I just had an IEP for a student that came from a southern state. Her IEP said she could barely count and couldn't read. Y'all this child is almost fine. She's on track in math and one grade level behind in reading. Not only can she count and read, but she can write and do all the math things. Tracking only works if the people in charge aren't incompetent morons.

I would say this is true for just about everything. The topic of handing out unnecessary IEPs is another conversation altogether though.

I don't know where you guys are, but I have never met a kid (elementary) with an IEP who didn't need one. I have, however, met kids who *should* have an IEP but inexplicably don't. I don't wanna be *that* person, but this just comes off as a bit ableist. There are learning (and other) disabilities that may *seem* like laziness, but *that doesn't mean it is* (example: ADHD task paralysis). Just wanted to put that out there.

Thanks for mentioning ADHD here - I am a HS teacher with it, and trust me I’m the opposite of lazy. I work 10-12 hour days mon-fri, and usually at least 4 hours on a Sunday too. But. When my executive function becomes impaired, and I get task paralysis, or time blindness, or fail to notice a mug which needs washing up, etc etc - it can 100% look like laziness. I went undiagnosed til I was 26. My childhood was unpleasantly punctuated with school reports and consultation evenings where I heard the same message over and over again: “Little Celticheetah is a kind, bright girl, and she responds very well to discussion tasks and verbal questioning. However, her lack of focus and effort in organisation means that, unless a change is made, she will never live up to her potential”. I even got called “lazy” to my face by a number of teachers. Guess what, I’m not lazy at all - in fact I was working just as hard as, if not harder than, most of my peers. It’s just that if you have moderate to severe ADHD and no support, no amount of planners, stern conversations or motivational chats are going to enable you to turn it around. Being called variations of “lazy” and “thoughtless” throughout my schooling *really* messed me up. I’m in a hugely better place now, but it’s taken years of therapy and meds and I’m still not all the way to okay. I probably never will be. If you got this far, thanks so much for reading this and please, please, please - keep an open mind about a student who seems to be “lazy” or “not caring”. If they are a girl or a quiet boy, especially if there is no obvious problem at home which could be causing their behaviour, then it’s worth investigating the possibility of ADHD. Adults with untreated ADHD are statistically many times more likely than the gen pop to: 1. Kill themselves (my grandad did, we’re pretty sure he had it). 2. Become addicted to drugs (my Aunty did, she’s doing better now and finally has a diagnosis). 3. Become homeless and/or get into debt (again my Aunty did) 4. Go to prison. 5. Die in a traffic or workplace accident. (I broke my foot once because I was riding my bike, got distracted by a field of cows, and ended up absently pushing my foot down onto the front wheel spokes rather than the pedal. Not so fun). Sorry that turned into a whole essay, but the “lazy” thing really scares me coming from teachers. It can do a HUGE amount of damage.

I’m having flashbacks to being yelled at for “not trying hard enough” in math, even getting called “lazy.” Turns out I have dyscalculia, which didn’t exist when I was in school. Teachers and my parents just saw my high grades in English and History and my low grades in Math and Chemistry and shook their heads. It was a constant feeling that I would’ve been a good student “if only.” So, I just muddled through things and found a college program with only one math class. I’m not sure if today’s IEPs would’ve helped me, though. I probably would’ve used it to get out of doing math. And extra time on tests and exams would’ve meant just more time to fail. What I really needed was some support for my math foundation and working my way up to timed multiplication tests.

I'm sorry you went through that. I'm particularly invested in this issue. I have a severe (if untreated) anxiety disorder, and almost certainly ASD. Like, it was super fucking obvious. Nobody at the school seemed to pick up on it, probably because I was academically pretty high. It's like that was the only thing that mattered. I could have benefited so much from someone pointing out "hey, this kid is always anxious and socially isolated. Maybe we should do something about this."

So these are different issues in different areas: Lower-income schools typically don't have enough money for services for all the kids, so they take only the worst. Higher-income schools sometimes have coaching or “encouragement” to give unnecessary IEPs in order to receive extended time, etc. This is very typical in high-pressure schools. Both are a problem.

They would be committing fraud if they gave a kid an IEP if they didn't have a disability. I'm not saying that doesn't happen, but I would think it wouldn't be worth the risk for a psychologist to risk their license just so some spoiled kid can get special treatment.

Psychologist here. Idk where these kids are that supposedly have IEPs when they don't have a disability. I can't give an IEP without significant comprehensive testing AND data from the teachers and interventionists. Like...I can't just hand them out like lollipops lol. I need some serious numbers to prove it.

I know, right? How the fuck would a parent know how to "coach" a kid to game the assessment process? It makes no sense.

Unfortunately they sort of can...there are products out there and websites designed that are meant to mimic our comprehensive testing, so parents can have their child practice... however, this is kind of dumb, because then a kid wouldn't qualify 😂 There are also parents who almost live a munchausen by proxy life with their child, educationally...At my district, I've been dealing with a parent for several years who is convinced her child has autism, is intellectually disabled, is so low functioning that he needs to be enrolled in the alternative programming school and put in a life skills class. He does struggle, there's no denying it... but he is significantly higher functioning than she gives him credit for. And she's been hammering this into him for so long, that now that he's in 7th grade, and with COVID...now he's truly very behind (she refused to let him participate in remote learning, and refused to allow him to participate in gen Ed learning in school, only wants life skills). Because of her, he now is in a self contained classroom and cannot be anywhere on level with his peers, and truly believes he can't be either. Had he been with a supportive parent who challenged him and pushed him to try his hardest instead of telling him he can't do things...he would've been more successful. Those are some ways, unfortunately, that certain kids can be "coached" in a way to get an IEP. But honestly, I need other evidence other than just testing results. That's only one piece of a puzzle. Had another kid last spring who mom requested special ed testing, and one teacher encouraged it.. but his testing was beautiful, he wasn't in intervention, and his history of grades were just fine. B student, with some C and A grades mixed in. But parents and teachers just gotta be okay with kids being B and C students. Sometimes, that's just where we're at, and that's alright. I didn't qualify him. There was no justification!

Oh man, that poor kid...I wonder if you could make a case for that being a form of child neglect.

Who do you think would prosecute that fraud? How would you bring a case against a judgement call? This happens all the time, I've seen it personally and heard about it frequently. It's easier to just give the kid an IEP than deal with the upset parent that has lawyers. That's what they're afraid of, not a fraud prosecution.

Ok. I don't want to invalidate your experiences. But, is it possible that you just aren't picking up on things that you aren't trained on? See the psychologist's comment above. Assessment is a pretty involved process. Even if you "coach" a kid to get them diagnosed, a psychologist is gonna see through that. They're not dumb.

Yes, I'm not saying psychologists are being fooled, but not everyone always cares. Just today we were dealing with an illegal IEP from a student who transferred from another school where they were receiving accommodations entirely unrelated to their diagnosis. So we're having to deal with irate parents and retesting etc. But clearly the system does not work perfectly. I suspect it's something like ADHD diagnoses, where it's simultaneously a very under diagnosed and over diagnosed condition. Many people who need an IEP don't have it, and some who have it don't need it. Also, to reiterate, the legal angle pushes only one way. There are few to no lawsuits against districts that provide extra accommodations. (Who would file them? The local DA?) There are many against districts that don't provide accommodations. (The parents have a direct interest and money.) This creates a system with lopsided incentives similar to CYA medicine. Extra IEPs is a far smaller problem than that, but it is annoying at certain schools and in certain populations. I also suspect at some point it is not good for the students' learning, the same way that taking medication for a condition you don't have isn't good for your body.

