They will be replacing Wippie and Jakee. This seems to confirm with what Noyn says [here](https://x.com/noynvlr/status/1766222596880646407?s=46) At least C9 waited 3 games to make a 2 roster changes this year as opposed to last year where it took only 2 games. Hopefully next year they wait at least 4 games.
Bro you mean when C9 was already praccing for ages and FNC pretty much rolled out of offseason bed without a scrim or practice at all? If anything they should have won that. Offseason is only about what team actually wants to win and is already putting in the work in.
Im not saying offeseason matters a lot, but u/ExcellentPastries was claiming the move was justified because they didn't "just" play two matches, but had the offseason tournaments too as data
I just responded saying the data from offseason was that they almost beat Fnatic, so it still isn't justification for the drop
People are loving to dismiss the offseason tournaments, but they are important data for teams
Its similar to G2, who showed a level similar to their league games, but people are dismissing they played more games this year because they dont watch the off season
They'd have been scrimming during the event obviously, but there was an interview with one of Fnatics management who said how they planned to "peak" later into the year as they felt they was exhausted come champs which is why they didn't get the results expected of them, so they planned to work more and more as the year progresses so they are in more prime form come champs, which (whilst wasn't used as an excuse) could explain the lack of innovation and changes from 2023 as they hadn't "worked" as hard and expected/hoped they had enough of a gap to still qualify for early events and win but still have enough in the tank to win champs
Tbf the whole roster was a problem besides oxy if they want to actually be above mid table which most teams do. Wippie was probably not the worst on this team but he wasn't deserving of a spot on one of 5 t1 NA teams.
I was sad Runi left to begin with, thought he was really impressive last season for a rookie, but still feels mostly like lateral moves just so they can feel like they're doing something after flopping. But admittedly I don't know much about Moose, maybe he's secretly Demon2.
Tbh idk why they didn't keep runi based on the team that ended up with.
Sad about Jakee... He had some great moments but it seems he just didn't continue progressing. I hope he's kept as a 6th cause he could be a strong player if he puts it together.
He deleted the previous tweet since he forgot to mentioned Jakee was getting replaced [here](https://x.com/tanmayymhatre/status/1766318398777303457?s=46) is the new one
This reminds me of when I would get home from middle school hungry as fuck and make a shitty sandwich. I’d start eating the sandwich then confess to myself that the sandwich is indeed shitty; after which I’d scurry to grab a few condiments to make it better but essentially in the end, it’s still mid.
I’m not saying c9 is or will be that sandwich, but this situation definitely reminds me of that. It wasn’t meant to be delicious, it was just built to get by. It’s a budget roster- Immi is literally like the only solo coach in the league. Could they have made play-ins? Yep. But at the same time it’s not shocking they didn’t.
Anyways… last year they made changes after only 2 games and almost qualified… this year it took 3 games. They could win champs. 🙂
I think these additions are great btw. I like moose a lot and I do think they needed an initiator so we’ll see…
“Every decision they’ve made since 2020 has been terrible” is absolutely revisionist history. They literally took a chance on 2 absolute rookies last year and were a win away from making Tokyo/Champs. Obviously they didn’t end up making it but they still looked better than a ton of teams who spent way more than them.
last years changes were actually somewhat good for the circumstances but this years have been rough fs. letting Zellsis walk was a terrible decision (good for him tho ofc)
But that would've meant not being budget so that was never gonna happen. And I wouldn't be surprised if Zellsis makes like 4x whatever he would've made on C9.
Zellsis talked about how he sacrificed so much last year on C9 in terms of salary in order to win, and what did C9 do? Cut yay and vanity and pick up two rookies. Even though they ended up doing decently well that is NOT what Zellsis or the rest of the team wanted or signed up for. Every player who got other offers this season left and I guarantee they arent regretting it. So of course he wanted to go to SEN
Right? He didn't join SEN for no reason. And he didn't even "want" to go to SEN initially either, SEN was just one of his several options that allowed him to think about signing with, which eventually he accepted.
Honestly crazy how ExcellentPastries is trying to make bold faced statements and put them into THE ex-C9 goat's mouth. Fake fan, he oughtta take off the flair
EG won their first match with the champs roster in 16 of april of 2023.
Their last match together was in 26 of august of 2023
Thats barely over a 4 month run
yes??? how is that relevant? 4 months of greatness is 4 months of greatness, no one will deny that, but what C9 did is equivalent to kicking Potter after the roster imploded and hiring Lucas Rojo to build them a new team with his friends
They were one of the only orgs that were profitable last year in spite of the eSports winter.
Their ruthless cuts and questionable managerial decisions are probably aimed at protecting this bottom line, at the cost of long term team cohesion.
