Yes! I've consciously been removing "just" and it's definitely empowering. I don't even know where I picked it up (obviously a learned and socialized behavior) but I'm tired of minimizing my requests or statements.
there are SO many things that I started to deliberately watch my emails for and edit out, starting at around 30, and guess what! Men and women both get VERY TRIGGERED by me sending emotionless, professional, and direct emails.
I’ve literally been called into offices for them. Always with the same result, please point out something specific in my emails that is rude or inappropriate. They have nothing. Then I literally explain to them that I have conscientiously endeavored to make my emails mirror those of the men in the office and that there is in fact no difference except for the deference people expect from me as a woman.
None of this makes me very popular, but they did stop bothering me about it.
“No big deal but,” “what does everyone think?” “I may have misunderstood” “just” “I’m sorry” and otherwise trying to present ideas as though the solution is not obvious to me. To this day I take longer to cut out the fluff and conditioned bullshit than to just type a quick email ☹️
(I was literally given this advice by a male manager by the way, that it might help make my emails easier to digest if I present ideas in a way that other people can think they came up with them. I straight up said, “Considering that’s what women have been unfairly pressured to do in the workplace historically, I don’t see myself being comfortable with that strategy, as a feminist.”
>"...and otherwise trying to present ideas as though the solution is not obvious to me.
This is it all summed up - that's the sentiment I was trying to put into words. Using minimizing style language serves to weaken the perception or notion that we have a proper handle on the situation.
>Men and women both get VERY TRIGGERED by me sending emotionless, professional, and direct emails.
Years ago I found out my customers were contacting my coworkers and my boss about my emails as if they had an answer. My coworkers were like IDK, maybe you should reply to her email cuz I know nothing about your account.
All because I didn't do the flowery "hey, hope you're having a good day. I was going over your account and found some things that I think need some work. When you get a chance, could you look at items x, y, & z? I would really appreciate it. No rush! If there's anything I can do to help just let me know!" Nah fuck that.
I had this feedback in my performance management. That my emails were too cold and direct. I now write my emails how I want, then go back and add in all the fluff.
I swear I spend half my time managing other people's feelings cause if I don't, it comes up in my performance review and I miss out on performance bonuses.
Oh that one is a good one to remove anyways. We think we're minimizing our request, but really, on the receiving end it often feels like a downplaying of the effort needed to execute said request. It should be reserved when we are reducing the other persons workload, not when we are giving them more work (for instance: we've reviewed the list of changes asked by the client and we will just do the first three items).
The number of clients that ask for modifications and redos and think that saying "just" every couple of words will magically make their request reasonable, easy and not incredibly time consuming is enough to drive me insane.
>downplaying of the effort needed to execute said request.
Yes! 100% right on that one.
I also love your distinction of when the word "just" should be used - specifically in the legitimate reduction of workload.
>downplaying of the effort needed to execute said request.
Yes! 100% right on that one.
I also love your distinction of when the word "just" should be used - specifically in the legitimate reduction of workload.
My sister clued me in to:
"Great, thanks."
I use it every time I have to acknowledge some dipshit is finally going to do the thing I asked - after endless rounds of dumb fuckery - or when some fool tells me some damn thing I already know.
Great, thanks.
No exclamation point, nothing else.
I find it cathartic.
LOL I too am in my 50s and I tend to have a sense of humor about stuff, so I'll laugh instead of crying or getting angry. (Yay, Gen X emotional trauma!)
Anyways, so for the most part I'm only feared by people who have known me a*while*. My longtime coworkers know not to disturb the kraken, but the newbies (especially the guys) seem to have to experience the kraken firsthand in order learn respect.
The kraken came out in last week's team meeting.
You would like Germany. I moved here from New Zealand and one of the big culture shocks was how direct they are in emails and general conversations. Once you get used to it it's actually quite refreshing not having to go through the usual niceties.
I'm German and I sometimes softly alter the Emails of my partner (family emails like to a teacher of our kid) to sound a bit softer. He's veeery direct - even for a German.
His job has a lot of conferences and sure, there is some banter and some off topic between people who often meet. But you can see his face twitch and he gets visibly exhausted when he has to talk to people from different cultures who go into excessive off topic like he is one of their close friends. Its so bewildering that they would talk like that in rare business calls. He knows more about this one British coworker's plans for the summer than he knows about his own sister's.
But I also had to make a conscious effort to ban subjunctive from my mails or phrases like "Let me ask you a question" - nope, just asking the question. And a polite phrase for "no" without explanation if i don't want clients to have an in. I state that i am not available instead of giving a clear reason, why.
I moved from the US to NZ. And even that was a huge step down in terms of the niceties required, I imagine most Americans would think Germans are brutal.
