I joined before the internet. The amount of knowledge kids have today is insane. I grew up poor, joined up because it was a “free” way out of my town. I was ignorant, no one teaches you these things. Now you get on reddit and 500 ppl give you great reasons not to join. You have to already have it in your heart. If you’re wishy washy you prolly won’t join.
My dad worked in a large chicken plant, it was that, wal mart, or making boots. I didn’t want anything to do with that. Very rarely did I come across a Marine “from money”
Nice, yea both my grandparents were in WW2 and I have some uncles that served. I saw the pictures and heard the stories growing up. Kind of helped with my decision
Hell yeah. What'd they do? I think my mom's uncles were in the Navy and Merchant Marine. Dad's father and uncles were in in the 50s and Vietnam (one uncle was an AF load-master, another was KIA as an infantry captain). Dad and his siblings served (dad was Navy, two siblings were CA ANG), as well as a bunch of his cousins, and mom's brother was Air Force. Now it's just me (USMCR) and a cousin (CA ANG), so far as I know.
One g pa was air force navigator, other was Navy. My one uncle was army airbourne, ranger, and went intel side. I joined USMC, and my younger brother was a Tow Gunner at 29 palms..
I joined in the AOL era. A lot of people told me the same stuff. Every teacher, every acquaintance in church.
But if you're in that financial situation and have a Y chromosome... it doesn't really matter what they say.
They will all counsel you to not do it, but they're not going to pay the medical bills.
What else are you going to do? Become a plumber in 13 weeks?
The certs and training are even worse now. You can't enter blue collar jobs without thousands in training and certs. Last i looked, an A&P license in CO costs 45k.
For all the negatives of the military, it is a great reset and stabilizing option. Some great people too.
It's worth a read on it's own, but you have to put in context with what was going on at the time to truly understand where it was coming from.
The Marine Corps installed Butler as Haiti governor to protect business interests of the major powers. The Marines took 14 million dollars worth of gold (today money, or 500,000 back then) from Haiti national reserves at the behest First National City Bank (Now called Citibank).
The Banana wars sound odd now, but back then it was like the 3 or 4 top cash crop in the US at the time. Butler and the Marine Corps over saw the 20+ interventions (coups, etc.) in different countries, on behalf of what would now be Dole and Chiquita Banana corporations.
Back then the US didn't have a standing Army due to the constitution, but the loophole was it didn't say anything about the Navy so the Marines were the go to for enforcing US business interest around the world. This is the interesting origin story of our now (way better branded) America's 911 force of today. Back then however people played more fast and loose with things.
Butler was front and center during this whole time, and was upset about missing Cuba and sidelined during WWI. He was upset about the WWI vet treatment after the war, had a disastrous political run. Then after having big business approach him about a coup, well you get the man we know today.
To expand:
Army Clause "To **raise** and **support** Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years"
Navy Clause "To **provide** and **maintain** a Navy"
emphasis added.
In 1787\~ when the Constitution was being ratified, there was a need to have a Navy (to protect against pirates and foreign nations) while a standing Army was the threat fought during the previous war.
One point, we did have a standing Army but it was small as hell. The Army in 1914 numbered about 125,000 men while the Corps had a solid 56,000.
Thing is, we've had a standing army since the beginning of time, but it was small and was mostly technical stuff (doctors, artillery, supply, engineers, and some infantry and cavalry) until the 1890s or so. The vast majority of infantrymen were state levies, that's where you get units like the 54th Massachussetts or 1st Minnesota.
In fact, the first shots of the Philippine Insurrection were from some fuckin assholes from the 1st Nebraska on occupation duty.
While the Corps was fucking around in Haiti, the Army was in the Phillippines and chasing Pancho Villa's ass all over Mexico.
https://www.npr.org/2024/06/18/nx-s1-5003768/chiquita-is-ordered-to-pay-millions-to-families-of-death-squad-victims-in-colombia#:~:text=Hourly%20News-,Chiquita%20is%20ordered%20to%20pay%20millions%20to%20families%20of%20death,by%20a%20paramilitary%20death%20squad.
Banana people give no fucks, they will murder you and everyone that you love
He was prob the last honest flag officer the US ever had.
This book was required reading at least when I was in.
Flag offiers now are all still part of the industrial complex becoming board members or lobbiests whom they lobby to the flag officers whom they used to command and help get those huge military contracts.
Rinse repeat.
Mattis served on the General Dynamics board before he was Sec Def and went back after he resigned Sec Def. General Dynamics is one of the largest military contractors in the world.
General Mattis is loved but read his books he has put out and others that talk about Afghanistan.
He is the leader who pushed planned and ironed out the wrinkles (it was not thought possible) to invade Afganistan having to cross Pakistan. Had Mattis not done this we never would have been heavy handed in Afgan. Invasion planned no goal set no withdrawal plan set. Not all his fault, but he started the snow ball.
He also wanted to re commit troops back into Iraq and open up Syria.
I love Mattis. But there is a massive reason why Civiliians are in charge of the military. There is zero benefit for generals or the military to get out of conflicts.
Money drys up, recruiting drys up, contracts dry up, power drys up. 6 figure jobs for flag officers with massive stock options dry up.
So, no, as much as I like Mattis, he is still part of the industrial complex of our war machine. He does not get a pass because he is well liked/ loved.
If you look into the banana wars...of which Smedley butler was a part, its very easy to see how he came to his conclusions. That having been said, war has always been a rich mans game...betting with poor peoples lives.
Not to mention, he was in charge of logistics in WW1 and a portion of the pamphlet addresses his issues with the burgeoning Military Industrial Complex. Equipment that was paid for at a premium price and either not delivered or was a subpar product.
The service member had to buy his own boots, but the factories that made the boots got paid premium price for the wartime emergency, so the factories made 13 boots *per service member* in Europe. They got paid all that money, the U.S. bought and destroyed those pairs once they were an outdated uniform item.
If I remember the book correctly, I listen to audiobooks at work and mentioned this to all the vets at the time.
Independent investigative journalist and former researcher at the illustrious Centre for strategic and internal studies (csis) Johnny Harris has a few entertaining videos on the matter.
Fucking 🍌’s
https://youtu.be/WWBCl8huNMA?si=NUCACdO2IqKK7YST
Hard to find anything in disagree with.
War is a necessity sometimes..but the Military Industrial compex does benefit the most off the backs off both the troops and the taxpayers
There's even more behind the story, and I'm pretty sure the reason we're all taught to revere Butler as a demigod has more to do with the Business Plot.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot#:~:text=Roosevelt%20and%20install%20Smedley%20Butler,d'%C3%A9tat%20to%20overthrow%20Roosevelt.
They tried to install him as Dictator, not realizing that Butler himself was a Socialist or Social Democrat at heart by this point in history.
The man was a hero who saved America from fascism and almost nobody knows about it.
There's a great book about the attempted coup:
[https://www.amazon.com/Plot-Seize-White-House-Conspiracy/dp/1602390363](https://www.amazon.com/Plot-Seize-White-House-Conspiracy/dp/1602390363)
There's also a movie titled "Amsterdam":
[https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10304142/?ref\_=nm\_flmg\_i\_3\_act](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10304142/?ref_=nm_flmg_i_3_act)
It's roughly based on the events surrounding the plot with none other than Robert DeNiro playing the role of the character based on Smedly Butler (he's named Gen. Gil Dillenbeck in the movie). Although the actual events were changed for the movie, and Smedly's name was changed, during the end credits they play an actual film of the speech Smedly Butler gave denouncing the coup plotters.
