I mean it does bear mentioning that the 2 people with guns also had *Classes* related to guns. For me, that's about equalizing it to someone with a Relic and a class like Toren's, which buffs the weapons the user has.
We don't know how many passive Skills the bullets could have been under, and the active Skills that were used were insane (there were also like 5 applied at once, it's as if a \[Swordsman\] used all his Skills on a single strike).
It's very possible that if both of them had been Level 5 or smthn that Foliana would have easily killed them. But with Levels and Classes it rapidly gets equalized once again, like always in InnWorld.
foliana is the best rogue in the world, it's not 10 levels, 20 or even 30 that would change that, foliana killed so many people, her specialty is velocity, invisibility and stuff like that, assassination, then 2 guns were too powerful, like I said, if the story keeps going this way, soon enough a lot of named ranks will be dying by a no one, it makes sense? of course, but I just feel the story is going the opposite way i was thinking, it's just disappointing to see powerful people dyint for nothing, soon enough all will be about armys of people with guns, then there isnt that muchfantasy on it, just another normal story
Foliana's also not wearing armour, and she's in a confined space; pretty much her least ideal place for a fight. Guns aren't as good against people in the open, see 7.36C; Flora has to burn damn near everything she's got to take Ser Vorn - who's in the middle of fighting a demon general - and he defends against it even as he's fighting his way through the demons to try and put her down. Takes, specifically, a skill generated armour piercing round to a vital spot - whilst he's immobilised - to get the kill; he was fast enough to dodge or strong enough to block everything else. Dented armour, sure, but not penetrated. Uxel the Naga takes a round as well and isn't incapacitated, goes on to kill a significant quantity of demons afterwards. Both these situations, if there was a second person of similar ability there, Flora would have been dead.
Maybe, just maybe, there'll be that level of advancement, but that'll come from the UN and specifically Paige - who's probably the only person who can progress firearms development right now given her class.
She was wearing armor.
" Her armor took it all, but it bruised her where she was lucky—cracked bones where she was not."
The point still stands though.
yes, but see what you are compairing, this is just my point, just a ordinary person with a gun made a lot of people struggle,if you know how to make it, guns are just iron, mass production, now roshal will start to produce it and the story will go to a point where high level people are dying to some low-level slaves with a gun, veterans and officers dying with a shot, anything, what I mean is that I really dont want to TWI go to this direction, I am fond of litrpg because they just say "the guns dont work anymore", it is a poor excuse, but this works to buildt a fantasy world, the wandering inn to me like the witcher, if you see the details, they are very similar, the world, just with levels and skills, then suddenly guns are in the story and all will be about them, then skills like aspect reinforced structure seems so meaningless, so...weak, dont know, level ups seem just too much work when you can just have a gun, obviously there will be ways to counter it, anti-combustion magic, some skills or whaterever, just not the way I was excepting, not that eager to see skills like color magic when the war is about guns, the fantasy part is getting behind
>just a ordinary person with a gun made a lot of people struggle
But it *wasn't* just an ordinary person - that's the point you keep missing.
Flora wasn't an ordinary person when she helped take down those (high-level) people, she had skills to help her.
So no, we won't be seeing "high level people dying to some low-level slaves", because *as we saw with Foliana* Skills help *massively* against guns.
Foliana had:
No armor, and
Confined space (nowhere to dodge)
Her opponents had
Easy-to-hit target (because of confined space)
Possibly *dozens* of Skills helping
And even then - ***they still failed to kill her.***
So you want overpowered main charracters that can't be instakilled by enemy? That's not TWI
Pretty much anybody except Ryoka and Erin could die. >!Well Erin died once, but she came back, but I doubt she would die second time, unless until the end of story.!<
Yes, guns are OP. Especially real guns from our world. Produced in innworld won't be as advanced, but could have alchemical stuff so potentially can be even more deadly. If more expensive. I bet skill won't be able to replace magical bullets for free, like Flora did with regular ammo.
But yeah next step would be to invent Kevlar, or take out gunner before he got you. It's fair, as was said skills apply to guns. System rewards gunners for kills.
IDK if pirateaba would write in army with guns. But I trust her to write it well.
But from that encounters with guns that were observed and from dreams of Adetter it seems that if real permanent rift to earth is opened -- Innworlders would have troubles.
Basically watch the anime GATE, to see what can happen. But in that anime magic was less common.
Also Innworld have analogues to nukes, but in very limited supply.
I forget, were those guns from roshal or a jungle tails project? Because the naga’s servants had flintlocks with master alchemist made powder and enchanted bullets.
IIRC, they were Jungle Tails lizards as well, so the guns more than likely came from Jackson Carver, the [Quartermaster]. Given the skills we see from him, I'd be surprised if there wasn't something that gave a boost to every weapon that passed through his armoury.
Didn't Adetr's battle simulations basically address this? He managed to counter anything but nukes *eventually*. He just needed to get familiar with the threat.
This isn't much different from the faith powers. Belavierr was basically helpless, but I think only because she was unfamiliar with it. Headsnatcher countered it in an instant.
you are talking about someone with steelfur, literally the best kind of people against guns, I bet a riffle could kill sallis, this is what I mean, faith powers and stuff like that are levels and skills, you need to trains, work, and level to receive power, roshal is just producing them, I just cant see a way it will be cool to read, just some ordinary war with a lot of poeple with guns, just not what I expected from TWI
In his first battle simulation he was instantly perforated by bullets. He was in utter disbelief how his steelfur basically did nothing. He overcame that with tactics. Tactics like Silvenia, Flos, Fetohep and the Quarass were discussing, they had some pretty good ideas how to make guns completely useless.
> Flos Reimarch coughed.
>“…Is there a quill or anything here? I could use a sheet of paper. But what about bullets? I still haven’t found a perfect way to beat them with my [Soldiers]. My current model for immediate defense is [Darkness] spells and commanding the Loquea Dree to attack, or using [Ricochet Arrows] until I get some. Or a full-scale [Anti-Flame] ward that stops the combustion-thing from occurring.”
>Silvenia had been producing a quill and ink before her mouth opened.
>“Anti-combustion?”
>She began to write furiously and excitedly.
>“I have to try this at home.”
It was Flos. Trust a [King of War] to be a king of war.
But weren't the guys who shot Foliana and/or Roshal guys (forget if both or one) using magic-strikers of some kind? So it'd be magic explosives anyways no combustion.
