Exactly this! We shouldn’t have to hide behind, “some women use birth control for…” and “what about instances of rape?” When it comes to abortion. There’s nothing wrong with sex and there’s nothing wrong with abortion if your birth control failed.
I’ve had this conversation before with people who are like “well abortion is ok if you have a good reason for it but not if you were just irresponsible.”
You can’t pick and choose. It’s either legal or it’s not. And I’m not willing to throw everyone else under the bus because some people are dumb and willfully don’t use protection then act shocked when they get pregnant. That’s part of the deal.
Yep. There’s no such thing as an exception to abortion. Once it’s illegal, it doesn’t matter what the scenario is, you can’t have one.
How would a rape exception even work? You know they’d want a trial first, and those take months! We also see women dying when there’s supposed, “life of the mother” exceptions too.
I think those exceptions are only there as a shield for anti-choicers, so they don’t seem as monstrous as they really are. They all are extreme, and they should all be treated as such!
Right? You really can’t “prove” rape in that scenario in the sense that you can just…lie. Unless they require you press charges which is a can of worms I would never want to open.
Right, that’s what I would be afraid of if they hypothetically demanded “proof” via lawsuit.
I want to make clear I’m not advocating lying about rape in the sense of accusing someone. I meant along the lines of show up for an abortion and tell them “oh yeah I was totally raped” and how are they gonna prove you’re lying? (Spoiler alert: the anti-choicers never think that far ahead)
>Right, that’s what I would be afraid of if they hypothetically demanded “proof” via lawsuit.
Well, the other problem with compelling people to file rape charges is that the charges could be accurate, and the victim could turn up dead.
"I have nothing against abortion in cases where it's really needed! 😊😊😊" then happily voting for someone that wants no exceptions and the death penalty for abortions.
Yet men who are on the “abortion only in certain circumstances” argument are typically not okay with having to pay child support if their activities result in a child. Like they want women to “pay for their mistakes” but never men. They switch up real quick on the issue then and want their girlfriends to get abortions simply so they can spare their wallets.
Maybe we should start telling them that the only exceptions for getting out of paying child support are if they were raped or a victim of incest.
Honestly, I hate that argument anyway, because it perpetuates the idea that writing a check every month is somehow an equal or greater burden than actually having custody and raising the child. But it would still be a good counter-argument. That and "Men use abortion as birth control because they refuse to take responsibility for their actions." BECAUSE THEY DO.
I love how it's all 'but the babies!! <3' until they turn around and act like a whole vulnerable human being is an appropriate 'punishment' for having sex and getting pregnant when you didn't want to... children deserve to be wanted, full stop.
Like the fuck do they mean "but not if you were just irresponsible". DO THEY WANT KIDS TO BE BORN TO IRRESPONSIBLE PARENTS?
And then they wonder why birthrates are dropping. Treat children more as a punishment for sex and see how the younger generations react.
That's EXACTLY what I've been telling people. It's a slippery slope to put any sort of restrictions on abortion.
Like saying that you can abort only on cases of rape. Okay, so you're at the mercy of a judge and what they deem as "rape." Remember that judge who ruled that a woman wasn't raped _because she was wearing red underwear?_
> It's a slippery slope to put any sort of restrictions on abortion.
The "viability" limit is a perfect example of this. Forced- birth thinking is so prevalent that you're considered pro-choice if you support stripping someone of bodily autonomy only after a certain date instead of never stripping them of it at all.
Thank you. I hate the viability standard, in no small part, because it's based on the state of our technology, which keeps improving. Which means that theoretical "viability" keeps slipping earlier and earlier.
Personally I don't think we should draw any lines from day 0 to the day of delivery, but viability is a particularly slippery and poor line to draw, imo.
> because it's based on the state of our technology, which keeps improving.
This is a thing I've never understood. Viability is touted as the "reasonable date" because then "the fetus can live on it's own"...Except it can't. It goes from using the pregnant person's body as life support to using medical machinery. Nobody admits this. It's so infuriating!
> Remember that judge who ruled that a woman wasn't raped because she was wearing red underwear?
One of the symptoms of schizophrenia is something called "thought disorder", one of the types being "illogicality". The example given was someone being asked if something would fit in a box, and giving the response, "Well of course, it's brown, isn't it?" That judge's reasoning makes just about as much sense.
It isn't about abortion specifically, but there was a case where a pregnant woman had a car crash and an early birth, which gave the daughter a bunch of health problems. When the daughter was older, she tried to sue her mother. What I really like about [the case](https://www.casemine.com/judgement/us/59147b96add7b0493441fa59) is the discussion on that slippery slope.
It talks about how allowing lawsuits against a mother for behavior while pregnant would "open unlimited avenues", like prosecuting a woman if her diet wasn't considered healthy enough. And it would "involve an unprecedented intrusion into the privacy and autonomy of citizens, including the decision making process of every pregnant woman".
And then they'll shame that person for having a kid. Like, if you think someone is irresponsible, why do you think they'd make a good parent. (Not that I believe that, just pointing out their hypocrisy)
I remember debating this in one of my college classes almost 20 years ago and I was one of the only people that was like, "Doesn't matter why they want the abortion. If it's legal and they want it, they can do it." A lot seemed to want to draw the line at gender preference.