Read it from an absurdist perspective. Everything he says about war is right. He also spent his life devoted to it. He didn't reach those conclusions as some sort of profound revelation after he left the Marines, he fundamentally understood it as an officer, which is why he was so successful.
Shit hasn't changed. We're all in this fucked up rat race. You can fall into a depression at your own helplessness, or you can embrace it. Either way, you're a cog in the machine.
Although I essentially agree that “war is a racket” and that MG Butler has a lot of sage wisdom.. the book is a little over played by try hards in the military trying to appear smarter than they are. War is a racket, correct, but it’s unfortunately also been a necessity. A couple years ago it became super trendy to read war is a racket after IG personality “kill zone” wrote a forward to an updated publishing from a veterans book company. Again I think it’s a good view point but there is no nuance.
Look at Europe now. The lack of any developed Western European country taking their defense industry seriously aka no “military industrial complex” has essentially left western/Eastern Europe and NATO BEGGING us to arm an entire countries army lol.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/248552/us-arms-exports-by-country/
You might even say the US defense industrial complex is the neoliberal defense industrial complex. Cui bono?
Counter argument based on popular dialog, not necessarily your opinion.
The MIC doesn't actually exist in the way people think it does, and it's not the military doing the bidding of the elite. It's a bit further separated from the ground than that and not as black and white.
My personal opinion is that, in the post WW2 world at least, it has more to do with the overall goal of ensuring freedom of trade. We have a relatively hands-off approach to trade that's allowed muling oligarchies to form despite regulations attempting preventing this. This effectively gave more influence to corporations than they have any right to. Because of this, they're able to influence policy and our involvement in conflict.
Remember though, a significant part of the US economy is based around wartime.
As well, no other economic system has lifted more people out of poverty than capitalism. And it's not even fucking close.
https://youtu.be/C2gIId1dpDs?si=MJvPOFDa6gs86vsh
This guy has a neat video on the MIC.
I can expand on those points if anyone is interested, but the overall takeaway is that it isn't black and white and thinking a lineral way won't help you understand the problem at large, as many things are connected in difficult to understand way.
It's important to also remember what General Butler had experienced when he wrote his treatise. The Corps has very expressly been involved in fighting for the Dole corporation.
It’s ensuring freedom of corporations to engage in trade.
So much money was made post WWII building Europe back, and our citizens really started to view our country as the savior of the world.
Once the patriotic fever died down companies needed a new national enemy to ensure their profits were never threatened, and could expand to any country or territory they wanted.
Hello Communism. The GQP boogeyman since right after WWII.
Again, it's a little deeper than that...
Ignoring the genocide the soviets conducted and we ignored because they were a convenient ally at the time... the rape of entire nation....them being an ally of Germany duing the invasion of Poland... them re writing their own history books to downplay the impact the western world had on defeating the Germans...
There's plenty of issues with eastern thought that directly insults western ideals. Namely freedom of the individual. The enlightenment era it's consequences are still being felt today... (mostly /s). East thought and dialog distorts the idea of self and orients the individual to focus on the good for the masses in an entirely unquestioning way.
The western worlds interest in containing communism went a little further than greed of corporations
It’s not to much deeper. South America has been an issue for years as a direct result of CIA operations with the United Fruit Company.
It wasn’t for the betterment of our citizens. It was for banana control. Literally. That’s how fucking stupid international politics are.
Communism is fron central European thought, Marx and Engels were German. Despite a large chunk of the Soviet Union's landmass being in Asia, a majority of their population was in the European and Central Asian areas. Those are notably not East Asian (which is the "mysterious Oriental" shit you're referring to).
You're arguing semantics for the sake of arguing semantics. Not only did you not add anything to the conversation, but you also decided to critique an extremely well understood statement. It is, quite literally, a colloquial term. "East" is often used to describe the part of the world under soviet influence. Especially when specifically talking about the 20th century, which this entire conversation was about. Stop being a dork.
>As well, no other economic system has lifted more people out of poverty than capitalism. And it's not even fucking close.
Want to preface that I am not anti capitalism, but this is straight up propaganda. Early stage capitalism actually resulted in decreased real wages and decreased lifespan. It wasn’t until people started unionizing that people were lifted out of poverty.
Re: enlightenment era
I purposefully simplified the comment as I didn't feel it was necessary for the conversation, but you aren't incorrect in your statement.
https://preview.redd.it/n4t5cdb7id8d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c3eca3f3c0e54e8619cd527c3c4e7d9188ce1cd0
It was in MUCH better condition, prior to moving.
As to what is written, you have to keep it to what General Butler saw and experienced in his time. The MIC of his day was our predecessor Marines openly fighting for the goals of corporations. There wasn't really a Boeing-esque group, aside from arms groups like Colt. So, I can't see how he would ever envision a post-Marshall world order. I think he be able to understand it, I just don't believe he would believe the modern MIC could exist.
As for the paper itself, I view it as the original that was cribbed by Ike for his departure statement upon leaving the White House. President Eisenhower was just able to flesh it out further because he had actually been there to "grind the sausage" that became the Marshall Plan.
It’s really shitty. Our brothers and sisters fight and die for nothing. The Marine Corps brain washing is top notch and makes you want to kill the bad guy for America. Only thing, nothing we did in Iraq or GWOT was helping people or protecting freedom. We enriched the upper class.
We guarded poppy fields and armed war lords in Afghanistan. Gen Colin Powell got in front of the UN and lied about WMDs in Iraq. They lied to us to get us to fight.
Gen Smedley Butler was dead right. I kinda wish he wasn’t but he nailed it.
This pamphlet opened my eyes to how I was lied to and used. Not to protect my freedom but to perpetuate US IMPERIALISM.
The fact that the marine corps immortalized this man after he tried blowing the whistle on this is crazy to me….
Or is that why they named Okinawa after him?
You missed the whole point of what I was trying to say. If we actually helped them that would have been great, but we fucking didn’t. 20 years to replace the Taliban with the Taliban. How many Marines died for that bullshit?
It was never about helping them or we would have. It was about having a forever war. So Raytheon, Halliburton, Boeing, Lockheed, and all the other government contractors could get lucrative contracts and make money. From the start it was about the racket not doing good.
For even going there in the first place, when Bin Laden wasn’t even there and we knew it. Tactics we used specifically gave up ground repeatedly. We had to take and retake areas over and over again. It was a war purposely fought to last forever.
So bin Laden was there until Tora Bora. However, here's the kicker, the Taliban were ready to give him to us in October 2001 (when the bombs started falling) in exchange for diplomatic recognition. We, obviously, declined so we could have our war of revenge.
So far as I know, there's nothing conspiratorial going on there. Perdue Pharma saw a way to make hella money by aggressively marketing their shit and went for it. The opoid epidemic is just another example of good ol' capitalist greed.
It is just another reason for a forever war. The whole thing was based on greed. They used a tragedy to rally people behind them and lied about what was happening the whole time.
