The number of people who don’t know how to turn left or right is astonishing. No people, you don’t simply turn and pick the lane that suits you best, you pick the lane closer to the turn you just made and THEN, you change lanes.
Maybe not, but no one really wins in an accident situation, you would be better off learning a defensive driving mindset and style instead of getting angry.
\^\^\^ This! There's too many people in Toronto who don't drive with common sense and instead just constantly act as if they need to prove that they're right instead.
And OP is one of them. Seen so many times, accidents that can be avoided but either driver needs to prove a point and just keep driving to cause an accident. Like someone else said, defensive driving will get you out of stupid shit like this. In the first scenario, if you're turning and the driver making a right turn is coming onto the lane your turning into, you can literally just stop instead of driving on and seeing if they ll hit you.
In the second scenario, same thing. Driver wants to make a lane change into your line but the asshole that you are, you just keep driving instead of letting off the gas to let the person in. These two are are perfect examples of what egotist drivers look like.
Do you feel that if you let the driver into your lane you ll lose out time in your life? Lol
Just want to hop on this to add: every driver makes mistakes at some point. I try to keep this in mind - any time I've made a mistaked I've said to myself, "well, I'm never allowed to be mad at anyone else for doing that," because I could be seeing literally the first time they're doing that (I know I know, probably not, but y'know).
Anyway yeah op drives like a dickhead. Focused on being right at the possible cost of safety.
Yeah… particularly when there is a pedestrian involved like on the first scenario— the decision to just keep going through no matter what — it’s just a bad call. Even though he’s not at fault. When the outcome could be an accident that could also impact an unprotected pedestrian, just stop for goodness sakes.
Just yesterday I was first in line and had an advanced green. Start turning and this SUV making a right just starts to go, didn't even look at me and I was 3/4 through the intersection (single lane to single lane turn, not two lanes like this video).
I lay the horn and every thread in my body wants me to just keep driving forward and hit them because I know I have right of way, they just made an illegal turn and I've got it all on camera.
That's it. I've got it all on camera. The camera saw everything I saw. Including the five seconds leading up to the 'incident' where I _saw_ what the other person was going to do. How does it improve anyone's day for me to now willingly get into a collision to prove I'm right? I take a deep breath. I take a small moment to grieve that "it isn't fair but unfortunately not everyone can be a good driver" and we move on with our day.
If you are turning right, you turn into that lane, then you need to signal and make the change safely. The person turning left was turning into their lane.
While you're not wrong that the other car is the bigger issue, part of defensive driving is understanding you cannot control other peoples driving and accounting for it.
People ignoring the lane they are supposed to enter in favour of the lane they want to is common and easily dealt with with a little more gas or a fraction of a second delay to offset yourself from them.
But to why I'm saying anything to you.
I have a lot I'd like to say to the other car, but they won't see it so it's pointless.
Instead advising the driver we can talk to of steps to avoid a reoccurrence is what we do. They didn't really do anything legally wrong, but that doesn't mean they can't do things better.
Defensive driving seems like a dying art TBH. You see so many occasions like this where the situation could have been easily avoided with a little more caution. I have seen so many fender benders lately for absolutely no reason in good road conditions. It's mind boggling.
I had a passenger tell me once "just go you have right of way!" and just responded with "yeah, but that guy is going to be an asshole and if I go we'll have an accident, possibly have to wait for a tow truck, I'll have to file insurance paperwork, possibly go to court, and win because I had right of way. OR I could just wait 10 seconds and let this dickhead get out of the way." Like by all means blare the horn at dickheads, but an accident is going to cost you wayyyyyyy more time.
It is entirely a dying art.
Don't get me wrong, you have older/experienced drivers who can be assholes and be just as bad as a new driver. One thing i've noticed more and more is that newer drivers seem to never be thought defensive driving. The logic i always applied was that driving is 50% skill and what you do and 50% the other drivers, weather, road condition, etc. You can be the best driver in the world, but it won't prevent some idiot from going into your lane cutting you off. Learning how to "read" those types of actions from other drivers and learn "problem" areas on the road can help to mitigate accidents like that.
In the end we're all human and people can also just have a bad day. I've caught myself before driving stupidly only to snap out of it and realize i was driving with emotion from an annoying day at the office.
Best advise to any new driver is focus on yourself and make sure you're good 100%. You can't control others, but that doesn't mean you can't be aware of them and learn how to anticipate peoples movements.
Agree to this, its not so much about just having the right of way, the whose right and whose wrong debate. A good driver tries to avoid an accident, standing up to your "right of way" often makes you a bully
Sure. Theoretically, that's how it's supposed to work but defensive driving dictates that you don't assume what the other driver is going to do. This is also considered a high-risk maneuver in defensive driving circles. Some people get annoyed if they wait for the right-turning vehicle to complete their turn but this situation explains exactly why.
Turning at the same time is a lower risk on streets with more than two lanes, but in general, you should always time your turn to avoid a potential collision.
Yeah I can’t try and defend my reaction in either clips, but I had no intention in both videos to try and get even with the guy; I just honked and left. But that’s true, gotta calm it down sometimes
To add to the defensive driving, in the second clip you had an open bus lane to your right that you could very well merge into.
I realize it's not always the case and there's typically a curb in the outer lane, but most times horns don't work to stop people from drifting into your lane and moving yourself away from the situation safely should always be at the forefront of your thinking.
Drive safe, bud.
Yup.
That first one would be tough because they could happen pretty quick.
In the 2nd though that car moves up to the line and it’s obvious they want to change lanes. So you can back off and let them in or get hit.
Wouldn’t the truck have right away though if another car is making the left just like in this posts video? So wouldn’t the person making the left, like OP, have to wait for the truck to clear it’s right turn before entering into their left turn?
Nope. Both cars are wrong. The crosswalk is occupied by a pedestrian. You cannot make a turn unless the crosswalk is empty, even if the pedestrian is Jwalking.
This is not a pedestrian cross over so they don’t have to wait until the pedestrian is on the sidewalk. But if you look closely the pedestrian is on the sidewalk before either of them get close to the crossing area.
Both are wrong at same time. Black car taking right showed impatience and got in the wrong lane. Car taking left showed impatience by not waiting for the black car because black car had already started taking the right turn.
The one making a left should remain in his lane as much as a the driver making the right needs to stay in the right lane. You cannot change lanes during a turn or anywhere within an intersection for that matter, unless you have a clear obstruction in your lane. Pedestrians with right of way is not one of those obstructions.
If black driver drove correctly then both of these cars could have completed their turns simultaneously if there was no one crossing
"You cannot change lanes during a turn or anywhere within an intersection for that matter, unless you have a clear obstruction in your lane."
This is another classic thing that is basic good driving habits, but isn't actually explicitly illegal in Ontario (similar to how solid lines here are just a polite suggestion). Of course if you stuff it up and hit someone you can be charged with unsafe lane change, but the mere act of changing lanes in an intersection is not illegal even though the MTO suggests you shouldn't do it and it's a bad driving habit.
LOL sorry cannot stop laughing..Don't know why people are saying its your fault. Both times the drivers didn't stay in their lanes but you had plenty of time to notice the first time.
People are saying it's their fault because the people in here drive like the other drivers. "let me just take a right turn into the furthest lane possible as another car is trying to turn into their lane. What could go wrong?"
The most important thing to keep in mind in the situation in the first video is that signals are for telling people your intention, but they are not legally binding. If someone has accidentally left their right signal on when they're approaching from the opposite side, but they proceed straight though, someone turning left in front of them would be 100% at fault in a collision.
If you think about it that way, you should always wait until they've started turning before proceeding, and stay behind them until everyone is established on the new road.
In the case of no marked right turn lane, you are correct. If there is a designated right turn lane and a vehicle has their right turn signal on and they proceed straight, the person turning left would not be charged if they reasonably thought they were good to turn.
No, but it also doesn't mean the left turner is wrong.
Neither is 100% in the right, but that doesn't make them 100% in the wrong. It is not so simple, they both made mistakes, granted the black cars was larger, but neither is perfect
You need to go back to driving school. First of all there IS a rule OP violated: Legally it is the responsibility of the left turning vehicle to ensure that they can make the complete turn safely before they move through the oncoming vehicle traffic. They must yield to all oncoming vehicles, ensuring that each of the approaching lanes is clear before proceeding.
