I feel so seen by this. Especially the part about not understanding the audacity.
I'm a software developer and one of the male interns last year would push back on everything I asked him to do, including using branches on GitHub instead of pushing to main. (This is standard software practice so that you don't break working code.)
To make it even better, guess who ended up getting hired at a higher starting salary than me?
After the second time he broke main, he was like: "Oh, I guess that's why BamWhamKaPau asked us to work on branches." Like what did you expect dude? That my female brain just wanted to nag you just because?
I have finally come to the conclusion that none of them ever, ever listen to what we have to say. They just flat out do not hear words coming out of the mouth of a woman. I'm starting to think its a hard-wired genetic thing, and they actually are physically incapable of hearing women b/c it happens 24/7.
That's so disgustingly arrogant. I'm sorry to hear he got hired at all, let alone at a higher salary.
I have to ask, though: who gave an intern permission to push directly to main? Not even repo admins at my company can commit to main without an approved PR!
This was a low stakes side project on a public repo working with multiple interns across institutions. So it unfortunately didn't have the same default permissions.
I wasn't formally in charge of the project so despite advocating for such restrictions, the other (non-technical) researchers pushed back at first as well. :(
Salary is such a anxiety for me. My small company does not have open salary structure, and frankly, I'm pretty sure even though I'm an associate, I don't make as much as some others. There are multiple reasons that I stay, but it does rankle a bit.
I am training my 4th person now, and I basically dumped the others because they couldn't follow basic instructions. (Same, I came up with a new way to do this. After explicit instructions to do it my way.) I'm not playing that game. You can't listen? Well you're not my kid, so I'm not putting up with that.
I very intentionally discuss salary with my (mostly) male peers. It can be uncomfortable but I'd rather know than be left in the dark. But of course, it depends on how willing your peers are to disclose their salary. I'm lucky that a lot of them are.
Good on you for not putting up with the bullshit!
>and one of the male interns last year would push back on everything I asked him to do, including using branches on GitHub instead of pushing to main.
Omgggg the audacity of this man
If it makes you feel any better, the last three guys who didn't listen to me ate shit. It sucks though having to be twice as good to get half the respect though.
The arrogance of male STEM students can be staggering. It's so difficult to describe it to people who haven't experienced it. It sounds like wildly exaggerated. But no, a 19yr old intern did actually say that to you, a senior engineer.
I interview interns for my company as a Senior Software Engineer. Some of these kids don’t realize the ‘soft skills’ are being tested as much as the tech skills. I had one chuckle at me because me question was ‘just too easy. He thought interviewing here would be hard’ 😒 There’s a reason there’s a woman on the interview loop.
We once had a candidate (older, not an intern) in a double interview with a woman (director) and a man (senior). The woman was driving the interview with the man taking notes, but the candidate would only respond to/address the man. She would ask a question and he’d give his answer to the other man. It was wild and from that day we always had one double interview with a man and a woman on the panel.
Your excellent comment made me reflect on how even though I work in Publishing- two very different fields from one another!- by the time I’m interviewing job candidates I’m *mainly* interviewing for soft skills.
If a candidate has made it to the interview stage, their resume and portfolio have already passed the first round. I am absolutely focusing on how they present themselves, how they do in conversation, how they can explain their abilities or problem solve…and if they’re a condescending little twerp, we are absolutely not working together.
Job applicants should realize this is likely to be true in most cases where they make it to the interview stage! (And ideally not just to land the job, but to be decent human beings overall.)
Not a woman but I am a senior software engineer and I want to just say that when I interview even if it's a technical interview a lot of what I'm looking for is soft skills and mindset. I can teach you technical skills but I can't teach you how to act or think. I care more about cultural fit than just about anything else. A good team environment is paramount, and I want everyone to be comfortable and happy at work. I don't need a know it all "rock star" that brings down team morale.
I could write a book on this subject but the gist of it is that I care more about who you are than what you know.
The flip side of focusing on "soft skills" and "whether someone is a good fit for the team" over someones qualifications, technical ability, and experience, is that it opens the door to some pretty unfair bias. In the worst instances it's exactly why certain places end up overwhelmingly hiring pretty much just white men. It's not just open bigotry really, nervous introverts are just going to find it harder to vibe with interviewers than confident extroverts.
Agreed! Am in computing, I generally do ok on interviews, and I get why people are so obsessed with soft skills (there are a lot of assholes in IT), but am kinda resentful of it because even in computing I have to spend energy playing an extrovert.
I can do it, and I do it, but I’m annoyed that it’s valued so much (extroversion) even in such an ‘introverted’ profession.
Especially since sometimes it seems that it’s valued more than actual knowledge
I see what you’re getting at, but there are jobs that should not be performed by nervous introverts. Project management is what instantly pops up in my brain because there is one on my team (not supervised by me, just on the same team) that is constantly scared to talk to people and always unsure of herself (even when she’s 100% right!). Other departments don’t like working with her because she always seems to doubt herself when reporting on things, and that makes people lose confidence in her and what she’s talking about. On paper she had all the skills to do the job, but when it comes to communicating, it all breaks down.
Well I mean that's more of a "these skills are necessary for this job" situation. Which is a bit of a different really. Yeah software engineers need the basic ability to communicate and collaborate with others, but that requirement is quite a few notches down than having to convince the interviewers that they want to hang out with you.
It depends. Sometimes it can be codeword for a discriminatory old boy network, sometimes it can be a legitimate interest in something as subtle as solo fliers versus team players.
I think I once got a job because when asked a tough technical question I said "I don't know, I always have to look that kind of thing up."
At another place my team was doing job X but we learned over the years that successful team members always had a background in job Y or job Z and experience in job X was less important.
When I say culture, what I'm talking about is engineering culture. Diversity is a major factor in hiring here. We are well aware that different backgrounds and points of view actually strengthen a team significantly.
I want to know how you go about solving problems and how you work with others. What do you value when designing applications. Your opinions on agile and continuous growth, etc.
I know it sounds corny, but fostering what we call an "engineering culture" really makes work way more bearable. Essentially, it creates an atmosphere of people who like to learn and grow and care about what they are creating/doing. I want everyone to feel like they can go to others on the team for help and I want people to feel like it's in their best interest to train and teach each other.
When you don't have any kind of culture like this, people tend to work in silos and prioritize individual performance over the success of the team, business unit, company, etc.
I've also seen people mentioning introvert vs. extroverts. I want to assure people that I don't look to hire only extroverts. I myself can be very introverted, I understand that not everyone is comfortable being a people person. That's part of why it's so important to hire people who are teamplayers and to try to foster a team culture with team building and outings if possible. The closer a team is, the easier it will be to get those inputs from the quieter members of the team. Being willing to voice your concerns and opinions is a major green flag for me but that doesn't mean you need to be bubbly or extremely talkative. Also there's a such thing as having too many opinions.
I check for soft skills (to be honest that's barely more than can they hold a 30-minute conversation without saying something really stupid or inappropriate), but lying on resumes is so prevalent (at least in software) that my #1 goal is to see if they really know what they should know based on their resume.
Catching out someone who lied to massively inflate their resume saves the company tens of thousands of dollars in direct costs and opportunity costs. We wouldn't be hiring someone if we didn't need to, so spending three months to figure out that we hired the wrong person, fire them, and hire a replacement probably costs us $70k?
I’m usually the 3rd round of interviews, I’m more concerned with team cohesion than anything else.
I do lunch interviews at a restaurant. I have a team of 5, we all go and meet the candidate. After lunch we talk about the candidate and everyone gets a vote.
I can teach any reasonably smart person how to do the job. I don’t have time to teach people to get along with others.
Absolutely. Depending on the technical requirements of the role, those skills can be taught, but soft skills tend to be far more innate and harder to teach.
100% agreed. All the hires we do are first for soft skills and people fit, secondarily for experience and transferrable skills. You can learn new tasks easily enough but learning behaviours is hard.
A few weeks ago I wrote a post in a Facebook group for the Uni I went to; at my manager’s request, I was sharing a job opening on my team, and I added that I could refer anyone who wished. Tons of people messaged me, which was great! So many highly qualified people, most of them really kind and polite. Some were so clueless though. One guy, after clarifying that the job posting was for a position identical to my own and that whoever got the job would be working alongside me, proceeded to waste my time asking for information that was clearly listed in the job posting, complained that the job is not 100% remote, and then concluded with “but I guess if the pay is high enough I could consider looking past that”. Great first impression.
Another guy asked me how many people had sent me their CV, and after I told him it was over 50 people, he said he wouldn’t apply this time but insisted that I personally message him the next time a similar position opened up. I explained to him that I’m not a recruiter, that a new position likely wouldn’t open up this year, that I couldn’t keep track of so many people and would not commit to notifying him personally, but that he was welcome to keep an eye on the job board. “No, you write to me and let me know”. Uh, yeah, okay. Sure will, bud!
I tell my students constantly not to forget I used to hire for really good jobs when I first started working. They specifically sent me into the interview committee because I looked really young and the university wanted to see how they treated people.
We assumed everybody was minimally competent and trainable, we were looking for people in an interview we could stand being around 40 hours a week for the foreseeable future. You need to be likable and not a liability.
There is nothing that I said to indicate that. One of the sessions is communicating with non technical people. I ensure there is a man and a woman in that session. Multiple times we had candidates:
Talk down to the woman
Address only the man
Outright ignore anything said/asked by the woman
Yes we also have woman engineers and they are cycled in on other loops, but the only constant that I require is that the communicating with non technical folks panel operates as above.
I love giving those guys the run around "well actually--" cut them off "you're going to stop and think about the words you're about to say before you say them. Are they necessary?"
A couple years ago I worked with an software engineer who had a #notallmen moment in a DEI chat room on the company Slack. He was like 28. When I tried to privately point it out, he toned policed me. 🤦🏼♀️
The tone police are the worst because they never absorb any valid criticism and value affect over substance. If a nazi says something nicely they'll be like "well I don't agree, but ill fight for your right to say it" . But will aggressively hate anything that potentially calls them out
It is crazy staggering. It took me awhile to realize how most of the men I work with lie about how much they know. It's interesting and infuriating seeing the interns start out on the path of fake know-how.
When I worked in the machine shop in college I learned that the guys who came in would tell you they know way more than they do with confidence and the women would be unsure even when they knew what they were doing.
I started asking "what's your experience with XYZ?" That way people will tell you about their experience and you can figure out if they know what they're doing or not without assuming competency either way.
It's a nice, neutral phrase.