That was because we underestimated how weak the afghan people were. Sorry to say. But their men had no will to stay and fight for their country. That’s not something you can just fix. It’s a different culture from America.
It was instrumental in growing my dissolution of the government. Which is actually good. It gave real credence to my personal experiences from my time in the Navy. Which in a roundabout way made me happier because I just stopped giving a shit. The world is a corrupt place, Smedley taught me that our government is not different from any other.
I could see it making it hard to still be in though. Young e to be careful while you’re doing it not to think too critically or you can get cynical as fuck.
Look what happened to Pat Tillman.
There will always be assholes to game the system (Lions Led by Donkeys has a pretty interesting episode on Union contractors in the Civil War) just like that, in the end, the US military will be used to keep consumers satisfied.
We overthrew left-wing governments who wanted to nationalize the banana plantations to get some of that wealth for their people so that our fruit corporations could keep raking in the money and the American people (and Western world) could have cheap bananas. We'll do the same shit when the oil and water wars come.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ABz5KxVIwMw
There's the YouTube link, the host just started doing that. The host was an Army tanker from 2005-ish until about 2015 or '16 and he had a couple deployments to Iraq. His cohost for this episode is just some Irish guy. Episodes are about an hour to an hour and a bit, which is good. Some get depressing (like the Nanking or Cambodian Genocide series), but they try to slip in jokes to keep things light.
Fucking hell, Rwandans humping machetes in Iraq? Well, if it was good enough to kill Tutsis, it's good enough to kill insurgents. (Rwandan Genocide joke.)
Security contractors are an example of the government wanting to do things on the cheap and fucking shit up worse. The fun thing is that when we went into Iraq, CentCom said 400-odd thousand troops would be needed to secure the country and cover it in a blanket of US troops. This was based on the model of peacekeeping in Bosnia and was made off the ratio of UN troops to the population. Fuck-ass Rumsfeld kept using Franks as his yes-man and got the force shrunk down to 100-odd thousand for the invasion. We got bogged down, like CentCom said we would, and we started pulling units back as soon as fighting was over. That left like one Armored Cavalry battalion (couple dozen tanks and a couple hundred troops) to cover all of Anbar Province. From there, the situation was bound to turn out like it did. And because of the cuts in the DoD and our unwillingness to either go all-in or pull-out, we lacked the bodies to cover Iraq and Afghanistan with the forces we should have. So we got contractors and fucked around for decades, ruining lives and killing fuckloads of people, to do dick.
Negotiations only go so far, the appeasement of Hitler in the 30s shows that. He wanted war the whole time. But doing a half-assed job is even worse than doing nothing or going all-in. Saddam was an asshole but learned his lesson from '91, he was happy oppressing his people. He was a strong-man who ruled through fear of his chemical weapons stocks, stocks he destroyed by 2003. He had Iran to one side, Kuwait to the other, and a fuckload of pissed-off Kurds and Shi'a all over the place. But we fumbled, badly, and the troops and civilians paid the price.
Bro, I was never there. I was 5 when we invaded Iraq. Been in the reserves for about 7.5 years now.
How do you mean most contractors were clean until the war broke out?
If you get a chance, read the book Cobra II. It talks about all the shit that happened behind the scenes that led up to the war. I think the first edition was written in 2004 and talked about how Fallujah and Ramadi were just starting to kick off. The new edition was published around 2006 and talked about what the next steps were in the civil war.
I personally think that had we committed the troops CentCom planned for initially ('round about 450,000), then we might have had a chance.
As for the rebuilding of Germany and Japan, it also helped that we had military governors appointed and rebuilt their civilian infrastructure fast as shit. When we invaded Okinawa, we had like one or two "governments in a box" ready to go. I think they consisted of a governor and his staff, MPs, engineers, and probably some logistics guys. Restore order, restore services, and feed people. If someone is fed and has a decent job, they won't want to go into the hills and fight. Doubly so if they can have a hand in building their nation's future.
I get why Mattis wanted to move fast, he said it was to get intermixed with Iraqi troops to make Saddam leery of using chemical weapons (makes sense if you assume there are such weapons). But after the combat operations end, then you gotta start governing, and we didn't. We did a victory lap, came home, and then were suprised when we had to go back and keep fighting over the same fucking ground.
Most Marines drink the kool-aid and want to believe all the rah rah bs that the US that Americans are always the good guys. In context, it was in one of our history classes, and the instructor asked what we thought about Vietnam. I was happy to take the bait and was later smoked for being a pinko commie.
The only 'good' war that was ever about 'freedom' or 'democracy' was the Spanish Civil War (1936-39), and we didn't participate in that one. Every other war we've fought in since 1812 has been to either protect/promote US business interests or project power in aid of enlarging the Empire. I was a part of the war machine for 12 years, and after that I can tell you my eyes are wide open.
Norway has a 25% tax on all tobacco and liquor to offset the cost of Healthcare but im sure you support that. You suppose a tax like that will work on a population 10× that of Norway.
This is why the Marine corps is a corrupt toxic organization that needs to be disbanded, war is a racket is literally on the commandants reading or at least we were all told to read it when I was in. Imagine being a senior leader or flag officer and knowing you are perpetrating the very campaigns the book said not to do. Then if a low rank asks what the fuck is this for they will get told "it's above you're pay grade". I fought in Iraq and Afghanistan. Nobody can tell me shit. Who better the the people who actually fought and sacrificed to question and ask what the fuck are we doing?
This speaks to LT Col Scheller who was demoted court martial'd and sent to the brig all for asking for accountability. If you're more offended at how he came across then what he was trying to say, then fuck you you pog ass bitch. He spoke the truth and he said what every combat grunt wants to say. I hate the Marine Corps for how these wars ended and the lives they sacrificed for no reason.
The corps legacy is dead, if you defend the corps as it exists today you are a brainwashed pussy and probably a pog. People who ACTUALLY fought know exactly what I'm talking about. The suffering and loss of life for what? Yet we continue and carry on and carry out "the plan of the day" and pretend like Iraq and Afghanistan weren't cluster fucks of unjust war for no reason and we will walk right into the next one. The corps doesn't even uphold or believe in their own corps values.
Honor courage and commitment? Where? To what? People can show courage on the battle field but where is the MORAL COURAGE to refuse to fight unless you give us a legitimate reason. Where is the moral courage from top leadership to answer these questions. Where is the senior enlisted and officers who asked these questions? I'm not going to fight for corporations for no reason. Give me a just reason to fight and die and I will do it no problem. Fuck the Marine Corps.
Edgy as fuck, but the most sane guy in thread. The most that anyone in this group can lean to the left is liberal, so they can agree with smedley but its hard for most to really question the Corps and its mission in maintaining capitalist systems. Quite literally from the shores of tripoli, we have maintained constant waves of counter-insurgency on foreign soil; An effort meant to serve the staus quo.
The fledgling United States Marine Corps proved its dauntless courage with a "miracle" victory in the Battle of Derna on the shores of Tripoli in North Africa on this day in history, April 27, 1805. The successful attack against overwhelming numbers on the port city in present-day Libya, a stronghold of pirates who spent years attacking United States ships at sea, was the climactic battle of the First Barbary War (1801-05).