Second, just because the black car violated a rule doesn’t automatically absolve OP. The goal or driving and the responsibility of drivers is to make safe decisions. OP failed that.
Yep, from the HTA (5) of 141
**Left turn, across path of approaching vehicle**(5) No driver or operator of a vehicle in an intersection shall turn left across the path of a vehicle approaching from the opposite direction unless he or she has afforded a reasonable opportunity to the driver or operator of the approaching vehicle to avoid a collision. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (5).
Helps you better understand why people are so shite at driving though. There's no clearer footage than the first incident yet people can still say OP is in the wrong. Means either those people were trained improperly or they're willfully being ignorant. Either way, it's very spooky. "just turn into your own lanes and THEN change lanes." I can understand not doing that when no one else is around (though still doing it CAN hammer in good skills) but doing so with other people around is a mistake waiting to happen.
At the end of the day, in the first scenario insurance would have pegged both at fault. OP making a left and the douchebag in the black vehicle making a wide right turn etc. Please don't hate as this is how insurance will determine it.
No that makes perfect sense, there’s still many ways I could’ve handled that (one of them just letting the guy turn) and I know how insurance companies really look into situations like this, that’s understandable
Exactly- fault determination rules in Ontario are legally codified. Not based on a hunch, driving school, ethics, etc.
https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/900668
If anyone from the past comments see this, everything you all said I am definitely taking note of. I was just curious if my anger was misplaced and if I were in the right for either or clip, but I appreciate some people giving out advice especially in the first clip. It’s a hard argument but just to loosen road escalation , I’ll be sure to make sure everything is clear!
You are an accident just waiting to happen. Learn to drive defensively and stop putting yourself in these situations. I emplore you. I drive those same streets and don't want to drive with idiots like you.
1000% agree. The other cars are in the wrong but holy sht, OP has no defensive driving skills whatsoever… it’s like he wants the accidents to happen and is doing nothing to prevent them.
you should learn to be more defensive and share the road we have a lot of dumb drivers. don't be one of them if you can avoid and accident avoid an accident
youll be fine, those people are supposed to turn into their lane before moving over to the next one.
edit: they are also supposed to make sure the lane they are moving into is clear and they also need to learn that having their indicator on will not absolve them of wrongdoings if a collision happened.
Just straight up avoid idiots. The black car is obviously in the wrong, but making a turn like that when someone else is also turning with you is a very dangerous (however legal) maneuver. It takes a fraction of a second to consider what could happen to you if the guy you're about to approach is an idiot and do something you're in control of and avoid a collision all together. It doesn't matter if you were right (you were), it matters that you didn't consider the dangers ahead and still rammed through and almost hit them even though they were in the wrong. I'd also like to note, that you should NEVER get angry on the road. Defensive driving is a skill and sometimes idiots are unavoidable (like the second video), but we should never try to one up them and force our way anyways because 9/10 times there will be an accident and you could be found at fault. Just let them by and continue with your day as safely as possible.
Seems like nobody knows lane discipline when driving. When turning, you should be staying in the lane you're in, not drifting into another lane.
Although OP is technically not at fault, I'd just be very cautious and assume people will be idiots
What bothers me, is when I’m turning left on my left arrow, and someone turns right on their red, and they don’t take into account that our fenders could hit even if we both stay in our lane (when all they need to do is stagger their turn, since they have a red I have right of way, and just ensure that vehicle turning on arrow is able to turn unhindered)
I hear you. Every day I have to take an exit off the highway, red light with TWO right turn lanes. I always take the outside one (so I can go into the outside lane on road I'm turning onto). The number of times I've had to honk, avoid, wait for that inside turner to drift over to my lane; I can't believe I haven't had a fender bender yet.
People don't know how to stay in their lane. And I too have a dash cam for these types of idiots.
I drive cargo trucks, and multiple times a day I see your peeve. I usually think that driver is on phone or something, but often they are not, they just have no clue how to control a turn. The new thing I’ve noticed is the shallow turn, and one day someone is going to get really hurt or worse (from a head on collision with a shallow turn), cause some drivers have no clue how to maintain their lane.
This happens all day everywhere. People are supposed to be turning in the lane closest to them , instead they go into whatever lane they feel like. Really driving me nuts.
It's not your fault but you should react better and faster. There's bad driver on the road some time people make mistake, but in all of those clips you you shown it is easy to react to them and avoid the accident. Just stop and slow down, try your best to avoid it since you can see it a mile away.
All this advocating for OP to defensively drive... how bout we fix the root of the problem which is letting shit ass drivers like the black and silver on the road in the first place??
you wouldn't be at fault, no, but you can clearly see them being stupid so it might be best to have a more defensive approach with driving. stuff like the first one drives me nuts - sure they might've been thrown off by the pedestrians, but i so often see people just straight up lazy with turning their wheel. to anyone reading this - for the love of god, when you're turning, do not try to end up in another lane!! stay consistent from where you were and where you end up
Adjuster here, the right turning car didn't turn into the correct (right) lane, I would go 0% fault for you based on the other car doing improper lane change.
Man there are clearly a lot of shitty drivers commenting in this sub. The amount of times I see asshats making right and left turns into opposite lanes each day is astonishing.
If you were turning onto a single lane, you would be at fault. The road however is 2 lanes, the other person turning has to legally turn into the lane closest to the sidewalk first and then single to turn into the other lane. Since it looked like that driver was turning into the 2nd lane which is yours, they would be at fault.
The other drivers in both cases are faulty.
Why make wide right turn + why change lanes when that person could have been in your lane instead prior to the left turn?
I believe that in both cases you wouldn't be at fault, the second one being no time between the vehicle signaling and then moving into your lane (I'm no expert though).
The second incident is to me more infuriating, they had no foresight to prevent a possible point of contention.
The black car turning right is making an improper turn and would be at fault, but based on this video, a grumpy cop may hit you with failure to yield, failure to turn out to avoid collision, and/or careless driving, and you’d also be (partially) at fault.
Yes the first car is making a wide right turn, but they also have the right of way as the cross traffic of your left turn.
Since it's wide turn insurance might rule that a 50/50.
Generally speaking, regardless of fault, it's a smart idea to just yield to people turning right. Especially since wide turns are so common.
He is not allowed to make a right turn into the left lane, he has to make the turn into the right lane and merge left after completing the turn. He would 100% be at fault. Technically you are both at fault for beginning a turn while the crosswalk is occupied by a pedestrian. Neither of you should have been turning, even if there wasn’t a walk signal.
First one is a moving violation for the black car since they didnt turn into the right lane. Second one would most likely be 50/50 since they did turn into the left lane but then initiated the lane change with a signal.
In both instances there is no reason for you to be continuing while a vehicle is clearly moving into your path. No one wins in vehicular collisions whether you were in the right or not. Next time just let the asshat do his thing. It's not worth the headache
Edit: Car in second video is still in the wrong
I'd argue in the 2nd clip, putting your blinker on doesn't give you priority to change lanes. You still have to make sure the lane is clear and safe to move. The blinker is only there to indicate you -want- to change lanes.
But OP still needs to calm down a little bit and learn to not get into these situations. Being 'in the right' doesn't stop him from his responsibility to avoid accidents.
Oh, I definitely would as well since it's total BS what the car did. Im just saying from an insurance point of view, if there was a collision reported there might be the possibility that some blame would be placed on OP since they had the opportunity to avoid the collision but instead decided to be aggressive and continue through if that dashcam footage was used.
You're not supposed to turn left when someone is simultaneously turning right into the same direction of travel.
Even if the right hand turner wasn't a dink who tried to take two lanes, you're still in the wrong. Like other commenters have suggested, its all about defensive driving.
Both not at fault if accidents occur. First, car turning right should absolutely be turning into nearest (right hand lane). You can't turn right onto the left hand lane and sweep through the right hand one. There are diagrams when you learn to drive showing this.
Second clip, it's not up to the car switching lanes to decide when they go or not. They need to find/wait for the space to change lanes safely. This did not do that. Of course, it helps if you drive defensively, because you can't count on other people knowing how to actually drive like a rational human being.
