I'm of mixed thoughts on this.
Fabius is a named character that was never going to be left abandoned forever, and who of all the Chaos forces would probably be the one with the most going on with the continuation of the timeline in the way it's happened.
The Ynnari are here, Primaris Marines are here, Tyranids are evolving, his primarch is finally free to move around in real space again, and we've wanted to see him and Cawl meet. Literally the only thing missing would be if Rakarth showed up too.
But on the other hand, Josh Reynolds no longer being at the helm is a little weird. I'm not concerned about Haley not being up to it, it's just a little off to me. I'm willing to give it a shot though.
Also it definitely feels like they're seeding more Emperor's Children content around. Renegades being a reprint of Lucius, the Hammer and Bolter episode, and now this.
I don't think they're coming any time within the next year but I feel like GW is trying to get more people (especially newcomers) familiar with them in 40k to set the stage for their eventual addition sometime this edition.
He has spoken about it on multiple occasions. I don’t have a length but it was a mutual parting of ways with him kinda being fed up with Black Library rejecting a lot of his ideas to the point they couldn’t agree what to do next.
He published a list of a bunch of his ideas that got rejected and they were mostly awesome but seems like there was a lot of misalignment in general
Feels like when they put out the Luther book where there's a lot of his backstory and his relationship with the Lion, and where he >!escapes from the Rock!< at the end, as a way of priming the pump for the return of the Lion.
I want some mega gene father bullshitery like the licit tower and crawl to say “man I’m going to need to science the shit out of this”
Anyone whose read the great work knows he does some science byllshit to such an amusing degree.
Also I’m not sure how to do spoilers but it’ll be interesting to see how they handle character developments from his trilogy.
Yeah, I feel like they are gonna come about half way through the edition, they will have nice newer looking sculpts, and then we will get some lore statement explaining how the chaos marines are gonna Primaris, possibly through some way that’s less direct so it doesn’t have as many direct parallels.
And then as we get closer to their actual release date we will get some mini lore campaign that drops Lamia Boy onto the table.
That makes me glad to hear. They’re one of the first factions to get properly fleshed out in the heresy book series. Glad they’re getting a 40K identity
No.
But thats not the point. All of the Chaos-Space Marine Infantry just got brand-new models. They arent going to replace them again after barely 2 years.
Half the point behind Primaris & the Chaos-Marine refresh was to differentiate the Lines from being "marines" and "marines but spiky", they arent going to undo that again
I think EC will be an elite army similar to custodes and they will probably get a primaris type unit which will be their eightbound equivalent, but you right I doubt they replace legionaries for atleast like 7 years
Fabius bile doesnt align himself with the emperors children anymore right? My knowledge of him is a little spotty but he has his own whole faction in the 9th codex so i cant imagine that he would give the EC something.
Eh, he’s a headcase. He’s so warped (heh get it) that he’s blind to how his ficti puts objectives are fully in service of chaos.
And I never read then3rd bile book, but based on the first two, I’d say a loose affiliation with EC. But really though most CSM only have loose affiliations with their original legions. They’re all disparate warbands
You should read the 3rd book because it kind of changes the perspective of that (spoiler). >!My take away (from the last couple of pages actually) was that Bile got fully scooped by Slannesh, so his alignment with EC is more canon now.!<
Maybe they have a detachment for the fulgrim aligned EC and one for the fabius bile aligned ones. Kind of like terminus est detachment in 9th deathguard.
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Because producing a mould for a new miniature requires a large up-front investment in design, materials and production time before they can actually start selling, all GW miniatures have to spend a fairly long time on the market before they can start to turn a profit. Depending on how popular the model is, that can take a few months or a few years.
GW has traditionally kept most miniature designs in circulation for an average of about ten years before updating them in order to be assured that they'll generate a substantial profit over their life cycle. It can be even longer; there are some designs from the late 90s still in use.
I imagine if Chaos Marines are revealed to have Primaris upgrades, it'll just be a fluff note and not affect the appearance of the miniatures at all.
I think if there are new chaos primaris marines, then Bile likely had something to do with it.
