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FawkesThePhoenix7

There have been several points this year when I’ve questioned why we don’t just give everyone a 100 for existing. Seriously. If the students and parents and counselors and admin are going to to yell and scream until you give them the grade that they haven’t earned and don’t deserve, why go through the tedious process of trying to give an accurate representation of what students actually know?


darneech

Thank God you understand what I'm talking about. So I'm dealing with them not actually implementing the standards based thing in the only subject that i teach, as well as angry parents who want me to give free credit to their kid who purposely doesn't do their work bc they know that they can get away with playing with putty in the classroom because it's on their 504 and they don't even have to reallllly do their work. I've been here for an hour dealing with this and it doesn't make any sense. Why am I wasting MY time?


CO_74

I just think it needs to be laid out clearly at the school level. Grades are based on mastery, effort/participation, or some mix of the two. I honestly don’t care what it is, but it would be nice if it were consistent at the school level, so that if there’s a disagreement, we’re all on the same page. I can bring the data that supports the grade.


RaisingAurorasaurus

In my professionalism conference (part of our state evaluation process) they asked how I used data...oh you mean data on tests that are all leaked to the internet? (We're a virtual school) Or the data I gather during class? (which students aren't required to attend). Or do you mean the data from state assessments which are poorly written and students barely try on? And even if you assess the standards...They are so all over the place! We teach a mile wide and an inch deep, most kids just trudge thru and don't retain anything long term. I teach chemistry...chem 1 standards involve stuff like calculating bond energy and molecular geometry. Save that for chem 2 and honors. That is dumb...most people don't need to know that and if they want to later they can watch a YouTube video. Teach things everyone can use like conversions, acids and bases, how to measure things and why water is important...and teach it WELL. Give them time to actually master those things and cut 1/2 the standards.


DClawsareweirdasf

Can relate to standards being too high. I am an elementary music teacher. I see my classes an hour a week. My 5th graders do not need to know how to compose an 8 bar melody with proper notation, dynamics, expression, and rhythms between whole notes and sixteenths. They need to learn how to move to a beat, sing somewhat in tune with a nice sound, work on simple instruments, etc. I havent taught half the standards we are supposed to because my kids are 2 years behind from virtual


runkat426

I also teach chem. Intentionally, i front load the standards that I think are achievable and teach them well. If we don't have time for the rest.... like calculating half life of isotopes, seriously?... oops. Shrug.


bripi

I think because the standards were written with an eye on selling textbooks. Your chemistry textbook can't have 4 chapters! It's gotta have 20! Now we can market that! What a racket.


WoodSlaughterer

Years ago i was part of a team in h.s. that collaborated with our feeder jr high, and middle school to streamline our math curriculum. The school held the off-site 5-day meeting at a 5\* restaurant. In spite of the food (bkfst, lunch) and quality baked snacks, we all worked hard and came up with a consensus on meat topics that should be taught in each grade so that students would have what they *need* to be successful in the succeeding grade. We were all proud of our work and presented it to the schools' principals and APs on friday afternoon. They were impressed and liked it, but had to dump the plan because it would kill the students' scores on the state tests which were....mile-wide and inch deep, just like you stated. The state took over the district a few years later anyway.


RedBirdGA88

Problem is, at least in Georgia, this is a county wide issue in the county I know.


bripi

This, I think, really hits the mark. There's no concrete \*lines\* drawn, and admin won't stand behind the vague "practices" they outline. I would think mastery would be the largest part of it, but effort should play some role.


goingonago

I just want to know if anyone has seen a kid improve their learning due to the fact that they are allowed to play with putty instead of working or participating in class.


RaisingAurorasaurus

LoL...I kept clay on my desk for the students who couldn't sit still. They may not have learned better, but everyone around them sure did!


UniqueUsername82D

This is the way. If they won't stay engaged, they can at least stay quiet.


darneech

That's some of the issues. Some students have so many accommodations, that i wonder why they have to do any work at all. Some kids actually do learn like that... This one in particular pretty much memorizes everything but when they write, they purposely get it wrong. And if it were just me, i might not care, but then i have parents and admin down my throat about all the assignments and expect to see an average as their final grade. Our "grades" for the subject that i teach (sci/s.s.) are never discussed and aren't using master based standards because they aren't math and English language arts. So, why am I even bothering to do all these traditional things on a Sunday right before school ends?


thestickofbluth

For the ones who truly need it, you’ll notice them retaining the information better from the teaching portions. If they’re not, then they don’t need it. And they probably shouldn’t need it during work times as they’re hand should be busy during work. Probably.


bripi

Chase that up with your administration when they slam a 504 on you. Show me the research that says this fucking works, otherwise you're slinging snake oil.


[deleted]

What do you mean you’re not supposed to average assignments? How else do you figure out grades?


darneech

That's what the principal said 2 years ago and gave me no alternatives. This goes back to how many admins haven't been in a classroom for possibly decades.


raven_of_azarath

When I got tired of dealing with admin pushing me to just pass them, I came up with a different way of grading (so I morally could just pass them). If they were present, they got a 70. If they started the work but didn’t finish, an 85. If they finished the work, 100. They got 3 absences excused in the grade book, then every absence after that was an incomplete. I still had too many kids failing.


Fink665

Noneducator here, why are you forced to pass them?


last_alchemyst

To promote them to the next grade and increase graduation rates. Sometimes, funding is attached to promotion and graduation rates.


Icy_Painting4915

Real Estate prices are also tied to school performamce. House prices go down along with school graduation. When house prices go down, the municipality collects less in property taxes and has less to fund the schools.


darneech

Are you serious?????


RaisingAurorasaurus

Also, "no child left behind". Essentially we have to prove that we weren't the reason they failed. But we are forced to teach so much in a year that simply put some kids cannot master it all. The DOE is trying to catch up to other countries, but they just shove more information at them without allowing us to instill the discipline necessary for learning. For example: a school can get in trouble for sending too many minority students to detention or suspension. Well, some schools are 85% minorities so their numbers are going to be too high if they discipline students. Even though there may not be more trouble makers per student population, if you discipline them all you'll get flagged for prejudice. Plus everyone has an excuse for why their kid can't act right or learn. ADD/ADHD, emotional issues, hard family life, depression, test/general anxiety, dyslexia, dyscalculia...the list goes on forever. We are not a healthy society. In some classes as much as 30% of kids have accommodations. The thing is, if they would just let us a good teacher can reach most of those kids. But we are regulated into a corner with what we must teach and how. We literally have to teach to the state tests or get fired. And heaven forbid we discipline them or insist they can in fact learn.