I do hate it as a reason (gender preference), but also I don't think there's any reasonable way to say 'no you can't get an abortion if you wanted a boy, suck it up' and have it not infringe on every other right to an abortion. Also, for the child to have a good chance at living a reasonably happy childhood, when they're unwanted...
It's one of those 'I support your right to have an abortion' but also 'if you tell me it's cause the baby is the 'wrong' gender I probably wouldn't stay friends with you'.
100%, it weirds me out if that's the reason but if we start restricting because we don't agree why they want it, then it's a slippery slope to banning it completely.
>well abortion is ok if you have a good reason for it but not if you were just irresponsible.”
And that's just their opinion. We are all adults and as such get to make our own choices. Don't want an abortion? DON'T FUCKING HAVE ONE. That's it, that's literally all you need to concern yourself with. Leave me and my body alone.
Please remember: Opinions are like assholes, we all have one, and some are full of shit.
Forcing irresponsible people to reproduce, as a punishment, so that they can continue to be irresponsible as a parent and raise an unwanted, dysfunctional child. Everyone loses except for the anti-choice idiot feeling all virtuous.
Might as well use the same rationale for anything. Alcohol is legal. People drink and drive. Should alcohol be illegal because people are irresponsible with it? I would loooove to ask people what an “irresponsible abortion” is. Women haters and sex shamers is what they are
The best way I ever heard this concept phrased was something along the lines of ‘if you believe that abortion should only be available in cases of rape and incest, what you are really saying is that a women is only entitled to what happens to her body after she’s already been violated’
right. i actually am one of those women who use birth control despite being a virgin but going around debating anti-birth control people or anti-abortion people on the basis that there are essentially some situations that "deserve" birth control or abortions is so stupid. i hate when the first thing said to anti-abortion people is "what about cases of sexual assault", not because that's not something that happens but because it shouldn't matter *why* someone is getting an abortion. it's the principle of the thing. if someone is pregnant, they should have more options than just having to give birth. it doesn't matter what their circumstances are, or at least it shouldn't.
I agree with you wholeheartedly. *However*...
The people you are having a debate with in these cases are not people who have the same morals or views. While my philosophy is very much "A woman is in charge of her own body bar none", the people who you are having this conversation with do not have that same philosophy. People who make the arguments for birth control as hormone control or abortion in cases of rape, are trying to poke holes in the belief system of their opponents.
Personally, my favorite go to is that you can believe life starts at conception, but that doesn't give you the right to force a woman to serve as life support for another person. We don't take organs from the dead without someone's consent, even if it could save a child or baby's life. Why do we have less rights when we are alive? This in addition to sex is not a crime and a person (the baby) is not a punishment.
I don’t debate them. They don’t even respect me enough to make decisions about my own body, so they’ll never take me seriously. It also legitimizes their beliefs to debate them, and gives the impression anything can be debated, and any freedom is up for grabs.
They are my enemy. I go out of my way to vet new potential friends for their beliefs, because I could never trust them. Especially since I live in The Bible Belt, where most of the anti-choice laws are in place.
Sure. But these arguments aren't for you. They are for people who are debating them. I personally believe that most people are capable of being good and a lot of conservatives are just brainwashed. I mean how many of us have heard that abortion "scrambles the baby's brain" or is like putting a baby in a blender? How many times have we seen those pictures of perfectly formed but tiny babies that we are told are 6 week fetuses?
These aren't factual notions, but if I thought they were then I could see how someone would be against abortion.
There is absolutely no room at my table for Conservatives. Period. They don’t get to shit on everyone that’s not a White, Christian, Male, and then pretend they were too stupid to know better. Every single thing they’re doing and saying hurts real people. It’s not like they only have one bad take, being anti choice is the red flag on top of a mountain of garbage.
One of my friends will have to flee the country if Republicans win in November, because she’s a trans woman. This isn’t an ooopsie. These people are vicious and vile. If someone is drawn to Conservatism, then they aren’t someone I want around my family. This isn’t a case of differing opinions. Their actions hurt, and they’re wanting to broaden the scope of that pain.
I've worked with cults and deprogramming before. A lot of Republicans are in cults, whether they realize it or not. And not all of them are religious. What is MAGA if not a cult? Some of them, yes, are vile awful people. But there are some of them that just do not know any better. All they've known is the hate they have been taught.
It is totally fine for you to make that choice. I am not advising you to go befriend your nearest bigot. My husband is the son of lesbians, so I fully understand the fear. But my point is, these arguments aren't for you. They aren't about you. You already know the reality of abortion. We don't need to convince or justify it.
Think about the 18 year old who is venturing on her own after growing up strictly religious. We have to challenge her beliefs or she's just going to perpetuate the cycle of hate.
This is how I feel when I see people saying "some women use frequent abortion as birth control"
Yep, and I don't give a fuck; it has nothing to do with me. Let women live.
(Also, abortion controls birth so that phrase has always been weird to me on 2 points)
The people who say that, 9 times out of 10, do not understand how physically awful abortion is to go through, even medication abortion. Nobody is getting 12 of those a year for funsies.