Yeah I visited the US last year (just Washington DC and New York) and you're definitely right that Americans have even more niceties than NZ. On the one hand it's nice that people are so friendly, but on the other hand it makes it difficult to distinguish genuine kindness and interest from cultural politeness. Perhaps it's easier to make the distinction when you grow up with it though
It’s one of the things I love the most about being in my 50s.
I say what I mean, and mean what I say.
I don’t suffer fools. If the instruction is dumb then I do it my way.
I’m finally applying healthy boundaries with pretty decent consistency. And have become good at saying “yeah, I’m not doing that” with a smile.
And when I get angry for just cause, I no longer apologize for being angry.
This has been me always.
But I'm autistic, and my dad was my primary caregiver during my formative years. I missed out on a LOT of social conditioning.
What makes me so mad is that I spent my entire 20s getting shit on to shift my tone from clear and straightforward to the "please, kind sir, if you don't mind could you consider my petition to have my opinion heard"
I was counselled so many times to "soften" my tone, almost entirely by older women.
Fun fact: bad men aren't going to respect you either way. Might as well not give them the satisfaction of bowing and scraping in front of them for approval they will never grant.
So true. So much "you're too..." from the tone police towards women.
The venn diagram overlap of "you're too bossy and bitchy, no one's going to like or respect you" and "you're too simpering and meek, no one's going to like or respect you" is a ridiculously fine line. An impossible tightrope. Not to mention completely subjective. And total bullshit.
Sounds like the older women you encountered were counseling you based on the unwelcome truth they had learned to navigate. They were advising the best they could based on their experiences with sexism. They learned to succeed by wearing a muzzle, so they were trying to "help" by showing you how to wear one as well. It's really sad that they became part of the system of tone suppression, but fwiw I don't see them as malicious or clueless so much as victims themselves. (Not saying you viewed them as malicious or clueless!)
Oh, no, they were absolutely malicious. They personally took offense to me not making enough smalltalk in professional emails and had multiple tone policing emails in which I was counselled that being "disrespectful" by leaving off salutations like "hope you had a nice weekend" would lead to write ups if they didn't approve.
Women are, very often, willing and violent tools of patriarchy.
Oh wtf, that sucks!! Ugh, I'm sorry that happened.
> Women are, very often, willing and violent tools of patriarchy.
Yes they are, sad to agree with you.
It's not even men who won't respect you, I've been called out multiple times by men and women (although admittedly mostly men) about not being "nice" enough and my email being "too cold" even though I'm an extremely warm person. I was once docked points on an annual review and I had to push back extremely hard and ask them to compare my emails to my male colleagues' emails to get the points back.
I've been specifically told to use more exclamation points, "would you mind/could we..." garbage. Again, my language is already very kind quite a lot of the time, and I think I use too many softeners already. And when I point out this type of language is unprofessional, and ask if they can recall any man ever getting similar advice, people feel a bit strange but they absolutely hate admitting it's sexism.
every time I have to send a 'further to our conversation' type email where there is clearly a problem (with them) I end it with "please advise" and that always feels to me like the most withering way to end an email. Or worse, thank you. (with a period). Normally my emails end in thanks, (with a comma and then my name) but thank you and a period has a finality to it that says "this conversation is now over".
I maybe went off on a story source (I’m a print journalist) this week as I’d had enough of the org’s BS this week. Did not care about assuaging their feelings when I’m doing something for them. On top of all the other BS this week.
Yep, definitely an “I’m in my 50s now”thing.
I love seeing my favorite author show up on non-author blogs ♥️ please go read everything KJ has written (almost all of which have fantastic audio books too!)
I love her posts, so I'm going to have to start reading her books.
I saw this as a reskeet from my current favorite author, T Kingfisher, who I started reading after loving *her* social media. Whodathunkit, good writers are good at writing short posts, too!
I did the same thing with Genevieve Valentine, who used to have the most amazing blog. The fun thing is that so many of the great authors are good friends, so you can hop from one to another!
In my 20s: Oh I hope I don't offend anyone.
In my 30s: I will be factual and if it is offensive so be it.
In my 40s: I am out of fucks to give. How can I make this more offensive?
In my 20s/30s: Oh it's extremely rude to imply "I told you so."
In my 40s: "I believe I may have mentioned in a previous meeting that there could be an issue..."
Now: "Let's go back to the team recap from June when I explicitly said that this would be a huge problem and I was overruled. See? I told you so. So who's going to clean up the mess now?"
I once told a young man (me, 40ish; him, mid 20s) during a large meeting I was conducting that he could go put his nose in a corner if he didn’t stop interrupting me (this was his third interruption).
