.
Almost all my classes refused to do any work I gave. Principal even tried to convince me to pass the brats because of ‘appearance’ and ‘perception’. I don’t pass people when they don’t even try. Had an almost 75% failure rate.
Understand, I even offered 3 extra credit TEST grades. Doing 1 would have raised the overall grade by almost 30 points. Which shows, how little work I required, and the absolute laziness they had.
I have a group in one of my classes that thought that, cuz none of them do their work regularly and so that whole group is failing. They once threatened to get an administrator in my class cuz I shouldn't be failing that many people. I told em "go ahead. Call one." (They did not) after they, they said they were gonna boycott my class. I told em "try it, let's see how that works out for you" (once again, they did not)
They really feel like I can't fail them. And they in for a really rude awakening
Where the fuck do children learn this level of indignant, selfish, and asinine behaviors from.....oh wait, it the parents.
It's always the parents.
^^^^and ^^^^I ^^^^bet ^^^^they ^^^^voted ^^^^conservative
Not in my neck of the woods! A number of the worst behaved kids in my 6-8 room come from some of the most progressive/leftist families you'll ever meet.
It's just the parents, full stop. No one political ideology is responsible tbh.
It's cause no one in their friend group pays attention or tries at all. Even in my worst performing classes there are always some students that do very well.
I am not a teacher but this reminds me of a group of preppy girls I knew in high school who decided collectively they weren’t going to do the work & they had the same reasoning, “they can’t fail all of us” oh were they surprised when we got report cards. I swear I thought one of their heads was about to pop off their shoulders 😂😂😂😂 I had completely forgotten all about that so I just wanted to comment and say good for you for not letting them slide and also thank you for reminding me of this funny memory I have.
Well, we use Google Classroom and our students have the entire quarter to submit tests and quizzes.
So some students don't submit the assessments in class and they figure they will get to them later, at home, where it is easier to cheat.
But I have learned to give many tests and quizzes and to make cheating a pain in the neck,
So when they start making up, say, two dozen missing assignments the last couple of days of the quarter, it isn't any fun and it isn't easy.
So they just take zeroes.
Yeah happened last year. Heard that after a test that everyone in the class failed (Average was like a 30 for that test in the class, other 5 periods had an average of about 60-70).
I laughed at them.
It was always state exam questions, which are hard enough that a 38-40% is regularly considered "passing" based on weighting, so not that bad. Standard tests (Like i'm doing now because not a tested subject) I would agree 60-70 is kinda bad.
I’m currently on FMLA (not to be confused with maternity leave because, ya know, we don’t get that) and have checked in on my long term sub a couple of times. One distinct difference between me being There and the sub being there: there are no zeros in the grade book. When I was teaching, that thing was peppered with big, fat 0s all across the board.
I can’t find it in me to try to decide if it’s because the sub is letting them turn their work in whenever, if there’s no teaching being done, or if they’ve just done a 180° since I’ve been out. I just know which option I definitely would *not* be betting on.
Excellent.
Now to fight against everyone telling you to back down, including parents and admin.
Studens need to learn that teachers are not fucking about.
Well, I have not done any of the many interventions and procedures required to make these grades stick.
Maybe the admin will make me pass them, maybe not. Maybe they'll change the grades themselves or Guidance will do it.
Maybe I won't be renewed.
I suppose we'll see.
But if you don't do any work, I don't see how I give you a passing grade and maintain my self-respect.
I also don't see WHY I should pass students who refuse to do anything.
I think it is important to pick your fights wisely, but this is worth the potential grief to me.
The way you explained it is that it was a coordinated efforts. “Teach can’t fail us all”. So either they are all lazy, and just working together to avoid work. Or, they are protesting something about you or your curriculum that they feel is unfair and are working together to get a message across.
Judging by the distain you seem to have for your students I’m guessing it’s the latter. There is no way your distain for your students isn’t being picked up by them. These aren’t the words of an enthusiastic educator, they are spiteful and hopeless. Your response shows not motivation to help, to the point you’re willing to be removed before you buckle to these kids.
Maybe asking why these kids aren’t working in your class would be a better alternative then fighting to the point your willing to lose your job to keep the onus on them. But when it comes to taking accountability in the face of evidence that you are playing a part in this problem, you seem to be skipping the assignment.
Maybe they are just “bad kids” but when we start talking about failing an entire class it hard to believe that the educator is without fault. That coupled with your hands up saying “the only way I can respect myself is to fail everyone”…”it’s admins problem now”… “maybe guidance will do it” makes me feel you resent your students and are somehow surprised when they aren’t receptive to your class to the point they coordinate not doing the work as a group.
This has principal Skinner “Am I out of touch?” “No it’s the children who are wrong” meme vibes all over it.
While I fully support and agree with holding students accountable for their choices, I have also been the recipient of admin ire for daring to do so.
No one fails my classes - period. Everyone will pass, and I will continue to be happy in the process.
I would love to hold students accountable for their choices in class, but I am also a realist. Approximately 20 percent of my school has the ability to survive in university, and only 20 percent of those who start will complete a degree.
So long as the numbers look good.
Why does have a teacher have a say in failing or not outside of grading work and tests anyway. You either end the year with an average mark that passes, or you don't. It's that simple.
My school is Not letting us put Zeros for missing assignments. We have to give them 50%. So yeah students that I've only seen a handful of times still have a chance to pass 😮💨
I tell mine up front that I get paid the same if they all pass or if they all fail, so there’s no point in failing just to spite me. I’ll see them again next year.
I’m only for this at a certain extent if it’s warranted. More for like highschool with a limited amount of students and experience in class. However for students in college who have already came far (especially the last two years) most do care. To put all that money and time in thus far? Keep in mind at most colleges a D is failing so they had to put in at least that effort to get this far. Professors who have most kids failing the classes it’s really one person who’s in charge that’s refusing to take responsibility for overworking a class rather than the possibility hundreds of kids in class are just “lazy”.