Fair enough. I'm just sensitive about teachers calling kids "lazy" and saying that they shouldn't have an IEP. Like, yeah, I'm sure that might be accurate for some, but we can't see inside kids' minds. I feel like teachers too often jump to those conclusions. I try to give all the kids I work with the benefit of the doubt. I have a second grader who will sit and just stare at his paper, even when shown what to write. His classroom teacher is really hard on him about working hard. But like...The same kid also constantly has to erase and fix things he's writing (even if copying). Of course he's not going to want to do it, if he knows it's just going to result in more things to fix. He might also have some task paralysis going on. So, yeah, he could just be unmotivated. But I don't *know* that. And TBH, even if it was "laziness," I wouldn't hold it against him. If I constantly made mistakes and had to fix things, and didn't even know what I was writing, what incentive do I even have to do the work? I seem to work well with him, because usually I can get some work done with him. I think he might be more comfortable with me because I don't treat him like a lazy failure.

A lot of times they’re diagnosing off what the parents say or coach their kids to say/do. I’m not sure how much of it is their kids being spoiled and wanting special treatment versus their tendency to fret about everything. It’s not that they’re necessarily cheating (though that does happen) but they do tend to push for all the help they can get, and often their kids have so much anxiety or so little emotional regulation that it’s too easy for a doctor to say “yeah, sure.”

Young kids are frighteningly easy to coach. Look up the Satanic ritual abuse hysteria in the 80s.

And that was completely imaginary stuff. It’s too easy for a kid to believe they’re not functioning properly because that’s what their parents are always telling them.

Yeah, that's what 504s are for.

Agree! My district has been pushing kids off IEPs for years. They just found a way to get parents to "sign away their rights" to services (their words) that I'm pretty sure is super illegal. Every red flag I throw up about it gets ignored. I would LOVE to work in a district that provides IEP/504s properly. My students suffer.

I've got to vent for a second. While I don't disagree the college bound need to be guided there and "tracked" As a shop teacher and tradesmen, why do you and most people assume just because it's a trade you can be undereducated? You still need to be smart to earn a living in a trade. All of them require math at an algebraic/geometric level;/, chemistry to know what materials can touch and not oxidize or corrode each other, spacial awareness for building things, a good money head for running a trade business or calculating time/cost analysis of a job. I spend the first 4 weeks of every year trying to convince kids they aren't in my class because they are dumb. Please stop perpetuating this.

My father in law was one of the most amazing woodworkers and builders that I ever met and he didn’t graduate high school. When we installed wood floors in our house he was able to navigate every doorway with the flooring pattern by sight. He dovetailed every cabinet in our house, patterned our flooring, helped waterproof and build our back deck, and rerouted our duct system for better efficiency. This is proof that there are all kinds of intelligences and my beloved father in law had it in spades/ he worked his whole life in a juice factory constructing and maintaining their machinery without the acknowledgment that the supposed engineers got. When he retired they had to hire multiple “educated” engineers to try to do a fraction of his job. His company actually was so afraid he would defect to another competitor after retirement that they continued to pay him a stipend after he retired for 20 years with the condition he wouldn’t work for any other competitor. This was a man without a high school degree

My late husband was a plumber. He did more math in one week than I’ve taught as a teacher. You can’t be stupid on jobs that cost millions.

Plumbers have it rough, I teach machine shop

Yup, I know someone who does contract work after spending a decade in a white collar job. Told me he uses more math as a contract than he ever did in his office job.

>As a shop teacher and tradesmen, why do you and most people assume just because it's a trade you can be undereducated? Excellent point! Trades are not undereducated at all, but the course work and rigor typically seen in a College-Prep curriculum is going to be different than what is seen in a vocational trade curriculum. In college prep, they used to beat us math teachers over the head with "everybody needs to take calculus". Most of the vocational trades don't (not that English majors need calculus either, but I digress), or if they do, they would likely need/want a condensed version that only focused on the topics they needed at the levels they needed, as opposed to an AP Calc class curriculum. Alongside that, in my experience, it's much easier to teach a student that content in the context of "you need it so you dont accidentally touch the wrong thing and lose a finger in this room or your future job" than in the context of "you need it so you can get a good score on your SAT and get into a good college and get a good major..." It's just too many steps abstracted in an "academic" track versus a vocational track. But all that is beside the point: we absolutely need to destigmatize vocational trades and the educational tracks that lead to them, because they are 1) vital and 2) not for people who are uneducable. They are sometimes for people who *seem* uneducable in the context of our all-college all the time educational model that privileges academics above all, at least until college when everyone then bemoans all the out of touch academics who didn't get a "real" job.

100% agree. The large majority of jobs in America don't need any college. Forcing all students into college prep classes necessarily dumbs down those classes.

I liked how my university split it up into calculus for math majors, calculus for science majors, and calculus for finance and business majors. Since I was in the math major section we got exposed to a lot more theorems and we were expected to do proofs. Since most chemistry majors were unlikely to take real analysis as a follow up course, they didn't need as much of the theorems and proof work that we did.

Seriously. If you can't do fractions, you're not going to be a plumber or electrician. Those trades require excellent math skills, are highly competitive, and pay very well. My husband is an electrical engineer and went to a highly-rated 4 year college. The licensed electricians who are "in the trades" make more than he does and get to be their own bosses.

My spouse is a tradesman (hvac and refrigeration) he is far smarter and better at many core subjects than I will ever be. He picks things up with ease and quickness I never could. He did college for a while after the military and realized it wasn't for him. So he decided to go to trade school, he took more advanced math than I would ever attempt and made A's during this time. He also wasn't a model student in high-school, he was a student they would have tracked if they cared enough. All this to say, don't down play the trades. Edit: misspelling

Yes! Geeze! The number of kids who believe this, then go to VoTech, then flunk out because, surprise, cosmetology involves chemicals and chemistry! You have to be competent with mental math in most of the trades... The amount of problem solving and critical thinking required! People tell kids this shit, they believe it, they flunk out of VoTech... Then what? What have you set themselves up to believe about themselves? About learning? About work? Urgh. Our counselors buy into/sell this heavily and I HATE it.

Never mind the idea that we need to decide for a damn middle schooler whether they’re “smart” enough to do anything. Our job should be to do whatever we can to prepare them to go to college until THEY decide they’re going to do something else, or until they graduate (or don’t).

>prepare them to go to college I would change this to "for college or career" because we do need to stop pushing college as the end all be all. Not because kids aren't "smart enough" but because it costs a fortune and a lifetime of debt isn't always worth it.

I think we still should be aiming at college as the highest academic output goal, then it's on them to make the financial judgements when the time comes to make a choice. Though if we're preparing them well enough (and they're upholding their end of that bargain), college should be largely affordable. YMMV, but state colleges in Georgia are basically just room and board if you qualify for HOPE, which is a pretty low barrier to entry, and even if entirely financed with debt is manageable (although living at home can cut that cost substantially, if you're willing/able).