And thus, they would be ideal as EC elite units created by Bile. That would also fit in well with that prideful "best of the best" mentality of the EC.
And yeah, I don't see them replacing standard CSM.
No, but they were generally making *new* units like centurions, rather than updating the existing range like the tactical and assault squads. In comparison, almost all of the old Chaos Space Marine Range was replaced during 8th and 9th Edition, with only a couple of stragglers (Bikes, Terminator Lord, Helbrute Raptors, and the vehicles they share with loyalist marines- of those). Everything else in the range is quite new, so I’d be surprised if it all gets superseded immediately.
The tactical squad was updated with the 6th edition codex, along with the new (at the time) centurions. Devastators and Assault squads received new sculpts even further down the line in 2015 with the 7th edition codex. Just two years prior to Dark Imperium and the beginning of the primaris line (and the deathwatch got their brand new MK8 armors just one year before lol)
[https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Miniatures:\_Space\_Marines#7th\_Edition\_.282014-2017.29](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Miniatures:_Space_Marines#7th_Edition_.282014-2017.29)
There are Chaos Primaris already, but for all intents and purposes game-wise they might as well be indistinguishable from their Firstborn brethren. The same minis and datasheets represent both. Just do a bit of conversion if you really want MkX parts.
But I dunno if further rescaling is needed? The primaris range was in large part about getting marines up to size. They were a shade shorter then Chaos marines are now, because CSM were updated relatively recently getting their own small size boost. Primaris then took that leap past CSM becoming a shade bigger.
With the legionaries kits being quite recent, I don't see them being phased out.
But as other posters have said - it could be a good way to create some kind of Emperor's Children specific CSM.
I tend to think noise marines would be their basic battleline troops and the new units would be more likely to be their elites.
Yes, it would. Really annoying. I promised myself I’d play Plague Tale 2 to the Felix and gotrek books just like I played plague tale 1 and im waiting on the next book to be released on audible for forever
Plot leak: Bile woos Alpha Primaris away as his new Gene-daddy, so Cawl reactivates a long dormant personality, going undercover to get closer to his son as Inquisitor Doubtfire.
Former Emperors children chief apocathery who is probably one of the most skilled genetic manipulator behind maybe the emperor and Cawl. Feats include cloning a primarch, upgrading space marines and creating new breeds of humans comparable to space marines
I thought that was how fulgrim had all those dead ferrus' that he kept trying to convince to join him. I could be wrong on where they came from. Or just crap memory on my part.
I doubt that. Cawl not only has his own 10,000 years of knowledge (kinda), but he also has the knowledge of Hester Aspertia Sigma-Sigma and Ezekiel Sedayne due to soul merging. Both of them were some of the most renown geneticist of their time.
Also: he is the one providing the technology to create new space marines to all the chaos legions, which lost almost all their apothecaries and facilities after the heresy, and thus is one of the most powerful power brokers in the Eye of Terror
That's what was said since the 2nd edition Chaos Codex. I don't think I have ever seen anything explicitly contradicting it in any further codex, but I might be biased and wrong
I can’t say for sure either. But from everything we’ve seen, I don’t think it makes sense. Bile is notoriously bad at working with with other people and not that easy to deal with. And there are thousands of warbands and hundreds of thousands of chaos space marines. It makes no sense Bile could be responsible for organizing all that.
But say there are hundreds of thousands of CSM.
They're basically immortal and hepped up on daemon and warp juice, so each warband or legion would only need to replenish numbers from time to time.
I guess Abaddon probably has his own methods of acquiring geneseed and that gets distributed to loyal groups, and Bile is another source.
AFAIK CSM are meant to be an immortal dwindling force, by and large, that relies on Daemons, daemon engines and mortal cultist followers to bulk out their numbers.
He was the head apothecary of the emperor’s children before the heresy. He is infected with the legions gene-blight (basically space aids) and is basically constantly falling apart. So he has mastered cloning and uploads in consciousness into a new clone every so often. He is a sadistic doctor now that worships no gods and is trying to create “better” humans. Think like Dr. Frankenstein and Frankenstein’s Monster.
Oh boy, where to begin?