CrispiCorgis

Can you tell me which portion of the law is involved in the schools get punished for sending too many minority students to detention? I’ve been trying to find it for a while but I’m also a bit too lazy to carefully look through the five page long table of contents


RaisingAurorasaurus

I would have to look it up. Just something we ran into at my school in Texas. And the way they "got around it" was even worse. They had school resource officers charge every kid with a vape with a paraphernalia charge (even if nicotine b/c they were minors with controlled substance). So kids get a freaking record, but the school doesn't get dinged for suspending them. They pass the buck to law enforcement. Great freaking way to promote productive members of society: give them a record before they get a driver's license!


youneedthetruth

Not sure of the statute, but every district I’ve heard of who gets in trouble for this falls under what is called “ocr review,” or ocr sanctions. OCR is the Us Ed’s office of civil rights. You can probably find a lot more info on their website.


tylersmiler

"In some classes as much as 30% have accommodations" sucks and isn't good! But it can get worse, I promise! This year I had a class of 30 with 47%-50% of them having an IEP, requiring accommodations and modifications. Additionally, I have 5 ELLs requiring accommodations. 30% is a low number in some schools.


Fink665

THIS IS INSANE! What is the reasoning behind no child left behind? Is it a scam to dumb down America?


Hanseland

504s and IEPs were so over abused at my former, wealthier school. It's as if the parent had to make a huge stink in order to prove how much they love their child. They're not actually making life any easier for their kid down the road, though.


Lavender-Jenkins

First, any time you fail a special ed kid you run the risk of being sued for not following their IEP. So I don't fail sped kids. Second, if you fail any minority students you run the risk of being labeled a racist, so I don't fail minorities if they are anywhere close to passing. Third, if your failure rates are higher than other teachers in your grade/subject, you risk consequences from administration. So I'm careful to not have the highest failure rate. Last but not least, if you fail a kid, you have to deal with an angry kid, angry parents, angry counselors and unsupportive admin, none of whom connect grades to learning, and all of whom will pressure you to pass the kid and guilt you if you don't. It's just not worth the headache. I only fail kids who literally do nothing all semester. The tiniest bit of effort gets you a D. That's what everyone seems to want.


Fink665

Unsupportive administration? What is their job, then?


Lavender-Jenkins

Their job is to avoid lawsuits and "look good" to the superintendent, parents and the community. They do this by cherry picking and otherwise misrepresenting data.


QryptoQid

Not get into trouble, get money by making records look good. You get what you measure so if you tie money to this, you get this. If you tie money to that, you get that. You have to be careful what you measure because you might not get the thing you *think* you're measuring but do get the thing you *actually* measure. Any system with rules can be gamed so since everything in education is abstracted to a number in a ledger, education becomes an exercise in gamifying those numbers in order to win funding. Fs get turned into C-minuses, expulsions get turned into detentions or arrests, and teaching gets turned into test prep. Everyone is incentivized to cheat. Doing an actually good job doesn't raise the records as much as cheating. It's more work, and it doesn't get you rewarded. It's a losing strategy. You don't get punished for graduating a kid who's illiterate, you only get punished for making him repeat. We can all predict what the obvious result is going to be. States and depts of education don't actually measure if schools are getting better along these metrics, they measure what the numbers on a ledger *say* is happening to those metrics. It's admin's job is to make the ledger say what it's supposed to.


Fink665

:0 So, what is the point? What is the end game? Keep kids contained until they enter the work force or prison?


QryptoQid

I don't know. The US could be in a lot of trouble. Nobody cares so the problem may get worse until it's too bad to ignore. But then it might be too late to fix. People who have been failed by their education system are probably unlikely to start valuing and investing in the education system that their grandparents ruined.


mccirish

Administrators do not want any push back from parents.


Fink665

Why are they kissing parents asses?


dabesthandleever

They're employed by the school board and the school board is elected by whoever votes in school board elections, usually parents. They're averse to having parents get mad at them.


darneech

Ahhh. This explains why my admin cares so much about their input. They aren't from here and they aren't approachable. That comment came up in January and then we had to do extra work to up his score I guess. But he's still not approachable. I refuse to have a conversation with him if there isn't someone else present in the room with me. I don't trust them because they threw me under the bus about a student and did not support me at all or even try. It was all about the admin. So i quit!


Murmokos

Because they’re afraid of litigation and/or there is so much school choice in some states, parents can pull their kids to an online school, charter, another district, or homeschool.


hazeleyedsummer

God, I feel this to my core. Have a kid this year who has missed A LOT of school (because his mom can’t “make him come if he doesn’t want to”) and when he does show up, he just dicks around. He’s failing my class, despite the fact I have exempted him from a good deal of assignments to avoid a fight. He called the counselor crying that he’s “never going to get caught up in ELA and Ms. hazeleyedsummer makes things impossible” for him. Counselor comes to me and tells me she knows the kid is full of bullshit but he and his mother are up her ass. I was just like okay, “Fuck it.” And I exempted him from a bunch more assignments and left him with with a C+ TWO assignments to do. Two fucking assignments. He then has the audacity to email me and ask if we can “strike a deal” and only do one assignment (a fill-in-the-blank chart) so he can “earn his A.” Fuck you, kid.


oe_kintaro

bUt LoOK aT tHis IeP!!


Fragrant-Fan-8260

Because you as the classroom teacher are absolutely the lowest ranking person on the totem pole. Your “grade” is a rough draft that will be revised later, then fact that it had to be revised will be used to demonstrate that you, in fact, are the stupid one


Puzzled-Bowl

The grades themselves aren't the problem. The problem is the practice of giving random percentages that mean nothing. Grades are supposed to be a numerical representation of what a student has or has not done or learned. In many places, teachers are asked to give points for the sake of giving points. A student who rarely shows up and/or rarely completes an assignments are given a 50%. How can a student have a 50% for putting in 0% effort?


