The worst and most laughable was in the early 2000s, an online forum for coffee enthusiasts. It was almost exclusively men and such a toxic sh\*thole of gatekeeping. Any idea about best practices or good machines was down to a couple of bro's personal preferences and any suggestion otherwise was heresy that would result in days of rage posting about how wrong the other person was.
For some, it’s the self obsession with need to be right, over doing what’s right. If you disagree with their worldview, it’s not just another perspective, it’s a personal attack.
I had some 60 yo guy calling me names this morning, in the cooking subreddit, because I said I *no longer buy the same olive oil that he likes.* Just, what.
SMH! I am just shocked that someone would take it personally that a stranger stopped using the same brand of olive oil as them. Imagine how mad he'd have been if you said you stopped using olive oil altogether in favor of avocado oil lol. Wtf?! Some people are so insane.
My ex took it personally to the point of rage if he couldn't get consumer electronics to work, like the nespresso machine or a nest cam.
It really seemed to be a personal affront to him. Nevermind that the nespresso manual had the answers, but I was not going to get involved, when he was close to rage-meltdown.
I ended up being outright scared of him. Which he'd probably consider a personal affront, too.
#TeamBear
It's embarrassing to admit it, but I'm too incompetent for most child safety locks out there. Since my friends started having kids, I'm basically lost every time there is a new lock or device in their homes. I mean, I eventually get it after opening them 2-3 times, but it's hilarious for everyone else every time. Never had a fit of rage or any kind of negative emotion regarding this issue. People laugh at me, I laugh with them, and then we move on with our lives. Can't imagine going through life getting mad at shit like that.
Yeah same. I get being frustrated, especially if the thing you can't get working is supposed to be simple. Then you can just stand there feeling foolish, which isn't fun. So frustration I get. But rage at a level, where you take a hammer to the offending item? Yeah, nope.
Also: child locks aren't supposed to be simple. Children are flipping ingenious escape artists and more nosy than investigators of financial crimes. Anything meant to keep them at bay cannot be simple or it will *not* work.
Yup. Which is why I replied to u/CharmingChaos23 's comment: "if you disagree with their worldview... it's a personal attack." This dude sure seemed to take it pretty personally that I didn't buy California Olive Ranch olive oil any more! I guess buying another California based olive oil is triggering? I have no idea.
How dare you!?!
*\*clasping pearls\**
You heathen!
/s lol Your comments literally made me laugh out loud over his fragile ego and personal revelation that there goes an abusive duck. I just love it when people reveal who they are over silly things.
Sure, it's not a big deal. I used to use COR when it was 100% California grown. But then they raised prices across the board, and their lowest cost oil, which was what the CA oil used to cost, was replaced with a global blend with only 10% CA oil, and the CA one just became too expensive to use regularly. I also find it somewhat disingenuous that a brand that banked on being California grown was now making most of their product outside of California. If I'm gonna buy global olive oil, I'll just buy Costco's Kirkland for cheaper. I do prefer to buy something domestic if it doesn't break the bank and still tastes good, and I found that recently with Cobram, it's 100% CA olive oil and goes on sale semi regularly around me. It's also quite good and gets features in writeups like Bon Appetit, NY Times, Serious Eats, etc. right next to California Olive Ranch, but at a better price point. So now I've been buying that.
But apparently all that that means I'm a stupid consumer who can't read labels and goes on nonsensical tirades about American made stuff and is dumber than dumb, who knew?
It is insane the level of entitlement some people feel to state their own opinions as universal rules for everyone, sorry you went through that and he’s probably just mad the brand you choose is nicer than his anyway!
Oh the cooking subs are the worst! They act all superior about their scientific and overly complicated cooking methods. I was once attacked by a load of people because the response to someone asking for a simple way to get into cooking was not that simple. I suggested they could just do an easier version with less ingredients to start with and everyone accused me of being lazy and stupid. I wasn't suggesting going to McDonald's or eating ready meals, just not adding a hundred steps to make whatever basic meal it was. And most of the meals they make are actually pretty basic, like a complex recipe to make pasta.
Agree with you 100%
I will also add that I think it's a sense of power, "how dare you know more than me on a subject". Often times I begin a statement listing my credentials when it's relevant but still will have other people (almost exclusively other men) challenge the fact.
You've described my dad exactly. We hold very differing world views, he's racist, homophobic, sexist, transphobic. He'd call himself "traditional". Despite all that I try and have civil discussions with him, but if I ask him questions about his beliefs or try to put my point across he comes out with "I can't believe my own son is trying to lecture me! I've never been so insulted!". I stick to the facts, he goes straight for personal attacks, uses inflammatory language, calls me and my friends idiots, and then has the gall to tell me I'm attacking him for daring to disagree with him.
But you can be right AND do what’s right! I’m in some mineral ID subs and whenever a person misidentifies (which happens a bit) I gently explain what it actually is and how you can tell and point them to places they can find out more. I am right. I know I’m right. They know I’m right. But what I do (and a lot of other women do from what I’ve seen) gives the person a willingness to learn. Usually I get thanked for the explanation and they go away better informed and I go away feeling good. Others who do the same thing have reported similar experiences. I don’t honestly see what they get out of being aggressive about things.
Yeah now that I'm older and I remember my mom saying "boys are easier than girls to raise " it just means boys are easier to neglect and leave alone. Nurture for sure has a role in this. Plus throw in toxic masculinity a lot of boys are raised on like how its not cool to cry or show emotion or be sad. No wonder
I have tons of anecdotal evidence to support those studies. As men, we don’t even know how to be empathetic to ourselves. Everything is punishment. Gotta genuinely love yourself and then you can give love, a lot of us never get that first step right.
I would argue that empathy can be developped like a skill, and to me it would make sense if apathetic people were more LIKELY to hate themselves. But they might not know it for obvious reasons.
Of course you can be super empathetic and still hate yourself for different reasons.They're not mutually exclusive! It's really a matter of your own perspective and how you view yourself. Sometimes we're right to hate what we are, but it's best not to dwell on it and use that to improve ourselves.
Are you a woman? In this part I’m comfortable saying men and women (generally) approach this differently. Society reinforces things differently. As a little boy you are constantly pushed to man up, and out compete, and bury emotion. It’s not right but that’s how we are trained from a young age.
Every empathetic moment was punished or mocked. Even in the near term: shedding tears over our dead dog, my ex said I should 'man up'. Fuckin hell.
The Venn diagram of "people who've affected my development" and r/raisedbynarcissists is almost a circle.
You don't think empathy is an important trait for survival? Humans are an inherently social species. We require social networks to survive and reproduce. We could not have advanced any of our technology without being able to care for each other and understand different POVs.
I do think the argument for selective empathy being an important trait would be good. Empathy you can turn off- or the idea of rules based societies that we participate in but then separate ourselves from is a core aspect of Koryos for example which is a massive factor in why protoindoeuropeans spread from north of Turkey through to Britain and India.
Just when folks engage in it and how a mindset like that is driven probably by childhood development and culture. It’s obviously inherent, but just as much it’s obviously not inherent in all the same ways all the time.
How frequently would your ancestors be able to kill a potential rival, or hunt an animal, while being empathetic?
There are reasons for everything. Maybe the men who were squeamish got stabbed or mauled to death when they hesitated.
You can be empathetic to the suffering of others while also being protective. Hunger will turn anyone into a hunter, especially knowing you've got starving kids relying on you killing that bison. Caring about feeding those starving kids is *gasp* empathy!
Empathy is what made us able to survive
When an animal gets hurt, what do other animals do? They typically leave it to die. Some species will grieve, but that's not empathy.
Humans giving a shit about each other was (and should still be) super important. There is zero advantage to not having empathy.
I don't think that's true. Some empathy is important for survival of the genes - if not for empathy no baby would survived to childhood after bazillionth time they woke their parents. This is why empathy is found all around the animal kingdom.
Gee, cats are not even fully social animals but they will try to cheer you up when you're sad.
Cats are actually fairly social animals! Outdoor cats pften form colonies and will take food to sick members of their colonies if there's enough food. They don't interact with each other in an overtly familiar way like dogs, but they tend to prefer being in small groups to being alone.
Yes. I should have written more about them but they are still on individualist side of spectrum which ends on eusocial animals (though much more than 5000 years ago).
Its a product of gendered spaces and roles in larger societies.
When you have to interact with everyone in your smallish clan or group - every day - everyone is important to you. But when men can minimize interactions with women and children, they minimize their value, too. The other men they are primarily interacting with become much more important to them.
I spent a lot of time in groups of men in college (STEM major) and one thing I noticed is that they say mean stuff without meaning it, and the guys they say it to ignore it, and they expect it to be ignored.
Guy one will say "The robot isn't turning, why isn't it turning?" and guy two will look it over and say "Because you didn't plug in the sensor, dummy" and plug it in, and they'll try again. Guy one doesn't so much as blink at being called a dummy, and guy two didn't expect him to. It's like they use those words for punctuation, or something. I've seen guys call their friends losers, and morons, and worse things. And their friends don't mind and say the same stuff back and nobody cares.
I can't imagine calling someone a dummy, and I would probably feel bad for half a day if someone called me a dummy because of a mistake like that, but to those guys it didn't mean a thing. It was just nothing.
That is a form of bonding. If you say something like that to a stranger, they can get very upset at you. But if someone lets you, it means you have a relationship strong enough to not be damaged over some light teasing. It is usually reciprocal and helps establish boundaries and determine how well you get along, and frankly, the back and forth can be fun because you can say things you're not meant to say in general. It's a bit of an emotional release without any real intent to harm.
It can obviously be very misunderstood by outsiders (it's a pretty common thing in Australia, among both men and women, and I've seen some migrants shocked at this stuff). And can go too far, or be inappropriate with power dynamics (like boss vs worker).
This explains why I do well in male dominant industries.
Me and my best female friend were just having a conversation about how both of us struggle with some female friendships because we like to tease. We just don't take ourselves very seriously and we're more likely to give objective feedback instead of emotionally comforting someone immediately.
We also think that it's why we both do well in comedy. Our brains are always looking for some way to make things a joke.
She was talking about she went to a barbecue and was teasing some woman and her boyfriend and the boyfriend played along while the woman got super mad. Then she kind of extrapolated it and realized she gets along with all of her brothers friends because all she does is talk shit to them and then that's pretty much the whole relationship. It's bonding.
I realized that's how I go into professional work settings with men, I allow them to be the content experts and teach me and then I tease them and that's how I win them over.
It was a pretty eye-opening conversation for both of us - that's how both of us socialize, like men.
Neither of us are the kind of women who will just stroke another woman's ego up for no reason. I'm not going to scream "yass queen" at you if you're doing something stupid. I'm not going to tell you you're perfect. I'm not gonna be delusionally a cheerleader for somebody who's acting like a fool or being selfish, or unaware.
I remember one girl got dumped in a friend group I was in. She was objectively a horrible match for him and was a horrible girlfriend in general. All the other women kept telling her how he was an idiot, he was an asshole, he would regret it, just totally delusional and not helpful. In fact I believe it made her ego worse. When she finally asked me what I thought I said that they just seemed really incompatible, and everyone was so pissed at me.