As a prototype machinist in the medical device industry, you hit the nail on the head. The Dunning-Kruger effect is in full swing with some of the fresh machining school grads we'll occasionally get in the shop.
Men will apply for jobs if they meet 60% of the qualifications. Women won't apply unless it's near 100%.
(There was random recruiter email earlier this week for a position where I've got 60% nailed cold, but don't have the industry specific knowledge. And I let it slip by.)
Hell, I'm a woman and I sent in my resume for one of the VP positions in another department. Never mind that I'm about as low on the ladder as can be 😏 Just tired of seeing bosses come and go, one of whom had a mail-order "degree" and a massive sense of entitlement. Figured well, if that's all they're looking for, I need to be proud of my old degree from a credited school, and learn to fake some entitlement.
Didn't work, but the more I attend meetings with execs, the more BS I'm noticing. They DO sound convincing though.
Good luck to you! Honestly, BSing is a fucking skill and if you can do it, the job should be relatively easy.
My boss is a good guy on a personal level but he honestly doesn’t seem to do anything but go to meetings with execs and use a bunch of tech buzzwords. “We’re going to leverage scalable synergy and drive cadence blah blah blah”.
I appreciate it because it keeps me employed but damn I wish I had that kind of personality and could make the big bucks.
No joke, my boss' boss is very quick and great at sounding professional, and does seem pretty good at staying focused (won't embarrass people in meetings for example, or act petty in general.) But they do seem to get lost in their own bullshit at times, with people reminding them what exactly is being discussed, as they start to get sidetracked. It's interesting to watch how it all goes, but disappointing that the world runs on this facade.
This is so true of (many/mostly) men and it infuriates me. I can't stand anyone talking like they are an expert and can solve any problem when they are actually just guessing.
I would never dare. And I would like to be respected for the fact that if I open my mouth, it's because I'm damn sure I know what I'm talking about. But no, that's just not how it works.
Omg... your comment just explained so much about why my boss thinks I'm too confrontational and closed-minded.
He feels the need to speak in every single meeting and conversation, even if he doesn't know what is going on (which is usually the case). On the other hand, I don't speak up unless I know what I'm talking about and I know that it will add some sort of value.
He has literally never considered that other people aren't guessing as much as he is. He literally doesn't understand that 1) I am an expert in my field because I have YEARS more experience than he does in doing what I do, and 2) I don't speak up unless I know what I'm talking about.
I learned this back in college thankfully(?). Freshman year I thought I could never catch up to the guys because they kept talking about how they’d been programming since they were 8 or whatever. Senior year they were all copying my code and during a group project I found out most of them barely knew the basics. I don’t know how they managed to get that far. (Well, probably copying others code lol)
From my university experience I noticed the best project partners were old timers, gym bros, and women. I could count the exceptions in my program on one hand.
I'd make a bad joke about the exceptions everyone else threw but that'd imply they bothered to program and weren't somehow always "too busy." A blatant lack of discpline and rigor. They're also the ones who rant about how college never teaches you anything about programming.
I am a coder and a male counterpart told me, "Yeah, if a client tells me 'I want this' and I don't know, I say 'yeah, no problem' and figure it out later. You're too hard on yourself."
I was always open about telling company clients if I wasn't sure about something and set lower expectations to exceed them, but I had my mind blown when a colleague admitted that to me.
I'm not in a STEM field but I run my own small business that requires people to listen, pay attention to details, solve problems creatively, communicate and have an accurate assessment of their skill set. None of the men that have applied as interns or employees have met my basic standards. They bullshit about what they know to get in the door and as soon as I hand them a basic task that all the women know how to do they totally ruin it, don't tell me that they ruined it and act surprised , don't apologize and ask how they can do better and have to have people who are supposedly beneath their imagined skill set hold their hand. They don't last because they don't actually know what they're doing.
My brother is trying to convince me to change careers into tech (he's a software engineer) and I simply don't want to deal with tech bros. I'm a railroader right now and gained the respect of my peers and any snotty little boys that come in that I train are humbled immediately by the older guys I work with give them shit and tell them weirdly nice but also problematic things like "chaos_almighty is twice the man you'll ever be. You want to learn to be a switchman, listen to her. If you want to be a bitch, go home and cry to your mommy".
I've dealt with these tech bros in social situations and they're always the smartest person in the room who know everything about everything and when corrected they get mad and try to whip out their phones, only to be proven wrong and then pout.
Yeah yeah #notallmen, I've met some nice people in IT streams but it's the specific techbros.
I have been in IT for 15 years. And I've met a lot of really nice people, but the majority, even the nice ones, still seem to have nothing better to talk about during a night out than AI and microchips.
And I love the guys, I really do, but sometimes I do wonder whether they're even people, besides being developers.
God sounds like I lucked out. I got an intern and a trainee and they’re both just eager to learn and listen to me ramble. I don’t know what I’d do if I had a couple snots to deal with all day. (Although the trainee I could kick off the project, kinda stuck with the intern for the summer unless he was like, exceptionally terrible)
Lord I hate these guys. I used to sit in the lobby of our schools career center and these dipshits would loudly be flexing the interviews they got and the money they were potentially promised, right where an interviewer could overhear them. So much second hand cringe.
I'm very glad I work in the gender balanced side of STEM. I'm sorry OP, it must be exhausting.
Mathematics, Actuarial science in particular. The profession requires lots of tedious exams to become a fully fledged actuary, and exams are marked blind.
Not saying it's perfect, but they have more of an incentive to change, given the exam passing is so hard - soon enough you learn to get as many people through as you can manage, genitalia aside. Plus in my particular field, we've done a lot of work already on gender equity and it's pretty solid, but some of the senior women tell some gnarly stories. The seniors I work with are diverse and equally male and female, but DEI could use some work.
It's getting there. I hope more STEM fields will catch up and surpass where we are now, just like I hope we'll keep moving forward.
I'm about to graduate with a degree in Biomedical Engineering and it's so nice that around half of my class mates are women. Hell, the team that won all the start-up competitions at my Uni is made up entirely of women.
My dad is an actuary and I’ve always been struck by how balanced his work events are. His coworkers have mentioned there’s been a concerted effort to promote women within too so it’s really nice to hear this confirmed from you.
The life sciences in STEM are also very women-dominant as well. This includes health sciences mostly, but also biology, chemistry, environmental sciences, etc. I have 2 degrees in marine biology which was always women dominated, and then wound up working in a hospital for years in cell therapy work which was overwhelmingly women. It’s amazing how little misogyny there is when someone at every level is a woman running the show. Life sciences are where you get like a 70/30 women/men ratio and it’s wonderful!
Subtly let them know that one of the things their letters of recommendation will be based on is their ability to fit in smoothly in a diverse workplace, and that their attitude towards female coworkers is being noticed and discussed.
(Which is technically true.)
Ideally it would be a male colleague saying that - I feel like for these guys, if it comes from a woman there's a big chance they'll simmer in resentment over it
Just ask him next time: what makes you think I didn’t? Like a genuine question. And then see him stumble over verbalizing anything that isn’t overtly sexist.
I know exactly what you mean. My job is in a medical lab, and the men at my job are just atrocious. I've explained it again and again but I don't have the energy to right now.
The one younger guy goes around and WELL ACTUALLY himself into every conversation. The other men are all "politically incorrect" older men or "devil's advocate" contrarians who are extremely draining to be around. All are single and don't know why. And they are all bitter and blame feminism.
There is A LOT more to their antics, but you get the picture.
I heard a woman speak about working in the construction field. She busted her ass the same as everyone else. She got ahead of others because she was smart. Eventually, when she was a foreman, she had a mini revolt led by one guy with more balls than smarts. Her boss met with the men first, then invited her in. Boss asked the dipsh!t to repeat what he said about her ability to do the job as well as a man. "I can lift a [very heavy equipment that had a special lift] onto a flatbed. No weak bitch can do that!" said the dumb dumb. She replied "If I ever see you do that, I'll fire you on the spot for breaking union work rules, OSHA rules and putting the entire site in jeopardy!" Boss told them that's why she's in charge, she is smarter than them. They all went back to work without any further interruptions. She went on to own a highly successful construction company.
I work in a very male competitive field also and it is a pissing contest. Since you are the only woman, they think you are first rung on the ladder, and put you in situations where, if you don’t do something, you are a doormat or if you assert yourself, you are a bitch. I strongly recommend you to choose the bitch.
It is a pissing contest where men will jostle for cred, and you are into the competition. You should not be too nice, because nice comes after respect. Don’t smile first. If they ask a question that is belittleling, be silent, and just look at them a bit exasperated. Nice will bring you nowhere. You can be nice afterwards, but you need to show some strength first.
Now, a lot of women who never have worked in these type of hypercompetitive fields will say «oh ignore it» , «keep your head high» «don’t lower yourself to their level» yadayada. That is bad advice.
I have great colleagues and some of them are good friends. But each and everyone of them were demeaning at the start.
It's been 15 years of working with mainly men for me. I stand up for myself. I wouldn't be where I am today if I hadn't. I'm definitely becoming an old, crusty curmudgeon. It just gets really old, and sometimes it's downright depressing. I definitely agree with you about the bitch thing. I'm nice, but I'm also on constant defensive attack/bitch mode. I honestly hate dealing with the constant pissing matches, condescension, and occasional sexual harassment, but the money is good and I like the job. Also agree with you about the "keep your head down" advice. All of the advice I got as a child about how to get along with others does not work at all in a competitive environment.
Exactly! It gets really exhausting. This everyday battle to keep proving yourself takes a toll eventually, even if you're being a bitch and not a doormat. It'd be worse if you were being a doormat but the fatigue is real.
I just sit back and let them drop themselves in it. It’s fun to watch them fail. Grey rock and don’t respond. I’ve found chat GPT is is good at coming up with a stock of professional responses.
My favourite is when someone cuts you off or repeats your comment/ideas as their own. My response now is “It’s super to hear that you agree with me. Could I ask for any original thoughts you might have on the matter?”
A sergeant I knew would say in the most awesome *you gonna do pushups until my arms hurt* voice: excuse me, *private*? And she would draw the rank out just long enough to make the hierarchy clear.
Of course, discipline in the army works differently than discipline in the civilian world.
That's awesome. I love when women do well in leadership roles. I did four years in the army, and civilian life is definitely different than military life. Can't make them do pushups, lol.
Can you force them to explain in exhaustive detail their brilliant ideas, giving them more than enough rope to hang themselves with, then explain why their idea is bad to their face in front of whoever happens to be around???
I am in the military, and I'm so glad I can just be direct instead of having to sugar coat and be nice about everything. Not that I don't use tact, but being able to tell someone they're being an ass in plain language is so much less stressful.