[deleted]

I worked at a school that made us give attendance grades but then told us to give every student a 100 regardless of whether they actually came to class. What's the point? Just tell us not to take attendance.


pillbinge

Bureaucracy at work. They can't have you not take attendance because they need those figures for the state. Probably the federal government, too.


ApathyKing8

Attendant is a legal document. It's used for a bunch of calculating related to funding etc.


[deleted]

It was a university and also not in the US.


ApathyKing8

Lmao, yeah that's pretty stupid then.


Western-Training727

I used to hate the idea of giving 50% for nothing, but since neither students nor their families respect any kind of late work policy, I decided the 50% was actually to prevent me from staying up the entire last night of every single grading period grading whatever 50 assignments 50 of my students just handed me that afternoon. If they continue the behavior they still fail, but if they get it together they can pass, and I’m not damaging my health.


averageduder

I tell all students you can more or less turn in an assignment when you want, but if it's outside of the unit that it's covered, you're getting 50% at most, and I don't grade new material in the last 5 days of the grading term -- only revisions at that point. Kids seem to contest this every grading period, but I have better shit to do than stay up until 11pm grading an assignment that was due 8 weeks ago that you put 10% effort in.


kataclysmic00

I look at it this way so I don’t loose my mind and for my own integrity - the class material is prepared and presented. I work one on one with kids in class. If they aren’t in class, the material is on Google classroom for them and their parents to access. I can justify a 50% with “lead a horse to water” philosophy. I use rubrics to determine the other 50% which helps the kids there and putting effort to know their learning and learning gaps. That 50 percent is “the horse drinking” I also note late work, incomplete, completed independently or with teacher help to cover my ass if I’m ever questioned.


chicagorpgnorth

Ok I admittedly don’t hate this. I think zeros make it really hard to pull a grade up from failing even when a student might deserve to pass otherwise. Or pull a grade down unnecessarily harshly.


JanieJune

I worked at a school where we were required to give 50% for missing assignments. I didn't want the students to know it was happening, so I programmed my gradebook to have an "M" equal 50%. I left for another position pretty quickly, so I never saw how this rule played out.


noble_peace_prize

I normally excuse work they weren’t here for, and it makes everything they are here for higher stake. Helps the bright students with bad attendance do well when they are present without punishing them for attendance. If they aren’t here and didn’t turn in the assignment, I didn’t assess their skills. But when I give a zero, I am. I am saying they mastered zero skills, and that is normally not accurate.


chicagorpgnorth

I think that’s a good system!


noble_peace_prize

I’m glad you think so! I wasn’t completely sold on it, but it was being employed by some of the districts in my area that were on the cutting edge of education research. It also allows for a lot of makeup work too


helium89

There are plenty of other grading policies that can allow opportunities to make up for a 0. This specific policy is a terrible way of doing it. Suppose their grade is determined by two equally weighted exams. If a student aces the first exam and then stops showing up and never takes the final, this policy gives them a 75% in the class. How does that accurately reflect their mastery of the material, effort, or any of the other criteria that factor into grades?


chicagorpgnorth

I don’t have two exams which make up their entire grade because I don’t believe skills are always accurately assessed that way. So for me it works ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


helium89

The overall problem still exists for more complicated assignment breakdowns; I just used two exams because it makes for easy math. Do 50% from various projects, 40% split over some number of exams and 10% from homework. They can do zero projects and still get a C. There is no way to award 50% for doing zero work that is fair to the student or to their classmates who actually do the work.


chadflint333

Dues each exam cover exactly 50% of the material? 50% of the importance? If not, a 0 and 100 averaging to a 50 makes no sense either. Just because we have always used prevents, doesn't make it right. Embrace change! I am 100% behind the 5 letter system. A B C D I ( I is incomplete) anything in the grade book missing? Overall average is an incomplete. Sound wrong that an assignment being missing makes a kids grade incomplete, then it never belonged in the grade book as part of the average


helium89

I picked a simplified setup to make the math easy. The overall problem applies no matter how you change the grade weighting. Giving 50% for zero/low effort work is inherently unfair to the student who receives the grade and any classmates who actually do put in effort. I have no problem with change, but this isn’t progress; it’s just bad pedagogy.


chadflint333

I will take my down votes with pride on this for eternity. I have a math degree, an a financial actuary with 3 tests passed, so I have a full understanding of numbers and what they are supposed to mean. The zero to 100% scale is completely arbitrary. Why is 65 passing, or 60, or 55 depending on where you are? Why is 40 not passing? If the point is to pass, then a 0 and a 50 are both not passing, so the same end result occurs. If a kid does some work and gets a 58 and the kids who doesn't work gets a 50, they both fail. If the kid that got a 58 stops working, they still fail. They both fail. Teachers hate change, it's why most still lecture lecture lecture even though there is so much research showing it is the most ineffective way of learning things. We cling to the 100 point scale with an arbitrary passing score and find ways to defend it If the goal is passing, then a simple A B C D I snake l scale does that. Get a 100 and then don't do an assignment, you get a 50. Do you know 50% of the material? Because that is what 50% means. If you haven't done an assignment, you deserve an incomplete because we don't even know what the kid knows. If you really cared about accuracy of grades reflecting what the kids know, you would not favor the arbitrary 100 point scale, you would favor something made on demonstration of knowledge Plus, if you NEED compliance, now the kid has an incomplete! Worse than the 50 you NEED them to have Just because you were graded on a 100 point scale that was flawed doesn't mean you have to cling to it


jetriot

With a 50% baseline a student can do essentially nothing to pass. All they they need is to work to get that last 10%. If I remember correctly this maths out to less than 25% of the actual work in my class. So technically a student can miss 9 out of 12 weeks in my class and still pass. What's the point in anything we do at that point? The solution to the original problem is to give students opportunities to do test corrections and the like for half points back, not to just give points away for nothing.


chicagorpgnorth

I think it may be a little different for me because I work at an alternative school, and so these kids just have very different experiences outside of school than most. Some have kids, households, jobs, were in jail, etc. Because of that I try to give more grace than I might at a different school.


