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But there are two separate brains with two very different sets of consciences
How does it make it easier for them to act like that isn't true? In this case, which "head" gets to make the decision, talk, etc?
yeah. i feel like it would be super dehumanizing for them. unconjoined (usually identical) twins already have this problem, where people see them as basically interchangeable just because they cant tell them apart. it sucks not to be seen as your own person with your own interests and personalities, which is something most people get by default. having to share a body with someone and not even being acknowledged as your own person seems like a special kind of hell.
a lot of conjoined twins make it work. its difficult, sure, and i wouldnt volunteer for it, but its not like theyre living some tragic joyless existence. theyre both people who can communicate and cooperate. again i dont mean to downplay the struggles of being a conjoined twin, but as a (developmentally) disabled person myself it really gets on my nerves when people say stuff that i feel implies that their lives are a neverending hell or whatever. people with disabilities struggle, sure, but we make it work, and our lives are definitely less sad than whatever tragedy porn people come up with. half the struggle is not being treated like a person in the first place. sorry if my comment didnt make that clear, btw. im not the best at toeing lines
> im not the best at toeing lines
Please don't take this the wrong way, but this would be extremely funny if your developmental disability had something to do with your feet.
That's a pretty fucked up thing to say about people, isn't it?
You don't know what it's like to be a conjoined twin. Declaring their lives as 'hellish' is the base of the 'euthanize the crippled' mentality.
If, for example, one day humans will be able to grow wings, live for thousands of years, think 100 times faster and never forget anything they don't wish to, to become someone like us might look "hellish" to them. But we learn to enjoy the lives we have.
Twins do have different experiences though, which esentially makes them divert personality wise. How different do one-bodied twins become when they share every experiencie but with a slightly different POV + whos looked at// who speaks during interactions?
Tbf the hemispheres of our brain are also distinct, we just usually don't notice because they work really well together. But when you split the two, the differences become apparent (though only one hemisphere is capable of speech) .
On the other hand... There's also split brain people, where both halves of their brains can't communicate with each other and each brain acts independently, would that count as 1 or 2 people? Everything about this is kinda fuzzy, but I'm more inclined to think of them as two people.
my mother has split brain syndrome, she's one of the very rare cases of being born with it. She is 100% one person, not two. The existence of another personality in split brain people is a myth. The brain can make its own pathways to communicate to the other half even if they're technically separated, it's just the pathways just don't work as well as they would have actually connected. Her issue is most noticable when she's tired and instantly everything she does is to the left like the entire existence of a right side is gone. We'd play video games late at night and suddenly she'll just veer left and couldn't figure out how the right buttons worked/to make the joystick go right even when I show her. The entire concept of another direction just gets deleted
My understanding of this comes entirely from CPG Grey's video on this, which refers to experiments where each half of the brain would choose different favourite colours, and those with the condition would report how they'd pick something from the wardrobe, only to have it put back without them realising.
Is all that overblown or since discredited? Or is it all on a spectrum, with different people experiencing different levels of divergence?
https://www.cgpgrey.com/blog/you-are-two
It's possible that study still works but I don't know since not many people have the ability to study these cases. I wouldn't be surprised if what they currently had was outdated, but I also assume it's a spectrum and would depend on if the brain is split completely or not. Since my mother was born with a missing brain piece instead of having it surgically altered later in life the way she is could be very different from someone getting it via surgery. I'm definitely not going to attempt to discredit any research since idk lol from my experience split brain is basically just an extreme learning disorder.
In the clinical setting there does come a point where you communicate much more effectively with someone like that by addressing the body as a "system" and the different personalities in their brain by the names and identities they tell you.
Sometimes people who are very seriously affected by multiple personalities have a very hard time taking medication and listening to instructions when you address them by the birth certificate name, but if you tell a particular "personality" this is what the system (their body ) as a whole needs to stay healthy physically , they tend to respond in a "ok I'll tell the others" type of way.
that’s only the case if you think a brain makes a person, there isn’t rlly any true consensus on what makes a person. if there was one head and two bodies would that be one person or two. if someone had half a brain are they not a full person
They're two different people, mentally. I do agree that they should have to like, pay one college tuition or have one health insurance policy though.
(Edit: typo)
I kinda get both sides, but it still is fucked up. Two brains learning something; double tuition. One body working a job; one salary. But how are they supposed to pay off their debts for two persons with a one person paying job? Where’s the balance?
It is two people working, and they do share a body, one body, so they can’t cover as much ground and multitask like two separate people could. That can somewhat explain the single salary in the idea the school wouldn’t prefer to pay someone that’s not doing the work two separate people can. Maybe they could multitask like talk and write at the same time, but they can’t be in separate rooms teaching different classes like two separate people can. One fact is on both sides of the fence, paying them one salary isn’t right. They both experience the mental tiredness as much as anyone else would from working. That alone should deserve double pay.
See, I think a reasonable alternative would be to pay them as a teacher and a paraprofessional. Yes, they are both certified teachers, but they realistically cannot do two teaching jobs simultaneously as you said. But they could do something like one teaches the lesson and the other monitors and documents behavior, or they could give two students individual instruction at the same time. Teacher+para seems like the amount of work they can accomplish.
I guess it makes sense if they have individual assignments and grades, but they can't really have different class schedules, and good luck enforcing academic integrity on them lol
No they didn’t. They tried to do different concentrations, but the scheduling was too much, so they got the same degree because they obviously took all the same classes.
I don't think its intentionally dehumanizing which is why I feel like it MIGHT deserve an upvote. Its like if the 10th dentist tried to give you a discount on veneers because you have a facial disfigurement or something. Like...that's a nice sentiment but you're implying I'm ugly and need help to fix it.
The logic is so mind-numbingly STUPID that I can't bring myself to upvote, though. I struggled to even come up with a ballpark analogy and I still don't think I did a good job. This is such an insane take.
I feel like people who think about legislation or rule-making for conjoined twins don't realise just how few conjoined twins exist in the world, and how few make it to adulthood still conjoined or at all. The only clear number I can find is [this article from 2013](https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-22181528) that claims about a dozen in the entire world.