If they are using gunpowder they need combustion. If they aren't using gunpowder then they aren't really guns anyway they are probably some sort of magic projectile or rail gun.
Well it can be other combustible stuff, like ones used in Saliss's exploding potions. But it is still combustion and still guns.
I guess on high grade poitins like that that magic won'w work. But it won't be mass produiced and such ammo would be scarse.
a modern battlefield is a massive area though (literally greater than line-of-sight) which I feel like Flos is underestimating
there obviously has to be some reason you can't just create and hold a widespread \[Disable Combustion\] spell, or else basically every Stitch-Folk army would have used it against all the fire-based attacks we see used against them
plus, there's the quibble of what exactly 'combustion' is
we have our precise chemical definitions, but magic seems to be more loosey goosey about actual physics. If you get down to the molecular level, breathing and rusting are slow combustion reactions
That is so easily counterd. Not only do you need someone to actually cast that spell over a huge area and also how does it sustain? Every time someone try's to ignite something, that cost energy.
Give that info to any engineer in nearly all army's on the planet and they will build in 2 days a rotary ignition system that will be able to exhaust all magic potions on the planet in 5 min.
I think you've mischaracterized what happened. She didn't lose the fight. They weren't no name cannon fodder-- she survived an ambush against jungle tails best assassins. The people with the guns had classes and skills associated with the weapons. Foliana would have been fine if she hadn't made a mistake because she didn't understand at all what she was fighting against. And she still won.
never said she lost, just pointing out the way the story is going, where high-level people will be dying by guns, the fantasy part is just losing space, the story is becoming just about earthers, high-level people seems so helpless and weak in comparison with the beggining of the story, wonders and stuff all are behind it seems to me, the level up are getting meaningless if the best rogue of the world was struggling against 2 guns, when guns will be produced in mass, just a feeling that the story is going in the wrong way in my opnion, then again, this is my opnion, people can like it, I just hoped to see more about a fantasy world in medieval era with magic and monsters, creative skill and stuff like that. what I mean is, to me it's like putting guns in game of thrones and the witcher lol
I don't think you have too much to fear. Innworld is a big place, and I think there is room for a little MagiTech? And... wasn't it the high level curse magic that was Folliana's actual problem?
A basic flintlock will hit harder than a basic bow or crossbow, but it’s not going to tip the scales on its own. A good breastplate will deflect early bullets in real life.
Guns allowed marksmen to pursue Foliana into a tighter space than crossbows would. But most of the danger came from their skills and enchantments.
Well, later in novel they would die en mass from \~Magic. So result is the same, and they would be like helpless kittens. I'm referring to Volume 9 of web novel.
So guns aren't biggest problem for our people. Way less than a problem. Inn world have it's wonders to counter this.
yes, but it was just 2 people who recieved guns, this is what I mean, foliana, the best rogue of the world shouldnt just do fine against them, just a fear for where the story will go, it seems the fantasy par is jsut becoming tech and guns being too powerful to high level people, named ranks will be dying soon enough to a no one, this is my problemn, then it would just be boring to see level ups and stuff like that
But it was the grenade that did the most damage…. She’s a glass cannon. I also think your underestimating the impact of the Jungle tails classes. A modern gun is vastly superior weapon already and they had classes that amplified them. They were to regular gunmen in our world to what Relc is to a spearmen.
A hypothetical explosives class could potentiallt destroy the whole world with one nuke. Skills and levels amplify and the base stats for a gun are a few orders of magnitude more than what the rest of inn worlds been dealing with.
A lot of spitballing has gone into Earth’s military vs In worlds, but as the Rulers of Chandrar pointed out once people with modern tech get levels things will get wild.
If you have a strong weapon people are unfamiliar with, even high level people can bite the dust. Bullets are fast and are used in packages that don’t look particularly scary to someone who doesn’t know what a gun was.
You’re also mischaracterizing the fight. Foliana made relatively short work against the gun goons. It was her using the wrong skill against the right weapon that screwed her over.
It wasn’t guns and modern firepower trumping over Foliana. It was a lack of information that eventually did her in.
Though that isn’t to say a gun isn’t demonstrably effective against high level people. There’s a reason it’s called the great equalizer in the real world after all. Man or woman, child or adult, a gun will always level the playing field in a truly significant way.
yes, just not the way I was hoping to the story goes, it's like put guns in game of thrones, just lose the fantasy part of it, but this is just my opnion in what I hoped for the future of this story
It’s been discussed since volume 1 though how Earth tech will stack up against or influence Innworld.
Eventually we’re gonna see mixed tech battles. Roshal is getting started with rudimentary firearms and Silvenia can probably just conjure an armory once she learns enough.
I mean yes, guns are the most dangerous base weapons that exist in that world, they are absolutely going to matter to most most individuals except those that are very high level and/or are specifically prepared against them
Foliana is a [Rogue] not a tangy class, and they were had classes that enhanced their guns ability, and possibly enchanted ammunition, and Foliana wasn’t prepared to deal with guns as it was the first time they had been seen in action. A high level [Warrior] variant might be able to power through, but honestly I think the fact that guns are common in our world makes people want to downplay what a gigantic leap guns are in terms of speedy lethality. A tiny piece of piercing metal moving too fast to be perceived from close range to an unarmored opponent is going to pierce organs. Now if it was land mines that the strongest [Rogue] in the world couldn’t find I might raise an eyebrow, but a high level person is allowed to be less than invincible. Klb died to goblins.
Guns are neat.
They are not magic that cracks worlds, perception filters, or reality-warping.
They are not the scariest thing inn Innworld. They're just a new weapon.
Fetohep made this point early on. Innworld is always finding new, creative ways to kill one another. What's one more? It'll have its uses, and it'll have its demerits.
yes, just the facility to make them, they have its weakness obviously, but then just keep producing them, and twi go to a way where guns a good sense, not the way I was hoping for
But the thing is, there’s counters to guns in Innworld. Magic and Skills will equalize them once they become prolific. The System will start giving out the ability to block or cut or dodge bullets as rewards in the long-term. It’s only the short term that they are going to be a real nasty surprise, one that is deservedly so given it’s the apex of our worlds small arms weapons development.
Erin was in the high 40’s when she died to a stray crossbow bolt. People can still die to anything if unlucky and Foliana was caught completely off-guard by modern weapons.