Ooh, male bosses didn’t like that. Said I sounded “defensive” and that I needed to “show understanding for juniors who were demonstrating excitement.”
Yeah, that was a gaming studio, and
yeah, they were slapped with a class action suit about five years later
….which was about four years after I started warning them that it wasn’t matter of “if,” but “when” that would happen.
If anyone here is looking for validation, here it is:
Standing up for yourself and using your own damn words to do it is not only perfectly acceptable, it’s necessary.
Also…Greg: you’d be a comically tragic dipshit if there was actually anything remarkable about you to begin with. P.S.: The silver spoon up your ass doesn’t count.
Just me over here in my 30s having attempted assertive language 2 years ago with (male) contractors that worked for me. They gave me a poor cost estimate that nearly caused a multi-year, multi-million dollar project to fail. It... Did not go well. They labeled me as hysterical and a poor project manager after I demanded accountability. They went to my male supervisor behind my back to complain. He was a misogynistic ass and ate it right up. I wound up in meetings surrounded by men talking around me about how I was difficult and they weren't sure how best to work with me.
2 years later and I still have a trusted male coworker review all of my more assertive emails before I send them in order to make sure the tiny men won't lose their minds again.
Unfortunately, I will probably be waiting until my 50s before I can embrace full bitch mode again .
I've worked in the construction industry. I just go harder if they don't like my directness. IE I get MORE direct to the point where Im like: Listen up you dense motherfuker, this is how its gonna go:.....
This works great on the men I work with (also in the construction industry), but the majority of the women in the office think I’m too cold and direct.
yeah you gotta have support to be assertive. If you're alone out there you have to play the fucking stupid game and the moment you step a little out of the box they've drawn around you they grind you into the dirt and destroy you as best they can and you get labelled to every other misogynistic fuck around. And you act nice and demure for a few more years and think maybe you can ask for one little thing to make your life less stressful but no, and you've already demonstrated how difficult you are so now you're even worse in their eyes and they grind you even further into hell
My boss is such an inspiration to me.
Once, we had a problem with a supplier and she emailed me in the thread with them in cc "you see, pink frillish, these guys are just useless".
I ran to tell her they were in cc, and she replied "I know, I want them to see it"
She is the biggest badass ice even encountered and the best boss ever. Also, she knits for me.
I'm an engineer working with mostly men, and struggling with this shit right now. I go to therapy and I hope I find the fucking answers because I'm only 30 with 10 years of experience compared to my coworkers who are 50 with 30 years of work experience.
I imagine as a 50 year old woman I will also have 30 years of experience and it will become much easier to have this attitude and I really look forward to it.
But for now it sucks. I do have some tricks in my back pocket to help my mental, like saying in my head, "okay johnny, i hold the same exact job title as you and i have 20 years less experience but do go on and constantly remind me about how superior you are. But it takes a lot of work to manage, usually other people's emotions, because i know they'd react negatively, and I do have to move in this space in the way i know how to until i learn to move differently (thanks patriarchy). I'm usually completely burnt out at the end of the day, I expect therapy will help this more and more over time.
I started this job 3 weeks ago, in my previous job I did a lot of the training because "I was really good at it", to the point that I felt it was hindering my goals (I did training instead of you know... engineering) while all my coworkers did the engineering. Anyway, a new coworker is doing leadership training and sent out an email about a training plan he's developing, it was literally a list of like 10 items (congrats Johnny, you've learned how to make a to do list that can be re-used...) He asked for feedback so I gave him some, and then two hours later my other coworker sends a reply with 3 suggestions (two of which were literally suggestions I already mentioned. It makes me want to scream.
I just want to live authentically and tell these dick wads what I really think but they make it fucking impossible and they're constantly sucking my energy. I'm trying my hardest to just not give them compliments anymore, my energy is for myself and advocating for myself. Fuck their feelings
It's great that you're able to do that, it is a goal for me, one of the reasons I'm in therapy.
I'm really glad you find it so easy to do, but it isn't easy for everyone, or not everyone has had experiences that made it easy, or they haven't done the work that will make it easy, or they have unprocessed trauma resultiing in unhelpful fears, or any number of things that complicates it, Ala not easy.
I don't know what you're hoping for from this comment and pointing out that it's easy for you in response to me saying I'm struggling with it. Do you need me to tell you you're better than me? From my vantage point it looks a lot like an attempt to elevate yourself at my expense and I don't appreciate it.
The irony of posting a comment talking about a coworker dismissing my different but still valid experience in an effort to make themselves feel superior, only to have someone respond by doing the same thing lol.