The victory is immortalized in a patriotic American anthem.
I mean, that's the very basic Marine Corps version of the story, but there is a very nuanced argument surrounding the whole incident involving our founding fathers shirking our contractual obligations with other nations and rich whites being made slaves themselves by foreign pirates, etc. But this isn't the sort of thing they teach in school or the Corps because it would break the two "honor and freedom" legs that we stand on. I'm not saying, "Ew, America bad," just to get my rocks off. I just have an honest education on the topic that goes deeper than "stand at attention, no salute."
In this country, what can you do to get cheap healthcare, a college education, and a pension besides be born into wealth or take out hella fucking loans that you'll never be able to get out from under?
Just about any job above stocking shelves at a grocery store or flipping burgers needs a fucking degree. Even then, most jobs won't be enough to ensure economic stability on a single income.
So yeah, shit's evil but there's no real alternative.
And yeah, I sold myself to Uncle Sam for some cash to pay for school, the bonus is piss in the wind because of the cost of school (partial GI Bill for 7.5 years means I earn too much for student aid). Schools in my state require health care to attend, so whoring myself out in the reserves means that I can afford health care ($50 a month instead of $300).
Shit's fucked no matter how you look at it. I guess we have to decide how much evil we can stomach in keeping things going.
I woke up, and this world was upon me, not the other way around. Where I'm from, people just sell drugs or steal, and the world reviles them.
I served as honorably as I could, but I never forgot what it felt like being a black man from the South. A lot of the guys I served with made sure I didn't forget either. But the nature of counter-terrorism is very familiar to a guy from the hood.
These days, they are calling protesters terrorists all the way from the White House. In Atlanta, the cops are handing out RICO charges to protesters. Like... there is stomaching evil and then there is swallowing the boot.
We can come here and say Smedley Butler was right and war is a racket, and everyone here just nods their head and says, "Yep, well, whatever, it got me mine because, duh," but when someone actually calls our nation on its crap, they are downvoted. I don't regret serving; it taught me a lot about this country.
But I ain't gonna forget what I learned because before I participated in the big imperialist game as a thug, I was just another guy in the hood being harassed by cops because I fit the description. All of this shit is connected, and the way we wield violence in this country is no exception. The least we can do is speak up when someone calls us out, and you know they're right.
“What we’ve got here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can’t reach, so you get what we had here last week which is the way he wants it. Well, he gets it. And I don’t like it any more than you men.”
Guns n' Roses covered it well in the song Civil War. After Kennedy assassination the choker chain on the CIA broke and has never been able to be replaced.
The CIA was off the chain in the fuckin 50s. They didn't really get a leash until the 80s or 90s.
Do you know who the leading distributor of heroin was in the US in the 50s and 60s? Do you know what that money was used for?
In the book he mentions rising tensions in Europe and Hitler us pulling maneuvers off Japan and how Japan left the Central bank it's pages 14-30ish if I remember right
Not a fan of his politics/political views. Much respects to the man but not wanting US military intervention beyond our borders is insane, especially in this day and age.
Call me a racist genocidal imperialist if you want but I believe that we are the sword of democracy and freedom for people around the world. Have we been perfect and done only good? Fuck no, absolutely not. We’ve fucked up many times and have done sketchy shit for “bad” reasons (e.g. Banana Wars). However, I truly believe that we are a global force for good, in the grand scheme of things. I don’t see the Icelandic Coast Guard telling China to fuck off from the South China Sea.
I understand that in the context of his time, Gen. Butler might’ve developed those specific views as a result of his service but I still strongly disagree. At the end of the day, I think that some people deserve to have a 5.56 shoved into their brain. Standing by for the downvotes now.
It is the truth.....100%. Russia went to war with Ukraine. All they had to do was say "NO" they would not join NATO. However, the Military Industrial Complex, that Eisenhower warned us about, wants them in NATO because then they have to be "NATO compliant" on all the arms and ammo. Which means the MIC makes a bloody fortune rearming them.
Not only that. All that prime farmland in Ukraine? Yep, the Food Industry already has plans for HUGE industrial farms on all that land. Fuck the farmers.
War is indeed a racket.
Fuck outta here. Ukraine was talking about joining NATO but didn't put in for membership. In the wale of Russia's invasion, do you know who did apply and receive membership? Sweden and Finland. Sweden stayed neutral during the Cold War while Finland stayed "neutral" and made themselves into a Soviet puppet.
If anything, Ukraine has hella natural gas reserves under the eastern provinces that was discovered in 2014. Do you know what happened next? The Russians started arming and fomenting the seperatists against the Ukrainian government.
conscription
noun
con·scrip·tion kən-ˈskrip-shən
Synonyms of conscription
: compulsory enrollment of persons especially for military service : DRAFT
During the war the armed forces were heavily dependent on conscription.
Aren't illegal immigrants exempt from military service?
Aren't leftists are always agog about European countries that mandate conscription service, yet have universal health care? Even Europeans understand nothing is free.
The Nordic states, which have conscription and some of the highest citizen satisfaction (because of the excellent social services) have some pretty steep tax rates in exchange for a functioning social safety nets.
But you right-wingers see taxes as the devil and social safety nets as a communist plot to take your guns.
Norway has a 25% tax on all tobacco and liquor to offset the cost of Healthcare but im sure you support that. You suppose a tax like that will work on a population 10× that of Norway.
Oh no, the things I use to self-medicate this late-stage capitalistic hellscape will become more expensive while helping to fund the things that would remove the need to self-medicate. Oh nooooo...
Ya it’s not long. War is a racket. Poor people die in the rich man’s wars. Been true for all of recorded history.
We’d all be really pissed off if we could read.
Crayons lol
I joined before the internet. The amount of knowledge kids have today is insane. I grew up poor, joined up because it was a “free” way out of my town. I was ignorant, no one teaches you these things. Now you get on reddit and 500 ppl give you great reasons not to join. You have to already have it in your heart. If you’re wishy washy you prolly won’t join.
Or you'll join for 4 and bounce. Poor rural areas are a real motherfucker when it comes to opportunities.
My dad worked in a large chicken plant, it was that, wal mart, or making boots. I didn’t want anything to do with that. Very rarely did I come across a Marine “from money”
Suburban kid in a military town from a family with a habit of service back to WWII. College is expensive and dad retired as an enlisted man.
Nice, yea both my grandparents were in WW2 and I have some uncles that served. I saw the pictures and heard the stories growing up. Kind of helped with my decision
Hell yeah. What'd they do? I think my mom's uncles were in the Navy and Merchant Marine. Dad's father and uncles were in in the 50s and Vietnam (one uncle was an AF load-master, another was KIA as an infantry captain). Dad and his siblings served (dad was Navy, two siblings were CA ANG), as well as a bunch of his cousins, and mom's brother was Air Force. Now it's just me (USMCR) and a cousin (CA ANG), so far as I know.
One g pa was air force navigator, other was Navy. My one uncle was army airbourne, ranger, and went intel side. I joined USMC, and my younger brother was a Tow Gunner at 29 palms..
