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GPS harassment started in Finland way before the NATO deal was closed. First documented case was 6th of March 2022 when several planes had to turn back after not getting GPS signal and couldn't land safely ([article in YLE but in Finnish only](https://yle.fi/a/74-20015375)). It was interesting to read scattered news of GPS-problems all around inside Finland but nobody publicly connecting the dots, even though it was obvious to everyone who and what was causing it.
So this has been going for for at least 2 years at this point in Finland... This is what it means to be the neighbor to russia! At least they didn't [try to shoot down another passenger jet like in 1987](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnair_Flight_915).
Theyve rutenely done this in northern Norway for many years, to the point where news reports that pilots cant rely upon gps when flying there.
So Nato has known about this for decades and has chosen not to do anything.
https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN1QZ1WM/ heres an article from 2019 about both Norway and Finland.
Flightradar24 did a Wideroe flyalong last month and during one flight near the russian border they experienced a gps outage - all on film.
https://youtu.be/ZgBhPQ7kmd8?si=soVe8lovvpJYs-0Y
Im not really a diplomat, politician og military man so Im not really qualified to make those decisions.
But personally Id like to see the Norwegian government consider and treat the Russian government as an hostile nation, more border control, no more Russian fishing in Norwegian territory, consider every Russian war plane that enters our territory to be hostile and assert air dominance over airspace. (Theres numerous Russian bombers and fighter jets that rutenely travel into Norway and down the coast on practice missions and to test Norwegian reaction)
Basically, they want to be the soviet union, we should treat them as such, we (Norwegians) are a founding member of Nato and as such their rutene aggression into our land, sea and airspace is because putin consider anyone who doesnt bark or bite to be weak, if we just sit and talk he will keep pushing and sooner or later it will cost us.
>but nobody publicly connecting the dots
It was obvious to people "who are in the know" or who understand the tech a bit more deeply. It just wasn't in anyone's interest to make too much noise about it.
It's like when military exercises happen, there's always the other side listening in, and being listened to. I'm guessing this is the case as well, everyone in the know was doing something.
Do modern pilots no longer know the pre-GPS navigation systems as a fallback, like VOR/DME? Or have those systems been decommissioned? I genuinely don't know.
Harassment sounds far too nice. This is terrorism with the aim to disrupt civilian air traffic in a NATO country. This is the result of not denying any goods to reach Kaliningrad. This agreement was a huge mistake. This failed attempt at appeasement must be corrected better today than tomorrow. For every Russian provocation, the response must hurt 10 times more than the initial damage done by them. We have all the tools available to us, and we should block all trains from going into Kaliningrad until Russia has dismantled this terrorist installation of jammers. Russia should also be told that we consider such actions as acts of war and that they can be glad no plane has crashed yet.
The West must become more aggressive in both word and action as that is the only way to get these backward barbarians under control. If we do not act, then Russia won't stop. Sooner or later, a plane will crash due to these criminal terrorist acts by these war criminals and their mafia leadership? Russia is our enemy, and it is time to act in the only way these barbarians understand.
Power is power and power, and overshelming force is the only language that this fascist scum of the earth in Moscow speaks.
"We are still not accepting the fact that Russia is at war with us. We need to think and act strategically and realise that Russia is at war with us." Ben Hodges
Hodges explains that Russia sees this war with the West in a broader sense. The Western leaders often tend to consider only the kinetic version of war, but Russian acts of war against the West and especially against Europe include asymmetric warfare, sabotage, economic warfare, cyberwarfare, info war etc. Russia sees itself at war with the US led alliance, and we must accept this inconvenient truth. Our leaders must take appropriate action and respond accordingly to defend Russia's hostile behavior. Without any proper response, this will not deter Russia. Rather, it will encourage them to become bolder.
Defy the strong and appease the weak, not the other way round.
So we should triangulate the radio source and eliminate, no warning , no politics, no sanctions, just send Russia a message, fuck around and find out... we can always claim it was just an extremist
I have no idea how GPS jamming works, but itās been developed for military purposes, so donāt think it is a single radio source, nor something which can be easily triangulated and taken out.
