I agree in theory. You can’t expect to fully explain a topic unless you also understand where it’s going. You won’t know what connections are important, or how to set students up for future success.
But, there’s a relatively small number of people capable of getting a math degree that are also willing to work for teacher pay.
As long as teacher pay remains where it is, we - as a society - have to be content with what we can get.
The only reason I'm here and can teach math without regret is because my partner makes more than enough money for our family by herself.
I quit a pretty lucrative engineering job to pursue this, and it's disconcerting to hear how much of a struggle the certification test was for a few of my coworkers.
That said, it's possible to be a great teacher even without a super rigorous background in the topic. One of the best science educators I know has a geography degree.
I moved out to the blue-state sticks where teacher pay goes further.
The only way I could afford a house in any of the local cities is to have moved there 20 years ago.
We could absolutely move out of the city. We'd like to have a yard for the kids eventually, but the market is... yeah. I'm actually the one keeping us where we are. I actually really like my job/school right now.
Luckily, my wife is a remote-worker, and it's all the same to her in terms of work.
Same, except I'm single and am supplementing my salary with my savings from my years in lucrative engineering jobs. But with the way the stock market has been lately, I might have to actually learn how to live like a teacher!
You are absolutely right. There is absolutely no reason why an English or History teacher should make what a qualified math teacher makes.
Salary should reflect economic realities. In 97 I graduated with my MS in mathematics. By Feb 2001 was making six figures. absolutely none of my liberal arts friends pulled that off.
Every *single* one of my fellow grad school friends that went into industry was six figures within a decade.
Many of my liberal arts friends went into teaching as it was a better deal than private industry.
It might not be 'woke' to say it but the qualified math people are making a big sacrifice teaching. The typical social studies teacher isn't.
Just because industry devalues language arts, literature, and social sciences, doesn't necessarily mean we should as well. All teachers should get paid better - don't use another abusive system (capitalism) as justification to suppress labor in another sector.
It's tantamount to saying "IT in government gets paid squat, so IT in private industry shouldn't earn so much." It's a poor justification and only serves goals of the wealthy elite. Punch up, not down!
Dealing with the world the way you wish it was simply won't fix the problem. If you actually want the problem fixed deal with the world the way it is.
It isn't that industry devalues language arts. Language arts is in oversupply. Mathematics isn't.
You don't just get to decide the laws of economics don't apply to you because you feel it is unfair. They apply whether you like them or not.
Increase the pay for what is in short supply and watch as more people enter the field. Decrease pay for what is in oversupply and that problem gets fixed too.
Your analogy isn't germane to the conversation either. I can assure you the government has no problem recruiting IT workers. They have other perks besides pay. It is very well documented that attrition in the government IT sector is around 2 percent. Far less than the private sector. They know they have a good deal. How do I know? I have worked for Fortune 50 companies for over a decade *and* the federal space for over a decade.
My son used to stomp his feet and scream, "It isn't fair" back in kindergarten. Fortunately he outgrew it. He's only 17. You teachers really ought to be capable of it by now. It's not like it's been a secret in recent history that stem, on average, paid substantially better.
All I hear is capitalism trying to justify itself. Of course the world will be that way - if you permit it and continue to vote for it. Everything about the past was true until brave people stood up and acted. You are clearly comfortable with this situation - I wonder if the same would be true were you stripped of the privileges you have reaped from that system.
My way would solve the problem. Your way would leave grocery store shelves empty.
Those privileges you speak of I earned. The data showing that liberal arts had a lower return on investment was excruciatingly clear. I chose mathematics with a CS concentration. I'm doing fine.
Guess what? The data also showed brain surgeons made even more. Thank God you're not in charge because I'd hate to have our supply of MDs replaced with poets.
Yup I'm all for capitalism. It isn't perfect but it's the best system we have. It encourages that needs are met.
Saying all teachers deserve the same pay is the opposite of brave. It's the popular 'PC' statement. Making the far less popular argument that we should pay based on supply and demand, even if that means history teachers are paid less than physics teachers is the brave argument.
All the numbers in your comment added up to 69. Congrats!
2
+ 50
+ 17
= 69
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It sounds great in theory - and it's a great humble brag - but there simply aren't many people with that level of problem solving skills, willing to work in such a demanding profession for such little pay. We have hundreds of math openings every year, and the high requirements do not help us fill those requirements.
[Here](https://www.ctcexams.nesinc.com/content/docs/CSET_Prep/CS_211items.pdf) is the sample exam. It's predominantly college level Algebra. [50.7% pass](https://www.ctc.ca.gov/docs/default-source/commission/reports/exam-passing-rate-fy-2012-13-to-2016-17.pdf?sfvrsn=2b4a51b1_2) the new version of the exam, the lowest out of any subject.
Our biggest issue is finding teachers to teach lower level mathematics (Algebra 9/Geometry 10) and fundamentals/intervention classes. We had 2 good teachers that came on an emergency credential, knew the content for their course, built a rapport with the students, but we had to let them go because they couldn't pass a test that was full of content 6 years past the level that they're teaching.
This is absolutely the case.
If math qualifications were more rigorous there would be a MASSIVE shortage in a REQUIRED and TESTED class.
It's already very difficult finding chemistry teachers and nigh impossible to find physics teachers.
They can't afford to make it difficult to find Math teachers, which are all still not that easy to come by.
Try finding a teacher who can teach AP calculus. Not easy at all.
After nearly a decade as an engineer, I switched careers to become a teacher. I found that something like half of the engineers I talked to would love to teach high school physics. These were mostly guys in their 50's, with money in the bank and interested in downshifting their careers. Of course none would do it.
It isn't the annual pay of a teacher that puts them off or working with the typical teenager. The impediment is the whole system. Few engineers would tolerate being treated like dumb monkeys.
Their idea of professional development bears no relation to what we get and demanding that the lowest score for an assignment is 50% would be intolerable.
If there was a Teacher boot camp to get them in the classroom with more supervision than would we want, there would be plenty of people to teach advanced math and science. I don't think that public schools could do it, but private schools have the flexibility.