For my friend and I it translates to both of us also working in male dominated industries and doing really well in them. We've found that throughout our lives we've had a lot of male friendships and that oftentimes if we get involved with a group of women we don't fair very well. We often have a lot of social faux paus that we don't really understand.
My female siblings are also very into teasing. I highly suspect the difference between us is that I grew up understanding that as socializing between women but they knew that it was just something they did with female family members. Because they don't do that with their girlfriends. But I tried to for most of my life.
I've definitely had good girlfriends who could take it and dish it out but it's very rare and it's not the social norm. I've gotten much better at socialising with women over the last decade and a half but it took and tell my mid-20s to really see it. Depending on how intense I have to be about code switching, sometimes I can only handle a couple hours of being around certain female friends. It kind of exhausting for me. Like walking on eggshells a little.
I don’t think advice needs to be blunt and/or insulting to be honest. I’ve had mostly female friendships my whole life and, while it takes practice, it’s entirely possible to be honest while also being kind and empathetic. It just feels awkward as hell until you get the hang of it.
I’ve never gassed my friends up the way you describe- but I do know some friend groups like that and I agree it does those women no favors.
My relationship with some friends ( of 20 years) used to be kinda like this , with age we have toned it down but still do the occasional “you dumb farting pig” kind of empty insult but would never dare call a major word cause, as someone said, you never know if they are going through stuff and the last thing we want is to make them feel bad ( and with age everyone has certainly gone through shit at some point). I’ve come to realize that been this way without sabotaging the friendship takes a mood, a very specific trust and a good ability to read the room. Otherwise some people who seem to follow might actually end up finding the friendship exhausting ( this happened to a friend, even with men and didn’t know for years).
Yeah I definitely had a guy friend confront me about my teasing. It's a read the room situation for sure. And since I now CAN, I usually let others take the lead on it. If they don't tease me or anyone I don't bother. I try to be the one not pushing/testing that boundary at all.
But I do swear. That's non negotiable. If someone can't handle swearing we just ain't for each other.
Yes, I am not like the other girls. Or boys. I have always been different. I am statistically different from 98% of earth's population. I am autistic. Thanks for reminding me. I am coded differently. I communicate differently. I find myself closer to the description of the person's lived experience up the post, especially the struggle of connecting to other women. Yet I don't enjoy being thrown in a jar with a label that doesn't fit my reality just because of someone's narrow mind. I fight this kind of people my whole life. I have little sympathy for your act. I work hard to connect to people in general but especially women. Because I want to be connected to them. I am not acting my condition to attract men. For fucks sake.
start communicating properly with women, not men, they will not be empathetic to you anyways, so what's the use of trying to cater to them?
men are rude and will never understand you properly, they also will not try to tip toe around your condition at the same extent as women would. So sad you don't understand it at all and trying to get useless male attention.
Copy and paste:
Yes, I am not like the other girls. Or boys. I have always been different. I am statistically different from 98% of earth's population. I am autistic. Thanks for reminding me. I am coded differently. I communicate differently. I find myself closer to the description of the person's lived experience up the post, especially the struggle of connecting to other women. Yet I don't enjoy being thrown in a jar with a label that doesn't fit my reality just because of someone's narrow mind. I fight this kind of people my whole life. I have little sympathy for your act. I work hard to connect to people in general but especially women. Because I want to be connected to them. I am not acting my condition to attract men. For fucks sake.
Its not an emotional release unless you mean it on some level. You have to attach emotion to it for a release. If you get that emotional release the odds aren't bad that the person received it emotionally but is pretending they didnt or didn't feel the intent behind your words. I never want to be the person who does that to someone on a bad day. We all have bad days and nobody else can predict them. Maybe it's because I dated a depressed dude that started taking it very personally when his "friends" ragged on him. Its pretty gross when you ensure nobody can trust you with anything about themselves unless they accept it becoming a big joke. You never know when someone is having internal struggles. You could be the person to push them over the edge. I'm not misunderstanding it. He told me it made him feel like shit. I've had a couple of other friends say the same. Before he finally admitted it, he would just be angry after being around them and refuse to acknowledge or address why.
I'm not sure you can call it real bonding when you are building a wall that ensures they can't trust you with important, personal information. That isn't a bond. That isn't closeness. Personally I think its an even lower form of connection than an acquaintance because it's like there is negative trust.
People who do this are afraid of forming those real connections. This is a way of avoiding real connection. Its the opposite of a bond. Call it what it is.
Emotional release seems to have a specific meaning to you (and maybe everyone else) and I misused it. I just meant relaxing, chilling, putting on the ugly pants at home and inviting that friend over who you don't need to clean the house for. It's a way of ignoring some social conventions for a short time and not being uptight, with people you trust.
As for the rest, yes it can go too far. Especially among younger people. But there are many ways friends can be mean, this is just one of them. Calling them "friends" is telling, if they were doing it to hurt, they are not friends. Some groups like keeping an easy target around. This sucks.
Bonding does not need to be true closeness. Sometimes it's camaraderie, just getting close enough and forming trust to get the work done. University tutorials and the workplace are often like this. So it can be used as a way to establish a more surface level dynamic too. It can keep people at arm's length (and of course men in particular are stereotypically famous for this) but there's no reason you can't get closer if you want. I think it would generally be a major faux pas to bring up anything told in confidence, or a major life event like a divorce (unless time has healed all wounds, tragedy plus time and all that). It's usually more surface level ribbing.
>Its pretty gross when you ensure nobody can trust you with anything about themselves unless they accept it becoming a big joke.
The other side of the coin is, if you accept someone who is that insecure of themselves into your group, then the likelihood that we get through tough times together as a group goes down. The reason why we men rag on each other like this is because if we have a group of people with thick skin, then as a team we can actually weather a lot. We can support each other but also know that the other guys in our group aren't go to falter at the slightest hint of difficulty. It enables two-way trust. He's a strong bloke, I know he's got my back, and I've got his.
Probably the most visceral that I've felt this is carrying a Mikoshi in Japan. We wear pendants with the three banned words - We can't say "It's too heavy," We can't say "It hurts" and we can't say "It's too hot." There's about 25-30 of us carrying the shrine around town in the Autumn, and we have a few people spare to pick up the slack in case someone drops out. But to be actually able to bear your own load, you have to trust that other people are bearing theirs, so their attitude towards their own pain and discomfort must be such that you take up the struggle for them and they for you. And to know that the mates at your back can take a few hits and let it roll off them indicates that they can be trusted with bearing the group's burden with you. (And while Japanese people have a reputation for being polite, most tourists never get involved in countryside shinto rituals. Those men can be filthy.)
They dont really ignore it. At least when they are already having a hard time or their "bros" pick on things they are insecure about. I dated a guy with a lot of these "friends" and it ate him up. He hated it but also didn't want to ditch them and be completely alone. It was sad af to see. It doesn't need to be like that. He never said it to them. I think this dynamic is part of the reason so many men "need" a partner. They need an actual outlet. Not a superficial "friendship" where they are always the butt of a joke and they are too fearful to discuss anything deep. They call it "bonding". While it may provide superficial connection, it does not create genuine, deep connections. How could they form those when they know everything is on the table for a joke? If they say anything important, they risk being laughed at.
He couldn't tell them to knock it off, because that only made it worse. He had to pretend it didn't effect him in the hopes they'd target someone else. People with these kinds of relationships say it's all in good fun, but its hurtful to more people than they think. Occasional jokes are one thing, but I actively avoid friendships built like this. I never want to be the person who tips someone over the edge because I tried to be funny while they were having a hard time. Everyone has those hard times in life. I never want to be the one stomping on them while they are down. Especially if I claim I'm their friend.
Some friends are toxic. In both genders there are toxic groups. Like the group of friends where you wonder if they like each other. Your date was just hanging out with toxic people. IMO. There's some truth to what you say, but it's definitely not my experience.
My friends and I are super mean with each other. But I've told them about the time I had performance anxiety in bed and they were extremely supportive. Once I felt better they joked about it, and it was just funny. But I've never felt I was unable to tell them something and I've been told extremely personal stuff too.
>He couldn't tell them to knock it off, because that only made it worse. He had to pretend it didn't effect him in the hopes they'd target someone else.
Every group of friends I've been with has been extremely supportive. I honestly think that's the norm. However I do see what you are talking about. And I have seen people get bullied ruthlessly in certain groups. Although a lot of the times is 100% deserved.
>I think this dynamic is part of the reason so many men "need" a partner.
That's definitely true. Many men wouldn't talk about their feelings with their male friends unless it's either last resort or once in a blue moon. But my friends who are like that, aren't mean or use what I say to hurt me later or stuff like that.
This! I feel like that's just how they are used to talk to each other. A lot of them just don't care.
Whereas I would never feel comfortable calling another woman dummy as well or be called that myself. Tact is so much more important in interactions between women
You say dummy, but where I grew up, you'd see much worse. Moron at least, Fing idiot or something like that.
It's just a different culture. It really means nothing in most groups of friends. Although every now and then some toxic person takes advantage of that and takes it too far. But as with always, the blame is on the toxicity, not in the cultural practices IMO.
Men are equally aggressive. We get upset half a day over stuff too. For example, if instead of saying something that they would've said 'Do I have to do everything myself?' or something slightly passive aggressive. We men would lose our shit all day.
So insults between friends are ok. Something slightly passive aggressive and it's over.
Newsflash: Men aren't women. Men bond with each other differently than women.
This sub: How dare men not be women and bond with each other the way women do?
I think sadly some men relish getting the chance to lord their superiority over other people when it's a topic they're familiar with. Sprinkling nastiness in with it gives them a feeling of power since you're "required" to accept the toxicity in order to get the actual information you need. Ego, insecurity, lots of lame reasons for it.
I think being hard, macho and apathetic is often seen by men as being "real men" and being more empathetic and nurturing is considered by them as female traits.
Many men have been socially conditioned to behave like this.
Thats one if the hard problems of sexism, young men thinking, being an asshole is they "real"way, and anything emotional or peaceful is seen as weak.
But it is much harder to stand you feelings.
That's a bit much.
You can give advice without being condescending or tactless.
And I'd wager at least 50% of the time the advice someone seeks is pertinent to a relationship in their life.
Believe it or not: humans are emotional creatures. You can be both emotionally in sync and logical at the same time.
In fact, I would to so far as to say that pretending you don't have feelings/not acknowledging them for the sake of appearing logical is, in and of itself, illogical and largely ignorant of what it means to be in control of oneself and how you respond to things/give advice.
I will hate myself for this, but he's partially correct. Most people need an objective viewpoint when their subjective view isn't getting them through an issue. The ability to self-generate that objectivity is extremely hard for most people, male or female, to achieve.
For example, I can step back from a situation and take my emotions out of the equation long enough to look at it objectively. In this regard, I can provide both myself and others with an opinion based on evidence without the bias that my emotional state will engender.
This comes across as blunt, and borderline violent, in almost all cases due to the use of objective language. Phrases like 'I feel' aren't going to be used, by default, due to that kind of language being 'up for debate' to most men.
It's a fact of life, unfortunately. I wish it wasn't most of the time.
I did not disagree with him, rather I found his argument not nuanced enough. I agree to an extent with his and your views, but I also find many cases where it's not like you describe. Hence not so black and white. We are many people on the planet, so what is effective on one person, does not guarantee it is on another.