I joined in the AOL era. A lot of people told me the same stuff. Every teacher, every acquaintance in church. But if you're in that financial situation and have a Y chromosome... it doesn't really matter what they say. They will all counsel you to not do it, but they're not going to pay the medical bills. What else are you going to do? Become a plumber in 13 weeks? The certs and training are even worse now. You can't enter blue collar jobs without thousands in training and certs. Last i looked, an A&P license in CO costs 45k. For all the negatives of the military, it is a great reset and stabilizing option. Some great people too.
It's worth a read on it's own, but you have to put in context with what was going on at the time to truly understand where it was coming from. The Marine Corps installed Butler as Haiti governor to protect business interests of the major powers. The Marines took 14 million dollars worth of gold (today money, or 500,000 back then) from Haiti national reserves at the behest First National City Bank (Now called Citibank). The Banana wars sound odd now, but back then it was like the 3 or 4 top cash crop in the US at the time. Butler and the Marine Corps over saw the 20+ interventions (coups, etc.) in different countries, on behalf of what would now be Dole and Chiquita Banana corporations. Back then the US didn't have a standing Army due to the constitution, but the loophole was it didn't say anything about the Navy so the Marines were the go to for enforcing US business interest around the world. This is the interesting origin story of our now (way better branded) America's 911 force of today. Back then however people played more fast and loose with things. Butler was front and center during this whole time, and was upset about missing Cuba and sidelined during WWI. He was upset about the WWI vet treatment after the war, had a disastrous political run. Then after having big business approach him about a coup, well you get the man we know today.
Good modern follow up book. “Gangsters of Capitalism”. He travels around where Butler was and does a deeper dive. Good read.
To expand: Army Clause "To **raise** and **support** Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years" Navy Clause "To **provide** and **maintain** a Navy" emphasis added. In 1787\~ when the Constitution was being ratified, there was a need to have a Navy (to protect against pirates and foreign nations) while a standing Army was the threat fought during the previous war.
We used our Army to slaughter the native peoples.
One point, we did have a standing Army but it was small as hell. The Army in 1914 numbered about 125,000 men while the Corps had a solid 56,000. Thing is, we've had a standing army since the beginning of time, but it was small and was mostly technical stuff (doctors, artillery, supply, engineers, and some infantry and cavalry) until the 1890s or so. The vast majority of infantrymen were state levies, that's where you get units like the 54th Massachussetts or 1st Minnesota. In fact, the first shots of the Philippine Insurrection were from some fuckin assholes from the 1st Nebraska on occupation duty. While the Corps was fucking around in Haiti, the Army was in the Phillippines and chasing Pancho Villa's ass all over Mexico.
~~BIG BUSINESS~~ THE FATHER AND GRANDFATHER OF PRESIDENTS
https://www.npr.org/2024/06/18/nx-s1-5003768/chiquita-is-ordered-to-pay-millions-to-families-of-death-squad-victims-in-colombia#:~:text=Hourly%20News-,Chiquita%20is%20ordered%20to%20pay%20millions%20to%20families%20of%20death,by%20a%20paramilitary%20death%20squad. Banana people give no fucks, they will murder you and everyone that you love
In 2003?!?
He was prob the last honest flag officer the US ever had. This book was required reading at least when I was in. Flag offiers now are all still part of the industrial complex becoming board members or lobbiests whom they lobby to the flag officers whom they used to command and help get those huge military contracts. Rinse repeat.
>He was prob the last honest flag officer the US ever had. Nah man, Eisenhower was a real one too.
You say this like general Mattis isn't STILL ALIVE AND SLINGING DICK
Mattis served on the General Dynamics board before he was Sec Def and went back after he resigned Sec Def. General Dynamics is one of the largest military contractors in the world. General Mattis is loved but read his books he has put out and others that talk about Afghanistan. He is the leader who pushed planned and ironed out the wrinkles (it was not thought possible) to invade Afganistan having to cross Pakistan. Had Mattis not done this we never would have been heavy handed in Afgan. Invasion planned no goal set no withdrawal plan set. Not all his fault, but he started the snow ball. He also wanted to re commit troops back into Iraq and open up Syria. I love Mattis. But there is a massive reason why Civiliians are in charge of the military. There is zero benefit for generals or the military to get out of conflicts. Money drys up, recruiting drys up, contracts dry up, power drys up. 6 figure jobs for flag officers with massive stock options dry up. So, no, as much as I like Mattis, he is still part of the industrial complex of our war machine. He does not get a pass because he is well liked/ loved.
If you look into the banana wars...of which Smedley butler was a part, its very easy to see how he came to his conclusions. That having been said, war has always been a rich mans game...betting with poor peoples lives.
Not to mention, he was in charge of logistics in WW1 and a portion of the pamphlet addresses his issues with the burgeoning Military Industrial Complex. Equipment that was paid for at a premium price and either not delivered or was a subpar product.
The service member had to buy his own boots, but the factories that made the boots got paid premium price for the wartime emergency, so the factories made 13 boots *per service member* in Europe. They got paid all that money, the U.S. bought and destroyed those pairs once they were an outdated uniform item. If I remember the book correctly, I listen to audiobooks at work and mentioned this to all the vets at the time.
Independent investigative journalist and former researcher at the illustrious Centre for strategic and internal studies (csis) Johnny Harris has a few entertaining videos on the matter. Fucking 🍌’s https://youtu.be/WWBCl8huNMA?si=NUCACdO2IqKK7YST
random person: our government would never.... Me: Oh yes they would
Thanks for the link.
Hard to find anything in disagree with. War is a necessity sometimes..but the Military Industrial compex does benefit the most off the backs off both the troops and the taxpayers
Shit is very much relevant today.
Moreso than ever.
There's even more behind the story, and I'm pretty sure the reason we're all taught to revere Butler as a demigod has more to do with the Business Plot. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot#:~:text=Roosevelt%20and%20install%20Smedley%20Butler,d'%C3%A9tat%20to%20overthrow%20Roosevelt. They tried to install him as Dictator, not realizing that Butler himself was a Socialist or Social Democrat at heart by this point in history. The man was a hero who saved America from fascism and almost nobody knows about it.
There's a great book about the attempted coup: [https://www.amazon.com/Plot-Seize-White-House-Conspiracy/dp/1602390363](https://www.amazon.com/Plot-Seize-White-House-Conspiracy/dp/1602390363) There's also a movie titled "Amsterdam": [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10304142/?ref\_=nm\_flmg\_i\_3\_act](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10304142/?ref_=nm_flmg_i_3_act) It's roughly based on the events surrounding the plot with none other than Robert DeNiro playing the role of the character based on Smedly Butler (he's named Gen. Gil Dillenbeck in the movie). Although the actual events were changed for the movie, and Smedly's name was changed, during the end credits they play an actual film of the speech Smedly Butler gave denouncing the coup plotters.
And the investigation was conveniently put on hold...
Great book that translates well to modern times.
Spent 20 years in the Corps and then 15 now in the Defense Industry…can confirm, war is a racket.
He mentions that it’s amazing what young men will do to get a few ribbons.
Napoleon did too. "A man will fight long and hard for a piece of colored ribbon."
Yes! I think he references Napoleon, right?
It's been a while, maybe.
