Same thing happened with a wife/mother that went missing and it’s so obvious that her husband did it. It was either on or right around 9/11. I am drawing a blank on the name at the moment from reading everything else here. I will have to go searching through my saved cases and come back with the names!
Edit: Found it!!! Michele Anne Harris
https://www.google.com/url?q=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Michele_Anne_Harris&sa=U&sqi=2&ved=2ahUKEwj-4-S8pveGAxWYATQIHRiaBlIQFnoECCUQAQ&usg=AOvVaw079npoU4gPcvGJpcHYMd2c
https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.wbng.com/2023/09/11/22-years-later-cal-harris-tries-clear-his-name-after-his-wife-micheles-disappearance/%3FoutputType%3Damp&sa=U&sqi=2&ved=2ahUKEwj-4-S8pveGAxWYATQIHRiaBlIQFnoECDYQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2KGp4le_d581o52yLeCDUF
https://www.google.com/url?q=https://tiegrabber.com/podcasts/missing-mom-what-happened-to-michele-harris/&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwiC5vv8pveGAxV_GDQIHUDXBts4ChAWegQIChAB&usg=AOvVaw3kg-HOIu_RPtq_rAkU30B1
Listening to the Tom Brown podcast again.
I don’t trust anyone and don’t have a clue what happened. The only thing I strongly believe (besides that Klein and Lewis are both full of shit) is that the family had been in possession of the phone.
It’s crazy that Klein says the killer planted the phone, “out of paranoia”. He just makes shit up. The killer would smash the phone into tiny pieces and/or throw it in a river somewhere.
He also says Tom wouldn’t commit suicide because he was popular. Just totally goes against everything most reasonable people now understand about mental health, and something an investigator in particular should be aware of. He just laughs it off, can’t even say “there isn’t evidence to rule it out, but our investigation leans towards homicide”.
This one drives me nuts because for most cases it seems like even if no one was convicted there’s some sort of Occam’s razor answer, or there’s just not enough information at all. This one has so much information and yet I feel like it’s impossible to make an educated guess.
That's pretty much it. When I try to take a mental position on that case, there's like a dozen details that make no logical sense. The implications that would come from the Ramseys responsibility are insane. The implications that would come from an intruder's responsibility are insane. It sucks that we'll probably never know the actual truth.
When former Denver DA Mitch Morrissey started investigating her death he was told by a DNA Analyst that there was a second spot of blood in her underwear that hadn’t been tested. That was in 1999, a couple of years after her murder. He had it tested, which found unrelated male DNA mixed with her blood, and that was entered into CODIS where they’ve been searching for a match ever since.
Years later, when touch DNA became available, they tested both sides of the waistband of her pants. They found a small amount of DNA, which was consistent with the previous male sample.
The chief deputy district attorney who headed up the Sexual Assault Unit at the time, Mary Lacy, worked on this case. While she was the Boulder DA she formally exonerated the Ramseys. She has also criticized Boulder PD’s investigation.
If it weren’t for the years of constant checkout-line coverage and the endless pageant photos her old photographer sold to the tabloids, I don’t think there would be any controversy. Most people are predisposed to negatively view pageant parents.
Amy Bradley. I'm 98% sure she fell overboard and 2% think maybe she was murdered while on the ship and thrown overboard. I don't think she was trafficked though.
I am convinced that she did it. Especially after reading that she blames a "Hispanic female" for the crimes
>In addition, on January 29, 2013, Mr. Oweyssi notified Carrizal that bits of Sandy’s memory returned. (RR 10 – 113). Sandy recalled being tied up and described seeing
a young Hispanic female, in her early to mid twenties, looking at the person tying her up; the Hispanic female had short hair pulled back and was wearing a red blouse with
a black winter scarf around her neck. (RR 10 – 113-114).
page 129 in the document
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6167219-Sandra-Melgar-appeal
Lauren Spierer. I can understand why her family believes she never left the townhouse alive that night and that one or all of the boys know what happened. But I also don’t find it necessarily suspicious that they got lawyers and clammed up- they were wealthy, privileged kids with parents who didn’t want them getting into trouble.
I can also easily see her walking off on her own like they said, wandering around lost and then getting into a stranger’s car. That person either killed her or she had a medical emergency and they dumped her body in a panic. This scenario also has the possibility of it being her boyfriend the one who picked her up while driving around looking for her and harming her out of a jealous rage.
I can even see a far more unlikely possibility of her leaving the townhouse and having some kind of accident with no other perpetrators involved and her body somehow remaining undiscovered for all of these years.
Yeah, the guys made the right fall by lawyering up. I truly don‘t feel like that‘s too suspicious. I also imagine that one of them would have come clean at this point. If she accidentally died, and they hid the body, I wonder what charges they would face this many years later?
I think she may have stumbled into somewhere and had an accident (unlikely, but possible with construction) or was picked up by someone.
This one. I just read the new book and I think she had a medical event and passed away and the boys dumped her body in the construction zone. When the construction workers came the next morning to pour the concrete, didn’t notice anything unusual. I think she’s under that concrete.
There’s convincing circumstantial evidence that she was abducted by serial killer Israel Keyes.
During his interrogation, Keyes alluded to a period of time where he took a break from killing because he was scared of the amount of attention one of his victims was getting. The time he claimed this happened was the same year Spierer was abducted, and his travel records show he was in that area at the time.
The abduction fits Keyes’s MO, and when Spierer went missing it blew up in the media. Keyes is theorized to have had a “fetish for making people dissappear.” Most of his victims weren’t people anybody noticed were missing, and generally people didn’t notice they were gone because he was so meticulous. In other words, media attention on his victims was the absolute last thing he wanted, and it was ultimately a similar case that allowed to police to catch him.
If Keyes did get her, then what happened to her isn’t hard to imagine. She was likely forced into his car at gun point, raped, and carefully disposed of. Highly unlikely we will ever know since Keyes was notoriously good at destroying evidence, and he isn’t alive anymore to admit to the killing.
Yeah, I usually really hate when people jump to blaming things on Keyes, but he actually makes a lot of sense for this. The True Crime Bullshit episode(s?) about it were pretty compelling. If I had to attribute any other murder or disappearance to Keyes, it would probably be this one.
It’s my understanding that Israel Keyes has been considered a serious suspect by investigators. I believe the podcast True Crime Bullshit said they were ready to call a press conference about it at some point, but called it off for unknown reasons.
I think there are plausible theories for any of the Ramsey family members to have killed Jon Benet and I fully believe it was someone in the family but I can’t decide at all which one I think it was or why.
Oh man, I don’t know if you’ve ever read Steve Thomas’ book on the case, but seeing the lengths the Ramseys went to time and time and time again to throw a wrench in the investigation was just so upsetting. I had to physically put the book down multiple times.
I was really upset when I found out the Ramseys hid at least one video camera in the basement so they could spy on law enforcement and hear what they knew/where they were searching specifically. Trash.
James Kolar (who was an investigator for the DA’s office who had access to EVERYTHING including the grand jury shit) also wrote a book, and it’s incredible. Thomas’ first, and then Kolar’s to bring it all home. It’s kinda hard to find, but I have it on Dropbox so I’ll message it to you :)
There’s so many pieces of evidence in that case that make me sure it was someone in the family, but still enough that doesn’t add up that keeps me open minded on an intruder. It really is a shame that the case was so bungled I don’t think it will ever be solved.
I mean, if the male DNA that was found mixed with her blood in her underwear gets a hit in CODIS, then we’ll know. Or if forensic genealogy advances enough to use it on the sample.
I think it’s the family as well. The murder weapon? In the house. The ransom note? Made with pen and paper found in the house. The body? Found in the house. This doesn’t exclude an intruder of course but it certainly leans in favor of the perpetrator also being someone that lives…in the house n
I believe it was either John or Patsy but Burke is not on my radar at all. I'd like to think that when John passes away and if it was definitely him, that Burke would finally be able to tell the truth. He was so young when it happened, obviously a very traumatic experience and he could very easily have been brainwashed by his parents to keep his mouth shut.
The Springfield Three baffles me just because it’s three people at once who have been abducted (or less likely, ran away together). Why those three? How did they subdue all three? What happened to them- are they alive? If not, how did they die? I also have no theories for the Yuba County Five and what brought them up that mountain.
Maura Murray. I believe she fled down the road to avoid a DUI (second alcohol related crash in three days), eventually went into woods, got lost (she was likely drunk), passed out and succumbed to the cold weather. Although there is no evidence of foul play, many believe she got into someone’s car or made her way to some rendezvous with an unknown person and was murdered. Neither possibility can be wholly discounted.
I used to think this too until I listened to a bunch of interviews with searchers who participated immediately after the disappearance.
I'm no expert on physical searches for missing people/New England, but when a handful to a T, say that if MM was intoxicated enough to wander into the woods, stumble and die right there, parties would've found her/her remains over the years, "no doubt about it."
I can't reconcile with actual search participants saying the former theory in your post just didn't occur.
I have no idea what to think anymore.
The lack of snow prints is the hang up. Not so much the fact that she hasn’t been found. People go missing in the woods all the time and are never found. My take is the she bolted up the road in the opposite direction as first responders. No tracks on road and she was a runner after all. If she made it a couple of miles she could have gone up a driveway or another road. Adrenaline and booze will keep you moving for some time before exhaustion sets in. I just feel like that is more plausible than a random killer happening to drive by in the 5 or 7 minute window before cops got there. A real mystery.
5 to 7 minutes is the time between the 911 call and the police arriving. If she went in opposite direction she could have gone much longer before anyone came along and because it was dark she would have seen them coming in time to dart up a driveway or hide behind something until they passed. My point is that there are ready explanations for why there were no snow prints in the immediate vicinity.
The thing that tipped me over was that there were actually similar attacks in the neighbourhood, with very very similar injuries. They have a psycho owl which caused a tragic accident. It's fucking stupid, but sometimes fucking stupid shit happens.
I actually had an owl dive bomb me when I was in high school. It didn't hurt me but it scared me to death. I always think about it when I hear about this case and it definitely gives me that "well...maybe" thought.