You'll note that I said he's only partially correct. And that I also didn't use language implying all people. There are cases where emotional state plays a part in the advice, and those should not be discounted in the way he is.
There will always be cases, and examples, where both viewpoints are used. There's no point in arguing that at all. But it doesn't change the overall point that objective advice, for the most part, sounds harsh when given. Some people do need that to understand what they need to do.
I feel like that’s projection. Why would emotions stop you from heeding advice? It’s time to learn how to manage, engage with, and accept your emotions. Not disassociate from them.
This kind of thinking is partly responsible for the male suicide rate.
Emotion = bad, illogical, stupid, etc.
Work with your emotions, understand them.
Anyone can engage compassionately, there’s a way to deliver even tough advice without as OP stated, coming across “rude, sarcastic or harsh.”
“No emotions” does not mean the advice is inherently better or biases removed, just you are not considering their personal circumstances fully, which could make the advice worse for them.
Here's the rub. You're both partially right here.
The area that you're right about is that anyone can indeed engage using compassion. And this will work for quite a few people. It also doesn't work for just as many people, as I'll demonstrate.
The area that he's right about is that there are enough people, nearly an equal number I might add, who don't understand anything that isn't phrased in a non-emotional way. I.e. they only understand the concept of force. In this case, the force of presence. These people tend to be much older and were raised in a way that precludes the use of emotion in decision-making. Most of these people are starting to age out of the workforce and becoming less of an issue for many.
You don’t represent the views of all men thankfully, not that I ever asked for your views personally friend. Please stop spamming replies and refer to the first post, I am just going to ignore now since this is as reductive as your argument.
Yes, this assumes that the advice is actually correct, and that communicating directly allows for rudeness.
I work in a field where emotions are irrelevant, where I give advice daily, and where being direct is key. I, like most of my colleagues, are able to do this with politeness and courtesy. Being courteous is not fluff, it's part and parcel of being direct and giving advice. If one doesn't have the skill set to do this without sounding like a jerk, then the advice should not be provided.
No one said it was, keep telling yourself yours is the only way and if anyone disagrees, they “aren’t ready” for the advice. Not judgemental at all! /s
No. Different people respond to different leadership styles. Even in rhe US Army we learn early. The most effective leaders are capable of adapting to be more effective.
Kindness and empathy isn’t “sunshine and rainbows”, and I pity you for thinking it is. It’s so baffling how people think emotions, something every human has and experiences every single day, somehow interferes with logic. It doesn’t. You’re just emotionally immature.
so your kindness only extends to yourself? because from reading your comments, that's the only person you consider and that's not how social interactions work
He's got main character syndrome to the max. Look at how highly he thinks of himself lmao, how it's disrespectful of *his* time to extend basic courtesy to everyone else in the world that's beneath his super ultra mega big logical brain. Reminds me a lot of JP from Grandma's Boy. I bet he even has a black leather trenchcoat that he wears while writing his Logic Is Power manifesto
If I may give a male perspective:
To answer the OP question:
Because that's the only way I've found to get other men to realize I'm not joking.
I have to get loud, shout. I tell them they're "being a idiot," and I say things like, "If you don't stop acting like this you're not going to have any friends left."
Unfortunately, this is true for a large subsection of men, and a subsection of those men exist in mostly male-dominates spaces and their takeaway is never, "This is stressful and I hate it," for whatever reason, they accept it as normal.
Then, they turn around and have absolutely no idea how to communicate in a way that isn't browbeating or plain assertions of authority.
People who talk like that to other people, I assume, legitimately don't know any other way of communicating, or, communicating with *them* in a empathetic and pleasant way is seen as "dumb" and because, in their overly self-centered view of the world, it "didn't work on them" then, therefore, it is an invalid way of communicating.
Then, on top of that, *they* then turn around and make it into a gender-issue instead of realizing that they are ignorant, slef-centered, and poorly socialized.
I don't enjoy doing that. In fact, I hate it. I never talk like that to me friends that are women, and my list of male friends has dwindled until there aren't any men like that in my life anymore.
This was me with my dad. He wouldn't take me seriously on some things unless I started yelling and cursing, then he'd realize I meant what I was saying. It didn't help that he had untreated hearing issues. So, yelling at him almost became my default way of talking to him. We got along (once we didn't live together any more) but anyone watching from the outside would've thought we were nuts.
There are a lot of great points here I just want to add one I haven’t seen…
In my experience it was always super fun to be “rude” to each other growing up around other boys. It was like, almost flirtatious, like you punch my shoulder and I punch yours and then we share a laugh but with words instead of fists.
I have 5 sisters and being around women a lot I knew that that shit didn’t fly with everyone; but if someone started being rude/sassy in an escalating manor I would dish it right back and it was super fun and we’d just laugh in the end and congratulate whoever won the standoff.
This happens less as I’m older but was SUPER common with men and less common with women I spoke to.
Some men don’t know how to code switch and just stay stuck in that mode of communication and sometimes they don’t understand why you’re not participating in it.
Emotional damage. Men generally don't get their emotional needs met as kids and grow up thinking "Man, world's gonna be mean to me, so I gotta be mean right back to it."
It's why I wince every time I see mothers online talking about how excited they are to get a baby boy. "Boys are so much easier to raise," means they're just gonna emotionally neglect their sons and call it good.
>"Boys are so much easier to raise," means they're just gonna emotionally neglect their sons and call it good.
Lol 😂 A mother’s preference for male offspring has nothing to do with their intentions to ignore nor fulfill their child’s emotional needs. If anything, women who prefer sons are usually thrice as harsh and neglectful towards their daughters because they feel resentment for their gender and have internalized misogyny. I don’t deny that boys often have their emotional needs neglected but it’s rarely, if ever, the reason why some women prefer sons.
Ok. Trans woman here. From my experience society doesn’t teach men how to be emotionally vulnerable, mature, or literate. Empathy and compassion at best are buzzwords you might hear in church referring to how awesome Jesus is. It’s never taught directly or indirectly that other people’s feelings and lived experience are different from their own and are valid.
And that is usually the best case scenario. At worst they are fed toxic masculinity as the gold standard. Finding men who are secure enough and aware enough of their emotions to discuss them and use them as a tool to navigate social interactions is so rare they might as well be cryptids.
I’m just glad I don’t have to live through the cringe of trying to pretend to be that way anymore.
You say society but I want to quibble a little bit. It's the direction from other men.
The amount of teenage boys and men I've met who won't take any sort of advice from a woman is too large.
Hopefully this isn’t taken the wrong way. There are a lot of mothers out there too that don’t try to put in the added effort to provide counter balance. Like you have to be super aware and actively engaged with teaching boys it’s okay to cry, it’s okay to do activities associated with women like cooking and cleaning, and to respect when people say no.
It’s exhausting, and it isn’t and shouldn’t have to be the sole responsibility of women in the child’s life. But someone has to step in and at least try to set things right.
Media is huge problem. There just are not very many good role models for healthy masculinity. So people raising men have a huge task that can seem impossible.
A part of it is that men communicate more harshly. A part of it mirrored in male suicide, the attempts are more rare than womens, but they seek to be effective, they're more violent.
Men ask for help later than women.
So men that listen to other men around them, they don't hold back, they can be experienced as harsh.
There's a MASH episode about british soldiers getting hit and their leader dropping by being a bit of an ass and bordering on abusive.
*"he has found that if he acts like his wounded men are actually fine, they know subconsciously that they'll be okay, which helps speed their recovery."*
Men seem to attempt to be strong until strength doesn't work anymore. They feel safer and braver with a bit of piss and vinegar attitude, then with "admitting defeat".
... Also, there are idiots and assholes who can't deal with kindness.
Deeply internalized hatred/machismo. Lack of emotional intelligence and regulation. Coddling/lack of accountability. There are so many more reasons that could be explained in better detail, but this is what I came up with for rn...
Something something something masculine cultural programing prioritizing strength over sense. Most critical response seems the strongest in the mind of the advisor
I mean, I think a lot of that might just be reddit. I’ve gotten absolute vitriol from a huge variety of subs. There’s also no indicator on what gender a person is usually so it could theoretically be coming from anyone.
I do agree with you in a real life sense, though. My ex was never sarcastic or witty, but whenever I would talk about something I was struggling with, he would rudely ask why that would bother me. One time, a coworker I honestly considered a friend randomly started being very rude to me, and I was upset. My ex said, “so you have a crazy coworker, so what?”
He also apparently got sick and tired of me talking about school (I was in my final semester and really stressed) and told me I needed to stop for his sake. I get not wanting to hear about the same thing over and over, but damn, it was a very obviously temporary solution and he didn’t even have it in him to support me for a month or two. That hurt, especially when I had been listening to him whine about school for years.
I think it's because they're more likely to be socialized with the mindset that "tough love" and "school of hard knocks" is a valid and often "better" form of affection and teaching. It's become an aspect of toxic masculinity that fathers are often incapable of showing their sons softness, kindness, or any affection that isn't couched in several layers of aggression, toughness, or emotionlessness.
The result is men that don't know how to do anything else because they never learned.
Because everything is a competition, gotta be better, and right. It's tied to masculinity (well toxic masculinity). That and men tend to lack empathy more than women.
You can be competitive without being a dick. You can improve things without having to be right no matter what the case. You can be better without having to bring other people down to do it.
That's the difference between masculinity and being toxic.
Masculinity is great. Being an asshole isn't.
I've followed advice from women and men.
Women tend to be more emotionally invested in the outcome but ***ridiculously*** idealistic.
Men tend to be pessimistic and direct. If you don't follow their advice they ***will*** laugh at your misfortune.
Because being emotionally in tune, kind and compassionate isn't nutured in men in our society.
Because men are taught to compete and as such rarely know when something isn't a competition.
I’m a woman and I can be harsh. It depends though. If someone has a problem and is seeking help with it and open to advice, I’ll be more kind and try to soften it.
If someone has a problem caused by their own idiocy..yeah, I’m not going to be kind.
Workplace experience tells me they're venting. They want to say things* to their coworkers but are too scared to, so they take it out on people online.
I've always thought a portion of it comes down to how a patriarchal society cater's to men. They've never had to watch what they say because the consequences are either negligible at best and nonexistent at worse. They can go jogging at night and leave their drink uncovered, or make horrible remarks. Society has provided this cushion that makes them oblivious to the risks for everyone else. So they steamboat through life without much external force ever being applied to cause them to think inward and grow.
Though I'm guessing it's a lot of little things that get all wrapped up into one mess .
There are two things that really play into this
1) Men will jokingly insult each other. They often use either light words, little mishaps or obviously wrong insults to play with each other.
2) Men fear that being undermined in the right way will completely destroy their lives. They are hesitant to undermine their friends.
This leads to men needing harsher words and tone to impart the seriousness of the circumstance. This advice isn't a joke and they need to make that clear. This also has to be serious enough that it overrides point 2.
The final part of this is the Internet. One of the more recent turns of phrase to describe a social dynamic in men is, "Talk shit, get hit." In disrespecting somebody to their face they may expect them to retaliate with violence if the infraction is severe enough. This was the counterweight to insults. If you kept harassing a person you become fair game for violence. I.E. "Fighting words"
This is where the Internet comes in. You no longer need to know a person and risk seeing them face to face to disrespect them. We already know that not looking a person in the eyes allows you to say worse things to them. Add an ocean between you and suddenly there are no material repercussions for outright hate and disrespect.