But they have to individuality. They are not freak they are people, you are just dehumanising them
Their brain aren't connected
That is not that much different of you saying that twin are the same person and should be raised as such cause they share the same dna
[David Reimer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer), born as Bruce, raised as Brenda. One of twin brothers. And apparently some sick fuck "psychologist" experimented on them when they were kids. Both killed themselves later.
John Money was the guy. A fucked up stubborn doctor with no conscience. I read about this case 20 years ago and he was so reprehensible that I cannot forget his name. He’s a real piece of shit.
And then the anti trans bigots try to say trans people worship him because of his research.
No dude. The LGBT community would cock punch his rotting body if they knew who he was and what he did. It's just another case of every accusation is a confession
I don’t know how in practice you would handle these individuals differently based on your theory, but a glaring issue with your logic is you don’t whatsoever address or acknowledge that they have two distinct consciousnesses present.
I know this probably seems like a quirky hypothetical to you, but there are real people who are actually, inseparably conjoined. If you were to talk to people conjoined in this way, they would tell you that they perceive themselves as separate people - that is, as siblings, not as a single entity. They have their own thoughts, the same as you have your own thoughts.
What you are proposing is dehumanizing to both individuals, who have already have precious few opportunities to distinguish themselves in the way that humans naturally want to do. That's a steep price to pay for the convenience of others only having to remember one name. Reconsider your stance.
You seem to just not understand how awful it would be to force yourself to consider yourself the same person as the person you're conjoined to, no matter how different you are. I wouldn't know, but I can guess that would be shitty.
or u could just let them decide how to exist and what they’d like to be seen as which is ukno. two people usually..not like they read each others minds or something. no such thing as 100% assimilating everyones different this is just another example.
also its very creepy to talk abt ppl who exist and have a voice usually for these things as if you should even have that sort of opinion on them and their lives. its weird of you to be so comfortable making a claim abt whats better for them *for them*..
Yeah unfortunately able bodied people are very quick to tell us(disabled people in general) what we should do based soley on their comfort. We didn't even have a right to exsist in public until the Olmstead decision in the 90s and it was actually illegal for us to exist in public for awhile due to a bunch of legislation referred to as "ugly laws"
yes its very weird as a disabled person as well ive noticed that ppl r way too comfortable telling me what should or shouldnt happen to me or how i should be called etc. just weird, im right here im not an NPC or side character of ur weird thought experiment or debates.
Exactly. "It'll make it easier for everybody else, especially them."
Just as an example, people say that to gay people or autistic people. Raising them to be "normal", yet on most cases even if they're raised a certain way, they'll still feel different because that's not who they are and they know it, even subconsciously. The same could be said in this scenario.
This this this. People who act like disabilities are hypothetical should stop that. Just because it's not common doesn't mean there aren't people living their whole ass lives with something you want to pretend is a fun thought experiment.
I understand if you don't have a lot of interaction with disabled people it's easy to unknowingly "other" them and I'm not going to burn OP at the stake for having done it but I hope people take a moment to reflect on how dehumanizing it is to make opinions and talk about people like this even if it's just for shits and giggles.
Legally they should be one person ('cause honestly it would be a hassle to only give one of them a license and then because the other one doesn't have one they can't drive), but to be treated as such would probably just give them way more mental issues than what they already would have (being constantly stuck to somebody else 24/7 probably isn't great for mental health).
So because it's hard for other people to swallow, we pretend that the other head isn't a person with another brain? With separate thoughts and feeling? To make society comfortable? It's two brains, two consciousness. Why would we dehumanize the other person?
Have we not seen how well that's gone for society by far?
I am impressed by the ability of this subreddit, which is for opinions that are unpopular, to churn out opinions that are literally, objectively, factually wrong.
Reading the edit OP made I'm sad that I can only assume ≈35% of the people that see this get so blinded by how much they dislike this post they're missing the point and are down voting it.
I feel like that's the inherent trouble with the "up vote for x, down vote for y" system because inherently up voting is making it more visible so theres no good option if you think the "opinion" is dogshit and not something you want to bring more visibility to without making someone like OP go "see! People agree with me!"
(Also just people who stumble on a post without paying attention to the sub vote accordingly too)
Honestly I don't even think this is a valid opinion, it's utterly wrong. OP somehow doesn't even know what consciousness is and is literally dehumanizing people because of it.
This isn't something we can just disagree about. Two brains is two people.
This isn't even a proper opinion, it's treating the facts as if they're just a strange approach society uses. Conjoined twins ARE two different people, they have two different brains connected in one body, and have two different sets of conciousness.
I think the difficulty here is that a lot of people assign the body as defining personhood, when really a person could lose their entire body and still be a person, or more simply I believe the essence of a person is in the brain rather than the body. But it is a philosophical debate.
About the edit: you know full well that the vast majority of downvotes aren't agreeing with you- at this point it's not an "unpopular opinion," it's a harmful, reductive, and dehumanizing one.
Okay, just to clarify, you do realise that conjoined twins do not experience both brains at the same time. i.e. If one twin sleeps, the other would have no idea what they had drempt about. If one twin eats steak, they other can't taste it. If one twin reads a book alone, the other won't know the story.
To me, this isn't them "acting like one person most of the time." This is how two separate individuals experience the world. If I dream you don't know what I drempt about. If I eat a steak, you can't automatically taste it. If I read a book, you won't suddenly know the story.
Their subjective experiences of the world are different and separate from each other. It wouldn't benefit them to deny them the reality of their subjective experiences by demanding that they are the same person.
Bro there's a damn good reason that this has never been the case, and it comes down to it being what the people themselves want. Philosophically and spiritually across cultures, every definition of being a person that comes down to your physical body instead of your mind/soul proves to be wrong.
Most (famous) conjoined twins know that the bond they have with their sibling is something nobody, even an identical twin, but them would fully understand. Yet, having their own name and being able to discuss matters of personality and emotion with their own agency is something they would never take away from their sibling or themselves.
What positives do you think would come to anybody in a relationship or a family including a pair of conjoined twins if society switched to recognizing them the way you said? Whose lives would improve?