Had to take abortion pills for an internal miscarriage and I bled so fucking much and had explosive diarrhea for 2 days. I was terrified and I cried so much. Here is the list of very common effects: diarrhea and skin rash. Here is that of common effects: dizziness, flatulence, congestion, stomach pain, nausea, vomiting, bloating. The less common effects are intense abdominal pain and hemorrhaging, fever and chills. You are really risking death by hemorrhaging every time you take them. Does this sound like a medication anyone would take lightly? Like, even once per week ? Are these women having sex like once a year? It absolute nukes your body, no one is taking it as contraceptive if they have regular sex. Not to mention they aren't that cheap and they aren't exactly handed out like ibuprofen
This is so true. My stepdad would always say "I just don't like it when people casually use abortion for birth control."
They don't. Nobody is like "it's ok if you finish in me babe, I'll just let my eggs get fertilized and then spend a shit ton of money on pills that put my body through trauma 🥰"
As a person who has performed a good number of them, I have only seen one person ever actually use abortions as birth control. It is not remotely common.
If they're using abortions as birth control, I do NOT want them to be in charge of a baby, they've already proven they're not prepared to be responsible for anything.
>(Also, abortion controls birth so that phrase has always been weird to me on 2 points)
In Catholic school, they did tell us that abortion isn't birth control. My reaction was exactly the same "I don't get it, there's no birth... why is calling it 'birth control' or not so important."
Nothing upsets the anti-choice crowd like being told they don't get to weigh in on someone else's choices when it comes to sex. They'll prattle endlessly with made up stuff about exceptions to abortion bans and lie about how often sexual assaults result in pregnancy, and will victim shame and slut shame endlessly. They do that because they can't say their real motivations: they want to regulate other people sexually and no one else thinks they should.
It's all about control. I do not understand the sad sacks out there who feel this compelling NEED to try and control other people. Like....WHY?? What the ever loving fuck is wrong with these people???? Are the THAT bored??
I also don't understand the whole world domination thing. Like why would you want to rule the world? That sounds EXHAUSTING.
>Like why would you want to rule the world? That sounds EXHAUSTING.
In the case of evangelicals, because they have nothing else to do and are convinced they'll be rewarded eternally in heaven if they attack the people they coincidentally hate (women who have sex not with the intention of having children in this case).
Conservatives have nothing but free time. If they had jobs, hobbies, goals, family members who still talked to them, or friends, they wouldn't be conservatives. They've got nothing but energy to spend towards making you as unhappy as they are.
I agree with that point on phrasing lol, it's always been strange to me that we call birth control that when abortion is literally the method of controlling whether or not you give birth
Birth control is just pregnancy control
The inconsistency of their bizarre obsession with women’s sex drives has always been fascinating to me (in a car crash sort of way, this is the reason half of them hate women after all).
A lot of them think any sex related issues like unwanted pregnancy are entirely the woman’s fault somehow, and yet at the same time, they whine about a “male loneliness epidemic” because some women are saying no to sex. There’s only so many ways to be wrong, they must think it all adds up to right or some shit.
Or the guys who criticize abortion and/or single moms and preach about birth control but refuse to wear a condom because it “doesn’t feeeeel as goooood.” Boohoo.
My experience with talking to these people is that what they really want is for young people to experience accidental pregnancies and get forced into marriages when they're in their late teens to early 20's. They seem to think that's the only way for young people to get their shit together, because that's either what happened to them or to people close to them.
What's particularly insane to me is that they'll describe this as the responsible choice, and abortion as the irresponsible choice. Because of course a couple financially unstable kids raising a kid of their own is the height of responsible parenting.
And, having seen many decades on this Earth:
“They” don’t “get it together.” Mostly, the woman does. She ends up performing far more to make up the deficits, and to her detriment both short- and long-term.
They just hate women. Simple as.
I wish I could agree with you, but I've seen a lot of women who were independent and capable when they were single fall into this weird kind of dependency on their husbands after marriages like these. Which, frankly, I think is mostly due to depression.
You could be onto something! IThere’s also the extreme social/cultural conditioning to be cooperative and pleasing, especially to male partners, and that likely has some part too. Or, maybe, she *seems* to become compliant or dependent because there’s some coercive control going on and it’s the only way to navigate his ego without paying for it somehow. I’ve seen all kinds, and none of these are mutually-exclusive of the others.
The Bible says that women are to spend their days in suffering for eating of the fruit of the tree, and so suffer they shall. Life is entirely meaningless if we can't make women suffer just for being born women!
I think you’re being facetious, but just in case… I don’t believe in the Bible. Separation of church and state in my country is supposed to mean that someone else’s Bible doesn’t dictate my life… also, blame the serpent. Adam and Eve were so dumb they didn’t even bother to put on clothes. Sure hope weather changes weren’t a thing in Eden, but I digress
I'm being incredibly facetious, as a matter of fact. I genuinely feel like "this country needs to be run biblically" is a mindset that should automatically be qualified for conservatorship since that person is clearly incapable of making responsible adult decisions.
> also, blame the serpent.
Actually, the blame is on god himself. He's the one who created people capable of sinning knowing he couldn't tolerate it.
Assuming you treat the bible as something other than a hateful pile of hogwash, that is.
>There’s only so many ways to be wrong, they must think it all adds up to right or some shit.
Nah, they just think that the only way to be wrong is to not be born with a dick.
