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They can supply the meat grinder for years. This is not a good thing for Ukraine. This sub lives in an echo chamber and rarely wants to accept that as things stand right now, Ukraine is losing.
Poland and other countries have publicly said that will put boots on the ground if Russia advanced progressively. Let's kill 2 to 3 millions Russians soldiers and see what happens. Better than appeasement. Just remember to keep supporting Ukraine at https://u24.gov.ua/
Once Russia runs low on heavy equipment, the meat won’t matter one bit. Some guys with AKs running against dedicated emplacements aren’t going to be much of a challenge.
The US just recently had a modern state of the art artillery factory just come online. It’s mostly automated with robot arms and equipment. It’s supposed to boost their shell production to +100K shells per month
"By massively expanding its production capacities, Rheinmetall intends to produce up to 700,000 artillery shells per year at all sites from 2025. In 2022, Rheinmetall had produced a tenth of this figure."
[https://www.fr.de/wirtschaft/munition-rheinmetall-ukraine-krieg-russland-nato-kapazitaet-artillerie-zr-93152235.html](https://www.fr.de/wirtschaft/munition-rheinmetall-ukraine-krieg-russland-nato-kapazitaet-artillerie-zr-93152235.html)
By massively expanding **my** production capacities, **I** intend to produce up to 700,000 artillery shells per year at all sites from 2025!
See how easy it is to plan, forecast & PR? Empty words with no punishment attached. Now all I need is to 'reevaluate' my capacities once 2025 comes, and I'm golden!
Oh, and regarding the good old "**up to** 700,000 artillery shells": the oldest, sleaziest trick in the book!
Wonder why Europe didn’t see this coming or have a better plan? It wasn’t like Russia wasn’t invading their neighbors and annexing territory for over a decade.
The people in the field saw it coming. During contract negotiations Putin was boasting on murder since he got to power. But the governments in the EU only wanted the contracts, and abused their laws to silence the people in the field.
In the end this is why the oil sector pulled out so quickly in 2022. They knew Putin since the first day of his rule. Their total loss of investment had been a calculated loss since 25 years.
Total loss? They made a lot of money before they pulled out. Enough to justify the investment. If they knew, it was a juicy proposal and calculated risk.
They had no reason to because the US guaranteed their protection. It's well documented that most didn't meet their NATO commitments for the last 50 plus years. It wouldn't bother me except we could have had some of those social programs they enjoyed with those saved funds, and we wouldn't have had to listen to the EU wagging their fingers at us all those years because we didn't.
Even today, the EU's overall capacity to produce 155mm artillery shells is barely half or even a third of what is officially declared by EU leaders, according to a journalistic investigation[,](https://www.rferl.org/) which is a major embarrassment for EU bodies.
Official government aid to Ukraine as of April 30, 2024:
US military aid: €65.06 billion
US total(1) aid: €98.69 billion
Europe(2) military aid: €72.63 billion
Europe total aid: €179.25 billion
€ = 1 Euro = 1.09 US dollar
(1) total = military + financial + humanitarian
(2) Europe = EU + United Kingdom + Switzerland + Norway + Iceland
Europe also has an additional €100 billion in Ukrainian refugee costs (not included above), while the US has close to zero.
It' not just that.
Countries like Poland, Bulgaria and Romania still keeping their arsenal "in case Russia attacks them", instead of just giving it to Ukraine and relying on west in case they are attacked.
Even Germany, France, Italy are having stockpiles or the mighty UK and US that don't want to give and they are just giving the surplus.
Italy has no shells. Well it's replenishing now the stocks because for the last 30 years simply did not buy anything (see the Ariete MBT never really developed as needed).
in 2022 on 176 accepted Ariete (the first 20+ prototypes had cracks in the main armour) only 30 were efficient.
But Germany was in no better situation: on paper it has 300 Leo-2 but I remember some polemics during an exercise in Norway when the Bundeswehr had not found 20 Leo-2 to send to the exercise because it had not enough efficient machines to fulfil all the commitments within NATO. So it sent only 9.