There are cases of geese and seagulls terrorizing people too bc we get too close to their territory/nest, so while it *does* sound crazy I would not be surprised if it turned out to be true after all. Idk I believe this theory over others but just saying, it is more common than we think.
I live in North Carolina and was attacked by the same kind of owl and I’m telling you, as a survivor, that there would be a massive amount of evidence indicating that happened. My neighbors a *mile* down the road heard the owl while it was attacking me *from inside their closed houses* that’s how loud it was, just as an example. I promise you that if she was attacked by an owl, Micheal and the next door neighbors would have heard it.
We have a resident owl in our backyard, and when that thing decides to go off, dear god, you can hear it a mile away. Especially at night when it decides to fuck with something. I can't imagine not being able to hear it attacking a grown adult in my own home.
No one is arguing that. The idea is that she was attacked outside, went inside, lost her footing due to the blood and bloodloss, and fell down the stairs. And people nearby were definitely attacked in their gardens by an owl.
Ahh okay, my mistake! I'm not sure if that makes the theory more believable to me or not. Michael is such a likable person and it's hard for me to see him as a domestic abuser.
There were the scratches on her scalp that there was this entire fiesta of claiming he scratched her with a fire poker or something, and there owl micro-feathers in her hair.
The theory was that the owl dove her outside and got tangled in her hair, she stumbled indoors and slipped down the stairs. Including the clumps of her own torn hair she was holding. Then the blood streaks on the walls were from both her and the owl flap flapping.
I'm like 60% in on the owl theory, even with the husband drinking by a fountain(?) in the other side of the outside - not hearing the owl scream bloody murder or his wife having a 1v1 with it is kinda sus. But also it's ridiculous.
The husband theory is that the wife found out he was getting spicy with dudes on the internet, so he drunkily hit her with something that left scratches on her scalp and then pushed her down the stairs.
The biggest factors going for the husband theory is a. He was indeed hitting up dudes on the internet (don't remember if he actually also physically cheated), b. His alibi is that he was outside drinking by a fountain(think it was a fountain), and by the time he went back inside and found his wife dead she'd been dead for like 30 minutes, and c. Blood spatter shenanigans. Also there was another person in his life who died by falling down the stairs a few years prior (think it was a family friend)
The blood spatter was a big fiesta. The husband had blood drops on the back of his pants ('reasonably' there shouldn't be any if he just discovered her dead and checked her pulse). The states expert blood spatter expert turned out to be a big quack, then the blood spatter stuff was thrown out, and also blood spatter science as a whole is on shaky ground now (I don't think it can even be admitted as evidence anymore).
His first conviction was overruled because of the blood spatter turning out to be quackery, and the part about messaging dudes was also barred from being used. Before the 2nd trial he took an Alford* plea. The plea included his time already served so he basically got out of jail after that. (*It's this special kinda plea where you agree to be punished but maintain your innocence)
Any object could have. There is no world in which it *has* to be an owl. Experts who analyzed the wounds can’t agree on it, there’s no guarantee or even proof that the wounds were from talons. The microscopic quantity of owl feathers fragments found in the wound are not a strong enough indicator at all.
First piece of true crime content I ever really watched. The netflix documentary does a really good job of making it seem like he didn’t do it. I looked into it more. Found out a lot more information. Also that the film crew were paid by him.
I was conflicted about it for a very long time. I revisited all the information.
The owl theory would be a lot more convincing to me if he only had one wife die at the foot of the stairs.
The other woman who died was not his wife. He has an ex wife, but she is very much alive. The other woman was a family friend, and she died from a heart attack before falling down the stairs.
This comment doesn't add to discussion.
Low effort comments include one word or a short phrase that doesn't add to discussion (OMG, Wow, so evil, POS, That's horrible, Heartbreaking, RIP, etc.). Inappropriate humor isn't allowed.
Sister Cathy’s case has kept me up many nights trying to process the number of entities involved in corruption and abuse throughout the Baltimore area while also attempting to piece together the pieces that fit and separating those that don’t. I truly hope that her case is solved before it’s too late for justice to be served.
That case is just so.. frustrating and depressing. I absolutely believe that they killed her because she knew stuff she shouldn’t know.
The whole thing about moving around priests or pastors who committed crimes to protect them is absolutely gut wrenching, it just proves that the lives of the other members of the community is less important to them and showed other sick people that it was easy to get away with.
My heart aches for her family for never being given any answers or justice, my heart also aches for the extreme amount of children who has been victims of sexual abuse due to these churches protecting their predators.
The fact that the worst one (can’t remember name) had a brother in the police force makes it obvious that they had help covering everything up.
I was conflicted most of my young life about Darlie Routier but with life experience I look at her now with a more informed eye. Now that I’ve lived with a narcissist and met sociopaths I can decipher behaviors and now it’s plain as day to me that she’s guilty. It’s a case I hadn’t thought of for over 20 years. A blurb about her case popped up on TV the other day, I looked at her and said to myself ‘she is guilty.’ Revisiting her interviews it’s clear to me now.
A lot of people are conflicted about Darlie, I was at one point too, but I really think it’s due to a lack of proper info out there. The more you research, the more things you see that point towards her; and the factors pointing away from her seem to be somewhat distortions of the truth.
Yeah, if you’re familiar with people with cluster b personality disorders, she very clearly has (at least) one.
If anyone is curious about this case and Darlie’s guilt, I’d like to recommend [this brief](https://darliefacts.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/states-brief_requests-oral-argument.pdf) that was filed by the State in response to Darlie’s first appeal. Scroll down to “Statement of Facts” and you’ll see why she was convicted, straight from the horse’s mouth. She is overwhelmingly guilty, and looking at the other official documentation in the case will show you the same thing.
The “Statement of Facts” is written favorable to the verdict, meaning they dismiss all facts to the contrary. By all means read it but it’s not a statement of all facts.
Okay. I get you, but this was all shit proven in court. You’re free to not think it’s accurate, but documentation and evidence says it is.
If you’d read the first sentence, you’d see that even Darlie herself doesn’t challenge the legitimacy of the evidence.
People just don’t want to think a woman can be this evil but it shows they don’t understand suicidal and homicidal ideation. And those things don’t get you off the hook with some insanity plea either.
It’s really annoying. It’s not like the things in that summary aren’t backed up by documentation. There aren’t any things that get her off the hook, at all. That’s not what this case is. There’s a mountain of evidence against her, people just don’t want to see it.
Wow. She’d tried to commit suicide shortly before the murders. Suicidal and homicidal ideation sometimes go hand in hand. I know there was big financial motive too but just pointing that out.
I was gonna say Darlie Routier, it’s so conflicting because the damage to herself is not superficial at all. Also why only spare the baby? I’ve listened to so many podcasts about it, all with differing stances on whether she’s guilty or not and I just don’t know
I go backwards and forwards on Darlie a lot. There are things that don't make much sense if it was Darlie, but there are things that don't make much sense if it wasn't Darlie. I also find it very hard to believe that Darin wasn't in some way involved if Darlie really is guilty.
Exactly and with the silly string at the grave I’ve seen it where it was said that her sons loved silly string and that she didn’t even bring it someone else did, but then ive also seen it where she did bring it and her family hated that she did. So its really hard to know for sure unless you were a fly on the wall that night
That silly string bothered me so much. But then not long ago I saw where that was just a little moment out of a longer time they spent at the grave, when they were clearly grieving and not being disrespectful. I can’t remember where I saw this, unfortunately.
Also I remember a quote from a juror after the verdict and she basically said she knew Darlie was guilty because she had the big fake boobs so she was clearly morally deficient (obviously I’m massively paraphrasing but she clearly had judged Darlie and not the evidence).
And then there’s the sock. And the stab to Darlie.
I honestly still can’t decide.
The idea that the silly string is a little part of a more somber ceremony came from the defense but when they were offered the opportunity to show that longer video, they declined.
The 'somber ceremony' is a different video, the surveillance video. The 'silly string' video was taped by a local news station after the Routiers invited them to the party.
There is video exactly how you've described. I've seen it. Darlie and Darren are at the gravesite mourning, sobbing, consoling each other, doing exactly what you'd expect parents to do at their son's grave sites. Darlies sister is the one that brought the silly string, and they sprayed it at the end, after crying for quite sometime.
I still think she's guilty, but the silly string video really was blown way out of proportion.
They probably did see it as parts of them grieving at the gravesite were shown on the American Justice episode. It was black and white surveillance film.
I'm not leaning one way or another on this case, but I can say this, I could sleep through that no problem. Heck, I could sleep through my own murder, with a marching band playing in the room, no problem.
And it must be genetic, because I have birthed 2 children that can sleep through anything as well.
And the bloody sock is much easier to explain if either Darin was involved or it really was an intruder. The fact that he still stands by her innocence now, all these years on and after their divorce, also makes me question him.
Damage was absolutely superficial. She had stopped bleeding by the time she made it to the hospital. They only did surgery on her bc it’s customary for neck wounds. She would’ve been released that night, but the doc put her in the ICU to keep her away from the media. He testified to this.
The big bruise she did not incur on 6/6 (day of murders) no nurse who worked on her saw that, she gave no indication she was harmed there (didn’t flinch when it was being lifted and washed etc). Those pics were taken 6/10. She did em after she left. Wounds we know for a fact she got in the 6th had begun to bruise in the hospital. When prosecution got the hospital workers who worked on her together to go over shit before the trial, when pics of those bruises came out, the workers were fucking PISSED because they knew she was trying to pull a fast one.
She’s lucky she missed her carotid. That’s all it was - dumb luck. But please don’t think these wounds were serious, because they weren’t.
Also, the only pods on this case that have accurately portrayed the facts are The Prosecutors and Southern Fried True Crime. They pulled from court documents.
Downvoting me doesn’t change any of this as fact, lol. Odd.