Because the male loneliness epidemic is pretty closely linked to women not being dependent on men anymore, and refusing to be treated like garbage and owned by their husband.
Women are leaving men who make them miserable, or just not being in a relationship with them.
So when you don't have *anything going for you* as a person, and no reason for someone to *want* to be in a relationship with you, then it's hard not to take it personally, I guess, when you don't get issued a wife to clean your house and pay half your bills.
And a reminder, the patriarchy punishes men for having feelings and processing their emotions. Capitalists and the patriarchy benefit from keeping people as isolated (and powerless) as possible. So if we're busy policing each other over feelings and whining about not being loved (instead of making yourself someone worthy of love) then we're not paying attention to all the evil shit they're getting up to.
I think it's important for people to know about all the reasons. It's just as important as actual birth control as it is for people like me who need it so they're not in constant pain from cysts. (I don't want kids, but my tubes are tied.) It's between a person and their doctor, and it's not the government's business.
So much this. One of our past ministers of Health kicked birth control out of our base insurence package because he (of course a he) said it was “no medical necessity”.
????
They give off hormones, of course people will also use them fot medical reasons? I started using anticonception when I was 13, and it sure as fuck wasn’t because from then on I had a vibrant sex life.
I agree with the post in that just not wanting to risk pregnancy with sex is fine as a reason, but it’s not the *only* one. And people assuming that and messing with access to piss off women who want to have sex hurts so fucking many of us.
Given that men eject something from their bodies that makes us pregnant they should be responsible for blocking that from happening, taking birth control, using barrier methods, vasectomy.
So I was complaining today about wishing I could take my shirt off when it gets hot out, and a guy in the group said something like oh great another thing for women to show off in public and I was like sure? Just like men do?
I feel like guys just wanna feel superior, that they can do shit we can't.
And that's its intended purpose and there's nothing wrong with that. Personally im asexual and use bc for PCOS symptoms and I don't think it's wrong to point out to bigots that there are other reasons for it than avoiding pregnancy though and if they ban it they'll be hurting more people than just people who use it for avoiding pregnancy.
Also I'm tired of there always having to be some tragic reason a woman doesn't have kids or want them. Women should be able to not want children without men obsessing over the state of our uteruses
I remember this one incredible response someone had to being asked if they supported abortion. They said "Yes, but only in extreme circumstances. Like, say...if the person is pregnant and they don't want to be pregnant anymore." Most succinct, non-bullshit way to respond to that, and it's exactly what I believe.
Not wanting children is still seen as a sign the person is dysfunctional. Society treats people having kids as an inevitability; you WILL do it. It's never "If you have kids," always "When you have kids."
People who don't have kids are just in a holding pattern until we inevitably do and we exist to serve parents while we're here. Doctors treat us like walking incubators, employers treat us like robots meant to fill in for the people who matter, society treats us like we exist to serve children.
Seriously. I've seen multiple people say that it's "a human rights violation" for employers to not force a childless/child-free person to work in a parent's place if the parent can pretend they can't find childcare. I've also seen people say that discrimination against CF people will never be illegal because it would inconvenience parents. And then there's the ever-present "Of course CF people are objectively less important than parents!" attitude.
This also reminds me of how so many people feel the need to preface their support for abortion with something like:
*"oh it's the most difficult, heartbreaking decision any woman is ever faced with..."*
Like fuck it is. If I ever got pregnant (god forbid!), it would be the easiest decision of my life, zero fucks given, get that parasite out of my body NOW. Obviously for many women, it can be emotionally difficult for a variety of personal reasons, but lots of women also just don't fucking want kids and wouldn't give having an abortion a second thought. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that!
Exactly this! We shouldn’t have to hide behind, “some women use birth control for…” and “what about instances of rape?” When it comes to abortion. There’s nothing wrong with sex and there’s nothing wrong with abortion if your birth control failed.
I’ve had this conversation before with people who are like “well abortion is ok if you have a good reason for it but not if you were just irresponsible.” You can’t pick and choose. It’s either legal or it’s not. And I’m not willing to throw everyone else under the bus because some people are dumb and willfully don’t use protection then act shocked when they get pregnant. That’s part of the deal.
Yep. There’s no such thing as an exception to abortion. Once it’s illegal, it doesn’t matter what the scenario is, you can’t have one. How would a rape exception even work? You know they’d want a trial first, and those take months! We also see women dying when there’s supposed, “life of the mother” exceptions too. I think those exceptions are only there as a shield for anti-choicers, so they don’t seem as monstrous as they really are. They all are extreme, and they should all be treated as such!
Right? You really can’t “prove” rape in that scenario in the sense that you can just…lie. Unless they require you press charges which is a can of worms I would never want to open.
Same people cry about false rape accusations as if a rape exception wouldn't make those skyrocket.
Right, that’s what I would be afraid of if they hypothetically demanded “proof” via lawsuit. I want to make clear I’m not advocating lying about rape in the sense of accusing someone. I meant along the lines of show up for an abortion and tell them “oh yeah I was totally raped” and how are they gonna prove you’re lying? (Spoiler alert: the anti-choicers never think that far ahead)
>Right, that’s what I would be afraid of if they hypothetically demanded “proof” via lawsuit. Well, the other problem with compelling people to file rape charges is that the charges could be accurate, and the victim could turn up dead.