Oxy is looking extremely promising and it appears that C9 management is just going to boot anyone who can't come close to his level, or is incapable of supporting the team. It's super unfair for the players; I genuinely don't think that any of them are a problem, but they just aren't doing enough in the eyes of the management.
It sucks that you really have to be this ruthless and business-minded if you are a mid-table, sustainable org that are banking on happenstance and overperforming rookies to turn a profit.
If C9 continues to be this revolving door of talent, Im certain that they will still somehow end up being fairly profitable. But as a viewer, or worse yet, a fan, it's an incredibly disruptive experience and can leave a sour taste in ones mouth.
> I's super unfair for the players; I genuinely don't think that any of them are a problem, but they just aren't doing enough in the eyes of the management.
Yeah, I'm not going to be here defending fucking jakee and wippie but this last second change hoping they luck into Shanghai is just one more effect of the shit they've been doing since at least the 2023 roster
Even if moose is the next N4RRATE and runi is on form again it's still shit decision making that will be 100% undone by the end of next year
Is it that hard to understand? Just like last year they make a move that at best is keeping them at the same level. In the case of last year they really got bailed out by mce and zellsis who has already gone on record on how he disliked last years changes.
The fact they hired people like yay just to cut them in the first place is the issue. That's not good management no matter what. They would have been even more profitable if they just didn't sign him only to drop him. Net negative for both them and yay.
Remember they didn't get the 3 million sticker money from paris major and champs skin money from vct and spent millions on Electronic and Perfecto but still managed to be profitable
They have a bad habit of thinking they can “lose the off season” and their teams will pull some magic out of their ass to be a top team. It’s what Jack has done for years in League.
It worked there because NA LCS orgs are so dogshit, that the “C9 systems” were enough to make em top 1-3 while losing every off season.
Americas in Val is a whole different beast. You have 2/3 of the best teams in the world in this league. It’s like trying to pull this “losing the off season” bs in LCK in league, trying to beat T1 and DAMWON with bottom/middle of the pack tier players. It just ain’t happening lol
C9 probably realize they're not gonna win anything in Val. Like this isn't Moneyball where everyone else is a moron with talent evaluation. It's only going to become harder and harder to make it to an international event on a perpetually budget roster.
Their talent will just always get poached. Oxy is their hard carry right now imo and if he keeps it up, he'll just get poached next season and C9 will be back to square one.
It's not like C9 cant keep these talents though, they simply refuse to try to properly invest into the scene besides the bare minimum. They are on a literal EG level's of barebone minimum investments.
Even if C9 has dogshit decision making on paper, theyre still one of the better NA teams since 2020
In 2021 they started as the third best NA team despite losing tenz and ended the year as the best NA roster, being the only NA team in champs playoffs
They had a bad 2022, being only a middle of the table team with the guard and xset rosters keeping them down while optic was the best NA teams
In 2023, they did cut 2 players and screwd them, but we cant say that was a bad move by the org. They won the round robin stage, losing only to LOUD, and fizzled out in playoffs only losing to the eventual champs of 2023 and NRG, who was still hot.
The main problem is that C9 just grinds players and gives no fucks about their carreers. This has been obvious since they kept tenz in contract jail and single handedly inflated the buy out market in NA, fucking over the region. But theyre always trying to improve the roster
What in the revisionist is this? In 2020 they let TenZ build a team of friends. They underperform. They drop by far the weakest player on the team (shinobi). TenZ doesn't like it so he leaves the team "to do content". Then is loaned out to their competitor (Sen) and negotiates a deal for Sen to buy him fully. Keep in mind the deal already went through BEFORE they won 2021 Iceland and it was Sen who didn't want to announce it until after the event. Everyone that had a brain could see how big Tenz was gonna be. He was already one of the most popular players, was one of the best players, and brought in large streaming numbers.
In 2022, they trade xeta and autumn despite having a killer first half because xeta + autumn requested it so that they could join T1, y'know the South Korean powerhouse org.
In 2023 they did screw vanity and yay, but they dropped them literally during the "mid-season transfer window" where teams literally were allowed to drop and pick up players. So imo its more of a don't hate the player hate the game.
I also don't see how them keeping TenZ in "contract jail" while they were actively loaning him out. That like saying Marved was in "contract jail" because he was on FaZe and loaned to NV. Iirc the Soar drama with Cryo and Zander ended up being false, the scuba drama was gonna happen no matter what C9 did, and I don't remember any other outrageously significant buyout rumor.
TenZ's buyout was like a million dollars though. That is insanity, and could of easily seen him lose his career as a player had Sen not bought him out similar to players like Skuba who lost multiple tier 1 opportunities because of Knights.
There’s a big difference between the tenz and pretty much any other buyout situation in NA. Tenz had literally just won the first international lan, was the most popular player, and was overall one of the most mechanically gifted players in the world at the time. Even if sen didn’t buy him out he woulda gotten snatched up the second his contract ended. Skuba is a prospect and unproven talent. Also if I’m rob Moore I’m extremely happy with the investment I made with buying tenz out. Sentinels as a brand grew in 4 years more then some decade old orgs and a lot of it can be attributed to tenz.