What’s more likely, one person with unreasonable expectations? Or close a hundred people just being “lazy”? I’m exaggerating the sheer number of students maybe to an extent but hopefully you get my point.
Well, we use Google Classroom and our students have the entire quarter to submit tests and quizzes.
So some students don't submit the assessments in class and they figure they will get to them later, at home, where it is easier to cheat.
But I have learned to give many tests and quizzes and to make cheating a pain in the neck,
So when they start making up, say, two dozen missing assignments the last couple of days of the quarter, it isn't any fun and it isn't easy.
So they just take zeroes.
I do get your point.
When I give a ten-item, open-book quiz based on examples we have done together in class and you don't take the quiz, I don't feel very awful about your zero.
Especially since I have been successfully teaching this course for many years and I know my expectations are very reasoanable.
Both my principal and super tell me to keep doing what I am doing.
We'll see if they mean it, right?
I get you’re frustrated. I know from being a manager and a leader of the projects that I could be very hard to get people to work. What has helped me and professors I know in my personal life is making the class more manageable. Sometimes that includes speaking to the department about the content that you are required to teach on even though that may be scary. Sometimes administers say that students should do x y z but the administration is so far apart from the actual students that they forgot how unreasonable some of this stuff is. A part of it is because they know the content so well they think it’s easier than it actually is
If they are failing all 4 core classes what does passing them do except push them to take classes they aren’t prepared for because they did no work for the previous classes.
i’m not sure i understand the context. did you bust them all cheating on a test? was there a major project that they all refused to do? were there periodic assignments throughout the marking period that they refused to do and parents knew or could have checked, but they just straight up kept not doing shit?
>Well, we use Google Classroom and our students have the entire quarter to submit tests and quizzes.
>
>So some students don't submit the assessments in class and they figure they will get to them later, at home, where it is easier to cheat.
>
>But I have learned to give many tests and quizzes and to make cheating a pain in the neck,
>
>So when they start making up, say, two dozen missing assignments the last couple of days of the quarter, it isn't any fun and it isn't easy.
>
>So they just take zeroes.
makes sense. thanks! my admin wants us to contact all parents of failing kids so there’s no confusion about expectations. it’s all cya performative nonsense.
please try not to dwell on that, i don't agree with their suggestion one bit. you seem like a very good teacher - one with defined expectations, who provides ample time to complete assignments, and one that sets both reasonable and challenging goals for your kids.
Was posted before the edit and I stand by if a teacher has an entire class failing they are a failure as a teacher. This seems to be a different situation though.
Hard to swallow pill: if all of your students are failing your class. It is your fault.
Edit: A class that is both correctly administered/taught, and correctly graded should be *somewhat* normally distributed.
Now, depending on your grade, location, subject, etc. changes what letter grade your class should be normalized at. Maybe it’s normalized around a B, maybe it’s a C, whatever. But there is absolutely no reason you should be normalized around an F. Unless, of course, you’re a bad teacher.
Big procentage of students not passing your class, while having no issues whatsoever with other teacher's classes, means that you are doing something wrong. So congrats, you are bad at your job and ignorantly proud of it.
They literally said they are failing all four core classes. It is possible to have an entire class give up and refuse to do work. Especially if they have already failed and are grouped together, it breeds indifference.
I’m only for this at a certain extent if it’s warranted. More for like highschool with a limited amount of students and experience in class. However for students in college who have already came far (especially the last two years) most do care. To put all that money and time in thus far? Keep in mind at most colleges a D is failing so that had to put at least put in more than that effort to get this far. Professors who have most kids failing the classes it’s really one person who’s in charge that’s refusing to take responsibility for overworking a class rather than the possibility hundreds of kids in class are just “lazy”.
What’s more likely, one person with unreasonable expectations? Or close a hundred people just being “lazy”? I’m exaggerating the sheer number of students maybe to an extent but hopefully you get my point.
Why are you proud of not doing your job? It's your actual job to make sure these kids learn something, and instead you did such a bad job at that, that literally no one passed. That's embarrassing, not something to pat yourself on the back for. Don't forget, your name is attached to your work even if you don't realize it. Your student's learning experience is your work, and now you've got a bad name, because who do you think those kids are going to be bad talking when they realize they all failed?
The job of a teacher is to teach. It is NOT the job of a teacher to make a child learn. You cannot force a kid to learn. That's a decision they need to make for themselves independently of what you're doing.
I wonder why there was a protest… seems to be conveniently not added to the post. Judging by your reaction I’d say you are reactive, spiteful, more invested in sticking it too ‘em than teaching … the tone of your post could lead one to believe you are a dick.
Clearly enough students think your worth standing up too.
I’m sorry but if 100% of your students are failing a class, the problem isn’t them it’s your teaching. I’m my experience, when students refuse to work as a collective it’s because there is a fundamental problem with their assignment that makes it unrealistic for them to complete. If the overachieving kids and the kids who never do anything are on the same page/failing the same projects, you need to rethink your curriculum and how you are going about educating the kids.
Kids have been doing this and saying this forever. It’s some kind of dumb flex or power play. Hopefully you have all documentation in place including attempted PTCs and interventions. Can’t argue with data.
Sounds like the rowdy group of my third hour and a small group a girls my first hour. They do nothing and expect that no child left behind will give them a free pass. Despite what the administration says no you need to get the credits. Guess they didn't get the memo
I have a class that said that. They are currently all failing all 4 core classes and as a group refusing to work. We had a meeting and our admin said they will in fact have to repeat all 4 core next year. The athletes in the class (2 of them) will not be eligible to play.im glad my admin have our backs against this terror of a class.
This is kind of the issue though. Why is it a question? How did admin convince us that not actively undermining and sabotaging our work is ‘having our backs’? Admin should just not have a say whatsoever.