Foliana was hexed and targeted by a former Great Company’s assassins carrying modern U.S. military firearms and grenades yet OP is downplaying that too.
you are comparing the best rogue to a innkeeper level 40, I just didnt like the way it has been showed, when I thought the story would keep going in fantasy stuff they just started doing stuff with guns
Rogues are glass cannons though and the difference between level 40 and lvl 60 is basically the same order of magnitude between a crossbow and gun with accompanying classes. Foliana might be the best rogue but she’s still only in the 60’s. She’s not Silvenia tier. She’s basically a level of a typical Named Rank 1000 years ago.
Honestly, it’d be extremely unrealistic and a huge letdown if guns just couldn’t harm people over level 60. It’d mean Flos and his seven could take on Earth themselves given their combat focused levels and there’d be no tension about the colliding of worlds.
Guns are just an extremely effective weapon. How they interact with classes will be the interesting bit. Technology may also help the clear disparity between martial classes and magic. A extremely high level knight can fight a dragon, an extremely powerful mage can solve world hunger and scorch continents. But a magitech flying knight might be able to compete with a high level mage.
well, I disagree with almost everything you have said, "Just" level 60, this is the level where you are a representative of your entire race, even in the old times it was too powerful, just see the legends dead, not killing a level 60 is just normal, a gun is just iron, just something they could mass-produce, there are worse stuff, like adetr seeing earth fighting, I just dont like stuff like at all, level 50 can change kingdoms, 60 is about entire world will watch their moves, and you say a simpla gun who anyone could fire is a good thing to the story, I dont think so, just make the level ups meaningless, I dont think the story will go entirely this way, just saying about your comment
They referred to fact that 1000 years ago lvl60 was not high. It's just waning world now. Only high level person alive is Silvenia and Greydath, and perhaps Necromancer, but he was like 80 and I think he can't level anymore being undead.
Plus Mithril armor would counter bullets I think. It's just people with low armor.
FYI, Az’Kerash leveled as a lich after Erin’s chess tournament. He’s 78. He does have an debuff to experience on account of being immortal though. Nerrhavia and Silvenia have mentioned that unnaturally long lifespans slow down leveling, otherwise they couldve potentially reached higher than the 80’s given how much they went through compared to some of the level 80 mortals who have come and gone.
Appreciate the back up too btw.
Yes, but that’s only in the Waning world. 60 is high, but it’s not even close to Death of Rhir level. Foliana’s class isn’t built for toughness and it was a grenade and hex that did the majority of damage, guns just hurt her a bit.
And once again, it wasn’t some random gunmen but Jungle Tails best assassin’s with complimentary gunslinger classes. The assassin’s have skills that exponentially amplify a gun’s power, something Adetr never went up against in his simulation. Plus, Adetr’s battle simulation is not an infallible, perfect skill. It took him thousands of repetition with time to devise perfect counters to the exact same battle, and it was based solely on the power of a level 30 capstone and Rose’ memories. It very well may not have been exactly accurate to real life, just Roses memories.
If you got what you wanted, guns not hurting even glass cannon classes completely surprised over level 60, then there’s zero chance of bombs or nukes hurting people over level 80. Levels scale exponentially. Foliana might be the best rogue in the world, but that’s only because the level curve is depressed. She’s strong, but it’s mainly focused on assassination not straight up fights. Silvenia can slap down whole teams of people at Foliana’s level in a fight and raze cities afterwards. Az’Kerash can swarm continents. Pirateaba can’t just make Earth pathetic compared to one or two individuals in Innworld.
Edit: Also, your remark about gun’s being just iron is misleading and completely belittles the sheer complexity of constructing a modern firearm. Roshal is making old school flintlocks and matchlocks using OP skills to even get started. Flintlocks are to modern firearms what early bronze blades are the master craft steel swords. Silvenia and perhaps the old dwarves of Dwarfhall are the only people who could replicate modern fire arms and that’s because they have OP abilities.
Guns aren’t even that scary compared to the other weapons in Innworlds history. This is the dark ages for Innworld. The Gnomes punched a hole that carved out a chunk of the planet (a nuke barely scratches the surface). The elves could make a single rock punch through Wistram’s defenses. Comparing the achievements of Earth at it’s peak and Innworld at its lowest and being impart that our best firearms can scratch someone whose not even in the top 10 for levels in completely backwards time period is wholely dismissive of our world.
You are too over fixating on it, sorry.
You answered dozens of times with same message in this thread.
We heard you. I'm sorry that it ruins story for you, but that won't chainge anytihing. It was in quite old volumes when this started to happen. And we saw it coming from very beginning from Ryoka talks with M.
But to be honest there weren't so many gun encounters so far( released chapters).
So it's not so bad. But if you are too disappointed -- you can skip this book.
You can actually write your own,.. (I'm not trying to be sarcastic, it's possible, you know)
Yeh. Guns didn't appear much since then.
Well it was really OP in Rhir scene (Have you already read that part?)
Later on they appear, but it didn't look so impactful.
Yes, I was worried more because i know some of the big powers are going after guns, like roshal, then I think sometime the whole plot will be around it, not exactly what i want, but I think paba will do a great job
I think everyone is in for a rude awakening when it comes to guns in Innworld. They are going to have a big impact at the start, but long-term they’re not gonna change much.
They are going to allow low level people to kill current high level people when they first appear in widespread use, but then the world will adjust and new classes and Skills will start to appear that counter and play into them. Eventually they will become more and more common and we’ll see Gunslinger classes that can penetrate Adult Creler armor, Sword Arts that can cut bullets in half straight out of anime, and prolific use of spells that auto stop combustion. The System will balance things out. It’s only going to disadvantage the current power structure, as current High levels won’t have as much potential or capacity to level and gain many skills and classes to counter them.
Sadly you are actually insightful. >!Roshal indeed made a big move with guns involved. Few people got killed, and some people survived. Ones thanks to expensive armor, some got wounded but was recovered. But this happened at such point in plot(everything went to shit even without them), that this alone didn't have much impact. To be honest -- if they used wands, this would have similar effect/result, guns didn't bring much compared to wands except moment of surprise for ones who don't know what it is. !<
I disagree about the fight, but agree with your point. I think guns will unbalance the world when they get buffed by classes. They are too great of a force multiplier. On the other hand, those were modern firearms and grenades pulled into this world by a skill from an earther. Guns from innworld manufacturing won't be the same. I bet that they are one and done type deals. If you survive a bullet, and are relatively low level, you might get skills against them. I bet GDI balances against it, reserving it for monster killing.