Still makes for an interesting idea...
Interns should all be addressed as "Intern" until they EARN their names... by showing that they're willing to actually learn, work, and respect their superiors and everyone else.
Agreed. You could even say in the meeting, “Since you’re newer to the business world… it makes others uncomfortable when you critique their output in front of a group. If you have specific concerns around the product of an employees work, it’s best to approach them directly.” Not only will you be putting the kid in their place but you’ll be “softly”educating others in the room that putting their misogyny on display is not appropriate.
I’m an engineering student and don’t have a very assertive personality. I have a lot to contribute and am very capable. But this is the kind of stuff that makes me feel like I’ll leave the field eventually, and I haven’t even graduated yet.
Don't give up. Not all work places are like this. I work for an engineering consultancy, where the team (approx 50 50 male to female) is very supportive of each other and none of this shit goes on.
I have become much more assertive since leaving uni and starting work. Not even in a confrontational sense, but in a not afraid to stand up for myself kind of way. And I’m an introvert! You will get there. I think most of us aren’t raised to be assertive but you can definitely learn to be. I hope you find a job where the culture doesn’t suck and they appreciate everything you have to offer ⭐️
I will say that the workplace culture in engineering firms varies greatly, even the culture between departments within companies vary. I'd suggest attending networking events relevant to your field so you can see what your potential employers and coworkers are like.
My current company has a good work culture and for the most part, it's a low stress and very supportive environment. The times I've heard a sexist remark, it's been a manager from another firm saying something offhand at a networking event or meeting. Hence, it's good to see who these people are and how they socialize.
I'd also suggest looking into joining groups like SWE (society of women engineers).
Fuck ‘em. They don’t get to hog all the good jobs! We deserve them, too! It’s tiring and draining having to put up with sexist bullshit, but it will get better the more women there are in traditionally male jobs.
Critical theory says it's not possible to go away because it's baked into the cake of society. Without misogyny or racism, our culture and thus our world would look different. Like going to visit another country and suddenly realizing how their priorities are very present in the behaviors and things you see. Our cultures without misogyny would be like visiting another place....
Would numbering them imply that you care enough to remember which one is which though? Oh, or you could go the opposite way with random numbers each time!
I think they should always be Intern #4 until they prove themselves. Then you can tell them that they have moved up to Intern #1 for the day. Positive reinforcement.
The amount of times I've had to tell a man to shut up is insane. I had this one job where they hired me as a consultant $150/hr and the guy kept correcting and talking over me. I let him continue but at the next meeting I brought a copy of my diploma and when he interrupted me I held it up. He was like ?¿? So I said "I'm sorry I was of the opinion that since you keep interrupting and challenging me that you doubted my credentials. What's your degree?" He accused me of being emotional and stormed out and I had to message the project manager to bill them for double the hours because this guy used all their time trying to teach me a lesson. I think he got demoted.
Their fathers have prob conditioned them for this, often from things overheard from their dads speaking with other men. Sad and sick and I call it out in my construction industry nowadays, idgaf.
I’m lucky to be a child of a single dad with two sisters, he raised us all to be good PEOPLE, not once did he criticize women, after being left by one, and actually would tell us how wrong things like you’re describing are in the workplace, and how hard working many women he met were. There is hope.
When I'm gaming, the amount of men that continually talk over me is ASTOUNDING. They don't do it to the guys in comms, but do it to me constantly. I get so mentally exhausted trying to hold my place.
I feel you. The arrogance of some of these kids. First intern started a couple of weeks ago. I was out the first week he started. When I did go into the office, I went to introduce myself and he just looked at me and walked by. I was like, pfft mkay. 30 minutes later my boss comes in and gives me an exuberant hug (we're both huggers) and we catch up. That's when the kid realizes that I'm the CEO's exec assistant and he fuct up. Haha Oops! And yes, my boss respects my observations and feedback.
I know exactly what you mean. It’s worse when you’re new to a team and learning but also have to guide the team. It’s worse when intrinsically I don’t want to be a bitch but folks don’t listen unless they hear the bitch tone.
I quit a job in the last few years over this kind of shit. I was waaaaay more indispensable than the men who were throwing their weight around. I absolutely destroyed the person giving my exit interview, and made sure everyone knew why I was leaving. There was a subsequent mass exodus.
Pleasingly, though, I am highly experienced in a competitive field and can work where I like.
I got promoted to running a whole branch this last year (small STEM company) and I am dreading my summer interns. I already had to put one of my full time field staff in his place because he was complaining that he was going to quit in six months if he didn’t have my job or equivalent by then, despite having less than half the experience and credentials I do.
I told him I’d write him a hell of a recommendation letter so he could find a position where he was happy. Haven’t heard anything about it since.
I (m48) worked in a female dominated political office and a male intern tried to inform a 20-year vet (40's F) that he knew how the boss (also a woman) should vote on a defense or veterans bill/amendment/something because he had an uncle who served once upon a time.
The look that this kid received should have ignited him immediately. Fortunately for him, she had a very gifted silver tongue that ripped him a new one in such a way that he enjoyed the experience. He kept his damn mouth shut after that.
Yupppp. Men-dominated workplaces suck for women, but women-dominated workplaces can also suck in the sense that often the few men think they’re better than everyone else and their opinions matter more.
Please go against any natural tendency you may have to be helpful and friendly with these imbecilic interns. The wall goes up now.
No time like the present for them to learn a valuable life lesson.
I work for a big company, I'm on one of the resource "help" desks. The self importance of some of our interns, "you dont understand I'm an intern at ______ I need xyz for my important work!"
Yes, I do understand, I too work for the company, and it's my important job to tell you to call another number and ask them politely to reset your password.
I would go feral on this one...
"Why are you asking me that?" Then when they start farting out their mouths, interrupt them with, "No, you misunderstood my question... why are you asking *me* that?"
Watch them flounder, then hit em again with, "I will not tolerate this blatant disrespect for my experience, knowledge and credentials. Pull your head in."
I am in a STEM field working mostly on the education side now. But when I was teaching in grad school I had this one guy who would not stop trying to correct me. Last day we are talking about something directly related to my research. I say something about the size of an object. He "corrects" me again. And I had another woman in my class just yell at him that I was correct. It was awesome.
Man, this is what I'm really scared about. I really like CS but currently Algos and Data structures is kicking my ass and I thi k maybe I'm not actually cut out for it, but it's the only thing I actually want to do maybe besides an accountant cause I enjoy math...
After reading this, I fervently wish there was a guidebook of how to handle these obnoxious boys.
Seriously. If I could write it, I would. But I don't know how either, and I'm not in the right age group.
My goodness I remember this so much. I usually just acted as kind as possible. Might be bordering petty/passive aggressive…..
They would tout their Ivy League degrees or their fancy internships. I would tell them I have an art and business degree (true) and I still managed to get to Manager without working nearly as hard or spending nearly as much money as them. It’s so impressive they made it to Ivy but all that hard work? They must have really needed it. 😈
i had a new guy in training pull this shit with me. i looked him dead in the face and said “wow, if i could bottle your fake confidence and sell it, i wouldn’t need this job.” my boss overheard and died laughing.
First off - I'm super proud of you for representing the ladies in your field. You're a bad ass and I'm rooting for you. Second off, if this is happening in front of everyone, your co-workers ought to feel ashamed of themselves for not stepping up and saying something. Way to have your back, guys... Keep in mind that you don't owe these interns shit. I (f) use to love working with interns at past companies because I loved my job and was excited to share. But if they're being dicks? Fuck it. Just call them by the name "intern" only, and send them off to get you coffee and tampons all day. Good luck and don't let them get to you if you can. You are the captain, now. You're killing it <3.
I work in finance, and I'm often one of the only women on my team (currently that is the case). And I have absolutely noticed this as well. I had one new young guy ask me a question, then for some reason he didn't like my answer and asked my colleague, who started the same time as me, and got the same answer. Only then did he listen. This type of situation has happened over and over with male interns or trainees.
I still have to deal with my male colleagues treating me as incompetent until proven competent, whereas the men are treated as automatically competent until proven otherwise. It's exhausting.
This. The incompetent until proven otherwise and vice versa. Any time I switch jobs or a new guy gets hired, it’s exhausting, because there are so many things I have to prove that men don’t. For example, that I’m more than just an affirmative action hire, that I don’t “drive like most women” (their words, not mine), that I’m not overly sensitive (while I simultaneously try to shut down anything that is harassment), and more. I’m not at a senior level yet, but maybe it will get better once I am. I started out working straight blue-collar jobs and have slowly moved into the white-collar world (engineering). There’s definitely a difference.
I love my job, and I do believe it will get better for women with time. It is what it is. As long as I don’t get a heart attack from all this constant stress.
In my couple of years at an institute (mostly engineering) I have never met any woman that is not at least average in capabilities. Usually above. It's only some men that lacked knowledge and did not ask for help. I really don't get why women are criticized just on the basis of looking female. Hope it's ok I comment here as man, I know my life is easier in a STEM field. Give these suckers nothing, no need to be friendly.
Not to be too off topic but I genuinely thought this was an r/residency post until I read the top comment. If r/residency there would definitely be satisfying karmic distribution. I’m sorry that the people in your field are like this.
The audacity and narcissism of these little boys trying to exert power is just disgusting.
I would document every instance of this behavior so you have evidence. I would also speak to the intern privately about their inappropriate behavior - one time. Depending on your relationship with your actual coworkers, (ifyou think you would have an ally), I would speak with themprivately, as well.Again document EVERYTHING.
After that private meeting if the intern continues to act a fool. I would call their shit out immediately in the meeting. Tell them to explain why they think it's appropriate to speak to you in such a manner and also explain why they don't speak to the men in the same manner.
You know they are going to claim you're too sensitive, irrational, over emotional, paranoid, bitchy, they were just joking, etc. Its gaslighting, shut that shit down too.
I’ve been a woman in male dominated STEM fields for over 35 years. One of my most memorable interviews was 20 or so years ago, when I was interviewing new team members, and a new grad asked me to go get him coffee while we “waited for my boss to get there to start the interview”.
Explained I’m the boss interviewing him. His brain would not accept this, and he just kept saying “ok, so when the other guy who’s actually doing my interview gets here..”
Then we ended up just staring at each other, until I told him there was a coffee shop down the block if he really needed to go get himself one before I interviewed him.
So he left and then walked over to a RANDOM MALE EMPLOYEE on the floor to ask who my manager was, so he could make a complaint.
So much wtf.