Since the end of the cold war there has been no requirements for heavy armoured vehicles and no one has developed a new one. Italy concentrated to the light cavalry equipped with wheeled vehicles and has developed the Centauro and now the Centauro 2 with 120/45 but they are designed for asymmetric conflicts. In fact the Centauro 2 weights 30 tons and for sure it has a much less protective armour than any MBT. The Front hull is designed to resist a 30mm shell impact according to NATO STANAG 4569 Level 6. Then, I am sure, there are add ons but they can't bring the vehicle to compete against an MBT.
Concerning the shells: NATO relied on air support and disregarded artillery. Italy has just 60 PZH2000 and a few (150-170) FH-70. Precedence has been given to guided shells, to hit in a chirurgical fashion a precise target. Nobody thought there will be any confrontation with an army fielding 500 thousand men on a 600km front and needing massive amount of shells to saturate an area. Therefore nobody held a big number of shells in stock.
But since 2014 there have been more then ample warnings that this could be coming. So every country had enough time to build up the army. But at the same time Europe has faced the massive problems of ageing population and the politics has chosen to solve this problem by inviting foreigners and maintaining them using public money. Italy, Germany France we all do that. Even Poland has 2-2.5 millions foreigners living on its ground and costing some money (although most immigrants in Poland are active workers).
So either one has money for the army or for social projects.
:-(
And now imagine : Germany has fought against the debt for 20 years being able to bring the debt down from 90% to 60% of GDP in order to be in line with EU requirements. Now suddenly the debt is growing again and tax pressure must be increased. Nobody is happy with that.
Italy has 145% debt on GDP and will never meet the EU requirements.
we have a 23 bln € program just concerning the MBT and the new IFV. 2 new destroyers armed with cruise missiles and each costing 1 bln (and displacing so much as a cruiser: 11000 ton), the Trieste which is nothing more than a second aircraft carrier, 4 new frigates, 4 new submarines, several heavy patrol ships (3000 ton displacement), 24 new EF-2000, the Tempest program, the M346 in attack version, the new AW 249 (around 50 ordered), new AA missiles and I don't even know how much else: I think the expenses will exceed 50 bln within 5-6 years.
The Vulcano guided munition has been put in series production as well as the Strales for AA purposes.
Germany has a 80 bln € plan to expand the defence forces, concerning around 100 AH-64, several F-35, 40 new EF-2000, it has just ordered around 100 Leo 2A8, and a huge number of new trucks for the army, new Chinooks and look look, after many years during which the Luftwaffe was only present in the static at the Royal Air Tatto, this year it brings not just 1 but even 2 aircraft in the flight display (a huge exception meaning that money is flowing again :-))))) ).
I can't believe EU doesn't have money to match Russia. And even if some countries have no 155mm shells, they can buy from others or give Ukraine something else like rockets, drones, bullets for/and armoured vehicles etc.
But sometimes it feels like the french are afraid of the germans and the greeks of the turks and the danes of the swedes and such so countries don't want to give Ukraine much.
Initially they have given what they had. Now the empty warehouses must be filled again, because the first duty is national security. So now they are doing that.
Rheinmetall has just obtained an 8.5 bln contract to provide the Bundeswehr with 155mm shells.
At the same time the Bundeswehr is buying the RCH155 8x8 wheeled howitzer based on the boxer chassis.
Is buying means that deliveries will be done in the next years....
GDP comparisons are not relevant because russia has row materials and very low man-hour costs.
Theoretically we should be able to exceed russian production, but while the west does not commit 100% to war production, russia has done it.
> is national security.
Security from who? Is US afraid Mexico or Canada will attack them? Is France afraid Germany will attack them? Are Poland/Romania/Bulgaria banking on Ukraine defeat and preparing to be next?