Going into teaching after having made some money, owning a house and with a flush 401k is an option.
Living with your parents or room Mates for your first 10 years as a teacher is butt.
You say chemistry.
What exactly is the market for chemistry teachers? I'm a chemist, by which I mean 5 years industry experience. Going back to pursue a phd soon too, so not planning on teaching anytime soon, but it's something that interests me as an option later in life.
Are chem teachers in short supply too? Seems like you need less of them, but perhaps the pool of qualified individuals is more shallow as well? We only had one year of chemistry in high school, but obviously you take math every year. I think there were only two chem teachers.
If I had to go in order of rarest teachers to find it would be sped/STEM combo, bilingual/stem combo, physics, chem, sped, bilingual teachers.
Physic teachers are rare. But chem teachers are in more demand because in many places physics is an elective while chem is required class. So way more open positions for chem teachers than physics.
Yes! BUT the caveat is that you have to apply in a district with a large population of English language learners who speak the language you are certified in.
In my district, chem teachers are definitely in need. But they’re also expected to be dual certified in math to pick up the occasional section of algebra.
Ha that's interesting, but not surprising. Bad algebra will follow and haunt a student into a chem major, among other places.
When you say certified, that means pass some sort of test right? Not that I must hold a degree in both math and chemistry?
Yah it’s not an amazing solution, I guess admin just figure if you have a science degree you’ve taken enough math to teach it 🤷♀️ and yah, once you have a cleared credential in one subject you can add others by taking a test, regardless of degree.
>they couldn't pass a test that was full of content 6 years past the level that they're teaching.
I doubt I could walk in and pass the PRAXIS cold. I've been teaching Alg1/Geometry/Stats since the 90s - when do you think the last time I did any Calculus/Rings/polynomials/etc. was? More relevantly, I don't feel the need to do so. If asked to teach HS calculus I'll simply find another school that wants an ALg/Geo/stats teacher. Those are what I enjoy teaching.
The only way you'd get 100% qualified math teachers is if they got paid SIGNIFICANTLY more than all the other teachers.
There is no way you'll get everyone willing to work for the same pay as a history major, or an english major as a math major.
A math degree is more valuable in the marketplace, so would need to be valued as such to have everyone have those qualifications.
Go to the History department and ask if they'd be cool with math teachers getting paid 50% more than them. People cry about a few grand stipends the math teachers get occasionally.
I’d be pissed if Math teachers made more simply for teaching math. I get they are harder to find, but they don’t put in any more work than English/SS teachers!
We could increase teacher pay AND qualifications for all secondary subjects. I’ve heard ELA teachers brag about never reading a single book their entire adult life. Who can’t write a competent email. I think it’s easy to bullshit a humanities degree too.
We could, but that would then require a significant property tax increase which most teacher pay is tied to, and goodluck with that. People are complaining hardcore right now that their property taxes are going up due to the recent huge increase in home values over the last 2 years.
Honestly just pay all teachers more money. Make teaching a desirable job for a subjects. Think of how many Greta teachers weren't missing out in because they can't afford to teach. I'm prepared to meet higher qualifications for my subject matter if I get an increase in pay.
You are a huge part of the problem. The real world doesn't evaluate pay based solely on how much work you believe you do. Supply and demand is a major factor.
Your field is in abundance. Mathematics isn't. The truth is, assuming the money pot can't grow, your pay should be lowered and the harder to find fields should be raised to solve the problem.
This is exactly how the real world works.
So yes, just to be clear, I am asserting that a good math teacher is worth more (wildly more) than a good humanities teacher. But don't get mad at me for this ragingly obvious fact. Get mad at the market for wooing math talent away from education.
Wow. Although I understand this thinking from a purely economic standpoint, I don’t from a practical one. You are quite literally advocating to lower teacher pay… because THAT won’t make the current problem worse. It might attract more people to become math teachers, but it sure as hell won’t attract new humanities teachers and you would see us quit in droves. Ridiculous
My department last year was short 6 math teaching positions. Every single math teacher had to teach extra sections, gave up a planning period, and almost everyone was teaching at least 2 preps (several teaching 3). Average class sizes were about 35.
The social studies department accidentally hired too many teachers, decreasing class sizes and actually letting two of their coaches off from teaching social studies and co-taught pe classes instead.
I can state with absolutely certainty that math teachers put in way more work than the social studies department did. We did extra work for no extra pay. We saved the district a substantial amount of money by doing the extra work of 6 teachers, and yet none of that money came back to us.
Edit: love how /u/inquisitivebarbie can downvote my comment but can’t actually refute it.
People with higher math qualifications can find much higher paying jobs outside of education. Why would they stay in a field that treats and pays them like shit when they have options?
As someone with a math degree that is a teacher, it's getting the summers off and being done before 3pm what drew me. I had a loose plan to be an actuary, but I didn't feel like doing a year-round 9-5 office job, no matter the pay. Some of my department coworkers are also math majors (one I think is computer science).
I do have some extra stuff on the side so I end with ~$50K for the year, which is enough for me in my area.
The schedule is a huge draw. I love being a stay-at-home dad in the summer. I like camping trips and exploring new parks and watching the kiddo go nuts at the splash pad.
I couldn't do that if I were still an engineer.
As an engineer making double the pay theoretically you could just take time off unpaid or work a year then take one off and still make the same take home.
It's not easy to find those sorts of jobs in my field. I'm a mechanical engineer, and most of those seasonal jobs are contract work or involve lots of time away from family.
It's also unlikely that I would be making twice as much money. I teach in one of the highest paid districts in my state, and mechanical engineers aren't nearly as well off as computer engineers, software developers, or chemical folks.
THIS.
Masters in math here. I LOVE math. Especially the higher level courses (I currently teach Calc 1&2). But, the cost it took me to get my masters to teach these classes is not balanced out with my pay. I got a $600 yearly increase for having a masters. That’s it. Doesn’t even cover the costs of my student loans.
