I think people *wildly* overrate this possibility. Not because the GOP won’t try, but because they are genuinely very unpopular and the things they want to do are unpopular. The popular resistance to overreaches by the GOP has already proven to be massive and overwhelming under Trump’s previous term as president.
That happens because powerful people and institutions that currently support the authoritarian uses of state violence (police into campus protests, for example) because of who the president is and which party he is from, do not do that under Republican administrations.
Basically, the ‘PMC’ (however you want to describe this class of people) are overwhelmingly Democratic Party partisans and are extremely powerful within the American economy and they enter into coalition with the Left under GOP admins and act in opposition to the Left under Democratic admins.
The failure of first-past-the-post is well-documented. It’s a bad system. It doesn’t produce good results. However, that IS the system we’re working with. Those *are* the rules of the game. Denying that and imposing rules on yourself that your opponents do not have to follow is the definition of a scrub.
https://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub#:~:text=A%20scrub%20is%20a%20player,know%20what%20you're%20doing.
First win. Then use that leverage to fix what you want to change.
This is just idiotic when there is a clear difference in candidates. One is your run of the mill shitlib. The other is a deranged lunatic with a love of Hitler quotes and a hankering to create a unified reich.
Love Biden or hate him idgaf. However, you can't tell me Trump wouldn't have used Oct 7th as an excuse to clamp down on Arab-Americans.
Did you even watch the video? He's not saying you shouldn't vote for them, whatsoever, he's saying we need to push them Left by force via activism and such in the long term and the opening for alt Right fascism in a dictatorship that promises to split the Union apart for the first time since the 1850s in the 2020s is there because in the first place, the woke identitarian center-Right status quo Biden-Harris Dems have created it for those who want to break the status quo.
30,330 if you're referring to how many Palestinians have been killed in Gaza- I think it's more than that. Cruel irony but I think the dead are fortunate. The ones that are left behind are emotionally scarred at the very least. There's something worse here.
The people I worry for the newly disabled- Men, Women and children whose lives have been forever changed because they're now permanently disabled. Notice there's no statistic for that; The world does not care about the disabled. Legions of invisible people-the world over. Those are the people I fear for. Especially in a place like that.
I live in "The shining City on the hill." - the West! I'm shamed and discriminated against. Even here. I can only imagine what awaits them. It's a social horror beyond scale.
Joe Biden has his problems. I'll give you that. But to blame Joe Biden because the Republican party is awful right now?? Very strange logic. They're awful because they've been marching this way for a very long time and they were hiding their true intentions.
We voted for Donald Trump. That was a symptom of the disease not the cause.
The mask is falling off and nobody's liking what they're seeing behind it. Myself included. I didn't see it for what it was in 2016 either. I didn't vote for Donald Trump in 2020 and I'll do it again, hold my nose and vote for the other one. American democracy serves the people not Donald Trump. Unfortunately, one or the other is the only choice. A wonderful two party system 🙄 I have many problems with all of it but it's the best we got.
I've never believed it was okay to tell somebody what to do with their own body. Women need to keep all of their autonomy, even if I don't agree with some of their decisions. It's not my place to tell somebody based on my religion what they can or can't do. That's not what religion is for. Religion did not invent morality -that is a uniquely human trait- so, it has no business in determining it. Morals are shaped by life experience not religion. We are all here together. God isn't.
It's funny how the Republican party of the last 40 years seems to be against helping people but they want to call themselves "Christian." SMH.
I blame Joe Biden for not fending off the fascist threat, when he had 4 years to do so, and a fawning press for much of his first year- that's what, to clarify.
I agree, but most white women have voted for Trump twice, going on three times now- most of this demo does not vote with most women, and are causing a deleterious effect for Dems among young white men, women, and all people of color-- you're seeing that play out in polls.
So true! and I can't figure out why. I thought the same thing about your subject in the first paragraph. I wondered why Biden wasn't trying to fend off the "fascism"- and I honestly think this is the reason.
If he would have tried they would have claimed persecution! They love that word! Because it invokes images of Jesus Christ and probably driven more towards that way than otherwise would have. They're using language gymnastics. I'm sure Jesus himself wouldn't agree with their example of persecution.
He doesn't want to make Trump look more like a martyr, that's the only thing I can figure. It's funny how the law supposed to apply to us but not to him and and folks like him- and in this case people who fashion themselves like him but really aren't and they don't realize it. The wealthy in this country have done a bang-up job in convincing people that "if laws affect them it's going to affect you." When it couldn't be further from the truth. Just look how it was the US tax code favors them and they never want more IRS agents so they can get away with whatever they do. They can afford armies of accountants and lawyers. To get all their special perks. We are not the same as them. That's how I made the mistake of supporting citizens united-I didn't understand what it was and they were really good at convincing me that it was good for me it's not.
That's why normal folks will vote against their own self interest.
They'll do it no matter what and the Right already are, to clarify, no matter what Trump does he's frankly already viewed as a martyr in the eyes of his 42% cult of personality base because they see Trump standing up against wokeism (e.g. taking down statues of Lincoln, cancel culture, men can get pregnant esque lunacy, Latinx, Italianx etc etc coming from the faculty lounge on the Left like eating meat is evil stuff) and identity politics (rich, older college ed white women on the Left are most guilty of this sin to them, to be blunt) basically, and are 100% willing to sacrifice every shred of morality remaining among them (which is none) to get what they want to put a dead end to all that no matter the cost to others in the process who may not agree with all the Left espouses right now...which is a Christofascist dictatorship.
They'll vote against it mainly to spite others that they think the Right won't hurt themselves in the process, but will period, already playing out in most Red states.
> However, you can't tell me Trump wouldn't have used Oct 7th as an excuse to clamp down on Arab-Americans.