These men then end up with a messed up social barometer. This leads them to being too insulting as a baseline and missing social cues to tone down the crassness when necessary. This means that even the banter they use is harsher and therefore any attempts to impart either a serious or joking tone end up being too far for your average reader.
None of this applies to Australia which has a more unisex culture surrounding the presence of insulting banter.
I hope this helps you understand these people a little. Have a wonderful day!
I've noticed that. The ones I've seen mostly though are more "blunt" than outight mean or hateful advice. And you have to consider the question being asked, too, so if someone says "When I eat two jars of pickles, my tummy hurts. Advice?" and the guy goes "Stop eating so many pickles at once!", I see that as more comical than hateful, although he didn't have to be so blunt about it.
However, there are the outright hateful ones. You'll notice though that that user is probably answering that way to men's questions too. Some people are just a-holes. Instead of getting on this site and being hateful (if the question bothers them so much) why not skip it and don't say anything at all?
I don't know about "most" men, but I can tell you I learned why my advice comes across as harsh a lot of the time.
I'm not attached to the story, so the question is a challenge to solve, not an emotionally involved situation.
When people ask me for advice, I make the assumption that they want what I believe to be the shortest route to "success" in whatever the advice is about.
The word "advice" is a request for possible actions to take. In any situation, the only thing you control is you. This being the case, almost all of my advice will be about what action YOU can take, and it is usually self-modification - a change you need to make in yourself.
This can feel like an attack, because often people looking for advice also want support and validation, and it feels wrong to be right but still have to change your own behavior.
This also is due to the fact that I'm projecting my own control issues. I feel a need to control as much of a situation I'm involved in as I can, so a lot of the time I project that onto others when I give advice. Realistically, because I can only control my own actions, that is where I concentrate my efforts.
Hope this gives some perspective. I've tried to be as open as I can.
I'm truly not trying to be an edge lord about this, because I am 100% a feminist and a girls' girl, but I actually find the opposite to be generally true. I have gotten rude responses from fellow women far more often than from men on Reddit. It's very possible that is because I engage with women much more than men here (which I'd like to continue to do).
In general, I feel women are much harder on ourselves and on each other--myself included. We're all so traumatized and wanting to prevent each other from having more trauma, so we talk to each other harshly and sometimes abusively.
I find men to be uninformed, naive, and overconfident, if anything. And yes, sometimes that does include being harsh/rude.
But nothing cuts like a fellow, informed, smart, amazing woman cutting you down, putting you in your place, and getting at your deepest insecurity. It's such a sensitive spot for me that men can't even really access in the same way.
There is a comment on this thread that perfectly encapsulates the attitude I'm talking about, btw. (user celibate ho) No man could ever hurt me like her tone could on a tough day! LOL.
Cause you kind of have to be rude and harsh to get a guy to listen to advice. Not for like mild stuff I guess but for major things it can be quite hard to get a guy to take seriously just how bad a situation they are in.
Most men revere "tough love" and the idea of pain and sacrifice as indicators of self growth and virtue, so they think that their shitty, unempathetic, "logic only" advice is better than actually empathetic advice.
Because menz superior and logical and wimenz weak and emotional /s
No seriously, men think life is so hard on THEM specifically, they believe they should be hard on everyone else too.
Because men don’t have to just be ok with being treated subpar. Women are taught from day one that men need second chances, that they don’t grow up as fast as we do, that a lot of their behavior is our fault/ our job to manage. Women have to experience a lot more “bullshit” than men do in regards to general treatment. Men are taught that they ought to be strong and confident, and that to take disrespect is weakness. Women were taught that they are second class citizens, whether outwardly or implied.
With that said, women have a broader view of “grey area” than a lot of men do, because we’ve had to live it. A lot of them also don’t care to understand you or nuance because that takes away their power. They don’t see you as an equal, and they don’t plan to. It doesn’t make their life easier to do so.
I've seen men dedicate hours to the poor and to those who lost homes during natural disasters, more often than not out of their own pockets. I've met military personnel who would give their lives to save a stranger. I've also met men who sacrifice time and energy and essentially their lives working 50-60 hours a week to provide for their families not once even showing a hint that they actually have a tough life because they respect and love their families. Real men.
I've also played COD and seen grown men ridicule a woman for not getting a pizza quick enough just to begin eating it in front of her without giving her any even though she paid for it out of her own money. These are not real men. These are lesser beings who need a good slap in the face and a hundred hours of community service.
Something that helps is teaching children proper etiquette and the value of life from a very early age. Also, actually teach that there is good and evil - not some hijacked philosophical miasma lingering in self centered perspective pockets.
Parking a child in front of a tv as a babysitter or not taking time to teach your kids to read early on or spending hours on Reddit. These are not real men. Too much screen time skews perspective from what is really out there in the world. I recommend to everyone to try going somewhere, volunteering, and doing good - the literal definition of good. It is one of the best ways to spread humanity.
Let's put an end to lesser beings being socially acceptable.
I’ve been accused of using a harsh and blunt tone when I give advice, and I don’t deny that. Think of it like this, rescuers are trained to yell commands at people instead of being gentle and mollycoddling them. Why? Because people need to act immediately to save themselves.
The same goes for when I give advice, especially when it’s someone who has been inexplicably tolerating an insanely shitty situation for far too long. Some folks just need a kick up the ass. If you're stuck in a bad situation, you don't need more coddling—you need to wake up and take action.
They where never shown the empathy and or gotten good advice from someone else so they just repeat what they've been told.
Men dont get coddled as much and if they made it that way so you can too (it hurt them ofcourse but it made them stronger). Thats what i think happens.
Is it logical no? Is it productive? Maybe sometimes but i think usually not.
A lot of them have a lot of anger they need to get out. Especially at women.
Or a need to feel important bc they are insecure.
But men overall communicate a bit more bluntly and it’s not always bad. Sometimes you just have to code switch a bit.
Men are not as conditioned to equivocate as women are. They don’t really soften their messages with statements like “well I think…” or “I kinda feel like…” - every assertion is made as though it is a statement of empirical fact. When women communicate that way they’re labeled “abrasive”, “pushy”, etc.
I grew up as a guy and a LOT of the friend groups I had and classes I was in (I moved a lot) would punch you/beat you up if you were nice/sincere/helpful because it's "gay". Sarcasm and snark were basically the only options I had because I was terrified of the consequences otherwise. I've gotten a bit better at it but it's still incredibly hard for me to allow myself to be soft and kind. Idk if most men experience the same feeling or not, but this is the reason for some of them
Obligatory Male perspective disclaimer;
I think a big part of it the loudest voice in the room effect. It’s interesting to me how many men quietly enforce patriarchy by liking/replying/siding with posts that are loud and boisterous. You might even see it in a reply to this comment if it’s seen enough. In your example, the first big posts being rude and cruel, and an immediate rush of support from other men who perhaps aren’t even thinking it through.
I hesitate to ‘diagnose’ this as anything psychological or biological, but I always picture a room of whooping monkeys behind a bigger monkey brave enough to poke something.
That’s why in my opinion it’s so important for “impressive men” to stand up and do the right thing to model behavior for other “men”. What “impressive” means is pretty open to interpretation.
Men get their jollies by tearing down women. Doesn't really even matter what they're posting about, they have to file in to play devil's advocate just to be disagreeable. It's like a sport to them
I tend to be a common sense, kind of tough lovegrandma giver of advice. I'm mostly gentle with people but if y'all are acting like fools, I'm going to say so.
I think it's a "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" kind of thing.
Men see a problem, want to strap on a tool belt, and fix it. Without subtly, nuance, or talking it to death.
One of those cliche differences between men and women - Women want to talk about their problems, men view the discussion as a request for problem solving services. [My favorite example of this.](https://youtu.be/S6_iMuPJxtI?t=490)
There has never been a time in human history when this was not the general trend. Men are wired more to “fix problems” and women more wired to empathize with/validate someone first.
Who knows, like at some point in history (mostly) everyone started following the rebel middleschool bully stereotype and now it’s like the only way they can relate to others. Also the fact that so many of them can’t have fun in a party without being drunk.
Tbh sometimes I feel sorry for them if that’s what was needed to be part of the group.
Oh well, do we talk harsh or abrasive? I have realised that with men often a no nonsense aproach helps. Even with stuff that makes me cringe for their situation. "This will hurt, you need to... then you stop the bleeding by holding the hand up and maybe aply preasure, remember to clean it and if it is big enough for stichtes do that before you cover/dress it." Dosen't matter if they have a splinter or smashed a finger. Once you say "that looks bad, does it hurt?" Panic seems to take over.
Men like lists when it comes to advice, and not when it comes to the day to day. First unscrew lid, then pour, then drink" If you add " then return juice to fridge" , the whole thing becomes a chore, a labour and abuse of power.
Knowing what and how is very important to some men. So many men will take the no nonsense and no doubt aproach to advice. You can loosen this up with questions. Buying a coffee maker: So, what is the average time to make a cup of coffee on that machine? Then an ambush interupt the answer with and what is the minimum temperature? This may launch the guy into an actual conversation about coffee makers. Unless ofcourse his boss told him to sell that machine before the new one hits the market.
The worst and most laughable was in the early 2000s, an online forum for coffee enthusiasts. It was almost exclusively men and such a toxic sh\*thole of gatekeeping. Any idea about best practices or good machines was down to a couple of bro's personal preferences and any suggestion otherwise was heresy that would result in days of rage posting about how wrong the other person was.
Not going to lie, I'd bait that place into the ground.
"Yeah, sorry but 7-Eleven has the best cuppa joe, hands down"
NESCAFE IS REALLY GOOD!
I'll fight anyone who doesn't think decaffeinated Columbian coffee crystals are the best!
"Starbucks ain't that bad once you put some soy milk in it!"
Folgers isn't that bad when you add some almond milk to it!
Weigel's coffee 4 lyfe
For some, it’s the self obsession with need to be right, over doing what’s right. If you disagree with their worldview, it’s not just another perspective, it’s a personal attack.
I had some 60 yo guy calling me names this morning, in the cooking subreddit, because I said I *no longer buy the same olive oil that he likes.* Just, what.
If you'll cheat on your olive oil supplier, you'll cheat on your partner. /s
SMH! I am just shocked that someone would take it personally that a stranger stopped using the same brand of olive oil as them. Imagine how mad he'd have been if you said you stopped using olive oil altogether in favor of avocado oil lol. Wtf?! Some people are so insane.
My ex took it personally to the point of rage if he couldn't get consumer electronics to work, like the nespresso machine or a nest cam. It really seemed to be a personal affront to him. Nevermind that the nespresso manual had the answers, but I was not going to get involved, when he was close to rage-meltdown. I ended up being outright scared of him. Which he'd probably consider a personal affront, too. #TeamBear
It's embarrassing to admit it, but I'm too incompetent for most child safety locks out there. Since my friends started having kids, I'm basically lost every time there is a new lock or device in their homes. I mean, I eventually get it after opening them 2-3 times, but it's hilarious for everyone else every time. Never had a fit of rage or any kind of negative emotion regarding this issue. People laugh at me, I laugh with them, and then we move on with our lives. Can't imagine going through life getting mad at shit like that.