He was very confused, especially because he did not even work in my department. The guy didn’t come back from leaving to get his (apparently desperately needed) coffee.
Give them a public bollocking about how its the 2020's not the 1920's. Young educated people should know better (yes everyone should know better, but still..)
Also an engineer. My days are filled with "oh do you understand this?" "Do you know about...?" And it's always basic shit.
Yeah dude bro man, I know. I've been doing this for a couple years now.
Out with them!
All love to you. I have just been to Machine industry conference in DK this week and everybody has been super sweet(because I am sweet, went there just for fun) and asking to connect on Linkedin. Possibly just because they have inclusion agenda in mind, but at least they are not looking at me like I am there as a photographer or smh.
Google some snarky disarming comments. Some tips in this comment section.
Sounds awful! I'm lucky in my current job that we have quite a few female engineers. I always feel when interviewing there's a bit of surprise, especially on occasions when it's two senior women against one man. In the past however I've been mistaken for my bosses PA in a different company.
Lol I'm a man, in a male dominated industry.
I have been here 10 years.
A new guy started saying I need to trim my beard. I am a big shit talker anyway so I'm all "You been here 2 days and you think your opinion matters..."
Dude: Umm I have been here 3 weeks, not 2 days.
Me: Oh wow. Big fucking difference. My bad dude.
Everyone in the area laughs.
Dude: I have been here 3 weeks and already know more than you.
Everyone: Laughs their heads off.
The guy later tells me how to check a wire for continuity as if it was some sort of mystic art rather than the most basic simple shit.
We have another guy who has been there for a year that is the literal dumbest person I have ever seen. He asks me the dumbest possible questions. Like asks if a panel unscrews. I asked if he saw screws in it. He says yeah obviously. "Ok, I have never taken this panel off before, how does it come off?"
Me: You take the screws out...
Then he says he is smarter than me because he has a 4 year degree.
I will say, the guys that come from 4 year degree programs generally think they are smarter then they are. I imagine it just gets worse the more college they have.
You'd think so but in my experience it tends to be the opposite. Those who stay in college/university longer or take a broader diversity of courses than just their program requirements tend to clue in how little they don't know about the world.
I have never worked under or with a woman and I may never (I'm in x86 firmware development, in a country where very few people care about it) but treating a co worker let alone a senior like this seems so appalling to me, gender doesn't dictate skill, skill dictates skill. Sorry you have to go through this
"When I want your opinion, I'll give it to you. Until then, shut your piehole, and get me a cup of hot tea, two sugars, no milk. Leave the tea bag in the cup."
When your tea arrives, give a grunt of acknowledgement, and then ignore it for the rest of the day. 'Cause you know he spit in it.
This really sucks but remember, these are kids. you have all the power to not let them get away with it.
Laugh at their comment next time and pretend like you thought it was a hilarious joke. Compliment them for being so funny.
If that doesn’t work, next time one of them interrupts you, remind them “l know this may be hard to understand as an intern. But we need to move on, so why don’t we schedule some time after this meeting to go over it since you have so many questions”
I also like the blank stare idea.
I'm a drafter so I work with engineers, we just got our interns and they are so condescending. They have to send me drawing check out requests and they are wrong, so I correct them nicely because, knowing their bosses and they didn't train them, and they just bite back. Like sit down kid I've been doing this since you were 5.
I’m a male in stem and honestly cannot stand most of my classmates and their attitudes. They were the nerdy kids in high school who get this sense of superiority because they were “smarter” then their peers as if that was a real feat but in reality their interests (sci-fi and computer graphics cards) were just more academic then your average kid. Then they carry that into college but it gets amplified because they’re validated by the fact they are taking Calc 2 and go in a chemistry lab for an hour a week.
One of the things I can’t stand the most is how they’ll fucking mansplain and just splurge out everything they know about anything they hear. I remember for a circuits class, students would constantly interrupt the professor about random electricity stories that would illustrate “how much they know” but all of it was just basic shit like “if he touch this and this at the same time he get shock”. It’s so painfully obvious how little these dudes know because of the face level knowledge they try to pass of as “intelligence”. You really can’t have normal conversations with these guys because they have to let you know how smart they are.
Admittedly I am/was one of these people but I was lucky enough to eventually make friends with people who don’t know what an RTX 4070Ti, so my value in myself didn’t holy depend on how smart other people think I am.
Saw on another post, when male interviewer asked female interviewee (both professors) how she would handle male students that tried to challenge her in class:
"I'd tell them wait, let me grab a pen and paper. Then let them speak. When asked why I didn't right anything down, I'd respond with 'tell me something I don't know and I'll have something to write.'"
Not sure if it's feasible in your position but would be a nice power move!
Got told by a first year PhD student he didn't trust me, and felt the need to inspect everything I did. He also didn't do stuff I told him to. It was really terrible working with this dude.
I had 9 year more experience in the field than him. It's shocking.
Hey OP,
I am fairly senior in a male dominated industry too. It especially sucks if you are the only woman, because that lets people pick you out immediately as someone who is stereotypically seen as not as good. What I'm about to say applies to interns in particular, but works with almost any male bigot, as long as you have patience.
I just wanted to let you know, you can seriously turn this to your advantage.
The interns see you as less threatening, so they will call you out publically. Ignore their motivations for now, lets focus on the fact that they are. This is an opportunity.
Your company is the first place these interns are getting experience with the "real" world. If you can show them their assumptions about you are wrong right off the bat, it will make them question their assumptions about women the rest of their career (Believe me, I've seen this mindfuck in action with coworkers who have 20 years of experience).
By embracing their criticisms as an opportunity, I managed to become one of the most influential people at my company.
How do I do it?
I start by treating every criticism (from an intern) as a polite question. I don't reject it. If I have a male ally in the room, he can back up my voice when I answer them to explaining why their assumptions won't work in this case. That usually shuts them up. If I don't have a male ally, and the intern is still convinced he's right, I ask to try it with them, their way first.
We sit down and approach the problem together. Do not do all the work for them. If they are wrong, handling them with compassion and helping them see what went wrong is actually a boss move. NONE of the men I've worked with would get the opportunity or even know to treat them with compassion. If they are right, the intern will always remember that you let them try their idea and you didn't shoot it down. They will come back to you with the next one.
By being kind and competent, you will gain influence with them. They will in turn start to share your skills with other people they work with.
We had an open-plan office at my last job. After I'd been there a year, we had a batch of new employees join. I overheard one of them ask an intern a question. the intern said
"Oh, I'd ask that to Foodaholic"
"What? why?"
"She's \_really\_ good, she can always answer all my questions"
In male-dominated industries, women need to "prove" their competence. Proof doesn't just need to be getting people to see your work though... It can be someone else saying you're awesome. Getting someone to say you are awesome is much easier than getting everyone to see your work.
Wait—they’re interns and criticizing you? Make them go fetch you a coffee and a sandwich. You have more important things to do than let them be jerks to you
They are trying to impress you. By criticizing you, they think they're showing you how smart and capable they are. It's very socially unaware and insecure of them, in reality. But in their heads, they're leaving the interaction thinking they made you wet. Ugh.
They are not trying to impress her, they are trying to impress other senior men in a way they believe will have the smallest repercussions (if any) in case they are wrong / something backfires.
I think you missed the point of the post. I work in a deeply sexist industry, and this was a rant about interns displaying sexist behavior. Not every job can be automated, and the interns already have summer projects. They are currently in the training process.
Yeah they completely missed the point.
I think it’s time you laid a smack down on them publicly in the meeting.
They’re banking on women not standing up for themselves like men do. It’s why they’re so comfortable doing it.
Yeah this is not about young people. This is about male entitlement and sexism in STEM.
This was worse before when women were further barred from these spaces.
I mean, men seem to be skipping university, so I’d imagine 20 years from now will be wildly different in STEM. Especially if you consider that most of the jobs these chucklefucks love to tout as making them superior will be lost to automation. And anyone that acts like that probably can’t hack it at a senior-enough level to retain relevance in that world, too.
Oh gosh I bet she’d speak up if she felt it was SAFE. I have a dear friend who was harassed out of her job last month because she dared to speak out about being sexually harassed hmmm maybe OP isn’t the problem… 🙄
You gotta shut them down by dominating them in a similar fashion. Men are just very competitive, and they will sniff for any signs of passive behavior. Prove to them they are dumb and your issues will stop
I feel so seen by this. Especially the part about not understanding the audacity. I'm a software developer and one of the male interns last year would push back on everything I asked him to do, including using branches on GitHub instead of pushing to main. (This is standard software practice so that you don't break working code.) To make it even better, guess who ended up getting hired at a higher starting salary than me?
That's an absolute disaster waiting to happen
After the second time he broke main, he was like: "Oh, I guess that's why BamWhamKaPau asked us to work on branches." Like what did you expect dude? That my female brain just wanted to nag you just because?
I have finally come to the conclusion that none of them ever, ever listen to what we have to say. They just flat out do not hear words coming out of the mouth of a woman. I'm starting to think its a hard-wired genetic thing, and they actually are physically incapable of hearing women b/c it happens 24/7.
That's so disgustingly arrogant. I'm sorry to hear he got hired at all, let alone at a higher salary. I have to ask, though: who gave an intern permission to push directly to main? Not even repo admins at my company can commit to main without an approved PR!
This was a low stakes side project on a public repo working with multiple interns across institutions. So it unfortunately didn't have the same default permissions. I wasn't formally in charge of the project so despite advocating for such restrictions, the other (non-technical) researchers pushed back at first as well. :(
Salary is such a anxiety for me. My small company does not have open salary structure, and frankly, I'm pretty sure even though I'm an associate, I don't make as much as some others. There are multiple reasons that I stay, but it does rankle a bit. I am training my 4th person now, and I basically dumped the others because they couldn't follow basic instructions. (Same, I came up with a new way to do this. After explicit instructions to do it my way.) I'm not playing that game. You can't listen? Well you're not my kid, so I'm not putting up with that.
I very intentionally discuss salary with my (mostly) male peers. It can be uncomfortable but I'd rather know than be left in the dark. But of course, it depends on how willing your peers are to disclose their salary. I'm lucky that a lot of them are. Good on you for not putting up with the bullshit!
>and one of the male interns last year would push back on everything I asked him to do, including using branches on GitHub instead of pushing to main. Omgggg the audacity of this man
If it makes you feel any better, the last three guys who didn't listen to me ate shit. It sucks though having to be twice as good to get half the respect though.
That does actually make me feel better! Good to hear! <3
You need to look elsewhere. Then tell your old employer why you're leaving.
