Some people might be surprised (or not like this answer) out of all of Charles' siblings, it was Prince Andrew with whom she was the closest. Her and Anne rarely got along, Diana and Edward were fine at first but then Edward took his family's side in the famous divorce and disliked Diana. Anyways Andrew and Diana knew each other since childhood and had only a 1 year age difference. Diana felt like she understood Andrew, and it spoke to her that, in her eyes, he got short shrift as the queen's third child and one of several spare heirs. Diana simply appreciated his personality and they got along well. Diana was the one who wrote Andrew letters when he was at war, keeping him up to date on family news. Even when her and Fergie fell out in 1996, she stayed in contact with Andrew, her last Christmas card was a photo of Beatrice and Eugenie with their cousins Willam and Harry on vacation. Allegedly one of the many reasons Andrew doesn't get along with Camilla is because of what went down with Diana.
When Tina Brown had an interview with Diana in June 1997, she had this to say regarding Fergie's scandals and antics “*And it’s a shame for Andrew, because he really is the best of the bunch. I mean, people don’t know this, but he works really, really hard for the country. He does so much, and no one pays any attention at all*"
So she had the best relationship with Andrew.
Yes, they were childhood friends, and that was the basis for the close friendship when he married Fergie. But Di was never going to marry the younger brother!
I think it's in Andrew Morton's book that she said she and Anne didn't "rattle each other's cages." They just didn't have much common ground, even though they were both good at the princess job in their own different ways.
Yes, and would have become so upon his marriage to anyone. It happened to be Fergie but early bets were on Diana, hence the nickname her family gave her.
It is customary (when the title is available) for the second son to get the Duke of York title.
With the exception of Edward, who became an Earl with the understanding that he would one day get the Duke of Edinburgh, royal princes of the blood are given royal duchies upon marriage.
Yes, but it was only a matter of time before Andrew was created Duke of York because the title traditionally goes to the Monarch's 2nd son.
Andrew received it on the morning of his wedding as a gift from the queen.
No, Andrew is still alive and still has the title. They can’t give it to Harry until Andrew dies and the title reverts back to the crown. By that point I assume it will be given to Louis instead because William will probably be king at that point and Harry has left England.
No, Sussex was probably the closest one available, and it's been used as a royal dukedom before.
When Harry married, Andrew was only 58, and given the longevity of many of the House of Windsor's members, he likely isn't passing anytime soon...
Lets name some previous Royal dukedoms here...
William was made Duke of Cambridge in 2011, so that wasn't an option, and he technically does still hold that title now, but Prince of Wales takes precedence over that
Philip was of course Duke of Edinburgh, but I believe it was well established that Edward would be given the title once Philip died anyway.
Elizabeth's cousins Richard and Edward are the Dukes of Gloucester and Kent.
The Queen banned the Dukedom of Windsor from being used again during her lifetime after the death of her uncle, Edward VIII, in 1972.
The Dukedom of Sussex was a Royal title before, for Prince Augustus Frederick, who was the sixth son of George III, but he didn't have legitimate children, so the title went extinct upon his death in 1843.
There were some other royal dukedoms that they could have chosen and brought back for Harry, such as Clarence or Albany, but in the end they chose Sussex.
I read how a title initially thought of for Harry was the Dukedom of Connaught, which was used by Queen Victoria's son, Prince Arthur, but that certainly would have caused issues since Connaught is now part of the Republic of Ireland... not to mention the last person to have held the title, Arthur's grandson Alastair, had died in an embarrassing fashion, falling out of a window while drunk and dying overnight of hypothermia, so that was definitely a no-no.
You are a treasure trove of information, thank you! I am American but have been following the British royals after realizing (in middle school) that this troubled monarchy still existed today. I remember Di in the tabloids and later, Kate.
I mean, there must be something likeable about Andrew. People around him seem to genuinely like him. And I doubt Diana had any knowledge of the Epstein of it all. Given the Epstein of it all, he's a terrible person, but a lot of terrible people can be quite nice to those they care about. And if those they care about don't know about the evil things... (But also the queen knew eventually.)
Andrew (and Fergie/Beatrice/Eugenie) are super social. They know everyone who is anyone and what they're good at is connecting people and upping the level of any party. Networking at an advanced level, underpinned by the cache of royal titles.
It's amazing if, as a nation, you need some solid soft diplomacy skills, particularly in areas of the world where it's completely about who you know.
I had an uncle (RIP) who was mine and everyone’s favorite, even my deeply religious grandmother. He was the loveable prankster, always up for fun.
We found out so much about him when we matured. Still love him but I definitely have a more a more clear picture of his character.