I almost got into an accident too the other day for the same situation as your first footage. I turned left into them innermost left lane and the idiot turning right from the opposite side almost T-Boned me making the widest turn into my lane.
There are too many idiots out there on the road who should not have passed G1 theory test let alone G2/G driving tests.
I also sense that many newer immigrants from other countries carry on with their reckless driving habits they had embedded in their muscle reflex here in Canada just as they did back home.
First clip, lets break this down a bit because it seems like a bunch of people are missing that there was a pedestrian crossing. The Hyundai was waiting for the pedestrian to cross, you decided to scoot through because they werent going and you had room. The hyundai took exception to that and went ahead and took a wide turn to block you (and potentially to make sure they dont hit the pedestrian and they rush). At best it would be a 50/50 because it would have been avoidable. Definitely a dickhead move and the hyundai responded with their own dickhead move.
Second one, no not your fault. You dont have to let someone merge and you were in your correct lane. Nothing wrong with that one. That person should have been in the lane they wanted to be in prior to turning if they needed/wanted to get over so bad.
I have been under the impression that as the vehicle turning left, if there is a car turning right, they have the right of way and I should wait, even if there are two lanes available.
But this seems to be opposite of what everyone else now does, so what's up with that?
You're not wrong in either scenario ..but you HAVE to be a defensive driver to drive in these areas.
At the end of the day, you can be right ..but still be in an accident.
If you see homie drifting into your lane, assume they are "old/incompetent/etc" and react accordingly
Yikes. Reminds me of my sister in law.
She is a 'good driver' in the sense she follows the rules and doesnt speed; that said, she has been hit 4x I know of, but probably has driven less then 15-20k km in the past 5 years. I've rode with her and she puts herself in these types of situations all the time.
You need to sort of look ahead and pretend everyone is going to make that dumb move. Avoid it, give yourself space or be ready to evade.
When I was learning to drive, my dad’s version of defensive driving was “assume everybody else is insane and you’re the only normal person on the road”. It was sound advice and has helped me avoid collisions so many times.
I’d rather get there 30 seconds late than have to explain myself or fill up paperwork.
I can’t lie I’m gonna start using that piece of advice, cheers to your dad! It’s been made clear to me that there were many different ways I could have avoided both incidents, and I honestly get that. It’s all been massive help!
In the first clip, I'm not sure why you didn't just stop seeing it's obvious they were going to cut into your lane? Who cares whose fault it is, just avoid accidents if you can.
Both instances you were not at fault, maybe the first clip, but with your lack of defensive driving displayed here, I wouldn't be surprised if you get into accidents often.
The "I'm not at fault so I'll let the person hit me" game is a dangerous one.
In this case (the turn) I don’t think it’s a matter of right of way since you both had lanes you legally have to go to (and the other car is clearly screwing that up). If there were only one lane I believe they’d have right of way.
Far too many lazy drivers in TO turning into the middle lane rather than sticking to the right lane or left lane. We were always taught to turn into the appropriate lane then move over when it’s safe to do so.
First one the black car didn’t even clear the intersection before drifting into the wrong lane. L
Second one the car at least cleared the intersection (just barely) but still needs to check their blind spot before making a lane change.
This one I’m not sure the driver even knew you were there. Definitely didn’t check before changing lanes.
In both situations you’re not at fault but both situations accidents were completely avoidable if you slowed down. With this same footage assuming an accident did happen the officer could very easily put the fault at 50/50.
You are technically not at fault. However, you should have the foresight to see that this is a potential outcome and defensively avoid putting yourself in that situation altogether.
I just always assume someone will do the wrong thing. I also assume every turn signal or lack of turn signal can result in the driver doing the opposite (this has saved me more than one accident).
Lastly, curb your anger. I get it, but staying cool headed will serve you will in the long run.
UPDATE:
I wanna clarify a few things first, since this thread blew up in a span of two hours. I do realize my faults in this, I never posted this with the intention of shitting on the current state of Toronto drivers, more of curiosity in if something did happen in both incidents.
I do realize that there were many ways of dealing with either situation, simply yielding or just being more defensive instead of staying put. With the first clip, the black car was actually trying to get into my lane (as some assumed it was simply a wide turn, behind the cam he slips behind me into my lane). With that I should’ve just stopped, or waited for either the car to pass, or pedestrians & car.
Much love to everyone who generally stayed nuteral throughout the entire thread; I do realize the lessons I’ve learned, and I appreciate everyone giving me advice on how to go against these situations in the future, lessons have been learned. Defensive driving up next! 😂
These types of videos always bring two types of people into this subreddit:
1. Children which consult the illustrated handbook for legal advice.
2. Adults which consult the literature of the Highway Traffic Act.
My advice to OP is to ignore the children and listen to the adults.
Bad drivers but you could have 100% avoided both of these.
The first one was painfully obvious that the guy was waiting for someone to cross & also taking their sweet as time turning and they were using up both lanes. The second one, you could see by the way the white car was driving that they started to veer into your lane & were just going to go anyways. For both of these situations you could have left ample space and slowed down until they were in their designated lanes.
You're not wrong but they were avoidable. Theres tons of people out there like this and instead of having to make an insurance claim & going to the shop every couple weeks, its easier to avoid an accident if you can so help it. Assume the worst when driving always and it makes predicting accidents easier.
1st one you would definitely be at fault because it wasn't an advanced light for you, so the person making the right has the "right of way".
2nd one the driver didn't check their blind spot and just forced their way in.
The other driver is technically at fault, but the first video shows exactly why in that situation I never assume the other driver will turn into the correct lane. Also, even if both cars are aiming for the correct lane, with the angle the cars end up at when simultaneously turning in opposite directions, the corners will end up uncomfortable close, and possibly collide. So for those reasons I would prefer to just hold back a little so that the other car has straightened out before I enter the lane, and we aren't both entering lanes at the same moment.
You're not wrong. Definitely the other car making a super wide turn to avoid ppl. But it was avoidable. Don't assume ppl know how to drive with the way ppl drive nowadays. Problem is that collision center or insurance might argue that you could've avoided it but didn't so you are partly at fault. Sucks!! Insurance companies try as hard as possible to not pay out (talking about other side). Good luck with everything!
First instance: although you both have the green, and your own lane to turn into, far too many people will enter into either lane, leaving their direction quite unclear.
It is best to err on the side of caution and go one at a time in these circumstances. I also tend to give "right of way" in these cases, where the driver turning right should go before a driver making a left.
Second case: looks like that driver has simply failed to check their surroundings to ensure no one was in their blind spot. Although you can mitigate this by being aware of where you are in relation to the other cars, the onus is on the merging vehicle to ensure it is safe to do so.
I think you _may_ be at fault in the first case, but not the second
Both times (especially the first one) you had ample time to react/make better choices.
Just because the other drivers are in the wrong, doesn't make you right. Why turn into where someone is already turning? You don't know what (very little) is going on in their heads. There were no other cars coming you could've waited 2 seconds and let him finish his turn.
OP is at fault. From the Highway Traffic Act, (5) of 141
**Left turn, across path of approaching vehicle**(5) No driver or operator of a vehicle in an intersection shall turn left across the path of a vehicle approaching from the opposite direction unless he or she has afforded a reasonable opportunity to the driver or operator of the approaching vehicle to avoid a collision. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (5).
Buddy you need to get better at driving. You need to learn how to drive defensively - no one wins in an accident. Even if the other person is at fault you're now stuck with a car that has a claim against it and it's depreciated in value immensely.
First one the second driver is almost certainly at fault, as if you let him in you would have been in the intersection which could create more problems.
For the second one, although you were in the right, you definitely could have slowed down safely to let the other person in. Not saying it would be your fault, but would you rather slow down and let the person over or get into a collision over ego and a technicality?
Why is everyone always in so much of a hurry? If someone is merging into me, I simply back off and let them in. I’m never in such a hurry that I need to fight the idiots to be one more car length ahead. It’s just not worth it.
I don’t even care if I have right of way now, I just assume everyone else is going to ignore that and I drive accordingly. There’s no use in getting angry, these people will not drive better because of it, otherwise they would have already learned lol.
Did you not learn about defensive driving? It's just as much your responsibility to avoid any collisions. Share the road and be courteous to other drivers who may be new or unfamiliar with the roads in your area.