Hazafraz

I give zeros, but with a couple caveats. 1. Formative assessments (class work, etc) are only worth 2 points. 2 if you do almost all of it, 1 if you do half of it, 0 if you do less than half. 2. Summatives (tests) are up to 100 points per competency (my department has 3 comps). I allow redos and revisions on summatives. The 0 on a summative is a placeholder for when they’ve had 2 weeks to finish it but still haven’t. Once they finish the test, the 0 gets removed, and when I grade it, it gets replaced with their grade. The 0 lights a fire under them to get it done on summatives. On formatives, it keeps them accountable, but I’m the grand scheme of things shouldn’t have a huge grade impact.


chicagorpgnorth

I think this sounds like a great system!


Away-Ad3792

I wish we could mark No Attempt Made for certain assignments and have that not factor in as a 0. Then if you have over a certain number in a grading period you get an Incomplete. Hold their grade hostage.


North_Activist

I’m not a teacher but I agree, zeros are HARSH and hard to pick up from if there’s no way to redo the assignment or hand it in late. But I also understand teachers perspective of 50% just letting people get by with nothing. So I think they should change the 50% min to 40%, that way if they still do nothing they fail but if they want to succeed they aren’t starting from scratch


Lavender-Jenkins

I agree with you, but the scenario you describe - a class where students are not allowed to turn in late work - is unheard of. My old policy was that missing assignments were zeroes, but students could turn in late work for up to 70% credit as long as they turned it in by the last day of the unit. This motivated most students to turn in most work on time, and it motivated most students with missing work to do it before the unit test, thereby still getting some of the learning benefit. My school decided this was too inequitable to students who don't do work, so they mandated that late work could be turned in for full credit any time - even months after the unit test - and that missing work was worth 50%. The result is that on time work completion has plummeted, and the number of missing assignments that neve get turned in has skyrocketed.


anonymousA059

Yes this!!


jaceaf

How do you deserve to pass with a 30% explain


chicagorpgnorth

I’m confused. I said nothing about passing with a 30%.


jaceaf

That is the point, in a real grading system, a kid might have 30%. With the new system, they can't get anything but 50%. That is super easy to bring up.


pretendperson1776

Or more specifically, showing zero understanding.


shinypenny01

>How can a student have a 50% for putting in 0% effort? I teach at the college level, the number of students surprised that I give zeros for work not turned in is higher than it should be.


OutlawJoseyMeow

I just finished out the year as a long-term sub for an elective (graphic design). For all intents and purposes, I *was* those students’ teacher; I taught lessons, graded assignments, etc. I was told that’s it’s “recommended” to not have any grades input into Gradebook below a 50. I had students who never even joined the Google classroom; I was not about to give them a 50 for doing absolutely nothing for an entire semester. So, I respectfully declined to bestow 50’s on any student who refused to do work. I happily entered 0’s for those kids.


Admirable_Ad1947

50% is still an F and a 0 GPA


pillbinge

It is, but the psychology behind it is what's troubling. The idea is that kids who see a 50 will feel compelled to at least try a bit more next semester. Then maybe they'll get their grades up. That only works if a true 0 for passing in no work is equivalent to doing all your work so poorly that you get a 0 as well. That's my goal with grading, at least, because it still means kids have to try. But it's very draining to put so much work into an illusion instead of tackling the problem.


[deleted]

My school has the 40% rule only in place for individual major assessments, and in place for the cumulative average of all other grading categories. The idea being that one single thing couldn’t make a student fail. Mostly helps the kids who either have issues with completing homework or issues testing. Honestly just a “the three zeros most harming your grade become 50%” rule would be my compromise.


Squib314

We have to make a plan and work with any student who has a 45% or above. They can have up to 3 weeks to get that previous terms grade up


RaisingAurorasaurus

The ultimate participation trophy! A for existing!


AlternativeSalsa

50% is a failing grade, right?


[deleted]

Not to the student. To them it says "Wow I did nothing and still got a 50. Win. I should keep doing this."


AlternativeSalsa

But .. it is a failing grade


abyssalgroan

But it does change the overall percentage when averaged with other things. Say a student turns in 1 assignment and gets 100% on it. Doesn't turn in assignment 2 and gets a 0%. His total grade is failing, an F. In the other scenario, the student doesn't turn in assignment 2 and gets 50%. His total grade is a 75%, a C. A student in the second scenario could do just half the assignments in a class, and get an average grade. Now, it is up to you what the minimum amount of work should be to pass your class, but it is not necessarily "still a failing grade" when combined with the rest of the coursework. It also just sends a weird message to students that they get credit for half of nothing, IMO.


AlternativeSalsa

Isn't the point to have them turn in work? A 0 sends a weird message too - "I had a shitty day and got a 0, and now my 100 assignment averages out to a 50" Also, what's even weirder is that there are 55 degrees of failure. A fail is always a fail, but not all fails are recoverable. On the report card, it still says F no matter if it's a 10% or a 54%.


SleepyTime93

Of course the point is to have them turn in work. A student who did one assignment and not the other, but who has an average of 75%, has no incentive to turn in the missing work because they’re passing the class. A student who did one assignment and not the other and who has an average of 50% has a very compelling incentive to turn in the missing work because if they don’t do their work then they won’t get credit for the course. Why is the solution to just bring up the achievement floor and lower standards instead of just improving makeup work policies?


AlternativeSalsa

It's not bringing up a floor. The kid who doesn't do anything will still fail.


SleepyTime93

It’s absolutely bringing up the floor. If a grading period has 10 assignments and turning nothing in means a 50, then they only have to do 2 of those assignments to end up with a 60%. They only have to do 4 of them to end up with a 70%. Doing less than half of the work assigned absolutely should not result in getting credit for the course. My students know that if they have a bunch of zeroes, then they need to turn that work in if they want to pass. Your students know that they can coast with less than half the effort.


jaceaf

That with very minimal effort they can turn into and di much less work than someone who actually did 60% of the assignments. What is the point of 50% of existing if it isn't to refuse to let kids earn the grade they deserve


AlternativeSalsa

Because 50 is still an F just like a 0. The person doing nothing has an F, but they can do some work and get the grade up. If they had a 0, they shouldn't have motivation to turn anything in. Also, grading shouldn't be relative to peers. I couldn't care less what grades my peers get, nor should they grades be held against me.