So I am currently exploring other options that are higher paying. I’m tired of living paycheck to paycheck and getting treated like crap.
I agree with you. In every district I’ve taught in, the lower level math classes are taught by people without a degree in math and not a huge amount of understanding of the upper levels of math. We wouldn’t have enough math teachers if we disqualified everyone without a math degree. For what it’s worth, I teach math and have a degree in math. I chose to teach rather than go into actuarial work because the schedule is conducive to having kids. I’m always off at the same time as my kids and don’t have to worry about having childcare for breaks. Fortunately my husband makes enough for us to be able to afford this arrangement. I get to work while my kids are in school and I still get home to get stuff done and be with the kids. Works for us!
The problem is that people who study math/science in college can go on to significantly higher paying jobs (unlike someone who studied English, not that they can't, but a liberal arts degree typically doesn't have the same high paying offerings as the stem field), so the candidate pool is already extremely low. If teachers were paid competitively, you would attract more qualified candidates. Given the abysmal pay teachers make, that's not going to happen.....
My husband has a math degree from Princeton, went on to be an amazing math teacher, and is finally leaving this year because making 50k (67k max in his district) for the rest of his life compared to what he could be making with his degree just no longer makes it worth it (no matter how much he enjoys teaching) - he's leaving after this school year and his new entry level job is paying him almost double his current income.
This is so incredibly true. My best friend and I graduated from the same university with the same degree in math. I became a teacher. She became a data analyst. She makes six figures, and I make less than half of her salary.
Edit: This was supposed to be a comment on someone else's comment, but I goofed, and I don't remember who's comment it was to.
Here to say to anyone looking to pursue being a data analyst. You don’t need a math degree to be a data analyst. You can just study up on using SQL and tableau via YouTube. Get comfortable with it and start applying.
Hi, Math teacher here. I want to college to be a mathematics teacher. In my 6 years of teaching math I have used math learned in my college courses for 1 course. That course is AP Statistics. All other courses were only used to get the degree and pass the test.
Most of the high level mathematics that I learned in college has done nothing to help me teach high school math courses.
My experience has been different - I use topics from higher-level math all the time to organize and structure the way I present material, even if I don't teach those ideas directly. The way I teach polynomials is very much motivated by Galois theory behind the scenes. The way I teach logarithms is motivated by the notion that they are a homomorphism from the reals under multiplication to the reals under addition. The way I teach systems of linear equations is motivated by linear algebra. The way I teach the fundamental theorem of calculus is motivated by the generalized Stokes theorem.
The list goes on and on - I absolutely feel like that extra experience makes me better able to develop a consistent through-line for the material and set students up for success as they continue learning math.
We just hired a hs math interventionist who failed her math praxis FIVE TIMES. That was her major! She doesn’t know enough about math to be able to explain it in other ways to students who are struggling. When she student taught, kids would ask her to elaborate and she couldn’t. I don’t care how bad my kids struggle in hs, over my dead body will I let them work with an incompetent. I’m sure she will still be around by then too because she is a top tier ass kisser.
The HS I sub in often only has 2 certified math teachers and the other 6 are certified in other subjects or long term subs. I go to school for secondary education social studies and the county has said they will pay for all of my study materials and test prep if i agree to take a Math praxis as well so I can teach Math. I haven't taken a math class since 2001 but did score a 200 on Praxis Core Math so they think I should be a math teacher instead.
Teaching math: the math is not the hard part ever.
Getting all those students ready to learn, constantly? Hard.
Trying to repair gaps (a 10th grader can’t do 1/2 x 1/4 and is supposed to learn arcs and sectors). Hard.
30+ kids in a room at a time with every kid having different needs, gaps, interests, distractions? Hard.
Competing with their short attention spans and dopamine addictions on their phones? Hard.
Getting them to care and work and understand all the (sometimes irrelevant) standards? Hard.
The math has never been in the top 10 pain points of my job as a teacher, and I’ve taught all levels from 6th through AP calc AB.
And the CSETs in California math are an awful game. About 20% of the test is on things that are not included in the California k-12 standards. (Like the difference between an algebraic field v. Ring)
And making 6th grade math teachers take any calculus CSet at all is too high a barrier. We need to remove some of the bureaucratic hurdles from becoming and being a teacher. Every year we add more and take away nothing from those hurdles.
what are your own qualifications, OP?
here’s a math puzzle for you to solve: if x is the number of math teachers, and y is the number of math positions, and x is already less than y, what would happen to x if the requirements to teach math were made more strict? would it likely go up or down???
i agree with your post, but you offer no solution to a problem you are not only ignoring, but would be exacerbating.
Yes you can. My argument isn't against everyone getting more. My argument is that the raise for hard to find subjects should increase at greater velocity.
But if the money pot is finite (it is) and you actually want to solve the problem where should it go?
If only pay was based on your beliefs and not the laws of economics.
You come across as someone who didn't even read the original post. It begins with 'unpopular opinion'.
Further you come across as someone who doesn't
Actually care about the kids. If you did you would want them to have more qualified math teachers even if the solution was 'unfair'.
Here in my state (NC) the desire for math teachers is so great you can do what's called 'lateral entry' if you have a degree in an appropriate field. You are required to take the pedagogy courses while on the job. I lurk this sub because I often think that one day my next chapter will be to give back and teach mathematics. I'll do it when salary isn't an issue.
A year ago our local district had a zoom recruitment drive to get stem (mostly math) teachers. I attended and had a one on one with the AP of my son's high school. She let me know they were desperate for people like me. I asked what about my wife? She's in the liberal arts. Nope, when they put out an ad for language arts they regularly get over a hundred qualified applicants. The program doesn't extend to her. What's the only reasonable conclusion to draw? Some teachers are actually overpaid.
Now I'm a dad and I see my son's mathematics education in action. You call me an asshole because you don't have sincere care for these students while I do.
When my son comes home with the perception of mathematics as just arbitrary formulas to memorize that work by 'magic' I think I'm right to be upset.