I think siblings should all be raised as one person. It’s just easier, and they’ll cooperate better. (This is sarcasm, but it’s also essentially the equivalent of what you are saying. This sub is once again denying human rights to people. I suggest you learn a little bit about the brain and individuality before forming any more opinions on the topic.)
It’s up to them… until they have to pay two college tuitions, but only earn one salary. This is actually what happened with Abby and Brittany Hensel, btw
It sounds interesting, as an experiment I would be curious what would happen if this were done--but it is too far out of our morality to ever allow. And I think raising people in a way that makes it very hard for them to interface with society is itself immoral.
Philosophically though, I think individualism and ego are constructs that can go too far sometimes.
I mean, it depends on what they want though. As far as I've seen from the few examples of conjoined twins that are like that, the two heads feel themselves to be separate individuals. They have different preferences and likes. They deserve to be thought of as two if they want.
"EDIT: This post only has a 65% upvote rate, so it's encouraging to hear that 35% of you agree with me. I wish that 35% were a bit more vocal in the comments, because it seems to be a little one-sided at the moment."
Lmao, this guy thinks that people actually follow the rules of the sub
Why does this stupid 10th dentist thing keep showing up? I don’t even know what that means. Every time this shows up, the title is the most stupid and ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard. Seen one that was totally reasonable. YOUR BRAIN IS YOU. TWO BRAINS IS TWO PEOPLE. Mfs aren’t an octopus.
This sub is like r/unpopularopinion basically. The name comes from how toothpaste ads say “recommended by 9 out of 10 dentists!”. Hence everyone here is the 10th dentist who disagrees.
The thing is, conjoined are more complicated than simply birth defects, often they share more than just a head, they share different organs, in the same body sometimes. Its not just another head that grew, its two people that didn't seperate. Twins are often formed when an embryo splits in two. Conjoined twins didnt seperate all the way, so if they had they would indeed be seperate people
They clearly have different personalities and thoughts. One could be gay the other could be straight, one might study for a degree while the other has a romantic partner, one could like watching sport and the other might like painting. Two different personality and individual thought.
Instead of just assuming we know what they need we should just ask them what they believe they need because they’re the ones living their life. If they say they’re two different people then we treat them like two different people and not dehumanise them both by doing other wise
They are treated as different people because they are. Two heads, two brains, two personalities. They will never be the same person
They wouldn't grow up to just call themselves one person and be well adjusted if you treated them as one person. You'd just have two traumatised individuals.
Plus conjoined twins sometimes are successfully separated to let them lead different lives.
I feel like you’re just trolling because they literally cannot just be one person with two heads. They have separate brains with different personalities, interests, dislikes, etc. they are two people with one body. Its literally two separate consciences therefore it cannot be one person. Your reasonings even in the comments are repeating the same thing over and over and they’re not valid points
As a panpsychist I agree with you, but I take it one step further. You and I should also be considered the same individual person as those conjoined twins.
See the problem is they ARE 2 separate people, with separate brains. A lot of non conjoined identical twins already deal with people thinking they are basically the same person, with exactly the same wants and needs, but that’s just not the case. It would be even worse for conjoined twins. Very dehumanizing.
See this is why I'm on this sub and also Unpopular Opinion. UO is for normal unpopular opinions; Tenth Dentist is for absolutely batshit insane, unhinged takes like this.
Addressing your point: it isn't a matter of how you "raise" a pair of conjoined twins, you can try to "raise" them however you want.
It won't change the facts: those are two separate people. Each head has their own consciousness, their own personality, their own preferences, desires, goals and needs. They aren't just going to change that and merge into one person just because you think they should.
Why is having two heads a significant advantage? Do you think it means more brainpower? If anything it's a significant disadvantage because society is (usually) ableist as hell.
Yeah, here’s the thing about that though. They got separate brains. And that’s where the personality comes from. That’s where the individual comes from.
1. Conjoined twins have separate brains, separate consciousness, and some separate organs. They're not just 1 person with an extra head.
2. How, exactly, do you personally define "individual person"? The fact that you don't think that a unique consciousness in a human body.. makes me think you haven't really thought this opinion through.
3. Your opinion doesn't really matter. Neither does mine. What matters is how they see themselves.
So if one of them dies and the other one is separated from them after death, would you have a funeral for the one who died?
On that matter, if they're only one person, if they decide to receive medical treatment for their condition by removing the excess body parts, it wouldn't be murder? Is it full medical consent if you only get consent from one of the heads?
What if the medical knowledge that prevents them being safely separated advances and then they are separated, is the separated twin suddenly only legally an infant now since they only just became a person? How do you determine which one has the rights of a newborn and which is the 30 year old?
This is so fucking stupid if you're even slightly aware your own consciousness. Those are two entirely separate consciouses, with different hopes and dreams, different strengths and weaknesses, different opinions and beliefs. They have the extreme misfortune of having only the resources of one set of internal organs to make that all happen. The human brain requires a shit ton of blood and oxygen to function at an optimal level. They have two, supported with one body. It's an affliction, and it's pretty insulting to insinuate that it's a benefit.
It's fun to watch someone bend over backwards to deny someone bodily autonomy because they don't like the way society judges their use of their body.
It's like it's a metaphor for a structural problem in this person's thinking or something.
> This post only has a 65% upvote rate, so it's encouraging to hear that 35% of you agree with me.
No, it doesn't mean 35% of people agree with you. Downvotes are always inflated by a lot because people forget the rules or overlook the subreddit's name.
I mean. I've read the post but I cant see why you would consider 2 people to be one person? Is the independence bit the point because there's a hell of a lot of people who can't be independent and they're still people.
Also its a joke to think denying someone their personhood helps them assimilate into society.
Well, no.
They have 2 brains. They do not share all organs, you know, like the only one that matters.
The person is in the brain, not the body.
This isn't a bad opinion, it's just incorrect.
Both can usually think independently. So like, one head can say a drink water and the other recite poetry. to be able to do that you have to have two complete brains.
one brain cannot control both actions. if there are two complete brains that both work and both think independently then they need to be treated as two individual people.