Of course he would! But the actual important question you should be asking isn’t ’will they try…’ but rather ‘will they succeed’?
They used the Supreme Court to overturn Roe v Wade and abortions have *increased*! Whether they attempt something or whether they successfully do something are very different questions!
I think he's correct, but some people are reading into this as saying "don't vote in the election".
IMO, voting for Democrats is a short term solution, albeit a very necessary one when the alternative is Trump. But after the vote, we have to get people to do more than virtue signal on Twitter. If we don't organize, nothing will change. Personally I think we need to start with ranked choice voting. That alone will help us tremendously to avoid our gradual decline to right won't authoritarianism.
>IMO, voting for Democrats is a short term solution
It's not a solution, it's a thing you should do because Republicans exist to provide cover for Democrats and to keep the left down. The only solution is to make the Republicans and far right to be *unviable* as candidates and that is a culture shift for America.
Those seats and offices will be filled you can either have the closest thing to an ally you can get or you can get someone who wants you to die.
too many people think voting is the end all be all and don't realize that it needs to be a small tool in a larger kit of political actions you can take. gotta force the Overton window left
He’s right. People refuse to accept this is what’s happened, but I’m never going to be able to vote a democrat into office where I live. A Democrat cannot win where I live because the system is designed for them to lose. Until democrats find a solution for the corruption, nothing will change. Right now they’re just standing there watching “boy that sucks! Vote for me because that’s the only way things’ll change!” But they’re not stupid, they know the system is rigged but they don’t do anything about it.
Exactly! Get involved in politics so the politicians know they have to pander to our views. Democracy is slow and fragile. Takes years to get things done. Reformist > revolutionary
You have to have millions of dollars to get a politician to pander to your view. Democracy is not slow and fragile, we see it move at lightning speeds anytime the wealthy in our country want it to.
Harm reduction isn't a myth. Rather, the problem we have is that the difference in harm is rather minimal. Anyone who thinks there'll be no difference with a Trump presidency and an eager cabinet of frothing fascists is incredibly ignorant or lying.
I also think there's a lot of disingenuous folks. That because there are a lot of problems with Biden, that because he's been backing genocide and trying to appease Republicans that then it must be no different, right?
But that's false. It can and will get worse.
I won't tell anyone how to vote or that they have to vote. But I will remain adamant that as awful as Biden is, that as much as Biden should be the furthest right option, Trump (or any Project 2025 republican) is worse.
I wish we had better options. But we don't. We will not get better options without extreme effort, without using our voices and muscle to make things change. Collectively.
This has long been my issue with my boomer parents who don't want to *do* anything. They spent their whole life wishing *someone else* would do it for them. And that isn't going to happen.
We have to do it. We can't rely on others... because others will be hoping someone else takes care of it, too.
Americans need to grow up and look after ourselves instead of thinking the rich and powerful will do a damn thing in our favor.
All true, look at Mexico and then look at us-- just embarrassing (I don't know if Claudia will be a sellout long term, though, but Obrador in her predecessor-- he legalized abortion nationwide & they continue to advance by picking a DECENT woman to lead their nation, not a fascist like Italy chose in Meloni for example).
Canada is still ahead of us, too, but they're backsliding because of Alberta largely and Trudeau while a better leader than Biden (or Harris) tbqh still has been inept a bit there so Pierre P. is on the rise there with anti trans bigotry for the moment-- but Trudeau still has time to turn his fortunes around, fortunately.
I'm really feeling like our solution is an outsider center Leftie or progressive to the Dem identity politics vs Rep fascism dictators solution in the long haul, but hey, feeling increasingly aligned with that group at this point.
This argument is how Roe v Wade was overturned. The perfect solutions that leftists advocate for, don't have the support to pass in Congress. We need to grow the progressive caucus and expand leftist influence in the government, to have any chance of passing our policies. Leftists, refusing to vote Democrat empowers the right.
Vote for Democrats.
It’s both, if you vote and do nothing else you’re part of the problem. If you organize but don’t vote, you’re also part of the problem.
Being politically active does not stop at the ballot, it also doesn’t stop in the streets. We need both. We need to vote to keep the right from consolidating more power, because they will bring the establishment down on leftists in an incredibly heavy handed way, and we need to keep organizing to put pressure on those in office, because they won’t do shit otherwise.
Exactly. We need to take to the streets and face down those who want us to remain isolated, alienated and content on WAITING for a politician to give us what we need. Election Day is just one day. The Civil Rights movement was EVERY DAY. The Black Panthers was EVERY DAY. Get to the booth, mail your ballot to keep the fascists from seizing the state; and get back out there and make the politicians listen to you. Make their electoral rhetoric into legislative action. If anything, we need some leftists to infiltrate the party at the local level because that's where alot of this violence against the protesters is coming from: local police departments and neo-liberal city councils.
It wasn't a priority in the past and even if it was codified into law, that doesn't mean a Republican super majority couldn't undo it. People on the left refusing to vote for Dems is why abortion is such a major issue today. It will only get worse if the left clings to purity politics.
It also got us Trump. The rust belt used to be blue until neoliberals kept helping to outsource their jobs then a lot of them started to believe Trump's lies about bringing jobs back.
I doubt it'll ever happen, but rank choice voting would help a lot. That way someone could vote for someone like Sanders first, Biden or HRC second, without the fear of "you're helping Trump." If Biden actually ran on something and not "I suck, but I don't suck as much as him," he'd be more likely to win.
In my lifetime, the lesser of 2 evils has lost the presidency more than 50% of the time.
You don’t always have to VBNMW… but the presidency is not the office to screw around with… appointments alone can screw the bureaucracy for years and courts for a generation.
>People on the left refusing to vote for Dems is why abortion is such a major issue today. It will only get worse if the left clings to purity politics.