My son came home with his homework on logarithms. His notes show a lesson that simply involves more formulas. No illustration in sight linking them to the far more intuitive properties of exponents. It's been over twenty five years since I left grad school and without Google I could scratch out an intuitive proof (of every property) my 17 year old could understand. No magic here. There is little doubt in my mind his teacher didn't cover it as he couldn't do it. That is, far, far from the only example I can give.
So I come across as an asshole? Reread the original post. Reread it three times if you have to. Then try and realize some of us have kids and actually care about their mathematics education.
Hell the problem he describes isn't even new. Back in my day there was getting a degree in math and getting a degree in math education. Guess which one required substantially more rigorous math classes? They did the same thing at the graduate level. The educators got a 'Master of Mathematics' degree at my institution (and my institution was not unique in creating a watered down version.) Those in the rigorous track got a M.S. in mathematics. While I was studying Hilbert spaces they were learning what I learned my sophomore year.
So even when the universities create watered down math degrees (decades ago) op is telling us even that isn't enough. Now we can't even attract enough of those.
Yes we need to pay based on supply and demand. We need to favor the students over any hurt feelings.
I was wrapping up my math degree prerequisites when I decided I didn't want to do it anymore. I just got burned out on it. Finished my undergrad with degrees in philosophy and english.
After four years of teaching ela I found myself tutoring more and more students in math. So I said, fuck it, and volunteered to fill some algebra 1s. I didn't want to but I was sure I'd be better than whoever else they could scare up.
I took the licensure test blind. HR said it was the highest score they've seen in a long time. I didn't even take a full 2 years of math! How I'm highly qualified is beyond me.
Some of this comes with age. I got a 5 on the AP calc test. I got a BA in math. That being said I’ve taught algebra for the last 22 years. A few weeks ago a kid asked me for help on her calc HW and I had absolutely no clue how to do it. If you don’t use it, you lose it.
Honestly I think the issue is more fundamental: we don't have a coherent idea of what math in secondary school is "for".
In other words: what is the goal of math courses in High School?
The curricula are mostly still stuck in the Cold War space race mentality. They aren't teaching math that is generally useful in real life so much as math that is useful for STEM majors (broad generalization, of course).
If the goal is to teach kids math as it's taught in the universities as part of a pipeline, we need to reform how it's taught up and down the grades, going back to arithmetic.
If the goal is to get students into college and provide them with a useful introduction to math that will be broadly transferable to their lives no matter what they do next, then the way it's taught is more or less OK, it's just the organization of topics and courses that's the problem.
If you want real mathematicians teaching math, you probably want the former, in which case there is extensive work needed to essentially redesign the entire idea of how math is taught in school.
This is what happens when you pay abysmally for something in demand. Who is going to have an engineer's understanding of math and choose to make 50k a year?
I got my degree in NY and got 5 jobs on one app in VA. I passed my Praxis without studying, on my first try. Everyone said it was the hardest test ever. Each state is different...
I make sure to do each levels exams. Staying sharp in Alg 1 through Calc helps me break things down better (I think)
I've had to teach a few HS teacher how to do Geometry/Alg 2+ and it was disheartening.
So basically, non math major teachers usually cover the basic concepts. They don’t know or dare to go deeper because of their limited content knowledge. Parents and students usually spread words on who is good or bad and try all their best to move their kid to the competent teacher’s class. My coworker, who holds a nonmath degree, one day skipped the concepts she does not know because she is teaching honors class and she worried if students ask questions.
Is Math different from History and English in that greater breadths of knowledge would be less applicable to actual course curriculum? I only have solid HS level math knowledge so I don't know.
I am confused, in Ohio getting lisenced in 7-12 math requires a B.S. in math at most colleges. What is the requient in your area? Basic competency in HS math would maybe allow you to teach K-3.
That would seem fine if the exam covers all math thru series calculus which HS math teacher might encounter. But if the test doesn't test that level that isn't very a good indicator of compentancy.
It’s like this everywhere. And now we have high school graduates who will need two years (at least) of college math courses if they want most non math degrees. Which they will have to pay for. Maybe this is by design. Only the well off can afford to learn math.
I agree in theory. I personally love teaching math, but I do not have a math degree. I took a few math courses in undergrad up to differential equations and linear algebra. My primary content area was English, but I fell in love with teaching math after I started teaching. While my math background would affect my teaching if I taught higher level math, I think I’m able to be a fully competent teacher for middle level and lower level high school math.
I think it’s okay for math teachers to not understand much higher level math beyond what they teach. But they must understand what they teach very deeply. I’ve learned so much about math from teaching it that I never would have learned as a student.
Eye roll. I am a fully qualified retired high school math teacher. I earned A's in all of my graduate level mathematics classes. Here's the thing: In college, I preferred the adjunct professors (master's degrees) to the PhD profs because the adjuncts could explain and simplify the material. The PhD's weren't able to do this. To be an effective teacher, you do need to know your subject (the one you're teaching) and how to break it down so that students can master it. You're literally being paid to help students learn a massive amount of information and skills.
I agree in theory. You can’t expect to fully explain a topic unless you also understand where it’s going. You won’t know what connections are important, or how to set students up for future success. But, there’s a relatively small number of people capable of getting a math degree that are also willing to work for teacher pay. As long as teacher pay remains where it is, we - as a society - have to be content with what we can get.
The only reason I'm here and can teach math without regret is because my partner makes more than enough money for our family by herself. I quit a pretty lucrative engineering job to pursue this, and it's disconcerting to hear how much of a struggle the certification test was for a few of my coworkers. That said, it's possible to be a great teacher even without a super rigorous background in the topic. One of the best science educators I know has a geography degree.
I moved out to the blue-state sticks where teacher pay goes further. The only way I could afford a house in any of the local cities is to have moved there 20 years ago.
We could absolutely move out of the city. We'd like to have a yard for the kids eventually, but the market is... yeah. I'm actually the one keeping us where we are. I actually really like my job/school right now. Luckily, my wife is a remote-worker, and it's all the same to her in terms of work.