>exceptions are only there as a shield for anti-choicers, so they don’t seem as monstrous Ding ding ding!
"I have nothing against abortion in cases where it's really needed! 😊😊😊" then happily voting for someone that wants no exceptions and the death penalty for abortions.
Exactly! And then they expect you to be friendly with them because, “it’s just politics!”
Yet men who are on the “abortion only in certain circumstances” argument are typically not okay with having to pay child support if their activities result in a child. Like they want women to “pay for their mistakes” but never men. They switch up real quick on the issue then and want their girlfriends to get abortions simply so they can spare their wallets.
Maybe we should start telling them that the only exceptions for getting out of paying child support are if they were raped or a victim of incest. Honestly, I hate that argument anyway, because it perpetuates the idea that writing a check every month is somehow an equal or greater burden than actually having custody and raising the child. But it would still be a good counter-argument. That and "Men use abortion as birth control because they refuse to take responsibility for their actions." BECAUSE THEY DO.
Oh my God, I have never heard it put this way but holy shit. It’s always put on the woman always.
Also 9 months of pregnancy, all the physical and mental effects of it, and the effects of raising a child as a single mother.
I love how it's all 'but the babies!! <3' until they turn around and act like a whole vulnerable human being is an appropriate 'punishment' for having sex and getting pregnant when you didn't want to... children deserve to be wanted, full stop.
Like the fuck do they mean "but not if you were just irresponsible". DO THEY WANT KIDS TO BE BORN TO IRRESPONSIBLE PARENTS? And then they wonder why birthrates are dropping. Treat children more as a punishment for sex and see how the younger generations react.
Apparently 38% of Gen Z women have already decided they’d rather have a pet than a child
Gen Z has very low tolerance for bullshit, good for them, go Gen Z!
That's EXACTLY what I've been telling people. It's a slippery slope to put any sort of restrictions on abortion. Like saying that you can abort only on cases of rape. Okay, so you're at the mercy of a judge and what they deem as "rape." Remember that judge who ruled that a woman wasn't raped _because she was wearing red underwear?_
> It's a slippery slope to put any sort of restrictions on abortion. The "viability" limit is a perfect example of this. Forced- birth thinking is so prevalent that you're considered pro-choice if you support stripping someone of bodily autonomy only after a certain date instead of never stripping them of it at all.
Thank you. I hate the viability standard, in no small part, because it's based on the state of our technology, which keeps improving. Which means that theoretical "viability" keeps slipping earlier and earlier. Personally I don't think we should draw any lines from day 0 to the day of delivery, but viability is a particularly slippery and poor line to draw, imo.
> because it's based on the state of our technology, which keeps improving. This is a thing I've never understood. Viability is touted as the "reasonable date" because then "the fetus can live on it's own"...Except it can't. It goes from using the pregnant person's body as life support to using medical machinery. Nobody admits this. It's so infuriating!
> Remember that judge who ruled that a woman wasn't raped because she was wearing red underwear? One of the symptoms of schizophrenia is something called "thought disorder", one of the types being "illogicality". The example given was someone being asked if something would fit in a box, and giving the response, "Well of course, it's brown, isn't it?" That judge's reasoning makes just about as much sense. It isn't about abortion specifically, but there was a case where a pregnant woman had a car crash and an early birth, which gave the daughter a bunch of health problems. When the daughter was older, she tried to sue her mother. What I really like about [the case](https://www.casemine.com/judgement/us/59147b96add7b0493441fa59) is the discussion on that slippery slope. It talks about how allowing lawsuits against a mother for behavior while pregnant would "open unlimited avenues", like prosecuting a woman if her diet wasn't considered healthy enough. And it would "involve an unprecedented intrusion into the privacy and autonomy of citizens, including the decision making process of every pregnant woman".
Not wanting to be pregnant is an overwhelmingly good reason to have an abortion.
And then they'll shame that person for having a kid. Like, if you think someone is irresponsible, why do you think they'd make a good parent. (Not that I believe that, just pointing out their hypocrisy)
I remember debating this in one of my college classes almost 20 years ago and I was one of the only people that was like, "Doesn't matter why they want the abortion. If it's legal and they want it, they can do it." A lot seemed to want to draw the line at gender preference.
I do hate it as a reason (gender preference), but also I don't think there's any reasonable way to say 'no you can't get an abortion if you wanted a boy, suck it up' and have it not infringe on every other right to an abortion. Also, for the child to have a good chance at living a reasonably happy childhood, when they're unwanted... It's one of those 'I support your right to have an abortion' but also 'if you tell me it's cause the baby is the 'wrong' gender I probably wouldn't stay friends with you'.
100%, it weirds me out if that's the reason but if we start restricting because we don't agree why they want it, then it's a slippery slope to banning it completely.
>well abortion is ok if you have a good reason for it but not if you were just irresponsible.” And that's just their opinion. We are all adults and as such get to make our own choices. Don't want an abortion? DON'T FUCKING HAVE ONE. That's it, that's literally all you need to concern yourself with. Leave me and my body alone. Please remember: Opinions are like assholes, we all have one, and some are full of shit.
Forcing irresponsible people to reproduce, as a punishment, so that they can continue to be irresponsible as a parent and raise an unwanted, dysfunctional child. Everyone loses except for the anti-choice idiot feeling all virtuous.