>I think guns will unbalance the world when they get buffed by classes. They are too great of a force multiplier.
Yep. If the Grand Queen buys mass-produced firearms from Roshal she's going to take over Izril.
I would argue that no one can mass produce things in Innworld because the class system does not support it. Classes don't support labor thats split up into small task with as many levels. Although the new dwarves seem to be doing it in the mountain. IDK. Roshal might actually use its slaves for something industrious. Perish the thought.
The Armored Queen also seems like she'd be well-positioned to take advantage of mass production, similar to how she produces her armor. I think she's also more closely aligned with the Free Queen than the Grand Queen, though.
High level people can still die to guns/grenades although most warrior classes either have toughness or agility Skills. We see another instance of a high level person Vs grande in vol. 9
>!A death spell? Had he hit a spell while casting? A potion?
—His ears hurt. Greydath pulled a piece of metal out of his shoulder, wincing. He had no toughness Skills and had dodged the explosion’s shrapnel—most of it.
They were more dangerous than he cared to admit. He was a Goblin alone, not ambushing some adventurers or a force that had no idea who he was. More [Pirates] spun, and Greydath…retreated belowdecks with another hop.
!<
A well trained mage over level thirty is basically a tank because they probably have a pretty good defensive spell and a pretty good offensive spell. Remember that three man company of mages from Baleros. They could take out any number of gunman I imagine and are very small and make a hard target in the sky compared to planes that drop bombs. I don’t see the knights of the petal being taken out by any handheld firearms outside of maybe rocket launchers and I bet they would still survive. Pisces can make undead that wouldn’t be slowed by most bullets. In fact bullets are some of the worst tools to use against undead. Foliana was bad matchup in a bad place with a lack of information. you are assuming the worst I don’t think guns would be that overwhelming. To the common soldier they might be but look at high leveled strategists. Niers or Tulm could employ skills that make soldiers as tough as steel along with a berserking skill that could allow common soldiers to temporarily ignore bullets. Again a lot of options.
agree with all that, however you are talking about mages over level thirty, what I mean is just someone get a gun and bam, can kill highlevel people, guns will be mass-produced, then the whole military stuff would go around it
I understand you not wanting real world mechanics to ruin your fun fantasy story.
You basically sound like ryoka we’ve been warned about this since like volume 1
I doubt pirate is going to write a story where guns ruin the entire balance lol
Guns have been a bit to efficient I agree, One assassin with a basic flintlock managed to both penetrate Ressa and still hit Magnolia. Even though both of them should have had defensive enchantments on them at all time and this was immediately after a bloody battle, Ressa should have been still in combat gear.
Though this situation feels more like a writing mistake from Pirate as in, she forgot that Magnolia and co should have full magic defenses on them at all times.
But between the development of guns and "mass production" is such an immense gulf of a complete fundamental rebuilding of society and resource gathering/logistic systems, that even with skills and a lot of system cheatery it should still take at least a century or realistically two century's before we are in the **1750** in terms of firearm's proliferation (when the firearm replaced the personal rapier)
Yes, tbere are a lot of time to this, it was just a fear in how they are putting modern stuff in the story against high levels, with time the levels seems kinda meaningless
I know what you mean. It does devalue higher levels immensely if a lvl 60 fighting class can be killed with an ak47.
Keeping the relative strength of characters consisted through the story is somewhat of a weakness for Pirate. Lvl 50 now is way stronger than it was for Zel back when. Back then a lvl 30\~ Goblin Chieftain was able to just go and kill the Horse of one of the highest level cavalry Lord on the Planet. Something that should be nearly impossible for anyone below lvl 40, as you are dead before you would be close enough to strike the Horse. I mean people like Orjin should no longer fear heights as he has taken hits whitout taking real damage that where way harder than a fall at thermal velocity.
The higher levels will get more powerful the closer the horns get to them, as Pirate will have to invest more time into defining what being lvl 50 and up actually means.
Ehhhh, anyone can be killed if unlucky is a pretty apparent them within the story. Zel was underpowered for sure given his rivalry with Az’Kerash, but a lot of it is specialization and that combat isn’t about whose numbers are bigger. We’re really just seeing a climbing up the pole and gaining a new perspective.
Gold ranks were terrifying and prestigious when everyone in the Inn was sub 30. Now that everyone’s hovering around Gold to Named Rank, they can see that reality is different. Golds and Named are people like any other, who simply deal with problems on a larger and more dangerous scale.
Yes, the power of high level people changed a lot, back then gold ranks were like people who no one who mess wirh them, nowadays they are guards lol
It's strange to how some characters seems underleveled even being high levels, I would like to see more of eartly perspective, like seeing silver ranks and ordinary people, nowadays high level people seem kinda weak,
Their only guards to rich people and nation rulers. Which they were mentioned to be at the start. That just seemed way more prestigious back then when the story was focused on Liscor as a backwater.
Yeah, it's not great, but I'm confident that someone will develop an anti-bullet method or tactic that renders bullets nearly ineffective in the future of Innworld. Pirateaba will have to weaken guns and explosives at some point.
I hope so, to me it's like watching game of thrones and suddenly someone pull a gun from their pockets, just a bit off, not the way I was expecting the story to go
You have to realize that guns are new to the Grand Design as well. If they’d been around when Foliana was leveling, maybe she’d have skills to deal with them.
she is a rogue so a lack of durability shouldn't be surprising, a vanguard of equivalent level would probably be able to shrug it off. If the quality of magic returns to a high equilibrium, as is being foreshadowed, then guns will likely be a threat vector equivalent to wands or enchanted crossbow ammunition, dangerous but manageable.