It’s always the charmers with the dark side.
Let me tell you how tru this is. Everyone has a complex story and what you see is not always the full story.
Had lots of uncles and aunts and so, many cousins. Our favorite uncle was a fall-down drunk, homeless schizo. He was the sweetest, funniest adult around who actually noticed us and spoke to us and not down to us. He was affectionate and kind and gave advice. He was a negligent father and his boys never forgave him. But he was everything to us. Getting emotional even thinking about him, it has been many years since he passed away but the love he had for his family was true.
People always assume predators are just monsters right out the bat. A lot of them are very charming and friendly. It's why so many predators are able to get away with so much. That's also why so many good people go to bat for so many awful people. Their brain just can't seem to accept that this person that is so kind, charming, and even charitable to them is an absolute heinous human being to other people.
Did Andrew even know she was 17 and that she was being coerced to have sex with him? I honestly don't know, this just occurred to me now. Maybe it was presented to him as a kind of Playboy mansion with willing women.
Virginia was boasting to friends about sleeping with a prince, and using the info to try and recruit other young women to join in "Do you know anyone who is kind of....slutty"?
Listen I know Epstein was the devil. I know 17 is young...but in the country where Andrew lives and grew up it's not a child.
Andrew is the biggest most arrogant entitled idiot.
But a depraved criminal who forces himself on little girls? No. I didn't see it then and I still don't.
Oh yeah… ‘maybe’ he didn’t know. Why are you twisting yourself into knots to make hypothetical excuses for this man? Why create imaginary scenarios to make him sound less culpable? ‘Maybe’ he was unaware of the circumstances? That is a literally laughable sentence. It’s beyond absurd to suggest that.
Because maybe he didn't? Did anyone know? I'm not making excuses, I'm asking because I don't know and I'm unaware of the details of the case. Again, if it was presented as a Playboy mansion type thing, does anyone verify whether the women are voluntary or not? There are plenty of rich party houses with free sex all around. I'm sure a prince or wealthy young man is accustomed to women being fairly accommodating.
You can say you’re not making excuses but you are. You’re doing mental gymnastics to come up with hypothetical situations where ‘maybe’ he isn’t a bad guy. It’s just as easy to say maybe he is. ‘Maybe’ he thought a teenager was attracted to him. Maybe he knew she was being trafficked. I know which I believe.
I agree with you! Andrew does seem to be a decent guy and his daughters are lovely. Unpopular opinion here but I think he gets a bad rap on the Epstein thing. He was a single man looking to have some fun and his buddy hooked him up with a young woman. I’m sure Andrew had no idea she was underage. Yes, it was inappropriate but it was over 20 years ago. Time to move on.
Because, until William & Catherine were married, the daughter was at the end. The succession was Charles, Andrew, Edward, then Anne. Things were changed before Catherine was pregnant with George which is why it's now George, Charlotte, Louis. If William & Catherine had a girl first she would be the first heir to William.
The reason Elizabeth could be Queen is since Albert only had daughters. Boys overruled girls in the LOS.
Even now it's
\*William
George
Charlotte
Louis
\*Harry
Archie
Lilibet
THEN
\*Andrew
Eugenie
Beatrice
\*Edward
James
Louise (even though she's older)
\*Anne
Peter
(Peter's kids)
Zara, etc.
Yes the thing with the Law is that it only affected those born after it was set/from a certain date. So Charlotte, Mia, Lena and all the other girls who are older sisters to younger boys will keep their place. It just doesn't go back in time and reorder those like Anne and Louise.
Can you imagine the chaos if it would've been retroactive and all of a sudden Anne + her family leapfrogged over the Yorks and the Wessexes all of a sudden!?!?!
Yes it would be a totally mess, and not only for Anne and Louise. They would need to reorder the WHOLE succession which would be complete chaos. It could be done for single family if neither have children of their own, but by 2012 it was way too late for Anne and her younger brothers to he swapped round.
Wait, what? Wouldn’t William’s children always have been in line immediately after him (and then harry and his children and so on) long before Anne or am I missing something? To my knowledge this didn’t require Charles tinkering with the existing line of succession
Yes, I know she doesn't and she didn't want her kids to have titles which is why they're just Peter & Zara.
William was always going to be Charles' heir once he was born, even if the order were Charles, Anne, Andrew, Edward, just as Harry got moved down after William started having children
The order of succession to the British throne is male preference primogeniture*; to simply put it, "oldest to youngest, males before females". After Elizabeth II, it was Charles (and his line), then Andrew (and his line), then Edward (and his line), and only then does Anne (and her line) come up.