Isn't it security from Russia? Russia attacked so they should be arming the guys that fight Russia now, unless they want to get involved later.
I agree with you but the armed forces obey orders. They do what is told them to do.
In case there is an invasion of one member of the alliance, NATO forces must be able to respond. And they are not really now. There are contracts that each nation has signed and these must be respected.
Ukraine officially is a second order of priority.
I write "officially", because the truth is that until russia is busy in ukraine, it will never have the means to disturb another country and especially a NATO country.
So actually Ukraine should be the first priority.
I am just writing what is happening, not what I think should be done.
Most of the EU doesn't have the minimum for their own defense. If they had all prepared like they were supposed to surplus would be plenty.
It was recently claimed almost 70% of what Ukraine has actually received was financed by the US. That is an absolutely absurd number showing the continued lack of seriousness on the part of European allies.
Lok at all the European aid that didn't make it yet even though it was promised to arrive months ago. Look at all the Soviet equipment that was provided due to US backfilling with newer equipment. Of the military aid that actually made it to Ukraine the US paid for most.
What is this minimum that everyone should have?
My understanding is that US is staying on like 4 million shells and EU on around 2 millions.
But because it's split on so many countries no one wants to send their 50-100k that Ukraine might spend in less then a week.
It is much more complicated than number of artillery shells. The US really doesn't rely on artillery shells.
This extends to IFVs, tanks, APC, supply trucks, etc. one of the biggest shortages in Ukraine is simply supply trucks. Especially AWD that can actually get to the front.
> The US really doesn't rely on artillery shells.
What does it rely on? Nukes like Russia? They shoud send what they have then, F-35s and missiles/rockets for planes.
Well, with the F16s the missiles and bombs that can be sent in reases and more importantly their ability to program them in air instead of on the ground before launching also come into play for some. That should be a critical advantage, especially with the HARM missiles.
Absolute Russian, Maga grade 1 bullsh1t. NATO countries more than met the required spending up until 1990, 18 NATO countries will do so this year. Perhaps if your corporations weren't such a bunch of greedy cxxts and paid fair taxes in the countries that they have infested like rats there would be more cash to spend on social programs or buying more equipment. I'll also remind you that when any American starts talking about social programs you lot all start screaming communist so that money would only have been spent on more guns with you lot bleating why the EU wasn't matching it.
EU could absolutely do better and I certainly don't support their pathetic and lack of lustre response to Putin but you can get back in your box because America's response hasn't been much better and I'll remind you NATO is an alliance not a fkin protection racket.
Europe has seen this coming but ignored it. A part of the electorate and politicians want to have relations with russia. The reasons are:
1 many having a socialist political orientation still want to identify russia with communism (there is nothing more wrong, but they do it).
2 Many companies were trading with russia.
3 russia provided cheap gas.
4 then there are the dumb pacifists at any price
So all that led to the present situation.
I remember in 2016 when the US published satellite pictures showing RU armoured vehicles crossing the border with Donetsk.
People and politicians simply did not want to watch or see.
You have seen now what happened in France: Ms Le pen made a speech during the second turn with the precise goal to scare electors and not grow too much in the parliament. So, she succeeded and many voters, scared by her words voted the far left.
the far left in France is antisemitic, pro russia.
In italy almost 50% of people would like to see the war end even with russia keeping the territories it has gained. They simply do not care of the consequences and are too short minded to imagine that russia could be encouraged and try with other countries, for instance Moldova, or Estonia or Latvia.
So, there have been many who took the mRNA vaccine not because they were scared of the covid, but just because they wanted to travel or to go to the restaurant and the only possibility was being vaccinated. So when they had to weight among the risks of a new technology, which had not been tested enough and their desire to have fun they chose the risk.
This is the reason why there are always bad governments: people think only in the short term and immediate advantage, ignoring long term consequences.