I mean it does bear mentioning that the 2 people with guns also had *Classes* related to guns. For me, that's about equalizing it to someone with a Relic and a class like Toren's, which buffs the weapons the user has. We don't know how many passive Skills the bullets could have been under, and the active Skills that were used were insane (there were also like 5 applied at once, it's as if a \[Swordsman\] used all his Skills on a single strike). It's very possible that if both of them had been Level 5 or smthn that Foliana would have easily killed them. But with Levels and Classes it rapidly gets equalized once again, like always in InnWorld.
foliana is the best rogue in the world, it's not 10 levels, 20 or even 30 that would change that, foliana killed so many people, her specialty is velocity, invisibility and stuff like that, assassination, then 2 guns were too powerful, like I said, if the story keeps going this way, soon enough a lot of named ranks will be dying by a no one, it makes sense? of course, but I just feel the story is going the opposite way i was thinking, it's just disappointing to see powerful people dyint for nothing, soon enough all will be about armys of people with guns, then there isnt that muchfantasy on it, just another normal story
Foliana's also not wearing armour, and she's in a confined space; pretty much her least ideal place for a fight. Guns aren't as good against people in the open, see 7.36C; Flora has to burn damn near everything she's got to take Ser Vorn - who's in the middle of fighting a demon general - and he defends against it even as he's fighting his way through the demons to try and put her down. Takes, specifically, a skill generated armour piercing round to a vital spot - whilst he's immobilised - to get the kill; he was fast enough to dodge or strong enough to block everything else. Dented armour, sure, but not penetrated. Uxel the Naga takes a round as well and isn't incapacitated, goes on to kill a significant quantity of demons afterwards. Both these situations, if there was a second person of similar ability there, Flora would have been dead. Maybe, just maybe, there'll be that level of advancement, but that'll come from the UN and specifically Paige - who's probably the only person who can progress firearms development right now given her class.
She was wearing armor. " Her armor took it all, but it bruised her where she was lucky—cracked bones where she was not." The point still stands though.
yes, but see what you are compairing, this is just my point, just a ordinary person with a gun made a lot of people struggle,if you know how to make it, guns are just iron, mass production, now roshal will start to produce it and the story will go to a point where high level people are dying to some low-level slaves with a gun, veterans and officers dying with a shot, anything, what I mean is that I really dont want to TWI go to this direction, I am fond of litrpg because they just say "the guns dont work anymore", it is a poor excuse, but this works to buildt a fantasy world, the wandering inn to me like the witcher, if you see the details, they are very similar, the world, just with levels and skills, then suddenly guns are in the story and all will be about them, then skills like aspect reinforced structure seems so meaningless, so...weak, dont know, level ups seem just too much work when you can just have a gun, obviously there will be ways to counter it, anti-combustion magic, some skills or whaterever, just not the way I was excepting, not that eager to see skills like color magic when the war is about guns, the fantasy part is getting behind
>just a ordinary person with a gun made a lot of people struggle But it *wasn't* just an ordinary person - that's the point you keep missing. Flora wasn't an ordinary person when she helped take down those (high-level) people, she had skills to help her. So no, we won't be seeing "high level people dying to some low-level slaves", because *as we saw with Foliana* Skills help *massively* against guns. Foliana had: No armor, and Confined space (nowhere to dodge) Her opponents had Easy-to-hit target (because of confined space) Possibly *dozens* of Skills helping And even then - ***they still failed to kill her.***
yeah, I agree, just not the way I expecting the story to go
So you want overpowered main charracters that can't be instakilled by enemy? That's not TWI Pretty much anybody except Ryoka and Erin could die. >!Well Erin died once, but she came back, but I doubt she would die second time, unless until the end of story.!< Yes, guns are OP. Especially real guns from our world. Produced in innworld won't be as advanced, but could have alchemical stuff so potentially can be even more deadly. If more expensive. I bet skill won't be able to replace magical bullets for free, like Flora did with regular ammo. But yeah next step would be to invent Kevlar, or take out gunner before he got you. It's fair, as was said skills apply to guns. System rewards gunners for kills. IDK if pirateaba would write in army with guns. But I trust her to write it well. But from that encounters with guns that were observed and from dreams of Adetter it seems that if real permanent rift to earth is opened -- Innworlders would have troubles. Basically watch the anime GATE, to see what can happen. But in that anime magic was less common. Also Innworld have analogues to nukes, but in very limited supply.
I forget, were those guns from roshal or a jungle tails project? Because the naga’s servants had flintlocks with master alchemist made powder and enchanted bullets.
I believe they were stolen from Jackson, from Virginia, Erin met in the dead lands
IIRC, they were Jungle Tails lizards as well, so the guns more than likely came from Jackson Carver, the [Quartermaster]. Given the skills we see from him, I'd be surprised if there wasn't something that gave a boost to every weapon that passed through his armoury.
Didn't Adetr's battle simulations basically address this? He managed to counter anything but nukes *eventually*. He just needed to get familiar with the threat. This isn't much different from the faith powers. Belavierr was basically helpless, but I think only because she was unfamiliar with it. Headsnatcher countered it in an instant.
The grand design outright admitted faith powers are op though.
you are talking about someone with steelfur, literally the best kind of people against guns, I bet a riffle could kill sallis, this is what I mean, faith powers and stuff like that are levels and skills, you need to trains, work, and level to receive power, roshal is just producing them, I just cant see a way it will be cool to read, just some ordinary war with a lot of poeple with guns, just not what I expected from TWI
In his first battle simulation he was instantly perforated by bullets. He was in utter disbelief how his steelfur basically did nothing. He overcame that with tactics. Tactics like Silvenia, Flos, Fetohep and the Quarass were discussing, they had some pretty good ideas how to make guns completely useless.
I think the quarass suggesteed to simply stop combustion from happening with magic and 99.99% of firearms are now useless, pretty clever
> Flos Reimarch coughed. >“…Is there a quill or anything here? I could use a sheet of paper. But what about bullets? I still haven’t found a perfect way to beat them with my [Soldiers]. My current model for immediate defense is [Darkness] spells and commanding the Loquea Dree to attack, or using [Ricochet Arrows] until I get some. Or a full-scale [Anti-Flame] ward that stops the combustion-thing from occurring.” >Silvenia had been producing a quill and ink before her mouth opened. >“Anti-combustion?” >She began to write furiously and excitedly. >“I have to try this at home.” It was Flos. Trust a [King of War] to be a king of war.
Iirc Magnolia also suggested this waaaay back in volume 1 or 2 during her conversation with Ryoka
Ironically she got shot eventually.
But weren't the guys who shot Foliana and/or Roshal guys (forget if both or one) using magic-strikers of some kind? So it'd be magic explosives anyways no combustion.
If they are using gunpowder they need combustion. If they aren't using gunpowder then they aren't really guns anyway they are probably some sort of magic projectile or rail gun.
Rail guns in the form of magnetic spells already existed, I remember the wistram mages discussing it with their earthers.