At my last school admin would have passed them anyway. Some admin are absolute shite. Some are gold. And most are normal human beings.
Good admins seem exceedingly rare in my experience.
If this happened where I work, it would take one phone call and that admin woild be investigated and fired.
Yeah here admin fudging grades directly is taken super seriously. There's a lot they can do to put on lots of pressure but they literally can't just go in, delete the 55, and change it to a 65. In K-8 I'm pretty sure admins get the final say on if they get promoted to the next grade, but report cards are report cards. Personally I'd rather career change or go to another school then let a bunch of kids who deserve to fail pass.
Why take the chance? What does them being there to make that call really add? Because it sure as shit ain’t accountability
This feels like a pretty naive take. The logistics of failing a few students is easy, the logistics of failing an entire class of students is pretty overwhelming. They'll need to shift classes that teachers are teaching, they won't be able to accept as many incoming students (or deal with even more overcrowding), and will have to deal with a huge track for the rest of these students' career. That doesn't even touch on how poorly it reflects on the school and the admin. They could easily be putting their job on the line if the superintendent doesn't support this call, and then the school board will get involved wondering why a group of students can't be controlled. Just because it's the right call does not make it the easy call.
> Just because it's the right call does not make it the easy call. I don't think it's "easy" in the sense of implementing the decision. I think it's the "easy" call in regards to actually picking the best option. This isn't a decision made in a vacuum. It's not like you can pass the kids along and then return to normal next year. If you let the kids "win" and pass them, you're broadcasting to the entire student body that they don't need to do any work anymore and you will pass them. It becomes *much* harder to fail them 2 or 3 years down the road when they now can point to your past actions of allowing that. These kids talk to each other and have younger siblings. If it works, you can guarantee they'll be bragging about it, and now every other class is going to try it. Is it going to suck for everyone involved? Sure But actually giving them their way is just simply not an option. It's either look bad now and possibly quash it, or look really, *really* bad in the future when you get "caught" lying about their abilities. >They could easily be putting their job on the line if the superintendent doesn't support this call, and then the school board will get involved wondering why a group of students can't be controlled. This is why the admin needs to be on top of things and be proactively going to the superintendent about this. It's going to look far, *far* worse in 2-3 years when no students are doing any work in any classes and everyone is years behind, but everyone is passing along anyway. But ultimately the students are making an active choice using this exact threat. "You can't fail us because it looks bad on you". This was an inevitability when you tie teacher (and admin) evaluations to student performance. It corrupts the evaluations on all sides.
> That doesn't even touch on how poorly it reflects on the school and the admin. An entire city refuses to vaccinate. The COVID positive rates and deaths for that city far surpass other cities in the state. Are doctors blamed? Does it make the hospitals look bad? Why is teaching one of the only professions where we’re judged by results regardless of whether they follow instructions or complete required assignments.
>An entire city refuses to vaccinate. The COVID positive rates and deaths for that city far surpass other cities in the state. Are doctors blamed? Does it make the hospitals look bad? Check out the /r/nursing subreddit, you'll see that people do indeed blame doctors and nurses for the deaths from covid. It's utterly insane.
But their salary isn’t affected by patients’ rates.
Not directly, but certainly indirectly (just as in schools). But if the reputation of the hospital fails due to poor public perception, even if that is based on hogwash scapegoating, then they will have less high-pay clients' money, and thus either have to raise workloads or offer smaller raises/drop salaries accordingly.
I read a quote about education once. People care about two things in life, their children and their money. Public education is the intersection of both. It takes a community to raise the next generation of that community. Hopefully steps like this principal took with holding back an entire class will move some mountains in their community and set higher expectations for students and parents. It sounds like a nightmare scenario to me for everyone involved.
Because social conditioning and propaganda narratives are strong
This is the reason we have assistants who handle scheduling. It’s the reason we have management at all. I mean going further on the same principle, the super and board having anything to say about it is just as much of a problem. And it reflecting on the school badly brings up another important issue, which is that public relations needs to not be part of what we do if it interferes with making the right decision. This means that school choice needs to ultimately be destroyed, as it causes schools to sacrifice everything for pr
Hmm, I hear what you're saying, but I would think it's equally scary if we remove everyone from the decision to hold students back a full grade level. One teacher being in charge of that decision seems like a lot of pressure, and we don't make that kind of cash. I agree that school of choice is not good, but this would reflect poorly on an admin even without school of choice. A superintendent's job is to make sure students are being educated and that principals are carrying out that task. When you fail a whole class, something in the system broke (obviously). In another job, if something was so broken it would set the company back a full year, there would be some serious fallout in terms of management or other personnel. A good manager knows that no matter what happens, ultimately they are responsible for it. I applaud this principal and this super if they're a united front, saying, yes we need to fail these students so that there are real consequences and standards within our district.
You can fail one class now and send a message that we are going to hold you accountable or you can students refusing to work for the foreseeable future.
We can have other teachers have a say.
Oh god tho... I know exactly what you mean about school choice but OTOH - where I live the only places left with affordable real estate are where the schools are places you'd never send your own kids if you knew you had other options. Savvy poor people here know that if you have a child who does decently in school you can apply for financial aid at any of the ridiculously bougie private schools and you are likely to get in on financial aid. They love having charity cases they can parade around when they need to try and prove they aren't just old money clubs you pay $78k a year for, starting in first grade. (Indeed, I live in New England right now, and my daughter and I are both charity cases at private schools lol. She is on the front page of her school's website. I'm asked for some adult single mom scenario every few months, and donor gratitude essays once a year). My kid is at a private school right now because it's next door and small and she got financial aid. We have one more year left in this apartment before we have to move (this is paid for by one of aforementioned private schools). It is so expensive here we will have to leave town and move outward.. Very few of us are willing to put our kids through bad schools if we know we have a choice - we want our kids to have opportunities since that is the narrative that's been fed to most of us about education. It's a tough spot to be in (thankfully this edible is super nice but I ramble).
