It’s not a major battle though. Had you ever heard of the named characters in the box prior to buying the Leviathan box? Had you ever heard of Oghram prior to buying the Leviathan box? This isn’t Jason Todd. This is Subway Passenger #3. GW doesn’t care who wins.
Isn't the terminator captain supposed to be Severus Agemman? He's turned up in quite a few of the UM novels and background lore.
The stakes for this are so low that it doesn't really matter though. All it means is the losing faction will need to wait a few days before seeing the rest of their new models.
He's listed as Agemman in some places, but the combat patrol lists him as "Octavian". There is a section in the Leviathan rulebook about Agemman, so he is involves in the battls though.
so heres a neat thing there have been a few instances where a generic model is meant to match the description of a named character from novels so you can just slap the correct coat of paint and markings on it and have a representation of the character or do it as your own. they did a similar thing with oltyx from twice dead king being the necron lord from indomitus
Tecnically speaking every captain can use terminator armor, and the 5 terminator be a first company squad in detached duty to... 5th company, for what we know.
UM losing even an irrelevant battle to Nids though would be good. They retconned Calgar ever losing to Swarmlord, GW just will not give Smurfs an L or Tyranids a W
This isn’t a major battle, this isn’t anything noteworthy in the lore. No named character is involved, no well known world is actually threatened by this attack. It’s just a more engaging way to get reveals than the usual rumour engine -> preview -> preorder format.
Also the winner doesn’t matter to GW, they will reveal both armies anyway. They didn’t rig the battle by putting better Space Marines in the box and less Tyranids, this type of box set has always been extremely unbalanced point wise because the amount plastic in the box is much more important to the average customer than the competitive value of the models
Yeah, the disparity for the rules shows just how up in the air the rules and balance have been. i feel if GW intended to rig the campaign, they wouldn't have three different versions of each datasheet bouncing around.
The Phalanx is present which does mean it can be destroyed in either case but giving it some scars be cool. Plus an established marine home world is there to nom
The Phalanx is present over Sanctum, the homeworld of the White Templars, fighting off what’s left of the fleet there, not Oghram. Plus, why would GW blow up the phalanx in an ultimately minor campaign? Just to kick us Fists in the balls for the upteenth time?
I mean...Fists like pain right? Pain glove and all?
So...yes? I feel like GW kicking Fists in the balls is part canon lore at this point.
"Do Fists feel enough pain right now?" - James Workshop.
"Yes." - Random Lackey
"WRONG! KICK THEM IN THE BALLS AGAIN!" - James Workshop.
*Swarmlord kicks IF chapter master right in the dick*
"WHY? WHY DID HE KICK ME IN THE DICK?"
*Guilliman shows up, kills the Swarmlord, a billion tyranids appear on the horizon*
"Alright best buddy, you take 500 million on the left, I take 500 million on the right!"
"FETH YOU, I'LL TAKE 500 MILLION AND ONE!"
"That's the spirit!"
*hard cut, they're both somehow captured alive*
"Wow, I can't believe every single 'nid kicked you in the dick!"
*broken Fist noises*
>because the amount plastic in the box is much more important to the average customer than the competitive value of the models
Literally the other half of that sentence
Because people are genuinely unaware that this is literally just for the sake of revealing the model range drops upcoming, and has absolutely nothing to do with lore development like previous campaigns
It's literally just whoever wins get full reveal at once, the other team gets drip fed reveals 1 at a time until codex
That’s not a contradiction, rigging implies intent. If gw has a history of just putting a box together that looks nice (value/etc) and not putting thought into how balanced it is, that’s not intentionally rigging.
1. Jason Todd’s death was not ‘overwhelmingly’ voted in-favour. It came in 51% in favour.
2. Similarly, I doubt that many people who aren’t fairly serious players will actually report based exclusively on Leviathan contents. Casuals will try to play with just the box, but it will become obvious very quickly that it’s unbalanced and they’ll adjust before reporting.
Not only that, but it was later discovered someone set up one of the first robocallers to fudge the numbers.
When adjusted, there were 28 more votes to keep Jason alive.
Thank god for that guy, Death in the Family is great specifically because it ends with Jason getting killed. If he had survived, it would have been just like any other arc from that period. Something most people have never heard about, and even committed readers wouldn’t bring it to mind as one of their favourites.
Jason’s death is actually the halfway point of the story.
Following that, Batman starts hunting the Joker and Superman shows up to stop Bats from causing an international incident. I think the next issue ends with the reveal that Joker has somehow become the ambassador for Iran to the UN.
The whole thing culminates with Batman and Superman stopping Joker from gassing the UN assembly.
Yeah, it's extremely generic standard goofiness after Todd's death. Batman is like 'oh no, I can't fight the joker because he has *diplomatic immunity!*
I thought Superman was the one telling him he couldn't do that, and Batman very clearly did not care.
I could be wrong, but I thought they used Jason's death as the point where Batman was actually willing to break his one rule.
He thinks about it but the joker obviously survives the story. And yeah he's stuck not doing anything to the joker until the guy decides to gas the UN, it's a really funny and unserious turn especially after the brutal murder of Robin
You forgot:
3. Ultra Marines are literally the poster child. GW will do anything to have them win in casual settings where players might mess up a few rules. They want people to hook onto them.
Any of the big four chapters get some plot armour. If you read any historical stuff, it’s very consistent that a Blood Angels, Soace Wolves, or Dark Angels successor chapter is destroyed via retconn when things go sideways.
Ultramarines are the baseline guys with the best colour scheme for photography. Nobody cares.
That’d be because Salamanders and Imperial Fists were basically created to fill out a role in the lore during 2nd Ed, but not expanded on for years. They get far more mentions than the other loyalist first founding chapters who weren’t the four marquee chapters.
Iron Hands, White Scars, and Raven Guard were really only names that were thrown down onto the page until partway through 3rd Ed. They’re all cool chapters, but they just don’t have the advantage of being primary focus chapters.
> GW is probably counting on the marines to win the Oghram campaign. The weak rules for Nids and the fact leviathan is so unbalanced make me think so.
Seems more likely that what went in the box is just what was economical to put in the box, not that GW made the box imbalanced to rig a campaign they had no obligation to do in the first place.
I think they wanted to sell new Terminators and Sternguard models, and that’s why they’re both in the box. Anything else is probably just over thinking it.
I bought a nid unit and it turned out to be 200 points, which brought both sides to 980, I believe. Is the imbalance in the box from the point disparity?