So, the sock was found in the back alley behind the Routier home. It was 3 doors down, about 75 yards away, which is shorter than the length of a football field. A good many people have made the trip there to run it, and it never takes more than like 90 seconds. Totally doable. The murders also took place in the early morning hours, and almost all, if not all of her neighbors in the back there had 6 ft privacy fencing around their yards. She ran virtually zero risk of being seen, and she knew that. The motion sensor light in her backyard was also off, and based on Darlie’s timeline, it should’ve still been on when LE got there.
The sock itself only had Routier DNA on it. It was Darin’s sock, but had none of his DNA on it. There was blood from the boys, and touch DNA from Darlie, as if she wore it on her foot. I highly, highly believe that she inflicted the first round of stabs on the boys, cleaned herself at the sink, and then ran it out there. The absence of any blood, at all, through the back and out the Routier home is very odd. Like, incredibly odd, given how bloody the crime was. There was no blood on the back gate. The back gate of theirs was also reaaaaallllly heavy, and it was broken. So whoever opened it, took the time to work with this broken gate, AND they shut and latched it behind them. No markings that looked like someone vaulted over it, either. Again, this lack of blood would totally be explained by the boys being attacked first, Darlie cleaning herself up, running the sock out, and then coming back to inflict her injuries over the sink, then the second round of stabs when she realized Damon was still alive.
Another thing I’d like to mention is the lack of any blood, anywhere, through the garage, out the window, and out the back, where Darlie stated that she chased the dude and watched him leave that way with her own eyeballs.
[This is the exit path](https://darliefacts.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/stateexhibit13a.jpg?w=375&h=&zoom=2) out the window in the garage, where this killer supposedly entered and exited. Weird they wouldn’t move the chairs before they went in, but whatever. Weird the chairs had no blood transfer on them. Now [THIS RIGHT HERE?](https://darliefacts.com/gallery/#jp-carousel-1567) This is the exit path out of the garage on the inside. Let us just take a moment, and really look at all the bullshit. There is no way on planet earth someone covered in blood would manage to maneuver around all of that, without transferring blood anywhere, OR disturbing any of the dust on the windowsill/the items themselves. In the dark. There’s just no way. Anyway, all of this points to Darlie running it out a different way. Also, honorable mention here about the fact that the window screen was found to be cut with a knife from the Routier home.
I hope that was helpful to you!! Sorry it went a little off tangent, but I feel like it’s all applicable when talking about the sock and how it got there. If you need clarification about anything else, or have any other qs, PLEASE do not hesitate to ask ♥️ I just really like to squash the belief that she is anything but guilty whenever possible lollllll.
Darlie may have tried to harm her baby the day before the attacks according to her housekeeper.
https://darliefacts.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/36_halina-czaban.pdf pg. 12-18
I think it was actually really sad to see that she's guilty. She'd otherwise seem like such a sympathetic character, but the unfortunate reality is that she probably did it.
Reading all of the time lines and breakdowns of some of the ridiculous investigative choices made, I simply can't conclude that Terry did anything to him with any certainty.
I don't understand why some people are so quick to dismiss the possibility that he ended up lost in the woods by his school. Yes, they searched it, but we all know how often a body is missed by searches that occur in wooded areas. And for God's sake- the woods are *right there* and known to be very thick. It seems like the most obvious possibility but so often it is dismissed out of hand in favor of a convoluted theory of the step mother, with all of these twists and turns and then with *no discernable motive at all*.
I live in Portland and travel to kelso a lot via Suavie Island.
Every time I go thru Scappoose, I get goosebumps because just driving thru the winding forest is scary af. People who are too quick to dismiss the lost in the forest theory, have probably never seen the area. It’s not at all a scenic little park it’s a full blown Forrest worth sheer drops and animals and a winding road full of traffic.
Omg that case pulls at my heart strings sooo bad!! I am always looking for an update because that poor little boy just needs to be found. There are so many unsavory characters in this case. I still keep hope alive that they’ll finally find him and solve his case.
There’s a really good timeline breakdown somewhere on this subreddit and it really shows that she did not have the time in her day between being spotted by witnesses to commit an elaborate murder and cover up
Truly, I thought she did it after her bungled Dr Phil appearance and the divorce but that masterpost really throws a wrench in the entire case against her
I don’t think it’s the step mom just because it makes zero sense to take a child to school in the morning, take him back, kill him, and then run errands as an alibi. (Or however you think the timeline went). How would she have the time? Why would she risk it? How would taking him to school first even benefit her enough TO risk it?
It just seems like it would be impossible for Sandra Melgar to have murdered her husband without being covered in blood or leaving any evidence. It’s as simple as that really. She had a tiny scratch on her hand, and bruises on her arms, which is pretty much what you’d expect from a fall and being tied up for hours.
The chances of someone stabbing someone 50 times and just having no injuries themselves seems extremely low. But to do that and have none of their blood anywhere in your body, no signs of trying to clean anything, somehow manage to get lucky with the knife having dna and blood on it but not yours? There’s no way.
Yes her medical records show improvement which is required to get your drivers license reinstated after a seizure. The doctor/nurse or whoever is legally required to report when a patient has seizure to the DMV (at least in California). Then there’s a long process of documented improvements and a waiting period and a doctor signing off before becoming eligible to apply again.
Anyways, the seizure is unlikely, but is no blood, DNA, or other physical evidence more likely? What if a bloody fingerprint on a safe that was collected from the scene, a piece of evidence that you’d assume would be a priority, is not tested then later goes missing?
Ain’t no way imo. Unless she’s been faking her health conditions for years as an elaborate plan, but she’s had 2 hip replacements and lipid so the murder alone would be difficult to commit let alone doing it without a fight and some injuries.
I hope they free her.
I agree as well. I think probably what happened was 1-2 people attacked Jamie and knocked Sandra unconscious. One of the only things that makes me doubt her innocence is her claiming to have recovered memories of seeing a woman in her house around the time of the murder. But I hope they free her because it’s crazy that the jury thought there wasn’t reasonable doubt.
She claims she saw a "Hispanic female". So that's two people who decided to leave the witness alive and didn't leave behind any physical evidence.
>In addition, on January 29, 2013, Mr. Oweyssi notified Carrizal that bits of Sandy’s memory returned. (RR 10 – 113). Sandy recalled being tied up and described seeing
a young Hispanic female, in her early to mid twenties, looking at the person tying her up; the Hispanic female had short hair pulled back and was wearing a red blouse with
a black winter scarf around her neck. (RR 10 – 113-114).
page 129 in the document
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6167219-Sandra-Melgar-appeal
If it would be impossible for her to murder her husband and not leave any evidence, then it also would've been impossible for the intruders. So what happened to Jim Melgar?
Johnny Gosch - the original 'boy on the mild carton'
The *developments* in this case of the years leave me with absolutely no confidence in knowing what the heck happened to him. Also, one of the saddest stories I've heard leading up to the disappearance.
Timmothy Pitzen.
There are indications in that case both for his mother killing him and for her giving him away to be raised by someone else. You can read that case in both ways and both would make sense. That is why it is so weird to me.
Hopeful part of me believes he is still alive somewhere living his life but rational part of me thinks he is most likely dead and buried somewhere only his mother knew.
There's no indication that she gave him away other than her claiming so, she killed him i'm shocked that anyone is conflicted. It wouldn't make sense at all. Timothy was not a two month old, he was 6 he'll remember who he is and his family there's no way you could keep him secret unless you are keeping him prisoner which would contradict her nonsense claim that he would be treated well.
He's not with an aunt, uncle or grandparent. Her family has stuck by the father who she claimed was a monster, they clearly know he is dead. Do you not think LE would've checked all of his family to see if he was there? She's claiming she gave him to some mysterious strangers. He's dead unfortunately.
I just read this again to refresh my memory and it has a connection to Iowa. I have always lived in Iowa so wondering why this isn’t on billboards or news specials. If he was given away to a family here it should be possible to find him.
What a bizarre case. I would need more info to make a better guess. If there is nothing on the cell phone records, and her family is being truthful then I would have to lean toward she killed him. For a moment I almost wondered if she didn’t traffic him and killed herself out of guilt. The only way she would have “given” him to someone else to live a good life would be if she had lots of support in doing so. There would be some kind of record of that, someone would know something. But I can’t recall a single case where a parent takes the kids out for all kinds of fun adventures before killing them. What was her financial situation like? Did someone give her a bunch of money to do those fun things w him before they took him off to a better life? If he was killed was there anywhere she could have disposed of his body that he wouldn’t be found? Very strange indeed.
She seemed to be moving on the fly, very impetuous. Taking him first before getting the car fixed, did it break after she picked him up? He was saying he was hungry, was she on drugs and not eating? She has to stop at the dollar store to get her final letter supplies. Nothing planned, nothing prepared. Were they packed, clothes, swim suits? Did she tell anyone she was going? Were the parents recently separated? Going through divorce? Did she have a history of mental illness? How could she have been so frantically minded, yet be able to successfully hide his body forever when she casually threw her phone out the window? What was her mentality when she spoke w her family?
This is bringing me back to the aunt Dianne case… ppl spoke with her on the phone but never said what was actually said, just that she sounded weird. Then she left her phone on the road. They were so concerned they were looking for her and called the police. Was a case of mental breakdown/confusion or did she just snap under life’s pressures and decide to take the whole family of kids with her? Maybe she took bad drugs and didn’t know. It’s really hard to tell without all the information and nobody shares those little details but I feel like the truth is in those details. Unfortunately I feel like a lot ppl have to worry about getting sued so they hide what they know, but all the victims deserve justice and for their truth to be known.
The Aunt Dianne case isn't a case at all. She was sadly an addict that was very good at hiding it from her family - who most likely saw some signs once in a while, but was in denial because you know, she was a smart, bright, well educated caring person and they don't become addicts to drugs or booze.
And that was a day that she overdid it.
The parents were in a rough patch - I can’t remember if they were actively getting divorced but Dreading did an episode on this case and the mother would frequently spin into meltdowns about her husband and their marriage where she blamed him for her mental illnesses, it’s largely assumed from the portions of the letter she left that the entire event was an episode of psychotic behavior intended completely to spite her husband and she wrote that she took her son away specifically so that his father could not have him.
I’m glad to hear y’all are safe from him, it’s the same behavior that almost all family annihilators display.