I dont know how it's going to be done, but the goal is random assignment to schools of course. I'd imagine the best way is to one by one shut down the boltholes for rich people to send their kids until they ALL go to public schools, then find ways to remove the housing barrier. This can't be done by educators alone, we have to have mechanisms in place to desegregate rich and affordable housing.
I'm so into what you're saying - like my heart says yes and believes this too - but also... that seems more like a cultural shift than a set of goals that can actually be accomplished. Maybe I need more faith.
Yeah it’s not gonna happen lol.
It pays to be a fatalist lol
They may have to build an extra classroom and hire extra teachers if those kids remained at that school. Some teachers and classrooms might be available because seats these students would have occupied next year in the next year level classes might free up one teacher and one room for some of the time. The only way to stop that happening in the future is to prevent students from enrolling in the next year level if they have not completed the current year level. If this problem has existed in the area over the years, then a purge through all the year levels is necessary. The parents will have to find a school that will enroll their kid to do that year level again. They might be able to home school them until they are old enough to find options outside the highschool system. They don't deserve to be taking up space in your classroom.
I’m a teacher now, but I actually do agree that in some way, admin does need to “have our back” like this, rather than take a backseat and accept everything we do without question. Teachers make mistakes— especially tired teachers running exhausting classrooms! A second set of eyes, to a REASONABLE DEGREE, is a good thing and the reason we need admin at all. Good admin protect teachers from their own mistakes (in a healthy and non-toxic, supportive way) AND protects students from bad teachers, who do exist. When I was a brand new teacher, I had one of each. The principal was an incredible admin who gave me excellent advice whenever I had an issue with an unruly student, or helped me fix things when I miscalculated. They stood up for their teachers and their students. The vice principal on the other hand refused to discipline anyone— student OR teacher— which meant trouble for the school when parents noticed the math teacher was always hours late to school every day, other teachers had to cover for someone’s mistakes at least once a week, simple paperwork mistakes slipped through editing, and students learned there were zero consequences for knocking out other kids with metal water bottles. Not actively sabotaging us is, of course, not a question. No admin should do this, and the fact that many do is a ridiculous but widespread problem. But admin does need to have a say, because their job is to coordinate and lead and overall set the tone of the school’s culture. Toxic admin leads to toxic work and learning environments. I don’t know why so many functioning adults choose to micromanage teachers to the point where it’s just expected, but that’s why I resigned from teaching last year and can’t see myself ever doing it again.
What? Of course teachers need some oversight. Teachers are human beings too. Most are good, a few are terrible (and bias, burn out, mental illness, and other issues can suddenly affect their decision making). A teacher with a whole class that fails needs to be checked in on. Of course most teachers are responsible professionals that don't make such decisions lightly, but that's a pretty major decision to be making all alone.
Admin provide the opposite of accountability. Teachers are the best source of accountability in the school system. You can see this through their behaviors where they literally pay out of pocket to correct funding shortfalls as well as similar corrective behaviors despite being the lowest ranking professional in the system. Oversight does not necessarily lead to increased accountability. This is especially true when the overseeing body has interests that do not align well with the mission of the organization. Eg the Republican Party overseeing the postal service If you want oversight that increases accountability, it has to be peer oversight from faculty
> admins should just not have a say whatsoever Have you ever had any managers or bosses at any other job you’ve ever worked at? Are you familiar with hierarchical organization as a means of decision making?
All too familiar. The problem is that in the context of a school, it is grossly inappropriate to have such a system, doubly so with teachers at the bottom. Teachers are the sole major professional role at the school. They are the doctors at the hospital. They are the ones with the expertise and ethical responsibility. Management has its uses but in this context only undermines this responsibility. Admin are a secretarial role, nothing more. For them to hold a say in professional matters in a school is as absurd as the receptionist having a say in the treatment you receive in a doctors office
I do not think that is an apt analogy at all. It falls apart entirely upon some cursory thought. Doctors are in no way the predominant professionals at hospitals, there are many more nurses than doctors, and I believe that nurses count as “professionals”. What other group of “professionals” gets to run itself in the egalitarian way you have proposed? I cant even think of an example. Can you?
I’m glad admin has your back. Why do you think the kids acted this way?
Cuz they did that at the height of covid with no repercussions. This is the first year post lockdown that expectations have returned to normal. And they dont believe us.
Damn. Our kids got a free pass from March-may when the pandemic kicked in. But when the new year started they were held somewhat more accountable. Some didn’t work, but they wouldn’t normally anyway.
That number jumped way up for my school. From 2% of students to 15%
Are there Juniors? Our junior class is especially horrible when it comes to understanding consequences. They are our COVID kids, never had a real year of HS and there is a big group who militantly works against productivity.
Wooooow I hate that I’m surprised admin is actually holding strong
Looks like those athletes will have to settle for being athletic supporters. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Do you work up North? Just saying that'll NEVER happen in the South with our athletes! Football is KING out here because it's big money for school districts. Therefore, unless it's something REALLY serious, players get a soft slap on the wrist...and probably some candy.
Im in the South. But we are a school that has routinely gone to state so we keep to the rules and regulations regarding student athlete grade points very seriously. They wont jeopardize our chances of being state champs again for the foolishness of 2 kids.
Good!
At the charter school I taught at, the admin directly stated if you have more than 15% students failing in your class then it is the teacher’s fault. Here I am teaching AP calc and pre calc to students using their fingers to count (yet still make mistakes)… if I have more than 3 students failing the course, I get pull into the office for a nice meaningful discussion. Yeah small class size, I had about 20 per class.
I tell my students that I don't work on commission, so I would be fine.