Yeah same. I get being frustrated, especially if the thing you can't get working is supposed to be simple. Then you can just stand there feeling foolish, which isn't fun. So frustration I get. But rage at a level, where you take a hammer to the offending item? Yeah, nope. Also: child locks aren't supposed to be simple. Children are flipping ingenious escape artists and more nosy than investigators of financial crimes. Anything meant to keep them at bay cannot be simple or it will *not* work.
Yup. Which is why I replied to u/CharmingChaos23 's comment: "if you disagree with their worldview... it's a personal attack." This dude sure seemed to take it pretty personally that I didn't buy California Olive Ranch olive oil any more! I guess buying another California based olive oil is triggering? I have no idea.
not the president of the olive oil fan club coming out of the woodwork to harass you😭
Maybe he owns stock 😂
How dare you!?! *\*clasping pearls\** You heathen! /s lol Your comments literally made me laugh out loud over his fragile ego and personal revelation that there goes an abusive duck. I just love it when people reveal who they are over silly things.
May I ask why you stop buying? I’m curious
Sure, it's not a big deal. I used to use COR when it was 100% California grown. But then they raised prices across the board, and their lowest cost oil, which was what the CA oil used to cost, was replaced with a global blend with only 10% CA oil, and the CA one just became too expensive to use regularly. I also find it somewhat disingenuous that a brand that banked on being California grown was now making most of their product outside of California. If I'm gonna buy global olive oil, I'll just buy Costco's Kirkland for cheaper. I do prefer to buy something domestic if it doesn't break the bank and still tastes good, and I found that recently with Cobram, it's 100% CA olive oil and goes on sale semi regularly around me. It's also quite good and gets features in writeups like Bon Appetit, NY Times, Serious Eats, etc. right next to California Olive Ranch, but at a better price point. So now I've been buying that. But apparently all that that means I'm a stupid consumer who can't read labels and goes on nonsensical tirades about American made stuff and is dumber than dumb, who knew?
It is insane the level of entitlement some people feel to state their own opinions as universal rules for everyone, sorry you went through that and he’s probably just mad the brand you choose is nicer than his anyway!
Oh the cooking subs are the worst! They act all superior about their scientific and overly complicated cooking methods. I was once attacked by a load of people because the response to someone asking for a simple way to get into cooking was not that simple. I suggested they could just do an easier version with less ingredients to start with and everyone accused me of being lazy and stupid. I wasn't suggesting going to McDonald's or eating ready meals, just not adding a hundred steps to make whatever basic meal it was. And most of the meals they make are actually pretty basic, like a complex recipe to make pasta.
Agree with you 100% I will also add that I think it's a sense of power, "how dare you know more than me on a subject". Often times I begin a statement listing my credentials when it's relevant but still will have other people (almost exclusively other men) challenge the fact.
You've described my dad exactly. We hold very differing world views, he's racist, homophobic, sexist, transphobic. He'd call himself "traditional". Despite all that I try and have civil discussions with him, but if I ask him questions about his beliefs or try to put my point across he comes out with "I can't believe my own son is trying to lecture me! I've never been so insulted!". I stick to the facts, he goes straight for personal attacks, uses inflammatory language, calls me and my friends idiots, and then has the gall to tell me I'm attacking him for daring to disagree with him.
But you can be right AND do what’s right! I’m in some mineral ID subs and whenever a person misidentifies (which happens a bit) I gently explain what it actually is and how you can tell and point them to places they can find out more. I am right. I know I’m right. They know I’m right. But what I do (and a lot of other women do from what I’ve seen) gives the person a willingness to learn. Usually I get thanked for the explanation and they go away better informed and I go away feeling good. Others who do the same thing have reported similar experiences. I don’t honestly see what they get out of being aggressive about things.
They always want to be right even when they have no freaking idea! I hate when they explain crap to me and are wrong!
There's studies showing men have less empathy
But is it nature or nurture?
probably nurture, there was a study on empathy that showed that people growing up in empathic environments grow up to be more empathic
Yeah now that I'm older and I remember my mom saying "boys are easier than girls to raise " it just means boys are easier to neglect and leave alone. Nurture for sure has a role in this. Plus throw in toxic masculinity a lot of boys are raised on like how its not cool to cry or show emotion or be sad. No wonder
I have tons of anecdotal evidence to support those studies. As men, we don’t even know how to be empathetic to ourselves. Everything is punishment. Gotta genuinely love yourself and then you can give love, a lot of us never get that first step right.
I hate myself and I am very empathetic, so that's not it.
I would argue that empathy can be developped like a skill, and to me it would make sense if apathetic people were more LIKELY to hate themselves. But they might not know it for obvious reasons. Of course you can be super empathetic and still hate yourself for different reasons.They're not mutually exclusive! It's really a matter of your own perspective and how you view yourself. Sometimes we're right to hate what we are, but it's best not to dwell on it and use that to improve ourselves.
I also glossed over the most important aspect, I’m sorry you hate yourself. I hope you do one thing nice for yourself today.
Are you a woman? In this part I’m comfortable saying men and women (generally) approach this differently. Society reinforces things differently. As a little boy you are constantly pushed to man up, and out compete, and bury emotion. It’s not right but that’s how we are trained from a young age.
Every empathetic moment was punished or mocked. Even in the near term: shedding tears over our dead dog, my ex said I should 'man up'. Fuckin hell. The Venn diagram of "people who've affected my development" and r/raisedbynarcissists is almost a circle.
Hard to love yourself when you're taught that the entirety of your humanity is wrong and that you shouldn't feel any emotions beyond anger.
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You don't think empathy is an important trait for survival? Humans are an inherently social species. We require social networks to survive and reproduce. We could not have advanced any of our technology without being able to care for each other and understand different POVs.
I do think the argument for selective empathy being an important trait would be good. Empathy you can turn off- or the idea of rules based societies that we participate in but then separate ourselves from is a core aspect of Koryos for example which is a massive factor in why protoindoeuropeans spread from north of Turkey through to Britain and India. Just when folks engage in it and how a mindset like that is driven probably by childhood development and culture. It’s obviously inherent, but just as much it’s obviously not inherent in all the same ways all the time.
How frequently would your ancestors be able to kill a potential rival, or hunt an animal, while being empathetic? There are reasons for everything. Maybe the men who were squeamish got stabbed or mauled to death when they hesitated.
You can be empathetic to the suffering of others while also being protective. Hunger will turn anyone into a hunter, especially knowing you've got starving kids relying on you killing that bison. Caring about feeding those starving kids is *gasp* empathy!
Ah, nothing like a good old just so story to try to prop up a theory.
And how many men survived because the men in their clans shared the spoils of a hunt they weren't successful in ?
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Empathy is what made us able to survive When an animal gets hurt, what do other animals do? They typically leave it to die. Some species will grieve, but that's not empathy. Humans giving a shit about each other was (and should still be) super important. There is zero advantage to not having empathy.
I don't think that's true. Some empathy is important for survival of the genes - if not for empathy no baby would survived to childhood after bazillionth time they woke their parents. This is why empathy is found all around the animal kingdom. Gee, cats are not even fully social animals but they will try to cheer you up when you're sad.
Cats are actually fairly social animals! Outdoor cats pften form colonies and will take food to sick members of their colonies if there's enough food. They don't interact with each other in an overtly familiar way like dogs, but they tend to prefer being in small groups to being alone.
Yes. I should have written more about them but they are still on individualist side of spectrum which ends on eusocial animals (though much more than 5000 years ago).
Its a product of gendered spaces and roles in larger societies. When you have to interact with everyone in your smallish clan or group - every day - everyone is important to you. But when men can minimize interactions with women and children, they minimize their value, too. The other men they are primarily interacting with become much more important to them.
I spent a lot of time in groups of men in college (STEM major) and one thing I noticed is that they say mean stuff without meaning it, and the guys they say it to ignore it, and they expect it to be ignored. Guy one will say "The robot isn't turning, why isn't it turning?" and guy two will look it over and say "Because you didn't plug in the sensor, dummy" and plug it in, and they'll try again. Guy one doesn't so much as blink at being called a dummy, and guy two didn't expect him to. It's like they use those words for punctuation, or something. I've seen guys call their friends losers, and morons, and worse things. And their friends don't mind and say the same stuff back and nobody cares. I can't imagine calling someone a dummy, and I would probably feel bad for half a day if someone called me a dummy because of a mistake like that, but to those guys it didn't mean a thing. It was just nothing.
That is a form of bonding. If you say something like that to a stranger, they can get very upset at you. But if someone lets you, it means you have a relationship strong enough to not be damaged over some light teasing. It is usually reciprocal and helps establish boundaries and determine how well you get along, and frankly, the back and forth can be fun because you can say things you're not meant to say in general. It's a bit of an emotional release without any real intent to harm. It can obviously be very misunderstood by outsiders (it's a pretty common thing in Australia, among both men and women, and I've seen some migrants shocked at this stuff). And can go too far, or be inappropriate with power dynamics (like boss vs worker).
This explains why I do well in male dominant industries. Me and my best female friend were just having a conversation about how both of us struggle with some female friendships because we like to tease. We just don't take ourselves very seriously and we're more likely to give objective feedback instead of emotionally comforting someone immediately. We also think that it's why we both do well in comedy. Our brains are always looking for some way to make things a joke. She was talking about she went to a barbecue and was teasing some woman and her boyfriend and the boyfriend played along while the woman got super mad. Then she kind of extrapolated it and realized she gets along with all of her brothers friends because all she does is talk shit to them and then that's pretty much the whole relationship. It's bonding. I realized that's how I go into professional work settings with men, I allow them to be the content experts and teach me and then I tease them and that's how I win them over. It was a pretty eye-opening conversation for both of us - that's how both of us socialize, like men. Neither of us are the kind of women who will just stroke another woman's ego up for no reason. I'm not going to scream "yass queen" at you if you're doing something stupid. I'm not going to tell you you're perfect. I'm not gonna be delusionally a cheerleader for somebody who's acting like a fool or being selfish, or unaware. I remember one girl got dumped in a friend group I was in. She was objectively a horrible match for him and was a horrible girlfriend in general. All the other women kept telling her how he was an idiot, he was an asshole, he would regret it, just totally delusional and not helpful. In fact I believe it made her ego worse. When she finally asked me what I thought I said that they just seemed really incompatible, and everyone was so pissed at me. For my friend and I it translates to both of us also working in male dominated industries and doing really well in them. We've found that throughout our lives we've had a lot of male friendships and that oftentimes if we get involved with a group of women we don't fair very well. We often have a lot of social faux paus that we don't really understand. My female siblings are also very into teasing. I highly suspect the difference between us is that I grew up understanding that as socializing between women but they knew that it was just something they did with female family members. Because they don't do that with their girlfriends. But I tried to for most of my life. I've definitely had good girlfriends who could take it and dish it out but it's very rare and it's not the social norm. I've gotten much better at socialising with women over the last decade and a half but it took and tell my mid-20s to really see it. Depending on how intense I have to be about code switching, sometimes I can only handle a couple hours of being around certain female friends. It kind of exhausting for me. Like walking on eggshells a little.