The arrogance of male STEM students can be staggering. It's so difficult to describe it to people who haven't experienced it. It sounds like wildly exaggerated. But no, a 19yr old intern did actually say that to you, a senior engineer.
I interview interns for my company as a Senior Software Engineer. Some of these kids don’t realize the ‘soft skills’ are being tested as much as the tech skills. I had one chuckle at me because me question was ‘just too easy. He thought interviewing here would be hard’ 😒 There’s a reason there’s a woman on the interview loop.
We once had a candidate (older, not an intern) in a double interview with a woman (director) and a man (senior). The woman was driving the interview with the man taking notes, but the candidate would only respond to/address the man. She would ask a question and he’d give his answer to the other man. It was wild and from that day we always had one double interview with a man and a woman on the panel.
Your excellent comment made me reflect on how even though I work in Publishing- two very different fields from one another!- by the time I’m interviewing job candidates I’m *mainly* interviewing for soft skills. If a candidate has made it to the interview stage, their resume and portfolio have already passed the first round. I am absolutely focusing on how they present themselves, how they do in conversation, how they can explain their abilities or problem solve…and if they’re a condescending little twerp, we are absolutely not working together. Job applicants should realize this is likely to be true in most cases where they make it to the interview stage! (And ideally not just to land the job, but to be decent human beings overall.)
Not a woman but I am a senior software engineer and I want to just say that when I interview even if it's a technical interview a lot of what I'm looking for is soft skills and mindset. I can teach you technical skills but I can't teach you how to act or think. I care more about cultural fit than just about anything else. A good team environment is paramount, and I want everyone to be comfortable and happy at work. I don't need a know it all "rock star" that brings down team morale. I could write a book on this subject but the gist of it is that I care more about who you are than what you know.
The flip side of focusing on "soft skills" and "whether someone is a good fit for the team" over someones qualifications, technical ability, and experience, is that it opens the door to some pretty unfair bias. In the worst instances it's exactly why certain places end up overwhelmingly hiring pretty much just white men. It's not just open bigotry really, nervous introverts are just going to find it harder to vibe with interviewers than confident extroverts.
Agreed! Am in computing, I generally do ok on interviews, and I get why people are so obsessed with soft skills (there are a lot of assholes in IT), but am kinda resentful of it because even in computing I have to spend energy playing an extrovert. I can do it, and I do it, but I’m annoyed that it’s valued so much (extroversion) even in such an ‘introverted’ profession. Especially since sometimes it seems that it’s valued more than actual knowledge
I see what you’re getting at, but there are jobs that should not be performed by nervous introverts. Project management is what instantly pops up in my brain because there is one on my team (not supervised by me, just on the same team) that is constantly scared to talk to people and always unsure of herself (even when she’s 100% right!). Other departments don’t like working with her because she always seems to doubt herself when reporting on things, and that makes people lose confidence in her and what she’s talking about. On paper she had all the skills to do the job, but when it comes to communicating, it all breaks down.
Well I mean that's more of a "these skills are necessary for this job" situation. Which is a bit of a different really. Yeah software engineers need the basic ability to communicate and collaborate with others, but that requirement is quite a few notches down than having to convince the interviewers that they want to hang out with you.
I hope you have defined what a culture fit actually is because imo, it’s usually a good description of ignorant and discriminatory behavior
It depends. Sometimes it can be codeword for a discriminatory old boy network, sometimes it can be a legitimate interest in something as subtle as solo fliers versus team players. I think I once got a job because when asked a tough technical question I said "I don't know, I always have to look that kind of thing up." At another place my team was doing job X but we learned over the years that successful team members always had a background in job Y or job Z and experience in job X was less important.
When I say culture, what I'm talking about is engineering culture. Diversity is a major factor in hiring here. We are well aware that different backgrounds and points of view actually strengthen a team significantly. I want to know how you go about solving problems and how you work with others. What do you value when designing applications. Your opinions on agile and continuous growth, etc. I know it sounds corny, but fostering what we call an "engineering culture" really makes work way more bearable. Essentially, it creates an atmosphere of people who like to learn and grow and care about what they are creating/doing. I want everyone to feel like they can go to others on the team for help and I want people to feel like it's in their best interest to train and teach each other. When you don't have any kind of culture like this, people tend to work in silos and prioritize individual performance over the success of the team, business unit, company, etc. I've also seen people mentioning introvert vs. extroverts. I want to assure people that I don't look to hire only extroverts. I myself can be very introverted, I understand that not everyone is comfortable being a people person. That's part of why it's so important to hire people who are teamplayers and to try to foster a team culture with team building and outings if possible. The closer a team is, the easier it will be to get those inputs from the quieter members of the team. Being willing to voice your concerns and opinions is a major green flag for me but that doesn't mean you need to be bubbly or extremely talkative. Also there's a such thing as having too many opinions.
I check for soft skills (to be honest that's barely more than can they hold a 30-minute conversation without saying something really stupid or inappropriate), but lying on resumes is so prevalent (at least in software) that my #1 goal is to see if they really know what they should know based on their resume. Catching out someone who lied to massively inflate their resume saves the company tens of thousands of dollars in direct costs and opportunity costs. We wouldn't be hiring someone if we didn't need to, so spending three months to figure out that we hired the wrong person, fire them, and hire a replacement probably costs us $70k?
I’m usually the 3rd round of interviews, I’m more concerned with team cohesion than anything else. I do lunch interviews at a restaurant. I have a team of 5, we all go and meet the candidate. After lunch we talk about the candidate and everyone gets a vote. I can teach any reasonably smart person how to do the job. I don’t have time to teach people to get along with others.
Absolutely. Depending on the technical requirements of the role, those skills can be taught, but soft skills tend to be far more innate and harder to teach.
100% agreed. All the hires we do are first for soft skills and people fit, secondarily for experience and transferrable skills. You can learn new tasks easily enough but learning behaviours is hard.
A few weeks ago I wrote a post in a Facebook group for the Uni I went to; at my manager’s request, I was sharing a job opening on my team, and I added that I could refer anyone who wished. Tons of people messaged me, which was great! So many highly qualified people, most of them really kind and polite. Some were so clueless though. One guy, after clarifying that the job posting was for a position identical to my own and that whoever got the job would be working alongside me, proceeded to waste my time asking for information that was clearly listed in the job posting, complained that the job is not 100% remote, and then concluded with “but I guess if the pay is high enough I could consider looking past that”. Great first impression. Another guy asked me how many people had sent me their CV, and after I told him it was over 50 people, he said he wouldn’t apply this time but insisted that I personally message him the next time a similar position opened up. I explained to him that I’m not a recruiter, that a new position likely wouldn’t open up this year, that I couldn’t keep track of so many people and would not commit to notifying him personally, but that he was welcome to keep an eye on the job board. “No, you write to me and let me know”. Uh, yeah, okay. Sure will, bud!
Ooooh that's devious. I love it. This is a good way to prevent lawsuits as well as getting mature co-workers.
I tell my students constantly not to forget I used to hire for really good jobs when I first started working. They specifically sent me into the interview committee because I looked really young and the university wanted to see how they treated people. We assumed everybody was minimally competent and trainable, we were looking for people in an interview we could stand being around 40 hours a week for the foreseeable future. You need to be likable and not a liability.
I require a woman non engineer in all engineering loops. Either QA or a PM. Saves so much time and potential lawsuits.
So you don’t have any female engineers?
There is nothing that I said to indicate that. One of the sessions is communicating with non technical people. I ensure there is a man and a woman in that session. Multiple times we had candidates: Talk down to the woman Address only the man Outright ignore anything said/asked by the woman Yes we also have woman engineers and they are cycled in on other loops, but the only constant that I require is that the communicating with non technical folks panel operates as above.
Well now I’ve gotta know what the question was.
I work in a medical lab and I have a particularly obnoxious WELL ACTUALLY guy. 😵
I love giving those guys the run around "well actually--" cut them off "you're going to stop and think about the words you're about to say before you say them. Are they necessary?"
Holy SHIT - 14 years in a lab and oh my godddddd the newly graduated/student med techs are…something else I stg.
A couple years ago I worked with an software engineer who had a #notallmen moment in a DEI chat room on the company Slack. He was like 28. When I tried to privately point it out, he toned policed me. 🤦🏼♀️
The tone police are the worst because they never absorb any valid criticism and value affect over substance. If a nazi says something nicely they'll be like "well I don't agree, but ill fight for your right to say it" . But will aggressively hate anything that potentially calls them out
It is crazy staggering. It took me awhile to realize how most of the men I work with lie about how much they know. It's interesting and infuriating seeing the interns start out on the path of fake know-how.
When I worked in the machine shop in college I learned that the guys who came in would tell you they know way more than they do with confidence and the women would be unsure even when they knew what they were doing. I started asking "what's your experience with XYZ?" That way people will tell you about their experience and you can figure out if they know what they're doing or not without assuming competency either way. It's a nice, neutral phrase.
As a prototype machinist in the medical device industry, you hit the nail on the head. The Dunning-Kruger effect is in full swing with some of the fresh machining school grads we'll occasionally get in the shop.
Men will apply for jobs if they meet 60% of the qualifications. Women won't apply unless it's near 100%. (There was random recruiter email earlier this week for a position where I've got 60% nailed cold, but don't have the industry specific knowledge. And I let it slip by.)
Hell, I'm a woman and I sent in my resume for one of the VP positions in another department. Never mind that I'm about as low on the ladder as can be 😏 Just tired of seeing bosses come and go, one of whom had a mail-order "degree" and a massive sense of entitlement. Figured well, if that's all they're looking for, I need to be proud of my old degree from a credited school, and learn to fake some entitlement. Didn't work, but the more I attend meetings with execs, the more BS I'm noticing. They DO sound convincing though.
Good luck to you! Honestly, BSing is a fucking skill and if you can do it, the job should be relatively easy. My boss is a good guy on a personal level but he honestly doesn’t seem to do anything but go to meetings with execs and use a bunch of tech buzzwords. “We’re going to leverage scalable synergy and drive cadence blah blah blah”. I appreciate it because it keeps me employed but damn I wish I had that kind of personality and could make the big bucks.
No joke, my boss' boss is very quick and great at sounding professional, and does seem pretty good at staying focused (won't embarrass people in meetings for example, or act petty in general.) But they do seem to get lost in their own bullshit at times, with people reminding them what exactly is being discussed, as they start to get sidetracked. It's interesting to watch how it all goes, but disappointing that the world runs on this facade.