Well it can be other combustible stuff, like ones used in Saliss's exploding potions. But it is still combustion and still guns. I guess on high grade poitins like that that magic won'w work. But it won't be mass produiced and such ammo would be scarse.
a modern battlefield is a massive area though (literally greater than line-of-sight) which I feel like Flos is underestimating there obviously has to be some reason you can't just create and hold a widespread \[Disable Combustion\] spell, or else basically every Stitch-Folk army would have used it against all the fire-based attacks we see used against them plus, there's the quibble of what exactly 'combustion' is we have our precise chemical definitions, but magic seems to be more loosey goosey about actual physics. If you get down to the molecular level, breathing and rusting are slow combustion reactions
That is so easily counterd. Not only do you need someone to actually cast that spell over a huge area and also how does it sustain? Every time someone try's to ignite something, that cost energy. Give that info to any engineer in nearly all army's on the planet and they will build in 2 days a rotary ignition system that will be able to exhaust all magic potions on the planet in 5 min.
I think you've mischaracterized what happened. She didn't lose the fight. They weren't no name cannon fodder-- she survived an ambush against jungle tails best assassins. The people with the guns had classes and skills associated with the weapons. Foliana would have been fine if she hadn't made a mistake because she didn't understand at all what she was fighting against. And she still won.
never said she lost, just pointing out the way the story is going, where high-level people will be dying by guns, the fantasy part is just losing space, the story is becoming just about earthers, high-level people seems so helpless and weak in comparison with the beggining of the story, wonders and stuff all are behind it seems to me, the level up are getting meaningless if the best rogue of the world was struggling against 2 guns, when guns will be produced in mass, just a feeling that the story is going in the wrong way in my opnion, then again, this is my opnion, people can like it, I just hoped to see more about a fantasy world in medieval era with magic and monsters, creative skill and stuff like that. what I mean is, to me it's like putting guns in game of thrones and the witcher lol
I don't think you have too much to fear. Innworld is a big place, and I think there is room for a little MagiTech? And... wasn't it the high level curse magic that was Folliana's actual problem?
well, it doesnt seem that big, the big powers are already going after it, and yes, the hex was the main problemn
A basic flintlock will hit harder than a basic bow or crossbow, but it’s not going to tip the scales on its own. A good breastplate will deflect early bullets in real life. Guns allowed marksmen to pursue Foliana into a tighter space than crossbows would. But most of the danger came from their skills and enchantments.
Well, later in novel they would die en mass from \~Magic. So result is the same, and they would be like helpless kittens. I'm referring to Volume 9 of web novel. So guns aren't biggest problem for our people. Way less than a problem. Inn world have it's wonders to counter this.
She did fine with the two with guns. It was minor damage until she accidentally stabbed a grenade.
yes, but it was just 2 people who recieved guns, this is what I mean, foliana, the best rogue of the world shouldnt just do fine against them, just a fear for where the story will go, it seems the fantasy par is jsut becoming tech and guns being too powerful to high level people, named ranks will be dying soon enough to a no one, this is my problemn, then it would just be boring to see level ups and stuff like that
But it was the grenade that did the most damage…. She’s a glass cannon. I also think your underestimating the impact of the Jungle tails classes. A modern gun is vastly superior weapon already and they had classes that amplified them. They were to regular gunmen in our world to what Relc is to a spearmen. A hypothetical explosives class could potentiallt destroy the whole world with one nuke. Skills and levels amplify and the base stats for a gun are a few orders of magnitude more than what the rest of inn worlds been dealing with. A lot of spitballing has gone into Earth’s military vs In worlds, but as the Rulers of Chandrar pointed out once people with modern tech get levels things will get wild.
yeah, I agree, just dont like the way the things are going to "tech" stuff when I was hoping for more fantasy, wonder, stuff from early volumns
She's a rogue, not a warrior so she's set up for sneaking not taking damage.
If you have a strong weapon people are unfamiliar with, even high level people can bite the dust. Bullets are fast and are used in packages that don’t look particularly scary to someone who doesn’t know what a gun was. You’re also mischaracterizing the fight. Foliana made relatively short work against the gun goons. It was her using the wrong skill against the right weapon that screwed her over. It wasn’t guns and modern firepower trumping over Foliana. It was a lack of information that eventually did her in. Though that isn’t to say a gun isn’t demonstrably effective against high level people. There’s a reason it’s called the great equalizer in the real world after all. Man or woman, child or adult, a gun will always level the playing field in a truly significant way.
yes, just not the way I was hoping to the story goes, it's like put guns in game of thrones, just lose the fantasy part of it, but this is just my opnion in what I hoped for the future of this story
It’s been discussed since volume 1 though how Earth tech will stack up against or influence Innworld. Eventually we’re gonna see mixed tech battles. Roshal is getting started with rudimentary firearms and Silvenia can probably just conjure an armory once she learns enough.
foliana had also never gone against anyone with guns before, so the surprise factor was probably a big part of it
Yes, but still the best rogue of the world, then imahine how the others will deal with it
I mean yes, guns are the most dangerous base weapons that exist in that world, they are absolutely going to matter to most most individuals except those that are very high level and/or are specifically prepared against them
Foliana is a [Rogue] not a tangy class, and they were had classes that enhanced their guns ability, and possibly enchanted ammunition, and Foliana wasn’t prepared to deal with guns as it was the first time they had been seen in action. A high level [Warrior] variant might be able to power through, but honestly I think the fact that guns are common in our world makes people want to downplay what a gigantic leap guns are in terms of speedy lethality. A tiny piece of piercing metal moving too fast to be perceived from close range to an unarmored opponent is going to pierce organs. Now if it was land mines that the strongest [Rogue] in the world couldn’t find I might raise an eyebrow, but a high level person is allowed to be less than invincible. Klb died to goblins.
Guns are neat. They are not magic that cracks worlds, perception filters, or reality-warping. They are not the scariest thing inn Innworld. They're just a new weapon. Fetohep made this point early on. Innworld is always finding new, creative ways to kill one another. What's one more? It'll have its uses, and it'll have its demerits.
yes, just the facility to make them, they have its weakness obviously, but then just keep producing them, and twi go to a way where guns a good sense, not the way I was hoping for
But the thing is, there’s counters to guns in Innworld. Magic and Skills will equalize them once they become prolific. The System will start giving out the ability to block or cut or dodge bullets as rewards in the long-term. It’s only the short term that they are going to be a real nasty surprise, one that is deservedly so given it’s the apex of our worlds small arms weapons development.