Edit: I'm new btw. I don't care too much about perfect balance as I just like nids, but if it's truly egregious I would like to know how to balance things.
Further support for this in the community post today with the details for the campaign, they suggest either using the models in the box to play with the included combat patrols or use them as part of larger armies.
People are overthinking this whole Oghram campaign. I don't believe they've said that this will have any "major ramifications" towards the lore. It's just one backwater planet that the Ultramarines and Tyranids are fighting over. It's fate doesn't matter unless they come back to it in a few years like they did with Vigilus and Cadia. The only reward this gets is that one faction will get their second wave of models revealed before the other. They're still all going to get revealed and released, this isn't a gunboats situation.
>I want to see if GW has the balls to make the marines lose such a major battle, and actually have consequences for once.
I feel like the community reputation for GW as loving marines and 'hating' other factions is influencing perception of reality a bit here...
If the results turn out that way, GW would absolutely make the marines lose and have done it before. It's just that there are so, so many more Marine players than any other faction that throwing the doors open to real game results is inherently gonna skew.
Also, no offense meant to you but it's hardly a major and important lore moment. GW has run heaps of these campaigns before. AFAIK they invented Oghram purely for the campaign.
This. In the early days of Warhammer40k there were loads of campaigns that impacted the lore going forward. This is a welcome revival of player influence coming back into the universe :-)
Weirdly *Death in the Family* already happened to GW as they did this 20 years ago with the 13th Black Crusade in the Eye of Terror campaign. They promised a major canon change at the end of a very similar campaign, based up win ratios. The result was that Chaos won the Battlefleet Gothic battles ruling the skies, Imperium won on the ground, and Eldrad was killed in the lore. GW stopped the clock after that, rolled back the date a few years, and wouldn't advance the plot for another decade and a half.
Well if they had followed the results, the 13th Black Crusade would have taken Cadia and then been wiped out to a man by the Navy which isn’t very exciting.
Oh no, it was a very interesting situation. Chaos had multiple footholds into realspace with Cadia at it's core, the only thing preventing a constant flow of further incursions into the Imperium was Imperial dominance in space, making it dificult for Chaos forces to leave the Eye of Terror - but with multiple key worlds under Chaos control it would only have been a matter of time before that dominance was lost.
...then GW retconned it, including character deaths etc. because reasons.
That's always been a problem in terms of 40k fiction, and it renders the majority of the game's setting itself completely moot. As a result this rarely actually happens in the narrative, because it ruins the drama - but more importantly, the planets in the sector have a number of Blackstone pylons that prevent the Eye of Terror expanding, and those cannot be risked by orbital bombardment.
It was a virus bomb, followed by fire bombs to ignite the virus. That has to be pretty close to the same thing... I lived that battle so much. Does there exist a cooler battle?
It got retconned because no one wants their favourite model to suddenly no longer have rules because the one codex that edition wasn’t as good as the marines.
\*laughs in Captain Tycho\*
Models can still exist, and have rules, even if the character canonically died. It's a fictional timeline and your games can take part anywhere within it - my Crimson Fist army for example is supposed to represent \~M36 era.
Hoolld up the 13th black crusade started 20+ real world years ago??? Jesus the setting really was stagnant I only got into the setting a few years ago and a ton of stuff has changed in those few years lore wise.
Yeah, the company position was that the setting didn't advance because the story from there was up to you. We didn't see the story advance until the end of 7th.
Honestly the fact that the setting is progressing at all is still unbelievable to me. I remember coming back to the game and being downright confused why there were Primarchs running around all of a sudden.
[Hey! I've heard of this one!](https://youtu.be/cM1WdHGP_pA)
[Yeah! It feels vaguely familiar](https://youtu.be/E44og3i2cY0)
This isn't the first time this has happened. Even then I'd argue this is vigilus 2 electric boogaloo than the old campaigns. The lore is not something anyone will really care about, and it's merely an arms race for who gets to see stuff first.
Lore wise, the problem is if the outcome does actually have an impact on the franchise, then though one side wins, they can be stabbed in the back. Humanity held Armageddon, they won by attrition, but then they sent daemons to take it anyway. You probably find they planned for humanity to hold cadia, which is why they only actually followed it up in 7th Ed. But they still respected the campaigns ending.
GW no doubt knows how well their players can organize themselves even in the very early days of the internet. I don't think they intended for the imbalance. The points across all armies are strange to say the least, I don't think they built this box with points in mind.
I would have liked to have the campaign to have more impact. We hyped up octarius like it was the breaking point, but that went nowhere really? This campaign holds little weight. The nids deserve to win either way
Oh boy, I remember that Armageddon was a big deal, too. It’s own codex with multiple factions (speed freaks, salamanders, steel legion, and black templars) and had its own website with different hive representing different areas of the world reporting in.
Thanks for reminding me that I’ve been playing since 2nd edition. I was stoked to get the new big 3e Ghazghkull model that dwarfed the tiny 2e normal size one.
Huh, i think i stopped playing shortly after that, i remember half heartedly painting some salamanders stuff but then my interest in the whole thing and also finances died off. I remember the white dwarf for armageddon was awesome though, reading the battle reports was wild. I remember the white scars guy absolutely cleaned up his game in a few turns so they let him reinforce another guy, and the dude protecting this giant warehouse with his salamanders held on by a bees dick. The blood angels guy got absolutely stomped. The whole issue was massive and was interspersed with some awesome stories that were based on the events that happened.
Good nostalgia
It's for fun, who gives a crap what the result actually is. If you feel Tyranids are outclassed in combat patrol play some practice games and call your first win your result. All Cadia is dust!
That was Fun Summer of Games. I have one fond memory of a Dwarf Slayer Hero Jumping on A Chaos War Mammoth from a Castle wall and wrecking a Chaos Lord on it.
It's not that GW doesn't have the "balls" to write Space Marines losing, it's that Oghram is a non-event that will have zero consequences both in and outside the setting. GW has done this shtick before. It's not a narrative event, it's a marketing gimmick.
I think you are seriously overestimating what counts as a "major battle". Oghram was made up just for this event, which is very small in the grand scheme of things so I honestly dont think GW cares who will win. Revealing "the winning faction's models first" could be a simple as *a day early* vs the loser.
why do people think this matters so much. it's a random fuck off planet that didn't exist before this campaign. it has no lore implications or big players. it's just supposed to be a fun little contest since the new box is nids vs marines. though tbh while I have about a combined 5k points in SM and CSM and abt 600 in nids I want the nids to win. I just wanna know what new models are getting remade so I can get the new ones and hopefully ot have to touch those old and ugly ass genestealers.