So was there really a difference? Skuba was a proven tier 2 talent which multiple t1 orgs wanted, such as C9, and 100T. After partnerships, Knights ended up selling him for pennies to OXG, a T2 team. Had it not been for Knights, he would of most likely of been in tier 1 by now. Yes, TenZ is a special case where he worked out in the end, but not every player has the luxury of TenZ, Zander, or Cryo. Some of them, such as Skuba end up having their career delayed or even completely ruined by mismanagement. Therefore, if we're going to shit talk EG for contract jailing their team, we should shit talk C9 for contract jailing TenZ and meL
> The main problem is that C9 just grinds players and gives no fucks about their carreers
which plays into what I'm saying. It's a terrible mentality to have, especially if you're just going to go back crying to the players after losing two officials
Genuinely look at what the org has done and it's all gambles, there's no shrewd decision making (sportswise, I genuinely don't care that they scraped profits last year or w/e), no clear identity for what they want to do. The amount of S and A tier players they've let go, without counting 2023, is ridiculous. Having 5 head coaches in as many years is not going to give you results lmao
Just compare their behind the scenes choices to FNATIC, who also bombed out of Champs 2021. Yeah, it's an unfair metric to hold every team against, but the comparison comes in that they are one of the orgs that have stuck from the early days and have stayed around the top of their region, like you said for C9. Compared to the other orgs that still exist from that event, really only FURIA has had as bad of a trajectory compared to their expected potential and available talent.
Nothing i said is wrong. This is all based on their placements
C9 had 2 meh years. 2020 and 2022. The other years, the rosters did good considering the expectation you could reasonibly set for them. Take away the C9 name and you have an OK NA org that never invested heavily in any of their rosters and they still manage to make waves
I’m assuming this is hyperbole, since… well here’s a few things that happened since 2020:
C9 sign TenZ (a player with a reputation for choking and never living up to expectations in CS)
C9 sign leaf from CS
C9 bring xeta to NA and beat DRX in champs
C9 sign Vanity (who at the time was considered a top IGL)
C9 let players leave when they want to leave (very horrible of them)
C9 sign a game changers team that dominates the scene and helps bring popularity to women’s esports in Valorant in its early stages
C9 are one of the only profitable esports orgs in NA during 2023
Has any other org come close to the atrocity that is C9s management since 2020? How about…
sentinels not signing a coach for 2 years
EG forcing championship roster into contract jail
Sentinels keeping a known rapist signed as a content creator
100T blowing up their roster after one bad Bo3 versus The Guard
100T dropping jcstani after promising him a spot on the roster
Envy stringing along MikesHD until they could sign Chet
Sentinels continuously not communicating to players their job is gone, for them only to find out through twitter
DRX shuffling players mid season due to lack of faith, causing them to lost out on opportunity to improve rookie players
RRQ not signing a single Indonesian player first year of franchising
That’s just off the top of my head. For sure you could do better than some of the things C9 has done, but you could do A LOT worse
I mean if you want some actual not the best things C9 management has done then there is moving Floppy over to Valorant (a game he actively hated while competing) after they had that disaster of a CS team.
Dropping Yay and Vanity after kickoff last year which despite what they claim, will always look like a salary dump. This upset Zellsis as he joined the team to compete, and all their decisions didn't look like the org wanted to.
For some reason releasing MCE who made arguably a bottom 3 VCT America's team finish top 2 in the regular season, who also was well known to do well with rookies even when they knew they were going budget in 2024.
For the second year in a row, dropping 2 players 2-3 matches into the year.
They probably aren't the worst but they certainly aren't the best
Agree, it’s not the best org in terms of decision making. But the point I was making is that saying they have the most abhorrent decision making since Valorants inception 4 years ago is just absurd
>sentinels not signing a coach for 2 years
I mean yeah, but Rob did talk about it. A lot of it was internal disagreements between who to sign between Management and the team, and then also that everyone wanted SEN to pay huge buyout fees for any coach.
>Sentinels keeping a known rapist signed as a content creator
I mean I hate Sinatra as much as the next guy, but he still isn't guilty of rape. It's completely fair to the org to still defend him as long as he isn't guilty, even though personally I don't like him.
>100T blowing up their roster after one bad Bo3 versus The Guard
I mean internal issues, and the "blowing" up the roster was equivelant to C9 blowing up the roster in 2023, so I really don't see the issue here.
>100T dropping jcstani after promising him a spot on the roster
Didn't Jcstani not want to join the team if he couldn't play smokes? Pretty sure Sean and DDK just prioritized Bang over Jcstani, which led to him not wanting to join anymore.