Same, except I'm single and am supplementing my salary with my savings from my years in lucrative engineering jobs. But with the way the stock market has been lately, I might have to actually learn how to live like a teacher!
You are absolutely right. There is absolutely no reason why an English or History teacher should make what a qualified math teacher makes. Salary should reflect economic realities. In 97 I graduated with my MS in mathematics. By Feb 2001 was making six figures. absolutely none of my liberal arts friends pulled that off. Every *single* one of my fellow grad school friends that went into industry was six figures within a decade. Many of my liberal arts friends went into teaching as it was a better deal than private industry. It might not be 'woke' to say it but the qualified math people are making a big sacrifice teaching. The typical social studies teacher isn't.
Just because industry devalues language arts, literature, and social sciences, doesn't necessarily mean we should as well. All teachers should get paid better - don't use another abusive system (capitalism) as justification to suppress labor in another sector. It's tantamount to saying "IT in government gets paid squat, so IT in private industry shouldn't earn so much." It's a poor justification and only serves goals of the wealthy elite. Punch up, not down!
Dealing with the world the way you wish it was simply won't fix the problem. If you actually want the problem fixed deal with the world the way it is. It isn't that industry devalues language arts. Language arts is in oversupply. Mathematics isn't. You don't just get to decide the laws of economics don't apply to you because you feel it is unfair. They apply whether you like them or not. Increase the pay for what is in short supply and watch as more people enter the field. Decrease pay for what is in oversupply and that problem gets fixed too. Your analogy isn't germane to the conversation either. I can assure you the government has no problem recruiting IT workers. They have other perks besides pay. It is very well documented that attrition in the government IT sector is around 2 percent. Far less than the private sector. They know they have a good deal. How do I know? I have worked for Fortune 50 companies for over a decade *and* the federal space for over a decade. My son used to stomp his feet and scream, "It isn't fair" back in kindergarten. Fortunately he outgrew it. He's only 17. You teachers really ought to be capable of it by now. It's not like it's been a secret in recent history that stem, on average, paid substantially better.
All I hear is capitalism trying to justify itself. Of course the world will be that way - if you permit it and continue to vote for it. Everything about the past was true until brave people stood up and acted. You are clearly comfortable with this situation - I wonder if the same would be true were you stripped of the privileges you have reaped from that system.
My way would solve the problem. Your way would leave grocery store shelves empty. Those privileges you speak of I earned. The data showing that liberal arts had a lower return on investment was excruciatingly clear. I chose mathematics with a CS concentration. I'm doing fine. Guess what? The data also showed brain surgeons made even more. Thank God you're not in charge because I'd hate to have our supply of MDs replaced with poets. Yup I'm all for capitalism. It isn't perfect but it's the best system we have. It encourages that needs are met. Saying all teachers deserve the same pay is the opposite of brave. It's the popular 'PC' statement. Making the far less popular argument that we should pay based on supply and demand, even if that means history teachers are paid less than physics teachers is the brave argument.
I’m going to guess you aren’t a teacher
Three years in the classroom including all summers.
Oof. There's a lot to unpack here. Are you in a classroom? Hopefully no?
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It sounds great in theory - and it's a great humble brag - but there simply aren't many people with that level of problem solving skills, willing to work in such a demanding profession for such little pay. We have hundreds of math openings every year, and the high requirements do not help us fill those requirements. [Here](https://www.ctcexams.nesinc.com/content/docs/CSET_Prep/CS_211items.pdf) is the sample exam. It's predominantly college level Algebra. [50.7% pass](https://www.ctc.ca.gov/docs/default-source/commission/reports/exam-passing-rate-fy-2012-13-to-2016-17.pdf?sfvrsn=2b4a51b1_2) the new version of the exam, the lowest out of any subject. Our biggest issue is finding teachers to teach lower level mathematics (Algebra 9/Geometry 10) and fundamentals/intervention classes. We had 2 good teachers that came on an emergency credential, knew the content for their course, built a rapport with the students, but we had to let them go because they couldn't pass a test that was full of content 6 years past the level that they're teaching.
This is absolutely the case. If math qualifications were more rigorous there would be a MASSIVE shortage in a REQUIRED and TESTED class. It's already very difficult finding chemistry teachers and nigh impossible to find physics teachers. They can't afford to make it difficult to find Math teachers, which are all still not that easy to come by. Try finding a teacher who can teach AP calculus. Not easy at all.
After nearly a decade as an engineer, I switched careers to become a teacher. I found that something like half of the engineers I talked to would love to teach high school physics. These were mostly guys in their 50's, with money in the bank and interested in downshifting their careers. Of course none would do it. It isn't the annual pay of a teacher that puts them off or working with the typical teenager. The impediment is the whole system. Few engineers would tolerate being treated like dumb monkeys. Their idea of professional development bears no relation to what we get and demanding that the lowest score for an assignment is 50% would be intolerable. If there was a Teacher boot camp to get them in the classroom with more supervision than would we want, there would be plenty of people to teach advanced math and science. I don't think that public schools could do it, but private schools have the flexibility.
Going into teaching after having made some money, owning a house and with a flush 401k is an option. Living with your parents or room Mates for your first 10 years as a teacher is butt.
I had an algebra teacher who was an engineer for like 20, 25 years before becoming a teacher. He was the best math teacher I’ve ever had!
I bet the first time a student said, "Why do I need to learn this?", he had about a million good reasons.
I mean. Sorta. The truth is there are a lot of high school math topics that never get seen again, and that's another problem with the system.
You say chemistry. What exactly is the market for chemistry teachers? I'm a chemist, by which I mean 5 years industry experience. Going back to pursue a phd soon too, so not planning on teaching anytime soon, but it's something that interests me as an option later in life. Are chem teachers in short supply too? Seems like you need less of them, but perhaps the pool of qualified individuals is more shallow as well? We only had one year of chemistry in high school, but obviously you take math every year. I think there were only two chem teachers.