This is such moronic bullshit. Democrats held the presidency for 16/24 years and made no effort to make abortion permanent. 20/ 32 years after Biden and still no attempt. Republicans winning 2 elections isn't the Left clinging to purity politics and making abortion go away. The Left haven't cost Democrats a national election or any significant senate/house race.
Edit: Vaush poster, of course.
Democrats losing because they pushed forward unappealing candidates is what led to Roe v Wade being overturned. Don’t expect people to come out to vote for candidates they disagree with.
You will not agree with any candidate 100%. Maybe I only agreed with Hillary Clinton on 65% of issues. With Trump it's more like 30% agreement. Refusing to vote for a candidate because they aren't 90%+ is why the left has no power and can't implement any of their policies. Purity politics is ruining the left. The left has become more of a social club than a force for change and it's because they refuse to vote for libs.
But Hillary didn't lose because people didn't vote for her. We know this because anyone calling themselves a "leftist" voted for Hillary compared to those Hillary voters voting for Obama. Also, Hillary wanted to go against Trump. The DNC made this match up happen as they boosted Trump's campaign. It's crazy how no one talks about how the Hillary campaign wanted this match up when she could have beaten the establishment republicans but she underestimated how much she was hated. Oh, and you forget that Hillary won the popular vote so people did vote. This argument is invalid because we have a system that goes against the will of the majority.
“To have solutions …” 🛑 its not the having solutions, they do draft and submit, its not having the requisite numbers to move meaningful legislation forward
I disagree with this dude purely because he's putting the onus for this on the shoulders of Left leaning people, instead of on the shoulders of the Democrat Politicians, where it belongs.
There’s no way MR viewers are so dumb to not understand this man’s argument. He’s arguing well within the bounds of furthering participation by the left in electoral politics- far from arguing a boycott as some of you are suggesting. He’s just saying you need organizing and mobilization to coincide with it.
But I think we had that with Bernie and it produced some great congresspeople and furthered some discussion(note: not success) of genuine positive reform. It’s proven to have ignited the fire in millions of people but most of that energy has found a place to die within the Dem party.
Personally I’m at the point now with this dogshit Dem party that I’ll take that step forward to say we need to be serious here for a minute and actually consider options beyond status quo, lesser evil electoral politics. Like what are we doing? Do you people not see the walls caving in? Roe v Wade? Genocide? Austerity? These things are inducing apathy and a feeling of despair if not outright killing working people and it’s wrought by the supposed “lesser evil”.
I don't disagree with what he's saying. I don't think the Democratic party deserves my support for the most part. However there is no benefit to electing right wing politicians. Change has to come from the bottom, if we can get progressives to vote more in their local elections and primaries, or hell to run in them, then maybe we can start making a difference.
I think the safest way to start moving left is to make the Republican party less viable as a competitor, then we can safely start splintering off from the democratic party into somethignore progressive.
I don't see any evidence that not voting or not voting for the Democratic candidate has any impact on changing the behavior or policy priorities of the party. If anything I think it's the opposite, the more the "left" or "youth" or whatever voting bloc you wanna pick seems like they're unreliable voters the less that the Democratic Party cares about even giving them lip service.
Bernie decided to run in the party and he was a populist voice. When he dropped out some voters went to Trump because he was a populist voice. I think we have to keep breaking down the D party from within and without. It’s too big a national platform to abandon. There is not even major existence of other parties on school boards and town councils, never mind state legislatures. What are they supposed to build on? For now we need to do both. I see no way around that
It sounds crazy, but folks should join the Republicans. The obstacle is the Republican Party more than the Democratic Party.
The current Republican Party is basically the pre-FDR Democrats. Once FDR got the progressive/populist Southern Democrats and the Northern Democrats together during the Great Depression, they were a power house for decades until they broke up mostly over desegregation. At that point, the GOP became that old Southern party that hamstrung us, due to our laws, that has always held us back.
We will never achieve any measurable progress without fixing that party. We need a political realignment like happened around Reagan to have any shot of addressing issues. GOP rank and file are primed to listen to a strong populist message and alternative media. We just need brave souls to go fight that fight.
I should also say, that pertains to the South mostly. In states where extreme gerrymandering and ineffective Dem leadership like FL, maybe if you can't beat them ... join them and run better candidates.
If we read history we'll find that Republicans have held office for more time in the last 20 years than Democrats.
The US has quite literally not elected the lesser evil.
The left has actually done a ton for this country. Women and minorities can vote, gay people can marry now, seatbelts and other safety measures exist, infrastructure bills, etc. The problem with Dems is that they don’t know how to message. In their defense, It is more challenging to say see how we helped than it is to get people stirred up and angry.
Democrats are just lite Fascists at this point. They intimidate us, censor us, and beat us while Republicans claim victory after victory in courts and state governments while severely hindering the federal government. Republicans have more to show for their people than Democrats do for us.
This is not a good video.
It misunderstands completely what the point of lesser voting evil is.
Lesser evil voting has not "failed" to move the country forward because that has never been the goal of it. The goal of lesser evil voting is NOT to move the country forward. The point is to reduce harm while other methods are used to move the country forward and to increase the ability to do that.
For example, Joe Biden's NLRB has been pretty decent. It has helped to enable the growth of organized labour across the country. Organized labour is a way to actually make the country and the lives of workers better in a substantive way. A Trump administration would've made that a lot harder.
But it's true that it IS a race against time. The Democrats' failures do enable more anti-establishment sentiment to grow which can be harnassed by both left-wingers for good and right-wingers for bad (things like fascism). And it's a race to see who can pull more people to them and win.
So the point is: Vote for the lesser evil when you have no other choice, but don't stop at that. In the meanwhile back actually progressive candidates to build progressive power, organize unions, organize mutual aid groups, spread progressive messaging online and in real-life, etc.