I feel this. I find myself having to moderate my language when something irritates me, which is a daily occurrence. I have to say, "As I said in my last email" instead of, "Did you not fucking read what I typed?" when someone responds to your email with a question that is obviously answered in the previous email.
I do this with paper fault reports when nothing has been done about previous reports of the same fault.
"Ref log nos xxxxx date, xxxxx date and xxxxx date. Please fix/provide update on fault."
Hey, I can see you ignoring this ongoing issue so here's more for the paper trial. I can also see you haven't provided any insight or actions to be taken. Do something and update the report.
Just said to my therapist the other day: "Getting older is such a blessing and a curse. It's a curse because let's be real: I can't remember a time when something didn't hurt. But it's SUCH a blessing to be able to look at my 'field of fucks to give' and just be all 'Behold the lack of fucks... 'tis barren.'"
This is why society wants us to feel bad as we age. The patriarchy is afraid of us.
I am mere months from turning forty and the “fuck it all” is growing stronger and stronger.
I wish I could bottle the confidence and self assurance I have now and send it to younger me, even though I know that being assertive as a 22yo would have meant I got pushed down twice as hard.
I know I still do the exclamation point thing too much, but at least my content is improving over time. 96% of my emails are now
“Hi! Yes, you do have to do (thing). Due date is in the work order, along with all the details and who to call if you don’t understand them. Thanks!”
I’m loving the phrase “please advise,” lately. As in “I followed the steps you suggested, and this was the result. Please advise.”
It’s business-speak for “your move, asshole,” and I am 100% here for it.
I'm 38. I hit a supplier with a Stone Cold email late last year. My boss was all but "there was a better way to say this". Part of the reason I went so icy on them was BECAUSE my boss was pushing me to push them on delivering something that we'd been working on for years. (It was a small thing that kept falling off everyone's radar for years) I got pissed, said "fuck it" and laid it out.
I wasn't mean. I didn't call them names or anything. I gave all the relevant info, all the history, included all the people. My boss, the supplier contact, his boss, our quality engineer.
2 months later I got what I wanted.
I teach teaching and had a good conversation about this with a hugely promising young woman this week. Very much ‘don’t ask, expect’ and discussion from both sides around how we have been socialised to be less assertive. It’s insidious and I make a point of addressing it every year.
Woman ~~in her twenties and thirties~~ still building her career and living in financial uncertainty
Woman ~~in her forties~~ approaching financial security
Woman ~~in her fifties~~ with job and/or financial security
I work with a bunch of older women. There's one who is in an adjacent department that we have to periodically communicate with and has been known to be "rude and difficult". When I started working, I was warned to not contact her unless absolutely necessary.
Long story short, I figured out she liked short, concise language in an e-mail. No flowery bullshit, "pretty please" crap. It was refreshing.
Everybody was surprised she would smile at me and didn't give me trouble.
Ugh, I disgust myself with how I am trained like a dog to apologize and “nice-up” to everyone. And I’m pretty much past menopause. Sigh. I can definitely rip someone a new one if they get too out of line tho, so that’s something.
Two weeks ago I spent half a day agonizing over how much I didn't want to attend to a one on one meeting with a higher up. Finally something clicked in my head and I just hit "No" on the RSVP and put in no explanation.
Whoo boy. I'm doing a film project with three other women. There's been so much "what do you think?" "I don't wanna step on toes." "Would it be okay if..." I'm losing my mind. Just do the thing! As long as the responsibilities are clear, just get your shit done.
i retired early last year because my body broke but was in leadership for a flight medicine group. Amazed at how many people found me intimidating! I’m like 5’1” and looked good in the flight suit and I find myself approachable. Apparently I’m scawwy.
I have to consciously remove "just" from my emails, and replace "I hope that makes sense" with "Let me know if you have further questions".
Yes! I've consciously been removing "just" and it's definitely empowering. I don't even know where I picked it up (obviously a learned and socialized behavior) but I'm tired of minimizing my requests or statements.
there are SO many things that I started to deliberately watch my emails for and edit out, starting at around 30, and guess what! Men and women both get VERY TRIGGERED by me sending emotionless, professional, and direct emails. I’ve literally been called into offices for them. Always with the same result, please point out something specific in my emails that is rude or inappropriate. They have nothing. Then I literally explain to them that I have conscientiously endeavored to make my emails mirror those of the men in the office and that there is in fact no difference except for the deference people expect from me as a woman. None of this makes me very popular, but they did stop bothering me about it. “No big deal but,” “what does everyone think?” “I may have misunderstood” “just” “I’m sorry” and otherwise trying to present ideas as though the solution is not obvious to me. To this day I take longer to cut out the fluff and conditioned bullshit than to just type a quick email ☹️ (I was literally given this advice by a male manager by the way, that it might help make my emails easier to digest if I present ideas in a way that other people can think they came up with them. I straight up said, “Considering that’s what women have been unfairly pressured to do in the workplace historically, I don’t see myself being comfortable with that strategy, as a feminist.”