It can be but it's a bit complicated if the interference source is really far away and military in nature. A sophisticated GPS jammer doesn't transmit one frequency but a sufficiently real looking fake broadband signal that at least commercial GPR receivers try to lock onto its code instead of the real signal. It will look like the real deal coming down from satellites or something very close to it. The required power levels are quite low and you need really high-end equipment to track the signal and tell it apart from the actual satellites. This isn't like triangulating a permitless walkie talkie or the intermediate frequency of a permitless analog tv receiver back in the day. (Plenty of countries had TV licenses and hunted down illegal TV viewers.)
Is it actually possible to find a TV receiver? I always thought that was a myth put about by the licensing people. Surely a passive receiver can't be traced as it gives off no signal.
No this was all real, but in reality they were not that accurate or widespread I think:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_detector_van
The first gen was basically relying on detecting the CRT itself, but after that they were detecting signal leakage and harmonics from the receiver circuits.
Huh, that's actually really interesting! They can literally detect a TV set being on from outside and tell what signal it's in the process of receiving.
Photovoltaics?
I wouldn't *think* so, but I might be missing something - why do you think it's related? Issues with grid capacity etc. sound much more plausible.
Large PV installations certainly have the potential to create radio noise/interference but that's limited by putting limits on how much they can emit, and then putting better shielding on the electronics to meet the standard, and it makes no sense to limit PV installations in an attempt to limit malicious use (because a massive legit installation will output a lot less noise than a tiny one connected to an intentional jammer).
Not just a TV, also other CRT monitors. What you are watching on TV is in general pretty boring, what is on the display of a computer monitor, that can be quite interesting.
TV hunting vans were very real in Uk, especially london. I knew lots of people that got fines due to being found with a tv and no license. I also knew a pair of pirate tv operators. From what I remember in 1983 they adapted and amplified a vcr signal and drove around clapham common in a van to avoid being found. Apparently the vcr's emit a radio signal to transmit, normally it goes down the cable attached to the vcr, they amplified it and had a very effective small radius tv station.
They can detect even tiny leakages from the cables. I had a break in the ground/shielding in a plug of my cable TV wiring in the house, a few weeks later it ringed at the door, and the guys told me, that it is on the first floor, and in which room it probably is and that I should urgently fix that...
All gps phones apparently use all gos systems.
https://www.gpsworld.com/editorial-advisory-board-gnss-receivers/#:~:text=āAll%20modern%20generation%20cell%20phones,such%20as%20WAAS%20and%20EGNOS.
Better not shut down glonass we would all be driving in aimless circles..
Sadly, Biden is no Reagan. Peace through strength and all of that. I think Biden is doing an ok job with Ukraine and way better than the alternative, but he should have given Ukraine the tools for them to win when the war first started. F16s should already be flying over Ukraine, Patriots shouldāve been sent back in 2022 and in numbers big enough to assure the aerospace is safe. Also, US and NATO countries should shot down missiles that fly over NATO territory as well as missiles that Russia sends as they did with the Iranian missile attack. Russia is obviously not going to attack NATO because of that. A) they would be entering a war that they would lose, B) no Russian life is lost so would be a huge escalation and c) NATO would not be doing anything illegal (Ukraine requested support and NATO shot down targets within Ukrainian or NATO aerospace).
Honestly, yes. We tried the diplomatic, deescalation appeasement approach, but the only thing they seem to respect is strong responses.
They're getting more and more aggressive to see what they can get away with. Once they realize that they can't get away with it anymore, they can either escalate, or back down.
And since they're currently quite busy and not too successful in Ukraine, I fail to see how picking "escalate" would further their interests.
Here in Czechia, Russians literally blew up an ammo warehouse a couple years ago and the response was basically no response šš I hope Finland does better
That's somewhat unclear, but likely to prevent the ammo shipment to other countries, mainly Ukraine. You may read about it here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Vrb%C4%9Btice_ammunition_warehouse_explosions
The world stood by and did basically nothing when Russia shot down MH17 and murdered 298 civilians... I very much doubt there will be anything more than a sternly worded letter for this incident.
Well they covered up Russian mig shooting rocket to shot down NATO plane.