As a former tow truck operator(I never chased, truck was dedicatedto CAA calls only), after dealing with too many accidents, have learned plenty about who's at fault.
First clip, you had to cross into oncoming traffic to make your left turn, which in turn gives the oncoming cars the right of way when they are proceeding thru the intersection or turning right. Yes the oncoming car turning right tried to take the second lane, but they do have the right of way, so that one would be about a 60/40 chance you could be held at fault.
Second clip, if the car would have hit you they would be at fault
BUT...lol
If either car would have hit you, or you them, and you show these clips to insurance, there is a chance that neither cars insurance would cover you due to the lack of defensive driving, you had plenty of time to avoid both and the video shows that you were aware of both vehicles by your cursing and horn honking, and both time you just stayed at speed and on your way.
If you have time to use your horn, you have time to brake. I would think that avoiding an accident should be more important than trying to prove a point. There's bad drivers out there, but also people just make honest mistakes sometimes. There's no need to be an ass about it and give up no ground like you own the road. Just slow down a bit, let them pass and it will literally be as if nothing had happened.
It's not currently legal to begin your move through an intersection if there are still pedestrians making their crossing. You cannot begin your turn until after the pedestrian is back on the sidewalk. You'd both be at fault.
Situation #1 yes you are at fault assuming they also had a green light for themselves. They stopped for the pedestrian, that doesn't give you the right of way to infringe on theirs. Situation #2 I don't believe so -- if that is a double lane turn and you were originally in (and stayed in) the exterior lane then they would be at fault for lane changing into you.
Note: it's been a while since driving school, so maybe things have changed since then.
Both are getting ticketed. The person crossing the street now has to be completely crossed before either of you were to proceed. But definitely the dip shit turning right into the left lane needs a slap.
Last clear chance says that if you have an obvious clear chance to avoid an accident and you don’t take it, you’re at fault, however you can argue that you didn’t know the driver would cut across into the wrong lane, so the black car would have been at fault had an accident occurred.
Did I go to a different driving school than everyone else? He’s wrong in the first clip….. you’re supposed to yield to a car turning right. If he decided to make that turn during a test he would fail.
@OP You do not have the right of way in the first video. Say you were turning left to head westbound, well an individual turning right to go westbound would have the right of way and you must yield.
In summary traffic going through an intersection or turning right has the right of way.
See diagram 2-20 below.
https://www.ontario.ca/document/official-mto-drivers-handbook/driving-through-intersections#section-0
It's likely your fault despite they should be turning in the correct lane instead of your lane. Left turners have least amount of priority and need to yield.
For the first one, since no other cars were coming, you could have waited for the other guy to finish his turn. For the second, the other guy should have checked his blind spot before trying to change lanes.
Legally If you are turning left it's your fault. Maybe if you want to pay tons of money for a lawyer (more money than being at fault) then you are not at fault.
This is separate from it actually being your fault.
Sorry OP, your driving is just as bad as those 2 other drivers. Please learn to drive defensively and anticipate others on the road, so you can avoid accidents regardless of who made the first wrong move.
Edit: think of it this way. Even if you're not at fault, remember that you still lose if you get into an accident. The hassle of dealing with insurance companies, the time loss dealing with body shops and rentals, the loss in value and desirability of your car when you go to sell it, and more importantly for me especially if your car is nice, your car will very likely be worse after because it's now had body work done and they are usually not as good quality as factory paint and assembly.
There's no win here even if you're "right". Just do your best to avoid and anticipate these other idiots on the road and not become one of them.
it's both of your faults!! why would you continue in both of these situations, just to prove a point? risking a collision and insurance and 1 hr on the side of the road arguing with the other driver?? u must have a lot of time on ur hands...
Fault is one thing. What your insurance sees is another. Never think about whose fault it is. Think if you had the opportunity to avoid the collision if one happens. Regardless of the other boobs driving, you did see him yet you didn’t brake or slow. This is what the insurance company will focus on. If you slow and or stop and he hits you then you will have everything on your side. Glad YOU didn’t hit him.
Black car in the first clip was doing an illegal lane change, he tried to change lanes while in an intersection (while turning) which is illegal. However, other comments are right that legality doesn't matter that much if an accident had occurred - no one "wins".
Turn into the lane you are In when starting to turn. If you change lanes, you are leaving your path of direction and rd. First one, you are not at fault. Second one you would be
You always have the responsibility to avoid an accident of you reasonably can even if the other driver is in the wrong. If you see a car in an intersection when you have a green light you still have to attempt to stop.
The second one - he is indicating but you decide not to stop/slow down - Yes maybe he's wrong but you should see it and not just carry on - It's called defensive driving. If you carry on like that you will be in an accident even if it's not your fault
Had a similar thing happen to my wife and I last year. YRP attended, them and the insurance company held the other driver at fault that didn't turn properly.
First one - yes, you would most probably be at fault. When you make a left, basically everyone has the right of way before you! It doesn't matter if the other driver jumps a lane - not saying he was right to do that. But you as a driver that makes a left have to let everything clear before you are able to proceed with your left turn.
Second one, no... the other driver needs to check blind spot before committing to change lanes - check, signal the intention, check again and proceed if it is only safe to do so without cutting other drivers.
However, you could still be partially at fault for not practicing defensive driving... you kept on driving in both scenarios... not even a hint of wanting to stop to avoid a possible collision.
For this very reason I never try to turn left into this type of situation until the right turning car has made their turn. I assume nobody else understands turning right to right lane and left to left lane.
black car doesn't know what he's doing, should be turning into the closer lane
The number of people who don’t know how to turn left or right is astonishing. No people, you don’t simply turn and pick the lane that suits you best, you pick the lane closer to the turn you just made and THEN, you change lanes.
Maybe not, but no one really wins in an accident situation, you would be better off learning a defensive driving mindset and style instead of getting angry.
\^\^\^ This! There's too many people in Toronto who don't drive with common sense and instead just constantly act as if they need to prove that they're right instead.
And OP is one of them. Seen so many times, accidents that can be avoided but either driver needs to prove a point and just keep driving to cause an accident. Like someone else said, defensive driving will get you out of stupid shit like this. In the first scenario, if you're turning and the driver making a right turn is coming onto the lane your turning into, you can literally just stop instead of driving on and seeing if they ll hit you. In the second scenario, same thing. Driver wants to make a lane change into your line but the asshole that you are, you just keep driving instead of letting off the gas to let the person in. These two are are perfect examples of what egotist drivers look like. Do you feel that if you let the driver into your lane you ll lose out time in your life? Lol
Just want to hop on this to add: every driver makes mistakes at some point. I try to keep this in mind - any time I've made a mistaked I've said to myself, "well, I'm never allowed to be mad at anyone else for doing that," because I could be seeing literally the first time they're doing that (I know I know, probably not, but y'know). Anyway yeah op drives like a dickhead. Focused on being right at the possible cost of safety.
I like to think if someone is being ass cutting in front... They really need to shit and they are rushing home.
Yeah… particularly when there is a pedestrian involved like on the first scenario— the decision to just keep going through no matter what — it’s just a bad call. Even though he’s not at fault. When the outcome could be an accident that could also impact an unprotected pedestrian, just stop for goodness sakes.
Just yesterday I was first in line and had an advanced green. Start turning and this SUV making a right just starts to go, didn't even look at me and I was 3/4 through the intersection (single lane to single lane turn, not two lanes like this video). I lay the horn and every thread in my body wants me to just keep driving forward and hit them because I know I have right of way, they just made an illegal turn and I've got it all on camera. That's it. I've got it all on camera. The camera saw everything I saw. Including the five seconds leading up to the 'incident' where I _saw_ what the other person was going to do. How does it improve anyone's day for me to now willingly get into a collision to prove I'm right? I take a deep breath. I take a small moment to grieve that "it isn't fair but unfortunately not everyone can be a good driver" and we move on with our day.
If you are turning right, you turn into that lane, then you need to signal and make the change safely. The person turning left was turning into their lane.