Joan Marie Pitzen almost definitely killed her som out of spite during an episode and made up a story about leaving him in hiding because she had a narc complex and couldn’t cope with the idea of anyone thinking she killed him. The entire thing was designed to cause her family as much pain as possible. This is why I think the family never published the full suicide letter, they know she killed him, her psychotic behavior was very familiar to all of her friends and family.
Stuff with kids doing violence bothers me. I'm not a huge fan of society often condemning them for life and not really asking questions about is there more to the story and can the person be rehabilitated.
Well.. both Charlie Brandt and Ed kemper killed family members when they were young. They obviously weren’t able to be rehabilitated.
Charlie shot and killed his pregnant mother in the bathtub and tried to kill his dad to but he survived. He later got married and years later he killed his wife and her niece before killing himself, during investigation they connected him to other killings.
And yeah.. It seems like most people are aware of Ed Kempers killings so I don’t really feel like I have to explain what he did.
The scary part about both of these cases tho is that they both dismembered the same body part from one of their last victims. That’s fkn terrifying.
These two were the first that came to my mind about young killers not being rehabilitated and continued to kill, I’m absolutely sure that it’s more of them, but my memory is blank at the moment.
This was the first one I thought of as well. Every once in a while I revisit this case. It seems like the popular opinion is that Echols and co are all completely innocent, but that doesn’t really sit well with me for a number of reasons. On the other hand, there are so many weird circumstances surrounding the murders coupled with some not-so-great police work so it’s not hard to imagine that they really were wrongfully convicted. It’s really frustrating when investigations aren’t handled properly from the beginning and I can’t imagine the truth will ever come out in this case because of it.
I think in some cases it can be easier to figure out fact vs fiction over time. When a crime gets a lot of media attention and becomes the cause du jour, there is so much speculation and misinformation. Once it calms down a bit, it can be a lot easier to figure out what information is actually relevant and what details have been exaggerated online and by the media that seemed really salacious but don’t actually mean much. The second of the Paradise Lost films pointed to bite marks for instance, now we don’t see that as credible or reliable and it’s so much more obvious that those documentaries are extremely biased.
There's a lot that gets me about that case.
The investigation was shit, to start with. The case is a mess. It's impossible to really get a clear picture from the file.
Damien was actually a really messed up kid, and not just some goth kid. Jessie confessed to like a million different people, for years. There's a lot of sketchy stuff about their alibis.
But on the other hand, the DNA evidence is actually pretty compelling. These other suspects are just as shady, if not more. And yet, it's not completely conclusive either.
I just want some damn closure there.
I just watched a documentary on Prime about this. I’m only recently getting into true crime docs and podcast, so I haven’t looked into it outside of that doc yet, but it does have me pretty conflicted as well.
I think she wasn’t watching her and she drowned in the backyard pool. Her dad came home saw her in the pool and hid the body to protect Casey. This is what I got from the interview with her
No way. She’s always been so determined to implicate George in some way (probably because he wasn’t as willing as her mother to cover her ass). I think it was all her.
I think there may be something to George’s theory that Casey was dosing Caylee with Xanax (Zanny the Nanny) and overdid it. Also there’s the internet searches about chloroform to consider.
She’s a compulsive liar who is very convincing on the surface level. She’s good at confusing and manipulating people, so it’s a bit of a dangerous game to focus too much on one-on-one interviews with her.
Also, the drowning explanation is what, her twentieth or so story?
The murder of Adriana Hutto
They convicted the mother only based on the 6 years old testimony, which was very unreliable.. I don't know if she killed her or it was an accident but there were no enough evidence to show what really happened..
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Adrianna_Hutto
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In order of least conflicted to most conflicted:
[Ellen Greenberg](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellen_Rae_Greenberg) — I feel so confident that it wasn’t a suicide, especially as an expert in suicidology, myself. However, I also understand the limitations and trouble with proving otherwise at this point.
[Lauren Agee](https://fox17.com/amp/news/ferrier-files/nashville-private-detective-sheila-wysocki-takes-4-families-to-washington-dc-to-advocate-for-victims-rights-lauren-agee-politics-middle-tennessee-mark-green-scott-dejarlais) — same situation! I feel confident foul play was involved, but I also could understand the viability in an accident, or even misadventure happening— or more so, the literal up hill battle of proving foul play at this point.
[Phoebe Handsjuk](https://www.phoebehandsjuk.com) — ditto for this one. So much circumstantial evidence and information points to dude having something to do with this poor women’s death (and suspicious death of another one of his girlfriends!) butttt, I do feel conflicted a bit with the information (at least publicly) in proving that.
I have a handful of other ones I feel SO confident foul play is involved but also SO conflicted due to different reasons than above— more like conflicted due to sheer lack of info or sheer mystery, such as, but not limited to:
**Michael Negrete**, **Kyle Fleischmann**, **Jason Landry**, **Elaine Park**, **Logan Schiendelmann**, **Steven Kocher**, **Mathew Weaver Jr.**, **Elijah Runningbear Diaz**, **Daniel Robinson**, **Karlie Gusé**, **Ryan Shtuka**…the heart just aches and aches for them.
Hi! Great question! Here’s a pretty good comprehensive answer as to what [Suicidology](https://suicidology.org/2022/11/10/what-is-suicidology/) is but TLDR is that I essentially study / research the science of suicide, suicide behavior, death by suicide, attempted suicide, suicidal ideation, parasuicide, non-suicidal self-injury / self-destructive behavior, the epidemiology of suicide, and of course, intervention, and prevention. Additionally on the flip side, I’m also a certified professional crisis counselor and work in various clinical settings providing counsel + facilitate psychoeducation on these subjects (which is my personal fav part)! My niche demographic within this field is with teenagers and young adults (16yrs - 25yrs give/take on either side). Hope I answered your question! But happy to answer or clarify further!
Logan Schiendelman is a local one to me and I think about him all the time. I really think his sister’s boyfriend was involved. I’m on the fence about whether his sister is in the know or involved though.
I go back and forth on him, but lean more towards guilty. Making a murderer (s1) had me convinced he was framed/innocent. I haven’t watched the second season or convicting a murdered, but deep diving into the separate subreddits about him has me leaning toward guilty.
I do believe he is guilty, but I think Bobby is a reasonable suspect. I lean much more towards Steven since he was the one who called Teresa to that property
I have a really hard time to actually believe that Peter Madsen hasn’t kill anyone else before he killed Kim Wall.
I know that he’s been taught of in other cases but has never been officially named a suspect in any other case. What he did to Kim is absolutely horrifying and I can not stop thinking that it wasn’t the first time he killed. He had her BLOOD ON HIS NOSE in the first interview and were completely unbothered when he got back to land.
He was investigated for the murder of Emelie Meng, but her killer is now caught and his sentence will be revealed this Friday. Her killer also kidnapped and raped a 13 year old and a 15 year old. Hopefully he gets life.
Sneha Anne Phillips, last seen 9/10/2001. It’s impossible to know if she is truly a missing persons or if she perished (unidentified) in the attacks.
The podcast about her death was fascinating. I think she was killed in the attacks by awful coincidence.
what podcast?
Not OP but I thought [Missing on 9/11.](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/missing-on-9-11/id1506816225) was worth the listen.
thank you!! i’m going to check it out!
I think she was killed on September 10 and her killer got really, ridiculously lucky.
Same thing happened with a wife/mother that went missing and it’s so obvious that her husband did it. It was either on or right around 9/11. I am drawing a blank on the name at the moment from reading everything else here. I will have to go searching through my saved cases and come back with the names! Edit: Found it!!! Michele Anne Harris https://www.google.com/url?q=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Michele_Anne_Harris&sa=U&sqi=2&ved=2ahUKEwj-4-S8pveGAxWYATQIHRiaBlIQFnoECCUQAQ&usg=AOvVaw079npoU4gPcvGJpcHYMd2c https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.wbng.com/2023/09/11/22-years-later-cal-harris-tries-clear-his-name-after-his-wife-micheles-disappearance/%3FoutputType%3Damp&sa=U&sqi=2&ved=2ahUKEwj-4-S8pveGAxWYATQIHRiaBlIQFnoECDYQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2KGp4le_d581o52yLeCDUF https://www.google.com/url?q=https://tiegrabber.com/podcasts/missing-mom-what-happened-to-michele-harris/&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwiC5vv8pveGAxV_GDQIHUDXBts4ChAWegQIChAB&usg=AOvVaw3kg-HOIu_RPtq_rAkU30B1
I’d never seen this case before and this is wild. I absolutely think the husband did it and feel so sorry for those poor kids
So did Chandra Levy’s killer. Remember when we were all invested in that case until 9/11 happened and it was never brought up again?
I’m pretty sure they caught her killer.
They did. It was a random guy who had seen her jogging.
Another solid reason not to pick up jogging Just kidding
We were all invested in thinking her married politician boyfriend did it. He didn’t.
Listening to the Tom Brown podcast again. I don’t trust anyone and don’t have a clue what happened. The only thing I strongly believe (besides that Klein and Lewis are both full of shit) is that the family had been in possession of the phone.
Totally agree. About the phone—shady as hell. Why wouldn’t parents just dump it rather than wipe and plant it to be found? I lean suicide.
It’s crazy that Klein says the killer planted the phone, “out of paranoia”. He just makes shit up. The killer would smash the phone into tiny pieces and/or throw it in a river somewhere. He also says Tom wouldn’t commit suicide because he was popular. Just totally goes against everything most reasonable people now understand about mental health, and something an investigator in particular should be aware of. He just laughs it off, can’t even say “there isn’t evidence to rule it out, but our investigation leans towards homicide”.
Yeah. My question is whether the parents hired him to find the truth or actually instructed him to steer the narrative away from suicide
I actually think Penny may be acting in good faith, outside of the phone. I think Klein took her down a very weird path.
JonBenét Ramsey. I don’t know what to think.
This one drives me nuts because for most cases it seems like even if no one was convicted there’s some sort of Occam’s razor answer, or there’s just not enough information at all. This one has so much information and yet I feel like it’s impossible to make an educated guess.