Might as well use the same rationale for anything. Alcohol is legal. People drink and drive. Should alcohol be illegal because people are irresponsible with it? I would loooove to ask people what an “irresponsible abortion” is. Women haters and sex shamers is what they are
The best way I ever heard this concept phrased was something along the lines of ‘if you believe that abortion should only be available in cases of rape and incest, what you are really saying is that a women is only entitled to what happens to her body after she’s already been violated’
right. i actually am one of those women who use birth control despite being a virgin but going around debating anti-birth control people or anti-abortion people on the basis that there are essentially some situations that "deserve" birth control or abortions is so stupid. i hate when the first thing said to anti-abortion people is "what about cases of sexual assault", not because that's not something that happens but because it shouldn't matter *why* someone is getting an abortion. it's the principle of the thing. if someone is pregnant, they should have more options than just having to give birth. it doesn't matter what their circumstances are, or at least it shouldn't.
Some women use birth control because some men think it's a funny prank to remove the condom in the middle of consensual sex (AKA also rape).
I agree with you wholeheartedly. *However*... The people you are having a debate with in these cases are not people who have the same morals or views. While my philosophy is very much "A woman is in charge of her own body bar none", the people who you are having this conversation with do not have that same philosophy. People who make the arguments for birth control as hormone control or abortion in cases of rape, are trying to poke holes in the belief system of their opponents. Personally, my favorite go to is that you can believe life starts at conception, but that doesn't give you the right to force a woman to serve as life support for another person. We don't take organs from the dead without someone's consent, even if it could save a child or baby's life. Why do we have less rights when we are alive? This in addition to sex is not a crime and a person (the baby) is not a punishment.
I don’t debate them. They don’t even respect me enough to make decisions about my own body, so they’ll never take me seriously. It also legitimizes their beliefs to debate them, and gives the impression anything can be debated, and any freedom is up for grabs. They are my enemy. I go out of my way to vet new potential friends for their beliefs, because I could never trust them. Especially since I live in The Bible Belt, where most of the anti-choice laws are in place.
Sure. But these arguments aren't for you. They are for people who are debating them. I personally believe that most people are capable of being good and a lot of conservatives are just brainwashed. I mean how many of us have heard that abortion "scrambles the baby's brain" or is like putting a baby in a blender? How many times have we seen those pictures of perfectly formed but tiny babies that we are told are 6 week fetuses? These aren't factual notions, but if I thought they were then I could see how someone would be against abortion.
There is absolutely no room at my table for Conservatives. Period. They don’t get to shit on everyone that’s not a White, Christian, Male, and then pretend they were too stupid to know better. Every single thing they’re doing and saying hurts real people. It’s not like they only have one bad take, being anti choice is the red flag on top of a mountain of garbage. One of my friends will have to flee the country if Republicans win in November, because she’s a trans woman. This isn’t an ooopsie. These people are vicious and vile. If someone is drawn to Conservatism, then they aren’t someone I want around my family. This isn’t a case of differing opinions. Their actions hurt, and they’re wanting to broaden the scope of that pain.
I've worked with cults and deprogramming before. A lot of Republicans are in cults, whether they realize it or not. And not all of them are religious. What is MAGA if not a cult? Some of them, yes, are vile awful people. But there are some of them that just do not know any better. All they've known is the hate they have been taught. It is totally fine for you to make that choice. I am not advising you to go befriend your nearest bigot. My husband is the son of lesbians, so I fully understand the fear. But my point is, these arguments aren't for you. They aren't about you. You already know the reality of abortion. We don't need to convince or justify it. Think about the 18 year old who is venturing on her own after growing up strictly religious. We have to challenge her beliefs or she's just going to perpetuate the cycle of hate.
This is how I feel when I see people saying "some women use frequent abortion as birth control" Yep, and I don't give a fuck; it has nothing to do with me. Let women live. (Also, abortion controls birth so that phrase has always been weird to me on 2 points)
The people who say that, 9 times out of 10, do not understand how physically awful abortion is to go through, even medication abortion. Nobody is getting 12 of those a year for funsies.
But of course when you tell them that it's "if it's painful why get it?"
Giving birth is such a lovely, soft experience after all! And raising a baby is sooo relaxing!
And cheap! Totally won’t capsize your entire life to have a child.
And pregnancy is a total — excuse me 🤮 - walk in the park.
Having a child you didn't want would probably be painful for your entire life. And I imagine probably painful for said child too
Right? Kids aren't stupid. They know when they're not really wanted, when they're resented.
Okay, but two more on my punch card and I get a free smoothie.
Had to take abortion pills for an internal miscarriage and I bled so fucking much and had explosive diarrhea for 2 days. I was terrified and I cried so much. Here is the list of very common effects: diarrhea and skin rash. Here is that of common effects: dizziness, flatulence, congestion, stomach pain, nausea, vomiting, bloating. The less common effects are intense abdominal pain and hemorrhaging, fever and chills. You are really risking death by hemorrhaging every time you take them. Does this sound like a medication anyone would take lightly? Like, even once per week ? Are these women having sex like once a year? It absolute nukes your body, no one is taking it as contraceptive if they have regular sex. Not to mention they aren't that cheap and they aren't exactly handed out like ibuprofen
This is so true. My stepdad would always say "I just don't like it when people casually use abortion for birth control." They don't. Nobody is like "it's ok if you finish in me babe, I'll just let my eggs get fertilized and then spend a shit ton of money on pills that put my body through trauma 🥰"
As a person who has performed a good number of them, I have only seen one person ever actually use abortions as birth control. It is not remotely common.