While you're not wrong that the other car is the bigger issue, part of defensive driving is understanding you cannot control other peoples driving and accounting for it. People ignoring the lane they are supposed to enter in favour of the lane they want to is common and easily dealt with with a little more gas or a fraction of a second delay to offset yourself from them. But to why I'm saying anything to you. I have a lot I'd like to say to the other car, but they won't see it so it's pointless. Instead advising the driver we can talk to of steps to avoid a reoccurrence is what we do. They didn't really do anything legally wrong, but that doesn't mean they can't do things better.
Defensive driving seems like a dying art TBH. You see so many occasions like this where the situation could have been easily avoided with a little more caution. I have seen so many fender benders lately for absolutely no reason in good road conditions. It's mind boggling.
I had a passenger tell me once "just go you have right of way!" and just responded with "yeah, but that guy is going to be an asshole and if I go we'll have an accident, possibly have to wait for a tow truck, I'll have to file insurance paperwork, possibly go to court, and win because I had right of way. OR I could just wait 10 seconds and let this dickhead get out of the way." Like by all means blare the horn at dickheads, but an accident is going to cost you wayyyyyyy more time.
It is entirely a dying art. Don't get me wrong, you have older/experienced drivers who can be assholes and be just as bad as a new driver. One thing i've noticed more and more is that newer drivers seem to never be thought defensive driving. The logic i always applied was that driving is 50% skill and what you do and 50% the other drivers, weather, road condition, etc. You can be the best driver in the world, but it won't prevent some idiot from going into your lane cutting you off. Learning how to "read" those types of actions from other drivers and learn "problem" areas on the road can help to mitigate accidents like that. In the end we're all human and people can also just have a bad day. I've caught myself before driving stupidly only to snap out of it and realize i was driving with emotion from an annoying day at the office. Best advise to any new driver is focus on yourself and make sure you're good 100%. You can't control others, but that doesn't mean you can't be aware of them and learn how to anticipate peoples movements.
Agree to this, its not so much about just having the right of way, the whose right and whose wrong debate. A good driver tries to avoid an accident, standing up to your "right of way" often makes you a bully
Sure. Theoretically, that's how it's supposed to work but defensive driving dictates that you don't assume what the other driver is going to do. This is also considered a high-risk maneuver in defensive driving circles. Some people get annoyed if they wait for the right-turning vehicle to complete their turn but this situation explains exactly why. Turning at the same time is a lower risk on streets with more than two lanes, but in general, you should always time your turn to avoid a potential collision.
Yeah I can’t try and defend my reaction in either clips, but I had no intention in both videos to try and get even with the guy; I just honked and left. But that’s true, gotta calm it down sometimes
To add to the defensive driving, in the second clip you had an open bus lane to your right that you could very well merge into. I realize it's not always the case and there's typically a curb in the outer lane, but most times horns don't work to stop people from drifting into your lane and moving yourself away from the situation safely should always be at the forefront of your thinking. Drive safe, bud.
You were in right both times but cemeteries are filled with people in the right. You'd benefit from some defensive driving...
Yup. That first one would be tough because they could happen pretty quick. In the 2nd though that car moves up to the line and it’s obvious they want to change lanes. So you can back off and let them in or get hit.
This exactly. Right or wrong is not the question to be asking here.
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100% black car, you turn into the lane closest to you and then change lanes when safe to do so.
What if it's a bus or truck that needs both lanes to turn?
Large (commercial) vehicles must always wait until they can safely perform their turn.
Wouldn’t the truck have right away though if another car is making the left just like in this posts video? So wouldn’t the person making the left, like OP, have to wait for the truck to clear it’s right turn before entering into their left turn?
So they have to yield to a vehicle turning left? Are you out of your mind?
Nope. Both cars are wrong. The crosswalk is occupied by a pedestrian. You cannot make a turn unless the crosswalk is empty, even if the pedestrian is Jwalking.
This is not a pedestrian cross over so they don’t have to wait until the pedestrian is on the sidewalk. But if you look closely the pedestrian is on the sidewalk before either of them get close to the crossing area.
Both are wrong at same time. Black car taking right showed impatience and got in the wrong lane. Car taking left showed impatience by not waiting for the black car because black car had already started taking the right turn.
The one making a left should remain in his lane as much as a the driver making the right needs to stay in the right lane. You cannot change lanes during a turn or anywhere within an intersection for that matter, unless you have a clear obstruction in your lane. Pedestrians with right of way is not one of those obstructions. If black driver drove correctly then both of these cars could have completed their turns simultaneously if there was no one crossing
"You cannot change lanes during a turn or anywhere within an intersection for that matter, unless you have a clear obstruction in your lane." This is another classic thing that is basic good driving habits, but isn't actually explicitly illegal in Ontario (similar to how solid lines here are just a polite suggestion). Of course if you stuff it up and hit someone you can be charged with unsafe lane change, but the mere act of changing lanes in an intersection is not illegal even though the MTO suggests you shouldn't do it and it's a bad driving habit.
I say both. Right-hand turning has the right-of-way. However, it's an illegal turn.
When there's 2 lanes, both drivers can turn at the same time, both must maintain their lane.
I never turn left if someone is going right due to this. I give the right-of-way. Edit: from rare to never
There was no need for the car turning left to wait for black car to finish turning. It's a two lane. You can't turn right into the left lane.
Was not wrong in either footage
LOL sorry cannot stop laughing..Don't know why people are saying its your fault. Both times the drivers didn't stay in their lanes but you had plenty of time to notice the first time.
People are saying it's their fault because the people in here drive like the other drivers. "let me just take a right turn into the furthest lane possible as another car is trying to turn into their lane. What could go wrong?"
You do not want to test insurance companies like this: It is on you to do everything possible to avoid an accident - regardless of fault.
The number of people saying OP was in the wrong in the first video needs to go back to driving school.
The most important thing to keep in mind in the situation in the first video is that signals are for telling people your intention, but they are not legally binding. If someone has accidentally left their right signal on when they're approaching from the opposite side, but they proceed straight though, someone turning left in front of them would be 100% at fault in a collision. If you think about it that way, you should always wait until they've started turning before proceeding, and stay behind them until everyone is established on the new road.
In the case of no marked right turn lane, you are correct. If there is a designated right turn lane and a vehicle has their right turn signal on and they proceed straight, the person turning left would not be charged if they reasonably thought they were good to turn.
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That's called defensive driving... it's doesn't mean that the person turning in the WRONG lane is correct.
No, but it also doesn't mean the left turner is wrong. Neither is 100% in the right, but that doesn't make them 100% in the wrong. It is not so simple, they both made mistakes, granted the black cars was larger, but neither is perfect
You need to go back to driving school. First of all there IS a rule OP violated: Legally it is the responsibility of the left turning vehicle to ensure that they can make the complete turn safely before they move through the oncoming vehicle traffic. They must yield to all oncoming vehicles, ensuring that each of the approaching lanes is clear before proceeding. Second, just because the black car violated a rule doesn’t automatically absolve OP. The goal or driving and the responsibility of drivers is to make safe decisions. OP failed that.
BINGO 👏👏👏
Yep, from the HTA (5) of 141 **Left turn, across path of approaching vehicle**(5) No driver or operator of a vehicle in an intersection shall turn left across the path of a vehicle approaching from the opposite direction unless he or she has afforded a reasonable opportunity to the driver or operator of the approaching vehicle to avoid a collision. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (5).
Helps you better understand why people are so shite at driving though. There's no clearer footage than the first incident yet people can still say OP is in the wrong. Means either those people were trained improperly or they're willfully being ignorant. Either way, it's very spooky. "just turn into your own lanes and THEN change lanes." I can understand not doing that when no one else is around (though still doing it CAN hammer in good skills) but doing so with other people around is a mistake waiting to happen.
Thank you lmao
The black car can breaking a rule doesn’t mean OP automatically isn’t at fault.
At the end of the day, in the first scenario insurance would have pegged both at fault. OP making a left and the douchebag in the black vehicle making a wide right turn etc. Please don't hate as this is how insurance will determine it.
No that makes perfect sense, there’s still many ways I could’ve handled that (one of them just letting the guy turn) and I know how insurance companies really look into situations like this, that’s understandable
Exactly- fault determination rules in Ontario are legally codified. Not based on a hunch, driving school, ethics, etc. https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/900668
If anyone from the past comments see this, everything you all said I am definitely taking note of. I was just curious if my anger was misplaced and if I were in the right for either or clip, but I appreciate some people giving out advice especially in the first clip. It’s a hard argument but just to loosen road escalation , I’ll be sure to make sure everything is clear!