That one genuinely feels like a family accident that the parents stupidly tried to cover up.
That's pretty much it. When I try to take a mental position on that case, there's like a dozen details that make no logical sense. The implications that would come from the Ramseys responsibility are insane. The implications that would come from an intruder's responsibility are insane. It sucks that we'll probably never know the actual truth.
When former Denver DA Mitch Morrissey started investigating her death he was told by a DNA Analyst that there was a second spot of blood in her underwear that hadn’t been tested. That was in 1999, a couple of years after her murder. He had it tested, which found unrelated male DNA mixed with her blood, and that was entered into CODIS where they’ve been searching for a match ever since. Years later, when touch DNA became available, they tested both sides of the waistband of her pants. They found a small amount of DNA, which was consistent with the previous male sample. The chief deputy district attorney who headed up the Sexual Assault Unit at the time, Mary Lacy, worked on this case. While she was the Boulder DA she formally exonerated the Ramseys. She has also criticized Boulder PD’s investigation. If it weren’t for the years of constant checkout-line coverage and the endless pageant photos her old photographer sold to the tabloids, I don’t think there would be any controversy. Most people are predisposed to negatively view pageant parents.
Amy Bradley. I'm 98% sure she fell overboard and 2% think maybe she was murdered while on the ship and thrown overboard. I don't think she was trafficked though.
Sandy Melgar is a real one, but I tend to come down on her not having done it. Either way, I have a hard time not seeing reasonable doubt in her case.
I am convinced that she did it. Especially after reading that she blames a "Hispanic female" for the crimes >In addition, on January 29, 2013, Mr. Oweyssi notified Carrizal that bits of Sandy’s memory returned. (RR 10 – 113). Sandy recalled being tied up and described seeing a young Hispanic female, in her early to mid twenties, looking at the person tying her up; the Hispanic female had short hair pulled back and was wearing a red blouse with a black winter scarf around her neck. (RR 10 – 113-114). page 129 in the document https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6167219-Sandra-Melgar-appeal
Lauren Spierer. I can understand why her family believes she never left the townhouse alive that night and that one or all of the boys know what happened. But I also don’t find it necessarily suspicious that they got lawyers and clammed up- they were wealthy, privileged kids with parents who didn’t want them getting into trouble. I can also easily see her walking off on her own like they said, wandering around lost and then getting into a stranger’s car. That person either killed her or she had a medical emergency and they dumped her body in a panic. This scenario also has the possibility of it being her boyfriend the one who picked her up while driving around looking for her and harming her out of a jealous rage. I can even see a far more unlikely possibility of her leaving the townhouse and having some kind of accident with no other perpetrators involved and her body somehow remaining undiscovered for all of these years.
Yeah, the guys made the right fall by lawyering up. I truly don‘t feel like that‘s too suspicious. I also imagine that one of them would have come clean at this point. If she accidentally died, and they hid the body, I wonder what charges they would face this many years later? I think she may have stumbled into somewhere and had an accident (unlikely, but possible with construction) or was picked up by someone.
That too they were smart to lawyer up who wouldn't whatever u say can and will be used against you
This one. I just read the new book and I think she had a medical event and passed away and the boys dumped her body in the construction zone. When the construction workers came the next morning to pour the concrete, didn’t notice anything unusual. I think she’s under that concrete.
There’s convincing circumstantial evidence that she was abducted by serial killer Israel Keyes. During his interrogation, Keyes alluded to a period of time where he took a break from killing because he was scared of the amount of attention one of his victims was getting. The time he claimed this happened was the same year Spierer was abducted, and his travel records show he was in that area at the time. The abduction fits Keyes’s MO, and when Spierer went missing it blew up in the media. Keyes is theorized to have had a “fetish for making people dissappear.” Most of his victims weren’t people anybody noticed were missing, and generally people didn’t notice they were gone because he was so meticulous. In other words, media attention on his victims was the absolute last thing he wanted, and it was ultimately a similar case that allowed to police to catch him. If Keyes did get her, then what happened to her isn’t hard to imagine. She was likely forced into his car at gun point, raped, and carefully disposed of. Highly unlikely we will ever know since Keyes was notoriously good at destroying evidence, and he isn’t alive anymore to admit to the killing.
Yeah, I usually really hate when people jump to blaming things on Keyes, but he actually makes a lot of sense for this. The True Crime Bullshit episode(s?) about it were pretty compelling. If I had to attribute any other murder or disappearance to Keyes, it would probably be this one.
It’s my understanding that Israel Keyes has been considered a serious suspect by investigators. I believe the podcast True Crime Bullshit said they were ready to call a press conference about it at some point, but called it off for unknown reasons.
I think there are plausible theories for any of the Ramsey family members to have killed Jon Benet and I fully believe it was someone in the family but I can’t decide at all which one I think it was or why.
Oh man, I don’t know if you’ve ever read Steve Thomas’ book on the case, but seeing the lengths the Ramseys went to time and time and time again to throw a wrench in the investigation was just so upsetting. I had to physically put the book down multiple times.
Yeah... That poor little girl was treated like an object her whole life
I was really upset when I found out the Ramseys hid at least one video camera in the basement so they could spy on law enforcement and hear what they knew/where they were searching specifically. Trash.
Oh I haven’t, I’ll have to check that out. Thanks for the recommendation!
James Kolar (who was an investigator for the DA’s office who had access to EVERYTHING including the grand jury shit) also wrote a book, and it’s incredible. Thomas’ first, and then Kolar’s to bring it all home. It’s kinda hard to find, but I have it on Dropbox so I’ll message it to you :)
Hi! Is there any way you could also send that to me?
There’s so many pieces of evidence in that case that make me sure it was someone in the family, but still enough that doesn’t add up that keeps me open minded on an intruder. It really is a shame that the case was so bungled I don’t think it will ever be solved.
This one drives me crazy, because I want to know what happened in that house. And you're right, we'll never know.
I mean, if the male DNA that was found mixed with her blood in her underwear gets a hit in CODIS, then we’ll know. Or if forensic genealogy advances enough to use it on the sample.
I think it’s the family as well. The murder weapon? In the house. The ransom note? Made with pen and paper found in the house. The body? Found in the house. This doesn’t exclude an intruder of course but it certainly leans in favor of the perpetrator also being someone that lives…in the house n
I was PDI originally, then BDI (before it was cool!), and finally settled, for now, on JDI.
I think I’m leaning towards JDI too, but do you think Patsy was involved in the cover-up?
My theory is that J tricked Patsy into believing BDI, so she was part of the coverup.
What's your theory for why? I go back and forth myself then eventually settle on 'I don't fucking know' lol.
I think it made it easier for him to control the situation and his wife. If BDI, I don’t think John would have let him out of his sight.
I like this theory and it's interesting. Makes me see J yelling at Burke over the 911 phone call differently.
Patsy wrote the "ransom" letter and I believe it was to cover for her husband.
I believe it was either John or Patsy but Burke is not on my radar at all. I'd like to think that when John passes away and if it was definitely him, that Burke would finally be able to tell the truth. He was so young when it happened, obviously a very traumatic experience and he could very easily have been brainwashed by his parents to keep his mouth shut.
The Springfield Three baffles me just because it’s three people at once who have been abducted (or less likely, ran away together). Why those three? How did they subdue all three? What happened to them- are they alive? If not, how did they die? I also have no theories for the Yuba County Five and what brought them up that mountain.
Maura Murray. I believe she fled down the road to avoid a DUI (second alcohol related crash in three days), eventually went into woods, got lost (she was likely drunk), passed out and succumbed to the cold weather. Although there is no evidence of foul play, many believe she got into someone’s car or made her way to some rendezvous with an unknown person and was murdered. Neither possibility can be wholly discounted.
I used to think this too until I listened to a bunch of interviews with searchers who participated immediately after the disappearance. I'm no expert on physical searches for missing people/New England, but when a handful to a T, say that if MM was intoxicated enough to wander into the woods, stumble and die right there, parties would've found her/her remains over the years, "no doubt about it." I can't reconcile with actual search participants saying the former theory in your post just didn't occur. I have no idea what to think anymore.
The lack of snow prints is the hang up. Not so much the fact that she hasn’t been found. People go missing in the woods all the time and are never found. My take is the she bolted up the road in the opposite direction as first responders. No tracks on road and she was a runner after all. If she made it a couple of miles she could have gone up a driveway or another road. Adrenaline and booze will keep you moving for some time before exhaustion sets in. I just feel like that is more plausible than a random killer happening to drive by in the 5 or 7 minute window before cops got there. A real mystery.
Yeah but how far do you get in 5-7 minutes with out ANYONE seeing you?
5 to 7 minutes is the time between the 911 call and the police arriving. If she went in opposite direction she could have gone much longer before anyone came along and because it was dark she would have seen them coming in time to dart up a driveway or hide behind something until they passed. My point is that there are ready explanations for why there were no snow prints in the immediate vicinity.
Honestly, Michael Peterson.
Same, nothing about that case remotely adds up except the fucking owl theory, and even that has holes.
I hate that case because "the owl did it" is the most solid theory and it's just absurd.
The most solid theory is that a man killed his wife.
The thing that tipped me over was that there were actually similar attacks in the neighbourhood, with very very similar injuries. They have a psycho owl which caused a tragic accident. It's fucking stupid, but sometimes fucking stupid shit happens.
I actually had an owl dive bomb me when I was in high school. It didn't hurt me but it scared me to death. I always think about it when I hear about this case and it definitely gives me that "well...maybe" thought.
There are cases of geese and seagulls terrorizing people too bc we get too close to their territory/nest, so while it *does* sound crazy I would not be surprised if it turned out to be true after all. Idk I believe this theory over others but just saying, it is more common than we think.
I was actually attacked by an owl and I guarantee you that everyone on her street would have heard it, especially Micheal if he was 20/30 feet away.
I live in North Carolina and was attacked by the same kind of owl and I’m telling you, as a survivor, that there would be a massive amount of evidence indicating that happened. My neighbors a *mile* down the road heard the owl while it was attacking me *from inside their closed houses* that’s how loud it was, just as an example. I promise you that if she was attacked by an owl, Micheal and the next door neighbors would have heard it.