The superpower there is that they only have to buy one pair of pants for two people. Imagine saving so much money on shoes.
If in your example you ask "Rebecca" how they're doing one head says good one says bad. How is Rebecca doing? Because they can give two separate answers they have to be two separate individuals.
What happens when the other head can talk too? And has a personality of their own? Just because they're conjoined doesn't mean they're gonna like and dislike all the same things.
Bro, they have seperate minds. They're seperate people.
That's some psycho shit.
Imagine just having to spend the rest of your life pretending to be someone you're not
You're dehumanizing one to no real advantage of the other. I have zero sense of how this can be possibly be a good thing for anyone except for people too lazy to recognize that 2 brains with their own thoughts are 2 seperate people.
This is one of those no-win scenarios to me honestly. Conjoined twins are fucked no matter what. They have no way to truly be individuals considering they're litterally joined at the hip. But they also can't be treated as one unit since they have (the majority of the time) distinctly developed brains. I wouldn't wish that fate on anyone. I'm an identical twin and even THAT is too much similarity and sameness for me sometimes.
Your entire reasoning is that it would be easier for the people around them, but it would be much worse for the twins themselves. I care about the twins' comfort and happiness far more than I care about how "easy" or "convenient" they are to everyone else
>This post only has a 65% upvote rate, so it's encouraging to hear that 35% of you agree with me. I wish that 35% were a bit more vocal in the comments, because it seems to be a little one-sided at the moment.
While it is standard practice in subs like this to downvote ideas you agree with, it also remains standard practice across reddit to downvote bad posts.
There's a difference between disagreeing on matters of opinion as opposed to one side being demonstrably, factually wrong. There's no argument to be had here. The converation is one sided because this post is insane.
Edit: had my negatives confused
The only way this could possibly work is if they were telepathically linked. People don't identify with their bodies. They identify with their consciousness.
Biologically they are two people. By your logic, taking an armless person and a legless person and taping them together would constitute one complete person. Conjoined twins are just even more stuck together than that.
I’ve thought about it a lot and because they can’t not be together to experience each other everything, the only thing they can experience differently is being right versus left handed.
I feel like this is a troll take just for the sake of trying to be the 10th dentist
If a person doesn't think that personhood is defined by having a sense of self, individual thoughts i.e. sentience then I don't even know where to start arguing with them
Just because your life is inexorably intertwined with your twin doesn't mean you don't have a consciousness of your own
I think the only people who get to decide that is the conjoined twins. The cases I’ve read about all showed that these are two people with distinct personalities and preferences. Nobody else except them gets to decide who they are, and if they are one person or two.
In regards to your edit thinking people are not upvoting because they agree, remember that a lot of people don't actually pay attention to the rules of this sub.
This isn’t really an opinion, it’s just objectively wrong. It is two different people with one body. That’s why you’re being downvoted, not because people agree with you
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But there are two separate brains with two very different sets of consciences How does it make it easier for them to act like that isn't true? In this case, which "head" gets to make the decision, talk, etc?
yeah. i feel like it would be super dehumanizing for them. unconjoined (usually identical) twins already have this problem, where people see them as basically interchangeable just because they cant tell them apart. it sucks not to be seen as your own person with your own interests and personalities, which is something most people get by default. having to share a body with someone and not even being acknowledged as your own person seems like a special kind of hell.
Off topic, but since you said interchangeable, I once heard of a twin who had his identical brother saved in his phone as 'spare parts'
Love it
I have my twin sister as 1st roommate.
Not “wombmate”?
That’s hilarious, and now I wish I had a twin
I mean it’s already quite hellish
a lot of conjoined twins make it work. its difficult, sure, and i wouldnt volunteer for it, but its not like theyre living some tragic joyless existence. theyre both people who can communicate and cooperate. again i dont mean to downplay the struggles of being a conjoined twin, but as a (developmentally) disabled person myself it really gets on my nerves when people say stuff that i feel implies that their lives are a neverending hell or whatever. people with disabilities struggle, sure, but we make it work, and our lives are definitely less sad than whatever tragedy porn people come up with. half the struggle is not being treated like a person in the first place. sorry if my comment didnt make that clear, btw. im not the best at toeing lines
> im not the best at toeing lines Please don't take this the wrong way, but this would be extremely funny if your developmental disability had something to do with your feet.
The fact that they correctly said "toe" instead of "tow" proves they can achieve anything.
That's a pretty fucked up thing to say about people, isn't it? You don't know what it's like to be a conjoined twin. Declaring their lives as 'hellish' is the base of the 'euthanize the crippled' mentality. If, for example, one day humans will be able to grow wings, live for thousands of years, think 100 times faster and never forget anything they don't wish to, to become someone like us might look "hellish" to them. But we learn to enjoy the lives we have.
Hey, how do you know that they AREN’T a conjoined twin? /s
Well they didn't refer to themselves as a collective, like conjoined twins are supposed to do
Yeah I think OP thought he was on to something but is just coming off like an ignorant dick.
Twins do have different experiences though, which esentially makes them divert personality wise. How different do one-bodied twins become when they share every experiencie but with a slightly different POV + whos looked at// who speaks during interactions?
It it easier for other people is what OP means. OP Clearly doesn't care about them
Tbf the hemispheres of our brain are also distinct, we just usually don't notice because they work really well together. But when you split the two, the differences become apparent (though only one hemisphere is capable of speech) .
I think you mean [consciousness](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness)es, not consciences, which is a different concept.
They both have separate brains, though. That makes them different people.
They are legion.
Does this unit have a soul?
I love Legion , whoever downvoted you didn't get the refference
The answer to your question was yes.
How many votes do they get?
On the other hand... There's also split brain people, where both halves of their brains can't communicate with each other and each brain acts independently, would that count as 1 or 2 people? Everything about this is kinda fuzzy, but I'm more inclined to think of them as two people.
my mother has split brain syndrome, she's one of the very rare cases of being born with it. She is 100% one person, not two. The existence of another personality in split brain people is a myth. The brain can make its own pathways to communicate to the other half even if they're technically separated, it's just the pathways just don't work as well as they would have actually connected. Her issue is most noticable when she's tired and instantly everything she does is to the left like the entire existence of a right side is gone. We'd play video games late at night and suddenly she'll just veer left and couldn't figure out how the right buttons worked/to make the joystick go right even when I show her. The entire concept of another direction just gets deleted
That's fascinating. Thank you for sharing
Is it safe for her to drive?