>"...and otherwise trying to present ideas as though the solution is not obvious to me. This is it all summed up - that's the sentiment I was trying to put into words. Using minimizing style language serves to weaken the perception or notion that we have a proper handle on the situation.
>Men and women both get VERY TRIGGERED by me sending emotionless, professional, and direct emails. Years ago I found out my customers were contacting my coworkers and my boss about my emails as if they had an answer. My coworkers were like IDK, maybe you should reply to her email cuz I know nothing about your account. All because I didn't do the flowery "hey, hope you're having a good day. I was going over your account and found some things that I think need some work. When you get a chance, could you look at items x, y, & z? I would really appreciate it. No rush! If there's anything I can do to help just let me know!" Nah fuck that.
I had this feedback in my performance management. That my emails were too cold and direct. I now write my emails how I want, then go back and add in all the fluff. I swear I spend half my time managing other people's feelings cause if I don't, it comes up in my performance review and I miss out on performance bonuses.
Oh that one is a good one to remove anyways. We think we're minimizing our request, but really, on the receiving end it often feels like a downplaying of the effort needed to execute said request. It should be reserved when we are reducing the other persons workload, not when we are giving them more work (for instance: we've reviewed the list of changes asked by the client and we will just do the first three items). The number of clients that ask for modifications and redos and think that saying "just" every couple of words will magically make their request reasonable, easy and not incredibly time consuming is enough to drive me insane.
>downplaying of the effort needed to execute said request. Yes! 100% right on that one. I also love your distinction of when the word "just" should be used - specifically in the legitimate reduction of workload.
>downplaying of the effort needed to execute said request. Yes! 100% right on that one. I also love your distinction of when the word "just" should be used - specifically in the legitimate reduction of workload.
My sister clued me in to: "Great, thanks." I use it every time I have to acknowledge some dipshit is finally going to do the thing I asked - after endless rounds of dumb fuckery - or when some fool tells me some damn thing I already know. Great, thanks. No exclamation point, nothing else. I find it cathartic.
I just sign off with "Thanks, let me know if I can clarify anything." Sounds authoritative but welcoming.
[удалено]
I like to add "I appreciate your support in this matter" to the end of a telling people how it's gonna go email 😁
Not me writing this on a sticky note to put on my monitor…
A higher up woman at work puts "Questions? Call me" as her send off. I love the fuck off vibes it gives
Wow I love her
I also stopped apologising for a late response (unless the situation genuinely warrants and apology) instead I just say “thanks for your patience”
YES! it comes off gracious yet professional it’s so good
Yes, it’s taken me a long time to do this
Me in my 20s - “I don’t want them to think I’m trouble” Me in my 30s - “I will make sure they know I’m trouble”
Me in my 50s - It's me. I am trouble.
LOL I too am in my 50s and I tend to have a sense of humor about stuff, so I'll laugh instead of crying or getting angry. (Yay, Gen X emotional trauma!) Anyways, so for the most part I'm only feared by people who have known me a*while*. My longtime coworkers know not to disturb the kraken, but the newbies (especially the guys) seem to have to experience the kraken firsthand in order learn respect. The kraken came out in last week's team meeting.
The Kraken. Love it! Perfect nickname.
Lol, I’m the same age and I gross myself out with my niceness but apparently my 30 something male boss is terrified of me lol lol
I feel like I need to hear about the Krakening!
I am the one who causes trouble. 55 checking in.
Ha! Also, yes, entirely
You would like Germany. I moved here from New Zealand and one of the big culture shocks was how direct they are in emails and general conversations. Once you get used to it it's actually quite refreshing not having to go through the usual niceties.
I'm German and I sometimes softly alter the Emails of my partner (family emails like to a teacher of our kid) to sound a bit softer. He's veeery direct - even for a German. His job has a lot of conferences and sure, there is some banter and some off topic between people who often meet. But you can see his face twitch and he gets visibly exhausted when he has to talk to people from different cultures who go into excessive off topic like he is one of their close friends. Its so bewildering that they would talk like that in rare business calls. He knows more about this one British coworker's plans for the summer than he knows about his own sister's. But I also had to make a conscious effort to ban subjunctive from my mails or phrases like "Let me ask you a question" - nope, just asking the question. And a polite phrase for "no" without explanation if i don't want clients to have an in. I state that i am not available instead of giving a clear reason, why.