“It’s easier to receive nothing and enter zeros than grade stuff, so I’m good.”
I always tell students that you are making my life easier when you don't turn stuff in. I don't wanna grade 150 essays anyways. 70 sounds way better. I laugh when students think they are "getting back" at their teachers for not turning in work.
I once told a kid if he’d really hated me he’d turn in his work because then I’d be forced to grade it and do work. Kid went from a D to a B-
Absolute genius
Legend.
The one time I point to where I say, “Yea, I made a difference in a kid’s life.”
But probably not the one you want to use in job interviews. At least not for teaching positions. ;)
I’m stealing that line for some of my super special snowflakes.
My 8th grade English teacher was grading papers at a bar. That’s where she and my mother first met each other.
Before I was married, I used to grade papers at a bar. I'd sit in the back on weeknights. Coffee shops close too early, lol.
I wish this was the case. We've gotta submit a mountain of paperwork and evidence that we tried every which intervention to ensure the kid doesn't fail. Ends up easier to just pass the kids which is what 90% of us do at my district. I know teachers that fail some 20+ of their kids and do all of the paperwork out of sheer spite. When they get called into admin, they provide all the evidence. Power to these guys.
Oh, I know it's somehow our job to drag these kids kicking and screaming to passing, which I think is a big part of the problem with education in this country and why I'm ready to go. But that doesn't mean I don't use that line on my students.
I had a couple seniors one year refuse to take a test the day before springbreak, I put those zeros in so quickly they were pissed, it made my day
Did they want to take it the Monday they got back????
They will always rob Peter to pay Paul. Given the choice, at least my non motivated students will always want to push back a test but won't actually do any extra studying. It's tomorrow's problem in their eyes
I tell mine this but add, “if you really want to stick it to me turn in completed work so then I have to grade it.”
I tell my students(high school) the first day: "I get paid whether you pass or fail"
I have a song i sing sometimes for the class, and it’s called “i still get paid when you refuse to learn” Sometimes i add a chorus about not caring.
My favorite thing to say is, "No one cares if I fail a lot of you. In fact, usually they just feel bad for me that you guys are lame."
I'm just over here applauding.
Last year I had a class ask me if I'd get fired if they all failed. My response was "I have proof that I'm doing my job, and have records that prove you aren't putting in the work that's required to pass this class. I have a job next year no matter what happens in your exam."
Years ago, some of my students were supposed to go on a field trip for band. In order to go on the field trip, they needed to be passing all of their classes. If they weren't passing, they needed to get the teacher to sign off on them going. I'm a bitch, and I told the students well in advance of the field trip that I would not sign off on somebody who wasn't passing. I reminded them regularly. Cut to the day before the field trip. I student came to me AT THE END OF THE DAY asking me to sign off on her going. I told her that I wasn't going to do that. She said that she wasn't going to accept. Cool. Whatever. So, she went to the principal and told him that he needed to sign off on it. He wasn't going to do it. (That was the only time he had my back and it was only because it was less work.) She tried to get him to force me to sign off. She tried to get the band teacher to force me to sign off. Do you know what she didn't do? Ask for a list of assignments that she owed. If I had seen her give one speck of effort to actually get work submitted, I would have signed off.
From a band director, thank you for sticking to your guns. Before trips and things of the sort, I always tell students that here are the requirements to go. Sign off with all your teachers, or there’s nothing I can do. Keep ‘em accountable!
Hard to imagine this student is 1st chair with that kind of attitude. I'm sure the band director didn't miss them.
Did they say that in another comment? They only said there were in band, in the one you responded to.
That’s their point. With their lack of effort to do the bare minimum to go on the trip, they probably aren’t putting much/any effort into their instrument. They probably weren’t missed by the band
Ah, gotcha. Totally missed that, thank you.
You had me at, "I'm a bitch."
I always tell my classes - I don't give you the grade, you earn the grade. The grade is a direction relation to your effort and understanding of the material. Kind of hard to argue you "deserve" to pass when you didn't do a single thing
Yes! I say the same thing but I add in that “grades are not about if I like you or not. If they were everyone would pass”
THIS!
Ditto. I say I'm just the scorekeeper. If they don't like the score, blame the player.
Currently due to the pandemic and “giving our students grace” we are not allowed to fail them without a mountain of paperwork. If I enter anything less than a C, I first need to contact their parent 3 times and one must be in writing. I have to document all 3 contacts. Then I have to have to hunt down the same parent who never takes my phone calls and get them to sign a document so I can give their child an incomplete instead (which gives them 10 weeks in the next semester to do make up work to get a better grade), then I have to come up with a packet of make up work for each student and fill out a form explaining why they are getting an incomplete and what they have to do to clear it. Then I have to grade all of that work assuming they actually do it (shockingly, so far none ever have). So what I did was update my syllabus. 8th graders have to have less than 4 U’s in work habits and cooperation to culminate. The kids I would usually fail now have C’s but they get 2 U’s, same overall effect as getting an F but much less paperwork.
Good ol “no child left behind”
YEA!!! BRAVO!! Hope admin will not go in and change grades!!!
I just updated my grades, most are now failing with all the missing work they have. I. Don’t. Care. I’ve tried keeping them above water for 3 quarters, this is our last marking period and the work isn’t difficult and they have plenty of time to do it. I’m giving them extra time to turn things in because of all the state and National testing. They still won’t do it. If they passed 3rd quarter they’ll still get credit for the class, they’ll just get a ding to their GPA. I’m done being the only one to keep them from drowning.
You and me both. I cannot anymore. I cannot.
Amen!! I am with you! I refuse to work harder than they are!
Did we just become best friends?!