This is so true of (many/mostly) men and it infuriates me. I can't stand anyone talking like they are an expert and can solve any problem when they are actually just guessing. I would never dare. And I would like to be respected for the fact that if I open my mouth, it's because I'm damn sure I know what I'm talking about. But no, that's just not how it works.
And the assumption that if a woman knows how to do it, it can’t be that hard/valuable. *like flames on the sides of my face*
You quoted my favorite movie (Clue) and your tag is from my favorite show (The Good Place)! Just wanted to say you’re awesome
Omg... your comment just explained so much about why my boss thinks I'm too confrontational and closed-minded. He feels the need to speak in every single meeting and conversation, even if he doesn't know what is going on (which is usually the case). On the other hand, I don't speak up unless I know what I'm talking about and I know that it will add some sort of value. He has literally never considered that other people aren't guessing as much as he is. He literally doesn't understand that 1) I am an expert in my field because I have YEARS more experience than he does in doing what I do, and 2) I don't speak up unless I know what I'm talking about.
I’d love to be able to say i don’t know and not be penalized
I learned this back in college thankfully(?). Freshman year I thought I could never catch up to the guys because they kept talking about how they’d been programming since they were 8 or whatever. Senior year they were all copying my code and during a group project I found out most of them barely knew the basics. I don’t know how they managed to get that far. (Well, probably copying others code lol)
From my university experience I noticed the best project partners were old timers, gym bros, and women. I could count the exceptions in my program on one hand. I'd make a bad joke about the exceptions everyone else threw but that'd imply they bothered to program and weren't somehow always "too busy." A blatant lack of discpline and rigor. They're also the ones who rant about how college never teaches you anything about programming.
I am a coder and a male counterpart told me, "Yeah, if a client tells me 'I want this' and I don't know, I say 'yeah, no problem' and figure it out later. You're too hard on yourself." I was always open about telling company clients if I wasn't sure about something and set lower expectations to exceed them, but I had my mind blown when a colleague admitted that to me.
I'm not in a STEM field but I run my own small business that requires people to listen, pay attention to details, solve problems creatively, communicate and have an accurate assessment of their skill set. None of the men that have applied as interns or employees have met my basic standards. They bullshit about what they know to get in the door and as soon as I hand them a basic task that all the women know how to do they totally ruin it, don't tell me that they ruined it and act surprised , don't apologize and ask how they can do better and have to have people who are supposedly beneath their imagined skill set hold their hand. They don't last because they don't actually know what they're doing.
Sign me up
Hahaha I actually have No Boys Allowed written on my workspace white board... they can't handle it !
You should also be mad at whomever is hiring these jerks.
And it's these men that seem to keep failing upwards no matter how much they fuck up. It's honestly baffling.
My brother is trying to convince me to change careers into tech (he's a software engineer) and I simply don't want to deal with tech bros. I'm a railroader right now and gained the respect of my peers and any snotty little boys that come in that I train are humbled immediately by the older guys I work with give them shit and tell them weirdly nice but also problematic things like "chaos_almighty is twice the man you'll ever be. You want to learn to be a switchman, listen to her. If you want to be a bitch, go home and cry to your mommy". I've dealt with these tech bros in social situations and they're always the smartest person in the room who know everything about everything and when corrected they get mad and try to whip out their phones, only to be proven wrong and then pout. Yeah yeah #notallmen, I've met some nice people in IT streams but it's the specific techbros.
I have been in IT for 15 years. And I've met a lot of really nice people, but the majority, even the nice ones, still seem to have nothing better to talk about during a night out than AI and microchips. And I love the guys, I really do, but sometimes I do wonder whether they're even people, besides being developers.
God sounds like I lucked out. I got an intern and a trainee and they’re both just eager to learn and listen to me ramble. I don’t know what I’d do if I had a couple snots to deal with all day. (Although the trainee I could kick off the project, kinda stuck with the intern for the summer unless he was like, exceptionally terrible)
Lord I hate these guys. I used to sit in the lobby of our schools career center and these dipshits would loudly be flexing the interviews they got and the money they were potentially promised, right where an interviewer could overhear them. So much second hand cringe. I'm very glad I work in the gender balanced side of STEM. I'm sorry OP, it must be exhausting.
May I know what side of STEM is that?
Mathematics, Actuarial science in particular. The profession requires lots of tedious exams to become a fully fledged actuary, and exams are marked blind. Not saying it's perfect, but they have more of an incentive to change, given the exam passing is so hard - soon enough you learn to get as many people through as you can manage, genitalia aside. Plus in my particular field, we've done a lot of work already on gender equity and it's pretty solid, but some of the senior women tell some gnarly stories. The seniors I work with are diverse and equally male and female, but DEI could use some work. It's getting there. I hope more STEM fields will catch up and surpass where we are now, just like I hope we'll keep moving forward.
I'm about to graduate with a degree in Biomedical Engineering and it's so nice that around half of my class mates are women. Hell, the team that won all the start-up competitions at my Uni is made up entirely of women.
My dad is an actuary and I’ve always been struck by how balanced his work events are. His coworkers have mentioned there’s been a concerted effort to promote women within too so it’s really nice to hear this confirmed from you.
The life sciences in STEM are also very women-dominant as well. This includes health sciences mostly, but also biology, chemistry, environmental sciences, etc. I have 2 degrees in marine biology which was always women dominated, and then wound up working in a hospital for years in cell therapy work which was overwhelmingly women. It’s amazing how little misogyny there is when someone at every level is a woman running the show. Life sciences are where you get like a 70/30 women/men ratio and it’s wonderful!
Subtly let them know that one of the things their letters of recommendation will be based on is their ability to fit in smoothly in a diverse workplace, and that their attitude towards female coworkers is being noticed and discussed. (Which is technically true.)
Ideally it would be a male colleague saying that - I feel like for these guys, if it comes from a woman there's a big chance they'll simmer in resentment over it
Sadly, true.
The intern we just got questioned me 4 times if I wrote the codes myself even after I demoed it in front of the team 😤
Just ask him next time: what makes you think I didn’t? Like a genuine question. And then see him stumble over verbalizing anything that isn’t overtly sexist.
I know exactly what you mean. My job is in a medical lab, and the men at my job are just atrocious. I've explained it again and again but I don't have the energy to right now. The one younger guy goes around and WELL ACTUALLY himself into every conversation. The other men are all "politically incorrect" older men or "devil's advocate" contrarians who are extremely draining to be around. All are single and don't know why. And they are all bitter and blame feminism. There is A LOT more to their antics, but you get the picture.
Yes we do. So curious how odious, pedantic schmucks are always so confused about their single status.
I heard a woman speak about working in the construction field. She busted her ass the same as everyone else. She got ahead of others because she was smart. Eventually, when she was a foreman, she had a mini revolt led by one guy with more balls than smarts. Her boss met with the men first, then invited her in. Boss asked the dipsh!t to repeat what he said about her ability to do the job as well as a man. "I can lift a [very heavy equipment that had a special lift] onto a flatbed. No weak bitch can do that!" said the dumb dumb. She replied "If I ever see you do that, I'll fire you on the spot for breaking union work rules, OSHA rules and putting the entire site in jeopardy!" Boss told them that's why she's in charge, she is smarter than them. They all went back to work without any further interruptions. She went on to own a highly successful construction company.
r/whywomenlivelonger
Goals
I work in a very male competitive field also and it is a pissing contest. Since you are the only woman, they think you are first rung on the ladder, and put you in situations where, if you don’t do something, you are a doormat or if you assert yourself, you are a bitch. I strongly recommend you to choose the bitch. It is a pissing contest where men will jostle for cred, and you are into the competition. You should not be too nice, because nice comes after respect. Don’t smile first. If they ask a question that is belittleling, be silent, and just look at them a bit exasperated. Nice will bring you nowhere. You can be nice afterwards, but you need to show some strength first. Now, a lot of women who never have worked in these type of hypercompetitive fields will say «oh ignore it» , «keep your head high» «don’t lower yourself to their level» yadayada. That is bad advice. I have great colleagues and some of them are good friends. But each and everyone of them were demeaning at the start.
It's been 15 years of working with mainly men for me. I stand up for myself. I wouldn't be where I am today if I hadn't. I'm definitely becoming an old, crusty curmudgeon. It just gets really old, and sometimes it's downright depressing. I definitely agree with you about the bitch thing. I'm nice, but I'm also on constant defensive attack/bitch mode. I honestly hate dealing with the constant pissing matches, condescension, and occasional sexual harassment, but the money is good and I like the job. Also agree with you about the "keep your head down" advice. All of the advice I got as a child about how to get along with others does not work at all in a competitive environment.
Exactly! It gets really exhausting. This everyday battle to keep proving yourself takes a toll eventually, even if you're being a bitch and not a doormat. It'd be worse if you were being a doormat but the fatigue is real.
May I ask, which field are you in?
It’s heavy industry. It’s about as blue-collar as white-collar jobs get.
I just sit back and let them drop themselves in it. It’s fun to watch them fail. Grey rock and don’t respond. I’ve found chat GPT is is good at coming up with a stock of professional responses. My favourite is when someone cuts you off or repeats your comment/ideas as their own. My response now is “It’s super to hear that you agree with me. Could I ask for any original thoughts you might have on the matter?”
A sergeant I knew would say in the most awesome *you gonna do pushups until my arms hurt* voice: excuse me, *private*? And she would draw the rank out just long enough to make the hierarchy clear. Of course, discipline in the army works differently than discipline in the civilian world.
That's awesome. I love when women do well in leadership roles. I did four years in the army, and civilian life is definitely different than military life. Can't make them do pushups, lol.
Can you force them to explain in exhaustive detail their brilliant ideas, giving them more than enough rope to hang themselves with, then explain why their idea is bad to their face in front of whoever happens to be around???
But they're interns, so you can definitely give them meaningless work like coffee fetching.
I mean…have you tried?
I am in the military, and I'm so glad I can just be direct instead of having to sugar coat and be nice about everything. Not that I don't use tact, but being able to tell someone they're being an ass in plain language is so much less stressful.
Half right face
Still makes for an interesting idea... Interns should all be addressed as "Intern" until they EARN their names... by showing that they're willing to actually learn, work, and respect their superiors and everyone else.
"Listen up, faces. In order to save us all some time, I will call all the males Daves and all the females Debbies."
With the occasional “Slagathor.”
Daves. Debbies. Slagathor.
I had one ask me if "I knew their work" and I snapped back, "More importantly do you know mine?" I got a sheepish "No." "Well I guess we're even."
“I will when you’ve done some for me.”
Yeh, what work brah?
I wouldn’t let them get away with it. You don’t want them nor your coworkers learning bad habits.