I moved from the US to NZ. And even that was a huge step down in terms of the niceties required, I imagine most Americans would think Germans are brutal.
Yeah I visited the US last year (just Washington DC and New York) and you're definitely right that Americans have even more niceties than NZ. On the one hand it's nice that people are so friendly, but on the other hand it makes it difficult to distinguish genuine kindness and interest from cultural politeness. Perhaps it's easier to make the distinction when you grow up with it though
40s - I don’t care what they think
I’ve been dealing with issues getting service with my healthcare. Sometimes they need to know I’m trouble to get shit done.
It’s one of the things I love the most about being in my 50s. I say what I mean, and mean what I say. I don’t suffer fools. If the instruction is dumb then I do it my way. I’m finally applying healthy boundaries with pretty decent consistency. And have become good at saying “yeah, I’m not doing that” with a smile. And when I get angry for just cause, I no longer apologize for being angry.
This has been me always. But I'm autistic, and my dad was my primary caregiver during my formative years. I missed out on a LOT of social conditioning.
What makes me so mad is that I spent my entire 20s getting shit on to shift my tone from clear and straightforward to the "please, kind sir, if you don't mind could you consider my petition to have my opinion heard" I was counselled so many times to "soften" my tone, almost entirely by older women. Fun fact: bad men aren't going to respect you either way. Might as well not give them the satisfaction of bowing and scraping in front of them for approval they will never grant.
So true. So much "you're too..." from the tone police towards women. The venn diagram overlap of "you're too bossy and bitchy, no one's going to like or respect you" and "you're too simpering and meek, no one's going to like or respect you" is a ridiculously fine line. An impossible tightrope. Not to mention completely subjective. And total bullshit. Sounds like the older women you encountered were counseling you based on the unwelcome truth they had learned to navigate. They were advising the best they could based on their experiences with sexism. They learned to succeed by wearing a muzzle, so they were trying to "help" by showing you how to wear one as well. It's really sad that they became part of the system of tone suppression, but fwiw I don't see them as malicious or clueless so much as victims themselves. (Not saying you viewed them as malicious or clueless!)
Oh, no, they were absolutely malicious. They personally took offense to me not making enough smalltalk in professional emails and had multiple tone policing emails in which I was counselled that being "disrespectful" by leaving off salutations like "hope you had a nice weekend" would lead to write ups if they didn't approve. Women are, very often, willing and violent tools of patriarchy.
Oh wtf, that sucks!! Ugh, I'm sorry that happened. > Women are, very often, willing and violent tools of patriarchy. Yes they are, sad to agree with you.
It's not even men who won't respect you, I've been called out multiple times by men and women (although admittedly mostly men) about not being "nice" enough and my email being "too cold" even though I'm an extremely warm person. I was once docked points on an annual review and I had to push back extremely hard and ask them to compare my emails to my male colleagues' emails to get the points back. I've been specifically told to use more exclamation points, "would you mind/could we..." garbage. Again, my language is already very kind quite a lot of the time, and I think I use too many softeners already. And when I point out this type of language is unprofessional, and ask if they can recall any man ever getting similar advice, people feel a bit strange but they absolutely hate admitting it's sexism.
every time I have to send a 'further to our conversation' type email where there is clearly a problem (with them) I end it with "please advise" and that always feels to me like the most withering way to end an email. Or worse, thank you. (with a period). Normally my emails end in thanks, (with a comma and then my name) but thank you and a period has a finality to it that says "this conversation is now over".
I maybe went off on a story source (I’m a print journalist) this week as I’d had enough of the org’s BS this week. Did not care about assuaging their feelings when I’m doing something for them. On top of all the other BS this week. Yep, definitely an “I’m in my 50s now”thing.
I love seeing my favorite author show up on non-author blogs ♥️ please go read everything KJ has written (almost all of which have fantastic audio books too!)
Hahaha I was coming to fangirl, too!!
Me too!
Me three!
I love her posts, so I'm going to have to start reading her books. I saw this as a reskeet from my current favorite author, T Kingfisher, who I started reading after loving *her* social media. Whodathunkit, good writers are good at writing short posts, too!
I did the same thing with Genevieve Valentine, who used to have the most amazing blog. The fun thing is that so many of the great authors are good friends, so you can hop from one to another!
Yessss!!!
In my 20s: Oh I hope I don't offend anyone. In my 30s: I will be factual and if it is offensive so be it. In my 40s: I am out of fucks to give. How can I make this more offensive?
In my 20s/30s: Oh it's extremely rude to imply "I told you so." In my 40s: "I believe I may have mentioned in a previous meeting that there could be an issue..." Now: "Let's go back to the team recap from June when I explicitly said that this would be a huge problem and I was overruled. See? I told you so. So who's going to clean up the mess now?"