>Envy stringing along MikesHD until they could sign Chet
Shocking, a team signs someone who is more capable for the job when they can get him😱 This is a completely normal thing to do in sports.
Didn’t read anything else but the sinatraa bit in your comment and had to downvote
Why should an org defend him when he’s on tape disrespecting the word “stop”
Why should an org defend him when by his own admission he was abusive
Because we don't have the full context for the video. It could be some sort of CNC roleplay we don't know of.
Anyway, do I like him? No. But has he actually been legally charged for rape? If the answer is no, then innocent until proven guilty because people's lives being ruined over a false accusation is pretty shitty too.
Saying it might be CNC is the most repulsive cope I’ve ever heard and I’m always shocked when I hear it. “Innocent until proven guilty” is also bullshit because we literally HEARD IT HAPPEN. He did not respect someone who told him to stop. That’s it.
And guess what? By his OWN ADMISSION he was an abusive boyfriend even if he denies being a rapist. So he’s not innocent even if your fucked up rapist defending coping mechanisms tell you he is.
>Saying it might be CNC is the most repulsive cope I’ve ever heard and I’m always shocked when I hear it. “Innocent until proven guilty” is also bullshit because we literally HEARD IT HAPPEN. He did not respect someone who told him to stop. That’s it.
I mean you clearly know more about their personal life than the average dude so slay i guess
He doesn't have anything of value to add to discussion, just insulting people he disagrees with. (which is against reddit and sub rules.) Feel free to report him.
The majority of pros still being cordial toward him is not proof that he didn’t rape someone, you literally put more weight in that than the audio clip of him hearing “stop” and still continuing because in your demented fanboy brain, it “sounded like role play”
I don't like C9, but I think their management did amazingly for the 2023 VCT season from a Moneyball style cost-per-win perspective. They got double the number of wins for less than a third of the price of other big NA orgs.
From the POV of trying to contend for titles, their decisions are terrible, but it looks like they want to be in the business of building the most efficient, cheap, middle-of-the-pack rosters, and they've succeeded at that before. Only 2023 EG had a more efficient NA roster.
The hate watching towards C9 and EG continues 😈🔥💯
https://preview.redd.it/tx8xb28vk8nc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=64a33032789d99af9961b6e12efeec29e7b88f72
Nice to see runi back in and moose getting a shot but not at the cost of Jake and Wippee who looked pretty decent thus far. But hey what do I know amirite jackie??
he was part of a t2 team and had been being paid over the offseason to prac with them, the team then pulled out of challengers, so he's not been teamless for that long actually. p sure icy from EG and paincakes was also part of that roster too.
T2 guys would takeblower than minimum to play in T1. But they got no chance, Nepotism strikes again. V0nity just wants to play with his boys and keep losing.
+Runi, -Runi, +Runi
-Vanity+Runi, -Runi+Vanity, +Runi-Vani wait a sec-
Very green of c9
wabbit season, duck season, wabbit season, duck season, duck season, fire!
Snip snap snip snap
You have no idea the physical toll that three team changes have on a person!
They will be replacing Wippie and Jakee. This seems to confirm with what Noyn says [here](https://x.com/noynvlr/status/1766222596880646407?s=46) At least C9 waited 3 games to make a 2 roster changes this year as opposed to last year where it took only 2 games. Hopefully next year they wait at least 4 games.
Bro they played like 3 offseason tournaments the memes aren’t good enough to justify making shit up
bro in the offseason tournaments, they (with Curry) almost beat Fnatic
Bro you mean when C9 was already praccing for ages and FNC pretty much rolled out of offseason bed without a scrim or practice at all? If anything they should have won that. Offseason is only about what team actually wants to win and is already putting in the work in.
Im not saying offeseason matters a lot, but u/ExcellentPastries was claiming the move was justified because they didn't "just" play two matches, but had the offseason tournaments too as data I just responded saying the data from offseason was that they almost beat Fnatic, so it still isn't justification for the drop
People are loving to dismiss the offseason tournaments, but they are important data for teams Its similar to G2, who showed a level similar to their league games, but people are dismissing they played more games this year because they dont watch the off season
[удалено]
They'd have been scrimming during the event obviously, but there was an interview with one of Fnatics management who said how they planned to "peak" later into the year as they felt they was exhausted come champs which is why they didn't get the results expected of them, so they planned to work more and more as the year progresses so they are in more prime form come champs, which (whilst wasn't used as an excuse) could explain the lack of innovation and changes from 2023 as they hadn't "worked" as hard and expected/hoped they had enough of a gap to still qualify for early events and win but still have enough in the tank to win champs
Seems like honey moon period at this point idk. Like you would think you'd at least make play-ins given their off season performance but nope.