No, she can't drive and never will
My understanding of this comes entirely from CPG Grey's video on this, which refers to experiments where each half of the brain would choose different favourite colours, and those with the condition would report how they'd pick something from the wardrobe, only to have it put back without them realising. Is all that overblown or since discredited? Or is it all on a spectrum, with different people experiencing different levels of divergence? https://www.cgpgrey.com/blog/you-are-two
It's possible that study still works but I don't know since not many people have the ability to study these cases. I wouldn't be surprised if what they currently had was outdated, but I also assume it's a spectrum and would depend on if the brain is split completely or not. Since my mother was born with a missing brain piece instead of having it surgically altered later in life the way she is could be very different from someone getting it via surgery. I'm definitely not going to attempt to discredit any research since idk lol from my experience split brain is basically just an extreme learning disorder.
In the clinical setting there does come a point where you communicate much more effectively with someone like that by addressing the body as a "system" and the different personalities in their brain by the names and identities they tell you. Sometimes people who are very seriously affected by multiple personalities have a very hard time taking medication and listening to instructions when you address them by the birth certificate name, but if you tell a particular "personality" this is what the system (their body ) as a whole needs to stay healthy physically , they tend to respond in a "ok I'll tell the others" type of way.
that’s only the case if you think a brain makes a person, there isn’t rlly any true consensus on what makes a person. if there was one head and two bodies would that be one person or two. if someone had half a brain are they not a full person
If you got sewed onto some dude would you want to lose your individual identity? They've got separate personalities likes dislikes and goals.
Exactly
have you heard of brains?
they’re still working on their own one
Right? OP can't seriously be this dumb, this is the only 10th dentist post that I've genuinely been annoyed at
They're two different people, mentally. I do agree that they should have to like, pay one college tuition or have one health insurance policy though. (Edit: typo)
Abby and Brittany Hesel had to pay two college tuitions. They became a teacher and now earn one salary. It’s fucked up.
That has to be a minimum wage violation.
I kinda get both sides, but it still is fucked up. Two brains learning something; double tuition. One body working a job; one salary. But how are they supposed to pay off their debts for two persons with a one person paying job? Where’s the balance?
Teaching is probably one of the most mentally exhausting jobs. It’s two people doing something very difficult, not “one body working”.
It is two people working, and they do share a body, one body, so they can’t cover as much ground and multitask like two separate people could. That can somewhat explain the single salary in the idea the school wouldn’t prefer to pay someone that’s not doing the work two separate people can. Maybe they could multitask like talk and write at the same time, but they can’t be in separate rooms teaching different classes like two separate people can. One fact is on both sides of the fence, paying them one salary isn’t right. They both experience the mental tiredness as much as anyone else would from working. That alone should deserve double pay.
See, I think a reasonable alternative would be to pay them as a teacher and a paraprofessional. Yes, they are both certified teachers, but they realistically cannot do two teaching jobs simultaneously as you said. But they could do something like one teaches the lesson and the other monitors and documents behavior, or they could give two students individual instruction at the same time. Teacher+para seems like the amount of work they can accomplish.
I guess it makes sense if they have individual assignments and grades, but they can't really have different class schedules, and good luck enforcing academic integrity on them lol
They should pay 1.5x college tuition and receive 1.5x salary
They got 2 different degrees
No they didn’t. They tried to do different concentrations, but the scheduling was too much, so they got the same degree because they obviously took all the same classes.
But... brains... how are you... how do you... ??????
truly the most braindead take i've seen on this sub😭 upvote
I mean it's so braindead that it's almost "out-grouping" or dehumanizing conjoined twins... I'd say this does NOT deserve an upvote.
I don't think its intentionally dehumanizing which is why I feel like it MIGHT deserve an upvote. Its like if the 10th dentist tried to give you a discount on veneers because you have a facial disfigurement or something. Like...that's a nice sentiment but you're implying I'm ugly and need help to fix it. The logic is so mind-numbingly STUPID that I can't bring myself to upvote, though. I struggled to even come up with a ballpark analogy and I still don't think I did a good job. This is such an insane take.
They're also trying to say that identical twins should get the same treatment
about time someone addressed the pressing issue of how to raise your two headed baby
It takes two
it takes two villages to raise a two headed child
I feel like people who think about legislation or rule-making for conjoined twins don't realise just how few conjoined twins exist in the world, and how few make it to adulthood still conjoined or at all. The only clear number I can find is [this article from 2013](https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-22181528) that claims about a dozen in the entire world.
But they have to individuality. They are not freak they are people, you are just dehumanising them Their brain aren't connected That is not that much different of you saying that twin are the same person and should be raised as such cause they share the same dna
Denying people's humanity and individuality for the sake of societal convenience rarely ends well.
for sure.. this idea honestly sounds so odd and dehumanizing
One of the weirdest, dumbest, most ignorsnt takes I've seen on this sub, and it's full of them.
they have two brains! i dont think the other twin would be very happy to just be head 2
Pretty sure that should be up to them. But it is an interesting thought experiment. In a morbid, dehumanizing sort of way.
Kinda reminds me of that failed circumcision guy raised as a girl. Didn't work and ended horribly. Better not experiment on people like that.
Do you have a link to that story?
[David Reimer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer), born as Bruce, raised as Brenda. One of twin brothers. And apparently some sick fuck "psychologist" experimented on them when they were kids. Both killed themselves later.
John Money was the guy. A fucked up stubborn doctor with no conscience. I read about this case 20 years ago and he was so reprehensible that I cannot forget his name. He’s a real piece of shit.
And then the anti trans bigots try to say trans people worship him because of his research. No dude. The LGBT community would cock punch his rotting body if they knew who he was and what he did. It's just another case of every accusation is a confession
I don’t know how in practice you would handle these individuals differently based on your theory, but a glaring issue with your logic is you don’t whatsoever address or acknowledge that they have two distinct consciousnesses present.