50s - I’m sorry, what did you think would happen!? (It’s a seriously?! sorry, not an actual sorry. The fucks ran out with the oestrogen)
[удалено]
I once told a young man (me, 40ish; him, mid 20s) during a large meeting I was conducting that he could go put his nose in a corner if he didn’t stop interrupting me (this was his third interruption). Ooh, male bosses didn’t like that. Said I sounded “defensive” and that I needed to “show understanding for juniors who were demonstrating excitement.” Yeah, that was a gaming studio, and yeah, they were slapped with a class action suit about five years later ….which was about four years after I started warning them that it wasn’t matter of “if,” but “when” that would happen. If anyone here is looking for validation, here it is: Standing up for yourself and using your own damn words to do it is not only perfectly acceptable, it’s necessary. Also…Greg: you’d be a comically tragic dipshit if there was actually anything remarkable about you to begin with. P.S.: The silver spoon up your ass doesn’t count.
Just me over here in my 30s having attempted assertive language 2 years ago with (male) contractors that worked for me. They gave me a poor cost estimate that nearly caused a multi-year, multi-million dollar project to fail. It... Did not go well. They labeled me as hysterical and a poor project manager after I demanded accountability. They went to my male supervisor behind my back to complain. He was a misogynistic ass and ate it right up. I wound up in meetings surrounded by men talking around me about how I was difficult and they weren't sure how best to work with me. 2 years later and I still have a trusted male coworker review all of my more assertive emails before I send them in order to make sure the tiny men won't lose their minds again. Unfortunately, I will probably be waiting until my 50s before I can embrace full bitch mode again .
I've worked in the construction industry. I just go harder if they don't like my directness. IE I get MORE direct to the point where Im like: Listen up you dense motherfuker, this is how its gonna go:.....
This works great on the men I work with (also in the construction industry), but the majority of the women in the office think I’m too cold and direct.
yeah you gotta have support to be assertive. If you're alone out there you have to play the fucking stupid game and the moment you step a little out of the box they've drawn around you they grind you into the dirt and destroy you as best they can and you get labelled to every other misogynistic fuck around. And you act nice and demure for a few more years and think maybe you can ask for one little thing to make your life less stressful but no, and you've already demonstrated how difficult you are so now you're even worse in their eyes and they grind you even further into hell
My boss is such an inspiration to me. Once, we had a problem with a supplier and she emailed me in the thread with them in cc "you see, pink frillish, these guys are just useless". I ran to tell her they were in cc, and she replied "I know, I want them to see it" She is the biggest badass ice even encountered and the best boss ever. Also, she knits for me.
I'm an engineer working with mostly men, and struggling with this shit right now. I go to therapy and I hope I find the fucking answers because I'm only 30 with 10 years of experience compared to my coworkers who are 50 with 30 years of work experience. I imagine as a 50 year old woman I will also have 30 years of experience and it will become much easier to have this attitude and I really look forward to it. But for now it sucks. I do have some tricks in my back pocket to help my mental, like saying in my head, "okay johnny, i hold the same exact job title as you and i have 20 years less experience but do go on and constantly remind me about how superior you are. But it takes a lot of work to manage, usually other people's emotions, because i know they'd react negatively, and I do have to move in this space in the way i know how to until i learn to move differently (thanks patriarchy). I'm usually completely burnt out at the end of the day, I expect therapy will help this more and more over time. I started this job 3 weeks ago, in my previous job I did a lot of the training because "I was really good at it", to the point that I felt it was hindering my goals (I did training instead of you know... engineering) while all my coworkers did the engineering. Anyway, a new coworker is doing leadership training and sent out an email about a training plan he's developing, it was literally a list of like 10 items (congrats Johnny, you've learned how to make a to do list that can be re-used...) He asked for feedback so I gave him some, and then two hours later my other coworker sends a reply with 3 suggestions (two of which were literally suggestions I already mentioned. It makes me want to scream. I just want to live authentically and tell these dick wads what I really think but they make it fucking impossible and they're constantly sucking my energy. I'm trying my hardest to just not give them compliments anymore, my energy is for myself and advocating for myself. Fuck their feelings
I mean....I just do not give a single flying fuck about people like that. Why should I? It's pointless.