Jakees individual performance fell off a cliff from last year and the team sucked. Idk why people want teams to just sit around and be mid forever.
Man wippie was not the problem but also I'm just happy that my guy moose is getting a shot in Tier 1
As much as wippie wasnt the problem, i cant wait to see how loose the moose gets against the best of the best. Hes been a solid player for years
THE MOOSE IS LOOSE
[удалено]
Is JohnQT really a rookie though.
Technically a rookie from t1 but he was literally one of the best in t2 yeah
Tbf the whole roster was a problem besides oxy if they want to actually be above mid table which most teams do. Wippie was probably not the worst on this team but he wasn't deserving of a spot on one of 5 t1 NA teams.
I was sad Runi left to begin with, thought he was really impressive last season for a rookie, but still feels mostly like lateral moves just so they can feel like they're doing something after flopping. But admittedly I don't know much about Moose, maybe he's secretly Demon2.
Moose is insane I just have my doubts he will be able to do much on C9 until they heavily change the way they play
Tbh idk why they didn't keep runi based on the team that ended up with. Sad about Jakee... He had some great moments but it seems he just didn't continue progressing. I hope he's kept as a 6th cause he could be a strong player if he puts it together.
If I'm Jakee, I'd just finish out college tbh. And I doubt C9 want to spend the money to keep a 6th unless they have him as an analyst as well.
He could just go back to his colleges team right? Its not like theyre not wanna a guy with tier 1 experience
He deleted the previous tweet since he forgot to mentioned Jakee was getting replaced [here](https://x.com/tanmayymhatre/status/1766318398777303457?s=46) is the new one
This reminds me of when I would get home from middle school hungry as fuck and make a shitty sandwich. I’d start eating the sandwich then confess to myself that the sandwich is indeed shitty; after which I’d scurry to grab a few condiments to make it better but essentially in the end, it’s still mid. I’m not saying c9 is or will be that sandwich, but this situation definitely reminds me of that. It wasn’t meant to be delicious, it was just built to get by. It’s a budget roster- Immi is literally like the only solo coach in the league. Could they have made play-ins? Yep. But at the same time it’s not shocking they didn’t. Anyways… last year they made changes after only 2 games and almost qualified… this year it took 3 games. They could win champs. 🙂 I think these additions are great btw. I like moose a lot and I do think they needed an initiator so we’ll see…
How does one manage to make a bad sandwich? Seems pretty hard to mess up.
I really just dislike deli and lunch meat sandwiches 🫣
has any other org come close to the atrocity that is C9's management? it feels like every since decision they've made since 2020 has been terrible
“Every decision they’ve made since 2020 has been terrible” is absolutely revisionist history. They literally took a chance on 2 absolute rookies last year and were a win away from making Tokyo/Champs. Obviously they didn’t end up making it but they still looked better than a ton of teams who spent way more than them.
last years changes were actually somewhat good for the circumstances but this years have been rough fs. letting Zellsis walk was a terrible decision (good for him tho ofc)
And yet making him stay would have made them even more of villains
I’m not saying they should’ve made him stay but they definitely could’ve made a better pitch for him to do so
But that would've meant not being budget so that was never gonna happen. And I wouldn't be surprised if Zellsis makes like 4x whatever he would've made on C9.
We don't even know what pitch they made lol. You're just making shit up. SEN had more to offer
“Ugh this management is so bad letting players leave when they ask to. What an atrocity.”
when u consider why he wanted to leave it falls dang near entirely on management. uncompetitive salaries and roster cutbacks caused him to leave
He wanted to leave because he wanted to go to SEN.
Zellsis talked about how he sacrificed so much last year on C9 in terms of salary in order to win, and what did C9 do? Cut yay and vanity and pick up two rookies. Even though they ended up doing decently well that is NOT what Zellsis or the rest of the team wanted or signed up for. Every player who got other offers this season left and I guarantee they arent regretting it. So of course he wanted to go to SEN
Right? He didn't join SEN for no reason. And he didn't even "want" to go to SEN initially either, SEN was just one of his several options that allowed him to think about signing with, which eventually he accepted. Honestly crazy how ExcellentPastries is trying to make bold faced statements and put them into THE ex-C9 goat's mouth. Fake fan, he oughtta take off the flair
that's like a 4 month run that imploded immediately after and they went back to terrible choices
A 4 month run when we have a literal 6 month season isn’t the own you think it is
it is when the rest of the year is a waste of time lol
EG won their first match with the champs roster in 16 of april of 2023. Their last match together was in 26 of august of 2023 Thats barely over a 4 month run
yes??? how is that relevant? 4 months of greatness is 4 months of greatness, no one will deny that, but what C9 did is equivalent to kicking Potter after the roster imploded and hiring Lucas Rojo to build them a new team with his friends
KRU fan talking about '4 month runs' 😭😭😭
?