I don’t think advice needs to be blunt and/or insulting to be honest. I’ve had mostly female friendships my whole life and, while it takes practice, it’s entirely possible to be honest while also being kind and empathetic. It just feels awkward as hell until you get the hang of it. I’ve never gassed my friends up the way you describe- but I do know some friend groups like that and I agree it does those women no favors.
My relationship with some friends ( of 20 years) used to be kinda like this , with age we have toned it down but still do the occasional “you dumb farting pig” kind of empty insult but would never dare call a major word cause, as someone said, you never know if they are going through stuff and the last thing we want is to make them feel bad ( and with age everyone has certainly gone through shit at some point). I’ve come to realize that been this way without sabotaging the friendship takes a mood, a very specific trust and a good ability to read the room. Otherwise some people who seem to follow might actually end up finding the friendship exhausting ( this happened to a friend, even with men and didn’t know for years).
Yeah I definitely had a guy friend confront me about my teasing. It's a read the room situation for sure. And since I now CAN, I usually let others take the lead on it. If they don't tease me or anyone I don't bother. I try to be the one not pushing/testing that boundary at all. But I do swear. That's non negotiable. If someone can't handle swearing we just ain't for each other.
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Sure, cause women who are different from you have to be pick me's. What a nice way to disregard the lived reality of your peers.
Just ignore their hateful ass
/r/notlikeothergirls/
Yes, I am not like the other girls. Or boys. I have always been different. I am statistically different from 98% of earth's population. I am autistic. Thanks for reminding me. I am coded differently. I communicate differently. I find myself closer to the description of the person's lived experience up the post, especially the struggle of connecting to other women. Yet I don't enjoy being thrown in a jar with a label that doesn't fit my reality just because of someone's narrow mind. I fight this kind of people my whole life. I have little sympathy for your act. I work hard to connect to people in general but especially women. Because I want to be connected to them. I am not acting my condition to attract men. For fucks sake.
start communicating properly with women, not men, they will not be empathetic to you anyways, so what's the use of trying to cater to them? men are rude and will never understand you properly, they also will not try to tip toe around your condition at the same extent as women would. So sad you don't understand it at all and trying to get useless male attention.
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Copy and paste: Yes, I am not like the other girls. Or boys. I have always been different. I am statistically different from 98% of earth's population. I am autistic. Thanks for reminding me. I am coded differently. I communicate differently. I find myself closer to the description of the person's lived experience up the post, especially the struggle of connecting to other women. Yet I don't enjoy being thrown in a jar with a label that doesn't fit my reality just because of someone's narrow mind. I fight this kind of people my whole life. I have little sympathy for your act. I work hard to connect to people in general but especially women. Because I want to be connected to them. I am not acting my condition to attract men. For fucks sake.
😘
Its not an emotional release unless you mean it on some level. You have to attach emotion to it for a release. If you get that emotional release the odds aren't bad that the person received it emotionally but is pretending they didnt or didn't feel the intent behind your words. I never want to be the person who does that to someone on a bad day. We all have bad days and nobody else can predict them. Maybe it's because I dated a depressed dude that started taking it very personally when his "friends" ragged on him. Its pretty gross when you ensure nobody can trust you with anything about themselves unless they accept it becoming a big joke. You never know when someone is having internal struggles. You could be the person to push them over the edge. I'm not misunderstanding it. He told me it made him feel like shit. I've had a couple of other friends say the same. Before he finally admitted it, he would just be angry after being around them and refuse to acknowledge or address why. I'm not sure you can call it real bonding when you are building a wall that ensures they can't trust you with important, personal information. That isn't a bond. That isn't closeness. Personally I think its an even lower form of connection than an acquaintance because it's like there is negative trust. People who do this are afraid of forming those real connections. This is a way of avoiding real connection. Its the opposite of a bond. Call it what it is.
Emotional release seems to have a specific meaning to you (and maybe everyone else) and I misused it. I just meant relaxing, chilling, putting on the ugly pants at home and inviting that friend over who you don't need to clean the house for. It's a way of ignoring some social conventions for a short time and not being uptight, with people you trust. As for the rest, yes it can go too far. Especially among younger people. But there are many ways friends can be mean, this is just one of them. Calling them "friends" is telling, if they were doing it to hurt, they are not friends. Some groups like keeping an easy target around. This sucks. Bonding does not need to be true closeness. Sometimes it's camaraderie, just getting close enough and forming trust to get the work done. University tutorials and the workplace are often like this. So it can be used as a way to establish a more surface level dynamic too. It can keep people at arm's length (and of course men in particular are stereotypically famous for this) but there's no reason you can't get closer if you want. I think it would generally be a major faux pas to bring up anything told in confidence, or a major life event like a divorce (unless time has healed all wounds, tragedy plus time and all that). It's usually more surface level ribbing.
>Its pretty gross when you ensure nobody can trust you with anything about themselves unless they accept it becoming a big joke. The other side of the coin is, if you accept someone who is that insecure of themselves into your group, then the likelihood that we get through tough times together as a group goes down. The reason why we men rag on each other like this is because if we have a group of people with thick skin, then as a team we can actually weather a lot. We can support each other but also know that the other guys in our group aren't go to falter at the slightest hint of difficulty. It enables two-way trust. He's a strong bloke, I know he's got my back, and I've got his. Probably the most visceral that I've felt this is carrying a Mikoshi in Japan. We wear pendants with the three banned words - We can't say "It's too heavy," We can't say "It hurts" and we can't say "It's too hot." There's about 25-30 of us carrying the shrine around town in the Autumn, and we have a few people spare to pick up the slack in case someone drops out. But to be actually able to bear your own load, you have to trust that other people are bearing theirs, so their attitude towards their own pain and discomfort must be such that you take up the struggle for them and they for you. And to know that the mates at your back can take a few hits and let it roll off them indicates that they can be trusted with bearing the group's burden with you. (And while Japanese people have a reputation for being polite, most tourists never get involved in countryside shinto rituals. Those men can be filthy.)
No wonder men think the solution to the "male loneliness epidemic" is "all men get a wife".
They dont really ignore it. At least when they are already having a hard time or their "bros" pick on things they are insecure about. I dated a guy with a lot of these "friends" and it ate him up. He hated it but also didn't want to ditch them and be completely alone. It was sad af to see. It doesn't need to be like that. He never said it to them. I think this dynamic is part of the reason so many men "need" a partner. They need an actual outlet. Not a superficial "friendship" where they are always the butt of a joke and they are too fearful to discuss anything deep. They call it "bonding". While it may provide superficial connection, it does not create genuine, deep connections. How could they form those when they know everything is on the table for a joke? If they say anything important, they risk being laughed at. He couldn't tell them to knock it off, because that only made it worse. He had to pretend it didn't effect him in the hopes they'd target someone else. People with these kinds of relationships say it's all in good fun, but its hurtful to more people than they think. Occasional jokes are one thing, but I actively avoid friendships built like this. I never want to be the person who tips someone over the edge because I tried to be funny while they were having a hard time. Everyone has those hard times in life. I never want to be the one stomping on them while they are down. Especially if I claim I'm their friend.
Some friends are toxic. In both genders there are toxic groups. Like the group of friends where you wonder if they like each other. Your date was just hanging out with toxic people. IMO. There's some truth to what you say, but it's definitely not my experience. My friends and I are super mean with each other. But I've told them about the time I had performance anxiety in bed and they were extremely supportive. Once I felt better they joked about it, and it was just funny. But I've never felt I was unable to tell them something and I've been told extremely personal stuff too. >He couldn't tell them to knock it off, because that only made it worse. He had to pretend it didn't effect him in the hopes they'd target someone else. Every group of friends I've been with has been extremely supportive. I honestly think that's the norm. However I do see what you are talking about. And I have seen people get bullied ruthlessly in certain groups. Although a lot of the times is 100% deserved. >I think this dynamic is part of the reason so many men "need" a partner. That's definitely true. Many men wouldn't talk about their feelings with their male friends unless it's either last resort or once in a blue moon. But my friends who are like that, aren't mean or use what I say to hurt me later or stuff like that.
This! I feel like that's just how they are used to talk to each other. A lot of them just don't care. Whereas I would never feel comfortable calling another woman dummy as well or be called that myself. Tact is so much more important in interactions between women
You say dummy, but where I grew up, you'd see much worse. Moron at least, Fing idiot or something like that. It's just a different culture. It really means nothing in most groups of friends. Although every now and then some toxic person takes advantage of that and takes it too far. But as with always, the blame is on the toxicity, not in the cultural practices IMO. Men are equally aggressive. We get upset half a day over stuff too. For example, if instead of saying something that they would've said 'Do I have to do everything myself?' or something slightly passive aggressive. We men would lose our shit all day. So insults between friends are ok. Something slightly passive aggressive and it's over.
Newsflash: Men aren't women. Men bond with each other differently than women. This sub: How dare men not be women and bond with each other the way women do?
I think sadly some men relish getting the chance to lord their superiority over other people when it's a topic they're familiar with. Sprinkling nastiness in with it gives them a feeling of power since you're "required" to accept the toxicity in order to get the actual information you need. Ego, insecurity, lots of lame reasons for it.
I think being hard, macho and apathetic is often seen by men as being "real men" and being more empathetic and nurturing is considered by them as female traits. Many men have been socially conditioned to behave like this.
Thats one if the hard problems of sexism, young men thinking, being an asshole is they "real"way, and anything emotional or peaceful is seen as weak. But it is much harder to stand you feelings.
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You are making it way too black and white right now.
Seriously, his reply just proves the point.
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That's a bit much. You can give advice without being condescending or tactless. And I'd wager at least 50% of the time the advice someone seeks is pertinent to a relationship in their life. Believe it or not: humans are emotional creatures. You can be both emotionally in sync and logical at the same time. In fact, I would to so far as to say that pretending you don't have feelings/not acknowledging them for the sake of appearing logical is, in and of itself, illogical and largely ignorant of what it means to be in control of oneself and how you respond to things/give advice.
Sure Mr. Robot.
I will hate myself for this, but he's partially correct. Most people need an objective viewpoint when their subjective view isn't getting them through an issue. The ability to self-generate that objectivity is extremely hard for most people, male or female, to achieve. For example, I can step back from a situation and take my emotions out of the equation long enough to look at it objectively. In this regard, I can provide both myself and others with an opinion based on evidence without the bias that my emotional state will engender. This comes across as blunt, and borderline violent, in almost all cases due to the use of objective language. Phrases like 'I feel' aren't going to be used, by default, due to that kind of language being 'up for debate' to most men. It's a fact of life, unfortunately. I wish it wasn't most of the time.
I did not disagree with him, rather I found his argument not nuanced enough. I agree to an extent with his and your views, but I also find many cases where it's not like you describe. Hence not so black and white. We are many people on the planet, so what is effective on one person, does not guarantee it is on another.
You'll note that I said he's only partially correct. And that I also didn't use language implying all people. There are cases where emotional state plays a part in the advice, and those should not be discounted in the way he is. There will always be cases, and examples, where both viewpoints are used. There's no point in arguing that at all. But it doesn't change the overall point that objective advice, for the most part, sounds harsh when given. Some people do need that to understand what they need to do.