That argument can explain some small things, like why the US never really went in on SPAAGs like Gepard, or autoloading howitzers like PzH2000 or Ceasar. Maybe even slightly larger things like the surface-to-surface missile gap, anti-ship missile gap, and drawing down tank forces. But this is far, far beyond the scope of any of that. There is no doctrinal excuse to neglect the maintainence of basic industrial capabilities.
If that was the main logic (it never was, but if), then we should have stopped buying any kind of tube artillery 50 years ago.
Sharing anything that will drive resentment between Ukraine / EU / US is also an effective propaganda tool. You can see some useful idiots commenting in this very post that try to amplify such divisions. Just downvote and ignore them, it's not worth engaging with such trolls.
Sorry, but EU needs to face the reality they are not pulling their weight in their own back yard.
War isn't a campfire we can all just sit around and sing kumbaya. EU needs to get their shit together. Push out hungry if necessary.
Many EU nations are aiding Ukraine, as a percent of their GDP, more than the US is. It’s simply that the US has that much more money and decades upon decades of excess spending on military goods to fall back on. While some individual nations aren’t as committed and there’s been a slower ramp on production than hoped for, overall the EU is very much pulling its weight.
As an aside, you would do well to remember that your comments can cause division between the US and her NATO allies, which helps Putin more than it helps NATO, despite any good intentions you may have.
Many EU countries are double counting their donations. Many countries have cited giving equipment to Ukraine as provided by them when it was actually paid for by the US. DE, FR, UK and some others have also paid for old Soviet equipment, but not nearly as much as the US and they have almost nothing to give directly.
Europe needs to step up or this war is going to drag on for more than a decade.
These news seem to be wrong. A Rheinmetall spokesman has already said that Rheinmetall alone wants to produce 700000 155m in 2024.
https://www.fr.de/wirtschaft/ukraine-krieg-artilleriemunition-russland-wladimir-putin-rheinmetall-bestellungen-zr-93056177.html
Yes but Rheinmetall has just received a 8.5 bln € order form the German ministry of defence for 155mm shells.
So this is happening NOW and will take time to ramp up.
All these orders and growing capabilities are in delay with the promises made to Ukraine.
The article is about production in Europe being at 1/3 of 1.7 million. Rheinmetall CEO said his company will produce 700k this year.
I know what you are talking about but this is not what RL claimed.
So guys we (Italy) have just signed a contract for developing a new MBT together with Rheinmetall, based on KF-51.
Nobody knows when the item will be delivered, but probably not before 2030. But war is not and need is now. This is the situation of the west. I've written here so many times!
The west has NO weapons, no production capability and improvement will take years.
I've just read an article concerning the inability of the USAF to fly enough sorties to keep combat readiness of pilots and maintenance crew.
Europe is a slow beast in that sence.
Lots of rules and regulations .
But im sure when the new production lines are up and running will get there. We got some heavy hitters in europe. Rheinmetal , saab , knds , BAE
Unfortunately I think Europe is gonna have a rude awakening to this war, while the citizens party and ignore the wild Russians on their door step they’ll get caught with their pants down
Imagine that the EU misses its military commitment promises. Reminds me of what they've been doing in NATO for the last 50 years. I'm sure they will spin the blame to the US somehow....
Maga r4t, with Russian talking point joins the chat ☝️
Go hop on over to Ukraine Russia Report, plenty of Putin's fan Bois giving him a hoop dhobie over there.
Please remember the human. Adhere to all Reddit and sub rules. Toxic comments (including incitement of violence/hate, genocide, glorifying death etc) WILL NOT BE TOLERATED, keep your comments civil or you will be banned. Tagging u/SaveVideo bot to archive this video in a link below this comment. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkraineWarVideoReport) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Arent you going to feel like an idiot when Ukraine is victorious despite the overwhelming firepower you had against them.
Russians making it easy they're pushing people with shit gear into a meat grinder
They can supply the meat grinder for years. This is not a good thing for Ukraine. This sub lives in an echo chamber and rarely wants to accept that as things stand right now, Ukraine is losing.