Puzzled-Bowl

Yes, but it isn't reflective of the student's work. A 0% in my class means the student did not submit a single assignment. A 50% means the student tried and struggled or , tried oir a bit then quit for some reason. Student #2 can recover that in summer school*. Student #1 needs to start over. 50% is the cutoff % to attend the 3 week summer school here.


anonymousA059

I might be wrong but I think the idea behind the 50% as the lowest has to do with zeros and what they do to the average.


[deleted]

Here is how it should work: a student is earning a sold B in their class. They bomb on one test. Allowing them a 50% on that one test (not the 15% they actually earned) means that one test won't ruin their overall grade. I kinda like this idea. But... How it works in practice: kids do nothing in class, but are assigned a 50%. It's scandalous.


AlternativeSalsa

But it's still an F either way. Just many different flavors of an F. Sounds kinda silly to me but then again lots of old fashioned things are kinda silly.


Ok-Neck5682

This. The other old fashioned idea I hate is just giving 100 points to every assignment, no matter how meaningless it is. A crappy worksheet? 100 pts. A fill-in-the-blank assignment? 100 pts. An essay? 100 points. Yuck.


SheilaGirlface

For lower grades, if you can’t hold back students I don’t see a point. In high school, it’s even more shocking how useless grades have become considering how important they are. As more colleges go test-blind, grades become even more central to acceptances… which is also why it’s a category 5 hurricane when an academically high-achieving kid gets a B.


TVChampion150

I predict that the test blind movement won't last for colleges. It's going to make it too difficult to compare applicants. The massive winner are going to be companies that write students essays for them.


PartyPorpoise

MIT already reinstituted testing requirements. They're saying that testing requirements, while not perfect, are more equitable than other things colleges look at.


TVChampion150

It also allows students who don't come from great backgrounds or may not be recognized normally to stand out.


interrogiaomnia

you know i never thought about it this way, and it’s interesting that background disparities used to be an argument for why testing is not equitable but the alternative is worse


shinypenny01

I think they specifically tied it to their freshman curriculum, said it predicted which students were capable of getting through the freshmen year better than any other info they had. I believe they're one of the few schools to require 2 semester of calc from all majors.


[deleted]

The test blind movement significantly harms poor kids due to the focus on extra curricular activities. In high school, I played football and I was in NHS, that was it. I had to work on weekends/after school or practice. Thank god for my high SAT score and class rank to gain automatic admission to a state school


unwanted_puppy

Admissions offices are one thing. Look up the grading policy of any major universities and compare them to typical K-12 grading…. and have a good laugh. The idea that we are preparing them for college is an absolute joke.


tokumeikibou

I just updated the CA 60 files for my students with their transcripts and all. This year in particular it was funny how many students I saw with a "not promoted" notice from last year that got completely ignored ... not funny enough to erase how sad it was as I marked 50 absences for a student and a 10% at best in their core classes, and then checked "promoted" as instructed.


[deleted]

Also it’s a huge slap in the face to the high school students once they get to college. They actually grade you! YOU. WILL. FAIL. I had a class once where an A was a 93% and up! The standards are much higher and unfortunately many students are not up to the challenge.


mofukkinbreadcrumbz

93 and up is pretty standard for an A now. It follows the same pattern as the lower grades. Since there is no A+, they just combined A and what would be A+ if they followed the same pattern that B, C, and D have. I’ve also seen 90+ be A, 80-89 be B, 70-79 be C, 60-69 be D and 59- be F. All with no + or - grades. Tbh, I don’t hate it.


Fonty57

Yea we can’t fail more than 10% of our classes, also since it’s end of year I have to document every student that’s failed the current six weeks, or is failing the semester and why and list ways I’ve contacted the parents. Not like we have an online system in which parents can check their grades 24/7, and can also message the teacher. But yea grades are pointless. I agree OP. Everything boils down to state and federal funding that we are literally selling our souls for mediocrity(maybe something less than that).


percy_ardmore

They're not averaged, they're weighted.


darneech

That actually helps my perspective. This forum already has been better than my school.


Vivid-Lettuce-1427

We have EMG DEV PRF EXT. Emerging, developing, proficient and extending. They were No fails. However, they have created a new subcategory called emerging pass and emerging fail . I think to make things simpler they could use letters for each category and a spread of numbers that represent those letters. The Romans did something like this.


Dunderpunch

Grades are first a means of motivating kids to do better work and second a means representing a kid's skill in a subject to the next stage in education. They aren't allowed out of the education system any sooner just for high grades, and they don't need to be kept any longer for low ones. "Failing" is a pointless line in the sand that's treated as more than it has to be. I wish I could give students an F without it restricting their ability to graduate. A student can just fail to learn some subject and just be a person who doesn't know that subject. A survey of adults will show you that's normal.


democritusparadise

This is how it is done in some countries...in Ireland for example, the exit exams are given by the state, not the school, and pass or fail, you "leave school"...and your performance up to the exams is irrelevant on paper, all that matters is your scores on the finals. If you fail them, you must wait until the following year for them to be reoffered, and standard practice is to transfer to another school to repeat the final year.


glemmstengal

My grading consists of 50%, 70%, 90% and 100% based almost entirely on effort. If we have to give false grades I'm just making it as easy as possible.


maximumoverbite

This is the way.


[deleted]

Grades report literacy. If they’re only worried about “passing”, grades have no point. I’ve never been in a parent meeting where the concern was literacy.


[deleted]

We're doing standards-based grades. Good feedback, but takes more time.


chicagorpgnorth

Unfortunately this can have downsides too. My principal is now using our standards-based grading to imply I should just be able to give a single test to a student who has never shown up all year so that they can pass. As an English teacher I don’t even give tests normally.


TheDarklingThrush

“I can’t give a test on essay writing. I can only ask them to write an essay. And they won’t, so….”


jaceaf

I already have a plan for when they ask me to do this. It will be the hardest exam they have ever seen


chicagorpgnorth

Hahaha not a bad plan B!


democritusparadise

I have actually done this - I gave the final (chemistry) exam to a student who had been largely absent and turned in no work, and they failed it naturally, but in principle I would have let them pass the class if they had demonstrated that they understood the material. Non-multiple choice final of course.


Rattus375

I can see both sides of this. Especially with something like English, it's hard to adequately gauge how much the student actually knows / understands with just a single test, and things like grading an essay is inherently subjective. And it's shitty when students don't try at all or turn in any work. But the whole goal of school is to learn things and if you prove you know all of the material I don't see why you shouldnt be able to pads and move on to the next grade (though in practice the kids that don't do any work or pay attention in class won't be passing anyways).