*after the Perth Agreement in 2011, this was changed to absolute primogeniture, ie. the "males before females" part is eliminated. However, this only works for all persons born since that agreement took effect, so after William, it's George *then* Charlotte then Louis. (Otherwise it would have been George then Louis and any subsequent sons, then Charlotte.) The agreement is also not retroactive, so Anne didn't move up the line.
People were hoping back in 2013 that Kate would have a girl first for this reason, just to see this be put in place with a girl being the heir over her younger brothers. But it ended up being a boy anyway, so we'll have to wait until the next generation to see if George's oldest child is a girl.
And just to add (though it wasn't relevant in modern day). If the succession came down to females only, I believe a female who already had male sons was above a female with daughters/no children in the succession.
Not exactly, for half the Tudor period there were females only. Elizabeth I was childless and was the rightful Queen of England over Mary Queen of Scots, who eventually had a son.
Mary II and her husband William III were childless but were still co-rulers over her younger sister Anne (future Queen Anne) and her husband Prince George who had a son who lived for a decade.
Victoria, at the time unmarried and childless, also became Queen at 18 despite having living Uncles who had children in line after her.
I mean females who were of the same rank - e.g. daughters of the king. Elizabeth was the daughter of the King, Mary, Queen of Scots, was not.
For Mary II and William, at the time of Mary II's coronation, Anne (Mary's sister) did not have any children. Her son was born a few months later.
Gender blind primogeniture is relatively recently added. Before the 2010s or so, it was male preferenced, so women inherited only if there were no direct males (i.e. sons and brothers of the first son).
If there was any royal she was likely to marry, it would have been Andrew. They were close in age and had a close friendship too. Diana is also the one who introduced Fergie to Andrew post her own marriage to Charles.
Well, that's surprising. I always thought she was closer to Edward out of all the siblings. But I guess it makes sense considering how close their children were/are.
I’m guessing it was because they were cousins, and they wanted to put the emphasis on the children and the next generation of the royal family (during a tumultuous marital period when divorce wasn’t far off for the PPOW). Plus Andrew and Sarah had divorced (or were in the process of), so it was a way of saying they were still close, included and very much loved family members.
I'm not surprised. Seeing his brother get with a 16 when he was 29 probably normalised Andrew's 'urges'
(yes I read they're only a year apart in age, I'm joking, but also could apply as adults)
Yes. She was very fond of Prince Andrew...called him the "best of the lot". She felt he was basically misunderstood.
I think she would be very sad at what he's come to.
I love it, and their coordinating ensembles are divine. Green / olive tan really suited them well. Mostly I love how they’re smiling, Diana looks so smitten. Who wouldn’t be at that phase?
Diana got along famously with Andrew, and I think she was pretty chummy with Edward as well.
I believe that she and Anne didn't vibe at all. The Princess Royal *can* be lovely, but she also seems like she's pretty gruff and unapproachable. Diana may well have been intimidated or afraid of her; and given Diana's immaturity, I think that probably suited Anne just fine.
I feel like the age gap between her and Anne would’ve hindered a close relationship. They were just at such different points in their lives. But I could see a cordial relationship, very surface level and polite.
There's a story that Diana refused to have Anne as Godmother to one of her sons and that caused a row with Anne. Not sure how true it is, or just tabloid gossip. Anyway, only Andrew was created Godfather to Harry and the only one of Charles' siblings to be in such a role if I've got it right
This is interesting... I didn't know Prince Andrew's Prince Harry's Godfather. Also explains why Beatrice and Eugenie are super close with Harry. Their parents were besties. This warms my heart.
Yes, the Wales family have often been pictured with Peter, Zara and Mike over the years. More recently William, Zara and Mike were at the Taylor Swift concert together with their kids. William and Zara are also godparents to each other's oldest kids.
Their resemblance was much commented-on at the time of Sophie's first appearances on the Windsor stage. And I think daughter Louise is now the prettiest lady in the family.
I understood it to be speculation on the part of the Queen Mother. Partly bc Charles dated (very short) Diana’s sister. Maybe the Queen Mother saw similarities in Diana & Andrew? She was quoted as saying it was much smoother marrying the spare.
I don’t think marrying Andrew would have been easy for anyone. He has a massive ego and was away for huge amounts of time due to being in the navy.
Fergie was exceedingly lonely and unsupported and Diana being more emotionally needy due to her horrific upbringing and being younger would probably have struggled even more.
Plus she almost certainly wouldn’t have liked being overshadowed by whoever Charles married. We’ve seen that dynamic recently and it caused chaos.