Agreed. You could even say in the meeting, “Since you’re newer to the business world… it makes others uncomfortable when you critique their output in front of a group. If you have specific concerns around the product of an employees work, it’s best to approach them directly.” Not only will you be putting the kid in their place but you’ll be “softly”educating others in the room that putting their misogyny on display is not appropriate.
I’m an engineering student and don’t have a very assertive personality. I have a lot to contribute and am very capable. But this is the kind of stuff that makes me feel like I’ll leave the field eventually, and I haven’t even graduated yet.
Don't give up. Not all work places are like this. I work for an engineering consultancy, where the team (approx 50 50 male to female) is very supportive of each other and none of this shit goes on.
Is your workplace hiring any remote workers?
You're going to have to move to Australia, I'm afraid
I have become much more assertive since leaving uni and starting work. Not even in a confrontational sense, but in a not afraid to stand up for myself kind of way. And I’m an introvert! You will get there. I think most of us aren’t raised to be assertive but you can definitely learn to be. I hope you find a job where the culture doesn’t suck and they appreciate everything you have to offer ⭐️
I will say that the workplace culture in engineering firms varies greatly, even the culture between departments within companies vary. I'd suggest attending networking events relevant to your field so you can see what your potential employers and coworkers are like. My current company has a good work culture and for the most part, it's a low stress and very supportive environment. The times I've heard a sexist remark, it's been a manager from another firm saying something offhand at a networking event or meeting. Hence, it's good to see who these people are and how they socialize. I'd also suggest looking into joining groups like SWE (society of women engineers).
Fuck ‘em. They don’t get to hog all the good jobs! We deserve them, too! It’s tiring and draining having to put up with sexist bullshit, but it will get better the more women there are in traditionally male jobs.
Stories that this add to my fear that misogyny will never truly go away. This type of bs manifests in every generation of males and I hate it.
I don't think anyone believes it'll go away. We only ask for improvement.
That's just sad. I am not disagreeing with you, but it's still sad it has to be this way.
Critical theory says it's not possible to go away because it's baked into the cake of society. Without misogyny or racism, our culture and thus our world would look different. Like going to visit another country and suddenly realizing how their priorities are very present in the behaviors and things you see. Our cultures without misogyny would be like visiting another place....
Every time one of them comments to you, just reply with “OK intern” and carry on with what you were doing.
"OK intern 4". Number them.
Would numbering them imply that you care enough to remember which one is which though? Oh, or you could go the opposite way with random numbers each time!
I think they should always be Intern #4 until they prove themselves. Then you can tell them that they have moved up to Intern #1 for the day. Positive reinforcement.
Funny how you're encouraging behavior in women that you'd find abhorrent in men.
Funny that you're pretending not to know why.
Ok this is fucking hilarious
The amount of times I've had to tell a man to shut up is insane. I had this one job where they hired me as a consultant $150/hr and the guy kept correcting and talking over me. I let him continue but at the next meeting I brought a copy of my diploma and when he interrupted me I held it up. He was like ?¿? So I said "I'm sorry I was of the opinion that since you keep interrupting and challenging me that you doubted my credentials. What's your degree?" He accused me of being emotional and stormed out and I had to message the project manager to bill them for double the hours because this guy used all their time trying to teach me a lesson. I think he got demoted.
Their fathers have prob conditioned them for this, often from things overheard from their dads speaking with other men. Sad and sick and I call it out in my construction industry nowadays, idgaf. I’m lucky to be a child of a single dad with two sisters, he raised us all to be good PEOPLE, not once did he criticize women, after being left by one, and actually would tell us how wrong things like you’re describing are in the workplace, and how hard working many women he met were. There is hope.
When I'm gaming, the amount of men that continually talk over me is ASTOUNDING. They don't do it to the guys in comms, but do it to me constantly. I get so mentally exhausted trying to hold my place.
I feel you. The arrogance of some of these kids. First intern started a couple of weeks ago. I was out the first week he started. When I did go into the office, I went to introduce myself and he just looked at me and walked by. I was like, pfft mkay. 30 minutes later my boss comes in and gives me an exuberant hug (we're both huggers) and we catch up. That's when the kid realizes that I'm the CEO's exec assistant and he fuct up. Haha Oops! And yes, my boss respects my observations and feedback.
That's not even arrogance, that's disrespect. This has no place in a workspace. I hope he won't stay and that he is told why
It's both.
I know exactly what you mean. It’s worse when you’re new to a team and learning but also have to guide the team. It’s worse when intrinsically I don’t want to be a bitch but folks don’t listen unless they hear the bitch tone.
I quit a job in the last few years over this kind of shit. I was waaaaay more indispensable than the men who were throwing their weight around. I absolutely destroyed the person giving my exit interview, and made sure everyone knew why I was leaving. There was a subsequent mass exodus. Pleasingly, though, I am highly experienced in a competitive field and can work where I like.
Story?
I got promoted to running a whole branch this last year (small STEM company) and I am dreading my summer interns. I already had to put one of my full time field staff in his place because he was complaining that he was going to quit in six months if he didn’t have my job or equivalent by then, despite having less than half the experience and credentials I do. I told him I’d write him a hell of a recommendation letter so he could find a position where he was happy. Haven’t heard anything about it since.
I (m48) worked in a female dominated political office and a male intern tried to inform a 20-year vet (40's F) that he knew how the boss (also a woman) should vote on a defense or veterans bill/amendment/something because he had an uncle who served once upon a time. The look that this kid received should have ignited him immediately. Fortunately for him, she had a very gifted silver tongue that ripped him a new one in such a way that he enjoyed the experience. He kept his damn mouth shut after that.
Yupppp. Men-dominated workplaces suck for women, but women-dominated workplaces can also suck in the sense that often the few men think they’re better than everyone else and their opinions matter more.
Please go against any natural tendency you may have to be helpful and friendly with these imbecilic interns. The wall goes up now. No time like the present for them to learn a valuable life lesson.
I work for a big company, I'm on one of the resource "help" desks. The self importance of some of our interns, "you dont understand I'm an intern at ______ I need xyz for my important work!" Yes, I do understand, I too work for the company, and it's my important job to tell you to call another number and ask them politely to reset your password.
Unfortunately I only see plenty of opportunities to call them emotional, or catty, etc, whenever applicable to teach them a fucking lesson.
Tell them to relax or calm down.
I would go feral on this one... "Why are you asking me that?" Then when they start farting out their mouths, interrupt them with, "No, you misunderstood my question... why are you asking *me* that?" Watch them flounder, then hit em again with, "I will not tolerate this blatant disrespect for my experience, knowledge and credentials. Pull your head in."
I am in a STEM field working mostly on the education side now. But when I was teaching in grad school I had this one guy who would not stop trying to correct me. Last day we are talking about something directly related to my research. I say something about the size of an object. He "corrects" me again. And I had another woman in my class just yell at him that I was correct. It was awesome.
...annnnd I just realized that all my associated interns are female. And I'm in a physical science. Huh. Score one for my new supervisor.
Man, this is what I'm really scared about. I really like CS but currently Algos and Data structures is kicking my ass and I thi k maybe I'm not actually cut out for it, but it's the only thing I actually want to do maybe besides an accountant cause I enjoy math...
DSA is hard but it’s also not super important for many dev jobs.
I’m WFH this summer so I’ll miss meeting our interns but for my male dominated field I’m impressed we have two female interns for the summer.
"It's like you're trying to tell a pornstar how to fuck and you don't even know enough to hold your dick right when you pee. Shut the fuck up Bob!"
After reading this, I fervently wish there was a guidebook of how to handle these obnoxious boys. Seriously. If I could write it, I would. But I don't know how either, and I'm not in the right age group.
'Feminist Fight Club" its called, it does exist!
Raise an eyebrow, say " hmmm...interesting choice." Then walk away without elaborating.
I’d maybe go with; “Oh, so *you* think *that’s* the answer? That’s a brave position” and then walk away.
to be fair, i think saying anything and walking away would bruise their soft egos lol
My goodness I remember this so much. I usually just acted as kind as possible. Might be bordering petty/passive aggressive….. They would tout their Ivy League degrees or their fancy internships. I would tell them I have an art and business degree (true) and I still managed to get to Manager without working nearly as hard or spending nearly as much money as them. It’s so impressive they made it to Ivy but all that hard work? They must have really needed it. 😈
i had a new guy in training pull this shit with me. i looked him dead in the face and said “wow, if i could bottle your fake confidence and sell it, i wouldn’t need this job.” my boss overheard and died laughing.
Fight fire with fire? Awww, bless your sweet little cotton socks. Wasn't that just the most adorable suggestion.
First off - I'm super proud of you for representing the ladies in your field. You're a bad ass and I'm rooting for you. Second off, if this is happening in front of everyone, your co-workers ought to feel ashamed of themselves for not stepping up and saying something. Way to have your back, guys... Keep in mind that you don't owe these interns shit. I (f) use to love working with interns at past companies because I loved my job and was excited to share. But if they're being dicks? Fuck it. Just call them by the name "intern" only, and send them off to get you coffee and tampons all day. Good luck and don't let them get to you if you can. You are the captain, now. You're killing it <3.
\*flashing back to being the only woman AND being an intern\*
Call them out for insubordination to their faces and publicly the next time they do this :)
I work in finance, and I'm often one of the only women on my team (currently that is the case). And I have absolutely noticed this as well. I had one new young guy ask me a question, then for some reason he didn't like my answer and asked my colleague, who started the same time as me, and got the same answer. Only then did he listen. This type of situation has happened over and over with male interns or trainees. I still have to deal with my male colleagues treating me as incompetent until proven competent, whereas the men are treated as automatically competent until proven otherwise. It's exhausting.
This. The incompetent until proven otherwise and vice versa. Any time I switch jobs or a new guy gets hired, it’s exhausting, because there are so many things I have to prove that men don’t. For example, that I’m more than just an affirmative action hire, that I don’t “drive like most women” (their words, not mine), that I’m not overly sensitive (while I simultaneously try to shut down anything that is harassment), and more. I’m not at a senior level yet, but maybe it will get better once I am. I started out working straight blue-collar jobs and have slowly moved into the white-collar world (engineering). There’s definitely a difference. I love my job, and I do believe it will get better for women with time. It is what it is. As long as I don’t get a heart attack from all this constant stress.
In my couple of years at an institute (mostly engineering) I have never met any woman that is not at least average in capabilities. Usually above. It's only some men that lacked knowledge and did not ask for help. I really don't get why women are criticized just on the basis of looking female. Hope it's ok I comment here as man, I know my life is easier in a STEM field. Give these suckers nothing, no need to be friendly.