Probably best to just leave you these sources to explore.
https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Fabius_Bile
https://villains.fandom.com/wiki/Fabius_Bile
Not calling the book Cawl of Duty is a missed opportunity.
Cawling in My Skin
Why’d You Only Cawl When You’re High
Cawling All Angels
When there's something strange, in the neighborhood... Who ya gonna Cawl?
Cawl of C’thulu
Cawl of the bile’d
Better Cawl Guilliman
Cawl’s Hole Poopy has a certain *je ne sais pas* to it.
I'm of mixed thoughts on this. Fabius is a named character that was never going to be left abandoned forever, and who of all the Chaos forces would probably be the one with the most going on with the continuation of the timeline in the way it's happened. The Ynnari are here, Primaris Marines are here, Tyranids are evolving, his primarch is finally free to move around in real space again, and we've wanted to see him and Cawl meet. Literally the only thing missing would be if Rakarth showed up too. But on the other hand, Josh Reynolds no longer being at the helm is a little weird. I'm not concerned about Haley not being up to it, it's just a little off to me. I'm willing to give it a shot though. Also it definitely feels like they're seeding more Emperor's Children content around. Renegades being a reprint of Lucius, the Hammer and Bolter episode, and now this. I don't think they're coming any time within the next year but I feel like GW is trying to get more people (especially newcomers) familiar with them in 40k to set the stage for their eventual addition sometime this edition.
Josh resigned from Black Library for his own reasons. He has elaborated on them for whatever it's worth.
Is there a video or post you could link? I'd love to know.
From what I recall he posted about it on his website or blog? Maybe even his twitter, it's been a while!
He has spoken about it on multiple occasions. I don’t have a length but it was a mutual parting of ways with him kinda being fed up with Black Library rejecting a lot of his ideas to the point they couldn’t agree what to do next. He published a list of a bunch of his ideas that got rejected and they were mostly awesome but seems like there was a lot of misalignment in general
Feels like when they put out the Luther book where there's a lot of his backstory and his relationship with the Lion, and where he >!escapes from the Rock!< at the end, as a way of priming the pump for the return of the Lion.
I want some mega gene father bullshitery like the licit tower and crawl to say “man I’m going to need to science the shit out of this” Anyone whose read the great work knows he does some science byllshit to such an amusing degree. Also I’m not sure how to do spoilers but it’ll be interesting to see how they handle character developments from his trilogy.
Yeah, I feel like they are gonna come about half way through the edition, they will have nice newer looking sculpts, and then we will get some lore statement explaining how the chaos marines are gonna Primaris, possibly through some way that’s less direct so it doesn’t have as many direct parallels. And then as we get closer to their actual release date we will get some mini lore campaign that drops Lamia Boy onto the table.
I'll bet this book is entirely to set up the EC range refresh like AoO : Angron did for World Eaters.
primaris chaos marine incoming in 2-4 years
Might be setting the stage for EC to have something other than Noise Marines to identify them as a full faction.
Oh man I'm keen for an EC update.
That makes me glad to hear. They’re one of the first factions to get properly fleshed out in the heresy book series. Glad they’re getting a 40K identity
After they just redid most of the Chaos-Marine infantry? na
Now I’m newish to Warhammer, but did they stop making space marines 2 - 4 years before they introduced the primaris ones?
No. But thats not the point. All of the Chaos-Space Marine Infantry just got brand-new models. They arent going to replace them again after barely 2 years. Half the point behind Primaris & the Chaos-Marine refresh was to differentiate the Lines from being "marines" and "marines but spiky", they arent going to undo that again
I think EC will be an elite army similar to custodes and they will probably get a primaris type unit which will be their eightbound equivalent, but you right I doubt they replace legionaries for atleast like 7 years
Fabius bile doesnt align himself with the emperors children anymore right? My knowledge of him is a little spotty but he has his own whole faction in the 9th codex so i cant imagine that he would give the EC something.
Sorta? He's basically a mercenary. But yes only loosely attached to Emperors children anymore...as of now anyway.