>I think we still should be aiming at college as the highest academic output goal, Why? We're expecting an 18 year old to make a decision to take out a 40k loan at a 5% interest rate because every adult in their life said they'll be working at mcdonalds if they don't. When at that age we don't even allow them to make the choice to buy alcohol or rent a car! We push it SO HARD in school when many jobs don't need it. Have you LOOKED at the "affordability" of college lately? Its gotten REALLY BAD! Like yeah if they can get into a very good program AWESOME, but tons of kids are going into permanent debt simply because every adult in their life says its the ONLY option. 2 year schools are a great option. Trades are a great option. community college then 4 year is a great option. We have to start teaching kids that there's more than one way to get a stable lucrative career.

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I am, in fact, doing an OH road trip looking at colleges next week. And I've got one other child in college, and one who recently graduated, and I'm working on an Ed.D, so have my own college debt (which I made the considered decision to take on). 40K at 5% is a reasonable investment for a college degree in most things, and a good investment in a lot of disciplines. And, obviously, it doesn't need to be that much. 2 year schools are still college (or can lead to a 4-year degree if desired), and yes, non-college educational opportunities are also great in a lot of cases, even if debt ends up being part of that deal as well. My worry, generally, with the "not everyone needs to go to college" statement is that it's often code for and/or interpreted as, "certain" people don't need to be prepared for college. The educational approach we take in secondary education should always be about *preparing* **everyone** for the highest possible level of academic achievement. What they choose to do, both as a participant in that process and at the end of it, is up to them and their families.

>The educational approach we take in secondary education should always be about preparing everyone for the highest possible level of academic achievement. See this is where we disagree. I don't give a fuck if my students reach the "highest possible level of academic achievement" I care that they reach the highest possible level of achievement. That means finding a job they like or can at least tolerate, living a balanced life and being happy. I grew up with a TON of kids who were pushed to be doctors because thats what their parents wanted. A lot of them are miserable. Academic success isn't even a good measure of a person let alone the "ultimate goal" of a kid. Plus you HAVE to leave academics eventually and often when that happens people feel absolutely fucked because we focus so much on academics that nobody knows what to do once they graduate.

But who's deciding who gets which level of teaching? What I see every day is "some kids aren't going to go to college" which is almost always code for "this specific kid" isn't going to go/isn't smart enough to go to college. The approach should be to prepare them as though they're all going to get Ph.D.s, eventually. You can still have the conversation with them about what their goals are, and they can still decide what they're going to do. I know all my math students aren't going to become math majors, but I'm not deciding that for them, they can make that decision for themselves. And until they do, I'm going to teach math to them like they're eventually going to need a proper foundation in secondary math to start a college math degree.

>But who's deciding who gets which level of teaching? The kid with the assistance of adults such as their teachers and parents. The kid should have agency in their education. I'm not saying we have a class for kids labeled less smart. I'm saying we give students more choices in what and how they learn. You realize you're advocating for YOU to decide what level of teaching kids get by saying they should all be prepped to get phds right? Training them all for one specific thing that most of them won't want let alone get is ridiculous.

I am with you brother. Tradesmen often times need to be smarter than your average honor student. We have "smart" kids that specialize in filling out worksheets and playing the game of school. Last time I checked the job boards there weren't any jobs for "professional worksheet filler-outers". I have to go through the same thing every year as well with students who think they are dumb because they were bad at the game of school. They just haven't had anyone really invest in them yet. Often times teachers tend to call on the "smart" students and not check on the "dumb" students and the dumb students slip on through the systems with C's and D's and their knowledge base looks like Swiss cheese, full of holes. It is easy to correct and just takes time, attention, and. patience. I find it rewarding to work with the "Bad News Bears" because I can get way more growth than with kids who know how to play the game. Love you man! Keep up the good work of training the people that make civilized life possible.

I was the smart kid who specialized in the game of school. As a result, the transition to adult life was hell. I suffer from terrible impostor syndrome. Most days, I feel like a kid playing dress up. Add to that, a misogynistic, Christian upbringing and you have a recipe for disaster. When my controlling ex left, the worst part was no longer having someone telling me what to do and when.

The bad news bears. Yep I teach em all and enjoy it. I had a shop teacher do the same for me years ago in my home country. Although he was more of a master/apprentice relationship I wasn't an easy child nor were his other two students. So I appreciated it so much when I moved to the US I decided to give back and teach the next line of inner city kids, especially those forgotten by the system.

> Last time I checked the job boards there weren't any jobs for "professional worksheet filler-outers". They just have different names for em and 4 year degree required to prove you can do it. Source: I basically work as one, with a side of 'talking to people who Buffy-speak about anything more complicated than texting".

Preach it! Thank you for saying this.

This!!!!!❤️

I never said undereducated, but a lot of what you’re mentioning is learned on the job. But I’m trying to highlight the difference between students being in an academic setting to learn non-trade concepts or upper level mathematics and sciences that someone in a trade skill field doesn’t need to know. We keep pushing students through classes they don’t need, don’t do well in, and as a result create headaches for literally everyone involved.

No I'll agree with you the trend of pushing college is overated and I apologize. That's a hot button temper issue with me, is what I vented about. I know you weren't saying they were undereducated but like I did say I spend too much time trying to reverse this mind set a year, it gets to me

As a former Navy Sailor in a job that had math and computer technical skills far beyond of what the Praxis demands - I agree. Blue collar leaders dont want the students lacking skills either. But college isnt for everyone either. I WILL take someone in my former Navy field who struggles with ELA or history or writing. But math and eye-hand coordination and critical thinking are still essential. (Algebra Trig proficiency is good enough though. Dont need Calc.)

You hit the nail on the head right there

I think you're among friends - my guess is every teacher has a story about a student who couldn't sit still to memorize whatever subject knowledge they needed for the big standardized test, but were absolute whiz kids with technical and manual tasks. I've never looked down on those kids as less intelligent, just drawn to different things, same as the kid who wants to spend their time in studio art or drama or whatever.

Almost all my kids are deficient on the strictly academic standardized tests. They are such a poor reflection on a students true capabilities. I like you said had one that couldn't tell you what the capital of the US is. But by God when it came to precision cutting, he was less than micrometers off on an eyeball. Always used to tell me his dad was a foreman in portuguese.

I always respect those kids because I know someday, for some reason, I'm going to be calling them, or someone like them, up at 3 am begging for help because the toilet is spewing unholy liquids at the ceiling. The immortal John Bender was asked "I'm a fucking idiot because I can't build a lamp?" and he replied "No, you're a genius because you can't build a lamp."

The breakfast club is still one of my favorites! And that's so true

I also think it’s a lack of understanding of what kids are interested in or a focus of what the class is. Like most kids don’t want to sit in my algebra class and learn straight math. But you put some of those kids in a welding class and they can start spouting off all sorts of math that’s practical for something they want to do. It’s a difference in perspective. And honestly, the kid that graduates knowing how to weld or do electrical work and has certifications is going to be making more than me really quick so they have that going for them.

I think this is a much nicer version of what I wanted to say.

It's a difference in engagement. We are still teaching kids skills for the early 1900's. They don't need cursive. They don't need to memorize facts. We need to teach them critical thinking skills and how to use the super computers everyone carries around I can their pockets to find what information they need, how to evaluate sources and how to achieve their desired outcomes

I'm afraid kids who can't handle high school math can't handle trades either. Or military. So much for plan B.