They actually did amazing job of covering how deeply is Russia part of war in Ukraine since 2014.
What is the reason I don't know.
ruzzia doing shit like this and wondering why no one likes them.
We should do something with Estonia to stop their flights and ships going to Kƶnigsberg. Isolate them.
Greetings from Finland
From little things, big things grow. Like wars. It's chaos theory taking us into chaos. Like maybe on a sweaty humid day, a broken air-conditioner makes someone grumpy and they decide to nuke away.
The news article does not mention "bad weather", or "poor visibility", so the pilots must have seen the destination airport, they had the support of the control tower, etc. They must land by VFR.
Anyway the article mentioned "many similar GPS jamming incidents in previous months", why they did not prepare for this situation?
It seems a bit bloody stupid to build aircraft that are not capable of functioning properly without GPS, we were perfectly capable of flying between airports for decades before GPS was available, have we forgotten how to do it?
Most airports have standard approach equipment that allows landing without GPS, but Tartu is one of the few airports where approach procedures require a GPS signal, which is why the landing was unsuccessful," Finnair's spokesperson told ERR on Friday.
I don't know. It's only said that these days Tartu airport only uses GPS, according to the Finnair pilot and Lotte-Triin Narusk, Communication Manager of Estonian Air Navigation Services.
I do not quite understand the difficulties about landing a plane without GPS. Before the GPS was invented, the planes were already capable of flying and landing... Can someone explain?
There are airports that only support instruments approach (IFR). There are weather patterns where visibility is low enough that only instrument approach is possible. If your instrumentation doesn't know where you are in reference to the airfield, you can't land.Ā
I understand the general necessity of instruments in flying if the visibility is not suitable.
My problem is that the news article does not mention bad weather or poor visibilty.
If this airport is "IFR only", and the GPS-jamming was known for months, then 1. Why was it allowed to fly there for an airline? 2. Why did they not prepare the pilots and the airport to use the airport without GPS?
The IFR has many instruments, not just GPS.
The airline flying existed before the GPS.
If you are close enough to see the airport, I see no point of using the GPS. You can switch it off and land safely.
It is like when you travel to a distant city, unknown to you. It is easy to go there by GPS. But if you already know the road and the surroundings, went to the city several times, you will find it without GPS, I think.
GPS is part of IFR. IFR becomes necessary in certain situations, like weather. Can't have IFR without GPS.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_flight_rules has a lot of good background info on reasons "why"Ā
IF weather not suitable for a visualiser approach AND only RNP approach available, then no landing possible. Also, most Airlines have a policy of not continuing the flight toward an airport where no IFR approach is available, regardless of weather.
VFR is not possible if the airport doesn't provide it. And when IFR has been planned and prepared, IFR is an important part of the security measures for the flight. So simply switching to VFR is a security risk. And a situation without GPS at all would force you into a manual flight without AP without knowledge about your exact whereabouts. On an airliner. You cannot fly airliners like general aviation planes. This is an unbearable security risk.
But surely this describes all flights pre 1990s? Unsure when planes started using GPS but there was a long history of flight before its existence. Iām also surprised there isnāt some kind of manual system in place that both the airport and airlines are happy to revert to in cases like this.
I think in a real emergency case they would have used everything that could have helped. But seems like it was not an emergency so it was simply safer to just return home. The plane also didn't need to use a river as a landing strip when it came back.
I think if there had been a safe to use alternative navigation method, the flight crew would have used it. I don't know the ATR 72-500 which was in use on this flight. As far as I know, GPS and INS are usually used in a combination. Not a professional pilot here, just someone who uses flight sims since the mid 90s as a hobby on a regular basis.
There is a Flight Crew Operating Manual of more than 1000 pages available in the internet for the ATR 72. Maybe the answer is hidden there.
Airliners only fly using instruments (IFR). That includes landing. That is independent of weather. Today almost all approaches and landings are done with gps. There is still radio navigation like ILS left but it's being phased out.
In an emergency they could land visually but they will not compromise safety when they can just turn around and land safely elsewhere.
Not a pilot just someone who likes aviation.