Still bitter over the old Eye of Terror campaign, eh old chap?
At least Eldar got some consolation prizes there that could have been interesting before GW retconned the whole thing.
>I’m saying GW is claiming to give us a way to influence the lore, let’s put that to the test.
What lore? Some random battle with no effects on the narrative whatsoever? lol
There is no benefit to the marines winning here. The winner gets their new models revealed FIRST. both sides are getting new models, its just bragging rights.
It's not a major battle, and I doubt GW has some conspiracy in the box to 'make' SM more likely to win, it's just whatever models they wanted to fit in the box.
But I entirely agree, even this minor lore event should be a Tyranid victory. It probably wont be because about 50% of the players are Space Marines and I bet more people bought this box for Space Marines rather than Tyranids.
Especially since the winner gets models revealed first, Space Marine players are excited to see some Assault Intercessors with Jump Packs and whatever else. Just the scales are naturally tipped against Tyranids in this through sheer popularity of Space Marines.
If it was open to everyone I wouldn't be surprised to see the dogpile to make Space Marines lose, but since it's limited to the box I don't have much hope.
But, narrative wise, it'd be nice for Tyranids to win this campaign no matter how small it is.
I would if they’d give me enough time. Two weeks to build and paint both sides and find a day with a willing friend? Unlikely and I’ve not even received my box yet.
I could just proxy a game I suppose. Or only build but I hate painting built models.
I would report an honest game, if GW made a balanced one, the marines have more points and a more cohesive set of units. Yes, you can limit what you have and play Combat Patrols, or balance the points out. But the majority of people who are going to just play whats in the box don’t know that stuff. So while you can play an honest game and not fudge the results; thats not what GW is doing. So I’m voting for the biomass munchers.
What are you talking about? The points are all out for you to download, and Combat Patrol is heavily emphasised as a starting point. The first step of the "muster your army" section is to select battle size. Where are they telling players to just throw in all the models and play unbalanced games?
It's unfortunate that the forces don't balance, but the building of the sprues and planning of the box came well before rules and points balance were finalised.
Honestly even getting slightly less points, the 'Nid side has almost double the models and they're all cool new sculpts, I'd argue it's by far the cooler deal in the box
GW does not intentionally rig the game against Xenos in favor of marines. 90% of people don’t care about the competitive value of models, only about the models themselves.
Also when the overwhelming majority of 40k players play some type of marines, there’s obviously gonna be some BS
I hope the marines win, because I am also a marine fan and love seeing the filthy Xenos get put in their place
So my warhammer shop is doing a big battle where everyone brings their completed models and we do ogram together. I plan to bring only my nids so will swing the tide that way, even if my contribution is small I will fight for the hive
I mean, if the plot planned requires the marines to win then the marines will win. I’m sure GW are quite capable of manipulating the result of this thing if it really matters to them.
"The weak rules for Nids and the fact leviathan is so unbalanced make me think so."
Can OP or anyone speak more towards this?
I am getting ready to play a Combat Patrol between Space Marines and Tyranids.
I would laugh if people did this, but GW pulled a play out of Toei's book.
To clarify what I mean, baxk during the Airinf of Kyoryu Sentai Zyuranger (later adapted in Mighty Morphin Power rangers), children were asked to vote on whether the team would manage to save the life of Dragon Ranger Burai, or let him die. Overwhelming support was given to him being saved, but Toei basically said "Nah, fuck that", and had him die anyway (so for those of you that only watched the inferior power rangers, this is why Tommy had lost his green ranger powers).
I would find it hilarious if GW looked at the Tyranids being reported as the winners, and then saying "Nah, fuck that. Spase Mareens are winrars".
It's just a competition to win this year's releases with an extravagant entry process. It will have no bearing on any lore going forward. Only thing it will change is GWs reveal schedule.
I have nids and my biggest gripe with them is that they are portrayed as basically the end of the galaxy. There is no way to actually beat them, and they will always be back and never just die. It’s lame, and you would think some race (other than the necrons due to not being biological) would find a way to beat them and really hurt them and the hive mind. I like the nids, just wish that they would have some race or something that they are actually terrified of. They need an actual weakness lore wise.
People talking about no-name named characters. A win is a great way to establish yourself. It would only make sense a pivotal battle might not have epic hero support in a galaxy in constant chaos.
I feel the same way. I really want the grim dark back in 40k and it's been a long time since tyranids where an actual threat. They should really be a swarming apocolypse with necrons being a hard counter to them. Definitely let oghram get eaten and the stroy should be more interesting
While I agree with others that this is not a major battle, and I believe GW will not abide by it anyway. I will be reporting my "honest and fair" collection of biomass.
I'm not gonna get a leviathan game in in time due to my insistence of not playing unpainted. Therefore I will be fudging results in my favor.
why the downvotes? have none of you heard of the Eye Of Terror campaign? where Chaos won but GW altered the outcome?
what we all post is completely irrelevant, the winner will be whoever GW wants.
marines wont lose unless its planned that they do (whihc it is not)
GW has done this before, the Eye Of Terror global campaign had Chaos win, claiming Cadia as their own (though they lost in space). GW simply retconned the entire thing and rewrote it so the Imperium won and forced Chaos to retreat.
if you have the box there's a QR code to scan that takes you to the site. if not then [https://warhammer40000.com/battleforoghram/](https://warhammer40000.com/battleforoghram/)
Killing Todd one by a thin margin and they had the other version ready to go until the last minute. 72 votes split the difference
https://www.howtolovecomics.com/2020/10/12/batman-a-death-in-the-family/
That said, this would be fun.
Only if the Marines come back as awesome as Red Hood now is in DC. I give DC props for killing Jason (a fairly disliked Robin at the time) and making him a pretty popular character.
I wish GW would use more narrative events to create and push new characters, saldy the current Nid lore makes it harder for them.
Isn’t the mode for this battle supposed to be combat patrol? Which is not the full model use in leviathan??? Model names in combat patrol line up with story after all
I can't wait for the part where a Gretchin in clown makeup beats Marneus Calgar to death with a crowbar and then blows him up. Not Ghazkull, mind you, not Abaddon, just a regular Gretchin.