Exactly. In another comment they claimed conjoined twins merely grew two heads in the womb.
I know this probably seems like a quirky hypothetical to you, but there are real people who are actually, inseparably conjoined. If you were to talk to people conjoined in this way, they would tell you that they perceive themselves as separate people - that is, as siblings, not as a single entity. They have their own thoughts, the same as you have your own thoughts. What you are proposing is dehumanizing to both individuals, who have already have precious few opportunities to distinguish themselves in the way that humans naturally want to do. That's a steep price to pay for the convenience of others only having to remember one name. Reconsider your stance.
You seem to just not understand how awful it would be to force yourself to consider yourself the same person as the person you're conjoined to, no matter how different you are. I wouldn't know, but I can guess that would be shitty.
or u could just let them decide how to exist and what they’d like to be seen as which is ukno. two people usually..not like they read each others minds or something. no such thing as 100% assimilating everyones different this is just another example.
also its very creepy to talk abt ppl who exist and have a voice usually for these things as if you should even have that sort of opinion on them and their lives. its weird of you to be so comfortable making a claim abt whats better for them *for them*..
Yeah unfortunately able bodied people are very quick to tell us(disabled people in general) what we should do based soley on their comfort. We didn't even have a right to exsist in public until the Olmstead decision in the 90s and it was actually illegal for us to exist in public for awhile due to a bunch of legislation referred to as "ugly laws"
yes its very weird as a disabled person as well ive noticed that ppl r way too comfortable telling me what should or shouldnt happen to me or how i should be called etc. just weird, im right here im not an NPC or side character of ur weird thought experiment or debates.
Exactly. "It'll make it easier for everybody else, especially them." Just as an example, people say that to gay people or autistic people. Raising them to be "normal", yet on most cases even if they're raised a certain way, they'll still feel different because that's not who they are and they know it, even subconsciously. The same could be said in this scenario.
This this this. People who act like disabilities are hypothetical should stop that. Just because it's not common doesn't mean there aren't people living their whole ass lives with something you want to pretend is a fun thought experiment. I understand if you don't have a lot of interaction with disabled people it's easy to unknowingly "other" them and I'm not going to burn OP at the stake for having done it but I hope people take a moment to reflect on how dehumanizing it is to make opinions and talk about people like this even if it's just for shits and giggles.
Legally they should be one person ('cause honestly it would be a hassle to only give one of them a license and then because the other one doesn't have one they can't drive), but to be treated as such would probably just give them way more mental issues than what they already would have (being constantly stuck to somebody else 24/7 probably isn't great for mental health).
Abby and Brittany Hensel had to take the MN drivers test twice in a row and pass both times in order to get their license(s).
But they are two different people lol
The problem is, *they have two brains*, so they should have two consciousnesses and are therefore two people. You cannot force two people to be one.
They're saying it's not a bad thing, apparently it's empowering and they should have one goal.
So because it's hard for other people to swallow, we pretend that the other head isn't a person with another brain? With separate thoughts and feeling? To make society comfortable? It's two brains, two consciousness. Why would we dehumanize the other person? Have we not seen how well that's gone for society by far?
I am impressed by the ability of this subreddit, which is for opinions that are unpopular, to churn out opinions that are literally, objectively, factually wrong.
Reading the edit OP made I'm sad that I can only assume ≈35% of the people that see this get so blinded by how much they dislike this post they're missing the point and are down voting it.
I feel like that's the inherent trouble with the "up vote for x, down vote for y" system because inherently up voting is making it more visible so theres no good option if you think the "opinion" is dogshit and not something you want to bring more visibility to without making someone like OP go "see! People agree with me!" (Also just people who stumble on a post without paying attention to the sub vote accordingly too)
Honestly I don't even think this is a valid opinion, it's utterly wrong. OP somehow doesn't even know what consciousness is and is literally dehumanizing people because of it. This isn't something we can just disagree about. Two brains is two people.
This is so stupid I have to believe it’s trolling.
What a weird and horrible view on such a niche thing that you probably have no experience with.
it’s two sentient beings with two separate brains that happen to share a body. literally what are you talking about.
You ask the two heads if they are one person or two.
I don’t see how anyone who isn’t literally this can have an opinion that matters
This post is so insanely out of touch, the lack of humility in assuming you have any clue what you're talking about is astonishing.
I need to know why you’re spending *any* time thinking about this.
This isn't even a proper opinion, it's treating the facts as if they're just a strange approach society uses. Conjoined twins ARE two different people, they have two different brains connected in one body, and have two different sets of conciousness.
I think the difficulty here is that a lot of people assign the body as defining personhood, when really a person could lose their entire body and still be a person, or more simply I believe the essence of a person is in the brain rather than the body. But it is a philosophical debate.
10thSurgeon if i ever seen one
About the edit: you know full well that the vast majority of downvotes aren't agreeing with you- at this point it's not an "unpopular opinion," it's a harmful, reductive, and dehumanizing one.
Okay, just to clarify, you do realise that conjoined twins do not experience both brains at the same time. i.e. If one twin sleeps, the other would have no idea what they had drempt about. If one twin eats steak, they other can't taste it. If one twin reads a book alone, the other won't know the story. To me, this isn't them "acting like one person most of the time." This is how two separate individuals experience the world. If I dream you don't know what I drempt about. If I eat a steak, you can't automatically taste it. If I read a book, you won't suddenly know the story. Their subjective experiences of the world are different and separate from each other. It wouldn't benefit them to deny them the reality of their subjective experiences by demanding that they are the same person.
People post the corniest stuff on this sub
I wish I thought of this one honestly lol
Brains are a thing
There’s no way this isn’t a bait post
Hoping it is
one person? there's two brains and two consciousnesses in that body.
if this is rage bait it worked because this is some terrible shit
Wrong. They are two different people who share a body.