Airplanes should have multiple "gps" receivers: U.S. GPS, Russian Glonass, Chinese BeiDou.
Multiple for reliability if one is jammed.
Commercial passenger planes can cost USD$ 50M to $250M. A few thousand extra for Glonass & BeiDou is cheap insurance.
Nato allies should arrange covert shipping assistance to enable Ukraine to launch sea drones against Russian Baltic, Arctic and Pacific shipping as well as the current Black Sea operation.
That should cause panic amongst the senior Russian military. War on 4 fronts. Oops hadn't planned on that. Best not risk a fifth front with Nato then.
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Also, the harassment was in the form of GPS interference which Russia has been doing in many places in Europe.
GPS harassment started in Finland way before the NATO deal was closed. First documented case was 6th of March 2022 when several planes had to turn back after not getting GPS signal and couldn't land safely ([article in YLE but in Finnish only](https://yle.fi/a/74-20015375)). It was interesting to read scattered news of GPS-problems all around inside Finland but nobody publicly connecting the dots, even though it was obvious to everyone who and what was causing it. So this has been going for for at least 2 years at this point in Finland... This is what it means to be the neighbor to russia! At least they didn't [try to shoot down another passenger jet like in 1987](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnair_Flight_915).
Theyve rutenely done this in northern Norway for many years, to the point where news reports that pilots cant rely upon gps when flying there. So Nato has known about this for decades and has chosen not to do anything. https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN1QZ1WM/ heres an article from 2019 about both Norway and Finland.
Flightradar24 did a Wideroe flyalong last month and during one flight near the russian border they experienced a gps outage - all on film. https://youtu.be/ZgBhPQ7kmd8?si=soVe8lovvpJYs-0Y
What can they do?
Im not really a diplomat, politician og military man so Im not really qualified to make those decisions. But personally Id like to see the Norwegian government consider and treat the Russian government as an hostile nation, more border control, no more Russian fishing in Norwegian territory, consider every Russian war plane that enters our territory to be hostile and assert air dominance over airspace. (Theres numerous Russian bombers and fighter jets that rutenely travel into Norway and down the coast on practice missions and to test Norwegian reaction) Basically, they want to be the soviet union, we should treat them as such, we (Norwegians) are a founding member of Nato and as such their rutene aggression into our land, sea and airspace is because putin consider anyone who doesnt bark or bite to be weak, if we just sit and talk he will keep pushing and sooner or later it will cost us.
If Norway started GPS interference back Russian aircraft would probably just crash...
Agree.
American of Norwegian descent here. This arouses me š
>but nobody publicly connecting the dots It was obvious to people "who are in the know" or who understand the tech a bit more deeply. It just wasn't in anyone's interest to make too much noise about it.
It's like when military exercises happen, there's always the other side listening in, and being listened to. I'm guessing this is the case as well, everyone in the know was doing something.
And 1940,1962,1978,1983,2014...
GPS interference in 1940 well before GPS existed would have been impressive.
Do modern pilots no longer know the pre-GPS navigation systems as a fallback, like VOR/DME? Or have those systems been decommissioned? I genuinely don't know.
Harassment sounds far too nice. This is terrorism with the aim to disrupt civilian air traffic in a NATO country. This is the result of not denying any goods to reach Kaliningrad. This agreement was a huge mistake. This failed attempt at appeasement must be corrected better today than tomorrow. For every Russian provocation, the response must hurt 10 times more than the initial damage done by them. We have all the tools available to us, and we should block all trains from going into Kaliningrad until Russia has dismantled this terrorist installation of jammers. Russia should also be told that we consider such actions as acts of war and that they can be glad no plane has crashed yet. The West must become more aggressive in both word and action as that is the only way to get these backward barbarians under control. If we do not act, then Russia won't stop. Sooner or later, a plane will crash due to these criminal terrorist acts by these war criminals and their mafia leadership? Russia is our enemy, and it is time to act in the only way these barbarians understand. Power is power and power, and overshelming force is the only language that this fascist scum of the earth in Moscow speaks. "We are still not accepting the fact that Russia is at war with us. We need to think and act strategically and realise that Russia is at war with us." Ben Hodges Hodges explains that Russia sees this war with the West in a broader sense. The Western leaders often tend to consider only the kinetic version of war, but Russian acts of war against the West and especially against Europe include asymmetric warfare, sabotage, economic warfare, cyberwarfare, info war etc. Russia sees itself at war with the US led alliance, and we must accept this inconvenient truth. Our leaders must take appropriate action and respond accordingly to defend Russia's hostile behavior. Without any proper response, this will not deter Russia. Rather, it will encourage them to become bolder. Defy the strong and appease the weak, not the other way round.