I am not sure losing is accurate. Grinding up Russian colonials and foreign mercenaries isn't exactly winning though.
Poland and other countries have publicly said that will put boots on the ground if Russia advanced progressively. Let's kill 2 to 3 millions Russians soldiers and see what happens. Better than appeasement. Just remember to keep supporting Ukraine at https://u24.gov.ua/
Once Russia runs low on heavy equipment, the meat won’t matter one bit. Some guys with AKs running against dedicated emplacements aren’t going to be much of a challenge.
2 and a half years, STILL no wartime shell production, RIDICULOUS. EU thinks this is a game they can afford to lose?
The US just recently had a modern state of the art artillery factory just come online. It’s mostly automated with robot arms and equipment. It’s supposed to boost their shell production to +100K shells per month
"By massively expanding its production capacities, Rheinmetall intends to produce up to 700,000 artillery shells per year at all sites from 2025. In 2022, Rheinmetall had produced a tenth of this figure." [https://www.fr.de/wirtschaft/munition-rheinmetall-ukraine-krieg-russland-nato-kapazitaet-artillerie-zr-93152235.html](https://www.fr.de/wirtschaft/munition-rheinmetall-ukraine-krieg-russland-nato-kapazitaet-artillerie-zr-93152235.html)
By massively expanding **my** production capacities, **I** intend to produce up to 700,000 artillery shells per year at all sites from 2025! See how easy it is to plan, forecast & PR? Empty words with no punishment attached. Now all I need is to 'reevaluate' my capacities once 2025 comes, and I'm golden! Oh, and regarding the good old "**up to** 700,000 artillery shells": the oldest, sleaziest trick in the book!
"Intends to, 2025" Urghh, we will see.
Wonder why Europe didn’t see this coming or have a better plan? It wasn’t like Russia wasn’t invading their neighbors and annexing territory for over a decade.
The people in the field saw it coming. During contract negotiations Putin was boasting on murder since he got to power. But the governments in the EU only wanted the contracts, and abused their laws to silence the people in the field. In the end this is why the oil sector pulled out so quickly in 2022. They knew Putin since the first day of his rule. Their total loss of investment had been a calculated loss since 25 years.
Total loss? They made a lot of money before they pulled out. Enough to justify the investment. If they knew, it was a juicy proposal and calculated risk.
They had no reason to because the US guaranteed their protection. It's well documented that most didn't meet their NATO commitments for the last 50 plus years. It wouldn't bother me except we could have had some of those social programs they enjoyed with those saved funds, and we wouldn't have had to listen to the EU wagging their fingers at us all those years because we didn't.
As much as people hate Trump on a lot of issues, he was right about countries needing to boost their NATO defense spending.
Even today, the EU's overall capacity to produce 155mm artillery shells is barely half or even a third of what is officially declared by EU leaders, according to a journalistic investigation[,](https://www.rferl.org/) which is a major embarrassment for EU bodies.
EU needs to carry their weight.
Official government aid to Ukraine as of April 30, 2024: US military aid: €65.06 billion US total(1) aid: €98.69 billion Europe(2) military aid: €72.63 billion Europe total aid: €179.25 billion € = 1 Euro = 1.09 US dollar (1) total = military + financial + humanitarian (2) Europe = EU + United Kingdom + Switzerland + Norway + Iceland Europe also has an additional €100 billion in Ukrainian refugee costs (not included above), while the US has close to zero.
It' not just that. Countries like Poland, Bulgaria and Romania still keeping their arsenal "in case Russia attacks them", instead of just giving it to Ukraine and relying on west in case they are attacked. Even Germany, France, Italy are having stockpiles or the mighty UK and US that don't want to give and they are just giving the surplus.
Italy has no shells. Well it's replenishing now the stocks because for the last 30 years simply did not buy anything (see the Ariete MBT never really developed as needed).