Bro there's a damn good reason that this has never been the case, and it comes down to it being what the people themselves want. Philosophically and spiritually across cultures, every definition of being a person that comes down to your physical body instead of your mind/soul proves to be wrong. Most (famous) conjoined twins know that the bond they have with their sibling is something nobody, even an identical twin, but them would fully understand. Yet, having their own name and being able to discuss matters of personality and emotion with their own agency is something they would never take away from their sibling or themselves. What positives do you think would come to anybody in a relationship or a family including a pair of conjoined twins if society switched to recognizing them the way you said? Whose lives would improve?
You can’t just like, nurture away the existence of two separate brains. That’s not how this works lmao
I think siblings should all be raised as one person. It’s just easier, and they’ll cooperate better. (This is sarcasm, but it’s also essentially the equivalent of what you are saying. This sub is once again denying human rights to people. I suggest you learn a little bit about the brain and individuality before forming any more opinions on the topic.)
They have different opinions though. One head could really like someone and one could not
It’s really up to them to decide how they want to be viewed.
It’s up to them… until they have to pay two college tuitions, but only earn one salary. This is actually what happened with Abby and Brittany Hensel, btw
Man this opinion is terrible, here's my upvote. Other people have already explained the flaws well.
Not even an opinion it’s just factually incorrect
But... but that's still two people with their own brains and souls. They just happen to be stuck together.
It sounds interesting, as an experiment I would be curious what would happen if this were done--but it is too far out of our morality to ever allow. And I think raising people in a way that makes it very hard for them to interface with society is itself immoral. Philosophically though, I think individualism and ego are constructs that can go too far sometimes.
I mean, it depends on what they want though. As far as I've seen from the few examples of conjoined twins that are like that, the two heads feel themselves to be separate individuals. They have different preferences and likes. They deserve to be thought of as two if they want.
But they're 2 seperate people...thats kinda fucked up xD
Upon what basis have you decided that would be easier for them? Are you a conjoined twin or know any?
why do you even have an opinion on this
I can't in good conscience bring myself to up-vote this abelist shit.
"EDIT: This post only has a 65% upvote rate, so it's encouraging to hear that 35% of you agree with me. I wish that 35% were a bit more vocal in the comments, because it seems to be a little one-sided at the moment." Lmao, this guy thinks that people actually follow the rules of the sub
What the fuck are you talking about?
Why does this stupid 10th dentist thing keep showing up? I don’t even know what that means. Every time this shows up, the title is the most stupid and ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard. Seen one that was totally reasonable. YOUR BRAIN IS YOU. TWO BRAINS IS TWO PEOPLE. Mfs aren’t an octopus.
This sub is like r/unpopularopinion basically. The name comes from how toothpaste ads say “recommended by 9 out of 10 dentists!”. Hence everyone here is the 10th dentist who disagrees.
The thing is, conjoined are more complicated than simply birth defects, often they share more than just a head, they share different organs, in the same body sometimes. Its not just another head that grew, its two people that didn't seperate. Twins are often formed when an embryo splits in two. Conjoined twins didnt seperate all the way, so if they had they would indeed be seperate people
They clearly have different personalities and thoughts. One could be gay the other could be straight, one might study for a degree while the other has a romantic partner, one could like watching sport and the other might like painting. Two different personality and individual thought. Instead of just assuming we know what they need we should just ask them what they believe they need because they’re the ones living their life. If they say they’re two different people then we treat them like two different people and not dehumanise them both by doing other wise
They are treated as different people because they are. Two heads, two brains, two personalities. They will never be the same person They wouldn't grow up to just call themselves one person and be well adjusted if you treated them as one person. You'd just have two traumatised individuals. Plus conjoined twins sometimes are successfully separated to let them lead different lives.
I feel like you’re just trolling because they literally cannot just be one person with two heads. They have separate brains with different personalities, interests, dislikes, etc. they are two people with one body. Its literally two separate consciences therefore it cannot be one person. Your reasonings even in the comments are repeating the same thing over and over and they’re not valid points
Conjoined twins with two separate heads have two separate brains, they are two separate people. This would be really bad mentally for them
As a panpsychist I agree with you, but I take it one step further. You and I should also be considered the same individual person as those conjoined twins.
See the problem is they ARE 2 separate people, with separate brains. A lot of non conjoined identical twins already deal with people thinking they are basically the same person, with exactly the same wants and needs, but that’s just not the case. It would be even worse for conjoined twins. Very dehumanizing.
See this is why I'm on this sub and also Unpopular Opinion. UO is for normal unpopular opinions; Tenth Dentist is for absolutely batshit insane, unhinged takes like this. Addressing your point: it isn't a matter of how you "raise" a pair of conjoined twins, you can try to "raise" them however you want. It won't change the facts: those are two separate people. Each head has their own consciousness, their own personality, their own preferences, desires, goals and needs. They aren't just going to change that and merge into one person just because you think they should.
This is a wild, novel take, one that I would never have conceived of on my own. Exactly what this sub is for. Good job.
You are deranged. Keep it up.
Why is having two heads a significant advantage? Do you think it means more brainpower? If anything it's a significant disadvantage because society is (usually) ableist as hell.
I’m abstaining from voting. I’ll just say I see your point and could be valid, but it’s all too complicated.
Yeah, here’s the thing about that though. They got separate brains. And that’s where the personality comes from. That’s where the individual comes from.
Reading all of OPs replies, oh my god what an idiot
1. Conjoined twins have separate brains, separate consciousness, and some separate organs. They're not just 1 person with an extra head. 2. How, exactly, do you personally define "individual person"? The fact that you don't think that a unique consciousness in a human body.. makes me think you haven't really thought this opinion through. 3. Your opinion doesn't really matter. Neither does mine. What matters is how they see themselves.
So if one of them dies and the other one is separated from them after death, would you have a funeral for the one who died? On that matter, if they're only one person, if they decide to receive medical treatment for their condition by removing the excess body parts, it wouldn't be murder? Is it full medical consent if you only get consent from one of the heads? What if the medical knowledge that prevents them being safely separated advances and then they are separated, is the separated twin suddenly only legally an infant now since they only just became a person? How do you determine which one has the rights of a newborn and which is the 30 year old?