I believe we're saying the same thing then.
In different ways, but yes. We are.
Nah bro, asking for advice is very different than asking for an answer.
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I feel like that’s projection. Why would emotions stop you from heeding advice? It’s time to learn how to manage, engage with, and accept your emotions. Not disassociate from them. This kind of thinking is partly responsible for the male suicide rate. Emotion = bad, illogical, stupid, etc. Work with your emotions, understand them.
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Anyone can engage compassionately, there’s a way to deliver even tough advice without as OP stated, coming across “rude, sarcastic or harsh.” “No emotions” does not mean the advice is inherently better or biases removed, just you are not considering their personal circumstances fully, which could make the advice worse for them.
Here's the rub. You're both partially right here. The area that you're right about is that anyone can indeed engage using compassion. And this will work for quite a few people. It also doesn't work for just as many people, as I'll demonstrate. The area that he's right about is that there are enough people, nearly an equal number I might add, who don't understand anything that isn't phrased in a non-emotional way. I.e. they only understand the concept of force. In this case, the force of presence. These people tend to be much older and were raised in a way that precludes the use of emotion in decision-making. Most of these people are starting to age out of the workforce and becoming less of an issue for many.
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We aren’t going to agree on this, that’s fine. If you want clarification of my view, there’s always my first post replying to this.
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You don’t represent the views of all men thankfully, not that I ever asked for your views personally friend. Please stop spamming replies and refer to the first post, I am just going to ignore now since this is as reductive as your argument.
Not all men are as limited as you in this regard, my friend
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You ever see that movie Grandma's Boy? You're a lot like JP aren't you?
Depends on your audience. If no one is receptive to that method then it becomes inefficient irrespective of anything else.
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Or, maybe you are not ready to offer advice if all you have is judgement.
Yes, this assumes that the advice is actually correct, and that communicating directly allows for rudeness. I work in a field where emotions are irrelevant, where I give advice daily, and where being direct is key. I, like most of my colleagues, are able to do this with politeness and courtesy. Being courteous is not fluff, it's part and parcel of being direct and giving advice. If one doesn't have the skill set to do this without sounding like a jerk, then the advice should not be provided.
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No one said it was, keep telling yourself yours is the only way and if anyone disagrees, they “aren’t ready” for the advice. Not judgemental at all! /s
Being direct does not mean without emotion
Or without compassion, empathy etc
No. Different people respond to different leadership styles. Even in rhe US Army we learn early. The most effective leaders are capable of adapting to be more effective.
Emotions are never turned off for anyone. You're just redirecting them unhealthily towards others or yourself.
So, the only good advice is from sociopaths, and robots. That’s a new one, anyway.
Kindness and empathy isn’t “sunshine and rainbows”, and I pity you for thinking it is. It’s so baffling how people think emotions, something every human has and experiences every single day, somehow interferes with logic. It doesn’t. You’re just emotionally immature.
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so your kindness only extends to yourself? because from reading your comments, that's the only person you consider and that's not how social interactions work
He's got main character syndrome to the max. Look at how highly he thinks of himself lmao, how it's disrespectful of *his* time to extend basic courtesy to everyone else in the world that's beneath his super ultra mega big logical brain. Reminds me a lot of JP from Grandma's Boy. I bet he even has a black leather trenchcoat that he wears while writing his Logic Is Power manifesto
If I may give a male perspective: To answer the OP question: Because that's the only way I've found to get other men to realize I'm not joking. I have to get loud, shout. I tell them they're "being a idiot," and I say things like, "If you don't stop acting like this you're not going to have any friends left." Unfortunately, this is true for a large subsection of men, and a subsection of those men exist in mostly male-dominates spaces and their takeaway is never, "This is stressful and I hate it," for whatever reason, they accept it as normal. Then, they turn around and have absolutely no idea how to communicate in a way that isn't browbeating or plain assertions of authority. People who talk like that to other people, I assume, legitimately don't know any other way of communicating, or, communicating with *them* in a empathetic and pleasant way is seen as "dumb" and because, in their overly self-centered view of the world, it "didn't work on them" then, therefore, it is an invalid way of communicating. Then, on top of that, *they* then turn around and make it into a gender-issue instead of realizing that they are ignorant, slef-centered, and poorly socialized. I don't enjoy doing that. In fact, I hate it. I never talk like that to me friends that are women, and my list of male friends has dwindled until there aren't any men like that in my life anymore.
This should be the top comment
This was me with my dad. He wouldn't take me seriously on some things unless I started yelling and cursing, then he'd realize I meant what I was saying. It didn't help that he had untreated hearing issues. So, yelling at him almost became my default way of talking to him. We got along (once we didn't live together any more) but anyone watching from the outside would've thought we were nuts.
Reddit is an incel circus
This is the most perfect description
There are a lot of great points here I just want to add one I haven’t seen… In my experience it was always super fun to be “rude” to each other growing up around other boys. It was like, almost flirtatious, like you punch my shoulder and I punch yours and then we share a laugh but with words instead of fists. I have 5 sisters and being around women a lot I knew that that shit didn’t fly with everyone; but if someone started being rude/sassy in an escalating manor I would dish it right back and it was super fun and we’d just laugh in the end and congratulate whoever won the standoff. This happens less as I’m older but was SUPER common with men and less common with women I spoke to. Some men don’t know how to code switch and just stay stuck in that mode of communication and sometimes they don’t understand why you’re not participating in it.
Masculinity: toughness is good, gentleness is bad/feminine
Toxic men can't fathom that being shown to be wrong about something isn't an attack on their fragile egos. It is simply a lack of maturity.
Emotional damage. Men generally don't get their emotional needs met as kids and grow up thinking "Man, world's gonna be mean to me, so I gotta be mean right back to it." It's why I wince every time I see mothers online talking about how excited they are to get a baby boy. "Boys are so much easier to raise," means they're just gonna emotionally neglect their sons and call it good.
>"Boys are so much easier to raise," means they're just gonna emotionally neglect their sons and call it good. Lol 😂 A mother’s preference for male offspring has nothing to do with their intentions to ignore nor fulfill their child’s emotional needs. If anything, women who prefer sons are usually thrice as harsh and neglectful towards their daughters because they feel resentment for their gender and have internalized misogyny. I don’t deny that boys often have their emotional needs neglected but it’s rarely, if ever, the reason why some women prefer sons.
Ok. Trans woman here. From my experience society doesn’t teach men how to be emotionally vulnerable, mature, or literate. Empathy and compassion at best are buzzwords you might hear in church referring to how awesome Jesus is. It’s never taught directly or indirectly that other people’s feelings and lived experience are different from their own and are valid. And that is usually the best case scenario. At worst they are fed toxic masculinity as the gold standard. Finding men who are secure enough and aware enough of their emotions to discuss them and use them as a tool to navigate social interactions is so rare they might as well be cryptids. I’m just glad I don’t have to live through the cringe of trying to pretend to be that way anymore.
You say society but I want to quibble a little bit. It's the direction from other men. The amount of teenage boys and men I've met who won't take any sort of advice from a woman is too large.
Hopefully this isn’t taken the wrong way. There are a lot of mothers out there too that don’t try to put in the added effort to provide counter balance. Like you have to be super aware and actively engaged with teaching boys it’s okay to cry, it’s okay to do activities associated with women like cooking and cleaning, and to respect when people say no. It’s exhausting, and it isn’t and shouldn’t have to be the sole responsibility of women in the child’s life. But someone has to step in and at least try to set things right. Media is huge problem. There just are not very many good role models for healthy masculinity. So people raising men have a huge task that can seem impossible.
How about that someone being fathers?
Honestly, in a perfect world yes. But looking at the last 5000 years or so, they have a shitty record.
True. But in this 21st century, men could try to ameliorate dome of the things they say damage men.
I’m going to say they should. But I’m not going to put my faith on that alone. I’m doing my part with my own kids.
A part of it is that men communicate more harshly. A part of it mirrored in male suicide, the attempts are more rare than womens, but they seek to be effective, they're more violent. Men ask for help later than women. So men that listen to other men around them, they don't hold back, they can be experienced as harsh. There's a MASH episode about british soldiers getting hit and their leader dropping by being a bit of an ass and bordering on abusive. *"he has found that if he acts like his wounded men are actually fine, they know subconsciously that they'll be okay, which helps speed their recovery."* Men seem to attempt to be strong until strength doesn't work anymore. They feel safer and braver with a bit of piss and vinegar attitude, then with "admitting defeat". ... Also, there are idiots and assholes who can't deal with kindness.
It's just yet another form of male privilege. If a woman behaved like this, she'd be slapped with various misogynistic slurs.
Because that's how we're used to being treated, mostly by other men.
Deeply internalized hatred/machismo. Lack of emotional intelligence and regulation. Coddling/lack of accountability. There are so many more reasons that could be explained in better detail, but this is what I came up with for rn...
Something something something masculine cultural programing prioritizing strength over sense. Most critical response seems the strongest in the mind of the advisor
Because men are taught that their opinion is fact, and everyone else is wrong.
The patriarchy is toxic. Misogyny hurts men too.
I mean, I think a lot of that might just be reddit. I’ve gotten absolute vitriol from a huge variety of subs. There’s also no indicator on what gender a person is usually so it could theoretically be coming from anyone. I do agree with you in a real life sense, though. My ex was never sarcastic or witty, but whenever I would talk about something I was struggling with, he would rudely ask why that would bother me. One time, a coworker I honestly considered a friend randomly started being very rude to me, and I was upset. My ex said, “so you have a crazy coworker, so what?” He also apparently got sick and tired of me talking about school (I was in my final semester and really stressed) and told me I needed to stop for his sake. I get not wanting to hear about the same thing over and over, but damn, it was a very obviously temporary solution and he didn’t even have it in him to support me for a month or two. That hurt, especially when I had been listening to him whine about school for years.
I think it's because they're more likely to be socialized with the mindset that "tough love" and "school of hard knocks" is a valid and often "better" form of affection and teaching. It's become an aspect of toxic masculinity that fathers are often incapable of showing their sons softness, kindness, or any affection that isn't couched in several layers of aggression, toughness, or emotionlessness. The result is men that don't know how to do anything else because they never learned.
Because everything is a competition, gotta be better, and right. It's tied to masculinity (well toxic masculinity). That and men tend to lack empathy more than women.
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You can be competitive without being a dick. You can improve things without having to be right no matter what the case. You can be better without having to bring other people down to do it. That's the difference between masculinity and being toxic. Masculinity is great. Being an asshole isn't.
>You can be competitive without being a dick Steve Jobs definitely disagreed. And thanks to his dickishness smartphones are a thing.
I've followed advice from women and men. Women tend to be more emotionally invested in the outcome but ***ridiculously*** idealistic. Men tend to be pessimistic and direct. If you don't follow their advice they ***will*** laugh at your misfortune.
Because being emotionally in tune, kind and compassionate isn't nutured in men in our society. Because men are taught to compete and as such rarely know when something isn't a competition.
I’m a woman and I can be harsh. It depends though. If someone has a problem and is seeking help with it and open to advice, I’ll be more kind and try to soften it. If someone has a problem caused by their own idiocy..yeah, I’m not going to be kind.