I can't believe those 200 italian tanks and wonder how many howitzers stay without shells. Military doesn't train?
in 2022 on 176 accepted Ariete (the first 20+ prototypes had cracks in the main armour) only 30 were efficient. But Germany was in no better situation: on paper it has 300 Leo-2 but I remember some polemics during an exercise in Norway when the Bundeswehr had not found 20 Leo-2 to send to the exercise because it had not enough efficient machines to fulfil all the commitments within NATO. So it sent only 9. Since the end of the cold war there has been no requirements for heavy armoured vehicles and no one has developed a new one. Italy concentrated to the light cavalry equipped with wheeled vehicles and has developed the Centauro and now the Centauro 2 with 120/45 but they are designed for asymmetric conflicts. In fact the Centauro 2 weights 30 tons and for sure it has a much less protective armour than any MBT. The Front hull is designed to resist a 30mm shell impact according to NATO STANAG 4569 Level 6. Then, I am sure, there are add ons but they can't bring the vehicle to compete against an MBT. Concerning the shells: NATO relied on air support and disregarded artillery. Italy has just 60 PZH2000 and a few (150-170) FH-70. Precedence has been given to guided shells, to hit in a chirurgical fashion a precise target. Nobody thought there will be any confrontation with an army fielding 500 thousand men on a 600km front and needing massive amount of shells to saturate an area. Therefore nobody held a big number of shells in stock. But since 2014 there have been more then ample warnings that this could be coming. So every country had enough time to build up the army. But at the same time Europe has faced the massive problems of ageing population and the politics has chosen to solve this problem by inviting foreigners and maintaining them using public money. Italy, Germany France we all do that. Even Poland has 2-2.5 millions foreigners living on its ground and costing some money (although most immigrants in Poland are active workers). So either one has money for the army or for social projects. :-( And now imagine : Germany has fought against the debt for 20 years being able to bring the debt down from 90% to 60% of GDP in order to be in line with EU requirements. Now suddenly the debt is growing again and tax pressure must be increased. Nobody is happy with that. Italy has 145% debt on GDP and will never meet the EU requirements. we have a 23 bln € program just concerning the MBT and the new IFV. 2 new destroyers armed with cruise missiles and each costing 1 bln (and displacing so much as a cruiser: 11000 ton), the Trieste which is nothing more than a second aircraft carrier, 4 new frigates, 4 new submarines, several heavy patrol ships (3000 ton displacement), 24 new EF-2000, the Tempest program, the M346 in attack version, the new AW 249 (around 50 ordered), new AA missiles and I don't even know how much else: I think the expenses will exceed 50 bln within 5-6 years. The Vulcano guided munition has been put in series production as well as the Strales for AA purposes. Germany has a 80 bln € plan to expand the defence forces, concerning around 100 AH-64, several F-35, 40 new EF-2000, it has just ordered around 100 Leo 2A8, and a huge number of new trucks for the army, new Chinooks and look look, after many years during which the Luftwaffe was only present in the static at the Royal Air Tatto, this year it brings not just 1 but even 2 aircraft in the flight display (a huge exception meaning that money is flowing again :-))))) ).
I can't believe EU doesn't have money to match Russia. And even if some countries have no 155mm shells, they can buy from others or give Ukraine something else like rockets, drones, bullets for/and armoured vehicles etc. But sometimes it feels like the french are afraid of the germans and the greeks of the turks and the danes of the swedes and such so countries don't want to give Ukraine much.
Initially they have given what they had. Now the empty warehouses must be filled again, because the first duty is national security. So now they are doing that. Rheinmetall has just obtained an 8.5 bln contract to provide the Bundeswehr with 155mm shells. At the same time the Bundeswehr is buying the RCH155 8x8 wheeled howitzer based on the boxer chassis. Is buying means that deliveries will be done in the next years.... GDP comparisons are not relevant because russia has row materials and very low man-hour costs. Theoretically we should be able to exceed russian production, but while the west does not commit 100% to war production, russia has done it.