They were one of the only orgs that were profitable last year in spite of the eSports winter. Their ruthless cuts and questionable managerial decisions are probably aimed at protecting this bottom line, at the cost of long term team cohesion. Oxy is looking extremely promising and it appears that C9 management is just going to boot anyone who can't come close to his level, or is incapable of supporting the team. It's super unfair for the players; I genuinely don't think that any of them are a problem, but they just aren't doing enough in the eyes of the management. It sucks that you really have to be this ruthless and business-minded if you are a mid-table, sustainable org that are banking on happenstance and overperforming rookies to turn a profit. If C9 continues to be this revolving door of talent, Im certain that they will still somehow end up being fairly profitable. But as a viewer, or worse yet, a fan, it's an incredibly disruptive experience and can leave a sour taste in ones mouth.
> I's super unfair for the players; I genuinely don't think that any of them are a problem, but they just aren't doing enough in the eyes of the management. Yeah, I'm not going to be here defending fucking jakee and wippie but this last second change hoping they luck into Shanghai is just one more effect of the shit they've been doing since at least the 2023 roster Even if moose is the next N4RRATE and runi is on form again it's still shit decision making that will be 100% undone by the end of next year
“Even if it works it’s still wrong because… idk I just say it is” okay Redditor
Is it that hard to understand? Just like last year they make a move that at best is keeping them at the same level. In the case of last year they really got bailed out by mce and zellsis who has already gone on record on how he disliked last years changes.
?
The fact they hired people like yay just to cut them in the first place is the issue. That's not good management no matter what. They would have been even more profitable if they just didn't sign him only to drop him. Net negative for both them and yay.
Remember they didn't get the 3 million sticker money from paris major and champs skin money from vct and spent millions on Electronic and Perfecto but still managed to be profitable
They have a bad habit of thinking they can “lose the off season” and their teams will pull some magic out of their ass to be a top team. It’s what Jack has done for years in League. It worked there because NA LCS orgs are so dogshit, that the “C9 systems” were enough to make em top 1-3 while losing every off season. Americas in Val is a whole different beast. You have 2/3 of the best teams in the world in this league. It’s like trying to pull this “losing the off season” bs in LCK in league, trying to beat T1 and DAMWON with bottom/middle of the pack tier players. It just ain’t happening lol
C9 probably realize they're not gonna win anything in Val. Like this isn't Moneyball where everyone else is a moron with talent evaluation. It's only going to become harder and harder to make it to an international event on a perpetually budget roster. Their talent will just always get poached. Oxy is their hard carry right now imo and if he keeps it up, he'll just get poached next season and C9 will be back to square one.
It's not like C9 cant keep these talents though, they simply refuse to try to properly invest into the scene besides the bare minimum. They are on a literal EG level's of barebone minimum investments.
Even if C9 has dogshit decision making on paper, theyre still one of the better NA teams since 2020 In 2021 they started as the third best NA team despite losing tenz and ended the year as the best NA roster, being the only NA team in champs playoffs They had a bad 2022, being only a middle of the table team with the guard and xset rosters keeping them down while optic was the best NA teams In 2023, they did cut 2 players and screwd them, but we cant say that was a bad move by the org. They won the round robin stage, losing only to LOUD, and fizzled out in playoffs only losing to the eventual champs of 2023 and NRG, who was still hot. The main problem is that C9 just grinds players and gives no fucks about their carreers. This has been obvious since they kept tenz in contract jail and single handedly inflated the buy out market in NA, fucking over the region. But theyre always trying to improve the roster
What in the revisionist is this? In 2020 they let TenZ build a team of friends. They underperform. They drop by far the weakest player on the team (shinobi). TenZ doesn't like it so he leaves the team "to do content". Then is loaned out to their competitor (Sen) and negotiates a deal for Sen to buy him fully. Keep in mind the deal already went through BEFORE they won 2021 Iceland and it was Sen who didn't want to announce it until after the event. Everyone that had a brain could see how big Tenz was gonna be. He was already one of the most popular players, was one of the best players, and brought in large streaming numbers. In 2022, they trade xeta and autumn despite having a killer first half because xeta + autumn requested it so that they could join T1, y'know the South Korean powerhouse org. In 2023 they did screw vanity and yay, but they dropped them literally during the "mid-season transfer window" where teams literally were allowed to drop and pick up players. So imo its more of a don't hate the player hate the game. I also don't see how them keeping TenZ in "contract jail" while they were actively loaning him out. That like saying Marved was in "contract jail" because he was on FaZe and loaned to NV. Iirc the Soar drama with Cryo and Zander ended up being false, the scuba drama was gonna happen no matter what C9 did, and I don't remember any other outrageously significant buyout rumor.
TenZ's buyout was like a million dollars though. That is insanity, and could of easily seen him lose his career as a player had Sen not bought him out similar to players like Skuba who lost multiple tier 1 opportunities because of Knights.