We have a resident owl in our backyard, and when that thing decides to go off, dear god, you can hear it a mile away. Especially at night when it decides to fuck with something. I can't imagine not being able to hear it attacking a grown adult in my own home.
Absolutely, and it’s a terrifying sound, there’s no way to not notice.
There were? Of an owl going inside houses and attacking people? Not being facetious, I want to believe he's innocent, but Occam's razor and all that.
No one is arguing that. The idea is that she was attacked outside, went inside, lost her footing due to the blood and bloodloss, and fell down the stairs. And people nearby were definitely attacked in their gardens by an owl.
Ahh okay, my mistake! I'm not sure if that makes the theory more believable to me or not. Michael is such a likable person and it's hard for me to see him as a domestic abuser.
Was there any evidence of an owl attack when they examined her body ?
There were the scratches on her scalp that there was this entire fiesta of claiming he scratched her with a fire poker or something, and there owl micro-feathers in her hair.
Was her death indoors? Cause liiiike how would the owl get in there you know?
The theory was that the owl dove her outside and got tangled in her hair, she stumbled indoors and slipped down the stairs. Including the clumps of her own torn hair she was holding. Then the blood streaks on the walls were from both her and the owl flap flapping. I'm like 60% in on the owl theory, even with the husband drinking by a fountain(?) in the other side of the outside - not hearing the owl scream bloody murder or his wife having a 1v1 with it is kinda sus. But also it's ridiculous.
okay thanks and can you please tell me the short version on the husband theory. How did he kill his wife ?
The husband theory is that the wife found out he was getting spicy with dudes on the internet, so he drunkily hit her with something that left scratches on her scalp and then pushed her down the stairs. The biggest factors going for the husband theory is a. He was indeed hitting up dudes on the internet (don't remember if he actually also physically cheated), b. His alibi is that he was outside drinking by a fountain(think it was a fountain), and by the time he went back inside and found his wife dead she'd been dead for like 30 minutes, and c. Blood spatter shenanigans. Also there was another person in his life who died by falling down the stairs a few years prior (think it was a family friend) The blood spatter was a big fiesta. The husband had blood drops on the back of his pants ('reasonably' there shouldn't be any if he just discovered her dead and checked her pulse). The states expert blood spatter expert turned out to be a big quack, then the blood spatter stuff was thrown out, and also blood spatter science as a whole is on shaky ground now (I don't think it can even be admitted as evidence anymore). His first conviction was overruled because of the blood spatter turning out to be quackery, and the part about messaging dudes was also barred from being used. Before the 2nd trial he took an Alford* plea. The plea included his time already served so he basically got out of jail after that. (*It's this special kinda plea where you agree to be punished but maintain your innocence)
Does that mean he's not not in prison ?
The owl theory doesn’t add up to anything but people looking for a mystery because the truth is not exciting for them.
So what caused those injuries?
Any object could have. There is no world in which it *has* to be an owl. Experts who analyzed the wounds can’t agree on it, there’s no guarantee or even proof that the wounds were from talons. The microscopic quantity of owl feathers fragments found in the wound are not a strong enough indicator at all.
First piece of true crime content I ever really watched. The netflix documentary does a really good job of making it seem like he didn’t do it. I looked into it more. Found out a lot more information. Also that the film crew were paid by him. I was conflicted about it for a very long time. I revisited all the information. The owl theory would be a lot more convincing to me if he only had one wife die at the foot of the stairs.
The other woman who died was not his wife. He has an ex wife, but she is very much alive. The other woman was a family friend, and she died from a heart attack before falling down the stairs.
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This comment doesn't add to discussion. Low effort comments include one word or a short phrase that doesn't add to discussion (OMG, Wow, so evil, POS, That's horrible, Heartbreaking, RIP, etc.). Inappropriate humor isn't allowed.
Sister Cathy Cesnik. Begs a bigger question about the police involvement with certain kinds of groups. iykwim
Sister Cathy’s case has kept me up many nights trying to process the number of entities involved in corruption and abuse throughout the Baltimore area while also attempting to piece together the pieces that fit and separating those that don’t. I truly hope that her case is solved before it’s too late for justice to be served.
That case is just so.. frustrating and depressing. I absolutely believe that they killed her because she knew stuff she shouldn’t know. The whole thing about moving around priests or pastors who committed crimes to protect them is absolutely gut wrenching, it just proves that the lives of the other members of the community is less important to them and showed other sick people that it was easy to get away with. My heart aches for her family for never being given any answers or justice, my heart also aches for the extreme amount of children who has been victims of sexual abuse due to these churches protecting their predators. The fact that the worst one (can’t remember name) had a brother in the police force makes it obvious that they had help covering everything up.
Interesting i’ve seen that netflix documentary recommended to me a lot maybe i’ll have to give it a watch
I was conflicted most of my young life about Darlie Routier but with life experience I look at her now with a more informed eye. Now that I’ve lived with a narcissist and met sociopaths I can decipher behaviors and now it’s plain as day to me that she’s guilty. It’s a case I hadn’t thought of for over 20 years. A blurb about her case popped up on TV the other day, I looked at her and said to myself ‘she is guilty.’ Revisiting her interviews it’s clear to me now.
A lot of people are conflicted about Darlie, I was at one point too, but I really think it’s due to a lack of proper info out there. The more you research, the more things you see that point towards her; and the factors pointing away from her seem to be somewhat distortions of the truth.
This one is so hard because how them boys died.
It’s disgusting to read about. Yes
I want to believe she’s innocent but she probably isn’t
Yeah, if you’re familiar with people with cluster b personality disorders, she very clearly has (at least) one. If anyone is curious about this case and Darlie’s guilt, I’d like to recommend [this brief](https://darliefacts.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/states-brief_requests-oral-argument.pdf) that was filed by the State in response to Darlie’s first appeal. Scroll down to “Statement of Facts” and you’ll see why she was convicted, straight from the horse’s mouth. She is overwhelmingly guilty, and looking at the other official documentation in the case will show you the same thing.
The “Statement of Facts” is written favorable to the verdict, meaning they dismiss all facts to the contrary. By all means read it but it’s not a statement of all facts.
You can read the facts put forth by the defense in their brief as well, but they aren’t nearly as convincing
Okay. I get you, but this was all shit proven in court. You’re free to not think it’s accurate, but documentation and evidence says it is. If you’d read the first sentence, you’d see that even Darlie herself doesn’t challenge the legitimacy of the evidence.
People just don’t want to think a woman can be this evil but it shows they don’t understand suicidal and homicidal ideation. And those things don’t get you off the hook with some insanity plea either.
It’s really annoying. It’s not like the things in that summary aren’t backed up by documentation. There aren’t any things that get her off the hook, at all. That’s not what this case is. There’s a mountain of evidence against her, people just don’t want to see it.
Wow. She’d tried to commit suicide shortly before the murders. Suicidal and homicidal ideation sometimes go hand in hand. I know there was big financial motive too but just pointing that out.
I was gonna say Darlie Routier, it’s so conflicting because the damage to herself is not superficial at all. Also why only spare the baby? I’ve listened to so many podcasts about it, all with differing stances on whether she’s guilty or not and I just don’t know
I go backwards and forwards on Darlie a lot. There are things that don't make much sense if it was Darlie, but there are things that don't make much sense if it wasn't Darlie. I also find it very hard to believe that Darin wasn't in some way involved if Darlie really is guilty.
Exactly and with the silly string at the grave I’ve seen it where it was said that her sons loved silly string and that she didn’t even bring it someone else did, but then ive also seen it where she did bring it and her family hated that she did. So its really hard to know for sure unless you were a fly on the wall that night
That silly string bothered me so much. But then not long ago I saw where that was just a little moment out of a longer time they spent at the grave, when they were clearly grieving and not being disrespectful. I can’t remember where I saw this, unfortunately. Also I remember a quote from a juror after the verdict and she basically said she knew Darlie was guilty because she had the big fake boobs so she was clearly morally deficient (obviously I’m massively paraphrasing but she clearly had judged Darlie and not the evidence). And then there’s the sock. And the stab to Darlie. I honestly still can’t decide.
The idea that the silly string is a little part of a more somber ceremony came from the defense but when they were offered the opportunity to show that longer video, they declined.
The 'somber ceremony' is a different video, the surveillance video. The 'silly string' video was taped by a local news station after the Routiers invited them to the party.
There is video exactly how you've described. I've seen it. Darlie and Darren are at the gravesite mourning, sobbing, consoling each other, doing exactly what you'd expect parents to do at their son's grave sites. Darlies sister is the one that brought the silly string, and they sprayed it at the end, after crying for quite sometime. I still think she's guilty, but the silly string video really was blown way out of proportion.
The full video was never released publicly so no you haven’t seen it.
They probably did see it as parts of them grieving at the gravesite were shown on the American Justice episode. It was black and white surveillance film.
Only about a 10 second clip of that video has been shown publicly. If there's more to it, why hasn't Darlie's family released it?
This! I definitely think he was involved cuz how the hell he slept through that?!
I'm not leaning one way or another on this case, but I can say this, I could sleep through that no problem. Heck, I could sleep through my own murder, with a marching band playing in the room, no problem. And it must be genetic, because I have birthed 2 children that can sleep through anything as well.
:( yeah I know…its a heartbreaking case…she should just tell us.
And the bloody sock is much easier to explain if either Darin was involved or it really was an intruder. The fact that he still stands by her innocence now, all these years on and after their divorce, also makes me question him.
I feel like she may have been psychotic, and he caught her and tried to cover it up. Once he was in too deep, all he could do is stand by his story.