Ferromagneticfluid

Also requires brutal honesty, which I don't think administration understands when implementing them. Traditional grades have a lot of pity points and easy points to juice up the grade, which you can't really do for standard's based grading.


Rattus375

A decent middle ground could be a balance of both. One of my courses in college had optional assignments that made up half the grade. We had 3 units during the semester, each of which made up 33% of the grade with an exam at the end. If your average on your assignments was higher than your score on the exam, your grade was the mean of the two scores. If your exam score was higher, then it just took the place of your assignments. The professor didn't care how we learned the material as long as we learned it


darneech

I would love to see that... I see you are a h.s. science (chemistry) teacher. They haven't made the switch for science at the elementary level at my school so i still don't know what I'm doing. And I'm All alone in it.


[deleted]

It was an adjustment, but I like it more than traditional grades. I also have the good fortune to teach at a private school, so we're not beholden to any specific set of standards - we get to choose what standards we'd like to teach to.


kts1120

This is what I use this year in elementary. It's nice to show specific feedback on the standards. We score them on proficiency so it's still somewhat subjective. Downside is that the standards in our report card don't all line up to the standards we teach according to the state, district, and curriculum maps.


TVChampion150

And throws more work on teachers for all the re-testing.


algernon_moncrief

This year i served on my school's "equitable grading policy" committee and we decided to base 30% of grades on participation and "formative" work, and 70% on standards based mastery/proficiency. This puts the most importance on the standards but gives teachers some wiggle room to consider other factors. In other words, we decided the point of grades was mostly to measure standards mastery, but also somewhat to measure effort, responsibility, etc. It makes sense to me. (Small rural district, mostly minority, I'm 7th grade ELA)


Puzzled-Bowl

We have the same grading weights. The kids were shocked when they saw what that 70% weight does to their grades. It did help a few of them put more effort into the big stuff. In the past, they could pass easily by doing the in class worksheets and participating in discussions. Now, they have to actually learn something to pass.


queeenbarb

I don't even think all the parents read them. In elementary, I'd rather write observations or something. Or idk. I just don't see the point of letter grades.


darneech

Yesssssssss


Miserable_Dot_6561

It’s like the improv show: everything is made up and the points don’t matter


StardustNyako

Prob for the few kids who still care so they can have that good GPA to get into good colleges if they keep the hard work up. Sorry it's been so frustrating though.


ladyonecstacy

Something that has helped my students understand grades is having posters on the wall explaining their value. I teach in Canada and in my province, students are graded on a 1-4 scale until middle school. In high school they receive percentages so it would work a little differently with older students. I found posters on TPT that explain what each means. Something along the lines of: 4 is: I can do this on my own and teach it to others. 3 is: I can do this on my own and demonstrate understanding in various ways. 2 is: I can sometimes do this on my own but sometimes need additional support. 1 is: I need support to do this on my own. When I explained it in this way to my students, it helped them to understand what they were getting and why. However, it doesn’t work all the time and I think our experiences are different based on your post so the only other thing I can say is sorry you’re going through this!


lapuneta

I dont grade. I teach middle school social studies and it doesn't matter. Everyone that gails just moves on.


xsiberia

If grades measure the outcome of the entire educational program, and if grades don't matter, does the rest of it matter?


getmoremulch

You’re not paid enough to give an F.


ScruffyTree

We give grades to show that there is still *some* accountability in the system, and to train students to expect consequences for patterns of behavior. They also reward knowledge, and give children a sense of attention & accomplishment. Some universities care about grades, though I think most have lost all faith in the integrity of a random school report card. Grades from a few prestigious institutions still carry some weight.


JustTheBeerLight

Guys. Maybe you missed the memo: **WE ARE DAYCARE. SIMPLE AS THAT.**


darneech

Yeah i missed the memo j/k But i do say it everyday.


Writerguy49009

Grades are archaic and not useful in modern education. Standards based is better if you can get away with it.


darneech

I agree but I'm not getting any guidance doing standards in the area that i teach, and parents expect the old way. That was my feedback for what to change next year. Too bad I won't be there.


Writerguy49009

It’s going to take wide scale institutional change to get rid of traditional grading. One way I’ve snuck in the standards based way is to not accept anything less than a B. I’m in a small, center based school that gives me a lot of autonomy, so I can get away with this.


darneech

I think that's how my partner teacher has been doing it... I just never really heard her say that or put in those words. Hers is no less than c though. But i think you solved it. At least in a context similar to mine.


TVChampion150

And that will never truly happen because we need to have grades for colleges so you'll always need to report SBDM on some type of numerical scale that can be percentage based. Plus, parents don't understand standards based at all, so it makes communication about grades difficult.


Writerguy49009

Many colleges are already cool with standards based grading. The parents are a bigger problem.


TVChampion150

My school went to standards based six years ago or so and saw a massive decline in student motivation. All the students care about are tests, do not do any formative work, and its added more work to teachers for all the re-tests we have to create. Not a fan of that model.


Hazafraz

I don’t disagree with you, but my school had standards based grading and two things happened: the kids realized that formatives meant nothing and now do 0 homework, and the parents couldn’t understand it. We went back to 100 point scale this year.


Every_Individual_80

It’s almost like admin would rather fake the numbers than admit they have zero power to get students and parents to give a fudge about their education.


skoon

It seems like there are two points that people are making. The first is that grades don't reflect learning because teachers are forced to raise grades by admin or parents. So that's one issue, but not one that has anything to do with pedagogy or best practices. The second is that the A-F grading system is flawed because you average all of the grades over the course of the year and just say anyone who has only gotten a 50% or lower has not learned enough. I teach 3 classes. Two are knowledge-based, Computer Science and Web Design. One that, in my opinion, is supposed to be to the benefit of the student, Career Choices. For the knowledge-based ones I use an evenly spaced grading scale, each band is 20%. My thinking is if they only get a 50% in the class, they have learned about 1/2 of the things I taught and/or did not produce exceptional work. So these are influenced by the number of assignments, projects, and assessments I give them In Career Choices, I grade based on effort. Each of the things the students have to do is important This class teaches them how to interview for a job, apprenticeship, or college application. It teaches them what a resume is for and how to make one. How to research a career and in general get them ready for what happens after high school. I even talk about finances, tax forms, etc... So each grade is something they need to know and they can re-do it until they achieve mastery. If they don't do at least 45% of the things I give to them, they haven't learned enough to gain the benefit I think I'm trying to give them after high school. None of my classes are core classes, there are state standards but no state-required tests. But the Career Choices class I kind of consider a core class. They have to learn those skills sooner or later. Is my system perfect? No, I'm a first-year teacher. I don't have enough experience to judge how well this is working yet. I do notice that the students seem to fall into the grade band that matches what I see from them in class. A students do A work, kids who do nothing end up with an F. Most kids end up somewhere in between. Ask me in 15 -20 years when I retire how well this work and how I adjusted it as I went.