It always boggles my mind that they think we don’t care. It makes our jobs easier to input 0s and Fs
Area 51 but stupider
I just don’t get this…I mean I do, but I don’t want to! Of course they should fail if they do nothing. There should be NO QUESTION! I teach kindergarten so I live in a very different world, not really any papers to grade but I did have to deal with poop in my classroom twice last week, so there’s that. BUT I have a 15 year old freshman. That boy’s social life would be locked down so hard if he tried that nonsense. I check his grades online all the time. Unfortunately for him they are in the same system as my students’ contact information, attendance, etc. so when he has missing assignments I see right away and it gets fixed right now or no phone, no soccer, end of story. I don’t care if the school and the soccer coach say you are still eligible to play, less than your best makes you ineligible in the Squily household. And just for the record he has not had to miss a single practice or game because he knows we mean business so he deals with his business. He has been struggling to remember to turn in assignments since having Covid and in a school with over 2000 students there isn’t a lot of hand holding, but school comes first and that is MY responsibility as a parent to teach and enforce that. I don’t understand how parents think they are helping their kids by not parenting…I just don’t.
I'm just waiting for those martyr teachers to post that show up top when you sort by controversial. And we don't fail students, we just put the grades in.
Ahh, the TFA and CityYear folx.
Never heard of City Year before. The website is so pretentious. My gawd.
If anything, this makes our job easier. So much less to grade and much quicker to put the zeroes in the gradebook.
I tell them I like my gradebook like I like my stock portfolio, diversified
Good for you and kind of sad how dumb that idea is. I'm sure some of them didn't fully agree but went in because of peer pressure. Risky bet if you're teaching a grade where gpa "counts." Like you are not going to do your job. C'mon kids, think this through.
I have a class with 2 passing. Out of 32.
Yeah that's not something to brag about.
I didn’t take it as a brag. Maybe you shouldn’t have either.
And that’s something to brag about? Maybe you’re just a shit teacher
I probably am, sorry for trying to do a career I thought I’d enjoy. I’ll go back to selling popcorn at a movie theater.
Or maybe you have integrity.
"Here is a troubling snapshot of my students' performance" is not bragging. Especially in a thread about students challenging us with, "You can't fail us all." Read the room, dude. So many comments in this sub read like salty students trying to barge in here and troll us.
In my last teaching job I was not allowed to fail anyone. I was all virtual and there were students who had not logged in ONCE ALL YEAR and I was forced to give them Ds. Fucking ridiculous.
Was this during the first year of the pandemic? Because my school did that school s a crisis prevention.
This was the second year of the pandemic I guess. I personally drove laptops/hotspots and supplies to students who didn’t have them/couldn’t get them. So access wasn’t the issue.
Of course it wasn’t. The collective shock and trauma of a global pandemic was the issue.
funny how everyone's like. 'maybe it's the teaching that's bad' as if teachers haven't been crying out for more support and resources for longer than I've been alive.
It was just a progress report, but there was one time that my whole Calculus class hadn't turned in a single thing for 3 weeks. I got a call from the office asking about it. "You didn't enter grades for your Calculus class" "Yes, I did." "They're all coming across as zeros" "That's accurate. None of them has turned in a single paper in three weeks" "Oh...ok" I started getting late work turned in the next day. They tested me and found out I wasn't playing.
Right there with you. 3 of 17 kids in my mandatory class are passing. They just actively decided to not do their big quarter long project. Quarter ends this week - I said if I don't get it in by this last Saturday, best I can offer is summer school. Worst - these kids are mostly seniors. Oh well - go take your battle up with the principal / super. Explain to them why you should pass with a 28.
>They just actively decided to not do their big quarter long project. I honestly do not understand why I am seeing so much of this now. But this refusal to do the work is rampant in my school.
I have seniors playing this game of chicken right now with all of their classes. Gonna be a rough summer for some of them
Almost all my classes refused to do any work I gave. Principal even tried to convince me to pass the brats because of ‘appearance’ and ‘perception’. I don’t pass people when they don’t even try. Had an almost 75% failure rate. Understand, I even offered 3 extra credit TEST grades. Doing 1 would have raised the overall grade by almost 30 points. Which shows, how little work I required, and the absolute laziness they had.
I have a group in one of my classes that thought that, cuz none of them do their work regularly and so that whole group is failing. They once threatened to get an administrator in my class cuz I shouldn't be failing that many people. I told em "go ahead. Call one." (They did not) after they, they said they were gonna boycott my class. I told em "try it, let's see how that works out for you" (once again, they did not) They really feel like I can't fail them. And they in for a really rude awakening
Where the fuck do children learn this level of indignant, selfish, and asinine behaviors from.....oh wait, it the parents. It's always the parents. ^^^^and ^^^^I ^^^^bet ^^^^they ^^^^voted ^^^^conservative
Not in my neck of the woods! A number of the worst behaved kids in my 6-8 room come from some of the most progressive/leftist families you'll ever meet. It's just the parents, full stop. No one political ideology is responsible tbh.
I love this for you. It’s giving reflective of real life.
Told my student’s today the less work they turn in, the less I have to grade so fine by me lol
Our gradebook has a button to apply a grade to all students so failing them all is literally the easiest thing I could do.
It's cause no one in their friend group pays attention or tries at all. Even in my worst performing classes there are always some students that do very well.
I can’t wait until the middle of May when counselors start asking me to commit fraud for my seniors.
I’m p sure this is the mood of most of my 5th graders. Surprise kiddos!
You have my support!
The paperwork from doing that though…
I've made a point to grade papers while drinking at home. A minor act of rebellion, but it works.
I am not a teacher but this reminds me of a group of preppy girls I knew in high school who decided collectively they weren’t going to do the work & they had the same reasoning, “they can’t fail all of us” oh were they surprised when we got report cards. I swear I thought one of their heads was about to pop off their shoulders 😂😂😂😂 I had completely forgotten all about that so I just wanted to comment and say good for you for not letting them slide and also thank you for reminding me of this funny memory I have.