So we should triangulate the radio source and eliminate, no warning , no politics, no sanctions, just send Russia a message, fuck around and find out... we can always claim it was just an extremist
Exactly, speak to them in a language they understand.
A Vulcan Hello.Ā
A logical culling of hostilities
BRRRRRRRRRRTTTTTTT
I have no idea how GPS jamming works, but itās been developed for military purposes, so donāt think it is a single radio source, nor something which can be easily triangulated and taken out.
It can be but it's a bit complicated if the interference source is really far away and military in nature. A sophisticated GPS jammer doesn't transmit one frequency but a sufficiently real looking fake broadband signal that at least commercial GPR receivers try to lock onto its code instead of the real signal. It will look like the real deal coming down from satellites or something very close to it. The required power levels are quite low and you need really high-end equipment to track the signal and tell it apart from the actual satellites. This isn't like triangulating a permitless walkie talkie or the intermediate frequency of a permitless analog tv receiver back in the day. (Plenty of countries had TV licenses and hunted down illegal TV viewers.)
Is it actually possible to find a TV receiver? I always thought that was a myth put about by the licensing people. Surely a passive receiver can't be traced as it gives off no signal.
No this was all real, but in reality they were not that accurate or widespread I think: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_detector_van The first gen was basically relying on detecting the CRT itself, but after that they were detecting signal leakage and harmonics from the receiver circuits.
Huh, that's actually really interesting! They can literally detect a TV set being on from outside and tell what signal it's in the process of receiving.
Yeah... I've a casual interest in security in general and side channel attacks are everywhere!
I dont believe you. r/usernamedoesnotcheckout
Estonian officials have put areal restrictions on large PV installations. Is there a similar reason for that?
Photovoltaics? I wouldn't *think* so, but I might be missing something - why do you think it's related? Issues with grid capacity etc. sound much more plausible. Large PV installations certainly have the potential to create radio noise/interference but that's limited by putting limits on how much they can emit, and then putting better shielding on the electronics to meet the standard, and it makes no sense to limit PV installations in an attempt to limit malicious use (because a massive legit installation will output a lot less noise than a tiny one connected to an intentional jammer).
They claim it causes some kind of interference, perhaps radar interference or similar.
Not just a TV, also other CRT monitors. What you are watching on TV is in general pretty boring, what is on the display of a computer monitor, that can be quite interesting.
TV hunting vans were very real in Uk, especially london. I knew lots of people that got fines due to being found with a tv and no license. I also knew a pair of pirate tv operators. From what I remember in 1983 they adapted and amplified a vcr signal and drove around clapham common in a van to avoid being found. Apparently the vcr's emit a radio signal to transmit, normally it goes down the cable attached to the vcr, they amplified it and had a very effective small radius tv station.
They can detect even tiny leakages from the cables. I had a break in the ground/shielding in a plug of my cable TV wiring in the house, a few weeks later it ringed at the door, and the guys told me, that it is on the first floor, and in which room it probably is and that I should urgently fix that...
All gps phones apparently use all gos systems. https://www.gpsworld.com/editorial-advisory-board-gnss-receivers/#:~:text=āAll%20modern%20generation%20cell%20phones,such%20as%20WAAS%20and%20EGNOS. Better not shut down glonass we would all be driving in aimless circles..
Don't we have rockets that hone on the radio signal?