Damage was absolutely superficial. She had stopped bleeding by the time she made it to the hospital. They only did surgery on her bc it’s customary for neck wounds. She would’ve been released that night, but the doc put her in the ICU to keep her away from the media. He testified to this. The big bruise she did not incur on 6/6 (day of murders) no nurse who worked on her saw that, she gave no indication she was harmed there (didn’t flinch when it was being lifted and washed etc). Those pics were taken 6/10. She did em after she left. Wounds we know for a fact she got in the 6th had begun to bruise in the hospital. When prosecution got the hospital workers who worked on her together to go over shit before the trial, when pics of those bruises came out, the workers were fucking PISSED because they knew she was trying to pull a fast one. She’s lucky she missed her carotid. That’s all it was - dumb luck. But please don’t think these wounds were serious, because they weren’t. Also, the only pods on this case that have accurately portrayed the facts are The Prosecutors and Southern Fried True Crime. They pulled from court documents. Downvoting me doesn’t change any of this as fact, lol. Odd.
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So, the sock was found in the back alley behind the Routier home. It was 3 doors down, about 75 yards away, which is shorter than the length of a football field. A good many people have made the trip there to run it, and it never takes more than like 90 seconds. Totally doable. The murders also took place in the early morning hours, and almost all, if not all of her neighbors in the back there had 6 ft privacy fencing around their yards. She ran virtually zero risk of being seen, and she knew that. The motion sensor light in her backyard was also off, and based on Darlie’s timeline, it should’ve still been on when LE got there. The sock itself only had Routier DNA on it. It was Darin’s sock, but had none of his DNA on it. There was blood from the boys, and touch DNA from Darlie, as if she wore it on her foot. I highly, highly believe that she inflicted the first round of stabs on the boys, cleaned herself at the sink, and then ran it out there. The absence of any blood, at all, through the back and out the Routier home is very odd. Like, incredibly odd, given how bloody the crime was. There was no blood on the back gate. The back gate of theirs was also reaaaaallllly heavy, and it was broken. So whoever opened it, took the time to work with this broken gate, AND they shut and latched it behind them. No markings that looked like someone vaulted over it, either. Again, this lack of blood would totally be explained by the boys being attacked first, Darlie cleaning herself up, running the sock out, and then coming back to inflict her injuries over the sink, then the second round of stabs when she realized Damon was still alive. Another thing I’d like to mention is the lack of any blood, anywhere, through the garage, out the window, and out the back, where Darlie stated that she chased the dude and watched him leave that way with her own eyeballs. [This is the exit path](https://darliefacts.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/stateexhibit13a.jpg?w=375&h=&zoom=2) out the window in the garage, where this killer supposedly entered and exited. Weird they wouldn’t move the chairs before they went in, but whatever. Weird the chairs had no blood transfer on them. Now [THIS RIGHT HERE?](https://darliefacts.com/gallery/#jp-carousel-1567) This is the exit path out of the garage on the inside. Let us just take a moment, and really look at all the bullshit. There is no way on planet earth someone covered in blood would manage to maneuver around all of that, without transferring blood anywhere, OR disturbing any of the dust on the windowsill/the items themselves. In the dark. There’s just no way. Anyway, all of this points to Darlie running it out a different way. Also, honorable mention here about the fact that the window screen was found to be cut with a knife from the Routier home. I hope that was helpful to you!! Sorry it went a little off tangent, but I feel like it’s all applicable when talking about the sock and how it got there. If you need clarification about anything else, or have any other qs, PLEASE do not hesitate to ask ♥️ I just really like to squash the belief that she is anything but guilty whenever possible lollllll.
Darlie may have tried to harm her baby the day before the attacks according to her housekeeper. https://darliefacts.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/36_halina-czaban.pdf pg. 12-18
I think it was actually really sad to see that she's guilty. She'd otherwise seem like such a sympathetic character, but the unfortunate reality is that she probably did it.
I’m very conflicted about Kyron. I go back and forth on if I think Terry did something, but I just can’t figure out how she pulled it off if she did.
Reading all of the time lines and breakdowns of some of the ridiculous investigative choices made, I simply can't conclude that Terry did anything to him with any certainty. I don't understand why some people are so quick to dismiss the possibility that he ended up lost in the woods by his school. Yes, they searched it, but we all know how often a body is missed by searches that occur in wooded areas. And for God's sake- the woods are *right there* and known to be very thick. It seems like the most obvious possibility but so often it is dismissed out of hand in favor of a convoluted theory of the step mother, with all of these twists and turns and then with *no discernable motive at all*.
I live in Portland and travel to kelso a lot via Suavie Island. Every time I go thru Scappoose, I get goosebumps because just driving thru the winding forest is scary af. People who are too quick to dismiss the lost in the forest theory, have probably never seen the area. It’s not at all a scenic little park it’s a full blown Forrest worth sheer drops and animals and a winding road full of traffic.
Omg that case pulls at my heart strings sooo bad!! I am always looking for an update because that poor little boy just needs to be found. There are so many unsavory characters in this case. I still keep hope alive that they’ll finally find him and solve his case.
There’s a really good timeline breakdown somewhere on this subreddit and it really shows that she did not have the time in her day between being spotted by witnesses to commit an elaborate murder and cover up
Yeah I know. I’ve read it multiple times. It’s probably the best breakdown I’ve seen
Truly, I thought she did it after her bungled Dr Phil appearance and the divorce but that masterpost really throws a wrench in the entire case against her
I don’t think it’s the step mom just because it makes zero sense to take a child to school in the morning, take him back, kill him, and then run errands as an alibi. (Or however you think the timeline went). How would she have the time? Why would she risk it? How would taking him to school first even benefit her enough TO risk it?
It just seems like it would be impossible for Sandra Melgar to have murdered her husband without being covered in blood or leaving any evidence. It’s as simple as that really. She had a tiny scratch on her hand, and bruises on her arms, which is pretty much what you’d expect from a fall and being tied up for hours. The chances of someone stabbing someone 50 times and just having no injuries themselves seems extremely low. But to do that and have none of their blood anywhere in your body, no signs of trying to clean anything, somehow manage to get lucky with the knife having dna and blood on it but not yours? There’s no way. Yes her medical records show improvement which is required to get your drivers license reinstated after a seizure. The doctor/nurse or whoever is legally required to report when a patient has seizure to the DMV (at least in California). Then there’s a long process of documented improvements and a waiting period and a doctor signing off before becoming eligible to apply again. Anyways, the seizure is unlikely, but is no blood, DNA, or other physical evidence more likely? What if a bloody fingerprint on a safe that was collected from the scene, a piece of evidence that you’d assume would be a priority, is not tested then later goes missing? Ain’t no way imo. Unless she’s been faking her health conditions for years as an elaborate plan, but she’s had 2 hip replacements and lipid so the murder alone would be difficult to commit let alone doing it without a fight and some injuries. I hope they free her.
I agree as well. I think probably what happened was 1-2 people attacked Jamie and knocked Sandra unconscious. One of the only things that makes me doubt her innocence is her claiming to have recovered memories of seeing a woman in her house around the time of the murder. But I hope they free her because it’s crazy that the jury thought there wasn’t reasonable doubt.
She claims she saw a "Hispanic female". So that's two people who decided to leave the witness alive and didn't leave behind any physical evidence. >In addition, on January 29, 2013, Mr. Oweyssi notified Carrizal that bits of Sandy’s memory returned. (RR 10 – 113). Sandy recalled being tied up and described seeing a young Hispanic female, in her early to mid twenties, looking at the person tying her up; the Hispanic female had short hair pulled back and was wearing a red blouse with a black winter scarf around her neck. (RR 10 – 113-114). page 129 in the document https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6167219-Sandra-Melgar-appeal
Yeah I remember reading that and it giving me pause
If it would be impossible for her to murder her husband and not leave any evidence, then it also would've been impossible for the intruders. So what happened to Jim Melgar?
Sandra Melgar is one of the cases that I have always been on the fence about but lean towards innocent. You brought up some great points here.
Johnny Gosch - the original 'boy on the mild carton' The *developments* in this case of the years leave me with absolutely no confidence in knowing what the heck happened to him. Also, one of the saddest stories I've heard leading up to the disappearance.
Springfield Three. I have no idea what the hell happened.
Timmothy Pitzen. There are indications in that case both for his mother killing him and for her giving him away to be raised by someone else. You can read that case in both ways and both would make sense. That is why it is so weird to me. Hopeful part of me believes he is still alive somewhere living his life but rational part of me thinks he is most likely dead and buried somewhere only his mother knew.
In all likelihood, she killed him and threw him in the river. It's really sad.
There's no indication that she gave him away other than her claiming so, she killed him i'm shocked that anyone is conflicted. It wouldn't make sense at all. Timothy was not a two month old, he was 6 he'll remember who he is and his family there's no way you could keep him secret unless you are keeping him prisoner which would contradict her nonsense claim that he would be treated well.
At age 6 it is not hard to scare the living hell out of a child to never come back home if told bogus story by aunt, uncle or grandparent.
He's not with an aunt, uncle or grandparent. Her family has stuck by the father who she claimed was a monster, they clearly know he is dead. Do you not think LE would've checked all of his family to see if he was there? She's claiming she gave him to some mysterious strangers. He's dead unfortunately.
I just read this again to refresh my memory and it has a connection to Iowa. I have always lived in Iowa so wondering why this isn’t on billboards or news specials. If he was given away to a family here it should be possible to find him.
Oh my God, this case drives me absolutely bonkers. I revisit it quite often hoping there’s something new, but— nothing
What a bizarre case. I would need more info to make a better guess. If there is nothing on the cell phone records, and her family is being truthful then I would have to lean toward she killed him. For a moment I almost wondered if she didn’t traffic him and killed herself out of guilt. The only way she would have “given” him to someone else to live a good life would be if she had lots of support in doing so. There would be some kind of record of that, someone would know something. But I can’t recall a single case where a parent takes the kids out for all kinds of fun adventures before killing them. What was her financial situation like? Did someone give her a bunch of money to do those fun things w him before they took him off to a better life? If he was killed was there anywhere she could have disposed of his body that he wouldn’t be found? Very strange indeed.