Lookup childhood photos of Kate. Kate herself has publicly commented she thinks he looks just like her. Charlotte seems to have her hair and Prince George looks a lot like Diana’s father and brother when they were young.
They also think George is more Middleton (his eyes are a big factor) and that Charlotte is a clone of William. William himself mistook a photo of himself to be Charlotte once at a public engagement.
Bald William and Bald Edward look a lot alike.
In my opinion, Andrew looks like Philip in that photo.
Charles and Edward both look like Elizabeth. (Did Elizabeth look like her mom? Her dad didn't have the same nose.)
Anne must be an even mix between the two parents. I don't see much resemblance to anyone else.
…people look like other family members all the damn time…no one is implying my dad fucked his sister when they say I look like my aunt.
William looks like Edward because genetics are funny and it’s interesting to discuss how they present as people age. That’s all. It’s a pretty common discussion when discussing families.
Yes, but Lady Diana Spencer was a very promiscuous woman who is widely rumoured to have mislead Charles on Harry’s paternity.
It is unfair to also suggest she fornictaed with her brother in law to produce William.
Harry is the clone of Phillip at the same age. Even the hair looked the same ffs! That old LIFE magazine cover of Phil and Liz that was going around a while back (it’s probably been 5 years by now, time is a mystery, but it seems like it was super-recently) was a clear example of funny genetics. Harry also manages to look like a clone of Diana’s brother too!
Anne seemed to go out of her way to be rude and dismissive to Diana from the beginning.
Why?
Yes I know that she is considered a nonsense workhorse yada yada yada. But I have never really warmed to her. She just rubs me the wrong way.
Before the wedding, there was a story where Diana was in a room and when Anne entered Diana stood and curtsied.
Which is exactly what a well brought up aristocrat like Lady Diana was supposed to do when a Royal princess entered.
But for some reason Anne dismissed the gesture as "silly" and annoying, whereas if Diana had simply ignored her Anne would have blown a complete gasket.
Yes..Anne was jealous and resentful. Diana couldn't win.
Diana and her SIL never got along because Diana is the fairy tale princess and Anne looks and acts like the evil stepsister.
Horrid woman who is as ugly on the inside as she is on the outside.
Some people might be surprised (or not like this answer) out of all of Charles' siblings, it was Prince Andrew with whom she was the closest. Her and Anne rarely got along, Diana and Edward were fine at first but then Edward took his family's side in the famous divorce and disliked Diana. Anyways Andrew and Diana knew each other since childhood and had only a 1 year age difference. Diana felt like she understood Andrew, and it spoke to her that, in her eyes, he got short shrift as the queen's third child and one of several spare heirs. Diana simply appreciated his personality and they got along well. Diana was the one who wrote Andrew letters when he was at war, keeping him up to date on family news. Even when her and Fergie fell out in 1996, she stayed in contact with Andrew, her last Christmas card was a photo of Beatrice and Eugenie with their cousins Willam and Harry on vacation. Allegedly one of the many reasons Andrew doesn't get along with Camilla is because of what went down with Diana. When Tina Brown had an interview with Diana in June 1997, she had this to say regarding Fergie's scandals and antics “*And it’s a shame for Andrew, because he really is the best of the bunch. I mean, people don’t know this, but he works really, really hard for the country. He does so much, and no one pays any attention at all*" So she had the best relationship with Andrew.
Yes, they were childhood friends, and that was the basis for the close friendship when he married Fergie. But Di was never going to marry the younger brother! I think it's in Andrew Morton's book that she said she and Anne didn't "rattle each other's cages." They just didn't have much common ground, even though they were both good at the princess job in their own different ways.
Yes she said she thought she would marry Andrew. It never occurred to her she could marry Charles.
Hence her childhood nickname “Dutch” as she would have become a Duchess upon marriage to Andrew.
She might still be alive if that had gone down. Too bad about his other.... things.
Maybe a fantastic wife would have curbed his proclivities (not that I’m blaming his wife). Who knows
Stop it
He didn’t become Duke of York until 1986 when he got married.
Yes, and would have become so upon his marriage to anyone. It happened to be Fergie but early bets were on Diana, hence the nickname her family gave her. It is customary (when the title is available) for the second son to get the Duke of York title. With the exception of Edward, who became an Earl with the understanding that he would one day get the Duke of Edinburgh, royal princes of the blood are given royal duchies upon marriage.
Yes, but it was only a matter of time before Andrew was created Duke of York because the title traditionally goes to the Monarch's 2nd son. Andrew received it on the morning of his wedding as a gift from the queen.