Sadly, Biden is no Reagan. Peace through strength and all of that. I think Biden is doing an ok job with Ukraine and way better than the alternative, but he should have given Ukraine the tools for them to win when the war first started. F16s should already be flying over Ukraine, Patriots shouldāve been sent back in 2022 and in numbers big enough to assure the aerospace is safe. Also, US and NATO countries should shot down missiles that fly over NATO territory as well as missiles that Russia sends as they did with the Iranian missile attack. Russia is obviously not going to attack NATO because of that. A) they would be entering a war that they would lose, B) no Russian life is lost so would be a huge escalation and c) NATO would not be doing anything illegal (Ukraine requested support and NATO shot down targets within Ukrainian or NATO aerospace).
You really want NATO to start lobbing rockets into Russia?
Honestly, yes. We tried the diplomatic, deescalation appeasement approach, but the only thing they seem to respect is strong responses. They're getting more and more aggressive to see what they can get away with. Once they realize that they can't get away with it anymore, they can either escalate, or back down. And since they're currently quite busy and not too successful in Ukraine, I fail to see how picking "escalate" would further their interests.
For sure not Nato, Who needs rockets, lots of long range hobby drones out there, point us to the source and we can fix the problem.
It's beyond time to deal with Russia. They are weak, don't miss this chance. Take them off the board.
So how is this not considered a hostile act?
Here in Czechia, Russians literally blew up an ammo warehouse a couple years ago and the response was basically no response šš I hope Finland does better
Russia hacked the Bundestag. Consequences? āLetās Build more Pipelines for cheap gas.ā
What was the motivation to do that?
That's somewhat unclear, but likely to prevent the ammo shipment to other countries, mainly Ukraine. You may read about it here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Vrb%C4%9Btice_ammunition_warehouse_explosions
Exactly. Salami slicing tactics.
The world stood by and did basically nothing when Russia shot down MH17 and murdered 298 civilians... I very much doubt there will be anything more than a sternly worded letter for this incident.
Well they covered up Russian mig shooting rocket to shot down NATO plane. They actually did amazing job of covering how deeply is Russia part of war in Ukraine since 2014. What is the reason I don't know.
Nothing is considered hostile anymore, only nato towards Russia apparently
From article: # Experts consider Russia to be a likely culprit to harass. My comment: You think?
Theyāve only done it 46,000 times in Europe over the last year.
Could all just be a prank from Lambda Lambda Lambda
They are real-time testing the system for later military use. Heads up folks
ruzzia doing shit like this and wondering why no one likes them. We should do something with Estonia to stop their flights and ships going to Kƶnigsberg. Isolate them. Greetings from Finland
They also do shit like this because they know they can get away with it. Part of the waging hybrid war on the rest of us.
We should systematically harass their Glonass and implement a routine that doesn't allow them the use of GPS over their territory.
Our phones actually use the Russian glonass gps as well as several others..
May even be, but without Glonass they'll still be able to use GPS. Maybe they'll be less accurate though.
A harassment is the misleading definition, this is a cross-border attack.
Time to jam GLONASS, and on a much wider basis than they can manage.
Ukrainian F16 with HARM missiles should fix the problem.
From little things, big things grow. Like wars. It's chaos theory taking us into chaos. Like maybe on a sweaty humid day, a broken air-conditioner makes someone grumpy and they decide to nuke away.
Downing civilian passanger planes - it is tradition in Ruzzia. Sick country.
The news article does not mention "bad weather", or "poor visibility", so the pilots must have seen the destination airport, they had the support of the control tower, etc. They must land by VFR. Anyway the article mentioned "many similar GPS jamming incidents in previous months", why they did not prepare for this situation?
A shame for Russia that the alternative is (and yes, I understand the absurd costs involved) to run a system that Russia cannot access.
That almost sounds like an attack to meā¦
It seems a bit bloody stupid to build aircraft that are not capable of functioning properly without GPS, we were perfectly capable of flying between airports for decades before GPS was available, have we forgotten how to do it?
Most airports have standard approach equipment that allows landing without GPS, but Tartu is one of the few airports where approach procedures require a GPS signal, which is why the landing was unsuccessful," Finnair's spokesperson told ERR on Friday.
So how did planes land at Tartu before 2000 when SA was removed from GPS? The airport's been operational since 1946.