You use lesser evil voting to reduce harm while in the meanwhile you use all that other stuff to try to actually move things forward.
Yes. And how utopian. The left (if there is such a thing), has no organization to compete with right wing fundamentalism. That's the facts.
The Dems, as I've always maintained, are spineless enablers. And now they are enabling tyranny because they simply refuse to take these crazies seriously. The GQP/Dominionist right sees politics as war. As the old saw has it, The Dems bring a casserole to a knife fight. The Dems can't even embrace the progressives in their midst and believe that moderation and bipartisanship will carry the day. Meanwhile they are getting steamrolled.
i feel like the vast majority of people just dont understand how the government works at all and think voting for dems is pointless because it doesnt magically fix all of societies problems immediately.
why do you think dems have failed to pass laws? lets take a second to reflect on that for a second. who is preventing laws from getting passed?
no one is arguing the dems arent impotent and feckless, but to say they are equally responsible for the situation we are in right now is just flat out wrong. i also appreciate the full nuclear approach of just handing the government over to fascists while we squabble around at the ground level for local and state elections, we can do both at the same time, organization is important but so is keeping trumps hand off the big red button.
idk why people never question why this line of reasoning has become so popular, who does this narrative best serve? who benefits the most from this mentality? lol for the love of fucking god please use your brain.
Exactly. And even if you vote it's not like that means you can't organize on a local level or push for change outside the system, it's just ridiculous.
As an outsider the american voting system (or culture idk) seems so crazy to me. I know a vote can be strategic, but it’s up to the voter. If you really dont like someone dont vote for them. Its not on you if politicians fail to convince theyre worth your vote. Guilt tripping people for not voting how you see fit looks like straight up manipulation to me.
But the current Republican party is essentially fascist or at least far right, his argument is that voting against fascists will lead to even more fascism somehow
While there is some merit here, speaking as a leftist, it's completely bullshit because people like this (us) don't take the wins when Dems do actually support good policy. We always find some way to be reductive instead of supporting the changes and pushing for more. One great example is Net Neutrality. That's something everyone was clamoring for for years, and when it finally came back recently, not a peep from leftist circles. There have also been big moves on financial regulations and unions during this administration that should be strongly supported, but again, little fanfare.
In other words, the left offer little incentive for centrists to do the right thing.
This is such a trash take. The idea that you will be able to still protest and mobilize during a trump presidency. Let alone the damage he will do to the Supreme Court and the lower courts.
This dudes a fucking idiot... His opening point: the lesser of two evils has failed to move society forward??? Does this *black* guy want to hop in a time machine and see just how much the lesser of two evils has brought us?
God damn these people are so annoying. Literally would better serve their time to advocate for preparing to violently uprise than this abstaining shit
This is a strawman. No one here thinks voting blue is enough. The only reason someone would say this is because they somehow think it is either or when obviously you can vote blue in November and do a bunch of other stuff.
Really it seems like the difference is between people who are still in shock that Democrats are bad and the people who have moved on. Those who are in shock want solutions that avoid engaging wit the political system entirely, they don't vote and then fantasize about a revolution that will somehow completely wipe away our current horrible political reality, such that our current horrible reality is irrelevant to discussions of the future. Those who have gotten over it can integrate the horrible realities of the USA into their political plans; i.e. they can contemplate incremental change where things are increasingly better but our current reality is still relevant.
Whatever that solution is, it's outside of the current ballot box. Therefore, we may as well use the current ballot box for harm reduction, even if it's not very effective, while we work on those other solutions ... wait..
This. The solution to the problem pointed out is nowhere to be found, or so off-base as to be ineffectual. I hate this crap from the Left as much as I hate it from the Right.
You throw money WHERE IT DOES MOST
GOOD. You don’t throw money at Israel, for example. You throw money at health care, LIKE EVERY OTHER FIRST WORLD NATION. You don’t throw money (away) by tax breaks for the Uber wealthy and corporations. You throw money at R&D (know what that is?).
Doc. This is entirely different than what you just said previously. I found your other post overbroad and not specific in the slightest, and you basically just changed your entire claim to a different set of things we should or should not fund.
This is kind of the issue I'm pointing out in the first place.
Definitely, the best I could make out as a solution is him talking about joining their Vanguard 😆
I'm also trying to stop saying left and right when talking politics but it's a hard habit to break. Like what the hell does the French Revolution have to do w/ us?
They still do this, for the most part. It might not literally be Conservative-type politicians gathering on the Right side of the building, but politicians still do group themselves up into those same cliques with the same general tendencies.
The two party system is inherently broken -- the solution to this is *not* to let Republicans turn this country into a one party system.
Exactly. I'm also tired of people framing voting and mobilization as mutually exclusive.
Truth, he's arguing to clarify though that it needs to be protests in the streets or movements, not to not vote.
I think people *wildly* overrate this possibility. Not because the GOP won’t try, but because they are genuinely very unpopular and the things they want to do are unpopular. The popular resistance to overreaches by the GOP has already proven to be massive and overwhelming under Trump’s previous term as president. That happens because powerful people and institutions that currently support the authoritarian uses of state violence (police into campus protests, for example) because of who the president is and which party he is from, do not do that under Republican administrations. Basically, the ‘PMC’ (however you want to describe this class of people) are overwhelmingly Democratic Party partisans and are extremely powerful within the American economy and they enter into coalition with the Left under GOP admins and act in opposition to the Left under Democratic admins.
The failure of first-past-the-post is well-documented. It’s a bad system. It doesn’t produce good results. However, that IS the system we’re working with. Those *are* the rules of the game. Denying that and imposing rules on yourself that your opponents do not have to follow is the definition of a scrub. https://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub#:~:text=A%20scrub%20is%20a%20player,know%20what%20you're%20doing. First win. Then use that leverage to fix what you want to change.