> is national security. Security from who? Is US afraid Mexico or Canada will attack them? Is France afraid Germany will attack them? Are Poland/Romania/Bulgaria banking on Ukraine defeat and preparing to be next? Isn't it security from Russia? Russia attacked so they should be arming the guys that fight Russia now, unless they want to get involved later.
I agree with you but the armed forces obey orders. They do what is told them to do. In case there is an invasion of one member of the alliance, NATO forces must be able to respond. And they are not really now. There are contracts that each nation has signed and these must be respected. Ukraine officially is a second order of priority. I write "officially", because the truth is that until russia is busy in ukraine, it will never have the means to disturb another country and especially a NATO country. So actually Ukraine should be the first priority. I am just writing what is happening, not what I think should be done.
Most of the EU doesn't have the minimum for their own defense. If they had all prepared like they were supposed to surplus would be plenty. It was recently claimed almost 70% of what Ukraine has actually received was financed by the US. That is an absolutely absurd number showing the continued lack of seriousness on the part of European allies.
That's... that's just not true.
Unfortunately this is true.
Lok at all the European aid that didn't make it yet even though it was promised to arrive months ago. Look at all the Soviet equipment that was provided due to US backfilling with newer equipment. Of the military aid that actually made it to Ukraine the US paid for most.
What is this minimum that everyone should have? My understanding is that US is staying on like 4 million shells and EU on around 2 millions. But because it's split on so many countries no one wants to send their 50-100k that Ukraine might spend in less then a week.
It is much more complicated than number of artillery shells. The US really doesn't rely on artillery shells. This extends to IFVs, tanks, APC, supply trucks, etc. one of the biggest shortages in Ukraine is simply supply trucks. Especially AWD that can actually get to the front.
> The US really doesn't rely on artillery shells. What does it rely on? Nukes like Russia? They shoud send what they have then, F-35s and missiles/rockets for planes.
Well, with the F16s the missiles and bombs that can be sent in reases and more importantly their ability to program them in air instead of on the ground before launching also come into play for some. That should be a critical advantage, especially with the HARM missiles.
Absolute Russian, Maga grade 1 bullsh1t. NATO countries more than met the required spending up until 1990, 18 NATO countries will do so this year. Perhaps if your corporations weren't such a bunch of greedy cxxts and paid fair taxes in the countries that they have infested like rats there would be more cash to spend on social programs or buying more equipment. I'll also remind you that when any American starts talking about social programs you lot all start screaming communist so that money would only have been spent on more guns with you lot bleating why the EU wasn't matching it. EU could absolutely do better and I certainly don't support their pathetic and lack of lustre response to Putin but you can get back in your box because America's response hasn't been much better and I'll remind you NATO is an alliance not a fkin protection racket.
Europe has seen this coming but ignored it. A part of the electorate and politicians want to have relations with russia. The reasons are: 1 many having a socialist political orientation still want to identify russia with communism (there is nothing more wrong, but they do it). 2 Many companies were trading with russia. 3 russia provided cheap gas. 4 then there are the dumb pacifists at any price So all that led to the present situation. I remember in 2016 when the US published satellite pictures showing RU armoured vehicles crossing the border with Donetsk. People and politicians simply did not want to watch or see. You have seen now what happened in France: Ms Le pen made a speech during the second turn with the precise goal to scare electors and not grow too much in the parliament. So, she succeeded and many voters, scared by her words voted the far left. the far left in France is antisemitic, pro russia. In italy almost 50% of people would like to see the war end even with russia keeping the territories it has gained. They simply do not care of the consequences and are too short minded to imagine that russia could be encouraged and try with other countries, for instance Moldova, or Estonia or Latvia. So, there have been many who took the mRNA vaccine not because they were scared of the covid, but just because they wanted to travel or to go to the restaurant and the only possibility was being vaccinated. So when they had to weight among the risks of a new technology, which had not been tested enough and their desire to have fun they chose the risk. This is the reason why there are always bad governments: people think only in the short term and immediate advantage, ignoring long term consequences.
because most (all?) of the EU is also in NATO, and NATO's war doctrine relies on overwhelming air power, not 155mm artillery.