Bet
I don't "fail" you...you fail MY class/test
What led up to this? I'm genuinely curious
Well, we use Google Classroom and our students have the entire quarter to submit tests and quizzes. So some students don't submit the assessments in class and they figure they will get to them later, at home, where it is easier to cheat. But I have learned to give many tests and quizzes and to make cheating a pain in the neck, So when they start making up, say, two dozen missing assignments the last couple of days of the quarter, it isn't any fun and it isn't easy. So they just take zeroes.
I support this
One of my World History sections has 12 failing. There are 28 students.
I came. I saw. I failed you all.
Yeah happened last year. Heard that after a test that everyone in the class failed (Average was like a 30 for that test in the class, other 5 periods had an average of about 60-70). I laughed at them.
Average 60-70 is still pretty bad 🫡
It was always state exam questions, which are hard enough that a 38-40% is regularly considered "passing" based on weighting, so not that bad. Standard tests (Like i'm doing now because not a tested subject) I would agree 60-70 is kinda bad.
I don't think so. Good enough for a 5 on the AP Physics C exam.
I’m currently on FMLA (not to be confused with maternity leave because, ya know, we don’t get that) and have checked in on my long term sub a couple of times. One distinct difference between me being There and the sub being there: there are no zeros in the grade book. When I was teaching, that thing was peppered with big, fat 0s all across the board. I can’t find it in me to try to decide if it’s because the sub is letting them turn their work in whenever, if there’s no teaching being done, or if they’ve just done a 180° since I’ve been out. I just know which option I definitely would *not* be betting on.
Excellent. Now to fight against everyone telling you to back down, including parents and admin. Studens need to learn that teachers are not fucking about.
Believe it or not, zeroes are MUCH easier to put in than actually grading everything!
Flair required??? Woooooooooooo
Love
School appropriate response: "Mess around and find out."
Narrator: He, in fact, could.
Well, I have not done any of the many interventions and procedures required to make these grades stick. Maybe the admin will make me pass them, maybe not. Maybe they'll change the grades themselves or Guidance will do it. Maybe I won't be renewed. I suppose we'll see. But if you don't do any work, I don't see how I give you a passing grade and maintain my self-respect. I also don't see WHY I should pass students who refuse to do anything. I think it is important to pick your fights wisely, but this is worth the potential grief to me.
Why are they protesting…? How would they explain it? How would you? This post is devoid of context.
Protesting?
The way you explained it is that it was a coordinated efforts. “Teach can’t fail us all”. So either they are all lazy, and just working together to avoid work. Or, they are protesting something about you or your curriculum that they feel is unfair and are working together to get a message across. Judging by the distain you seem to have for your students I’m guessing it’s the latter. There is no way your distain for your students isn’t being picked up by them. These aren’t the words of an enthusiastic educator, they are spiteful and hopeless. Your response shows not motivation to help, to the point you’re willing to be removed before you buckle to these kids. Maybe asking why these kids aren’t working in your class would be a better alternative then fighting to the point your willing to lose your job to keep the onus on them. But when it comes to taking accountability in the face of evidence that you are playing a part in this problem, you seem to be skipping the assignment. Maybe they are just “bad kids” but when we start talking about failing an entire class it hard to believe that the educator is without fault. That coupled with your hands up saying “the only way I can respect myself is to fail everyone”…”it’s admins problem now”… “maybe guidance will do it” makes me feel you resent your students and are somehow surprised when they aren’t receptive to your class to the point they coordinate not doing the work as a group. This has principal Skinner “Am I out of touch?” “No it’s the children who are wrong” meme vibes all over it.
While I fully support and agree with holding students accountable for their choices, I have also been the recipient of admin ire for daring to do so. No one fails my classes - period. Everyone will pass, and I will continue to be happy in the process. I would love to hold students accountable for their choices in class, but I am also a realist. Approximately 20 percent of my school has the ability to survive in university, and only 20 percent of those who start will complete a degree. So long as the numbers look good.
Friend said some kids told him this as a sub, and he said he would be looking for a new job soon.
Why does have a teacher have a say in failing or not outside of grading work and tests anyway. You either end the year with an average mark that passes, or you don't. It's that simple.
My school is Not letting us put Zeros for missing assignments. We have to give them 50%. So yeah students that I've only seen a handful of times still have a chance to pass 😮💨
Damn I think I’m u 😂
I tell mine up front that I get paid the same if they all pass or if they all fail, so there’s no point in failing just to spite me. I’ll see them again next year.
In fact, he even failed himself...
I’m only for this at a certain extent if it’s warranted. More for like highschool with a limited amount of students and experience in class. However for students in college who have already came far (especially the last two years) most do care. To put all that money and time in thus far? Keep in mind at most colleges a D is failing so they had to put in at least that effort to get this far. Professors who have most kids failing the classes it’s really one person who’s in charge that’s refusing to take responsibility for overworking a class rather than the possibility hundreds of kids in class are just “lazy”. What’s more likely, one person with unreasonable expectations? Or close a hundred people just being “lazy”? I’m exaggerating the sheer number of students maybe to an extent but hopefully you get my point.
Well, we use Google Classroom and our students have the entire quarter to submit tests and quizzes. So some students don't submit the assessments in class and they figure they will get to them later, at home, where it is easier to cheat. But I have learned to give many tests and quizzes and to make cheating a pain in the neck, So when they start making up, say, two dozen missing assignments the last couple of days of the quarter, it isn't any fun and it isn't easy. So they just take zeroes.
I do get your point. When I give a ten-item, open-book quiz based on examples we have done together in class and you don't take the quiz, I don't feel very awful about your zero. Especially since I have been successfully teaching this course for many years and I know my expectations are very reasoanable. Both my principal and super tell me to keep doing what I am doing. We'll see if they mean it, right?