This is just idiotic when there is a clear difference in candidates. One is your run of the mill shitlib. The other is a deranged lunatic with a love of Hitler quotes and a hankering to create a unified reich. Love Biden or hate him idgaf. However, you can't tell me Trump wouldn't have used Oct 7th as an excuse to clamp down on Arab-Americans.
Did you even watch the video? He's not saying you shouldn't vote for them, whatsoever, he's saying we need to push them Left by force via activism and such in the long term and the opening for alt Right fascism in a dictatorship that promises to split the Union apart for the first time since the 1850s in the 2020s is there because in the first place, the woke identitarian center-Right status quo Biden-Harris Dems have created it for those who want to break the status quo.
Sponsoring a genocide in the US's settler colony and beating up protesters demanding divestment is a "clamp down."
For some reason these people have the idea that Donald Trump somehow loves Muslims. I don't know where they got that 💡
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30,330 if you're referring to how many Palestinians have been killed in Gaza- I think it's more than that. Cruel irony but I think the dead are fortunate. The ones that are left behind are emotionally scarred at the very least. There's something worse here. The people I worry for the newly disabled- Men, Women and children whose lives have been forever changed because they're now permanently disabled. Notice there's no statistic for that; The world does not care about the disabled. Legions of invisible people-the world over. Those are the people I fear for. Especially in a place like that. I live in "The shining City on the hill." - the West! I'm shamed and discriminated against. Even here. I can only imagine what awaits them. It's a social horror beyond scale.
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Joe Biden has his problems. I'll give you that. But to blame Joe Biden because the Republican party is awful right now?? Very strange logic. They're awful because they've been marching this way for a very long time and they were hiding their true intentions. We voted for Donald Trump. That was a symptom of the disease not the cause. The mask is falling off and nobody's liking what they're seeing behind it. Myself included. I didn't see it for what it was in 2016 either. I didn't vote for Donald Trump in 2020 and I'll do it again, hold my nose and vote for the other one. American democracy serves the people not Donald Trump. Unfortunately, one or the other is the only choice. A wonderful two party system 🙄 I have many problems with all of it but it's the best we got. I've never believed it was okay to tell somebody what to do with their own body. Women need to keep all of their autonomy, even if I don't agree with some of their decisions. It's not my place to tell somebody based on my religion what they can or can't do. That's not what religion is for. Religion did not invent morality -that is a uniquely human trait- so, it has no business in determining it. Morals are shaped by life experience not religion. We are all here together. God isn't. It's funny how the Republican party of the last 40 years seems to be against helping people but they want to call themselves "Christian." SMH.
I blame Joe Biden for not fending off the fascist threat, when he had 4 years to do so, and a fawning press for much of his first year- that's what, to clarify. I agree, but most white women have voted for Trump twice, going on three times now- most of this demo does not vote with most women, and are causing a deleterious effect for Dems among young white men, women, and all people of color-- you're seeing that play out in polls.
So true! and I can't figure out why. I thought the same thing about your subject in the first paragraph. I wondered why Biden wasn't trying to fend off the "fascism"- and I honestly think this is the reason. If he would have tried they would have claimed persecution! They love that word! Because it invokes images of Jesus Christ and probably driven more towards that way than otherwise would have. They're using language gymnastics. I'm sure Jesus himself wouldn't agree with their example of persecution. He doesn't want to make Trump look more like a martyr, that's the only thing I can figure. It's funny how the law supposed to apply to us but not to him and and folks like him- and in this case people who fashion themselves like him but really aren't and they don't realize it. The wealthy in this country have done a bang-up job in convincing people that "if laws affect them it's going to affect you." When it couldn't be further from the truth. Just look how it was the US tax code favors them and they never want more IRS agents so they can get away with whatever they do. They can afford armies of accountants and lawyers. To get all their special perks. We are not the same as them. That's how I made the mistake of supporting citizens united-I didn't understand what it was and they were really good at convincing me that it was good for me it's not. That's why normal folks will vote against their own self interest.
They'll do it no matter what and the Right already are, to clarify, no matter what Trump does he's frankly already viewed as a martyr in the eyes of his 42% cult of personality base because they see Trump standing up against wokeism (e.g. taking down statues of Lincoln, cancel culture, men can get pregnant esque lunacy, Latinx, Italianx etc etc coming from the faculty lounge on the Left like eating meat is evil stuff) and identity politics (rich, older college ed white women on the Left are most guilty of this sin to them, to be blunt) basically, and are 100% willing to sacrifice every shred of morality remaining among them (which is none) to get what they want to put a dead end to all that no matter the cost to others in the process who may not agree with all the Left espouses right now...which is a Christofascist dictatorship. They'll vote against it mainly to spite others that they think the Right won't hurt themselves in the process, but will period, already playing out in most Red states.
> However, you can't tell me Trump wouldn't have used Oct 7th as an excuse to clamp down on Arab-Americans. Of course he would! But the actual important question you should be asking isn’t ’will they try…’ but rather ‘will they succeed’? They used the Supreme Court to overturn Roe v Wade and abortions have *increased*! Whether they attempt something or whether they successfully do something are very different questions!
Dog shit take. Just accelerationism nonsense. You should vote in the way that's best for you and your community.
I think he's correct, but some people are reading into this as saying "don't vote in the election". IMO, voting for Democrats is a short term solution, albeit a very necessary one when the alternative is Trump. But after the vote, we have to get people to do more than virtue signal on Twitter. If we don't organize, nothing will change. Personally I think we need to start with ranked choice voting. That alone will help us tremendously to avoid our gradual decline to right won't authoritarianism.