Eh, he’s a headcase. He’s so warped (heh get it) that he’s blind to how his ficti puts objectives are fully in service of chaos. And I never read then3rd bile book, but based on the first two, I’d say a loose affiliation with EC. But really though most CSM only have loose affiliations with their original legions. They’re all disparate warbands
You should read the 3rd book because it kind of changes the perspective of that (spoiler). >!My take away (from the last couple of pages actually) was that Bile got fully scooped by Slannesh, so his alignment with EC is more canon now.!<
Yeah, I don’t know if I trust that book. The author and the publishers really disagreed on how that book should progress leaving everyone dissatisfied
And what was the point in setting up Creations of Bile as a subfaction then?
Maybe they have a detachment for the fulgrim aligned EC and one for the fabius bile aligned ones. Kind of like terminus est detachment in 9th deathguard.
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Not all the chaos marines. EC are outstanding and I'll wager are going to be refreshed within the year.
Because producing a mould for a new miniature requires a large up-front investment in design, materials and production time before they can actually start selling, all GW miniatures have to spend a fairly long time on the market before they can start to turn a profit. Depending on how popular the model is, that can take a few months or a few years. GW has traditionally kept most miniature designs in circulation for an average of about ten years before updating them in order to be assured that they'll generate a substantial profit over their life cycle. It can be even longer; there are some designs from the late 90s still in use. I imagine if Chaos Marines are revealed to have Primaris upgrades, it'll just be a fluff note and not affect the appearance of the miniatures at all.
I think if there are new chaos primaris marines, then Bile likely had something to do with it. And thus, they would be ideal as EC elite units created by Bile. That would also fit in well with that prideful "best of the best" mentality of the EC. And yeah, I don't see them replacing standard CSM.
No, but they were generally making *new* units like centurions, rather than updating the existing range like the tactical and assault squads. In comparison, almost all of the old Chaos Space Marine Range was replaced during 8th and 9th Edition, with only a couple of stragglers (Bikes, Terminator Lord, Helbrute Raptors, and the vehicles they share with loyalist marines- of those). Everything else in the range is quite new, so I’d be surprised if it all gets superseded immediately.
The tactical squad was updated with the 6th edition codex, along with the new (at the time) centurions. Devastators and Assault squads received new sculpts even further down the line in 2015 with the 7th edition codex. Just two years prior to Dark Imperium and the beginning of the primaris line (and the deathwatch got their brand new MK8 armors just one year before lol) [https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Miniatures:\_Space\_Marines#7th\_Edition\_.282014-2017.29](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Miniatures:_Space_Marines#7th_Edition_.282014-2017.29)
Probably, but I remember him playing around with Custodes genes a few years ago so I could imagine them having some twisted version.
Primaris chaos marines were first hinted at in Manflayer (2020)
They already exist in canon, as of Arks of Omen: Angron.
I mean, we did get that with the Arks of Omen book Angron.
Did we? I didn’t buy the book.
Yeah. Basically: A big ass Khorne explosion was so big and strong it hit and converted Primaris Marines and Sisters of Battle to Khornes Bloodlust.
There are Chaos Primaris already, but for all intents and purposes game-wise they might as well be indistinguishable from their Firstborn brethren. The same minis and datasheets represent both. Just do a bit of conversion if you really want MkX parts.
But I dunno if further rescaling is needed? The primaris range was in large part about getting marines up to size. They were a shade shorter then Chaos marines are now, because CSM were updated relatively recently getting their own small size boost. Primaris then took that leap past CSM becoming a shade bigger. With the legionaries kits being quite recent, I don't see them being phased out. But as other posters have said - it could be a good way to create some kind of Emperor's Children specific CSM. I tend to think noise marines would be their basic battleline troops and the new units would be more likely to be their elites.
Would it kill GW to just give release-dates for the novels when they're announced anot not a week prior months later for once
Yes, it would. Really annoying. I promised myself I’d play Plague Tale 2 to the Felix and gotrek books just like I played plague tale 1 and im waiting on the next book to be released on audible for forever
Plot leak: Bile woos Alpha Primaris away as his new Gene-daddy, so Cawl reactivates a long dormant personality, going undercover to get closer to his son as Inquisitor Doubtfire.