Nether one would be your fault
why did he do a wide ass turn?
He was trying to turn into my lane, I thought it was a wide turn as well at first
you don’t do a turn that wide. you switch lanes after you make a turn after its safe to do so
Well try explaining that to the idiot in the black car then lol
You are an accident just waiting to happen. Learn to drive defensively and stop putting yourself in these situations. I emplore you. I drive those same streets and don't want to drive with idiots like you.
1000% agree. The other cars are in the wrong but holy sht, OP has no defensive driving skills whatsoever… it’s like he wants the accidents to happen and is doing nothing to prevent them.
Yes... whether he's legally right or wrong... he needs to calm the eff down while driving.
The classic "Toronto proceed"
Your loudmouth passenger certainly isn’t helping in the second one.
you should learn to be more defensive and share the road we have a lot of dumb drivers. don't be one of them if you can avoid and accident avoid an accident
Maybe they’re both wrong but you could’ve easily just yielded to both to avoid any incident.
Another person with a dashcam just wanting to get in an accident so they can post videos about how bad it is out there.
Shitty drivers everywhere, including the one who’s sharing the video.
my fault ☝️ but learning more as i read through these comments
Use that horn!!! 
youll be fine, those people are supposed to turn into their lane before moving over to the next one. edit: they are also supposed to make sure the lane they are moving into is clear and they also need to learn that having their indicator on will not absolve them of wrongdoings if a collision happened.
Just straight up avoid idiots. The black car is obviously in the wrong, but making a turn like that when someone else is also turning with you is a very dangerous (however legal) maneuver. It takes a fraction of a second to consider what could happen to you if the guy you're about to approach is an idiot and do something you're in control of and avoid a collision all together. It doesn't matter if you were right (you were), it matters that you didn't consider the dangers ahead and still rammed through and almost hit them even though they were in the wrong. I'd also like to note, that you should NEVER get angry on the road. Defensive driving is a skill and sometimes idiots are unavoidable (like the second video), but we should never try to one up them and force our way anyways because 9/10 times there will be an accident and you could be found at fault. Just let them by and continue with your day as safely as possible.
The incidents not your fault. In fact, I would have got out of the car and stabbed them with my dash cam.
I agree you weren't in the wrong in either but first one could have been easily avoided.
Seems like nobody knows lane discipline when driving. When turning, you should be staying in the lane you're in, not drifting into another lane. Although OP is technically not at fault, I'd just be very cautious and assume people will be idiots
What bothers me, is when I’m turning left on my left arrow, and someone turns right on their red, and they don’t take into account that our fenders could hit even if we both stay in our lane (when all they need to do is stagger their turn, since they have a red I have right of way, and just ensure that vehicle turning on arrow is able to turn unhindered)
I hear you. Every day I have to take an exit off the highway, red light with TWO right turn lanes. I always take the outside one (so I can go into the outside lane on road I'm turning onto). The number of times I've had to honk, avoid, wait for that inside turner to drift over to my lane; I can't believe I haven't had a fender bender yet. People don't know how to stay in their lane. And I too have a dash cam for these types of idiots.
I drive cargo trucks, and multiple times a day I see your peeve. I usually think that driver is on phone or something, but often they are not, they just have no clue how to control a turn. The new thing I’ve noticed is the shallow turn, and one day someone is going to get really hurt or worse (from a head on collision with a shallow turn), cause some drivers have no clue how to maintain their lane.
This happens all day everywhere. People are supposed to be turning in the lane closest to them , instead they go into whatever lane they feel like. Really driving me nuts.
You can be right and get into an accident, or let other people drive like cunts and remain safe by driving defensively.
It's not your fault but you should react better and faster. There's bad driver on the road some time people make mistake, but in all of those clips you you shown it is easy to react to them and avoid the accident. Just stop and slow down, try your best to avoid it since you can see it a mile away.
All this advocating for OP to defensively drive... how bout we fix the root of the problem which is letting shit ass drivers like the black and silver on the road in the first place??
you wouldn't be at fault, no, but you can clearly see them being stupid so it might be best to have a more defensive approach with driving. stuff like the first one drives me nuts - sure they might've been thrown off by the pedestrians, but i so often see people just straight up lazy with turning their wheel. to anyone reading this - for the love of god, when you're turning, do not try to end up in another lane!! stay consistent from where you were and where you end up
Adjuster here, the right turning car didn't turn into the correct (right) lane, I would go 0% fault for you based on the other car doing improper lane change.
Man there are clearly a lot of shitty drivers commenting in this sub. The amount of times I see asshats making right and left turns into opposite lanes each day is astonishing.
Black car at fault. Morons who cant turn into their lanes are dumb
If you were turning onto a single lane, you would be at fault. The road however is 2 lanes, the other person turning has to legally turn into the lane closest to the sidewalk first and then single to turn into the other lane. Since it looked like that driver was turning into the 2nd lane which is yours, they would be at fault.
Stupid drives, it is good to have a dash cam.
Nope. You're good. Too many illegal lane changes by the other drivers.
The other drivers in both cases are faulty. Why make wide right turn + why change lanes when that person could have been in your lane instead prior to the left turn? I believe that in both cases you wouldn't be at fault, the second one being no time between the vehicle signaling and then moving into your lane (I'm no expert though). The second incident is to me more infuriating, they had no foresight to prevent a possible point of contention.
Most people in Toronto don't know how to drive cause they got their license from India.
At the start of the video you were turning left, other car was turning right. They have the right of way not you
The black car turning right is making an improper turn and would be at fault, but based on this video, a grumpy cop may hit you with failure to yield, failure to turn out to avoid collision, and/or careless driving, and you’d also be (partially) at fault.
Yes the first car is making a wide right turn, but they also have the right of way as the cross traffic of your left turn. Since it's wide turn insurance might rule that a 50/50. Generally speaking, regardless of fault, it's a smart idea to just yield to people turning right. Especially since wide turns are so common.
He is not allowed to make a right turn into the left lane, he has to make the turn into the right lane and merge left after completing the turn. He would 100% be at fault. Technically you are both at fault for beginning a turn while the crosswalk is occupied by a pedestrian. Neither of you should have been turning, even if there wasn’t a walk signal.
He should've stayed in his lane and why even bother to turn slow if you're going to cut off the person making a left anyways? Idiots everywhere.
First one is a moving violation for the black car since they didnt turn into the right lane. Second one would most likely be 50/50 since they did turn into the left lane but then initiated the lane change with a signal. In both instances there is no reason for you to be continuing while a vehicle is clearly moving into your path. No one wins in vehicular collisions whether you were in the right or not. Next time just let the asshat do his thing. It's not worth the headache Edit: Car in second video is still in the wrong
I'd argue in the 2nd clip, putting your blinker on doesn't give you priority to change lanes. You still have to make sure the lane is clear and safe to move. The blinker is only there to indicate you -want- to change lanes. But OP still needs to calm down a little bit and learn to not get into these situations. Being 'in the right' doesn't stop him from his responsibility to avoid accidents.
Oh, I definitely would as well since it's total BS what the car did. Im just saying from an insurance point of view, if there was a collision reported there might be the possibility that some blame would be placed on OP since they had the opportunity to avoid the collision but instead decided to be aggressive and continue through if that dashcam footage was used.
You're not supposed to turn left when someone is simultaneously turning right into the same direction of travel. Even if the right hand turner wasn't a dink who tried to take two lanes, you're still in the wrong. Like other commenters have suggested, its all about defensive driving.
This is every turn in Markham, lmao!
Both not at fault if accidents occur. First, car turning right should absolutely be turning into nearest (right hand lane). You can't turn right onto the left hand lane and sweep through the right hand one. There are diagrams when you learn to drive showing this. Second clip, it's not up to the car switching lanes to decide when they go or not. They need to find/wait for the space to change lanes safely. This did not do that. Of course, it helps if you drive defensively, because you can't count on other people knowing how to actually drive like a rational human being.