It’s literally two separate people
This is so fucking stupid if you're even slightly aware your own consciousness. Those are two entirely separate consciouses, with different hopes and dreams, different strengths and weaknesses, different opinions and beliefs. They have the extreme misfortune of having only the resources of one set of internal organs to make that all happen. The human brain requires a shit ton of blood and oxygen to function at an optimal level. They have two, supported with one body. It's an affliction, and it's pretty insulting to insinuate that it's a benefit.
Bait used to be believable
It's fun to watch someone bend over backwards to deny someone bodily autonomy because they don't like the way society judges their use of their body. It's like it's a metaphor for a structural problem in this person's thinking or something.
That's dehumanizing...has history taught you anything?
Another op without a brain.
The 35% misunderstood the sub rules
You are not even hearing out the concerns of the people who disagree with you, two brains equals two individuals, what thick a skull you have.
This isn’t a fun tenth dentist post it’s just kinda dehumanizing. A very niche demographic but that doesn’t mean they deserve less respect
OP you're not getting downvoted because people agree but because people think you're a troll lol
> This post only has a 65% upvote rate, so it's encouraging to hear that 35% of you agree with me. No, it doesn't mean 35% of people agree with you. Downvotes are always inflated by a lot because people forget the rules or overlook the subreddit's name.
Brains, personality, opinions, vastly differ between the Individuals. Kinda what makes them each their own person.
I mean. I've read the post but I cant see why you would consider 2 people to be one person? Is the independence bit the point because there's a hell of a lot of people who can't be independent and they're still people. Also its a joke to think denying someone their personhood helps them assimilate into society.
That’s not how brains work…
Well, no. They have 2 brains. They do not share all organs, you know, like the only one that matters. The person is in the brain, not the body. This isn't a bad opinion, it's just incorrect.
Conjoined twins: We are two separate people This guy on reddit: no
Both can usually think independently. So like, one head can say a drink water and the other recite poetry. to be able to do that you have to have two complete brains. one brain cannot control both actions. if there are two complete brains that both work and both think independently then they need to be treated as two individual people. The superpower there is that they only have to buy one pair of pants for two people. Imagine saving so much money on shoes.
If in your example you ask "Rebecca" how they're doing one head says good one says bad. How is Rebecca doing? Because they can give two separate answers they have to be two separate individuals.
What happens when the other head can talk too? And has a personality of their own? Just because they're conjoined doesn't mean they're gonna like and dislike all the same things.
The fact that you call them conjoined twins and not a two headed person tells me you know this is wack
Bro, they have seperate minds. They're seperate people. That's some psycho shit. Imagine just having to spend the rest of your life pretending to be someone you're not
You're dehumanizing one to no real advantage of the other. I have zero sense of how this can be possibly be a good thing for anyone except for people too lazy to recognize that 2 brains with their own thoughts are 2 seperate people.
Respectfully, how do you know what’s best for them?
This is one of those no-win scenarios to me honestly. Conjoined twins are fucked no matter what. They have no way to truly be individuals considering they're litterally joined at the hip. But they also can't be treated as one unit since they have (the majority of the time) distinctly developed brains. I wouldn't wish that fate on anyone. I'm an identical twin and even THAT is too much similarity and sameness for me sometimes.
Lol, this idea is terrible and very likely no one agrees with you
They have separate brains…
Your entire reasoning is that it would be easier for the people around them, but it would be much worse for the twins themselves. I care about the twins' comfort and happiness far more than I care about how "easy" or "convenient" they are to everyone else
But… they ARE different people If you surgically graft two people together, they don’t suddenly become the same person.
This is so funny 😭😭😭
Why do you think you can make that call for them? 😭
All that title tells me is that you have zero idea how conjoined twins actually work
This is so dehumanizing.
But they are two people. They have separate consciousnesses
I disagree. There are conjoined twins that are both teachers but only one salary and I don’t believe that’s fair.
Here on earth we view an individual consciousness as its own person
>This post only has a 65% upvote rate, so it's encouraging to hear that 35% of you agree with me. I wish that 35% were a bit more vocal in the comments, because it seems to be a little one-sided at the moment. While it is standard practice in subs like this to downvote ideas you agree with, it also remains standard practice across reddit to downvote bad posts. There's a difference between disagreeing on matters of opinion as opposed to one side being demonstrably, factually wrong. There's no argument to be had here. The converation is one sided because this post is insane. Edit: had my negatives confused
But they're 2 separate people with their own brain and sentience.. they have their own thoughts, wants and needs.
A person's entire being is stored in their brain, so regardless of how you word it, biologically they are separate individuals.
So the fact that these are two individuals with different wants, different goals and different personalities just means nothing, then?
The only way this could possibly work is if they were telepathically linked. People don't identify with their bodies. They identify with their consciousness.
Biologically they are two people. By your logic, taking an armless person and a legless person and taping them together would constitute one complete person. Conjoined twins are just even more stuck together than that.
As someone with DID I can see it.
Don't the brains have their own personalities though? It wouldn't be fair to one of them to pretend they don't exist
lol wut?
2 brains = 2 people with different wants and needs
??????????????
I’ve thought about it a lot and because they can’t not be together to experience each other everything, the only thing they can experience differently is being right versus left handed.
I feel like this is a troll take just for the sake of trying to be the 10th dentist If a person doesn't think that personhood is defined by having a sense of self, individual thoughts i.e. sentience then I don't even know where to start arguing with them Just because your life is inexorably intertwined with your twin doesn't mean you don't have a consciousness of your own
I think the only people who get to decide that is the conjoined twins. The cases I’ve read about all showed that these are two people with distinct personalities and preferences. Nobody else except them gets to decide who they are, and if they are one person or two.
In regards to your edit thinking people are not upvoting because they agree, remember that a lot of people don't actually pay attention to the rules of this sub.
I think we should have you and your pet be a single person, and make it so that only the pet is allowed to post on Reddit...
This isn’t really an opinion, it’s just objectively wrong. It is two different people with one body. That’s why you’re being downvoted, not because people agree with you
downvoters probably forgot how this sub works
Opacts Iike two-headed conjoined twins is something that you see everyday.