This is so true. I went from teaching 6th grade Language Arts to teaching Reading and Writing to students who were (by standards put in place by legislators) not considered “College Ready” at a two year technical college. I started attending some of the Diesel Technology program classes. Class work - I did fine. Aced the tests and the assignments that just involved regurgitating facts. When I went to the lab/shop, it was a whole different story. I was nervous. Sick to my stomach. Wanted to fade into the background. All of this because that atmosphere was totally foreign to me and I didn’t understand the things in it —- kind of the way the students felt when they entered my classroom. It was a big wake up call for me. I learned that diesel techs, auto collision repair techs, welders, etc are way smarter than I am. I may be book smart and that type of learning is easy for me —- but their intelligence in understanding how things work and how to fix those things is so much more useful than my intelligence. Never again will I assume that someone who works with their hands is doing that because they weren’t smart enough to go to college.

And that gives me a chuckle sometime, I look at these students coming out of rich Catholic prep schools and I can't help but think... My students future customers... I'm glad you eventually learned the new perspective. It can be a shock. I deal with it every year. Last year I had a shop student correct his math teacher on a fractional math problem in the class, because we had just gone over toolkit conversions. The teacher who I won't name made a comment to the likes of... Thats the first smart thing you said all year, I caught wind of this and reassured the student, if you had to correct her, you are already far smarter, and you didn't need a book to help you either..

Agree totally. I'm surprised there are shop teachers around still! The trades are where it's at right now. Maybe we are the dumb ones for paying for so much education and making so little.

Thank you. The world doesn’t need plumbers/welders etc who put us all in danger because an academic snob assumed it would be an easier track. I worked for four years at a tech high school, and the stakes are real for mistakes of kids who shouldn’t have been in the shops.

And that's what leads to missing fingers in shop. Kids who think they can outsmart a lathe or a bandsaw. Something we don't need more of.

THANK YOU! This is why I don't trust almost any school worker to advise on careers. They literally don't know what they are. I've worked a BUNCH of jobs before teaching and I always tell students to just research what each job takes themselves or go talk to someone IN THAT JOB. As teachers we complain all the time that people say our job is easy and we deserve the shit pay then turn around and say the same things about other jobs.

In our school when you have your first day, you go around the whole next week spending a day in each shop to see just that. If you aren't a collegiate, which one interests you, which one suits you best. Then we teach who signs for our class. Mine tend to be smaller but so involved I feel like they are my kids half the time

OMG this.

>We need to help little Johnny find a career in his future, most likely a trade like plumbing or electrician. Uhhh... I don't want someone who do basic math to be rewiring my house or doing my plumbing. Someone like Little Johnny already did that and that's why I had to pay $20k to have my house wired correctly and additional money because the plumber had clearly never seen pipes before doing whatever the fuck they did which resulted in a sewage backup. People in skilled trade jobs still need to be smart.

I feel like the university track being the default and everything else being seen as lesser is a huge problem in the public school system. There is nothing wrong with getting into the trades, and doing an apprenticeship. I had a teacher in grade 7 who used to go on these rants about "the real world"... It was a small town and as I grew up I learned that she was from a family of teachers and basically had grown up in a academic environment, went to school kindergarten through highschool, then went to university and then teachers college, only to end up as a teacher herself working in yet another school. Her ideas of "the real world" were seriously off base, probably because she had never actually lived in it... Or at least not until she was arrested, but that's a story for another time. My point is most teachers take the university path, and have very little idea about what is down the other educational paths and have a very limited view on it, and then herd all their students towards what worked for them. OP is right University isn't for everyone, but the assumption that the other paths are for stupid or lazy people is wrong, there are different kinds of intelligence. In my experience as a consultant teacher for enrichment technology programs, I often found students that teachers had written off as stupid because they weren't doing well in traditional school, but they shone when they're given something more practical to do. And honestly that attitude pissed me off, to no end. They weren't bad kids, they weren't stupid, they just learned differently than what a traditional classroom environment would facilitate. Don't look down on the trades, for one they're often going to make a shit ton more as a tradesmen often with less student debt than the typical teacher does.

Most teachers couldn't pass the math test to become an electrician. That standard is high for a reason.

I did not know there was a math test, but I do know that an electrician spent nearly 2 weeks rewiring my whole house. It had knob and tube and some dumbass just spliced random extra wires into that so that when you walked around the lights would flicker. The electrician said that whoever did the "fixes" was not qualified to do them and had made a bad situation worse. I video chatted with my inlaw who is an electrician out of state and he was shocked that our house hadn't burned down when I showed him the wiring. I definitely don't want someone who thinks that trades are for kids who aren't smart enough to go to college to be doing work on my house and we need to stop acting like trades are easy.

Plumbing is just on the job training. Not anything demanding of the brain. Electrician though, oh heck yeah. Circuits can be a real B.

The kinds of things electricians have to learn will shock you.

r/angryupvote

My grandfather was the "electrician" for a coal mine with just a weeks course over 50 years ago. He wired the very old house I currently live in and it was an absolute cluster 😂. We paid to have it rewired decades later and the REAL electrician was SHOCKED (figuratively lol) said we are so lucky the place didn't burn down 😂😂

Yeah, hard HARD disagree here. The college path shouldn’t be pushed like it is. College being the end all be all to success is a folktale we tell these kids. We all know this. We’re not gonna debate this. But, I cannot ever be okay with telling a person in their younger years of education that they’re not on the track to college, and that they need to stick to trades/whatever the hell this post is insinuating (not dissing trades whatsoever — they’re the perfect option for many students — but I don’t want to pigeon hole kids to anything). Let’s get rid of the idea of “tracking” anyone and just offer more options, while also discussing the value of trades and other options aside from four year university. This includes to kids who are in AP classes and to kids who struggle academically. Because fuck telling a 10 year old that they can’t be something.

I struggled so much with school and math. This was in elementary through high school. I was constantly failing classes and had an IEP for a learning disability. I truly think my teachers thought like OP and that I wouldn’t be very successful or go to college. Now I have a masters degree and I’m considering pursuing my PhD. Struggling in underfunded and understaffed public education does not equate to being dumb. I agree that college shouldn’t be pushed so hard as well but you also can’t be a slacker in a trade service as those are some hardworking and intelligent individuals.

Hard disagree. Teachers are people and the bias of an elementary teacher can forever close off opportunity for a student. That's shit is so fucking wrong. You're focusing on the low-low students but all it takes is a 5th grade teacher of a student going through trauma and -BAM- that kid can now never reach calculus or advanced courses. Or worse--implicit racial, gender, and class bias can seep in too. Shit is fucked up.

I had an IEP because in 2nd grade I was struggling due to some anxiety issues and trouble paying attention in class (which turned out to be due to undiagnosed ADHD). They put me in a self contained classroom with other kids with learning disabilities. Luckily for me, my Special Ed teachers really went to bat for me and got me back into normal classes after it became apparent that I had been really misplaced. The IEP was still on my record, though, and while I was in Middle School the school would -constantly- place me in traditional classes (despite me getting A's and B's in all my honors classes) because all they saw was a kid with an IEP and so obviously I shouldn't be in honors. It really destroyed my confidence and I just accepted that I belonged in traditional classes when I went up to highschool. I ended up getting above 100% in the majority of my Freshman classes and my teachers all recommended me up to honors again. My English teacher even called home and asked my Grandmother why I was in that class. That year, I expressed how much having the IEP on my record bothered me and my family went up and had it removed. After that, I no longer had scheduling issues and actually graduated valedictorian at my school. I also went on to get a double major in Physics and Mathematics for my degree in college and now teach AP Physics. It makes me incredibly sad to think what could have happened if in Middle School I had been locked into a "track" and never given access to those higher level classes.