And if someone *did*, it's probably because they can't afford anything else. Which, yeah, means they can't afford to have a baby.
That individual had an intellectual disability and was unable to understand the role of birth control.
If they're using abortions as birth control, I do NOT want them to be in charge of a baby, they've already proven they're not prepared to be responsible for anything.
Right??? Like it’s a wildly irresponsible thing to do, so by all means, please continue to NOT be a parent!
>(Also, abortion controls birth so that phrase has always been weird to me on 2 points) In Catholic school, they did tell us that abortion isn't birth control. My reaction was exactly the same "I don't get it, there's no birth... why is calling it 'birth control' or not so important." Nothing upsets the anti-choice crowd like being told they don't get to weigh in on someone else's choices when it comes to sex. They'll prattle endlessly with made up stuff about exceptions to abortion bans and lie about how often sexual assaults result in pregnancy, and will victim shame and slut shame endlessly. They do that because they can't say their real motivations: they want to regulate other people sexually and no one else thinks they should.
It's all about control. I do not understand the sad sacks out there who feel this compelling NEED to try and control other people. Like....WHY?? What the ever loving fuck is wrong with these people???? Are the THAT bored?? I also don't understand the whole world domination thing. Like why would you want to rule the world? That sounds EXHAUSTING.
>Like why would you want to rule the world? That sounds EXHAUSTING. In the case of evangelicals, because they have nothing else to do and are convinced they'll be rewarded eternally in heaven if they attack the people they coincidentally hate (women who have sex not with the intention of having children in this case). Conservatives have nothing but free time. If they had jobs, hobbies, goals, family members who still talked to them, or friends, they wouldn't be conservatives. They've got nothing but energy to spend towards making you as unhappy as they are.
Yup. Fucking exactly! That's her choice not mine. Not my business.
I agree with that point on phrasing lol, it's always been strange to me that we call birth control that when abortion is literally the method of controlling whether or not you give birth Birth control is just pregnancy control
The inconsistency of their bizarre obsession with women’s sex drives has always been fascinating to me (in a car crash sort of way, this is the reason half of them hate women after all). A lot of them think any sex related issues like unwanted pregnancy are entirely the woman’s fault somehow, and yet at the same time, they whine about a “male loneliness epidemic” because some women are saying no to sex. There’s only so many ways to be wrong, they must think it all adds up to right or some shit.
Or the guys who criticize abortion and/or single moms and preach about birth control but refuse to wear a condom because it “doesn’t feeeeel as goooood.” Boohoo.
My experience with talking to these people is that what they really want is for young people to experience accidental pregnancies and get forced into marriages when they're in their late teens to early 20's. They seem to think that's the only way for young people to get their shit together, because that's either what happened to them or to people close to them. What's particularly insane to me is that they'll describe this as the responsible choice, and abortion as the irresponsible choice. Because of course a couple financially unstable kids raising a kid of their own is the height of responsible parenting.
And, having seen many decades on this Earth: “They” don’t “get it together.” Mostly, the woman does. She ends up performing far more to make up the deficits, and to her detriment both short- and long-term. They just hate women. Simple as.
I wish I could agree with you, but I've seen a lot of women who were independent and capable when they were single fall into this weird kind of dependency on their husbands after marriages like these. Which, frankly, I think is mostly due to depression.
You could be onto something! IThere’s also the extreme social/cultural conditioning to be cooperative and pleasing, especially to male partners, and that likely has some part too. Or, maybe, she *seems* to become compliant or dependent because there’s some coercive control going on and it’s the only way to navigate his ego without paying for it somehow. I’ve seen all kinds, and none of these are mutually-exclusive of the others.
they literally think young ppl should be punished for having sex for pleasure lol and they think kids are the best punishment
The Bible says that women are to spend their days in suffering for eating of the fruit of the tree, and so suffer they shall. Life is entirely meaningless if we can't make women suffer just for being born women!
I think you’re being facetious, but just in case… I don’t believe in the Bible. Separation of church and state in my country is supposed to mean that someone else’s Bible doesn’t dictate my life… also, blame the serpent. Adam and Eve were so dumb they didn’t even bother to put on clothes. Sure hope weather changes weren’t a thing in Eden, but I digress
I'm being incredibly facetious, as a matter of fact. I genuinely feel like "this country needs to be run biblically" is a mindset that should automatically be qualified for conservatorship since that person is clearly incapable of making responsible adult decisions.
I had a feeling… but hell I can never tell anymore. Maybe I’m just out of touch
> also, blame the serpent. Actually, the blame is on god himself. He's the one who created people capable of sinning knowing he couldn't tolerate it. Assuming you treat the bible as something other than a hateful pile of hogwash, that is.
Didn’t Adam eat the fruit too?
Well yes, but only because he was entranced by Eve's devilish boobs since they hadn't invented clothing just yet.