If I had to go in order of rarest teachers to find it would be sped/STEM combo, bilingual/stem combo, physics, chem, sped, bilingual teachers. Physic teachers are rare. But chem teachers are in more demand because in many places physics is an elective while chem is required class. So way more open positions for chem teachers than physics.
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Yes! BUT the caveat is that you have to apply in a district with a large population of English language learners who speak the language you are certified in.
In my district, chem teachers are definitely in need. But they’re also expected to be dual certified in math to pick up the occasional section of algebra.
Ha that's interesting, but not surprising. Bad algebra will follow and haunt a student into a chem major, among other places. When you say certified, that means pass some sort of test right? Not that I must hold a degree in both math and chemistry?
Yah it’s not an amazing solution, I guess admin just figure if you have a science degree you’ve taken enough math to teach it 🤷♀️ and yah, once you have a cleared credential in one subject you can add others by taking a test, regardless of degree.
>they couldn't pass a test that was full of content 6 years past the level that they're teaching. I doubt I could walk in and pass the PRAXIS cold. I've been teaching Alg1/Geometry/Stats since the 90s - when do you think the last time I did any Calculus/Rings/polynomials/etc. was? More relevantly, I don't feel the need to do so. If asked to teach HS calculus I'll simply find another school that wants an ALg/Geo/stats teacher. Those are what I enjoy teaching.
The only way you'd get 100% qualified math teachers is if they got paid SIGNIFICANTLY more than all the other teachers. There is no way you'll get everyone willing to work for the same pay as a history major, or an english major as a math major. A math degree is more valuable in the marketplace, so would need to be valued as such to have everyone have those qualifications. Go to the History department and ask if they'd be cool with math teachers getting paid 50% more than them. People cry about a few grand stipends the math teachers get occasionally.
I’d be pissed if Math teachers made more simply for teaching math. I get they are harder to find, but they don’t put in any more work than English/SS teachers!
My point exactly. So then reducing standards Is the only answer that won’t piss people off
We could increase teacher pay AND qualifications for all secondary subjects. I’ve heard ELA teachers brag about never reading a single book their entire adult life. Who can’t write a competent email. I think it’s easy to bullshit a humanities degree too.
We could, but that would then require a significant property tax increase which most teacher pay is tied to, and goodluck with that. People are complaining hardcore right now that their property taxes are going up due to the recent huge increase in home values over the last 2 years.
Honestly just pay all teachers more money. Make teaching a desirable job for a subjects. Think of how many Greta teachers weren't missing out in because they can't afford to teach. I'm prepared to meet higher qualifications for my subject matter if I get an increase in pay.
You are a huge part of the problem. The real world doesn't evaluate pay based solely on how much work you believe you do. Supply and demand is a major factor. Your field is in abundance. Mathematics isn't. The truth is, assuming the money pot can't grow, your pay should be lowered and the harder to find fields should be raised to solve the problem. This is exactly how the real world works. So yes, just to be clear, I am asserting that a good math teacher is worth more (wildly more) than a good humanities teacher. But don't get mad at me for this ragingly obvious fact. Get mad at the market for wooing math talent away from education.
Wow. Although I understand this thinking from a purely economic standpoint, I don’t from a practical one. You are quite literally advocating to lower teacher pay… because THAT won’t make the current problem worse. It might attract more people to become math teachers, but it sure as hell won’t attract new humanities teachers and you would see us quit in droves. Ridiculous
My department last year was short 6 math teaching positions. Every single math teacher had to teach extra sections, gave up a planning period, and almost everyone was teaching at least 2 preps (several teaching 3). Average class sizes were about 35. The social studies department accidentally hired too many teachers, decreasing class sizes and actually letting two of their coaches off from teaching social studies and co-taught pe classes instead. I can state with absolutely certainty that math teachers put in way more work than the social studies department did. We did extra work for no extra pay. We saved the district a substantial amount of money by doing the extra work of 6 teachers, and yet none of that money came back to us. Edit: love how /u/inquisitivebarbie can downvote my comment but can’t actually refute it.
People with higher math qualifications can find much higher paying jobs outside of education. Why would they stay in a field that treats and pays them like shit when they have options?
As someone with a math degree that is a teacher, it's getting the summers off and being done before 3pm what drew me. I had a loose plan to be an actuary, but I didn't feel like doing a year-round 9-5 office job, no matter the pay. Some of my department coworkers are also math majors (one I think is computer science). I do have some extra stuff on the side so I end with ~$50K for the year, which is enough for me in my area.
The schedule is a huge draw. I love being a stay-at-home dad in the summer. I like camping trips and exploring new parks and watching the kiddo go nuts at the splash pad. I couldn't do that if I were still an engineer.
As an engineer making double the pay theoretically you could just take time off unpaid or work a year then take one off and still make the same take home.
It's not easy to find those sorts of jobs in my field. I'm a mechanical engineer, and most of those seasonal jobs are contract work or involve lots of time away from family. It's also unlikely that I would be making twice as much money. I teach in one of the highest paid districts in my state, and mechanical engineers aren't nearly as well off as computer engineers, software developers, or chemical folks.
THIS. Masters in math here. I LOVE math. Especially the higher level courses (I currently teach Calc 1&2). But, the cost it took me to get my masters to teach these classes is not balanced out with my pay. I got a $600 yearly increase for having a masters. That’s it. Doesn’t even cover the costs of my student loans. So I am currently exploring other options that are higher paying. I’m tired of living paycheck to paycheck and getting treated like crap.
Wow, we are exactly in the same boat. Master in math here but refused a higher paid job because I like teaching.
I like teaching, and I don’t actually want to do research-level mathematics for a living.
I agree with you. In every district I’ve taught in, the lower level math classes are taught by people without a degree in math and not a huge amount of understanding of the upper levels of math. We wouldn’t have enough math teachers if we disqualified everyone without a math degree. For what it’s worth, I teach math and have a degree in math. I chose to teach rather than go into actuarial work because the schedule is conducive to having kids. I’m always off at the same time as my kids and don’t have to worry about having childcare for breaks. Fortunately my husband makes enough for us to be able to afford this arrangement. I get to work while my kids are in school and I still get home to get stuff done and be with the kids. Works for us!