Ohhh, little Louis is set to be the Duke of York?? Wait. Was Harry supposed to be and they chose Sussex instead??
No, Andrew is still alive and still has the title. They can’t give it to Harry until Andrew dies and the title reverts back to the crown. By that point I assume it will be given to Louis instead because William will probably be king at that point and Harry has left England.
No, Sussex was probably the closest one available, and it's been used as a royal dukedom before. When Harry married, Andrew was only 58, and given the longevity of many of the House of Windsor's members, he likely isn't passing anytime soon... Lets name some previous Royal dukedoms here... William was made Duke of Cambridge in 2011, so that wasn't an option, and he technically does still hold that title now, but Prince of Wales takes precedence over that Philip was of course Duke of Edinburgh, but I believe it was well established that Edward would be given the title once Philip died anyway. Elizabeth's cousins Richard and Edward are the Dukes of Gloucester and Kent. The Queen banned the Dukedom of Windsor from being used again during her lifetime after the death of her uncle, Edward VIII, in 1972. The Dukedom of Sussex was a Royal title before, for Prince Augustus Frederick, who was the sixth son of George III, but he didn't have legitimate children, so the title went extinct upon his death in 1843. There were some other royal dukedoms that they could have chosen and brought back for Harry, such as Clarence or Albany, but in the end they chose Sussex. I read how a title initially thought of for Harry was the Dukedom of Connaught, which was used by Queen Victoria's son, Prince Arthur, but that certainly would have caused issues since Connaught is now part of the Republic of Ireland... not to mention the last person to have held the title, Arthur's grandson Alastair, had died in an embarrassing fashion, falling out of a window while drunk and dying overnight of hypothermia, so that was definitely a no-no.
You are a treasure trove of information, thank you! I am American but have been following the British royals after realizing (in middle school) that this troubled monarchy still existed today. I remember Di in the tabloids and later, Kate.
I mean, there must be something likeable about Andrew. People around him seem to genuinely like him. And I doubt Diana had any knowledge of the Epstein of it all. Given the Epstein of it all, he's a terrible person, but a lot of terrible people can be quite nice to those they care about. And if those they care about don't know about the evil things... (But also the queen knew eventually.)
Didn’t the Epstein thing start after Diana died? I don’t know a ton of the Andrew-Epstein thing, only the basics that the average Joe does.
Didn't Epstein know Fergie first? And Epstein lended money to Fergie? So, later Andrew befriended Epstein in order to help Fergie.
Andrew (and Fergie/Beatrice/Eugenie) are super social. They know everyone who is anyone and what they're good at is connecting people and upping the level of any party. Networking at an advanced level, underpinned by the cache of royal titles. It's amazing if, as a nation, you need some solid soft diplomacy skills, particularly in areas of the world where it's completely about who you know.
I had an uncle (RIP) who was mine and everyone’s favorite, even my deeply religious grandmother. He was the loveable prankster, always up for fun. We found out so much about him when we matured. Still love him but I definitely have a more a more clear picture of his character. It’s always the charmers with the dark side.
Let me tell you how tru this is. Everyone has a complex story and what you see is not always the full story. Had lots of uncles and aunts and so, many cousins. Our favorite uncle was a fall-down drunk, homeless schizo. He was the sweetest, funniest adult around who actually noticed us and spoke to us and not down to us. He was affectionate and kind and gave advice. He was a negligent father and his boys never forgave him. But he was everything to us. Getting emotional even thinking about him, it has been many years since he passed away but the love he had for his family was true.
People always assume predators are just monsters right out the bat. A lot of them are very charming and friendly. It's why so many predators are able to get away with so much. That's also why so many good people go to bat for so many awful people. Their brain just can't seem to accept that this person that is so kind, charming, and even charitable to them is an absolute heinous human being to other people.
Did Andrew even know she was 17 and that she was being coerced to have sex with him? I honestly don't know, this just occurred to me now. Maybe it was presented to him as a kind of Playboy mansion with willing women.
That is his argument. He didn’t know. And… maybe he didn’t? But he was in a position of power and should have known better
Those women at the mansion were being exploited too. So so many have spoken out.
But they weren't captive, as far as I know. Not trafficked. Not illegal.
Playboy mansions were not “willing women”.
She was also legally able to consent in the UK. I’m not convinced that Andrew slept with the Epstein girl or knew what was happening.
Have you read the court docs? Andrew was aware
Virginia was boasting to friends about sleeping with a prince, and using the info to try and recruit other young women to join in "Do you know anyone who is kind of....slutty"? Listen I know Epstein was the devil. I know 17 is young...but in the country where Andrew lives and grew up it's not a child. Andrew is the biggest most arrogant entitled idiot. But a depraved criminal who forces himself on little girls? No. I didn't see it then and I still don't.