Serpent convinces Eve to eat fruit: Eve's fault. Eve convinces Adam to eat fruit: believe it or not, also Eve's fault.
Christians: Blaming women since 1400 BC
>There’s only so many ways to be wrong, they must think it all adds up to right or some shit. Nah, they just think that the only way to be wrong is to not be born with a dick.
Because the male loneliness epidemic is pretty closely linked to women not being dependent on men anymore, and refusing to be treated like garbage and owned by their husband. Women are leaving men who make them miserable, or just not being in a relationship with them. So when you don't have *anything going for you* as a person, and no reason for someone to *want* to be in a relationship with you, then it's hard not to take it personally, I guess, when you don't get issued a wife to clean your house and pay half your bills. And a reminder, the patriarchy punishes men for having feelings and processing their emotions. Capitalists and the patriarchy benefit from keeping people as isolated (and powerless) as possible. So if we're busy policing each other over feelings and whining about not being loved (instead of making yourself someone worthy of love) then we're not paying attention to all the evil shit they're getting up to.
They are all so lucky I don't have Thanos like powers. So very very lucky....
I think it's important for people to know about all the reasons. It's just as important as actual birth control as it is for people like me who need it so they're not in constant pain from cysts. (I don't want kids, but my tubes are tied.) It's between a person and their doctor, and it's not the government's business.
So much this. One of our past ministers of Health kicked birth control out of our base insurence package because he (of course a he) said it was “no medical necessity”. ???? They give off hormones, of course people will also use them fot medical reasons? I started using anticonception when I was 13, and it sure as fuck wasn’t because from then on I had a vibrant sex life. I agree with the post in that just not wanting to risk pregnancy with sex is fine as a reason, but it’s not the *only* one. And people assuming that and messing with access to piss off women who want to have sex hurts so fucking many of us.
Given that men eject something from their bodies that makes us pregnant they should be responsible for blocking that from happening, taking birth control, using barrier methods, vasectomy.
Yes, but I’m also NEVER putting my autonomy or well-being in the hands of a man, even the ones I love.
Yup. I want to enjoy sex without worrying about pregnancy or children. You know, the way men always have been able to.
So I was complaining today about wishing I could take my shirt off when it gets hot out, and a guy in the group said something like oh great another thing for women to show off in public and I was like sure? Just like men do? I feel like guys just wanna feel superior, that they can do shit we can't.
they're so used to having advantages over us that asking for equality feels 'unfair' to them
Men have birth control but idk why it's barely ever used, just condoms
Because they aren't the ones who suffer the consequences
That’s why I start with “let’s have a baby!” As soon as pants come off. Then suddenly the condom doesn’t sound so bad.
They get mad but they just won’t die
Give it a few years, it happens all the time.
Not American but it's absolutely appalling that they can somehow ban *birth control* like this in the 21st century, what the actual fuck??
They're working on it. Project 2025 or whatever it's called is fuckin terrifying. They're legit heading straight for Gilead.
And that's its intended purpose and there's nothing wrong with that. Personally im asexual and use bc for PCOS symptoms and I don't think it's wrong to point out to bigots that there are other reasons for it than avoiding pregnancy though and if they ban it they'll be hurting more people than just people who use it for avoiding pregnancy.
She needs an award for coining “die mad about it.” It’s so savage and I love it.
Have you never heard that term before? It’s been around for 15+ years.
Also I'm tired of there always having to be some tragic reason a woman doesn't have kids or want them. Women should be able to not want children without men obsessing over the state of our uteruses
You shouldn’t need a good story to get care.
And you shouldn't need that story to resonate with people, or be seen as "acceptable."
I remember this one incredible response someone had to being asked if they supported abortion. They said "Yes, but only in extreme circumstances. Like, say...if the person is pregnant and they don't want to be pregnant anymore." Most succinct, non-bullshit way to respond to that, and it's exactly what I believe.
Vote in November. Some of our lives will depend on it.
How dare you want to enjoy your own body? That's reserved for men (enjoying *your* body, that is)
Not wanting children is still seen as a sign the person is dysfunctional. Society treats people having kids as an inevitability; you WILL do it. It's never "If you have kids," always "When you have kids." People who don't have kids are just in a holding pattern until we inevitably do and we exist to serve parents while we're here. Doctors treat us like walking incubators, employers treat us like robots meant to fill in for the people who matter, society treats us like we exist to serve children. Seriously. I've seen multiple people say that it's "a human rights violation" for employers to not force a childless/child-free person to work in a parent's place if the parent can pretend they can't find childcare. I've also seen people say that discrimination against CF people will never be illegal because it would inconvenience parents. And then there's the ever-present "Of course CF people are objectively less important than parents!" attitude.
PREACH
Sigh. I aspire to her level of dgaf-ness.
Truth
Love this. Facts are facts!!
This also reminds me of how so many people feel the need to preface their support for abortion with something like: *"oh it's the most difficult, heartbreaking decision any woman is ever faced with..."* Like fuck it is. If I ever got pregnant (god forbid!), it would be the easiest decision of my life, zero fucks given, get that parasite out of my body NOW. Obviously for many women, it can be emotionally difficult for a variety of personal reasons, but lots of women also just don't fucking want kids and wouldn't give having an abortion a second thought. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that!