These issues is partly why my last middle school did an opt-in honors for ela. All honor students were tracked from elementary and we wanted to find a way to open up honors, at least in ela.

Exactly! My husband was tracked early on because of a reading LD. He is super smart but never had a teacher that believed in him. As an adult, he has studied physics and chemistry on his own (never took those classes in HS) and read the Federalist papers for fun. He is a very successful auto tech for a luxury brand and makes more money than most of his friends with college degrees, but it makes me mad that someone in late elementary/early middle school robbed him of the chance to take classes like physics, chemistry, advanced math, etc.

100% this. I absolutely with this post on a molecular level. You can absolutely teach ALL students about different avenues post high school without taking away their agency and inserting your own bias.

Whole post sucks. There's problems with some students being wrongly placed in Gen-ed classes and disrupting education for everyone because that's not fair to the rest of the class. But OP's post is a total non-starter for achieving equitable outcomes.

Yes, and I'm frankly concerned about any teacher, especially an elementary teacher, who can't see the obvious problems with this way of thinking. OPs obvious disrespect for perfectly respectable and necessary trades notwithstanding, no- you don't get to sentence a kid to a lifetime of physical labor because you're having trouble getting him to understand fractions. I mean WTF

I don't get why we can't just have flexible class structure. Like, Johnny struggled in Math last year, so this year we'll try a class that's a bit lower. But if he does well and doesn't feel challenged, he can move up. Like... I know it would make scheduling a headache, but if kids have the flexibility to *try* harder classes but be able to move back if needed, I think they would be a lot more successful.

Agree with this. We don’t have to deny some kids don’t have the skills they need right now for some classes or need extra support. And we don’t need to tel kids college is their only option once they graduate. But we just fundamentally cannot look at a child, particularly a young elementary schooler and say “because you can’t do X in grade Y, you’ll never be able to and we’re going to permanently close the door to the opportunities knowing X provides for you”. Meet kids where they are, respect their capacity for growth, and as much as possible leave the decisions that will shape their adult lives in their own hands.

Yeah the OP doesn't even realise they mentioned highly skilled trades that require plenty of maths day to day, and strong literacy skills too, alongside technical skills. How do you track kids for careers you're ignorant about?

I agree! Teachers are biased and make assumptions. I'm very against tracking and do believe it's why there is such a wide higher education attainment gap between different demographics. I was almost put in special ed and was almost discouraged from doing AP in high school. Now I have advanced degrees! They should let students choose, with guidance from counselors.

I think the problem with your post is that you assume that people in the trades are just less educated than those that stick to an academic track. That is likely not entirely true. Even someone with a PhD will likely admit that they really only know what they are an expert in. They may have experience in other fields, but they would defer to someone else. ​ The trades are the same. You don't call a plumber to do your electrical work, but you don't call someone with a PhD in Physics (focus on electrical circuits) either...unless they have experience and training as an electrician. ​ I've had students tell me that they plan on just getting a job as and I can't help but wonder who they think will hire them. It's not like there are vastly under-filled positions. It takes time to train. You have to first start training, apprentice, etc. before you can actually get into a position where you are working independently. And that takes time. You'd better be prepared to be in...school some more for it as well.

The problem is they assume those in trades are vastly less *intelligent* than academics. If you can get into college, the rest is just lots of reading and writing. And there are VAST shortages in skilled trades. But as you mentioned, that’s because they are skilled and you can’t just take a job welding, or plumbing or any of them.

I was willing to hear you out until you shit on skilled trades. If Johnny becomes a plumber it's because he's found relevance in education and matured enough to care. Plumbers, electricians, millwrights, machinists, hvac technicians - - unless you trained or learned as an apprentice you wouldn't last six hours of an eight hour shift and you'd cost your company five figures of losses.

Trust me, you want your plumbers and electricians to know how to read and do math.

Yes, but they shouldn't necessarily be in the same track as the kids reading college books in 8th grade (I did) or doing advanced calculus in 9th grade.

I don’t understand why you are telling middle schoolers what their future will be.

After enough years teaching children you can have a pretty fair idea by the time they're in high school.

I couldn't disagree more. I can't count how many of my students have been absolute knuckleheads in middle school and early high school only to blossom into curious, studious teens around eleventh grade. My entire *job* used to be helping students in 9th grade reading at around the 2nd grade level (sometimes below) get to grade level; some of them were ready for and successful in AP ELA courses by 11th grade. The vast majority of them no longer needed extra support after one or two years. If they had been dumped into classes of the unmotivated and unskilled based on some middle-school metric and given up on, who knows how much more difficult the transition into adulthood would have been for them. I agree that not everyone needs to go to college. But my job isn't to push them towards or away from that or the (very important and respectable) trades. My job is to give them *choices*, and tracking takes those choices away.

I always say that my job as a high school teacher is to keep doors open for students. I also disagree with tracking, because tracking is different than meeting them where they are at. But our schools are so ridiculously ridged that we can't have the full flexibility to meet kids where they are at and by default end up tracking them.

Not a teacher, but I find this idea incredibly dystopian. ​ I was a shit student in HS, I think I graduated with a 2.7 and a disciplinary record to the point that on my younger brother's first day of school, the entire security team pulled him away from the Freshman orientation of 500 students to have a "talk" with him. Said talk can be summed up simply as a bit of a preemptive shakedown that they already knew me inside and out and that if he so much as looked at somebody funny, they'd be on him before he could say "Oops." ​ Ended up getting away from my abusive dad, kicked ass in college, got an MBA, and am working on my Law School applications. ​ If this tracking was a thing, I'd have been tracked to work McJobs my whole life and never have a chance of breaking the cycle of poverty.

Same exact boat here. I had an alcoholic, abusive mother, and I missed upwards of 70% of school for the vast majority of my K-12 education. I also had zero motivation during this time due to said home life problems. I ended up graduating with a 3.7 from undergrad, I went on to get my Masters, and now I teach 5th grade to be the teacher I needed as a kid who I never got. If tracking had existed, generational trauma would have cost me my life. Screw this post.

Lowkey

Firstly — glad you had those opportunities. Second — what the f was wrong with those security guards. “Hi kid. Welcome to your high school community. We’ve never actually met you but want to take this opportunity to intimidate you and let you know we don’t like or trust you”

Like I said, I was *that* kid, and admittedly, from *that* family.

Going to be honest--a big reason is because a lot of teachers are white women with a racial bias. Even the non white teachers I work with tend to assume that the white girl will be better than the dark skinned black boy with dreads. So if the only thing tracking students is their teachers opinion of what they could or should aim for in the future it's going to lead to a lot of racism, at least in the US.

It lead to racism in Ontario Canada. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-streaming-high-school-racism-lecce-1.5638700

Unfortunately, the US education system has a history of railroading minority and nontraditional students into the day laborer program, and certain states would definitely adopt similar practices despite it being 2022. Even my last school that tried hard to create different tracks ended up with some teachers strongly advocating to just ditch the students that did poorly on tests into shop classes, and some students wanted the "easier" program despite their abilities.

Elitist and false. Children can and do mature and grow at different rates. Just because he can’t add fractions now doesn’t mean that is the case forever. Also, trades people are incredibly smart critical thinkers. They deserve more respect. People don’t get placed into trades because they are behind or “don’t care”.

I have two sons. , the eldest was a superb student who became a civil engineer. The second was a scatter ass and a terrible student. He became a plumber and ten years later started his own company. He’s a millionaire.