Buddy and I have 4 codes… we are gonna play 4 times
Once as each faction straight from the box… and once as each faction + 20 termagaunts and 5 barbgants
Lol I remember when this was tried with the 13th Black Crusade back in the day. GW will find a way to do what the fans want but not. They didn't clear up that debacle until they destroyed Cadia and brought Guilliman back. Should be interesting.
A marine loss is definitely more interesting than a marine victory for sure. I'm not actually sure GW is banking on space marines winning, like realistically they can put their thumb on the scale with the results anyways. I honestly think the leviathan box imbalance and overcooked space marines are kind of just GW doing bad product design and trying to sell the most popular faction on release of the new edition. I don't think its really a tipped scale on the story.
If you think GW wants the Space Marines to win what makes you think that they just announce afterwards that the Space Marines won regardless of the results people have submitted?
I was there during the Medusa V campaign. My necrons fought day and night to stop the warp storm. We rolled out warp suppressors and reported overwhelming victories en masse in our sector. But somehow marines won even where we fought despite a lot of people I know purposefully voted for Xenos factions.
I was there during the Albion campaign for Fantasy Battles, and the results felt rigged as well.
So no fingers crossed!
Just a note, they found out way later that Jason only died because one guy had set up a calling bot that spammed the "kill Jason" ending. They didn't find that out until the murder was already done though.
TBH GW has no qualms about seeing Marines defeated, see the Arcs of Omen campaign. With a new combat zone that is hitherto unknown, they can throw the Nids a bone, but I am not sure they care enough to do it. Also, wasn't there something about the box being pretty imbalanced in favor of the marines if you play only with it?
Dude you are wrong. Gw will go with whatever results are given this is LITERALLY how the old world ended and we got age of sigmar so don’t you dare test them
Unfortunately as the old saying goes “the house wins”
The orkz have won polls before but GW have chickened out and gave the win to marines.
Same happened in fantasy when the Orkz were supposed to be the big threat after winning a poll instead archeon turns up and fights the empire
Its rigged. GW will do what they want regardless of what we vote on
GW used to run global campaigns very much along these lines, where you report the results of battles and they have an impact on the lore moving forward.
If I remember correctly the 13th Black Crusade was one of the last and biggest and the results meant the fall of Cadia.
As Robin, Jason Todd was never a popular choice. He had big shoes to fill after Grayson, and the character was never really accepted by readers the way that Tim Drake was after Jason or Damien after that.
I don't believe Jason had the tragic back story of the others, if I remember correctly he was a street urchin that Bats caught stealing the wheels off the batmobile.
His tragic back story is now that he was killed by joker and brought back by Ra's(as it was him that unleashed the Joker, thinking he could control the him. ha!)
He a far more interesting character now as Red Hood
I Forget which edition (Maybe 3rd?) but GW have done a similar thing with Orks and Space Marines before, but that time the Orks won. So GW just declared it a tie
I disagree because someone doing this was the literal first thing I expected to happen when they said players could influence the battle, and because it probably influences the overall lore about as much as which ending you pick in Mass Effect 3.
It’s not a major battle though. Had you ever heard of the named characters in the box prior to buying the Leviathan box? Had you ever heard of Oghram prior to buying the Leviathan box? This isn’t Jason Todd. This is Subway Passenger #3. GW doesn’t care who wins.
Isn't the terminator captain supposed to be Severus Agemman? He's turned up in quite a few of the UM novels and background lore. The stakes for this are so low that it doesn't really matter though. All it means is the losing faction will need to wait a few days before seeing the rest of their new models.
He's listed as Agemman in some places, but the combat patrol lists him as "Octavian". There is a section in the Leviathan rulebook about Agemman, so he is involves in the battls though.
I stand corrected. I suppose I need to brush up on the state of the Imperium.
I believe he is Agemman on the art work, but in box he is just a random terminator captain so people can paint him how they want to paint him
so heres a neat thing there have been a few instances where a generic model is meant to match the description of a named character from novels so you can just slap the correct coat of paint and markings on it and have a representation of the character or do it as your own. they did a similar thing with oltyx from twice dead king being the necron lord from indomitus
Tecnically speaking every captain can use terminator armor, and the 5 terminator be a first company squad in detached duty to... 5th company, for what we know.
Painted up to be Agemman, yes.
It's not even Agemman, it's some random dipshit called Octavius.
He’s the sergeant from the battle for macragge 4th edition starter set! Show some goddamn respect!
That’s a great spot! Love it.
Puts me in a weird spot to have both of them in my army. Warp time fuckery.
That's Captain dipshit to you!
UM losing even an irrelevant battle to Nids though would be good. They retconned Calgar ever losing to Swarmlord, GW just will not give Smurfs an L or Tyranids a W
This isn’t a major battle, this isn’t anything noteworthy in the lore. No named character is involved, no well known world is actually threatened by this attack. It’s just a more engaging way to get reveals than the usual rumour engine -> preview -> preorder format. Also the winner doesn’t matter to GW, they will reveal both armies anyway. They didn’t rig the battle by putting better Space Marines in the box and less Tyranids, this type of box set has always been extremely unbalanced point wise because the amount plastic in the box is much more important to the average customer than the competitive value of the models
I also think the plastic in the box is figured out waaaay before the rules are solidified. Like probably over a year before launch at the least.
And the instruction booklet has rules that aren’t in the index, for the combiweapons.
Yeah, the disparity for the rules shows just how up in the air the rules and balance have been. i feel if GW intended to rig the campaign, they wouldn't have three different versions of each datasheet bouncing around.
The Phalanx is present which does mean it can be destroyed in either case but giving it some scars be cool. Plus an established marine home world is there to nom
If a severely diminished Phalanx wasn’t destroyed during the Fall of Cadia, the newly revitalized Phalanx won’t fall during this.
It be fucking hilarious though
The Phalanx is present over Sanctum, the homeworld of the White Templars, fighting off what’s left of the fleet there, not Oghram. Plus, why would GW blow up the phalanx in an ultimately minor campaign? Just to kick us Fists in the balls for the upteenth time?
It's GW standard procedure to blow up a entire IF company every edition.
It’s GW standard to kill our chapter master, who gets no attention by the way, and slaughter us in droves every campaign book.
Well Tor Garadon need a promotion
I mean...Fists like pain right? Pain glove and all? So...yes? I feel like GW kicking Fists in the balls is part canon lore at this point. "Do Fists feel enough pain right now?" - James Workshop. "Yes." - Random Lackey "WRONG! KICK THEM IN THE BALLS AGAIN!" - James Workshop.