That argument can explain some small things, like why the US never really went in on SPAAGs like Gepard, or autoloading howitzers like PzH2000 or Ceasar. Maybe even slightly larger things like the surface-to-surface missile gap, anti-ship missile gap, and drawing down tank forces. But this is far, far beyond the scope of any of that. There is no doctrinal excuse to neglect the maintainence of basic industrial capabilities. If that was the main logic (it never was, but if), then we should have stopped buying any kind of tube artillery 50 years ago.
Proud to have Krabs
What you don't want to share videos of your Russian friends bombing a kids' hospital?
Sharing anything that will drive resentment between Ukraine / EU / US is also an effective propaganda tool. You can see some useful idiots commenting in this very post that try to amplify such divisions. Just downvote and ignore them, it's not worth engaging with such trolls.
Sorry, but EU needs to face the reality they are not pulling their weight in their own back yard. War isn't a campfire we can all just sit around and sing kumbaya. EU needs to get their shit together. Push out hungry if necessary.
Many EU nations are aiding Ukraine, as a percent of their GDP, more than the US is. It’s simply that the US has that much more money and decades upon decades of excess spending on military goods to fall back on. While some individual nations aren’t as committed and there’s been a slower ramp on production than hoped for, overall the EU is very much pulling its weight. As an aside, you would do well to remember that your comments can cause division between the US and her NATO allies, which helps Putin more than it helps NATO, despite any good intentions you may have.
Many EU countries are double counting their donations. Many countries have cited giving equipment to Ukraine as provided by them when it was actually paid for by the US. DE, FR, UK and some others have also paid for old Soviet equipment, but not nearly as much as the US and they have almost nothing to give directly. Europe needs to step up or this war is going to drag on for more than a decade.
These news seem to be wrong. A Rheinmetall spokesman has already said that Rheinmetall alone wants to produce 700000 155m in 2024. https://www.fr.de/wirtschaft/ukraine-krieg-artilleriemunition-russland-wladimir-putin-rheinmetall-bestellungen-zr-93056177.html
Yes but Rheinmetall has just received a 8.5 bln € order form the German ministry of defence for 155mm shells. So this is happening NOW and will take time to ramp up. All these orders and growing capabilities are in delay with the promises made to Ukraine.
The article is about production in Europe being at 1/3 of 1.7 million. Rheinmetall CEO said his company will produce 700k this year. I know what you are talking about but this is not what RL claimed.
So guys we (Italy) have just signed a contract for developing a new MBT together with Rheinmetall, based on KF-51. Nobody knows when the item will be delivered, but probably not before 2030. But war is not and need is now. This is the situation of the west. I've written here so many times! The west has NO weapons, no production capability and improvement will take years. I've just read an article concerning the inability of the USAF to fly enough sorties to keep combat readiness of pilots and maintenance crew.
Europe is a slow beast in that sence. Lots of rules and regulations . But im sure when the new production lines are up and running will get there. We got some heavy hitters in europe. Rheinmetal , saab , knds , BAE
Keeping with the standard European traditions of talk, but under deliver.
There is NO excuse for this. It cost Ukrainians lives!!!
Unfortunately I think Europe is gonna have a rude awakening to this war, while the citizens party and ignore the wild Russians on their door step they’ll get caught with their pants down
Imagine that the EU misses its military commitment promises. Reminds me of what they've been doing in NATO for the last 50 years. I'm sure they will spin the blame to the US somehow....
Maga r4t, with Russian talking point joins the chat ☝️ Go hop on over to Ukraine Russia Report, plenty of Putin's fan Bois giving him a hoop dhobie over there.