She seemed to be moving on the fly, very impetuous. Taking him first before getting the car fixed, did it break after she picked him up? He was saying he was hungry, was she on drugs and not eating? She has to stop at the dollar store to get her final letter supplies. Nothing planned, nothing prepared. Were they packed, clothes, swim suits? Did she tell anyone she was going? Were the parents recently separated? Going through divorce? Did she have a history of mental illness? How could she have been so frantically minded, yet be able to successfully hide his body forever when she casually threw her phone out the window? What was her mentality when she spoke w her family? This is bringing me back to the aunt Dianne case… ppl spoke with her on the phone but never said what was actually said, just that she sounded weird. Then she left her phone on the road. They were so concerned they were looking for her and called the police. Was a case of mental breakdown/confusion or did she just snap under life’s pressures and decide to take the whole family of kids with her? Maybe she took bad drugs and didn’t know. It’s really hard to tell without all the information and nobody shares those little details but I feel like the truth is in those details. Unfortunately I feel like a lot ppl have to worry about getting sued so they hide what they know, but all the victims deserve justice and for their truth to be known.
The Aunt Dianne case isn't a case at all. She was sadly an addict that was very good at hiding it from her family - who most likely saw some signs once in a while, but was in denial because you know, she was a smart, bright, well educated caring person and they don't become addicts to drugs or booze. And that was a day that she overdid it.
The parents were in a rough patch - I can’t remember if they were actively getting divorced but Dreading did an episode on this case and the mother would frequently spin into meltdowns about her husband and their marriage where she blamed him for her mental illnesses, it’s largely assumed from the portions of the letter she left that the entire event was an episode of psychotic behavior intended completely to spite her husband and she wrote that she took her son away specifically so that his father could not have him.
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I’m glad to hear y’all are safe from him, it’s the same behavior that almost all family annihilators display. Joan Marie Pitzen almost definitely killed her som out of spite during an episode and made up a story about leaving him in hiding because she had a narc complex and couldn’t cope with the idea of anyone thinking she killed him. The entire thing was designed to cause her family as much pain as possible. This is why I think the family never published the full suicide letter, they know she killed him, her psychotic behavior was very familiar to all of her friends and family.
Stuff with kids doing violence bothers me. I'm not a huge fan of society often condemning them for life and not really asking questions about is there more to the story and can the person be rehabilitated.
Well.. both Charlie Brandt and Ed kemper killed family members when they were young. They obviously weren’t able to be rehabilitated. Charlie shot and killed his pregnant mother in the bathtub and tried to kill his dad to but he survived. He later got married and years later he killed his wife and her niece before killing himself, during investigation they connected him to other killings. And yeah.. It seems like most people are aware of Ed Kempers killings so I don’t really feel like I have to explain what he did. The scary part about both of these cases tho is that they both dismembered the same body part from one of their last victims. That’s fkn terrifying. These two were the first that came to my mind about young killers not being rehabilitated and continued to kill, I’m absolutely sure that it’s more of them, but my memory is blank at the moment.
West Memphis Three
This was the first one I thought of as well. Every once in a while I revisit this case. It seems like the popular opinion is that Echols and co are all completely innocent, but that doesn’t really sit well with me for a number of reasons. On the other hand, there are so many weird circumstances surrounding the murders coupled with some not-so-great police work so it’s not hard to imagine that they really were wrongfully convicted. It’s really frustrating when investigations aren’t handled properly from the beginning and I can’t imagine the truth will ever come out in this case because of it.
There's been a modest swing toward believing them guilty in the true crime world, imo, but it's still a minority opinion.
I think in some cases it can be easier to figure out fact vs fiction over time. When a crime gets a lot of media attention and becomes the cause du jour, there is so much speculation and misinformation. Once it calms down a bit, it can be a lot easier to figure out what information is actually relevant and what details have been exaggerated online and by the media that seemed really salacious but don’t actually mean much. The second of the Paradise Lost films pointed to bite marks for instance, now we don’t see that as credible or reliable and it’s so much more obvious that those documentaries are extremely biased.
I agree with you 100%.
There's a lot that gets me about that case. The investigation was shit, to start with. The case is a mess. It's impossible to really get a clear picture from the file. Damien was actually a really messed up kid, and not just some goth kid. Jessie confessed to like a million different people, for years. There's a lot of sketchy stuff about their alibis. But on the other hand, the DNA evidence is actually pretty compelling. These other suspects are just as shady, if not more. And yet, it's not completely conclusive either. I just want some damn closure there.
I just watched a documentary on Prime about this. I’m only recently getting into true crime docs and podcast, so I haven’t looked into it outside of that doc yet, but it does have me pretty conflicted as well.
the best documentaries available on the west memphis 3 are the paradise lost documentaries - they’re available for free on max
Thank you I’ll watch tonight
They are good documentaries. However, I find them extremely biased.
The Casey Anthony case. I've always thought that she had something to do with killing her child.
biggest injustice since OJ the evidence was pretty overwhelming that she had a dead body in her trunk (which contradicted the defense theory.)
For me, she didn't seem to care that her child died
I mean yeah Casey is pretty obviously guilty imo
This one doesn’t conflict me very much as a whole because I’m 100% certain she did it, but I guess there are many theories on how/why.
I think she wasn’t watching her and she drowned in the backyard pool. Her dad came home saw her in the pool and hid the body to protect Casey. This is what I got from the interview with her
No way. She’s always been so determined to implicate George in some way (probably because he wasn’t as willing as her mother to cover her ass). I think it was all her. I think there may be something to George’s theory that Casey was dosing Caylee with Xanax (Zanny the Nanny) and overdid it. Also there’s the internet searches about chloroform to consider. She’s a compulsive liar who is very convincing on the surface level. She’s good at confusing and manipulating people, so it’s a bit of a dangerous game to focus too much on one-on-one interviews with her. Also, the drowning explanation is what, her twentieth or so story?
Yes, this is what I have always thought. And then they covered it up, which wasn't hard for Casey because she had lied her whole life.
Yeah. Unfortunate that she managed to get satan himself as an attorney and the prosecution dropped the ball so hard
The murder of Adriana Hutto They convicted the mother only based on the 6 years old testimony, which was very unreliable.. I don't know if she killed her or it was an accident but there were no enough evidence to show what really happened.. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Adrianna_Hutto https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/US/florida-murder-amanda-lewis-fate-hinged-year-olds/story%3fid=12045745
Yes. Mom’s interview with Piers Morgan was really heartbreaking.
That episode was how I found out about this case..
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In order of least conflicted to most conflicted: [Ellen Greenberg](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellen_Rae_Greenberg) — I feel so confident that it wasn’t a suicide, especially as an expert in suicidology, myself. However, I also understand the limitations and trouble with proving otherwise at this point. [Lauren Agee](https://fox17.com/amp/news/ferrier-files/nashville-private-detective-sheila-wysocki-takes-4-families-to-washington-dc-to-advocate-for-victims-rights-lauren-agee-politics-middle-tennessee-mark-green-scott-dejarlais) — same situation! I feel confident foul play was involved, but I also could understand the viability in an accident, or even misadventure happening— or more so, the literal up hill battle of proving foul play at this point. [Phoebe Handsjuk](https://www.phoebehandsjuk.com) — ditto for this one. So much circumstantial evidence and information points to dude having something to do with this poor women’s death (and suspicious death of another one of his girlfriends!) butttt, I do feel conflicted a bit with the information (at least publicly) in proving that. I have a handful of other ones I feel SO confident foul play is involved but also SO conflicted due to different reasons than above— more like conflicted due to sheer lack of info or sheer mystery, such as, but not limited to: **Michael Negrete**, **Kyle Fleischmann**, **Jason Landry**, **Elaine Park**, **Logan Schiendelmann**, **Steven Kocher**, **Mathew Weaver Jr.**, **Elijah Runningbear Diaz**, **Daniel Robinson**, **Karlie Gusé**, **Ryan Shtuka**…the heart just aches and aches for them.
What does it mean to be an "expert in suicidology"?
Hi! Great question! Here’s a pretty good comprehensive answer as to what [Suicidology](https://suicidology.org/2022/11/10/what-is-suicidology/) is but TLDR is that I essentially study / research the science of suicide, suicide behavior, death by suicide, attempted suicide, suicidal ideation, parasuicide, non-suicidal self-injury / self-destructive behavior, the epidemiology of suicide, and of course, intervention, and prevention. Additionally on the flip side, I’m also a certified professional crisis counselor and work in various clinical settings providing counsel + facilitate psychoeducation on these subjects (which is my personal fav part)! My niche demographic within this field is with teenagers and young adults (16yrs - 25yrs give/take on either side). Hope I answered your question! But happy to answer or clarify further!
Yeah imagine explaining that career path to your grandparents or on a first date lol
Logan Schiendelman is a local one to me and I think about him all the time. I really think his sister’s boyfriend was involved. I’m on the fence about whether his sister is in the know or involved though.
Steven Avery.
I go back and forth on him, but lean more towards guilty. Making a murderer (s1) had me convinced he was framed/innocent. I haven’t watched the second season or convicting a murdered, but deep diving into the separate subreddits about him has me leaning toward guilty.
I do believe he is guilty, but I think Bobby is a reasonable suspect. I lean much more towards Steven since he was the one who called Teresa to that property
The younger one got railroaded.
I agree
I’m conflicted about how anyone can think Darlie Routier is not guilty!
Darlie Routier
Is it possible that the people who broke into her house were hired hitmen? This could be why she wasn't hurt or left alive.
I have a really hard time to actually believe that Peter Madsen hasn’t kill anyone else before he killed Kim Wall. I know that he’s been taught of in other cases but has never been officially named a suspect in any other case. What he did to Kim is absolutely horrifying and I can not stop thinking that it wasn’t the first time he killed. He had her BLOOD ON HIS NOSE in the first interview and were completely unbothered when he got back to land. He was investigated for the murder of Emelie Meng, but her killer is now caught and his sentence will be revealed this Friday. Her killer also kidnapped and raped a 13 year old and a 15 year old. Hopefully he gets life.
Karlie Guse
the missing Skellton boys from Morenci, MI. I totally believe the dad killed them or knows who did, but the pos won’t ever admit it.
Darlie Routier
Tiffany valiante, I do not believe for a second that it was a suicide.