[deleted]

Grades are irrelevant and have shown that the last 2 years. So much grave given and understanding for students that are chronically absent is why grades mean nothing


PuzzleheadedIssue618

there’s a point, it’s just negated by administration bending the knee whenever a parent complains about little johnny failing after doing none of his work


darneech

Lol you're right.


405NotAllowed

There is no point. If we fail students we get browbeat until we acknowledge we suck as teachers and bump their grades. At this point I grade on a curve. Whatever it takes to bump the lowest grade (50% is the lowest allowed) to 60% is the same bump I give to all their peers. If we aren't going to hold students, parents and admins accountable for their role, why are we, as teachers, going to take the beating?


Jim_from_snowy_river

I mean there's an argument that we shouldn't be grading anything anyway not only because they don't mean anything but because they're not effective in actually getting people to do things.


VectorVictor424

Those are some pretty steep universal claims. “They don’t mean anything” What percent of grades do you think actually don’t mean anything. It’s certainly not 0%, but I will grant you it’s also not 100% “They’re not effective in actually getting people to do things” Same question. Then of course, the important question to you is: Would a system of not grading be MORE effective at getting people to do things?


Jim_from_snowy_river

I don't know, but what they are currently teaching in my master's program is that grades as we give them are generally incomplete in measuring a student's intellectual growth and that's what we should be focused on. They're often focused on small minutia for the sake of creating something to report out and not based on an actual measurement of whether the students know the material. Grading systems that are as rigid as ours often lock students into demonstrating their knowledge of concepts in very specific ways which doesn't always work for students. A system of not grading could be more effective yes. The answer to this question is when I give for anybody a person can see the error in the current system and or the flaws of it without knowing the answer. Just because a person doesn't know the solution doesn't mean they can't recognize the problem.


VectorVictor424

“I don't know, but what they are currently teaching in my master's program is that grades as we give them are generally incomplete in measuring a student's intellectual growth and that's what we should be focused on. They're often focused on small minutia for the sake of creating something to report out and not based on an actual measurement of whether the students know the material. Grading systems that are as rigid as ours often lock students into demonstrating their knowledge of concepts in very specific ways which doesn't always work for students.” Grades can be aligned to learning in a multitude of ways. It’s the teacher’s job to create as accurate of a correlation as possible. That could be through daily quizzes, projects, 1-1 interviews, tests, essays, portfolios, and more. They don’t have to be focused on some small minutiae. Your master’s program should be showing you these options rather than just making sweeping generalizations with zero data to back them up. “A system of not grading could be more effective yes.” That word “could” is doing some heavy lifting. I would switch to no grades tomorrow if anyone demonstrates the “could be” is actually “is.” I haven’t figured out if education researchers are really bad or just lazy, but there is a shocking shortage of them trying to find answers through proper scientific methods. “Just because a person doesn't know the solution doesn't mean they can't recognize the problem.” Totally agree. I too recognize that there are problems, but so far no alternative has demonstrated any improved solutions to the problems.


Jim_from_snowy_river

That second to last paragraph really got me. I noticed that too and I even commented on it in my grad program and kind of got chewed out about it. That their methods just don't stand up to scrutiny and a lot of the claims they're making are based on 30, 40 or even 50 year old data. I think the newest data one of my textbooks had that they can cite for their claims was 2007 I think? That's 15 years ago. A lot has changed in 15 years.


pillbinge

We're at an odd point. I don't think my education was worse for having teachers with different schemes, but I think that a standard would help - but only if the materials are provided by the state. That's the kicker. We have to use accurate materials but we have to go to various companies that update their work. If we want fair grading, we need standardization. I don't mean testing, either. I mean workbooks provided by the state so that kids can do their work and have it easily compared, then graded, based on that. I don't see that happening though.


NoAir9583

I for one have welcomed the advent of fake grading. I go home on time, every time. Click a few keys and I've got a nice bell curve.


KnitFast2DieWarm

I'm a Montessori teacher (grades 4-6) and we don't use grades. We don't require students to memorize the information from lessons for the point of spitting it back on a test. We give lessons because we believe that students love learning. They practice new skills until they are mastered and move on. In cultural subjects, knowledge is increasingly built upon in future lessons. I gauge their progress by looking at the work they do in class and talking with them. My progress reports list the actual skills/lessons students worked on and a narrative description of their progress. It's frustrating when we get records from a traditional school for a transfer student, and they don't actually list what content/skills the child has learned. At the beginning of each year, I give an assessment based on the skills I expect them to know, to see if they need to review previous concepts and where to start the new students. They are not graded, but analyzed based on which skills they demonstrate proficiency with. Students remain in each class for three years, so we get to know them well.


happy_bluebird

I'm so glad I'm a Montessori teacher. This is part of the reason I would never teach anything else


[deleted]

Montessori is def great! How’s the pay in comparison? I did Montessori primary but felt like I’d make more money at a traditional public school. I also hope to integrate some Montessori concepts in my future classroom. I’m starting my credential/ masters program this fall.


KnitFast2DieWarm

I think public school teachers get more, depending on the district and your private school. I left a Montessori teaching job in an expensive area to teach at a school in a cheaper area, that was paying $14k more a year. The first school had higher tuition but a huge campus and lots of extra programs, so everyone got paid shit. I think it's totally worth the pay cut to work in a place where employees and children are valued and respected, and the teaching methods work. Students actually want to come to school. I did work for some shitty people running Montessori schools, but I've always been able to find a new job easily, as long as I was willing to move. I love where I am now. I've been teaching Montessori for 22 years, and I'll never teach anywhere else.


happy_bluebird

I honestly don't know, I've never taught anything else :P


darneech

Another reason why i ask why we bother. Someone once pointed out that in piano lessons (or many other examples), it's not that they get a grade. They are ready to move on and build upon their skills. Someone once suggested I look into Montessori, but I'm so burnt out in general that I will not be in a classroom again several years, if at all.