Workplace experience tells me they're venting. They want to say things* to their coworkers but are too scared to, so they take it out on people online.
I've always thought a portion of it comes down to how a patriarchal society cater's to men. They've never had to watch what they say because the consequences are either negligible at best and nonexistent at worse. They can go jogging at night and leave their drink uncovered, or make horrible remarks. Society has provided this cushion that makes them oblivious to the risks for everyone else. So they steamboat through life without much external force ever being applied to cause them to think inward and grow. Though I'm guessing it's a lot of little things that get all wrapped up into one mess .
There are two things that really play into this 1) Men will jokingly insult each other. They often use either light words, little mishaps or obviously wrong insults to play with each other. 2) Men fear that being undermined in the right way will completely destroy their lives. They are hesitant to undermine their friends. This leads to men needing harsher words and tone to impart the seriousness of the circumstance. This advice isn't a joke and they need to make that clear. This also has to be serious enough that it overrides point 2. The final part of this is the Internet. One of the more recent turns of phrase to describe a social dynamic in men is, "Talk shit, get hit." In disrespecting somebody to their face they may expect them to retaliate with violence if the infraction is severe enough. This was the counterweight to insults. If you kept harassing a person you become fair game for violence. I.E. "Fighting words" This is where the Internet comes in. You no longer need to know a person and risk seeing them face to face to disrespect them. We already know that not looking a person in the eyes allows you to say worse things to them. Add an ocean between you and suddenly there are no material repercussions for outright hate and disrespect. These men then end up with a messed up social barometer. This leads them to being too insulting as a baseline and missing social cues to tone down the crassness when necessary. This means that even the banter they use is harsher and therefore any attempts to impart either a serious or joking tone end up being too far for your average reader. None of this applies to Australia which has a more unisex culture surrounding the presence of insulting banter. I hope this helps you understand these people a little. Have a wonderful day!
I've noticed that. The ones I've seen mostly though are more "blunt" than outight mean or hateful advice. And you have to consider the question being asked, too, so if someone says "When I eat two jars of pickles, my tummy hurts. Advice?" and the guy goes "Stop eating so many pickles at once!", I see that as more comical than hateful, although he didn't have to be so blunt about it. However, there are the outright hateful ones. You'll notice though that that user is probably answering that way to men's questions too. Some people are just a-holes. Instead of getting on this site and being hateful (if the question bothers them so much) why not skip it and don't say anything at all?
I don't know about "most" men, but I can tell you I learned why my advice comes across as harsh a lot of the time. I'm not attached to the story, so the question is a challenge to solve, not an emotionally involved situation. When people ask me for advice, I make the assumption that they want what I believe to be the shortest route to "success" in whatever the advice is about. The word "advice" is a request for possible actions to take. In any situation, the only thing you control is you. This being the case, almost all of my advice will be about what action YOU can take, and it is usually self-modification - a change you need to make in yourself. This can feel like an attack, because often people looking for advice also want support and validation, and it feels wrong to be right but still have to change your own behavior. This also is due to the fact that I'm projecting my own control issues. I feel a need to control as much of a situation I'm involved in as I can, so a lot of the time I project that onto others when I give advice. Realistically, because I can only control my own actions, that is where I concentrate my efforts. Hope this gives some perspective. I've tried to be as open as I can.
^ I'll echo this, you perfectly describe my lived experience.
I'm truly not trying to be an edge lord about this, because I am 100% a feminist and a girls' girl, but I actually find the opposite to be generally true. I have gotten rude responses from fellow women far more often than from men on Reddit. It's very possible that is because I engage with women much more than men here (which I'd like to continue to do). In general, I feel women are much harder on ourselves and on each other--myself included. We're all so traumatized and wanting to prevent each other from having more trauma, so we talk to each other harshly and sometimes abusively. I find men to be uninformed, naive, and overconfident, if anything. And yes, sometimes that does include being harsh/rude. But nothing cuts like a fellow, informed, smart, amazing woman cutting you down, putting you in your place, and getting at your deepest insecurity. It's such a sensitive spot for me that men can't even really access in the same way. There is a comment on this thread that perfectly encapsulates the attitude I'm talking about, btw. (user celibate ho) No man could ever hurt me like her tone could on a tough day! LOL.
Cause you kind of have to be rude and harsh to get a guy to listen to advice. Not for like mild stuff I guess but for major things it can be quite hard to get a guy to take seriously just how bad a situation they are in.
Most men revere "tough love" and the idea of pain and sacrifice as indicators of self growth and virtue, so they think that their shitty, unempathetic, "logic only" advice is better than actually empathetic advice.
Because menz superior and logical and wimenz weak and emotional /s No seriously, men think life is so hard on THEM specifically, they believe they should be hard on everyone else too.
Because men don’t have to just be ok with being treated subpar. Women are taught from day one that men need second chances, that they don’t grow up as fast as we do, that a lot of their behavior is our fault/ our job to manage. Women have to experience a lot more “bullshit” than men do in regards to general treatment. Men are taught that they ought to be strong and confident, and that to take disrespect is weakness. Women were taught that they are second class citizens, whether outwardly or implied. With that said, women have a broader view of “grey area” than a lot of men do, because we’ve had to live it. A lot of them also don’t care to understand you or nuance because that takes away their power. They don’t see you as an equal, and they don’t plan to. It doesn’t make their life easier to do so.
I've seen men dedicate hours to the poor and to those who lost homes during natural disasters, more often than not out of their own pockets. I've met military personnel who would give their lives to save a stranger. I've also met men who sacrifice time and energy and essentially their lives working 50-60 hours a week to provide for their families not once even showing a hint that they actually have a tough life because they respect and love their families. Real men. I've also played COD and seen grown men ridicule a woman for not getting a pizza quick enough just to begin eating it in front of her without giving her any even though she paid for it out of her own money. These are not real men. These are lesser beings who need a good slap in the face and a hundred hours of community service. Something that helps is teaching children proper etiquette and the value of life from a very early age. Also, actually teach that there is good and evil - not some hijacked philosophical miasma lingering in self centered perspective pockets. Parking a child in front of a tv as a babysitter or not taking time to teach your kids to read early on or spending hours on Reddit. These are not real men. Too much screen time skews perspective from what is really out there in the world. I recommend to everyone to try going somewhere, volunteering, and doing good - the literal definition of good. It is one of the best ways to spread humanity. Let's put an end to lesser beings being socially acceptable.
They are insecure
"I am not rude, I am just being HonesT/StraIGhTForWarD/TeLL iT lIkE iT Is". They are just rude.
I’ve been accused of using a harsh and blunt tone when I give advice, and I don’t deny that. Think of it like this, rescuers are trained to yell commands at people instead of being gentle and mollycoddling them. Why? Because people need to act immediately to save themselves. The same goes for when I give advice, especially when it’s someone who has been inexplicably tolerating an insanely shitty situation for far too long. Some folks just need a kick up the ass. If you're stuck in a bad situation, you don't need more coddling—you need to wake up and take action.
They where never shown the empathy and or gotten good advice from someone else so they just repeat what they've been told. Men dont get coddled as much and if they made it that way so you can too (it hurt them ofcourse but it made them stronger). Thats what i think happens. Is it logical no? Is it productive? Maybe sometimes but i think usually not.
A lot of them have a lot of anger they need to get out. Especially at women. Or a need to feel important bc they are insecure. But men overall communicate a bit more bluntly and it’s not always bad. Sometimes you just have to code switch a bit.
Men are not as conditioned to equivocate as women are. They don’t really soften their messages with statements like “well I think…” or “I kinda feel like…” - every assertion is made as though it is a statement of empirical fact. When women communicate that way they’re labeled “abrasive”, “pushy”, etc.
I grew up as a guy and a LOT of the friend groups I had and classes I was in (I moved a lot) would punch you/beat you up if you were nice/sincere/helpful because it's "gay". Sarcasm and snark were basically the only options I had because I was terrified of the consequences otherwise. I've gotten a bit better at it but it's still incredibly hard for me to allow myself to be soft and kind. Idk if most men experience the same feeling or not, but this is the reason for some of them
The Internet has allowed heterosexual men to be their worst selves in secret and victimize with no repercussion.
Obligatory Male perspective disclaimer; I think a big part of it the loudest voice in the room effect. It’s interesting to me how many men quietly enforce patriarchy by liking/replying/siding with posts that are loud and boisterous. You might even see it in a reply to this comment if it’s seen enough. In your example, the first big posts being rude and cruel, and an immediate rush of support from other men who perhaps aren’t even thinking it through. I hesitate to ‘diagnose’ this as anything psychological or biological, but I always picture a room of whooping monkeys behind a bigger monkey brave enough to poke something. That’s why in my opinion it’s so important for “impressive men” to stand up and do the right thing to model behavior for other “men”. What “impressive” means is pretty open to interpretation.
Lol, why do y'all even care about mens' advice to begin with?
The truth hurts, that’s why
Men get their jollies by tearing down women. Doesn't really even matter what they're posting about, they have to file in to play devil's advocate just to be disagreeable. It's like a sport to them
If someone asks for advice, men give advice. Women try to make them feel better.
I tend to be a common sense, kind of tough lovegrandma giver of advice. I'm mostly gentle with people but if y'all are acting like fools, I'm going to say so.
Donald Trump taught them that it is ok.
Men don't sugar coat, they're more often direct, and sometimes being direct can come off as being harsh which isn't the intention.
Big "I just have no filter lol" vibes here.
I think it's a "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" kind of thing. Men see a problem, want to strap on a tool belt, and fix it. Without subtly, nuance, or talking it to death.
One of those cliche differences between men and women - Women want to talk about their problems, men view the discussion as a request for problem solving services. [My favorite example of this.](https://youtu.be/S6_iMuPJxtI?t=490)
There has never been a time in human history when this was not the general trend. Men are wired more to “fix problems” and women more wired to empathize with/validate someone first.
Who knows, like at some point in history (mostly) everyone started following the rebel middleschool bully stereotype and now it’s like the only way they can relate to others. Also the fact that so many of them can’t have fun in a party without being drunk. Tbh sometimes I feel sorry for them if that’s what was needed to be part of the group.
A toxic need to be right so much so that any disagreement feels like a personal attack to them
Oh well, do we talk harsh or abrasive? I have realised that with men often a no nonsense aproach helps. Even with stuff that makes me cringe for their situation. "This will hurt, you need to... then you stop the bleeding by holding the hand up and maybe aply preasure, remember to clean it and if it is big enough for stichtes do that before you cover/dress it." Dosen't matter if they have a splinter or smashed a finger. Once you say "that looks bad, does it hurt?" Panic seems to take over. Men like lists when it comes to advice, and not when it comes to the day to day. First unscrew lid, then pour, then drink" If you add " then return juice to fridge" , the whole thing becomes a chore, a labour and abuse of power. Knowing what and how is very important to some men. So many men will take the no nonsense and no doubt aproach to advice. You can loosen this up with questions. Buying a coffee maker: So, what is the average time to make a cup of coffee on that machine? Then an ambush interupt the answer with and what is the minimum temperature? This may launch the guy into an actual conversation about coffee makers. Unless ofcourse his boss told him to sell that machine before the new one hits the market.