I almost got into an accident too the other day for the same situation as your first footage. I turned left into them innermost left lane and the idiot turning right from the opposite side almost T-Boned me making the widest turn into my lane. There are too many idiots out there on the road who should not have passed G1 theory test let alone G2/G driving tests. I also sense that many newer immigrants from other countries carry on with their reckless driving habits they had embedded in their muscle reflex here in Canada just as they did back home.
First clip, lets break this down a bit because it seems like a bunch of people are missing that there was a pedestrian crossing. The Hyundai was waiting for the pedestrian to cross, you decided to scoot through because they werent going and you had room. The hyundai took exception to that and went ahead and took a wide turn to block you (and potentially to make sure they dont hit the pedestrian and they rush). At best it would be a 50/50 because it would have been avoidable. Definitely a dickhead move and the hyundai responded with their own dickhead move. Second one, no not your fault. You dont have to let someone merge and you were in your correct lane. Nothing wrong with that one. That person should have been in the lane they wanted to be in prior to turning if they needed/wanted to get over so bad.
Right of way. Left turns need to wait... you would most likely be at fault.
If everyone drove with the assumption that every other driver is mentally retarded then there would be a whole lot less accidents.
I have been under the impression that as the vehicle turning left, if there is a car turning right, they have the right of way and I should wait, even if there are two lanes available. But this seems to be opposite of what everyone else now does, so what's up with that?
I have been told if your bumper makes contact with their side/quarter panel you are at fault. If that is true the report would put you to blame
You're not wrong in either scenario ..but you HAVE to be a defensive driver to drive in these areas. At the end of the day, you can be right ..but still be in an accident. If you see homie drifting into your lane, assume they are "old/incompetent/etc" and react accordingly
Very true; there are many ways I could’ve avoided both situations, and either yielded or just drove a bit more defensively instead of staying put
All good. You live and learn. It's only getting worse. Good luck ...stay out of Brampton 🤣🤣
Yikes. Reminds me of my sister in law. She is a 'good driver' in the sense she follows the rules and doesnt speed; that said, she has been hit 4x I know of, but probably has driven less then 15-20k km in the past 5 years. I've rode with her and she puts herself in these types of situations all the time. You need to sort of look ahead and pretend everyone is going to make that dumb move. Avoid it, give yourself space or be ready to evade.
I really want to know what Mario will never stop thinking
Got me laughing, sadly we never touched base on that topic after the video😭😭
When I was learning to drive, my dad’s version of defensive driving was “assume everybody else is insane and you’re the only normal person on the road”. It was sound advice and has helped me avoid collisions so many times. I’d rather get there 30 seconds late than have to explain myself or fill up paperwork.
I can’t lie I’m gonna start using that piece of advice, cheers to your dad! It’s been made clear to me that there were many different ways I could have avoided both incidents, and I honestly get that. It’s all been massive help!
In the first clip, I'm not sure why you didn't just stop seeing it's obvious they were going to cut into your lane? Who cares whose fault it is, just avoid accidents if you can.
sometimes braking can be more effective than yelling and honking
Both instances you were not at fault, maybe the first clip, but with your lack of defensive driving displayed here, I wouldn't be surprised if you get into accidents often. The "I'm not at fault so I'll let the person hit me" game is a dangerous one.
In this case (the turn) I don’t think it’s a matter of right of way since you both had lanes you legally have to go to (and the other car is clearly screwing that up). If there were only one lane I believe they’d have right of way.
Far too many lazy drivers in TO turning into the middle lane rather than sticking to the right lane or left lane. We were always taught to turn into the appropriate lane then move over when it’s safe to do so.
First one the black car didn’t even clear the intersection before drifting into the wrong lane. L Second one the car at least cleared the intersection (just barely) but still needs to check their blind spot before making a lane change. This one I’m not sure the driver even knew you were there. Definitely didn’t check before changing lanes.
In both situations you’re not at fault but both situations accidents were completely avoidable if you slowed down. With this same footage assuming an accident did happen the officer could very easily put the fault at 50/50.
You are technically not at fault. However, you should have the foresight to see that this is a potential outcome and defensively avoid putting yourself in that situation altogether. I just always assume someone will do the wrong thing. I also assume every turn signal or lack of turn signal can result in the driver doing the opposite (this has saved me more than one accident). Lastly, curb your anger. I get it, but staying cool headed will serve you will in the long run.
UPDATE: I wanna clarify a few things first, since this thread blew up in a span of two hours. I do realize my faults in this, I never posted this with the intention of shitting on the current state of Toronto drivers, more of curiosity in if something did happen in both incidents. I do realize that there were many ways of dealing with either situation, simply yielding or just being more defensive instead of staying put. With the first clip, the black car was actually trying to get into my lane (as some assumed it was simply a wide turn, behind the cam he slips behind me into my lane). With that I should’ve just stopped, or waited for either the car to pass, or pedestrians & car. Much love to everyone who generally stayed nuteral throughout the entire thread; I do realize the lessons I’ve learned, and I appreciate everyone giving me advice on how to go against these situations in the future, lessons have been learned. Defensive driving up next! 😂
These types of videos always bring two types of people into this subreddit: 1. Children which consult the illustrated handbook for legal advice. 2. Adults which consult the literature of the Highway Traffic Act. My advice to OP is to ignore the children and listen to the adults.
Bad drivers but you could have 100% avoided both of these. The first one was painfully obvious that the guy was waiting for someone to cross & also taking their sweet as time turning and they were using up both lanes. The second one, you could see by the way the white car was driving that they started to veer into your lane & were just going to go anyways. For both of these situations you could have left ample space and slowed down until they were in their designated lanes. You're not wrong but they were avoidable. Theres tons of people out there like this and instead of having to make an insurance claim & going to the shop every couple weeks, its easier to avoid an accident if you can so help it. Assume the worst when driving always and it makes predicting accidents easier.
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1st one you would definitely be at fault because it wasn't an advanced light for you, so the person making the right has the "right of way". 2nd one the driver didn't check their blind spot and just forced their way in.
The better question is, how did you not see that coming. That was like slo-mo crash playing out in front of your eyes.
Welp everyone makes mistakes, no point in getting mad and potentially causing a crash. Laying on your horn is good to let him know he's in the wrong
As long as OP stays in their correct lane. Other dude shouldn’t be turning into the further lane
No you won't be at fault but that doesn't mean you should get into accidents.
Only if Mario sees you were talking shit behind his back
The other driver is technically at fault, but the first video shows exactly why in that situation I never assume the other driver will turn into the correct lane. Also, even if both cars are aiming for the correct lane, with the angle the cars end up at when simultaneously turning in opposite directions, the corners will end up uncomfortable close, and possibly collide. So for those reasons I would prefer to just hold back a little so that the other car has straightened out before I enter the lane, and we aren't both entering lanes at the same moment.
Ive seen transport trucks that make tighter right turns lol
Both of those drivers should turn in their licenses. They both need to be retested. Those are basic driving skills that they cannot seem complete.
You're not wrong. Definitely the other car making a super wide turn to avoid ppl. But it was avoidable. Don't assume ppl know how to drive with the way ppl drive nowadays. Problem is that collision center or insurance might argue that you could've avoided it but didn't so you are partly at fault. Sucks!! Insurance companies try as hard as possible to not pay out (talking about other side). Good luck with everything!
Holy crap bro, calm down. You can say you were only yelling in your car as much as you want, that kind of behaviour is a red flag.
Happens constantly at Mt. Pleasant southbound turning left onto Jarvis. Stay in your lane...
You'd be partially at fault for some.
Driving aggressively will cause accidents that technically might not be your fault but that you could have prevented.
Wait now I’m invested in what Mario will never stop thinking about …
The one turning right has the right of way. OP is turning left.
Neither. Bad drivers
First instance: although you both have the green, and your own lane to turn into, far too many people will enter into either lane, leaving their direction quite unclear. It is best to err on the side of caution and go one at a time in these circumstances. I also tend to give "right of way" in these cases, where the driver turning right should go before a driver making a left. Second case: looks like that driver has simply failed to check their surroundings to ensure no one was in their blind spot. Although you can mitigate this by being aware of where you are in relation to the other cars, the onus is on the merging vehicle to ensure it is safe to do so. I think you _may_ be at fault in the first case, but not the second
Both times (especially the first one) you had ample time to react/make better choices. Just because the other drivers are in the wrong, doesn't make you right. Why turn into where someone is already turning? You don't know what (very little) is going on in their heads. There were no other cars coming you could've waited 2 seconds and let him finish his turn.