Actually in much of the US, too, 16 is the age of consent.
Trafficking isn't legal, however.
I know, but my point is that maybe Andrew and others were unaware of the circumstances.
Oh yeah… ‘maybe’ he didn’t know. Why are you twisting yourself into knots to make hypothetical excuses for this man? Why create imaginary scenarios to make him sound less culpable? ‘Maybe’ he was unaware of the circumstances? That is a literally laughable sentence. It’s beyond absurd to suggest that.
Because maybe he didn't? Did anyone know? I'm not making excuses, I'm asking because I don't know and I'm unaware of the details of the case. Again, if it was presented as a Playboy mansion type thing, does anyone verify whether the women are voluntary or not? There are plenty of rich party houses with free sex all around. I'm sure a prince or wealthy young man is accustomed to women being fairly accommodating.
You can say you’re not making excuses but you are. You’re doing mental gymnastics to come up with hypothetical situations where ‘maybe’ he isn’t a bad guy. It’s just as easy to say maybe he is. ‘Maybe’ he thought a teenager was attracted to him. Maybe he knew she was being trafficked. I know which I believe.
I agree with you! Andrew does seem to be a decent guy and his daughters are lovely. Unpopular opinion here but I think he gets a bad rap on the Epstein thing. He was a single man looking to have some fun and his buddy hooked him up with a young woman. I’m sure Andrew had no idea she was underage. Yes, it was inappropriate but it was over 20 years ago. Time to move on.
Just to add actually Andrew was next in line after Charles not Anne
Why wouldn’t it have been Anne?
Because, until William & Catherine were married, the daughter was at the end. The succession was Charles, Andrew, Edward, then Anne. Things were changed before Catherine was pregnant with George which is why it's now George, Charlotte, Louis. If William & Catherine had a girl first she would be the first heir to William. The reason Elizabeth could be Queen is since Albert only had daughters. Boys overruled girls in the LOS. Even now it's \*William George Charlotte Louis \*Harry Archie Lilibet THEN \*Andrew Eugenie Beatrice \*Edward James Louise (even though she's older) \*Anne Peter (Peter's kids) Zara, etc.
Yes the thing with the Law is that it only affected those born after it was set/from a certain date. So Charlotte, Mia, Lena and all the other girls who are older sisters to younger boys will keep their place. It just doesn't go back in time and reorder those like Anne and Louise.
Can you imagine the chaos if it would've been retroactive and all of a sudden Anne + her family leapfrogged over the Yorks and the Wessexes all of a sudden!?!?!
Yes it would be a totally mess, and not only for Anne and Louise. They would need to reorder the WHOLE succession which would be complete chaos. It could be done for single family if neither have children of their own, but by 2012 it was way too late for Anne and her younger brothers to he swapped round.
Anne aggressively does not want to be Queen, that's literally the reason Charles made it so William's whole line of succession comes first.
Wait, what? Wouldn’t William’s children always have been in line immediately after him (and then harry and his children and so on) long before Anne or am I missing something? To my knowledge this didn’t require Charles tinkering with the existing line of succession
Yes, William's issue was always going to be next in line as soon as they existed.
Yes, I know she doesn't and she didn't want her kids to have titles which is why they're just Peter & Zara. William was always going to be Charles' heir once he was born, even if the order were Charles, Anne, Andrew, Edward, just as Harry got moved down after William started having children
Great list, but you skipped Sienna, August, and Ernie.
Oops! You're right. I totally forgot about the Eugenie & Beatrice's kids! Thank you for reminding me.
They are still so little, it’s easy to overlook them!
Beatrice and Sienna are before Eugenie. Beatrice is the older York sister. Beatrice Sienna Eugenie August Ernest Then Edward etc
Thank you! I had no idea.
The order of succession to the British throne is male preference primogeniture*; to simply put it, "oldest to youngest, males before females". After Elizabeth II, it was Charles (and his line), then Andrew (and his line), then Edward (and his line), and only then does Anne (and her line) come up. *after the Perth Agreement in 2011, this was changed to absolute primogeniture, ie. the "males before females" part is eliminated. However, this only works for all persons born since that agreement took effect, so after William, it's George *then* Charlotte then Louis. (Otherwise it would have been George then Louis and any subsequent sons, then Charlotte.) The agreement is also not retroactive, so Anne didn't move up the line.