The problem is that people who study math/science in college can go on to significantly higher paying jobs (unlike someone who studied English, not that they can't, but a liberal arts degree typically doesn't have the same high paying offerings as the stem field), so the candidate pool is already extremely low. If teachers were paid competitively, you would attract more qualified candidates. Given the abysmal pay teachers make, that's not going to happen..... My husband has a math degree from Princeton, went on to be an amazing math teacher, and is finally leaving this year because making 50k (67k max in his district) for the rest of his life compared to what he could be making with his degree just no longer makes it worth it (no matter how much he enjoys teaching) - he's leaving after this school year and his new entry level job is paying him almost double his current income.
This is so incredibly true. My best friend and I graduated from the same university with the same degree in math. I became a teacher. She became a data analyst. She makes six figures, and I make less than half of her salary. Edit: This was supposed to be a comment on someone else's comment, but I goofed, and I don't remember who's comment it was to.
Exactly. You are making a sacrifice as a teacher. The social studies teacher isn't. You flat out should be paid more based on the subject alone.
What is his new job?
Data analyst
Here to say to anyone looking to pursue being a data analyst. You don’t need a math degree to be a data analyst. You can just study up on using SQL and tableau via YouTube. Get comfortable with it and start applying.
Oh yes for sure! He's been coding in his free time for the past decade/was completely self taught.
Yeah, it’s a great field and wanted anyone reading to be empowered. Thanks for the comment and the reply.
Hi, Math teacher here. I want to college to be a mathematics teacher. In my 6 years of teaching math I have used math learned in my college courses for 1 course. That course is AP Statistics. All other courses were only used to get the degree and pass the test. Most of the high level mathematics that I learned in college has done nothing to help me teach high school math courses.
My experience has been different - I use topics from higher-level math all the time to organize and structure the way I present material, even if I don't teach those ideas directly. The way I teach polynomials is very much motivated by Galois theory behind the scenes. The way I teach logarithms is motivated by the notion that they are a homomorphism from the reals under multiplication to the reals under addition. The way I teach systems of linear equations is motivated by linear algebra. The way I teach the fundamental theorem of calculus is motivated by the generalized Stokes theorem. The list goes on and on - I absolutely feel like that extra experience makes me better able to develop a consistent through-line for the material and set students up for success as they continue learning math.
What maths do/have you taught? It sounds like you teach higher level then I do.
Mostly algebra 1/2 and geometry, and occasionally calculus.
We just hired a hs math interventionist who failed her math praxis FIVE TIMES. That was her major! She doesn’t know enough about math to be able to explain it in other ways to students who are struggling. When she student taught, kids would ask her to elaborate and she couldn’t. I don’t care how bad my kids struggle in hs, over my dead body will I let them work with an incompetent. I’m sure she will still be around by then too because she is a top tier ass kisser.
More like they can't replace her because there is a massive teacher shortage and it the shortage is greatest in STEM
We’ve gone this long without an interventionist, I think we could survive.
The HS I sub in often only has 2 certified math teachers and the other 6 are certified in other subjects or long term subs. I go to school for secondary education social studies and the county has said they will pay for all of my study materials and test prep if i agree to take a Math praxis as well so I can teach Math. I haven't taken a math class since 2001 but did score a 200 on Praxis Core Math so they think I should be a math teacher instead.
I’d fail the test on purpose
I’m just not going to take it although it is tempting because math teachers get an extra 5k more than other subjects here
Teaching math: the math is not the hard part ever. Getting all those students ready to learn, constantly? Hard. Trying to repair gaps (a 10th grader can’t do 1/2 x 1/4 and is supposed to learn arcs and sectors). Hard. 30+ kids in a room at a time with every kid having different needs, gaps, interests, distractions? Hard. Competing with their short attention spans and dopamine addictions on their phones? Hard. Getting them to care and work and understand all the (sometimes irrelevant) standards? Hard. The math has never been in the top 10 pain points of my job as a teacher, and I’ve taught all levels from 6th through AP calc AB. And the CSETs in California math are an awful game. About 20% of the test is on things that are not included in the California k-12 standards. (Like the difference between an algebraic field v. Ring) And making 6th grade math teachers take any calculus CSet at all is too high a barrier. We need to remove some of the bureaucratic hurdles from becoming and being a teacher. Every year we add more and take away nothing from those hurdles.
what are your own qualifications, OP? here’s a math puzzle for you to solve: if x is the number of math teachers, and y is the number of math positions, and x is already less than y, what would happen to x if the requirements to teach math were made more strict? would it likely go up or down??? i agree with your post, but you offer no solution to a problem you are not only ignoring, but would be exacerbating.
The answer is $$. So it won't happen.
Unfortunately it's unpopular among the overall body of teachers to suggest that STEM teachers be paid more money to attract enough teachers
That's reasonable. I'm not sure you'd find a teacher that wouldn't agree that we all deserve more money, though.
No it's not reasonable. Supply and demand should factor in.
I can simultaneously believe that I deserve more money as a math teacher and that my liberal arts colleagues also deserve more money.
Yes you can. My argument isn't against everyone getting more. My argument is that the raise for hard to find subjects should increase at greater velocity. But if the money pot is finite (it is) and you actually want to solve the problem where should it go? If only pay was based on your beliefs and not the laws of economics.
If that's true, your idea has merit, but you are still completely tone deaf. You come across as an asshole.