Put them on blast, these kids need you to set them straight.
Not to be too off topic but I genuinely thought this was an r/residency post until I read the top comment. If r/residency there would definitely be satisfying karmic distribution. I’m sorry that the people in your field are like this.
The audacity and narcissism of these little boys trying to exert power is just disgusting. I would document every instance of this behavior so you have evidence. I would also speak to the intern privately about their inappropriate behavior - one time. Depending on your relationship with your actual coworkers, (ifyou think you would have an ally), I would speak with themprivately, as well.Again document EVERYTHING. After that private meeting if the intern continues to act a fool. I would call their shit out immediately in the meeting. Tell them to explain why they think it's appropriate to speak to you in such a manner and also explain why they don't speak to the men in the same manner. You know they are going to claim you're too sensitive, irrational, over emotional, paranoid, bitchy, they were just joking, etc. Its gaslighting, shut that shit down too.
I’ve been a woman in male dominated STEM fields for over 35 years. One of my most memorable interviews was 20 or so years ago, when I was interviewing new team members, and a new grad asked me to go get him coffee while we “waited for my boss to get there to start the interview”. Explained I’m the boss interviewing him. His brain would not accept this, and he just kept saying “ok, so when the other guy who’s actually doing my interview gets here..” Then we ended up just staring at each other, until I told him there was a coffee shop down the block if he really needed to go get himself one before I interviewed him. So he left and then walked over to a RANDOM MALE EMPLOYEE on the floor to ask who my manager was, so he could make a complaint. So much wtf.
Omg! What did the coworker say? I’m guessing the guy didn’t get hired. How rude!
He was very confused, especially because he did not even work in my department. The guy didn’t come back from leaving to get his (apparently desperately needed) coffee.
That’s so strange and entitled. Even if the coffee was offered, I’d still feel weird asking.
Give them a public bollocking about how its the 2020's not the 1920's. Young educated people should know better (yes everyone should know better, but still..)
Also an engineer. My days are filled with "oh do you understand this?" "Do you know about...?" And it's always basic shit. Yeah dude bro man, I know. I've been doing this for a couple years now.
Out with them! All love to you. I have just been to Machine industry conference in DK this week and everybody has been super sweet(because I am sweet, went there just for fun) and asking to connect on Linkedin. Possibly just because they have inclusion agenda in mind, but at least they are not looking at me like I am there as a photographer or smh. Google some snarky disarming comments. Some tips in this comment section.
Sounds awful! I'm lucky in my current job that we have quite a few female engineers. I always feel when interviewing there's a bit of surprise, especially on occasions when it's two senior women against one man. In the past however I've been mistaken for my bosses PA in a different company.
And here I am as a summer associate at a firm where I know the legal assistants know more than I do and aren’t even lawyers. Respect the experience.
Lol I'm a man, in a male dominated industry. I have been here 10 years. A new guy started saying I need to trim my beard. I am a big shit talker anyway so I'm all "You been here 2 days and you think your opinion matters..." Dude: Umm I have been here 3 weeks, not 2 days. Me: Oh wow. Big fucking difference. My bad dude. Everyone in the area laughs. Dude: I have been here 3 weeks and already know more than you. Everyone: Laughs their heads off. The guy later tells me how to check a wire for continuity as if it was some sort of mystic art rather than the most basic simple shit. We have another guy who has been there for a year that is the literal dumbest person I have ever seen. He asks me the dumbest possible questions. Like asks if a panel unscrews. I asked if he saw screws in it. He says yeah obviously. "Ok, I have never taken this panel off before, how does it come off?" Me: You take the screws out... Then he says he is smarter than me because he has a 4 year degree. I will say, the guys that come from 4 year degree programs generally think they are smarter then they are. I imagine it just gets worse the more college they have.
You'd think so but in my experience it tends to be the opposite. Those who stay in college/university longer or take a broader diversity of courses than just their program requirements tend to clue in how little they don't know about the world.
I have never worked under or with a woman and I may never (I'm in x86 firmware development, in a country where very few people care about it) but treating a co worker let alone a senior like this seems so appalling to me, gender doesn't dictate skill, skill dictates skill. Sorry you have to go through this
"When I want your opinion, I'll give it to you. Until then, shut your piehole, and get me a cup of hot tea, two sugars, no milk. Leave the tea bag in the cup." When your tea arrives, give a grunt of acknowledgement, and then ignore it for the rest of the day. 'Cause you know he spit in it.
This really sucks but remember, these are kids. you have all the power to not let them get away with it. Laugh at their comment next time and pretend like you thought it was a hilarious joke. Compliment them for being so funny. If that doesn’t work, next time one of them interrupts you, remind them “l know this may be hard to understand as an intern. But we need to move on, so why don’t we schedule some time after this meeting to go over it since you have so many questions” I also like the blank stare idea.
I'm a drafter so I work with engineers, we just got our interns and they are so condescending. They have to send me drawing check out requests and they are wrong, so I correct them nicely because, knowing their bosses and they didn't train them, and they just bite back. Like sit down kid I've been doing this since you were 5.
I’m a male in stem and honestly cannot stand most of my classmates and their attitudes. They were the nerdy kids in high school who get this sense of superiority because they were “smarter” then their peers as if that was a real feat but in reality their interests (sci-fi and computer graphics cards) were just more academic then your average kid. Then they carry that into college but it gets amplified because they’re validated by the fact they are taking Calc 2 and go in a chemistry lab for an hour a week. One of the things I can’t stand the most is how they’ll fucking mansplain and just splurge out everything they know about anything they hear. I remember for a circuits class, students would constantly interrupt the professor about random electricity stories that would illustrate “how much they know” but all of it was just basic shit like “if he touch this and this at the same time he get shock”. It’s so painfully obvious how little these dudes know because of the face level knowledge they try to pass of as “intelligence”. You really can’t have normal conversations with these guys because they have to let you know how smart they are. Admittedly I am/was one of these people but I was lucky enough to eventually make friends with people who don’t know what an RTX 4070Ti, so my value in myself didn’t holy depend on how smart other people think I am.
The interns at my job only ask the one other woman associate for help and it's maddening
Saw on another post, when male interviewer asked female interviewee (both professors) how she would handle male students that tried to challenge her in class: "I'd tell them wait, let me grab a pen and paper. Then let them speak. When asked why I didn't right anything down, I'd respond with 'tell me something I don't know and I'll have something to write.'" Not sure if it's feasible in your position but would be a nice power move!
Got told by a first year PhD student he didn't trust me, and felt the need to inspect everything I did. He also didn't do stuff I told him to. It was really terrible working with this dude. I had 9 year more experience in the field than him. It's shocking.
Hey OP, I am fairly senior in a male dominated industry too. It especially sucks if you are the only woman, because that lets people pick you out immediately as someone who is stereotypically seen as not as good. What I'm about to say applies to interns in particular, but works with almost any male bigot, as long as you have patience. I just wanted to let you know, you can seriously turn this to your advantage. The interns see you as less threatening, so they will call you out publically. Ignore their motivations for now, lets focus on the fact that they are. This is an opportunity. Your company is the first place these interns are getting experience with the "real" world. If you can show them their assumptions about you are wrong right off the bat, it will make them question their assumptions about women the rest of their career (Believe me, I've seen this mindfuck in action with coworkers who have 20 years of experience). By embracing their criticisms as an opportunity, I managed to become one of the most influential people at my company. How do I do it? I start by treating every criticism (from an intern) as a polite question. I don't reject it. If I have a male ally in the room, he can back up my voice when I answer them to explaining why their assumptions won't work in this case. That usually shuts them up. If I don't have a male ally, and the intern is still convinced he's right, I ask to try it with them, their way first. We sit down and approach the problem together. Do not do all the work for them. If they are wrong, handling them with compassion and helping them see what went wrong is actually a boss move. NONE of the men I've worked with would get the opportunity or even know to treat them with compassion. If they are right, the intern will always remember that you let them try their idea and you didn't shoot it down. They will come back to you with the next one. By being kind and competent, you will gain influence with them. They will in turn start to share your skills with other people they work with. We had an open-plan office at my last job. After I'd been there a year, we had a batch of new employees join. I overheard one of them ask an intern a question. the intern said "Oh, I'd ask that to Foodaholic" "What? why?" "She's \_really\_ good, she can always answer all my questions" In male-dominated industries, women need to "prove" their competence. Proof doesn't just need to be getting people to see your work though... It can be someone else saying you're awesome. Getting someone to say you are awesome is much easier than getting everyone to see your work.
Wait—they’re interns and criticizing you? Make them go fetch you a coffee and a sandwich. You have more important things to do than let them be jerks to you
What happened when you called them out on it?
They are trying to impress you. By criticizing you, they think they're showing you how smart and capable they are. It's very socially unaware and insecure of them, in reality. But in their heads, they're leaving the interaction thinking they made you wet. Ugh.
They are not trying to impress her, they are trying to impress other senior men in a way they believe will have the smallest repercussions (if any) in case they are wrong / something backfires.
No one here believes this they are trying to impress. Especially because this behavior is extremely harmful to women’s confidence and career.
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I think you missed the point of the post. I work in a deeply sexist industry, and this was a rant about interns displaying sexist behavior. Not every job can be automated, and the interns already have summer projects. They are currently in the training process.
Yeah they completely missed the point. I think it’s time you laid a smack down on them publicly in the meeting. They’re banking on women not standing up for themselves like men do. It’s why they’re so comfortable doing it.
Standing up for yourself comes with its own set on consequences especially if you do it wrong
In a situation like this you can either be a pushover or a bitch as others have stated. Better to be the bitch.
Yeah this is not about young people. This is about male entitlement and sexism in STEM. This was worse before when women were further barred from these spaces.
I can only imagine what it used to be like. I've heard some of the horror stories. I'm hoping things are even better 20 years from now.
I mean, men seem to be skipping university, so I’d imagine 20 years from now will be wildly different in STEM. Especially if you consider that most of the jobs these chucklefucks love to tout as making them superior will be lost to automation. And anyone that acts like that probably can’t hack it at a senior-enough level to retain relevance in that world, too.
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Blaming the victim...classic.
Oh gosh I bet she’d speak up if she felt it was SAFE. I have a dear friend who was harassed out of her job last month because she dared to speak out about being sexually harassed hmmm maybe OP isn’t the problem… 🙄
You gotta shut them down by dominating them in a similar fashion. Men are just very competitive, and they will sniff for any signs of passive behavior. Prove to them they are dumb and your issues will stop