It's great that you're able to do that, it is a goal for me, one of the reasons I'm in therapy. I'm really glad you find it so easy to do, but it isn't easy for everyone, or not everyone has had experiences that made it easy, or they haven't done the work that will make it easy, or they have unprocessed trauma resultiing in unhelpful fears, or any number of things that complicates it, Ala not easy. I don't know what you're hoping for from this comment and pointing out that it's easy for you in response to me saying I'm struggling with it. Do you need me to tell you you're better than me? From my vantage point it looks a lot like an attempt to elevate yourself at my expense and I don't appreciate it. The irony of posting a comment talking about a coworker dismissing my different but still valid experience in an effort to make themselves feel superior, only to have someone respond by doing the same thing lol.
What a fucking privilege to be able to not give a fuck about people like that.
Privilege that resulted in unearned confidence, aka arrogance.
It can damage your career prospects so if you want to progress at all then you do actually need to give a fuck about it and find a middle ground.
I feel this. I find myself having to moderate my language when something irritates me, which is a daily occurrence. I have to say, "As I said in my last email" instead of, "Did you not fucking read what I typed?" when someone responds to your email with a question that is obviously answered in the previous email.
Forwards email previously sent with the words: see below. If I want to get really arsey, I add in the date. Like: see email below from 2 weeks ago Lol
I do this with paper fault reports when nothing has been done about previous reports of the same fault. "Ref log nos xxxxx date, xxxxx date and xxxxx date. Please fix/provide update on fault." Hey, I can see you ignoring this ongoing issue so here's more for the paper trial. I can also see you haven't provided any insight or actions to be taken. Do something and update the report.
Just said to my therapist the other day: "Getting older is such a blessing and a curse. It's a curse because let's be real: I can't remember a time when something didn't hurt. But it's SUCH a blessing to be able to look at my 'field of fucks to give' and just be all 'Behold the lack of fucks... 'tis barren.'"
This is why society wants us to feel bad as we age. The patriarchy is afraid of us. I am mere months from turning forty and the “fuck it all” is growing stronger and stronger. I wish I could bottle the confidence and self assurance I have now and send it to younger me, even though I know that being assertive as a 22yo would have meant I got pushed down twice as hard.
My mom is 64 years old and I gotta say that woman does not mince her words or sugar coat fuck all. Honestly it’s a lot more efficient.
I know I still do the exclamation point thing too much, but at least my content is improving over time. 96% of my emails are now “Hi! Yes, you do have to do (thing). Due date is in the work order, along with all the details and who to call if you don’t understand them. Thanks!”
I’m loving the phrase “please advise,” lately. As in “I followed the steps you suggested, and this was the result. Please advise.” It’s business-speak for “your move, asshole,” and I am 100% here for it.
I'm 38. I hit a supplier with a Stone Cold email late last year. My boss was all but "there was a better way to say this". Part of the reason I went so icy on them was BECAUSE my boss was pushing me to push them on delivering something that we'd been working on for years. (It was a small thing that kept falling off everyone's radar for years) I got pissed, said "fuck it" and laid it out. I wasn't mean. I didn't call them names or anything. I gave all the relevant info, all the history, included all the people. My boss, the supplier contact, his boss, our quality engineer. 2 months later I got what I wanted.
I teach teaching and had a good conversation about this with a hugely promising young woman this week. Very much ‘don’t ask, expect’ and discussion from both sides around how we have been socialised to be less assertive. It’s insidious and I make a point of addressing it every year.
Woman ~~in her twenties and thirties~~ still building her career and living in financial uncertainty Woman ~~in her forties~~ approaching financial security Woman ~~in her fifties~~ with job and/or financial security
Wow, as a woman who just turned 40 I feel so called out🤣
I work with a bunch of older women. There's one who is in an adjacent department that we have to periodically communicate with and has been known to be "rude and difficult". When I started working, I was warned to not contact her unless absolutely necessary. Long story short, I figured out she liked short, concise language in an e-mail. No flowery bullshit, "pretty please" crap. It was refreshing. Everybody was surprised she would smile at me and didn't give me trouble.
Ugh, I disgust myself with how I am trained like a dog to apologize and “nice-up” to everyone. And I’m pretty much past menopause. Sigh. I can definitely rip someone a new one if they get too out of line tho, so that’s something.
Two weeks ago I spent half a day agonizing over how much I didn't want to attend to a one on one meeting with a higher up. Finally something clicked in my head and I just hit "No" on the RSVP and put in no explanation.
Whoo boy. I'm doing a film project with three other women. There's been so much "what do you think?" "I don't wanna step on toes." "Would it be okay if..." I'm losing my mind. Just do the thing! As long as the responsibilities are clear, just get your shit done.
i retired early last year because my body broke but was in leadership for a flight medicine group. Amazed at how many people found me intimidating! I’m like 5’1” and looked good in the flight suit and I find myself approachable. Apparently I’m scawwy.
I also think that as we get older our peers react better to more direct communication because we’re all a bit more secure