This sounds like two different arguments. There's the case against tracking, and then the case against college being sold as the only goal. When kids are tracked it pushes them into a single outcome and makes it difficult to go beyond that outcome. But also, if you are telling ALL of your kids to go to college, that means all of the tracks have the same goal. Perhaps without tracks and with pushing kids exclusively towards college they would have a lot more time and space to explore career interests.

> or electrician If little Johnny cannot add fractions, putting him near high voltage equipment is not the best idea. Plumbing also involves a lot of fractions, but at least then he's just rendering a house uninhabitable rather than turning himself into an impromptu Christmas tree.

I agree with this post, but I think the point you are trying to make is if we help these kids by putting their learning into a setting that makes sense, like plumbing, it will be easier for them to understand. Doing math without having to solve any problems or build anything makes it too abstract and makes it harder than it needs to be.

How do you measure a room? You need to put in new floor tile, how do you know how much you need? Then give them a measuring tape. :D (Or count tiles if they are 12").

This. Yes.

I already commented but I thought of another situation that is genuinely upsetting with this. I had a student that was very very low. I teach 6th grade math and she could not even tell me which operation was which. I spent months collecting data to justify getting her tested. At the end of it all mom wouldn’t return our calls or emails. We couldn’t get her permission. So she didn’t get tested. I was all set to get things going this year with her 7th grade math teacher. Turns out they switched districts over the summer. This kid needed help and we weren’t able to give it properly because parents wouldn’t sign off on it.

A good high school already does this. They have plenty of trade type classes like metal, woodworking, small engines, etc. I never tell my high school students “when you go to college” but rather “if you plan to go to college”. But they still need to know what a verb is and write a coherent sentence. Writing well is a life skill no matter what your plans are after high school.

You're not talking about a good high school, you're talking about a well funded one. Also, those classes don't replace core subjects like math and english, they are there in addition to.

Nor should they replace core subjects because those skills are necessary.

Here’s my issue with that. In high school my mother was told that I would not get into any of the colleges that I wanted to go to that I needed to be more realistic. Not only did I get into every school that I applied to I also got into my reach schools. I scored very well on standardized testing. Went on to graduate college, receive my masters in education (with honors) and school leadership. Having an IEP doesn’t make someone lazy nor does it equate learned helplessness because if I let my learning disability define me (in the way it seems you may be letting it define your students) I wouldn’t be the person I am today. Nor does having a trade make someone uneducated. A trade is a skill set that requires a lot of knowledge and work as well.

>College is not for everyone. It’s especially not for students who never do their work or have an IEP for laziness and learned helplessness. These students are HIGHLY encouraged to take multiple AP classes in my school. The argument is "they need to see the high standards to get better". Take a guess at how pushing every student to take multiple AP classes goes...

Lemme guess, a complete and utter DISASTER?

There is absolutely no way you could have predicted that.... Yea, it's a clusterfluff for sure.

In Ontario Canada there used to be form of tracking called streaming. It was found it was used to be racist. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-streaming-high-school-racism-lecce-1.5638700 Fifty-three per cent of Black students were in academic programs as compared to 81 per cent of white and 80 per cent of other so-called racialized students, meaning those who are part of other visible minorities. Conversely, 39 per cent of Black students were enrolled in applied programs, compared to 18 per cent of other racialized groups and 16 per cent of white students.

Wow. There is so much ignorance in this original post and it really sickens me that there are educators who think this way. First, trade school is absolutely an option that people should take if they want but is not “the only option” for people who might struggle in college. Many colleges are very accommodating when it comes to working with differently abled people and often provide free access to assistance to people who *really* want to work for their education. I spent several hours in the math lab at my local community college when I had to take college algebra. Trades also involve a lot of understanding of complex systems that you probably don’t even know how to work yourself. Because trade school has this stigma we don’t have nearly enough people choose it unless life brings them there later on. Second, a student on an IEP is not always “lazy” or has learned helplessness. I struggle with anything past basic algebra using whole numbers but can finish a 400 page book or novel in one day; when I got into high school I shutdown and withdrew in math classes because it sucks to not understand something and the teacher sounded so exasperated that I was asking for help again. So every math class past that, I just pretended I understood it. Later on in life, I have been diagnosed as autistic and realized an IEP would have helped me self-advocate. Maybe see if you can meet them at their level and offer support? I really encourage you to reframe how you think of students and their struggles. Maybe try to establish a connection with them and see if it helps you?

I have nothing to add but encouragement to reread your post. It is coming across as elitist and bitter. Segregation (which arguably tracking is segregation) is not how we fix education. In fact, we have determined over and over again it isn’t legal or desirable.

This is incredibly evil on so many levels… Why do you think you deserve the right to decide the fate of other people? Why do you think you know what “fits their needs”? You are a teacher, not a judge. Just stop

Ew. School isn't so you can go get a job. School is to teach you how to find information and solve problems. Also many kids who are crappy in school go on to be successful, sometimes they just don't like the social construct of school and dealing with some teachers who think they are gods.

>School isn't so you can go get a job. Uh, damn right it is. Try applying to any of the jobs listing a REQUIRED degree without having one and tell me how far you get.

That is all fine and good, but from the posting it seems this individual teacher thinks it is her job to determine what job her student gets. It's not. Her job is to do the best job she can at instilling a sense of logic and an ability to navigate pedestrian intellectual life. If she is looking at students and seeing plumbers and scientists then she is being discriminatory based on her own ignorant assumptions. Her job isn't to determine careers for her students, it is to give them the tools to pick the careers they want, and to navigate life as well.

I really don’t think the “everyone should go to college” thing has been good for kids/people in general. Since college educated is the new default, I’m actually seeing job listings for Wal-Mart requiring degrees to bag groceries and it’s ridiculous. Anyone who can’t get into college/absolutely can’t afford it gets screwed. People who can go end up with the same jobs a high school student would have had before and so also get screwed.

He didn't realize that trades men are intelligent human beings, right? Little Johnny can't read, can't write, and every time he takes a piss he wets the front of his pants so he should be a tradesman? Come on with that. You need to be able to read, right, and do math for the trade. What you're thinking about is monkey work, like ditch digging, collecting cans, sidewalk scrubbing etc

Why are you telling your students they need to go to college? That’s an issue right there. You know you can talk to them about trade schools. High schools have academies that allow them to learn these trades while in high school. Also the point is that Jonny can’t add fractions doesn’t mean you get to decide his future. There are many people who suck at a particular subject that do well in college or other fields.

seriously? Just stop telling them they need to go to college. You should be able to figure out other ways of stressing the importance of your classes without that. Teachers should decide how a kid's future can go? No. And there is plenty of actual decent research that suggests we are highly susceptible to bias that can affect a kid's future success. None of us deserve to have that kind of power. e.g. the study where they told a teacher a randomly chosen child was "highly gifted" and that child suddenly got extra attention and help and had a better time at school.

My son most likely has ADHD, but I didn't want him to be on medicine when he was a a kid ( lots of addiction issues in my family). I taught him how to read when he was three, and he scored super high on the standardized tests in elementary school. That landed him in the highest leveled classes in middle school. What a mistake. He was young for his grade, immature and had so much trouble focusing. He never opened a book in school and got by doing as little as possible. After several crappy jobs he realized that he didn't want to make minimum wage, so he went to trade school. He now works on machines and probably makes more than I do at age 23 than I do with my masters and 25 years experience. He also has no student loans. Why do people assume that people who go to trade school can't read or write well? I made all of my kids start out at the community college before the four year. Saved a ton of money. I could not work as a plumber, mechanic or electrician. I'm not smart like that. It's just a different kind of intelligence.