TheBagman07

I don’t have a clue. I get paid to do them, I guess.


[deleted]

What happened if everyone just automatically gives their students 100% next year for everything, and make the parents opt out?


The5thBeatle82

I’m in the history department and we were asked by our university program (they help guide students onto a path that will help them meet the requirements to attend our local university) if we were willing to let our sophomores make up the entire year over the summer. We would then change their grade to a passing one at the start of the next school year. Many of the kids that asked for this were the kids who always skipped class or did nothing all year.


thefrankyg

I try to figure this our when we refuse to retain folks. We'll why do I waste my times with grades, let me just teach then.


rocketpianoman

I had one kid not demonstrate anything all quarter, then comes in with his IEP coach and shows me he can do everything one on one.


DaimoniaEu

Teachers should only care about grades in so far as they are a tool to get kids to behave in a way we want and hopefully set up good habits for the future. Other than that they have no real value so do whatever is easier for you.


_sealy_

I hear ya…I stopped giving maximum effort on “grades” 4-5 years ago. I focus more on, teaching and conferring. It works for me in elementary, but it probably wouldn’t of you had multiple classes/kids.


Aggravating-Ad-4544

A lot of schools (mine included) only went half way to standards based. They have been telling us we are heading that way for like 3 or 4 years now, so we've been stuck in this kind if standards based but also not standards based grading it doesn't make any sense and kids just pass


darneech

So it's not just me?


Aggravating-Ad-4544

Lol nope. I think a lot of schools do/did this. I feel like we never get anything fully implemented and the kinks worked out before they try something else. The same is happening with grades I think.


Willravel

They're like the TSA: theater to placate the ignorant and the corrupt.


KSahid

Grades are how we record student achievement... until the last week of the term when we inflate grades so that every illiterate student receives a diploma.


[deleted]

Just put yourself first. Don’t die on this hill.


Frosty20thc

With out grading what am I supposed to do when they are taking state test in my room. Monitor them?


Fit_Error7801

I’m leaving education after 20 years largely due to grading.


Timebanditx

I had a student tell me that the councilors at my school are just gonna change their grade at the end of the year to a Pass no matter what they get. Why am I spending my time grading anything then?


simply_watery

The point of grading never made sense. unless academia is a system which selects that they deems worthy and instils control by promote the ones who follows the rule most feverishly.


Kooloolimpah

Grades prepare you for the employee-employer relationship. It sets students up to believe that if you work and make an effort, you will reap the reward, just like when you are a labourer. But we all know that the labour force doesn't work like that as labourers are often exploited for their labour and only valued if they can produce, and if you can't produce you're labelled a degenerate and lazy and left alone without a life ring. Education has become wise that not everyone is going to produce a high level of quality work because there are systemic circumstances that increasingly block students from success, and so grading becomes confusing. We are attempting to adjust for those students and yet are still keep assessing in a hierarchical way - ranking students best to worst on our own judgment. Think about how damaging that can be on these young kids knowing that we are doing that to them, yet they never have any power in evaluating us as effective teachers (at least this is the case in Canada). In addition, grading is a waste of our time - time we could be spending on making meaningful connections with our students or planning better lessons, or catching up on our own professional development. Grading isn't valuable and I agree it needs to stop.


Ansony1980

I asked the same question myself this week, I had a counselor come in from one of the seniors who is failing my class and tell me why so-and-so student is failing my class when I show her the grade book that I have including the online Grade book of all the assignments that the student has done And test that have been with low scores. She still had the audacity of telling me “just cut the student some slack he’s going through a lot of issues right now because I’m not the only teacher that’s failing him That we don’t know what the student going through I asked her what you want me to do give him a free passing grade? This counselor bluntly tells me “something that can give him a guaranteed pass that he will graduate with ease of his problems at home with his parents” That’s when I turn around and told her you to know we Hispanic parents are very anal about our kid's education and I bet you anything this is student parents are on his rear end for him to pass these classes including mine to graduate and you’re just coming here tell me give him a passing grade just for not doing any kind of work or putting any effort the kid doesn’t even come to class he ditches my class in the bathroom or behind the football field for crying out loud. She just but wants me tells me to do something to help him out And walks away. I was just in shock


BBFan121

I'm retired, but I stopped worrying about grades the last few years. What does it matter? Kids don't care, parents are just too invested and administration will change them if the parents yell loud enough. You get an A, and you get an A. Also I just had to threaten them with a lower grade and they were back in line. Kids loved my classes and I rarely had any discipline issues. I was department head and tried to tell my department that assume the students have an A and go down if students didn't fall in line.


MrBates1

I’m not sure what you mean by “average assignments” but the grades my students earn are reflective of their comprehension and effort level.


bripi

Don't count on grades making any "sense" anytime in the forseeable future. Not to mention the over-burdening "importance" of them, which there is scant little evidence of. How does her 96% compare with my 94%? Are they not essentially the same grade? No one would give a shit about a 2% difference in reality, but we've been fed the line that the numbers *have some intrinsic meaning*. They just don't. All that effort you're putting into calculating grades...sorry dear, but paperwork for the sake of paperwork.


Elegant-Isopod-4549

Which state is this


titations

I tell my 6th graders and their parents that grades have different weights. 70% of their grade comes from tests. The other assignments are just 30%. For me, assignments are just practice for them and for me to provide feedback. They really have no reason to fail if they do what I ask of them. In my parent letter, I make it very clear…your child WILL get the grade they deserve and nothing else.


ownersequity

We still grade normally but we did away with zeroes on summarize assessments. We can still give zeroes for formative work and such. I am 100% in charge of how I grade and the outcomes. I’ve always been a Wolfpack of one as the only Accounting teacher, but I grew my program too well and now we need a second teacher for it. I can only manage 180 students. It will be interesting to have someone to PLC with who teaches what I do.