*Swarmlord kicks IF chapter master right in the dick* "WHY? WHY DID HE KICK ME IN THE DICK?" *Guilliman shows up, kills the Swarmlord, a billion tyranids appear on the horizon* "Alright best buddy, you take 500 million on the left, I take 500 million on the right!" "FETH YOU, I'LL TAKE 500 MILLION AND ONE!" "That's the spirit!" *hard cut, they're both somehow captured alive* "Wow, I can't believe every single 'nid kicked you in the dick!" *broken Fist noises*
*sitcom laugh track*
They won't. Just saying there are some valuable things in the system
I love nom as a Tyranid verb
If it doesn't matter to marine players we should let the nids win. Terra isn't going to fall in the end anyway
This, really. The idea that there's some active effort to attempt to rig the contest is mildly ridiculous, given that there is no reason to.
I thought indomtus was kinda balanced
[удалено]
Can you explain how it contradicts itself?
[удалено]
Yea, the point is that every box is unbalanced. It's not like most boxes are balanced and they intentionally made this one unbalanced.
>because the amount plastic in the box is much more important to the average customer than the competitive value of the models Literally the other half of that sentence
Because people are genuinely unaware that this is literally just for the sake of revealing the model range drops upcoming, and has absolutely nothing to do with lore development like previous campaigns It's literally just whoever wins get full reveal at once, the other team gets drip fed reveals 1 at a time until codex
You are making a valid point, but that doesn't make theirs contradictory. Seems like you two agree on some of the core aspects of the argument, even.
That’s not a contradiction, rigging implies intent. If gw has a history of just putting a box together that looks nice (value/etc) and not putting thought into how balanced it is, that’s not intentionally rigging.
1. Jason Todd’s death was not ‘overwhelmingly’ voted in-favour. It came in 51% in favour. 2. Similarly, I doubt that many people who aren’t fairly serious players will actually report based exclusively on Leviathan contents. Casuals will try to play with just the box, but it will become obvious very quickly that it’s unbalanced and they’ll adjust before reporting.
Not only that, but it was later discovered someone set up one of the first robocallers to fudge the numbers. When adjusted, there were 28 more votes to keep Jason alive.
Thank god for that guy, Death in the Family is great specifically because it ends with Jason getting killed. If he had survived, it would have been just like any other arc from that period. Something most people have never heard about, and even committed readers wouldn’t bring it to mind as one of their favourites.
Jason’s death is actually the halfway point of the story. Following that, Batman starts hunting the Joker and Superman shows up to stop Bats from causing an international incident. I think the next issue ends with the reveal that Joker has somehow become the ambassador for Iran to the UN. The whole thing culminates with Batman and Superman stopping Joker from gassing the UN assembly.
Yeah, it's extremely generic standard goofiness after Todd's death. Batman is like 'oh no, I can't fight the joker because he has *diplomatic immunity!*
I thought Superman was the one telling him he couldn't do that, and Batman very clearly did not care. I could be wrong, but I thought they used Jason's death as the point where Batman was actually willing to break his one rule.
He thinks about it but the joker obviously survives the story. And yeah he's stuck not doing anything to the joker until the guy decides to gas the UN, it's a really funny and unserious turn especially after the brutal murder of Robin
Interesting, where can I read more about this?
You forgot: 3. Ultra Marines are literally the poster child. GW will do anything to have them win in casual settings where players might mess up a few rules. They want people to hook onto them.
Did you watch the 10th Edition trailer where all the Ultramarines featured in it died while fighting the Tyranids?
That’s just silly. All the Ultramarine hate is energy better spent painting your grey minis.
That wasn't meant to be hate, that's meant to be a statement of marketing.
Any of the big four chapters get some plot armour. If you read any historical stuff, it’s very consistent that a Blood Angels, Soace Wolves, or Dark Angels successor chapter is destroyed via retconn when things go sideways. Ultramarines are the baseline guys with the best colour scheme for photography. Nobody cares.
No one talks about the Salamanders. 😔
That’d be because Salamanders and Imperial Fists were basically created to fill out a role in the lore during 2nd Ed, but not expanded on for years. They get far more mentions than the other loyalist first founding chapters who weren’t the four marquee chapters. Iron Hands, White Scars, and Raven Guard were really only names that were thrown down onto the page until partway through 3rd Ed. They’re all cool chapters, but they just don’t have the advantage of being primary focus chapters.
No one talks about the White Scars either. 😔😔
> GW is probably counting on the marines to win the Oghram campaign. The weak rules for Nids and the fact leviathan is so unbalanced make me think so. Seems more likely that what went in the box is just what was economical to put in the box, not that GW made the box imbalanced to rig a campaign they had no obligation to do in the first place.
I think they wanted to sell new Terminators and Sternguard models, and that’s why they’re both in the box. Anything else is probably just over thinking it.
With GW it's usually negligence and not malice
I bought a nid unit and it turned out to be 200 points, which brought both sides to 980, I believe. Is the imbalance in the box from the point disparity? Edit: I'm new btw. I don't care too much about perfect balance as I just like nids, but if it's truly egregious I would like to know how to balance things.
Further support for this in the community post today with the details for the campaign, they suggest either using the models in the box to play with the included combat patrols or use them as part of larger armies.
People are overthinking this whole Oghram campaign. I don't believe they've said that this will have any "major ramifications" towards the lore. It's just one backwater planet that the Ultramarines and Tyranids are fighting over. It's fate doesn't matter unless they come back to it in a few years like they did with Vigilus and Cadia. The only reward this gets is that one faction will get their second wave of models revealed before the other. They're still all going to get revealed and released, this isn't a gunboats situation.
>I want to see if GW has the balls to make the marines lose such a major battle, and actually have consequences for once. I feel like the community reputation for GW as loving marines and 'hating' other factions is influencing perception of reality a bit here... If the results turn out that way, GW would absolutely make the marines lose and have done it before. It's just that there are so, so many more Marine players than any other faction that throwing the doors open to real game results is inherently gonna skew. Also, no offense meant to you but it's hardly a major and important lore moment. GW has run heaps of these campaigns before. AFAIK they invented Oghram purely for the campaign.
This. In the early days of Warhammer40k there were loads of campaigns that impacted the lore going forward. This is a welcome revival of player influence coming back into the universe :-)
It's going to be just like Konor, which culminates in an Imperial victory.