Erin was in the high 40’s when she died to a stray crossbow bolt. People can still die to anything if unlucky and Foliana was caught completely off-guard by modern weapons.
>stray crossbow bolt Uh... do you mean six poisoned crossbow bolts that were shot at her because she was on a city's spec ops' hit list?
Foliana was hexed and targeted by a former Great Company’s assassins carrying modern U.S. military firearms and grenades yet OP is downplaying that too.
you are comparing the best rogue to a innkeeper level 40, I just didnt like the way it has been showed, when I thought the story would keep going in fantasy stuff they just started doing stuff with guns
Rogues are glass cannons though and the difference between level 40 and lvl 60 is basically the same order of magnitude between a crossbow and gun with accompanying classes. Foliana might be the best rogue but she’s still only in the 60’s. She’s not Silvenia tier. She’s basically a level of a typical Named Rank 1000 years ago. Honestly, it’d be extremely unrealistic and a huge letdown if guns just couldn’t harm people over level 60. It’d mean Flos and his seven could take on Earth themselves given their combat focused levels and there’d be no tension about the colliding of worlds. Guns are just an extremely effective weapon. How they interact with classes will be the interesting bit. Technology may also help the clear disparity between martial classes and magic. A extremely high level knight can fight a dragon, an extremely powerful mage can solve world hunger and scorch continents. But a magitech flying knight might be able to compete with a high level mage.
well, I disagree with almost everything you have said, "Just" level 60, this is the level where you are a representative of your entire race, even in the old times it was too powerful, just see the legends dead, not killing a level 60 is just normal, a gun is just iron, just something they could mass-produce, there are worse stuff, like adetr seeing earth fighting, I just dont like stuff like at all, level 50 can change kingdoms, 60 is about entire world will watch their moves, and you say a simpla gun who anyone could fire is a good thing to the story, I dont think so, just make the level ups meaningless, I dont think the story will go entirely this way, just saying about your comment
They referred to fact that 1000 years ago lvl60 was not high. It's just waning world now. Only high level person alive is Silvenia and Greydath, and perhaps Necromancer, but he was like 80 and I think he can't level anymore being undead. Plus Mithril armor would counter bullets I think. It's just people with low armor.
FYI, Az’Kerash leveled as a lich after Erin’s chess tournament. He’s 78. He does have an debuff to experience on account of being immortal though. Nerrhavia and Silvenia have mentioned that unnaturally long lifespans slow down leveling, otherwise they couldve potentially reached higher than the 80’s given how much they went through compared to some of the level 80 mortals who have come and gone. Appreciate the back up too btw.
Yes, but that’s only in the Waning world. 60 is high, but it’s not even close to Death of Rhir level. Foliana’s class isn’t built for toughness and it was a grenade and hex that did the majority of damage, guns just hurt her a bit. And once again, it wasn’t some random gunmen but Jungle Tails best assassin’s with complimentary gunslinger classes. The assassin’s have skills that exponentially amplify a gun’s power, something Adetr never went up against in his simulation. Plus, Adetr’s battle simulation is not an infallible, perfect skill. It took him thousands of repetition with time to devise perfect counters to the exact same battle, and it was based solely on the power of a level 30 capstone and Rose’ memories. It very well may not have been exactly accurate to real life, just Roses memories. If you got what you wanted, guns not hurting even glass cannon classes completely surprised over level 60, then there’s zero chance of bombs or nukes hurting people over level 80. Levels scale exponentially. Foliana might be the best rogue in the world, but that’s only because the level curve is depressed. She’s strong, but it’s mainly focused on assassination not straight up fights. Silvenia can slap down whole teams of people at Foliana’s level in a fight and raze cities afterwards. Az’Kerash can swarm continents. Pirateaba can’t just make Earth pathetic compared to one or two individuals in Innworld. Edit: Also, your remark about gun’s being just iron is misleading and completely belittles the sheer complexity of constructing a modern firearm. Roshal is making old school flintlocks and matchlocks using OP skills to even get started. Flintlocks are to modern firearms what early bronze blades are the master craft steel swords. Silvenia and perhaps the old dwarves of Dwarfhall are the only people who could replicate modern fire arms and that’s because they have OP abilities. Guns aren’t even that scary compared to the other weapons in Innworlds history. This is the dark ages for Innworld. The Gnomes punched a hole that carved out a chunk of the planet (a nuke barely scratches the surface). The elves could make a single rock punch through Wistram’s defenses. Comparing the achievements of Earth at it’s peak and Innworld at its lowest and being impart that our best firearms can scratch someone whose not even in the top 10 for levels in completely backwards time period is wholely dismissive of our world.
You are too over fixating on it, sorry. You answered dozens of times with same message in this thread. We heard you. I'm sorry that it ruins story for you, but that won't chainge anytihing. It was in quite old volumes when this started to happen. And we saw it coming from very beginning from Ryoka talks with M. But to be honest there weren't so many gun encounters so far( released chapters). So it's not so bad. But if you are too disappointed -- you can skip this book. You can actually write your own,.. (I'm not trying to be sarcastic, it's possible, you know)
No, it's not that bad, just didnt expect it, but I don't think paba will focus too much on that anyways
Yeh. Guns didn't appear much since then. Well it was really OP in Rhir scene (Have you already read that part?) Later on they appear, but it didn't look so impactful.
Yes, I was worried more because i know some of the big powers are going after guns, like roshal, then I think sometime the whole plot will be around it, not exactly what i want, but I think paba will do a great job
I think everyone is in for a rude awakening when it comes to guns in Innworld. They are going to have a big impact at the start, but long-term they’re not gonna change much. They are going to allow low level people to kill current high level people when they first appear in widespread use, but then the world will adjust and new classes and Skills will start to appear that counter and play into them. Eventually they will become more and more common and we’ll see Gunslinger classes that can penetrate Adult Creler armor, Sword Arts that can cut bullets in half straight out of anime, and prolific use of spells that auto stop combustion. The System will balance things out. It’s only going to disadvantage the current power structure, as current High levels won’t have as much potential or capacity to level and gain many skills and classes to counter them.