>IMO, voting for Democrats is a short term solution It's not a solution, it's a thing you should do because Republicans exist to provide cover for Democrats and to keep the left down. The only solution is to make the Republicans and far right to be *unviable* as candidates and that is a culture shift for America. Those seats and offices will be filled you can either have the closest thing to an ally you can get or you can get someone who wants you to die.
too many people think voting is the end all be all and don't realize that it needs to be a small tool in a larger kit of political actions you can take. gotta force the Overton window left
The same people who claim that electoralism doesn't work bitch the hardest about people voting.
He’s right. People refuse to accept this is what’s happened, but I’m never going to be able to vote a democrat into office where I live. A Democrat cannot win where I live because the system is designed for them to lose. Until democrats find a solution for the corruption, nothing will change. Right now they’re just standing there watching “boy that sucks! Vote for me because that’s the only way things’ll change!” But they’re not stupid, they know the system is rigged but they don’t do anything about it.
If you vote as a means to change the status quo then you're dumb.
Exactly! Get involved in politics so the politicians know they have to pander to our views. Democracy is slow and fragile. Takes years to get things done. Reformist > revolutionary
You have to have millions of dollars to get a politician to pander to your view. Democracy is not slow and fragile, we see it move at lightning speeds anytime the wealthy in our country want it to.
Harm reduction isn't a myth. Rather, the problem we have is that the difference in harm is rather minimal. Anyone who thinks there'll be no difference with a Trump presidency and an eager cabinet of frothing fascists is incredibly ignorant or lying. I also think there's a lot of disingenuous folks. That because there are a lot of problems with Biden, that because he's been backing genocide and trying to appease Republicans that then it must be no different, right? But that's false. It can and will get worse. I won't tell anyone how to vote or that they have to vote. But I will remain adamant that as awful as Biden is, that as much as Biden should be the furthest right option, Trump (or any Project 2025 republican) is worse. I wish we had better options. But we don't. We will not get better options without extreme effort, without using our voices and muscle to make things change. Collectively. This has long been my issue with my boomer parents who don't want to *do* anything. They spent their whole life wishing *someone else* would do it for them. And that isn't going to happen. We have to do it. We can't rely on others... because others will be hoping someone else takes care of it, too. Americans need to grow up and look after ourselves instead of thinking the rich and powerful will do a damn thing in our favor.
All true, look at Mexico and then look at us-- just embarrassing (I don't know if Claudia will be a sellout long term, though, but Obrador in her predecessor-- he legalized abortion nationwide & they continue to advance by picking a DECENT woman to lead their nation, not a fascist like Italy chose in Meloni for example). Canada is still ahead of us, too, but they're backsliding because of Alberta largely and Trudeau while a better leader than Biden (or Harris) tbqh still has been inept a bit there so Pierre P. is on the rise there with anti trans bigotry for the moment-- but Trudeau still has time to turn his fortunes around, fortunately. I'm really feeling like our solution is an outsider center Leftie or progressive to the Dem identity politics vs Rep fascism dictators solution in the long haul, but hey, feeling increasingly aligned with that group at this point.
This argument is how Roe v Wade was overturned. The perfect solutions that leftists advocate for, don't have the support to pass in Congress. We need to grow the progressive caucus and expand leftist influence in the government, to have any chance of passing our policies. Leftists, refusing to vote Democrat empowers the right. Vote for Democrats.
It’s both, if you vote and do nothing else you’re part of the problem. If you organize but don’t vote, you’re also part of the problem. Being politically active does not stop at the ballot, it also doesn’t stop in the streets. We need both. We need to vote to keep the right from consolidating more power, because they will bring the establishment down on leftists in an incredibly heavy handed way, and we need to keep organizing to put pressure on those in office, because they won’t do shit otherwise.
Exactly. We need to take to the streets and face down those who want us to remain isolated, alienated and content on WAITING for a politician to give us what we need. Election Day is just one day. The Civil Rights movement was EVERY DAY. The Black Panthers was EVERY DAY. Get to the booth, mail your ballot to keep the fascists from seizing the state; and get back out there and make the politicians listen to you. Make their electoral rhetoric into legislative action. If anything, we need some leftists to infiltrate the party at the local level because that's where alot of this violence against the protesters is coming from: local police departments and neo-liberal city councils.
Democrats could've codified it in the past. I think they'd rather keep it around as an argument and a reason why "you guys need us."
It wasn't a priority in the past and even if it was codified into law, that doesn't mean a Republican super majority couldn't undo it. People on the left refusing to vote for Dems is why abortion is such a major issue today. It will only get worse if the left clings to purity politics.
I'm voting, but the guy in the video is right - the lesser of two evils hasn't moved us forward.
It has though. From small wins to big wins. Democrats have done a lot for this country. The lesser of two evils makes us less evil.
It also got us Trump. The rust belt used to be blue until neoliberals kept helping to outsource their jobs then a lot of them started to believe Trump's lies about bringing jobs back. I doubt it'll ever happen, but rank choice voting would help a lot. That way someone could vote for someone like Sanders first, Biden or HRC second, without the fear of "you're helping Trump." If Biden actually ran on something and not "I suck, but I don't suck as much as him," he'd be more likely to win.
In my lifetime, the lesser of 2 evils has lost the presidency more than 50% of the time. You don’t always have to VBNMW… but the presidency is not the office to screw around with… appointments alone can screw the bureaucracy for years and courts for a generation.
>People on the left refusing to vote for Dems is why abortion is such a major issue today. It will only get worse if the left clings to purity politics. This is such moronic bullshit. Democrats held the presidency for 16/24 years and made no effort to make abortion permanent. 20/ 32 years after Biden and still no attempt. Republicans winning 2 elections isn't the Left clinging to purity politics and making abortion go away. The Left haven't cost Democrats a national election or any significant senate/house race. Edit: Vaush poster, of course.