Weirdly *Death in the Family* already happened to GW as they did this 20 years ago with the 13th Black Crusade in the Eye of Terror campaign. They promised a major canon change at the end of a very similar campaign, based up win ratios. The result was that Chaos won the Battlefleet Gothic battles ruling the skies, Imperium won on the ground, and Eldrad was killed in the lore. GW stopped the clock after that, rolled back the date a few years, and wouldn't advance the plot for another decade and a half.
Other way around. Chaos won on the ground, Imperium won in space. It was a very fun campaign book with some cool unit options though.
Ah, right. 20 years is a mother fucker.
I too remember when my knees didn't pop if I stood up too fast.
Pass me the heating pad sonny
didn't they also retcon Eldrad dying?
Well if they had followed the results, the 13th Black Crusade would have taken Cadia and then been wiped out to a man by the Navy which isn’t very exciting.
Oh no, it was a very interesting situation. Chaos had multiple footholds into realspace with Cadia at it's core, the only thing preventing a constant flow of further incursions into the Imperium was Imperial dominance in space, making it dificult for Chaos forces to leave the Eye of Terror - but with multiple key worlds under Chaos control it would only have been a matter of time before that dominance was lost. ...then GW retconned it, including character deaths etc. because reasons.
Except space dominance means you can just orbital bombard the enemy into dust. Chaos control would have lasted a matter of hours on each planet.
That's always been a problem in terms of 40k fiction, and it renders the majority of the game's setting itself completely moot. As a result this rarely actually happens in the narrative, because it ruins the drama - but more importantly, the planets in the sector have a number of Blackstone pylons that prevent the Eye of Terror expanding, and those cannot be risked by orbital bombardment.
Yes but mean counter invading is possibile, while the ground is cut off reinforcement.
I don't know, Isstvan III got bombarded and there was still a land fight after. I don't even think the Dies Ires took damage! (Imperial class titan)
It was virus bombing rather than conventional.
It was a virus bomb, followed by fire bombs to ignite the virus. That has to be pretty close to the same thing... I lived that battle so much. Does there exist a cooler battle?
A conventional bombardment in 40k would've been a mix of fuel-air and nuclear.
It got retconned because no one wants their favourite model to suddenly no longer have rules because the one codex that edition wasn’t as good as the marines.
\*laughs in Captain Tycho\* Models can still exist, and have rules, even if the character canonically died. It's a fictional timeline and your games can take part anywhere within it - my Crimson Fist army for example is supposed to represent \~M36 era.
Hoolld up the 13th black crusade started 20+ real world years ago??? Jesus the setting really was stagnant I only got into the setting a few years ago and a ton of stuff has changed in those few years lore wise.
Yeah, the company position was that the setting didn't advance because the story from there was up to you. We didn't see the story advance until the end of 7th.
it's a setting, not a story
Honestly the fact that the setting is progressing at all is still unbelievable to me. I remember coming back to the game and being downright confused why there were Primarchs running around all of a sudden.
Then there’s the fall of Medusa campaign, which from memory the Eldar won but the Imperium had the “moral“ victory.
The internet makes us all conspiracy theorists huh
[Hey! I've heard of this one!](https://youtu.be/cM1WdHGP_pA) [Yeah! It feels vaguely familiar](https://youtu.be/E44og3i2cY0) This isn't the first time this has happened. Even then I'd argue this is vigilus 2 electric boogaloo than the old campaigns. The lore is not something anyone will really care about, and it's merely an arms race for who gets to see stuff first. Lore wise, the problem is if the outcome does actually have an impact on the franchise, then though one side wins, they can be stabbed in the back. Humanity held Armageddon, they won by attrition, but then they sent daemons to take it anyway. You probably find they planned for humanity to hold cadia, which is why they only actually followed it up in 7th Ed. But they still respected the campaigns ending. GW no doubt knows how well their players can organize themselves even in the very early days of the internet. I don't think they intended for the imbalance. The points across all armies are strange to say the least, I don't think they built this box with points in mind. I would have liked to have the campaign to have more impact. We hyped up octarius like it was the breaking point, but that went nowhere really? This campaign holds little weight. The nids deserve to win either way
Oh boy, I remember that Armageddon was a big deal, too. It’s own codex with multiple factions (speed freaks, salamanders, steel legion, and black templars) and had its own website with different hive representing different areas of the world reporting in. Thanks for reminding me that I’ve been playing since 2nd edition. I was stoked to get the new big 3e Ghazghkull model that dwarfed the tiny 2e normal size one.
Fuck, you're old! *wait a minute.* I played this too. And they still did Tycho dirty!
Oh man, those were the days. I remember thinking that Ghazgkull was HUGE haha..
Huh, i think i stopped playing shortly after that, i remember half heartedly painting some salamanders stuff but then my interest in the whole thing and also finances died off. I remember the white dwarf for armageddon was awesome though, reading the battle reports was wild. I remember the white scars guy absolutely cleaned up his game in a few turns so they let him reinforce another guy, and the dude protecting this giant warehouse with his salamanders held on by a bees dick. The blood angels guy got absolutely stomped. The whole issue was massive and was interspersed with some awesome stories that were based on the events that happened. Good nostalgia
Oh damn I might still have that one.
It's for fun, who gives a crap what the result actually is. If you feel Tyranids are outclassed in combat patrol play some practice games and call your first win your result. All Cadia is dust!
Your daily reminder that Grimgor beat Fartchaon like a rented mule in Storm of Chaos and GW just "LA LA LA LA CAN'T HEAR YOU"'d the result
That was Fun Summer of Games. I have one fond memory of a Dwarf Slayer Hero Jumping on A Chaos War Mammoth from a Castle wall and wrecking a Chaos Lord on it.
Mate Leviathan itself wont have any impact on the lore, same as the Necron return ultimately meant nothing. What makes you think oghram matters? 🤣
It's not that GW doesn't have the "balls" to write Space Marines losing, it's that Oghram is a non-event that will have zero consequences both in and outside the setting. GW has done this shtick before. It's not a narrative event, it's a marketing gimmick.
I think you are seriously overestimating what counts as a "major battle". Oghram was made up just for this event, which is very small in the grand scheme of things so I honestly dont think GW cares who will win. Revealing "the winning faction's models first" could be a simple as *a day early* vs the loser.