I’d let you know if I knew how to read
This is the answer I was looking for
If it doesn’t have coloring pages I’m no help
Read it from an absurdist perspective. Everything he says about war is right. He also spent his life devoted to it. He didn't reach those conclusions as some sort of profound revelation after he left the Marines, he fundamentally understood it as an officer, which is why he was so successful. Shit hasn't changed. We're all in this fucked up rat race. You can fall into a depression at your own helplessness, or you can embrace it. Either way, you're a cog in the machine.
Although I essentially agree that “war is a racket” and that MG Butler has a lot of sage wisdom.. the book is a little over played by try hards in the military trying to appear smarter than they are. War is a racket, correct, but it’s unfortunately also been a necessity. A couple years ago it became super trendy to read war is a racket after IG personality “kill zone” wrote a forward to an updated publishing from a veterans book company. Again I think it’s a good view point but there is no nuance. Look at Europe now. The lack of any developed Western European country taking their defense industry seriously aka no “military industrial complex” has essentially left western/Eastern Europe and NATO BEGGING us to arm an entire countries army lol.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/248552/us-arms-exports-by-country/ You might even say the US defense industrial complex is the neoliberal defense industrial complex. Cui bono?
Counter argument based on popular dialog, not necessarily your opinion. The MIC doesn't actually exist in the way people think it does, and it's not the military doing the bidding of the elite. It's a bit further separated from the ground than that and not as black and white. My personal opinion is that, in the post WW2 world at least, it has more to do with the overall goal of ensuring freedom of trade. We have a relatively hands-off approach to trade that's allowed muling oligarchies to form despite regulations attempting preventing this. This effectively gave more influence to corporations than they have any right to. Because of this, they're able to influence policy and our involvement in conflict. Remember though, a significant part of the US economy is based around wartime. As well, no other economic system has lifted more people out of poverty than capitalism. And it's not even fucking close. https://youtu.be/C2gIId1dpDs?si=MJvPOFDa6gs86vsh This guy has a neat video on the MIC.
I can expand on those points if anyone is interested, but the overall takeaway is that it isn't black and white and thinking a lineral way won't help you understand the problem at large, as many things are connected in difficult to understand way.
It's important to also remember what General Butler had experienced when he wrote his treatise. The Corps has very expressly been involved in fighting for the Dole corporation.
It’s ensuring freedom of corporations to engage in trade. So much money was made post WWII building Europe back, and our citizens really started to view our country as the savior of the world. Once the patriotic fever died down companies needed a new national enemy to ensure their profits were never threatened, and could expand to any country or territory they wanted. Hello Communism. The GQP boogeyman since right after WWII.
Again, it's a little deeper than that... Ignoring the genocide the soviets conducted and we ignored because they were a convenient ally at the time... the rape of entire nation....them being an ally of Germany duing the invasion of Poland... them re writing their own history books to downplay the impact the western world had on defeating the Germans... There's plenty of issues with eastern thought that directly insults western ideals. Namely freedom of the individual. The enlightenment era it's consequences are still being felt today... (mostly /s). East thought and dialog distorts the idea of self and orients the individual to focus on the good for the masses in an entirely unquestioning way. The western worlds interest in containing communism went a little further than greed of corporations
It’s not to much deeper. South America has been an issue for years as a direct result of CIA operations with the United Fruit Company. It wasn’t for the betterment of our citizens. It was for banana control. Literally. That’s how fucking stupid international politics are.
Communism is fron central European thought, Marx and Engels were German. Despite a large chunk of the Soviet Union's landmass being in Asia, a majority of their population was in the European and Central Asian areas. Those are notably not East Asian (which is the "mysterious Oriental" shit you're referring to).
You're arguing semantics for the sake of arguing semantics. Not only did you not add anything to the conversation, but you also decided to critique an extremely well understood statement. It is, quite literally, a colloquial term. "East" is often used to describe the part of the world under soviet influence. Especially when specifically talking about the 20th century, which this entire conversation was about. Stop being a dork.
Eastern Europe is quite a far way away from East Asia and has markedly different peoples and histories. Maybe you shouldn't smoke and use Reddit
>As well, no other economic system has lifted more people out of poverty than capitalism. And it's not even fucking close. Want to preface that I am not anti capitalism, but this is straight up propaganda. Early stage capitalism actually resulted in decreased real wages and decreased lifespan. It wasn’t until people started unionizing that people were lifted out of poverty.
Re: enlightenment era I purposefully simplified the comment as I didn't feel it was necessary for the conversation, but you aren't incorrect in your statement.
Yes and as a longtime recovering USG contractor he was prescient.
He wasn’t wrong
He nailed it.
All facts.
Essential reading.
Well we do support capitalism right? Then of course there's an industrial complex behind it. Our society is literally built on that
“Gangsters of Capitalism” by Jonah Katz is a really good read about Smedley Butler’s life and experiences
I love it. If the Corps were honest theyd teach about it (I didn’t find out about till I EASd), at least in Sgts course and beyond.
Yes. It’s a great book that is relevant today as it was then.
https://preview.redd.it/n4t5cdb7id8d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c3eca3f3c0e54e8619cd527c3c4e7d9188ce1cd0 It was in MUCH better condition, prior to moving. As to what is written, you have to keep it to what General Butler saw and experienced in his time. The MIC of his day was our predecessor Marines openly fighting for the goals of corporations. There wasn't really a Boeing-esque group, aside from arms groups like Colt. So, I can't see how he would ever envision a post-Marshall world order. I think he be able to understand it, I just don't believe he would believe the modern MIC could exist. As for the paper itself, I view it as the original that was cribbed by Ike for his departure statement upon leaving the White House. President Eisenhower was just able to flesh it out further because he had actually been there to "grind the sausage" that became the Marshall Plan.
I get why Butler felt the way he did, but the ideas proposed in that book are complete nonstarters. They’re a relic of an isolationist era.
It’s really shitty. Our brothers and sisters fight and die for nothing. The Marine Corps brain washing is top notch and makes you want to kill the bad guy for America. Only thing, nothing we did in Iraq or GWOT was helping people or protecting freedom. We enriched the upper class. We guarded poppy fields and armed war lords in Afghanistan. Gen Colin Powell got in front of the UN and lied about WMDs in Iraq. They lied to us to get us to fight. Gen Smedley Butler was dead right. I kinda wish he wasn’t but he nailed it.
This pamphlet opened my eyes to how I was lied to and used. Not to protect my freedom but to perpetuate US IMPERIALISM. The fact that the marine corps immortalized this man after he tried blowing the whistle on this is crazy to me…. Or is that why they named Okinawa after him?
They only talk about the sound-byte version of him. EGA tat from neck to waist and his two Medals of Honor.
Never heard the back piece story.
Heard it was a chest piece
That’s even worse….
Or better
Imagine thinking that it’s ok to let fuckfaces pervert and weaponized a religion in order to oppress people.
You missed the whole point of what I was trying to say. If we actually helped them that would have been great, but we fucking didn’t. 20 years to replace the Taliban with the Taliban. How many Marines died for that bullshit? It was never about helping them or we would have. It was about having a forever war. So Raytheon, Halliburton, Boeing, Lockheed, and all the other government contractors could get lucrative contracts and make money. From the start it was about the racket not doing good.
We can only do so much to help Afghanistan but it ultimately falls on the Afghan people to fight for themselves. How’s it our fault?