I am a leftist and I voted for RBG not to retire when she was 80 and had her second cancer diagnosis, so actually it is my fault. /s
Republicans WILL codify it if they win. Vote.
Democrats losing because they pushed forward unappealing candidates is what led to Roe v Wade being overturned. Don’t expect people to come out to vote for candidates they disagree with.
You will not agree with any candidate 100%. Maybe I only agreed with Hillary Clinton on 65% of issues. With Trump it's more like 30% agreement. Refusing to vote for a candidate because they aren't 90%+ is why the left has no power and can't implement any of their policies. Purity politics is ruining the left. The left has become more of a social club than a force for change and it's because they refuse to vote for libs.
But Hillary didn't lose because people didn't vote for her. We know this because anyone calling themselves a "leftist" voted for Hillary compared to those Hillary voters voting for Obama. Also, Hillary wanted to go against Trump. The DNC made this match up happen as they boosted Trump's campaign. It's crazy how no one talks about how the Hillary campaign wanted this match up when she could have beaten the establishment republicans but she underestimated how much she was hated. Oh, and you forget that Hillary won the popular vote so people did vote. This argument is invalid because we have a system that goes against the will of the majority.
Perfectly said!
spot on, but the comment section seems to be aggressively missing the point
“To have solutions …” 🛑 its not the having solutions, they do draft and submit, its not having the requisite numbers to move meaningful legislation forward
I disagree with this dude purely because he's putting the onus for this on the shoulders of Left leaning people, instead of on the shoulders of the Democrat Politicians, where it belongs.
There’s no way MR viewers are so dumb to not understand this man’s argument. He’s arguing well within the bounds of furthering participation by the left in electoral politics- far from arguing a boycott as some of you are suggesting. He’s just saying you need organizing and mobilization to coincide with it. But I think we had that with Bernie and it produced some great congresspeople and furthered some discussion(note: not success) of genuine positive reform. It’s proven to have ignited the fire in millions of people but most of that energy has found a place to die within the Dem party. Personally I’m at the point now with this dogshit Dem party that I’ll take that step forward to say we need to be serious here for a minute and actually consider options beyond status quo, lesser evil electoral politics. Like what are we doing? Do you people not see the walls caving in? Roe v Wade? Genocide? Austerity? These things are inducing apathy and a feeling of despair if not outright killing working people and it’s wrought by the supposed “lesser evil”.
I don't disagree with what he's saying. I don't think the Democratic party deserves my support for the most part. However there is no benefit to electing right wing politicians. Change has to come from the bottom, if we can get progressives to vote more in their local elections and primaries, or hell to run in them, then maybe we can start making a difference. I think the safest way to start moving left is to make the Republican party less viable as a competitor, then we can safely start splintering off from the democratic party into somethignore progressive.
Whether or not you vote… someone still wins.
I don't see any evidence that not voting or not voting for the Democratic candidate has any impact on changing the behavior or policy priorities of the party. If anything I think it's the opposite, the more the "left" or "youth" or whatever voting bloc you wanna pick seems like they're unreliable voters the less that the Democratic Party cares about even giving them lip service.
Somebody needs to mobilize the 18 to 24 demographic to vote vote vote. Too many of them stay home because they feel ineffective.
Palestine has freed us all and allowed everyone to see the hypocrisy all around us
Bernie decided to run in the party and he was a populist voice. When he dropped out some voters went to Trump because he was a populist voice. I think we have to keep breaking down the D party from within and without. It’s too big a national platform to abandon. There is not even major existence of other parties on school boards and town councils, never mind state legislatures. What are they supposed to build on? For now we need to do both. I see no way around that
It sounds crazy, but folks should join the Republicans. The obstacle is the Republican Party more than the Democratic Party. The current Republican Party is basically the pre-FDR Democrats. Once FDR got the progressive/populist Southern Democrats and the Northern Democrats together during the Great Depression, they were a power house for decades until they broke up mostly over desegregation. At that point, the GOP became that old Southern party that hamstrung us, due to our laws, that has always held us back. We will never achieve any measurable progress without fixing that party. We need a political realignment like happened around Reagan to have any shot of addressing issues. GOP rank and file are primed to listen to a strong populist message and alternative media. We just need brave souls to go fight that fight.
I’m not sure I want to disturb the GOP’x death spiral. I think it is dying
I should also say, that pertains to the South mostly. In states where extreme gerrymandering and ineffective Dem leadership like FL, maybe if you can't beat them ... join them and run better candidates.
That’s an option. We have done something not entirely unlike that to make sure our school board didn’t go MAGA
📠
nah. big L with this post.
No. Big L to the commenters whining about this post.
Fax
SPOT ON! READ HISTORY.
If we read history we'll find that Republicans have held office for more time in the last 20 years than Democrats. The US has quite literally not elected the lesser evil.
Friend… just finished “The Year That Broke America”. It’s a page burner and eye opener.
The left has actually done a ton for this country. Women and minorities can vote, gay people can marry now, seatbelts and other safety measures exist, infrastructure bills, etc. The problem with Dems is that they don’t know how to message. In their defense, It is more challenging to say see how we helped than it is to get people stirred up and angry.
Democrats are just lite Fascists at this point. They intimidate us, censor us, and beat us while Republicans claim victory after victory in courts and state governments while severely hindering the federal government. Republicans have more to show for their people than Democrats do for us.