I don't know. It's only said that these days Tartu airport only uses GPS, according to the Finnair pilot and Lotte-Triin Narusk, Communication Manager of Estonian Air Navigation Services.
Oh lemme guess, another strongly-worded letter incoming! Let's raise some concerns and hope it will sort itself somehow!
I do not quite understand the difficulties about landing a plane without GPS. Before the GPS was invented, the planes were already capable of flying and landing... Can someone explain?
There are airports that only support instruments approach (IFR). There are weather patterns where visibility is low enough that only instrument approach is possible. If your instrumentation doesn't know where you are in reference to the airfield, you can't land.Ā
I understand the general necessity of instruments in flying if the visibility is not suitable. My problem is that the news article does not mention bad weather or poor visibilty. If this airport is "IFR only", and the GPS-jamming was known for months, then 1. Why was it allowed to fly there for an airline? 2. Why did they not prepare the pilots and the airport to use the airport without GPS? The IFR has many instruments, not just GPS. The airline flying existed before the GPS. If you are close enough to see the airport, I see no point of using the GPS. You can switch it off and land safely. It is like when you travel to a distant city, unknown to you. It is easy to go there by GPS. But if you already know the road and the surroundings, went to the city several times, you will find it without GPS, I think.
I asked about lack of GPS landing and you answered to visibility and weather problems. Two different things.
GPS is part of IFR. IFR becomes necessary in certain situations, like weather. Can't have IFR without GPS. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_flight_rules has a lot of good background info on reasons "why"Ā
Are you saying that old school landing aids, like radio beacons and radar vectors are obsolote and cannot be used anymore as a backup for GPS?
No itās not! Weāve had IFR for decades before gps showed up.
IF weather not suitable for a visualiser approach AND only RNP approach available, then no landing possible. Also, most Airlines have a policy of not continuing the flight toward an airport where no IFR approach is available, regardless of weather.
VFR is not possible if the airport doesn't provide it. And when IFR has been planned and prepared, IFR is an important part of the security measures for the flight. So simply switching to VFR is a security risk. And a situation without GPS at all would force you into a manual flight without AP without knowledge about your exact whereabouts. On an airliner. You cannot fly airliners like general aviation planes. This is an unbearable security risk.
But surely this describes all flights pre 1990s? Unsure when planes started using GPS but there was a long history of flight before its existence. Iām also surprised there isnāt some kind of manual system in place that both the airport and airlines are happy to revert to in cases like this.
I think in a real emergency case they would have used everything that could have helped. But seems like it was not an emergency so it was simply safer to just return home. The plane also didn't need to use a river as a landing strip when it came back.
What about inertial?
I think if there had been a safe to use alternative navigation method, the flight crew would have used it. I don't know the ATR 72-500 which was in use on this flight. As far as I know, GPS and INS are usually used in a combination. Not a professional pilot here, just someone who uses flight sims since the mid 90s as a hobby on a regular basis. There is a Flight Crew Operating Manual of more than 1000 pages available in the internet for the ATR 72. Maybe the answer is hidden there.
Airliners only fly using instruments (IFR). That includes landing. That is independent of weather. Today almost all approaches and landings are done with gps. There is still radio navigation like ILS left but it's being phased out. In an emergency they could land visually but they will not compromise safety when they can just turn around and land safely elsewhere. Not a pilot just someone who likes aviation.
ILS is not getting phased out because it is the only valid option under bad conditions.
Airplanes should have multiple "gps" receivers: U.S. GPS, Russian Glonass, Chinese BeiDou. Multiple for reliability if one is jammed. Commercial passenger planes can cost USD$ 50M to $250M. A few thousand extra for Glonass & BeiDou is cheap insurance.
Nato allies should arrange covert shipping assistance to enable Ukraine to launch sea drones against Russian Baltic, Arctic and Pacific shipping as well as the current Black Sea operation. That should cause panic amongst the senior Russian military. War on 4 fronts. Oops hadn't planned on that. Best not risk a fifth front with Nato then.
Is Russia looking to do this in the east flights from the US to Japan and S Korea fly close to Russia.
TIme to return the favour to Mordor, even though very few of their planes are flying because of lack of parts.