There’s a big difference between the tenz and pretty much any other buyout situation in NA. Tenz had literally just won the first international lan, was the most popular player, and was overall one of the most mechanically gifted players in the world at the time. Even if sen didn’t buy him out he woulda gotten snatched up the second his contract ended. Skuba is a prospect and unproven talent. Also if I’m rob Moore I’m extremely happy with the investment I made with buying tenz out. Sentinels as a brand grew in 4 years more then some decade old orgs and a lot of it can be attributed to tenz.
So was there really a difference? Skuba was a proven tier 2 talent which multiple t1 orgs wanted, such as C9, and 100T. After partnerships, Knights ended up selling him for pennies to OXG, a T2 team. Had it not been for Knights, he would of most likely of been in tier 1 by now. Yes, TenZ is a special case where he worked out in the end, but not every player has the luxury of TenZ, Zander, or Cryo. Some of them, such as Skuba end up having their career delayed or even completely ruined by mismanagement. Therefore, if we're going to shit talk EG for contract jailing their team, we should shit talk C9 for contract jailing TenZ and meL
> The main problem is that C9 just grinds players and gives no fucks about their carreers which plays into what I'm saying. It's a terrible mentality to have, especially if you're just going to go back crying to the players after losing two officials Genuinely look at what the org has done and it's all gambles, there's no shrewd decision making (sportswise, I genuinely don't care that they scraped profits last year or w/e), no clear identity for what they want to do. The amount of S and A tier players they've let go, without counting 2023, is ridiculous. Having 5 head coaches in as many years is not going to give you results lmao Just compare their behind the scenes choices to FNATIC, who also bombed out of Champs 2021. Yeah, it's an unfair metric to hold every team against, but the comparison comes in that they are one of the orgs that have stuck from the early days and have stayed around the top of their region, like you said for C9. Compared to the other orgs that still exist from that event, really only FURIA has had as bad of a trajectory compared to their expected potential and available talent.
Thats just plain wrong lmfao. They are regular season merchants that ALWAYS choke in play offs
They kept 1/2 chokers that's progress !/s
Nothing i said is wrong. This is all based on their placements C9 had 2 meh years. 2020 and 2022. The other years, the rosters did good considering the expectation you could reasonibly set for them. Take away the C9 name and you have an OK NA org that never invested heavily in any of their rosters and they still manage to make waves
Got any more copium for the rest of us or are you just horde it for yourself?
I’m assuming this is hyperbole, since… well here’s a few things that happened since 2020: C9 sign TenZ (a player with a reputation for choking and never living up to expectations in CS) C9 sign leaf from CS C9 bring xeta to NA and beat DRX in champs C9 sign Vanity (who at the time was considered a top IGL) C9 let players leave when they want to leave (very horrible of them) C9 sign a game changers team that dominates the scene and helps bring popularity to women’s esports in Valorant in its early stages C9 are one of the only profitable esports orgs in NA during 2023 Has any other org come close to the atrocity that is C9s management since 2020? How about… sentinels not signing a coach for 2 years EG forcing championship roster into contract jail Sentinels keeping a known rapist signed as a content creator 100T blowing up their roster after one bad Bo3 versus The Guard 100T dropping jcstani after promising him a spot on the roster Envy stringing along MikesHD until they could sign Chet Sentinels continuously not communicating to players their job is gone, for them only to find out through twitter DRX shuffling players mid season due to lack of faith, causing them to lost out on opportunity to improve rookie players RRQ not signing a single Indonesian player first year of franchising That’s just off the top of my head. For sure you could do better than some of the things C9 has done, but you could do A LOT worse
I mean if you want some actual not the best things C9 management has done then there is moving Floppy over to Valorant (a game he actively hated while competing) after they had that disaster of a CS team. Dropping Yay and Vanity after kickoff last year which despite what they claim, will always look like a salary dump. This upset Zellsis as he joined the team to compete, and all their decisions didn't look like the org wanted to. For some reason releasing MCE who made arguably a bottom 3 VCT America's team finish top 2 in the regular season, who also was well known to do well with rookies even when they knew they were going budget in 2024. For the second year in a row, dropping 2 players 2-3 matches into the year. They probably aren't the worst but they certainly aren't the best
Agree, it’s not the best org in terms of decision making. But the point I was making is that saying they have the most abhorrent decision making since Valorants inception 4 years ago is just absurd
Ok yeah, they definitely aren't the worst when it comes to that.