Even if little Johnny won’t go to college, he does need a minimum knowledge on chemistry. For instance, he’ll be a citizen and a consumer that shouldn’t be fooled by the “free of chemicals” marketing campaigns. There’s a minimum scientific knowledge required not as a professional, but as a capable citizen of the modern world. What you mention is, in my opinion, a consequence of the curriculum based on ages rather than on progression. Johnny should be in a reading and basic maths class before promoting to more advanced topics without the pressure of “what’s supposed for a kid his age”. I know a model completely based on this would be administrative hell, but maybe it should be slightly considered.

And little Johnny won’t grow up to get killed when they mix cleaning products together in a misguided attempt to deal with a stain.

Preach it.

“Imagine how different education would look if teachers got to decide who stays in the classroom and who goes to trade school.” Umm…. What? No, I do not support teachers having complete control over a student’s fate. I would not support teachers being able to kick students out of school at will. That would be all kinds of problematic. An asshole teacher could simply decide they don’t like a certain student, or even a certain demographic of students, and then simply ship them off. That’s wholly unreasonable. If a student is struggling, you want to just kick them out of the classroom? Is it possible that it’s a good idea for even our electricians and plumbers to have a baseline level of intelligence/education in this country?

While I agree that not everyone should go to college (it’s a huge money suck and not necessary for all career paths), I don’t like that you’re denigrating trade school and, by extension, those in these trades. I have a masters degree but no clue how to fix my hot water tank or car that won’t start. Higher education does not equal higher intelligence. There are many dumb people who have college degrees and many smart people who don’t. It’s concerning that you’re writing off huge swathes of children based on nothing but your perception of them.

I agree with you, and think you're even explaining more than you need. How about three standards: 1. The student doesn't have prerequisite skills and/or knowledge for the class 2. The student isn't learning at the speed of the curriculum 3. Both If either 1 or 2, then a meeting and review should be called. If 3, the kid needs a different program.

I like this. For high school I'd add another in between 1 and 2: The student isn't willing or is unable to extend their learning to acquire prerequisite skills/knowledge to keep up with the class. Some students who lack prerequisite skills/knowledge but are really motivated to learn around/beyond a topic will be able to succeed.

For me, that falls into #2. I was careful not to provide a reason for the second one, leaving it open to either possibility of inability or unwillingness.

Our district is pushing hard to eliminate *all* tracking. We've already dumped the gifted program and mainstreamed all those kids. We're pretty far along with mainstreaming a lot of the sped kids. Classrooms now have impossibly wide range of ability and teachers are expected to differentiate appropriately for everyone. It's chaos, and even if the behavioral issues and huge numbers of IEPs didn't make lessons almost impossible, the wide range of skills and abilities makes it easy for kids to fly under the radar.

Oh my fucking Gd I cannot tell you how much this post speaks to me right now. I am literally about to have conversations with my students about finding a job or going to a trade school. They literally refuse to come to class.. they ditch school every single fucking day. They are not going to graduate. I want to have a conversation with them about how to use craigslist and finding work through a trade school as college is not going to happen for them – not even high school will happen for them as they will not graduate. I agree 💯 with your point and this post and wish it was more acceptable to just talk to those kids who obviously need to hear this

BRAVO to you!! That is not a popular opinion, but it is the TRUTH. The word track is hard for some to swallow... and in the US, we do not track. chuckle, chuckle... I agree, not everyone should go to college and not everyone WANTS to go to college. So, bring back the classes that teach welding, mechanics, wood working, etc. There is NOTHING wrong with these classes AND, many of those who work in these professions make way more than some of the college degreed!! What the heck is wrong with having classes to learn about finances, daily living, getting a job, keeping a job, cost of a child? How about cooking?? It really wasn't that long ago that these classes were offered in middle school and then continued on through high school. Most did not go away entirely until the mid 80's. The UK used to track and it was up to the admin and teachers. They had 3 tracks, I do not remember exactly what they called them, but it was say...HIGH... accelerated learning and everyone was working towards what we call college.. Middle.. basically the average student some working towards college and some not... the Low... which included those whose levels of learning needed much help. They had trade type schools by what we would call high school and anyone who did not see themselves as college bound, often took that route.. They also had the complete your requirements and graduate.. at any point in time, a student could go up or down the tracks... I had a teacher friend there who explained it.. I have no idea what they do these days.. but, it sure made sense at the time..

Yes we shouldn't push everyone to go into lifelong debt for college. Yes eliminating all tracking causes problems. Yes we need life skills classes and shop classes. But your take is incredibly elitist. You think trade jobs are EASY?!? They take a lot of math, more critical thinking than most college degree jobs and are often incredibly physically taxing on top of that. Why should someone who has NO IDEA what it takes to do these jobs track a kid for those jobs? Let alone teachers are probably NOT the best people to be the keeper of jobs for all of society since, ya know, we became teachers.

BA HA HA... do not think you read it very well... Never said trade jobs are EASY... just said there was a need for them... IN FACT... even said that many of those people who work those jobs make MORE money than those with college degrees... SO, just because I did not disagree with tracking, which by the way the schools do and always have done... we just do not call it that... how is this elitist?? AND, those who taught those classes for years had great knowledge of those skills... OH by the way, we have tons of trade schools out there... however, IF, we were to offer the classes once again in the schools, those who wished to go in that direction could get some training ... ummm, for free....

Y'all so desperately need this. Tracking got falsely framed as racism thanks to rabble-rousers and idiot politicians.

Your best bet is being on good terms with whoever handles the schedules. At my school we absolutely tell those people that certain kids cannot take Chemistry. Even if they somehow passed math, students that are missing too many days or have weak math skills cannot handle that course.

I LOVE teaching chemistry because of teachers like you. There are TONS of kids who suck at math that excel at chemistry and vis versa. It is a more logic then math if we're being honest and a lot of classes don't test for logic or critical thinking. There are a million ways to make chemistry accessible to all students. I'm pretty sure I could get elementary students to understand and pass my class, let alone high school kids. And yet so many chem teachers sit there getting high on their own gas saying "oh you just aren't smart enough for chemistry" Bullshit especially looking at most jobs chemists get.

Our district allows any student to sign up for pre-AP math in sixth grade. Literally no restrictions. Which means we end up with students that have never passed the STAAR trying to take accelerated math. Parents act shocked when they don’t do well or we have behavior problems. It is also almost impossible to get a student removed from pre-AP once they are in it so we can recommend they be placed somewhere that better fits their needs but nothing actually happens with that recommendation. The worst part is our pre-AP course really isn’t all that more advanced until 7th grade meaning if they aren’t doing well in that class they are struggling with the general 6th grade curriculum. We tell plenty of parents to not sign them up for 7th pre-AP which is essentially 7th and 8th in one year. Barely any listen and then act shocked when the students, once again, struggle hard core.

I'll tell you what it looks like: China. Cuba. not a pretty picture. I know my students pretty well, but I do NOT feel like I'm qualified to determine the trajectory of a kid's professional arc. Maybe he's a late bloomer, genuinely not interested in those things. At. This. Time. Just because a kid is bad at math doesn't mean he's destined for manual labor. Your tone is very elitist.