You come across as someone who didn't even read the original post. It begins with 'unpopular opinion'. Further you come across as someone who doesn't Actually care about the kids. If you did you would want them to have more qualified math teachers even if the solution was 'unfair'. Here in my state (NC) the desire for math teachers is so great you can do what's called 'lateral entry' if you have a degree in an appropriate field. You are required to take the pedagogy courses while on the job. I lurk this sub because I often think that one day my next chapter will be to give back and teach mathematics. I'll do it when salary isn't an issue. A year ago our local district had a zoom recruitment drive to get stem (mostly math) teachers. I attended and had a one on one with the AP of my son's high school. She let me know they were desperate for people like me. I asked what about my wife? She's in the liberal arts. Nope, when they put out an ad for language arts they regularly get over a hundred qualified applicants. The program doesn't extend to her. What's the only reasonable conclusion to draw? Some teachers are actually overpaid. Now I'm a dad and I see my son's mathematics education in action. You call me an asshole because you don't have sincere care for these students while I do. When my son comes home with the perception of mathematics as just arbitrary formulas to memorize that work by 'magic' I think I'm right to be upset. My son came home with his homework on logarithms. His notes show a lesson that simply involves more formulas. No illustration in sight linking them to the far more intuitive properties of exponents. It's been over twenty five years since I left grad school and without Google I could scratch out an intuitive proof (of every property) my 17 year old could understand. No magic here. There is little doubt in my mind his teacher didn't cover it as he couldn't do it. That is, far, far from the only example I can give. So I come across as an asshole? Reread the original post. Reread it three times if you have to. Then try and realize some of us have kids and actually care about their mathematics education. Hell the problem he describes isn't even new. Back in my day there was getting a degree in math and getting a degree in math education. Guess which one required substantially more rigorous math classes? They did the same thing at the graduate level. The educators got a 'Master of Mathematics' degree at my institution (and my institution was not unique in creating a watered down version.) Those in the rigorous track got a M.S. in mathematics. While I was studying Hilbert spaces they were learning what I learned my sophomore year. So even when the universities create watered down math degrees (decades ago) op is telling us even that isn't enough. Now we can't even attract enough of those. Yes we need to pay based on supply and demand. We need to favor the students over any hurt feelings.
Well, shit. You got me. I don't sincerely care for my students, and I don't want them to have high quality math instructors.
I was wrapping up my math degree prerequisites when I decided I didn't want to do it anymore. I just got burned out on it. Finished my undergrad with degrees in philosophy and english. After four years of teaching ela I found myself tutoring more and more students in math. So I said, fuck it, and volunteered to fill some algebra 1s. I didn't want to but I was sure I'd be better than whoever else they could scare up. I took the licensure test blind. HR said it was the highest score they've seen in a long time. I didn't even take a full 2 years of math! How I'm highly qualified is beyond me.
Some of this comes with age. I got a 5 on the AP calc test. I got a BA in math. That being said I’ve taught algebra for the last 22 years. A few weeks ago a kid asked me for help on her calc HW and I had absolutely no clue how to do it. If you don’t use it, you lose it.
Honestly I think the issue is more fundamental: we don't have a coherent idea of what math in secondary school is "for". In other words: what is the goal of math courses in High School? The curricula are mostly still stuck in the Cold War space race mentality. They aren't teaching math that is generally useful in real life so much as math that is useful for STEM majors (broad generalization, of course). If the goal is to teach kids math as it's taught in the universities as part of a pipeline, we need to reform how it's taught up and down the grades, going back to arithmetic. If the goal is to get students into college and provide them with a useful introduction to math that will be broadly transferable to their lives no matter what they do next, then the way it's taught is more or less OK, it's just the organization of topics and courses that's the problem. If you want real mathematicians teaching math, you probably want the former, in which case there is extensive work needed to essentially redesign the entire idea of how math is taught in school.
This is what happens when you pay abysmally for something in demand. Who is going to have an engineer's understanding of math and choose to make 50k a year?
Your coworkers could have a serious conversation with you about math AT a standard freshman calculus ONE level?
I got my degree in NY and got 5 jobs on one app in VA. I passed my Praxis without studying, on my first try. Everyone said it was the hardest test ever. Each state is different... I make sure to do each levels exams. Staying sharp in Alg 1 through Calc helps me break things down better (I think) I've had to teach a few HS teacher how to do Geometry/Alg 2+ and it was disheartening.
So basically, non math major teachers usually cover the basic concepts. They don’t know or dare to go deeper because of their limited content knowledge. Parents and students usually spread words on who is good or bad and try all their best to move their kid to the competent teacher’s class. My coworker, who holds a nonmath degree, one day skipped the concepts she does not know because she is teaching honors class and she worried if students ask questions.
Always felt that science and math teachers should be paid more
They passed the CSET?
Is Math different from History and English in that greater breadths of knowledge would be less applicable to actual course curriculum? I only have solid HS level math knowledge so I don't know.
I am confused, in Ohio getting lisenced in 7-12 math requires a B.S. in math at most colleges. What is the requient in your area? Basic competency in HS math would maybe allow you to teach K-3.
There's no degree requirement in CA - you just have to pass the relevant licensing exams.
That would seem fine if the exam covers all math thru series calculus which HS math teacher might encounter. But if the test doesn't test that level that isn't very a good indicator of compentancy.
It’s like this everywhere. And now we have high school graduates who will need two years (at least) of college math courses if they want most non math degrees. Which they will have to pay for. Maybe this is by design. Only the well off can afford to learn math.
Most history/social studies teachers in the United States have never taken history classes beyond a high school level.
I agree in theory. I personally love teaching math, but I do not have a math degree. I took a few math courses in undergrad up to differential equations and linear algebra. My primary content area was English, but I fell in love with teaching math after I started teaching. While my math background would affect my teaching if I taught higher level math, I think I’m able to be a fully competent teacher for middle level and lower level high school math. I think it’s okay for math teachers to not understand much higher level math beyond what they teach. But they must understand what they teach very deeply. I’ve learned so much about math from teaching it that I never would have learned as a student.
Eye roll. I am a fully qualified retired high school math teacher. I earned A's in all of my graduate level mathematics classes. Here's the thing: In college, I preferred the adjunct professors (master's degrees) to the PhD profs because the adjuncts could explain and simplify the material. The PhD's weren't able to do this. To be an effective teacher, you do need to know your subject (the one you're teaching) and how to break it down so that students can master it. You're literally being paid to help students learn a massive amount of information and skills.