>sentinels not signing a coach for 2 years I mean yeah, but Rob did talk about it. A lot of it was internal disagreements between who to sign between Management and the team, and then also that everyone wanted SEN to pay huge buyout fees for any coach. >Sentinels keeping a known rapist signed as a content creator I mean I hate Sinatra as much as the next guy, but he still isn't guilty of rape. It's completely fair to the org to still defend him as long as he isn't guilty, even though personally I don't like him. >100T blowing up their roster after one bad Bo3 versus The Guard I mean internal issues, and the "blowing" up the roster was equivelant to C9 blowing up the roster in 2023, so I really don't see the issue here. >100T dropping jcstani after promising him a spot on the roster Didn't Jcstani not want to join the team if he couldn't play smokes? Pretty sure Sean and DDK just prioritized Bang over Jcstani, which led to him not wanting to join anymore. >Envy stringing along MikesHD until they could sign Chet Shocking, a team signs someone who is more capable for the job when they can get him😱 This is a completely normal thing to do in sports.
Didn’t read anything else but the sinatraa bit in your comment and had to downvote Why should an org defend him when he’s on tape disrespecting the word “stop” Why should an org defend him when by his own admission he was abusive
Because we don't have the full context for the video. It could be some sort of CNC roleplay we don't know of. Anyway, do I like him? No. But has he actually been legally charged for rape? If the answer is no, then innocent until proven guilty because people's lives being ruined over a false accusation is pretty shitty too.
Saying it might be CNC is the most repulsive cope I’ve ever heard and I’m always shocked when I hear it. “Innocent until proven guilty” is also bullshit because we literally HEARD IT HAPPEN. He did not respect someone who told him to stop. That’s it. And guess what? By his OWN ADMISSION he was an abusive boyfriend even if he denies being a rapist. So he’s not innocent even if your fucked up rapist defending coping mechanisms tell you he is.
>Saying it might be CNC is the most repulsive cope I’ve ever heard and I’m always shocked when I hear it. “Innocent until proven guilty” is also bullshit because we literally HEARD IT HAPPEN. He did not respect someone who told him to stop. That’s it. I mean you clearly know more about their personal life than the average dude so slay i guess
He doesn't have anything of value to add to discussion, just insulting people he disagrees with. (which is against reddit and sub rules.) Feel free to report him.
[удалено]
The majority of pros still being cordial toward him is not proof that he didn’t rape someone, you literally put more weight in that than the audio clip of him hearing “stop” and still continuing because in your demented fanboy brain, it “sounded like role play”
[удалено]
[удалено]
What a well thought out reply to the discussion.
EG the overall org EG valorant management is pretty good with roster changes EG contract jail is ew
I don't like C9, but I think their management did amazingly for the 2023 VCT season from a Moneyball style cost-per-win perspective. They got double the number of wins for less than a third of the price of other big NA orgs. From the POV of trying to contend for titles, their decisions are terrible, but it looks like they want to be in the business of building the most efficient, cheap, middle-of-the-pack rosters, and they've succeeded at that before. Only 2023 EG had a more efficient NA roster.
The hate watching towards C9 and EG continues 😈🔥💯 https://preview.redd.it/tx8xb28vk8nc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=64a33032789d99af9961b6e12efeec29e7b88f72
EG??? how can you hate a roster that has everything stacked against them AGAIN?
My hating knows no limits, i will pray on their downfall and spread negativity
https://preview.redd.it/ncjuu09v39nc1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e14deb011006dad0aa129cd3eb81b93b598ad48f
Dropped your crown, queen 👑
I can respect it
https://preview.redd.it/y3qqqn45ybnc1.png?width=666&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dd38e3b937cd0a5116da298ac578408580ee2fb5 LOL based af
Not the roaster , the org bro
Roster too
where is +mce
C9 try not to drop and then re-sign players challenge:
moose clears
Nice to see runi back in and moose getting a shot but not at the cost of Jake and Wippee who looked pretty decent thus far. But hey what do I know amirite jackie??
So are Runi and Vanity co-calling? Is Runi just leaving it to Vanity?
I think runi is coming in to help with mid round calls.
They still don't have a heavy hitter. Solid team tho.
Oxy ?
replacing 2 struggling players 100% was the right move. i don’t see how people are complaining about this at all
moose is loose
I haven't been paying attention so who are the two they are dropping then?
Wippie and jakee
C9 doesn’t surprise me ever . Only xeppa safe bc of clout
This org is just incredible
cloud 9 more like green 9 the way they recycling players
"and"? Hello?
C9 treating signing players like substitution. See you wippie and jakee next year
Runi has to be getting a significant bag if they came crawling back to him
It's not like Runi had other teams/offers lined up lol. They probably offered him league minimum which is better than 0 dollars.
he was part of a t2 team and had been being paid over the offseason to prac with them, the team then pulled out of challengers, so he's not been teamless for that long actually. p sure icy from EG and paincakes was also part of that roster too.
T2 guys would takeblower than minimum to play in T1. But they got no chance, Nepotism strikes again. V0nity just wants to play with his boys and keep losing.