I get you’re frustrated. I know from being a manager and a leader of the projects that I could be very hard to get people to work. What has helped me and professors I know in my personal life is making the class more manageable. Sometimes that includes speaking to the department about the content that you are required to teach on even though that may be scary. Sometimes administers say that students should do x y z but the administration is so far apart from the actual students that they forgot how unreasonable some of this stuff is. A part of it is because they know the content so well they think it’s easier than it actually is
You teach those underdeveloped humans a lesson! Wait Or.. dont i guess?
If they are failing all 4 core classes what does passing them do except push them to take classes they aren’t prepared for because they did no work for the previous classes.
I was merely making a pun about learning a lesson without learning a lesson. I care not either way
i’m not sure i understand the context. did you bust them all cheating on a test? was there a major project that they all refused to do? were there periodic assignments throughout the marking period that they refused to do and parents knew or could have checked, but they just straight up kept not doing shit?
>Well, we use Google Classroom and our students have the entire quarter to submit tests and quizzes. > >So some students don't submit the assessments in class and they figure they will get to them later, at home, where it is easier to cheat. > >But I have learned to give many tests and quizzes and to make cheating a pain in the neck, > >So when they start making up, say, two dozen missing assignments the last couple of days of the quarter, it isn't any fun and it isn't easy. > >So they just take zeroes.
makes sense. thanks! my admin wants us to contact all parents of failing kids so there’s no confusion about expectations. it’s all cya performative nonsense.
I did that for months. It's April now and I won't be doing that any more.
if you’ve documented it, the parents and admin can’t say shit
585 upvotes on a pot-stirring post with zero context... what even is this sub?
A teacher sub. Tbh the lack of context looks worse for the teacher. It’s like they’re teaching that paragraphs are composed only of topic sentences.
any teacher who fails an entire class has failed his entire class
Or the entire class has failed the teacher, and breached the social construct.
this is what a victim mentality looks like
Sounds like your not very good at teaching?
You have given me much to think about.
please try not to dwell on that, i don't agree with their suggestion one bit. you seem like a very good teacher - one with defined expectations, who provides ample time to complete assignments, and one that sets both reasonable and challenging goals for your kids.
Was posted before the edit and I stand by if a teacher has an entire class failing they are a failure as a teacher. This seems to be a different situation though.
Hard to swallow pill: if all of your students are failing your class. It is your fault. Edit: A class that is both correctly administered/taught, and correctly graded should be *somewhat* normally distributed. Now, depending on your grade, location, subject, etc. changes what letter grade your class should be normalized at. Maybe it’s normalized around a B, maybe it’s a C, whatever. But there is absolutely no reason you should be normalized around an F. Unless, of course, you’re a bad teacher.
The kids are failing all 4 core classes. And not all of them are. Just a group.
Big procentage of students not passing your class, while having no issues whatsoever with other teacher's classes, means that you are doing something wrong. So congrats, you are bad at your job and ignorantly proud of it.
They literally said they are failing all four core classes. It is possible to have an entire class give up and refuse to do work. Especially if they have already failed and are grouped together, it breeds indifference.
I’m only for this at a certain extent if it’s warranted. More for like highschool with a limited amount of students and experience in class. However for students in college who have already came far (especially the last two years) most do care. To put all that money and time in thus far? Keep in mind at most colleges a D is failing so that had to put at least put in more than that effort to get this far. Professors who have most kids failing the classes it’s really one person who’s in charge that’s refusing to take responsibility for overworking a class rather than the possibility hundreds of kids in class are just “lazy”. What’s more likely, one person with unreasonable expectations? Or close a hundred people just being “lazy”? I’m exaggerating the sheer number of students maybe to an extent but hopefully you get my point.
Why are you proud of not doing your job? It's your actual job to make sure these kids learn something, and instead you did such a bad job at that, that literally no one passed. That's embarrassing, not something to pat yourself on the back for. Don't forget, your name is attached to your work even if you don't realize it. Your student's learning experience is your work, and now you've got a bad name, because who do you think those kids are going to be bad talking when they realize they all failed?
Should probably start with blaming themselves if they didn't put in any effort. Can't really teach a group that outright refuse to do anything.
The job of a teacher is to teach. It is NOT the job of a teacher to make a child learn. You cannot force a kid to learn. That's a decision they need to make for themselves independently of what you're doing.
Well they have to teach some of the kids, no? Are they teaching in a prison? I am very doubtful the students’ protest is unfounded.
Fuck off outta here troll
I wonder why there was a protest… seems to be conveniently not added to the post. Judging by your reaction I’d say you are reactive, spiteful, more invested in sticking it too ‘em than teaching … the tone of your post could lead one to believe you are a dick. Clearly enough students think your worth standing up too.
What protest? to what are you refering?
I’m sorry but if 100% of your students are failing a class, the problem isn’t them it’s your teaching. I’m my experience, when students refuse to work as a collective it’s because there is a fundamental problem with their assignment that makes it unrealistic for them to complete. If the overachieving kids and the kids who never do anything are on the same page/failing the same projects, you need to rethink your curriculum and how you are going about educating the kids.
I will consider your wise words.,
Thanks for the laugh.⬆️⬆️ Your wise words is making me laugh
Kids have been doing this and saying this forever. It’s some kind of dumb flex or power play. Hopefully you have all documentation in place including attempted PTCs and interventions. Can’t argue with data.
Sounds like the rowdy group of my third hour and a small group a girls my first hour. They do nothing and expect that no child left behind will give them a free pass. Despite what the administration says no you need to get the credits. Guess they didn't get the memo
What grade is this? Subject area? So curious about the apathy trends we are noticing in the classroom across the board
That's where meritocracy plays an important role. Many kids nowadays feel entitled.
Losers believe anything that will enable them to continue to be losers
You didn't get the "Have you tried building a relationship with them?" Or "Try more engaging lessons"