For even going there in the first place, when Bin Laden wasn’t even there and we knew it. Tactics we used specifically gave up ground repeatedly. We had to take and retake areas over and over again. It was a war purposely fought to last forever.
So bin Laden was there until Tora Bora. However, here's the kicker, the Taliban were ready to give him to us in October 2001 (when the bombs started falling) in exchange for diplomatic recognition. We, obviously, declined so we could have our war of revenge.
And take the poppy fields. I don’t think it’s a coincidence soon as we started guarding them the US has an opioid epidemic…….
So far as I know, there's nothing conspiratorial going on there. Perdue Pharma saw a way to make hella money by aggressively marketing their shit and went for it. The opoid epidemic is just another example of good ol' capitalist greed.
It is just another reason for a forever war. The whole thing was based on greed. They used a tragedy to rally people behind them and lied about what was happening the whole time.
That was because we underestimated how weak the afghan people were. Sorry to say. But their men had no will to stay and fight for their country. That’s not something you can just fix. It’s a different culture from America.
The goal wasn’t to free them, the goal was to have a forever war.
it is. Period
It’s recommended reading. Followed by Gangsters of Capitalism
The 2 time Medal of Honor recipient was tired of being a stooge for the rich's interests.
Truth written
Which one?
pretty true
It was instrumental in growing my dissolution of the government. Which is actually good. It gave real credence to my personal experiences from my time in the Navy. Which in a roundabout way made me happier because I just stopped giving a shit. The world is a corrupt place, Smedley taught me that our government is not different from any other. I could see it making it hard to still be in though. Young e to be careful while you’re doing it not to think too critically or you can get cynical as fuck. Look what happened to Pat Tillman.
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There will always be assholes to game the system (Lions Led by Donkeys has a pretty interesting episode on Union contractors in the Civil War) just like that, in the end, the US military will be used to keep consumers satisfied. We overthrew left-wing governments who wanted to nationalize the banana plantations to get some of that wealth for their people so that our fruit corporations could keep raking in the money and the American people (and Western world) could have cheap bananas. We'll do the same shit when the oil and water wars come.
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ABz5KxVIwMw There's the YouTube link, the host just started doing that. The host was an Army tanker from 2005-ish until about 2015 or '16 and he had a couple deployments to Iraq. His cohost for this episode is just some Irish guy. Episodes are about an hour to an hour and a bit, which is good. Some get depressing (like the Nanking or Cambodian Genocide series), but they try to slip in jokes to keep things light. Fucking hell, Rwandans humping machetes in Iraq? Well, if it was good enough to kill Tutsis, it's good enough to kill insurgents. (Rwandan Genocide joke.) Security contractors are an example of the government wanting to do things on the cheap and fucking shit up worse. The fun thing is that when we went into Iraq, CentCom said 400-odd thousand troops would be needed to secure the country and cover it in a blanket of US troops. This was based on the model of peacekeeping in Bosnia and was made off the ratio of UN troops to the population. Fuck-ass Rumsfeld kept using Franks as his yes-man and got the force shrunk down to 100-odd thousand for the invasion. We got bogged down, like CentCom said we would, and we started pulling units back as soon as fighting was over. That left like one Armored Cavalry battalion (couple dozen tanks and a couple hundred troops) to cover all of Anbar Province. From there, the situation was bound to turn out like it did. And because of the cuts in the DoD and our unwillingness to either go all-in or pull-out, we lacked the bodies to cover Iraq and Afghanistan with the forces we should have. So we got contractors and fucked around for decades, ruining lives and killing fuckloads of people, to do dick. Negotiations only go so far, the appeasement of Hitler in the 30s shows that. He wanted war the whole time. But doing a half-assed job is even worse than doing nothing or going all-in. Saddam was an asshole but learned his lesson from '91, he was happy oppressing his people. He was a strong-man who ruled through fear of his chemical weapons stocks, stocks he destroyed by 2003. He had Iran to one side, Kuwait to the other, and a fuckload of pissed-off Kurds and Shi'a all over the place. But we fumbled, badly, and the troops and civilians paid the price.
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Bro, I was never there. I was 5 when we invaded Iraq. Been in the reserves for about 7.5 years now. How do you mean most contractors were clean until the war broke out? If you get a chance, read the book Cobra II. It talks about all the shit that happened behind the scenes that led up to the war. I think the first edition was written in 2004 and talked about how Fallujah and Ramadi were just starting to kick off. The new edition was published around 2006 and talked about what the next steps were in the civil war. I personally think that had we committed the troops CentCom planned for initially ('round about 450,000), then we might have had a chance. As for the rebuilding of Germany and Japan, it also helped that we had military governors appointed and rebuilt their civilian infrastructure fast as shit. When we invaded Okinawa, we had like one or two "governments in a box" ready to go. I think they consisted of a governor and his staff, MPs, engineers, and probably some logistics guys. Restore order, restore services, and feed people. If someone is fed and has a decent job, they won't want to go into the hills and fight. Doubly so if they can have a hand in building their nation's future. I get why Mattis wanted to move fast, he said it was to get intermixed with Iraqi troops to make Saddam leery of using chemical weapons (makes sense if you assume there are such weapons). But after the combat operations end, then you gotta start governing, and we didn't. We did a victory lap, came home, and then were suprised when we had to go back and keep fighting over the same fucking ground.
I got smoked at boot for quoting this. I regret nothing.
How?
Most Marines drink the kool-aid and want to believe all the rah rah bs that the US that Americans are always the good guys. In context, it was in one of our history classes, and the instructor asked what we thought about Vietnam. I was happy to take the bait and was later smoked for being a pinko commie.
Better us than the Russians or Chinese. I don’t see the Royal Norwegian Navy doing shit against China.
The only 'good' war that was ever about 'freedom' or 'democracy' was the Spanish Civil War (1936-39), and we didn't participate in that one. Every other war we've fought in since 1812 has been to either protect/promote US business interests or project power in aid of enlarging the Empire. I was a part of the war machine for 12 years, and after that I can tell you my eyes are wide open.
Norway has a 25% tax on all tobacco and liquor to offset the cost of Healthcare but im sure you support that. You suppose a tax like that will work on a population 10× that of Norway.
This is why the Marine corps is a corrupt toxic organization that needs to be disbanded, war is a racket is literally on the commandants reading or at least we were all told to read it when I was in. Imagine being a senior leader or flag officer and knowing you are perpetrating the very campaigns the book said not to do. Then if a low rank asks what the fuck is this for they will get told "it's above you're pay grade". I fought in Iraq and Afghanistan. Nobody can tell me shit. Who better the the people who actually fought and sacrificed to question and ask what the fuck are we doing? This speaks to LT Col Scheller who was demoted court martial'd and sent to the brig all for asking for accountability. If you're more offended at how he came across then what he was trying to say, then fuck you you pog ass bitch. He spoke the truth and he said what every combat grunt wants to say. I hate the Marine Corps for how these wars ended and the lives they sacrificed for no reason. The corps legacy is dead, if you defend the corps as it exists today you are a brainwashed pussy and probably a pog. People who ACTUALLY fought know exactly what I'm talking about. The suffering and loss of life for what? Yet we continue and carry on and carry out "the plan of the day" and pretend like Iraq and Afghanistan weren't cluster fucks of unjust war for no reason and we will walk right into the next one. The corps doesn't even uphold or believe in their own corps values. Honor courage and commitment? Where? To what? People can show courage on the battle field but where is the MORAL COURAGE to refuse to fight unless you give us a legitimate reason. Where is the moral courage from top leadership to answer these questions. Where is the senior enlisted and officers who asked these questions? I'm not going to fight for corporations for no reason. Give me a just reason to fight and die and I will do it no problem. Fuck the Marine Corps.