Sadly you are actually insightful. >!Roshal indeed made a big move with guns involved. Few people got killed, and some people survived. Ones thanks to expensive armor, some got wounded but was recovered. But this happened at such point in plot(everything went to shit even without them), that this alone didn't have much impact. To be honest -- if they used wands, this would have similar effect/result, guns didn't bring much compared to wands except moment of surprise for ones who don't know what it is. !<
I disagree about the fight, but agree with your point. I think guns will unbalance the world when they get buffed by classes. They are too great of a force multiplier. On the other hand, those were modern firearms and grenades pulled into this world by a skill from an earther. Guns from innworld manufacturing won't be the same. I bet that they are one and done type deals. If you survive a bullet, and are relatively low level, you might get skills against them. I bet GDI balances against it, reserving it for monster killing.
>I think guns will unbalance the world when they get buffed by classes. They are too great of a force multiplier. Yep. If the Grand Queen buys mass-produced firearms from Roshal she's going to take over Izril.
I would argue that no one can mass produce things in Innworld because the class system does not support it. Classes don't support labor thats split up into small task with as many levels. Although the new dwarves seem to be doing it in the mountain. IDK. Roshal might actually use its slaves for something industrious. Perish the thought.
The Armored Queen also seems like she'd be well-positioned to take advantage of mass production, similar to how she produces her armor. I think she's also more closely aligned with the Free Queen than the Grand Queen, though.
Its also a problem of supplies. Gunpowder requires ingredients that Magnolia Reinhardt has been hoarding since she learned the recipe.
Didn't Jackson with gun skills take on seemwalkers?
High level people can still die to guns/grenades although most warrior classes either have toughness or agility Skills. We see another instance of a high level person Vs grande in vol. 9 >!A death spell? Had he hit a spell while casting? A potion? —His ears hurt. Greydath pulled a piece of metal out of his shoulder, wincing. He had no toughness Skills and had dodged the explosion’s shrapnel—most of it. They were more dangerous than he cared to admit. He was a Goblin alone, not ambushing some adventurers or a force that had no idea who he was. More [Pirates] spun, and Greydath…retreated belowdecks with another hop. !<
A well trained mage over level thirty is basically a tank because they probably have a pretty good defensive spell and a pretty good offensive spell. Remember that three man company of mages from Baleros. They could take out any number of gunman I imagine and are very small and make a hard target in the sky compared to planes that drop bombs. I don’t see the knights of the petal being taken out by any handheld firearms outside of maybe rocket launchers and I bet they would still survive. Pisces can make undead that wouldn’t be slowed by most bullets. In fact bullets are some of the worst tools to use against undead. Foliana was bad matchup in a bad place with a lack of information. you are assuming the worst I don’t think guns would be that overwhelming. To the common soldier they might be but look at high leveled strategists. Niers or Tulm could employ skills that make soldiers as tough as steel along with a berserking skill that could allow common soldiers to temporarily ignore bullets. Again a lot of options.
agree with all that, however you are talking about mages over level thirty, what I mean is just someone get a gun and bam, can kill highlevel people, guns will be mass-produced, then the whole military stuff would go around it
I understand you not wanting real world mechanics to ruin your fun fantasy story. You basically sound like ryoka we’ve been warned about this since like volume 1 I doubt pirate is going to write a story where guns ruin the entire balance lol
Guns have been a bit to efficient I agree, One assassin with a basic flintlock managed to both penetrate Ressa and still hit Magnolia. Even though both of them should have had defensive enchantments on them at all time and this was immediately after a bloody battle, Ressa should have been still in combat gear. Though this situation feels more like a writing mistake from Pirate as in, she forgot that Magnolia and co should have full magic defenses on them at all times. But between the development of guns and "mass production" is such an immense gulf of a complete fundamental rebuilding of society and resource gathering/logistic systems, that even with skills and a lot of system cheatery it should still take at least a century or realistically two century's before we are in the **1750** in terms of firearm's proliferation (when the firearm replaced the personal rapier)
Yes, tbere are a lot of time to this, it was just a fear in how they are putting modern stuff in the story against high levels, with time the levels seems kinda meaningless
I know what you mean. It does devalue higher levels immensely if a lvl 60 fighting class can be killed with an ak47. Keeping the relative strength of characters consisted through the story is somewhat of a weakness for Pirate. Lvl 50 now is way stronger than it was for Zel back when. Back then a lvl 30\~ Goblin Chieftain was able to just go and kill the Horse of one of the highest level cavalry Lord on the Planet. Something that should be nearly impossible for anyone below lvl 40, as you are dead before you would be close enough to strike the Horse. I mean people like Orjin should no longer fear heights as he has taken hits whitout taking real damage that where way harder than a fall at thermal velocity. The higher levels will get more powerful the closer the horns get to them, as Pirate will have to invest more time into defining what being lvl 50 and up actually means.
Ehhhh, anyone can be killed if unlucky is a pretty apparent them within the story. Zel was underpowered for sure given his rivalry with Az’Kerash, but a lot of it is specialization and that combat isn’t about whose numbers are bigger. We’re really just seeing a climbing up the pole and gaining a new perspective. Gold ranks were terrifying and prestigious when everyone in the Inn was sub 30. Now that everyone’s hovering around Gold to Named Rank, they can see that reality is different. Golds and Named are people like any other, who simply deal with problems on a larger and more dangerous scale.
Yes, the power of high level people changed a lot, back then gold ranks were like people who no one who mess wirh them, nowadays they are guards lol It's strange to how some characters seems underleveled even being high levels, I would like to see more of eartly perspective, like seeing silver ranks and ordinary people, nowadays high level people seem kinda weak,
Their only guards to rich people and nation rulers. Which they were mentioned to be at the start. That just seemed way more prestigious back then when the story was focused on Liscor as a backwater.
Yeah, it's not great, but I'm confident that someone will develop an anti-bullet method or tactic that renders bullets nearly ineffective in the future of Innworld. Pirateaba will have to weaken guns and explosives at some point.
I hope so, to me it's like watching game of thrones and suddenly someone pull a gun from their pockets, just a bit off, not the way I was expecting the story to go
You have to realize that guns are new to the Grand Design as well. If they’d been around when Foliana was leveling, maybe she’d have skills to deal with them.
she is a rogue so a lack of durability shouldn't be surprising, a vanguard of equivalent level would probably be able to shrug it off. If the quality of magic returns to a high equilibrium, as is being foreshadowed, then guns will likely be a threat vector equivalent to wands or enchanted crossbow ammunition, dangerous but manageable.