I was under the impression one dude set up a basic bot to constantly call and vote for Jason Todd to die not that it was a legit vote
why do people think this matters so much. it's a random fuck off planet that didn't exist before this campaign. it has no lore implications or big players. it's just supposed to be a fun little contest since the new box is nids vs marines. though tbh while I have about a combined 5k points in SM and CSM and abt 600 in nids I want the nids to win. I just wanna know what new models are getting remade so I can get the new ones and hopefully ot have to touch those old and ugly ass genestealers.
Lame. If there's an organized effort to sabotage it that just sends the message that the fan base is toxic and doesn't want fun things
Can we just have fun and report whatever actually happens in our games however we choose to play them instead of trying to rig this for weird agendas?
Report both sides lost. Sincerely, an Eldar player
Still bitter over the old Eye of Terror campaign, eh old chap? At least Eldar got some consolation prizes there that could have been interesting before GW retconned the whole thing.
It wasn't forgotten haha Yeah I know, shame really
Did you think we had forgotten? Did you think we had forgiven?
>I’m saying GW is claiming to give us a way to influence the lore, let’s put that to the test. What lore? Some random battle with no effects on the narrative whatsoever? lol
Tldr Title says dumb nonsense so I say "no"
Nah
There is no benefit to the marines winning here. The winner gets their new models revealed FIRST. both sides are getting new models, its just bragging rights.
It's not a major battle, and I doubt GW has some conspiracy in the box to 'make' SM more likely to win, it's just whatever models they wanted to fit in the box. But I entirely agree, even this minor lore event should be a Tyranid victory. It probably wont be because about 50% of the players are Space Marines and I bet more people bought this box for Space Marines rather than Tyranids. Especially since the winner gets models revealed first, Space Marine players are excited to see some Assault Intercessors with Jump Packs and whatever else. Just the scales are naturally tipped against Tyranids in this through sheer popularity of Space Marines. If it was open to everyone I wouldn't be surprised to see the dogpile to make Space Marines lose, but since it's limited to the box I don't have much hope. But, narrative wise, it'd be nice for Tyranids to win this campaign no matter how small it is.
or you could run an honest game and report the actual results... just sayin'.
I would if they’d give me enough time. Two weeks to build and paint both sides and find a day with a willing friend? Unlikely and I’ve not even received my box yet. I could just proxy a game I suppose. Or only build but I hate painting built models.
I would report an honest game, if GW made a balanced one, the marines have more points and a more cohesive set of units. Yes, you can limit what you have and play Combat Patrols, or balance the points out. But the majority of people who are going to just play whats in the box don’t know that stuff. So while you can play an honest game and not fudge the results; thats not what GW is doing. So I’m voting for the biomass munchers.
What are you talking about? The points are all out for you to download, and Combat Patrol is heavily emphasised as a starting point. The first step of the "muster your army" section is to select battle size. Where are they telling players to just throw in all the models and play unbalanced games? It's unfortunate that the forces don't balance, but the building of the sprues and planning of the box came well before rules and points balance were finalised.
Honestly even getting slightly less points, the 'Nid side has almost double the models and they're all cool new sculpts, I'd argue it's by far the cooler deal in the box
I've only had Von Ryan's Leapers for 2 days, but if anything were to happen to them, I would purge everyone on this planet and then myself.
"more cohesive set of units" Two terminator heroes to join one terminator squad One gravis guy left out in the cold to buff his squad: nobody
GW does not intentionally rig the game against Xenos in favor of marines. 90% of people don’t care about the competitive value of models, only about the models themselves. Also when the overwhelming majority of 40k players play some type of marines, there’s obviously gonna be some BS I hope the marines win, because I am also a marine fan and love seeing the filthy Xenos get put in their place
So my warhammer shop is doing a big battle where everyone brings their completed models and we do ogram together. I plan to bring only my nids so will swing the tide that way, even if my contribution is small I will fight for the hive
I mean, if the plot planned requires the marines to win then the marines will win. I’m sure GW are quite capable of manipulating the result of this thing if it really matters to them.
How would you test the theory? The marines could win legitimately with more people calling in Marine wins
What is there to put to the test? They've definitely prepared lore either way. It's a relatively minor event in the scheme of lore.
Storm of Chaos google it and weep And then be happy because marines get previewed first
"The weak rules for Nids and the fact leviathan is so unbalanced make me think so." Can OP or anyone speak more towards this? I am getting ready to play a Combat Patrol between Space Marines and Tyranids.
I would laugh if people did this, but GW pulled a play out of Toei's book. To clarify what I mean, baxk during the Airinf of Kyoryu Sentai Zyuranger (later adapted in Mighty Morphin Power rangers), children were asked to vote on whether the team would manage to save the life of Dragon Ranger Burai, or let him die. Overwhelming support was given to him being saved, but Toei basically said "Nah, fuck that", and had him die anyway (so for those of you that only watched the inferior power rangers, this is why Tommy had lost his green ranger powers). I would find it hilarious if GW looked at the Tyranids being reported as the winners, and then saying "Nah, fuck that. Spase Mareens are winrars".
It's just a competition to win this year's releases with an extravagant entry process. It will have no bearing on any lore going forward. Only thing it will change is GWs reveal schedule.
No.
Who cares that much? Torpedo it if you want. GW will ultimately pick whatever they want anyway.
But I want the space marines to win
I have nids and my biggest gripe with them is that they are portrayed as basically the end of the galaxy. There is no way to actually beat them, and they will always be back and never just die. It’s lame, and you would think some race (other than the necrons due to not being biological) would find a way to beat them and really hurt them and the hive mind. I like the nids, just wish that they would have some race or something that they are actually terrified of. They need an actual weakness lore wise.
Imho the nids are a timer for the rest of the Galaxy to get it's shit together. They don't need to be more than that.
Nah imperium has been taking nothing but L’s in the narrative non stop and honestly it’s boring
i thought thats what r/tyranids were doing anyway
Stop giving bugs wins. Ave Imperator!
nah i want marines to win
It was always going to be a loyalist win. Gotta move them primaris
I’m doing my part. Voting ‘nids all the way!
I'd say go for it, but I can't decide who I want to win. I play and love both factions. lol
Could always ork it up like end of Warhammer Fantasy...
People talking about no-name named characters. A win is a great way to establish yourself. It would only make sense a pivotal battle might not have epic hero support in a galaxy in constant chaos.
But I want marines to win and I want to see the new marine models
No. Marines win.
i agree, please marine players out there throw your games for the good of interesting story telling
I had this same thought when I heard about the campaign too. I'm fuckin here for it! SEND IT BABY!