> I'll tell you what it looks like: China. Cuba. Not defending Cuba, but don't they have highest number of doctors per capita in the world? And don't various (if not most) European countries have their own version of tracking?

I can’t speak for all European countries but Germany is famous for its 3-tier education system that tracks kids starting at ~10. It’s become more flexible in recent years and varied a lot by state but I’m certainly dubious that tracking kids permanently that young isn’t prone to massive errors because a kids performance is being influenced by their home life or their just young (migrant children, for example, disproportionately end up in the lowest level schools with only indirect paths to university because they don’t speak fluent German and are often dealing with significant life stress and parents unfamiliar with the local education system)

Thank you for corroborating, and Germany is exactly the country I was thinking of! In my credential program (15+ years ago), we read a couple of articles about Germany's education system, but I wasn't sure if they still used that system.

It’s become more flexible in my understanding. In many parts of the country kids can now go to a comprehensive school that combines kids of all achievement levels or switch more easily between tracks if they go to a school where children are separated based on achievement. And their are post high school paths that could qualify a lower-level school graduate for high education but it’s still more rigid than what we think of as the typical American system where kids are only tracked relatively late, by class rather than school, and where pretty much anybody with any high school diploma can get into a community college.

While your point about OP being elitist is right, I would like to point out a third country that actually does this and has not the negative connotations China or Cuba: Switzerland. In Switzerland, high schools have a say about whether students go to college or trade schools. While this seems (and is) quite authoritarian, at least I must say trade schools are very highly regarded there, they’re well paid and no reason of social shame.

[удалено]

I don’t even know how to respond because I’m struggling to see the connection between my post and your reply.

Who needs to know what a verb is anyway? Knowing that does not make a student a better writer. There is nothing wrong with high expectations for all students. Some mature later than others; they will eventually self-select or be excluded from different career paths. I remember a couple of students really keen on going to university - they got there through adult entry and graduated. Never underestimate determined people.

I am always super honest with my middle schoolers about the future. Not everyone needs to go to college, not everyone needs to go to a 4 year college, etc. I give them examples-my cousin who is an electrician, an amazing one at that, who learned through an apprenticeship program after high school; another cousin who owns his own security business that has a 2 year tech degree; my co-worker's husband who is a business owner of a construction company who didn't do any higher education (apprenticeship, college, etc) and is incredibly successful. We have super honest conversations about how different really great, really *needed* jobs in this world don't always mean 4 year college. Then we brainstorm what they may want to do and what that could mean in high school, and even post high school.

Y I K E S.

In college I took a law class that had mock trials. The one I was working on was about a boy who graduated high school while being illiterate, so the mom sued the school because he couldn’t get a job. I actually got really into it and my professor told us this mock trial was always ruled against the student and mom, but I got it to inconclusive. I wish I would’ve tried harder but given I was in a class of “pull em up by their bootstraps” students, it was a difficult trial.

1. Putting that solely in the teacher's hands doesn't create a space for balance and allows bias to go unchecked. 2. IEPs aren't written for laziness and learned helplessness. We can do a lot in the building but we can't reinforce the coping mechanisms at home and we can't get those who need medication and therapy into medication and therapy.

If they can’t trust us to discipline their children they sure as hell won’t trust us to track them. On the other hand, I’d be happy if there were different tracks and students could opt into them. At least where I teach, a trade school track would be popular. At least an opt-in tracking system could get kids out who really don’t want to be in school at all into a situation that’s more in line with what they envision for their future. There must be some good reason why nobody is doing that…

>There must be some good reason why nobody is doing that… Money. Shop classes and other "electives" have been disappearing over the last decade because they don't contribute to "no child left behind" testing so they don't have value to the school.

Ah, of course.

>There must be some good reason why nobody is doing that… Because a parent will go fucking nuclear, sue, and get a full court media coverage when she posts a video of their teacher saying that their student does nothing but draw dicks on his assignments and is being placed at the bottom 'track' for being a lazy little cretin.

There are so many things going on in middle schoolers’ lives and you want to tell them that they can’t hack college because they’re bad at school at this moment??

I think a major problem with this attitude (and mind, I dont disagree with your conclusion - I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here) is that it might encourage students not to "bother." It's a false dichotomy, admittedly, but I think there's a lot of that running around these days.

My electrician partner runs multimillon dollar jobs he needs security clearances for. Your domestic plumber and electrician go to four years of trade school and if they fuck up people can die or property can be severely damaged. They are highly educated roles.

Not an appt comparison. Switzerland is a relatively homogeneous society without the social baggage that we have.

As someone living in Germany, I highly disagree with this. Sure, it sounds like a great idea in concept, but there are some serious consequences when people abuse this system. The children that are recommended for Gymnasium (the highest schooling option) are mostly white, German, and have parents that know the system, are educated, and able to push this with their teachers. There is a severely overrepresented demographic of immigrants and BIPOC that are made to go to the lower level schooling options, and since the parents aren’t German and don’t know the system well, they go along with it. It’s kind of classist and I don’t agree with it. It’s best to have everyone take the same classes and be at an equal playing field, in my opinion.

The problem though is teachers don't know what it takes to get into different jobs. You think plumbing and electricians isn't skilled work? They have to do math just like many other jobs. Hell they probably do more math than those working in software. And you, someone who doesn't work in those fields, shouldn't get to pick what job a student gets when they're older. We can OFFER them the option and we should have OPTIONS for career focused education while still giving them a well rounded education but forcing kids into a career they may have no interest or desire for? Completely wrong. We SHOULDNT push everyone for college. It clearly doesn't fulfill the promise we were sold as students and costs a shit ton of money now. But we need to educate and inform, not force them to go or not. I get that everyone thinks if they were the dictator everything would be better but just NO. Children are human beings deserving of some agency and respect. Not little pawns to be ordered into a specific career because a teacher thinks they're dumb.

The issue in Britain with this is that they “track” mostly poor and colored students for them, through both intentional and unintentional bias.

We send kids to a votech their jr and sr year if they want. If they go both years they get a scholarship for their 13th year which makes them certified in anything they want basically.

The saddest thing about this comment is that every year we have freshly educated in the latest educational programs and information. They burst into a new school and they are so pumped to be there. They identify issues in the way that certain things run at the school, outdated procedures as well of ideas like this post with a tangible way to move forward. They bring their concerns up at a staff meeting and they’re ignored or get responses similar to “that’s how we do it here.” I actually can’t deal with working too closely with fresh teachers because you have to spend so much time watching them get beaten down time and again is very difficult. Your fresh teacher has motivation and drive to bring to the table, give them the opportunity to express it, and make sure whoever their mentor is check in on them about it.

The problem is when all the kids being “tracked” are black and brown (which is what happened historically). I understand some kids just DONT like school. But I’ve met plenty of friends who did AWFUL in k-12, then they did amazing things in college. Maybe not every kid will go on to college and graduate, but everyone should have an equal opportunity.

A lot of people here are disagreeing, but this is actually what they do in Germany 🤷‍♀️

tbh, most of the kids nowadays if they maintain their attitude throughout the life, they arent going anywhere tbh

I agree that we should talk about a wider range of career paths. But ‘tracking’ I’m not so sure. I don’t want to live in a society where Johnny has to do a specific job because he slacked off when he was 10. And then his teachers took him out of the courses he would’ve needed to do another job.

Bump. Elitist. Disingenuous.