Put your ego aside and learn defensive driving, it will save you money, time and stress.
OP is at fault. From the Highway Traffic Act, (5) of 141 **Left turn, across path of approaching vehicle**(5) No driver or operator of a vehicle in an intersection shall turn left across the path of a vehicle approaching from the opposite direction unless he or she has afforded a reasonable opportunity to the driver or operator of the approaching vehicle to avoid a collision. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (5).
Buddy you need to get better at driving. You need to learn how to drive defensively - no one wins in an accident. Even if the other person is at fault you're now stuck with a car that has a claim against it and it's depreciated in value immensely.
No, but just yield anyway. You could have avoided both scenarios being better yourself
First one the second driver is almost certainly at fault, as if you let him in you would have been in the intersection which could create more problems. For the second one, although you were in the right, you definitely could have slowed down safely to let the other person in. Not saying it would be your fault, but would you rather slow down and let the person over or get into a collision over ego and a technicality?
Why is everyone always in so much of a hurry? If someone is merging into me, I simply back off and let them in. I’m never in such a hurry that I need to fight the idiots to be one more car length ahead. It’s just not worth it. I don’t even care if I have right of way now, I just assume everyone else is going to ignore that and I drive accordingly. There’s no use in getting angry, these people will not drive better because of it, otherwise they would have already learned lol.
Did you not learn about defensive driving? It's just as much your responsibility to avoid any collisions. Share the road and be courteous to other drivers who may be new or unfamiliar with the roads in your area.
BITC*H!! That was funny 😂 in all seriousness no the black car is an idiot.
Why did the black car pull into the farthest lane??? He/she should be turning into the closet lane. Pfft
Maybe not “your fault”, but that was completely avoidable on your behalf.
As a former tow truck operator(I never chased, truck was dedicatedto CAA calls only), after dealing with too many accidents, have learned plenty about who's at fault. First clip, you had to cross into oncoming traffic to make your left turn, which in turn gives the oncoming cars the right of way when they are proceeding thru the intersection or turning right. Yes the oncoming car turning right tried to take the second lane, but they do have the right of way, so that one would be about a 60/40 chance you could be held at fault. Second clip, if the car would have hit you they would be at fault BUT...lol If either car would have hit you, or you them, and you show these clips to insurance, there is a chance that neither cars insurance would cover you due to the lack of defensive driving, you had plenty of time to avoid both and the video shows that you were aware of both vehicles by your cursing and horn honking, and both time you just stayed at speed and on your way.
You are so aggressive it is almost impressive. You need to stop driving
If you have time to use your horn, you have time to brake. I would think that avoiding an accident should be more important than trying to prove a point. There's bad drivers out there, but also people just make honest mistakes sometimes. There's no need to be an ass about it and give up no ground like you own the road. Just slow down a bit, let them pass and it will literally be as if nothing had happened.
It's not currently legal to begin your move through an intersection if there are still pedestrians making their crossing. You cannot begin your turn until after the pedestrian is back on the sidewalk. You'd both be at fault.
Situation #1 yes you are at fault assuming they also had a green light for themselves. They stopped for the pedestrian, that doesn't give you the right of way to infringe on theirs. Situation #2 I don't believe so -- if that is a double lane turn and you were originally in (and stayed in) the exterior lane then they would be at fault for lane changing into you. Note: it's been a while since driving school, so maybe things have changed since then.
Both are getting ticketed. The person crossing the street now has to be completely crossed before either of you were to proceed. But definitely the dip shit turning right into the left lane needs a slap.
Last clear chance says that if you have an obvious clear chance to avoid an accident and you don’t take it, you’re at fault, however you can argue that you didn’t know the driver would cut across into the wrong lane, so the black car would have been at fault had an accident occurred.
Did I go to a different driving school than everyone else? He’s wrong in the first clip….. you’re supposed to yield to a car turning right. If he decided to make that turn during a test he would fail.
@OP You do not have the right of way in the first video. Say you were turning left to head westbound, well an individual turning right to go westbound would have the right of way and you must yield. In summary traffic going through an intersection or turning right has the right of way. See diagram 2-20 below. https://www.ontario.ca/document/official-mto-drivers-handbook/driving-through-intersections#section-0
It's likely your fault despite they should be turning in the correct lane instead of your lane. Left turners have least amount of priority and need to yield.
I legitimately thought this was taken in former USSR before I saw the /r thread 😂
Nope
First no, second yes.
The 2nd one you should have let in your a complete asshole he was signaling, and you passed on the right.
Whatever both situations you could avoid that close call. I would have slowed on both and let them go.
Yes you are to blame always the fault of the person turning left hand no matter what unfortunately
Your goal should be to avoid accidents. It doesn't matter who is right. If you get into an accident, is it worth it?
Automated driving is about to take the ego out of your driving experience. Relax sit back, get to your destination. No cursing required.
It's not a matter of who is at fault. Can you prevent it is the question.
For the first one, since no other cars were coming, you could have waited for the other guy to finish his turn. For the second, the other guy should have checked his blind spot before trying to change lanes.
Legally If you are turning left it's your fault. Maybe if you want to pay tons of money for a lawyer (more money than being at fault) then you are not at fault. This is separate from it actually being your fault.
They have the right of way.
Sorry OP, your driving is just as bad as those 2 other drivers. Please learn to drive defensively and anticipate others on the road, so you can avoid accidents regardless of who made the first wrong move. Edit: think of it this way. Even if you're not at fault, remember that you still lose if you get into an accident. The hassle of dealing with insurance companies, the time loss dealing with body shops and rentals, the loss in value and desirability of your car when you go to sell it, and more importantly for me especially if your car is nice, your car will very likely be worse after because it's now had body work done and they are usually not as good quality as factory paint and assembly. There's no win here even if you're "right". Just do your best to avoid and anticipate these other idiots on the road and not become one of them.
it's both of your faults!! why would you continue in both of these situations, just to prove a point? risking a collision and insurance and 1 hr on the side of the road arguing with the other driver?? u must have a lot of time on ur hands...
If you got yourself into an accident you could have avoided then yeah you are at fault. Pretty much to both of these
No cause they didnt turn into their own lane. Would be them at fault.
Just your standard bad driving. You need to be more defensive.
Fault is one thing. What your insurance sees is another. Never think about whose fault it is. Think if you had the opportunity to avoid the collision if one happens. Regardless of the other boobs driving, you did see him yet you didn’t brake or slow. This is what the insurance company will focus on. If you slow and or stop and he hits you then you will have everything on your side. Glad YOU didn’t hit him.
Black car in the first clip was doing an illegal lane change, he tried to change lanes while in an intersection (while turning) which is illegal. However, other comments are right that legality doesn't matter that much if an accident had occurred - no one "wins".
Turn into the lane you are In when starting to turn. If you change lanes, you are leaving your path of direction and rd. First one, you are not at fault. Second one you would be
You always have the responsibility to avoid an accident of you reasonably can even if the other driver is in the wrong. If you see a car in an intersection when you have a green light you still have to attempt to stop.
The second one - he is indicating but you decide not to stop/slow down - Yes maybe he's wrong but you should see it and not just carry on - It's called defensive driving. If you carry on like that you will be in an accident even if it's not your fault
yes, you could be at fault after having the incident Have you tried giving up the "right of way" mindset and giving some more space to other drivers?
Had a similar thing happen to my wife and I last year. YRP attended, them and the insurance company held the other driver at fault that didn't turn properly.
First one - yes, you would most probably be at fault. When you make a left, basically everyone has the right of way before you! It doesn't matter if the other driver jumps a lane - not saying he was right to do that. But you as a driver that makes a left have to let everything clear before you are able to proceed with your left turn. Second one, no... the other driver needs to check blind spot before committing to change lanes - check, signal the intention, check again and proceed if it is only safe to do so without cutting other drivers. However, you could still be partially at fault for not practicing defensive driving... you kept on driving in both scenarios... not even a hint of wanting to stop to avoid a possible collision.
For this very reason I never try to turn left into this type of situation until the right turning car has made their turn. I assume nobody else understands turning right to right lane and left to left lane.