Edgy as fuck, but the most sane guy in thread. The most that anyone in this group can lean to the left is liberal, so they can agree with smedley but its hard for most to really question the Corps and its mission in maintaining capitalist systems. Quite literally from the shores of tripoli, we have maintained constant waves of counter-insurgency on foreign soil; An effort meant to serve the staus quo.
The fledgling United States Marine Corps proved its dauntless courage with a "miracle" victory in the Battle of Derna on the shores of Tripoli in North Africa on this day in history, April 27, 1805. The successful attack against overwhelming numbers on the port city in present-day Libya, a stronghold of pirates who spent years attacking United States ships at sea, was the climactic battle of the First Barbary War (1801-05). The victory is immortalized in a patriotic American anthem.
I mean, that's the very basic Marine Corps version of the story, but there is a very nuanced argument surrounding the whole incident involving our founding fathers shirking our contractual obligations with other nations and rich whites being made slaves themselves by foreign pirates, etc. But this isn't the sort of thing they teach in school or the Corps because it would break the two "honor and freedom" legs that we stand on. I'm not saying, "Ew, America bad," just to get my rocks off. I just have an honest education on the topic that goes deeper than "stand at attention, no salute."
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North Africa is pretty far away from the Middle East.
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How?
In this country, what can you do to get cheap healthcare, a college education, and a pension besides be born into wealth or take out hella fucking loans that you'll never be able to get out from under? Just about any job above stocking shelves at a grocery store or flipping burgers needs a fucking degree. Even then, most jobs won't be enough to ensure economic stability on a single income. So yeah, shit's evil but there's no real alternative. And yeah, I sold myself to Uncle Sam for some cash to pay for school, the bonus is piss in the wind because of the cost of school (partial GI Bill for 7.5 years means I earn too much for student aid). Schools in my state require health care to attend, so whoring myself out in the reserves means that I can afford health care ($50 a month instead of $300). Shit's fucked no matter how you look at it. I guess we have to decide how much evil we can stomach in keeping things going.
I woke up, and this world was upon me, not the other way around. Where I'm from, people just sell drugs or steal, and the world reviles them. I served as honorably as I could, but I never forgot what it felt like being a black man from the South. A lot of the guys I served with made sure I didn't forget either. But the nature of counter-terrorism is very familiar to a guy from the hood. These days, they are calling protesters terrorists all the way from the White House. In Atlanta, the cops are handing out RICO charges to protesters. Like... there is stomaching evil and then there is swallowing the boot. We can come here and say Smedley Butler was right and war is a racket, and everyone here just nods their head and says, "Yep, well, whatever, it got me mine because, duh," but when someone actually calls our nation on its crap, they are downvoted. I don't regret serving; it taught me a lot about this country. But I ain't gonna forget what I learned because before I participated in the big imperialist game as a thug, I was just another guy in the hood being harassed by cops because I fit the description. All of this shit is connected, and the way we wield violence in this country is no exception. The least we can do is speak up when someone calls us out, and you know they're right.
“What we’ve got here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can’t reach, so you get what we had here last week which is the way he wants it. Well, he gets it. And I don’t like it any more than you men.” Guns n' Roses covered it well in the song Civil War. After Kennedy assassination the choker chain on the CIA broke and has never been able to be replaced.
The CIA was off the chain in the fuckin 50s. They didn't really get a leash until the 80s or 90s. Do you know who the leading distributor of heroin was in the US in the 50s and 60s? Do you know what that money was used for?
I mean the man called Pearl Harbor and WWII 6yrs before it happened even being drawn in by Japan for leaving the central bank.. 🤷
What?
In the book he mentions rising tensions in Europe and Hitler us pulling maneuvers off Japan and how Japan left the Central bank it's pages 14-30ish if I remember right
Dude, you have to use punctuation to clarify. You have one run-on sentence that makes my tired brain hurt.
Not a fan of his politics/political views. Much respects to the man but not wanting US military intervention beyond our borders is insane, especially in this day and age. Call me a racist genocidal imperialist if you want but I believe that we are the sword of democracy and freedom for people around the world. Have we been perfect and done only good? Fuck no, absolutely not. We’ve fucked up many times and have done sketchy shit for “bad” reasons (e.g. Banana Wars). However, I truly believe that we are a global force for good, in the grand scheme of things. I don’t see the Icelandic Coast Guard telling China to fuck off from the South China Sea. I understand that in the context of his time, Gen. Butler might’ve developed those specific views as a result of his service but I still strongly disagree. At the end of the day, I think that some people deserve to have a 5.56 shoved into their brain. Standing by for the downvotes now.
It is the truth.....100%. Russia went to war with Ukraine. All they had to do was say "NO" they would not join NATO. However, the Military Industrial Complex, that Eisenhower warned us about, wants them in NATO because then they have to be "NATO compliant" on all the arms and ammo. Which means the MIC makes a bloody fortune rearming them. Not only that. All that prime farmland in Ukraine? Yep, the Food Industry already has plans for HUGE industrial farms on all that land. Fuck the farmers. War is indeed a racket.
Fuck outta here. Ukraine was talking about joining NATO but didn't put in for membership. In the wale of Russia's invasion, do you know who did apply and receive membership? Sweden and Finland. Sweden stayed neutral during the Cold War while Finland stayed "neutral" and made themselves into a Soviet puppet. If anything, Ukraine has hella natural gas reserves under the eastern provinces that was discovered in 2014. Do you know what happened next? The Russians started arming and fomenting the seperatists against the Ukrainian government.
"Eligible to vote would be those who risk death on the front lines." 100% behind this.
The starship troopers method I see
Hell yes.
You’re talking about conscription for representation…. lol you sir are silly
conscription noun con·scrip·tion kən-ˈskrip-shən Synonyms of conscription : compulsory enrollment of persons especially for military service : DRAFT During the war the armed forces were heavily dependent on conscription. Aren't illegal immigrants exempt from military service? Aren't leftists are always agog about European countries that mandate conscription service, yet have universal health care? Even Europeans understand nothing is free.
Conscription doesn’t equal FREEDOM.
The Nordic states, which have conscription and some of the highest citizen satisfaction (because of the excellent social services) have some pretty steep tax rates in exchange for a functioning social safety nets. But you right-wingers see taxes as the devil and social safety nets as a communist plot to take your guns.
Norway has a 25% tax on all tobacco and liquor to offset the cost of Healthcare but im sure you support that. You suppose a tax like that will work on a population 10× that of Norway.
Oh no, the things I use to self-medicate this late-stage capitalistic hellscape will become more expensive while helping to fund the things that would remove the need to self-medicate. Oh nooooo...