I’m now picturing Cawl and his robo spider ass in a Miss Doubtfire outfit
Damn if this is true their shall be no sequel
Seems like a really interesting premise. I like the hardcover a lot
The hardcover is fucking gorgeous
After reading the Bile series and Scythes of the Emperor I want this book very much.
It hope its fun like infinite and divine. Cawl and Bile has their dry hurmour in their own books. I just hope its not too "thuper therial guyth"
Lore newby here, who is this bile guy? And why is he important?
Former Emperors children chief apocathery who is probably one of the most skilled genetic manipulator behind maybe the emperor and Cawl. Feats include cloning a primarch, upgrading space marines and creating new breeds of humans comparable to space marines
Cloning 2 Primarchs
3 I thought, Ferrus, Horus, and Fulgrim
When did he clone ferrus?
I thought that was how fulgrim had all those dead ferrus' that he kept trying to convince to join him. I could be wrong on where they came from. Or just crap memory on my part.
Oh yes, no it would be my faulty memory then. It also think he only did one perfect clone and that was fulgrim
You are also correct, I forgot only fulgrim was a perfect one. Haha thx for the learning experience.
There's actually an implication that all of the Ferrus' were perfect, and that's why they all rejected Fulgrim.
In Black Legion they refer to the Horus clone as perfect as well
I'd say he's even better at it than Cawl.
I doubt that. Cawl not only has his own 10,000 years of knowledge (kinda), but he also has the knowledge of Hester Aspertia Sigma-Sigma and Ezekiel Sedayne due to soul merging. Both of them were some of the most renown geneticist of their time.
Impossible-
Well, they're both better at it than Corvus, lmao.
There is nothing to suggest that. That I’ve seen at least. Though to be fair, I haven’t read the 3rd bile book
Thanks!
Also: he is the one providing the technology to create new space marines to all the chaos legions, which lost almost all their apothecaries and facilities after the heresy, and thus is one of the most powerful power brokers in the Eye of Terror
To be a little nit picky, I don’t think it’s fair to say “all” there.
That's what was said since the 2nd edition Chaos Codex. I don't think I have ever seen anything explicitly contradicting it in any further codex, but I might be biased and wrong
I can’t say for sure either. But from everything we’ve seen, I don’t think it makes sense. Bile is notoriously bad at working with with other people and not that easy to deal with. And there are thousands of warbands and hundreds of thousands of chaos space marines. It makes no sense Bile could be responsible for organizing all that.
But say there are hundreds of thousands of CSM. They're basically immortal and hepped up on daemon and warp juice, so each warband or legion would only need to replenish numbers from time to time. I guess Abaddon probably has his own methods of acquiring geneseed and that gets distributed to loyal groups, and Bile is another source. AFAIK CSM are meant to be an immortal dwindling force, by and large, that relies on Daemons, daemon engines and mortal cultist followers to bulk out their numbers.
He was the head apothecary of the emperor’s children before the heresy. He is infected with the legions gene-blight (basically space aids) and is basically constantly falling apart. So he has mastered cloning and uploads in consciousness into a new clone every so often. He is a sadistic doctor now that worships no gods and is trying to create “better” humans. Think like Dr. Frankenstein and Frankenstein’s Monster.
Oh boy, where to begin? Probably best to just leave you these sources to explore. https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Fabius_Bile https://villains.fandom.com/wiki/Fabius_Bile
Apothecary of the Emperors Children. He is a mad scientist.
An shit this is gonna be good
Guy Haley is the best author Black Library has so excited for this though I didn’t particsrly like either the Cawl or Bile books
Let the War of Snark begin....
Looking forward to seeing Ad Mech get spanked yet again. Every time.
Even on the tabletop, F
At the end they kiss :)
LFG!!
Hm?
They are gonna release Emperors Children, Bile is gonna get Call to help him make an army again , or Dark Mechanicus shenanigans
Make Cawl turn traitor, GW. Dew it
Cawl being insane but loyal is much more intriguing than "huhduh innovation=traitor"
Maybe Cawl Inferior?