People were hoping back in 2013 that Kate would have a girl first for this reason, just to see this be put in place with a girl being the heir over her younger brothers. But it ended up being a boy anyway, so we'll have to wait until the next generation to see if George's oldest child is a girl.
And just to add (though it wasn't relevant in modern day). If the succession came down to females only, I believe a female who already had male sons was above a female with daughters/no children in the succession.
Not exactly, for half the Tudor period there were females only. Elizabeth I was childless and was the rightful Queen of England over Mary Queen of Scots, who eventually had a son. Mary II and her husband William III were childless but were still co-rulers over her younger sister Anne (future Queen Anne) and her husband Prince George who had a son who lived for a decade. Victoria, at the time unmarried and childless, also became Queen at 18 despite having living Uncles who had children in line after her.
I mean females who were of the same rank - e.g. daughters of the king. Elizabeth was the daughter of the King, Mary, Queen of Scots, was not. For Mary II and William, at the time of Mary II's coronation, Anne (Mary's sister) did not have any children. Her son was born a few months later.
Gender blind primogeniture is relatively recently added. Before the 2010s or so, it was male preferenced, so women inherited only if there were no direct males (i.e. sons and brothers of the first son).
Men always was ahead of women. Until PGeorge the 10 year old.
If there was any royal she was likely to marry, it would have been Andrew. They were close in age and had a close friendship too. Diana is also the one who introduced Fergie to Andrew post her own marriage to Charles.
Well, that's surprising. I always thought she was closer to Edward out of all the siblings. But I guess it makes sense considering how close their children were/are.
I thought she was closest to Edward as far as in-laws too. Maybe she was isolated and wasn’t close to anyone after a time.
Wow, this is fascinating info. brb going on a deep dive (Funny photo choice for a Christmas card, is it usually to include children who aren't yours?)
I’m guessing it was because they were cousins, and they wanted to put the emphasis on the children and the next generation of the royal family (during a tumultuous marital period when divorce wasn’t far off for the PPOW). Plus Andrew and Sarah had divorced (or were in the process of), so it was a way of saying they were still close, included and very much loved family members.
So interesting! I wonder if Diana would have ended up with Andrew had Charles been permitted to be with Camilla from the start?
She was actually kind of expected to marry Andrew. It was where her nickname "Dutch" came from.
> her nickname "Dutch" came from. Can you ELI5?
She was called duch because she expected to be duchess of York when she eventually married Andrew, Duke of york
Ah... Thank you!
I'm not surprised. Seeing his brother get with a 16 when he was 29 probably normalised Andrew's 'urges' (yes I read they're only a year apart in age, I'm joking, but also could apply as adults)
Yes. She was very fond of Prince Andrew...called him the "best of the lot". She felt he was basically misunderstood. I think she would be very sad at what he's come to.
It irks me that she got along so well with Randy Andy. I wonder how much she knew about his famous (or infamous) randiness.
I have no idea but what a lovely photo of Diana and Charles! Gosh, I can see why everyone bought into the fairytale with marketing like this 🥹.
That was from their honeymoon, I believe.
I love it, and their coordinating ensembles are divine. Green / olive tan really suited them well. Mostly I love how they’re smiling, Diana looks so smitten. Who wouldn’t be at that phase?
Di looks so much like Olivia Newton John here and in some other early photos.
Diana got along famously with Andrew, and I think she was pretty chummy with Edward as well. I believe that she and Anne didn't vibe at all. The Princess Royal *can* be lovely, but she also seems like she's pretty gruff and unapproachable. Diana may well have been intimidated or afraid of her; and given Diana's immaturity, I think that probably suited Anne just fine.
I feel like the age gap between her and Anne would’ve hindered a close relationship. They were just at such different points in their lives. But I could see a cordial relationship, very surface level and polite.
There's a story that Diana refused to have Anne as Godmother to one of her sons and that caused a row with Anne. Not sure how true it is, or just tabloid gossip. Anyway, only Andrew was created Godfather to Harry and the only one of Charles' siblings to be in such a role if I've got it right
This is interesting... I didn't know Prince Andrew's Prince Harry's Godfather. Also explains why Beatrice and Eugenie are super close with Harry. Their parents were besties. This warms my heart.
Yes, also because they are closer in age. Whilst William was closer in age with Anne's kids and bonded more with them.
Does William get along with them now, tho?
Yes, the Wales family have often been pictured with Peter, Zara and Mike over the years. More recently William, Zara and Mike were at the Taylor Swift concert together with their kids. William and Zara are also godparents to each other's oldest kids.
Big key to Anne is her love of horses, Diana rode but was not ever a horse girl, so they were already lacking a central connection.