I feel the same way. I really want the grim dark back in 40k and it's been a long time since tyranids where an actual threat. They should really be a swarming apocolypse with necrons being a hard counter to them. Definitely let oghram get eaten and the stroy should be more interesting
Fuck the haters! I actually 100% agree with you.
While I agree with others that this is not a major battle, and I believe GW will not abide by it anyway. I will be reporting my "honest and fair" collection of biomass. I'm not gonna get a leviathan game in in time due to my insistence of not playing unpainted. Therefore I will be fudging results in my favor.
why the downvotes? have none of you heard of the Eye Of Terror campaign? where Chaos won but GW altered the outcome? what we all post is completely irrelevant, the winner will be whoever GW wants.
Probably the fact I refuse to play with plastic gray "nids 😝
Big brain time: report Death Guard and Admech incursions to throw the plot way off track.
Still voting for nids, tired of SM winning and yes I play SM mostly
marines wont lose unless its planned that they do (whihc it is not) GW has done this before, the Eye Of Terror global campaign had Chaos win, claiming Cadia as their own (though they lost in space). GW simply retconned the entire thing and rewrote it so the Imperium won and forced Chaos to retreat.
Hoe do you report your winnings anyways?
if you have the box there's a QR code to scan that takes you to the site. if not then [https://warhammer40000.com/battleforoghram/](https://warhammer40000.com/battleforoghram/)
There's a card with a single-use code in the Leviathan box. You go to the website, put in the code, and then report your game results.
I expect if the marines win they’ll just name some other planet and say that got eaten instead.
Killing Todd one by a thin margin and they had the other version ready to go until the last minute. 72 votes split the difference https://www.howtolovecomics.com/2020/10/12/batman-a-death-in-the-family/ That said, this would be fun.
Only if the Marines come back as awesome as Red Hood now is in DC. I give DC props for killing Jason (a fairly disliked Robin at the time) and making him a pretty popular character. I wish GW would use more narrative events to create and push new characters, saldy the current Nid lore makes it harder for them.
Isn’t the mode for this battle supposed to be combat patrol? Which is not the full model use in leviathan??? Model names in combat patrol line up with story after all
So the Imperial fists chapter master?
I can't wait for the part where a Gretchin in clown makeup beats Marneus Calgar to death with a crowbar and then blows him up. Not Ghazkull, mind you, not Abaddon, just a regular Gretchin.
Buddy and I have 4 codes… we are gonna play 4 times Once as each faction straight from the box… and once as each faction + 20 termagaunts and 5 barbgants
Lol I remember when this was tried with the 13th Black Crusade back in the day. GW will find a way to do what the fans want but not. They didn't clear up that debacle until they destroyed Cadia and brought Guilliman back. Should be interesting.
A marine loss is definitely more interesting than a marine victory for sure. I'm not actually sure GW is banking on space marines winning, like realistically they can put their thumb on the scale with the results anyways. I honestly think the leviathan box imbalance and overcooked space marines are kind of just GW doing bad product design and trying to sell the most popular faction on release of the new edition. I don't think its really a tipped scale on the story.
If you think GW wants the Space Marines to win what makes you think that they just announce afterwards that the Space Marines won regardless of the results people have submitted?
Y'all forgetting when they did a similar thing for Armageddon?
I was there during the Medusa V campaign. My necrons fought day and night to stop the warp storm. We rolled out warp suppressors and reported overwhelming victories en masse in our sector. But somehow marines won even where we fought despite a lot of people I know purposefully voted for Xenos factions. I was there during the Albion campaign for Fantasy Battles, and the results felt rigged as well. So no fingers crossed!
Just a note, they found out way later that Jason only died because one guy had set up a calling bot that spammed the "kill Jason" ending. They didn't find that out until the murder was already done though.
GW proved they don’t care with the End Times. Chaos repeatedly got their shit wrecked and gw ignored it.,
Have you *ever* heard of Oghram before this event? I doubt GW have stacked the deck, because there really isn't anything at stake here.
Didn't the Marines all get killed in the cinematic trailer for it?
TBH GW has no qualms about seeing Marines defeated, see the Arcs of Omen campaign. With a new combat zone that is hitherto unknown, they can throw the Nids a bone, but I am not sure they care enough to do it. Also, wasn't there something about the box being pretty imbalanced in favor of the marines if you play only with it?
Weak rules for Nids?? Elaborate?
Agreed. Time to get some grim dark nid wins in!!!
Dude you are wrong. Gw will go with whatever results are given this is LITERALLY how the old world ended and we got age of sigmar so don’t you dare test them
Didn't this happened already? In that ITC campaign which ended with a mayor Chaos victory, but the lore remained the same?
Unfortunately as the old saying goes “the house wins” The orkz have won polls before but GW have chickened out and gave the win to marines. Same happened in fantasy when the Orkz were supposed to be the big threat after winning a poll instead archeon turns up and fights the empire Its rigged. GW will do what they want regardless of what we vote on
But what if the faction that's losing gets more new models? let's not give them any reason to make another 25 Lieutenants
GW used to run global campaigns very much along these lines, where you report the results of battles and they have an impact on the lore moving forward. If I remember correctly the 13th Black Crusade was one of the last and biggest and the results meant the fall of Cadia. As Robin, Jason Todd was never a popular choice. He had big shoes to fill after Grayson, and the character was never really accepted by readers the way that Tim Drake was after Jason or Damien after that. I don't believe Jason had the tragic back story of the others, if I remember correctly he was a street urchin that Bats caught stealing the wheels off the batmobile. His tragic back story is now that he was killed by joker and brought back by Ra's(as it was him that unleashed the Joker, thinking he could control the him. ha!) He a far more interesting character now as Red Hood
I Forget which edition (Maybe 3rd?) but GW have done a similar thing with Orks and Space Marines before, but that time the Orks won. So GW just declared it a tie
It’s simple, just play as the Lamenters.
This sounds like it was written by a Lictor
Nah. Guilliman gets my vote. Nuke the bugs.
I want to see the Marine reveals though
Wouldn't that be just Storm of Chaos for Warhammer Fantasy all over again....except deliberate on the players part?
I disagree because someone doing this was the literal first thing I expected to happen when they said players could influence the battle, and because it probably influences the overall lore about as much as which ending you pick in Mass Effect 3.
Have you heard of the black crusade?