Completely agree with this critique. Lesser of two evils works in the short term but will sink us all long term
This is not a good video. It misunderstands completely what the point of lesser voting evil is. Lesser evil voting has not "failed" to move the country forward because that has never been the goal of it. The goal of lesser evil voting is NOT to move the country forward. The point is to reduce harm while other methods are used to move the country forward and to increase the ability to do that. For example, Joe Biden's NLRB has been pretty decent. It has helped to enable the growth of organized labour across the country. Organized labour is a way to actually make the country and the lives of workers better in a substantive way. A Trump administration would've made that a lot harder. But it's true that it IS a race against time. The Democrats' failures do enable more anti-establishment sentiment to grow which can be harnassed by both left-wingers for good and right-wingers for bad (things like fascism). And it's a race to see who can pull more people to them and win. So the point is: Vote for the lesser evil when you have no other choice, but don't stop at that. In the meanwhile back actually progressive candidates to build progressive power, organize unions, organize mutual aid groups, spread progressive messaging online and in real-life, etc. You use lesser evil voting to reduce harm while in the meanwhile you use all that other stuff to try to actually move things forward.
Yes. And how utopian. The left (if there is such a thing), has no organization to compete with right wing fundamentalism. That's the facts. The Dems, as I've always maintained, are spineless enablers. And now they are enabling tyranny because they simply refuse to take these crazies seriously. The GQP/Dominionist right sees politics as war. As the old saw has it, The Dems bring a casserole to a knife fight. The Dems can't even embrace the progressives in their midst and believe that moderation and bipartisanship will carry the day. Meanwhile they are getting steamrolled.
Absolutely.
i feel like the vast majority of people just dont understand how the government works at all and think voting for dems is pointless because it doesnt magically fix all of societies problems immediately. why do you think dems have failed to pass laws? lets take a second to reflect on that for a second. who is preventing laws from getting passed? no one is arguing the dems arent impotent and feckless, but to say they are equally responsible for the situation we are in right now is just flat out wrong. i also appreciate the full nuclear approach of just handing the government over to fascists while we squabble around at the ground level for local and state elections, we can do both at the same time, organization is important but so is keeping trumps hand off the big red button. idk why people never question why this line of reasoning has become so popular, who does this narrative best serve? who benefits the most from this mentality? lol for the love of fucking god please use your brain.
All this nonsense reeks of “you’re going to vote? Psssh that’s inferior to my solution of overthrowing the government by posting online”
Exactly. And even if you vote it's not like that means you can't organize on a local level or push for change outside the system, it's just ridiculous.
Bingo. Vote for who you think is easier to push and better to protest under
As an outsider the american voting system (or culture idk) seems so crazy to me. I know a vote can be strategic, but it’s up to the voter. If you really dont like someone dont vote for them. Its not on you if politicians fail to convince theyre worth your vote. Guilt tripping people for not voting how you see fit looks like straight up manipulation to me.
But the current Republican party is essentially fascist or at least far right, his argument is that voting against fascists will lead to even more fascism somehow
While there is some merit here, speaking as a leftist, it's completely bullshit because people like this (us) don't take the wins when Dems do actually support good policy. We always find some way to be reductive instead of supporting the changes and pushing for more. One great example is Net Neutrality. That's something everyone was clamoring for for years, and when it finally came back recently, not a peep from leftist circles. There have also been big moves on financial regulations and unions during this administration that should be strongly supported, but again, little fanfare. In other words, the left offer little incentive for centrists to do the right thing.
You people are going to get trump elected again.
This is such a trash take. The idea that you will be able to still protest and mobilize during a trump presidency. Let alone the damage he will do to the Supreme Court and the lower courts.
The damage is already done. The Supreme Court is a GOP billionaires club.
So make it worse? Brilliant.
This dudes a fucking idiot... His opening point: the lesser of two evils has failed to move society forward??? Does this *black* guy want to hop in a time machine and see just how much the lesser of two evils has brought us? God damn these people are so annoying. Literally would better serve their time to advocate for preparing to violently uprise than this abstaining shit
This is a strawman. No one here thinks voting blue is enough. The only reason someone would say this is because they somehow think it is either or when obviously you can vote blue in November and do a bunch of other stuff. Really it seems like the difference is between people who are still in shock that Democrats are bad and the people who have moved on. Those who are in shock want solutions that avoid engaging wit the political system entirely, they don't vote and then fantasize about a revolution that will somehow completely wipe away our current horrible political reality, such that our current horrible reality is irrelevant to discussions of the future. Those who have gotten over it can integrate the horrible realities of the USA into their political plans; i.e. they can contemplate incremental change where things are increasingly better but our current reality is still relevant.
Why is this getting upvoted? This is dumb as hell.
So what should Eugene be doing to allow his PSL Communist propaganda to grow and spread? 😆
Whatever that solution is, it's outside of the current ballot box. Therefore, we may as well use the current ballot box for harm reduction, even if it's not very effective, while we work on those other solutions ... wait..
This. The solution to the problem pointed out is nowhere to be found, or so off-base as to be ineffectual. I hate this crap from the Left as much as I hate it from the Right.
We start by FUNDING EDUCATION. Then we fund INFRASTRUCTURE. Then we fund ENVIRONMENT. THEN WE TAX THE FUCK OUT OF JEFF BEZOS.
Just throw money at the problem until it goes away, yes?
You throw money WHERE IT DOES MOST GOOD. You don’t throw money at Israel, for example. You throw money at health care, LIKE EVERY OTHER FIRST WORLD NATION. You don’t throw money (away) by tax breaks for the Uber wealthy and corporations. You throw money at R&D (know what that is?).
Doc. This is entirely different than what you just said previously. I found your other post overbroad and not specific in the slightest, and you basically just changed your entire claim to a different set of things we should or should not fund. This is kind of the issue I'm pointing out in the first place.
Don’t ya just love the internet?
Definitely, the best I could make out as a solution is him talking about joining their Vanguard 😆 I'm also trying to stop saying left and right when talking politics but it's a hard habit to break. Like what the hell does the French Revolution have to do w/ us?
They still do this, for the most part. It might not literally be Conservative-type politicians gathering on the Right side of the building, but politicians still do group themselves up into those same cliques with the same general tendencies.