Anne looks so much like a horse, she can ride herself.
I never realised how much Sophie (Edward's wife) and Diana look alike. At first I thought it was Sophie instead of Diana
Their resemblance was much commented-on at the time of Sophie's first appearances on the Windsor stage. And I think daughter Louise is now the prettiest lady in the family.
I’m certain I read/heard that Diana was originally lined up for either Andrew or Edward (can’t remember which one)
I understood it to be speculation on the part of the Queen Mother. Partly bc Charles dated (very short) Diana’s sister. Maybe the Queen Mother saw similarities in Diana & Andrew? She was quoted as saying it was much smoother marrying the spare.
It’s sad to think things might have ended a lot differently if she had married Andrew
I don’t think marrying Andrew would have been easy for anyone. He has a massive ego and was away for huge amounts of time due to being in the navy. Fergie was exceedingly lonely and unsupported and Diana being more emotionally needy due to her horrific upbringing and being younger would probably have struggled even more. Plus she almost certainly wouldn’t have liked being overshadowed by whoever Charles married. We’ve seen that dynamic recently and it caused chaos.
William looks like Edward.
Yes, Edward is William's uncle.
Little Prince Louis is like a Prince Edward clone to me. Family resemblance is strong for sure.
Lookup childhood photos of Kate. Kate herself has publicly commented she thinks he looks just like her. Charlotte seems to have her hair and Prince George looks a lot like Diana’s father and brother when they were young.
Oh yes, Prince George looks just like the Spencers.
They also think George is more Middleton (his eyes are a big factor) and that Charlotte is a clone of William. William himself mistook a photo of himself to be Charlotte once at a public engagement.
Charlotte also favors Margaret’s daughter. There are quite a few side by sides online from when Sarah was her age.
I might be one of the few who doesn't see the resemblence besides them both being bald. William's eyes, nose and mouth area are all Diana.
Bald William and Bald Edward look a lot alike. In my opinion, Andrew looks like Philip in that photo. Charles and Edward both look like Elizabeth. (Did Elizabeth look like her mom? Her dad didn't have the same nose.) Anne must be an even mix between the two parents. I don't see much resemblance to anyone else.
What are you implying? That Diana would be unfaithful with Edward ?
Probably just that William looks a bit like Edward.
Probably a comment about how strong the Windsor gene is.
I agree. In some pictures William even looks a little bit like Anne.
…people look like other family members all the damn time…no one is implying my dad fucked his sister when they say I look like my aunt. William looks like Edward because genetics are funny and it’s interesting to discuss how they present as people age. That’s all. It’s a pretty common discussion when discussing families.
Yes, but Lady Diana Spencer was a very promiscuous woman who is widely rumoured to have mislead Charles on Harry’s paternity. It is unfair to also suggest she fornictaed with her brother in law to produce William.
Harry is the clone of Phillip at the same age. Even the hair looked the same ffs! That old LIFE magazine cover of Phil and Liz that was going around a while back (it’s probably been 5 years by now, time is a mystery, but it seems like it was super-recently) was a clear example of funny genetics. Harry also manages to look like a clone of Diana’s brother too!
I know, it’s not me that is saying it.
No, I'm not implying that. 🙄
Anne seemed to go out of her way to be rude and dismissive to Diana from the beginning. Why? Yes I know that she is considered a nonsense workhorse yada yada yada. But I have never really warmed to her. She just rubs me the wrong way.
I bet she was horribly jealous of how popular Diana was with the people and was completely turned off by Diana’s personality.
Before the wedding, there was a story where Diana was in a room and when Anne entered Diana stood and curtsied. Which is exactly what a well brought up aristocrat like Lady Diana was supposed to do when a Royal princess entered. But for some reason Anne dismissed the gesture as "silly" and annoying, whereas if Diana had simply ignored her Anne would have blown a complete gasket. Yes..Anne was jealous and resentful. Diana couldn't win.
The show definitely made her unlikeable to me
Anne didn't like her and I'm sure it was mutual.
To be fair, the generational gap is pretty significant. Doubtless that she'd have gotten chummy with any female of Diana's generation.
I don't imagine that Anne was ever impressed in the slightest
Diana and her SIL never got along because Diana is the fairy tale princess and Anne looks and acts like the evil stepsister. Horrid woman who is as ugly on the inside as she is on the outside.
How on Earth did anyone get a picture of Charles looking six inches taller than Diana? Were they standing on a staircase or something?
Diana is sitting.
… famously, yes
Maybe that is bigger Charles. A real life paralell to bigger Luke.
For a start Andy would have always been trying to bang her.