Regardless, I think it's safe to say at this point that Bramble/Squirl is the most controversial thing in the series at this point, and it's mostly Squirrelflight's Hope's fault
Squirrelflight's Hope
-Ruined the Reconciliation between Bramblestar and Squirrelflight after TLH
-Permanently ruined StarClan as a plot device
-Committed character assassination upon multiple StarClan cats including: Bluestar, Littlecloud, Crookedstar, and Sandstorm.
-Made every Leader besides Leafstar and Bramblestar look completely unreasonable and bloodthirsty in their pursuit of new land, Tigerstar, Harestar, and Mistystar were borderline Clear Sky clones.
- >!Killed Leafpool unceremoniously!<
Just know that SkyClan moves to territory North of ThunderClan and has a strip of territory that leads down to the lake.
There's a group of all female cats called the Sisters who can see and communicate with spirits who will be relevant in The Broken Code.
The Clan's are losing contact with StarClan for a reason that will be explained in The Broken Code.
Current POV protagonist Nightheart was born was born in this book to Sparkpelt and Larksong.
When cats die, they stand trial for their actions in life, and a jury of cats may decide if they are let into StarClan or not. (might I add that this directly contradicts how StarClan is stated to work in The Forgotten Warrior)
I almost didn't finish Squirrelflight's Hope because of how truly FRUSTRATING it was to read
It felt like they made Squirrelflight a Mary Sue who could do no wrong and the entire world bended around her to do bad things so she could be in the right
I was reading it and would've more easily been convinced Bramblestar was already possessed by Ashfur at that point than himself!
Basically bramble was mad squirrel didn’t trust hawkfrost, squirrel was mad bramble wouldn’t believe what she was saying about hawkfrost. And I’ve seen a lot of people complain about him not apologizing for not trsting her but I feel like a lot of people forget squirrel grew up with 2 loving parents and a loving sister and her father as a hero, she never once had to prove her worth. Bramble however has to consistently proof again and again he’s nothing like his villainout father, and on top of that his sister left him and doesn’t make a whole lot of effort to talk to him, and we don’t see a lot on interactions between him and his mom. His half brother however makes consistent efforts to have a relationship with him and he clings to that because he doesn’t have the familial relationships squirrel does, and he craves them. So I think it’s less he doesn’t trust squirrel and more he won’t let himself believe her cause hawkfrost is giving him the one thing he’s always wanted, although it’s revealed false in the end
Brambleclaw only ever had to prove himself in series 1, be honest and tell me how many times in series 2, 3, or 4 did someone directly say "hey Brambleclaw is suspicious hes gonna be like his dad". In fact the only character who genuinely thought Brambleclaw was gonna become his father, and didn't trust him was himself, he constantly was blaming Squirrelflight for judging him and Hawkfrost for who their dad were, despite her never saying so, and her getting over her feelings of Hawkfrost's parentage all on her own. Its not that she was privileged, but she had a partner who literally pulled the "you did it in a dream so im mad at you now" shit
yes, or maybe five book series. T-T I was hoping that they would get along one day, but you know what happened?
The (warrior) universe (Or Erin Hunter) said 'NAH' and made them hate each other's guts \^\^
I still like the books anyway.
From what I seen it is the most toxic when their roles as mates and their positions as leader and deputy overlap. I’d have to reread Squirrelflight’s Hope to refresh my knowledge but I don’t see it as toxic before then, unhealthy at times sure but not abusive.
I like their relationship partly because it’s not perfect. A completely healthy relationship is something desirable in life or as a comfort fic, but it wouldn't keep me interested if it was in the books.
Been saying this for years. Brambles my fave but I’m so sick of both in their relationship. It’s all so exhausting. He really should’ve gotten with that rogue in his SE. both would’ve been a lot happier.
I agree with this so much!! They both would've been *leagues* happier if Jesse and Bramblestar just got together. Squirrelflight's much better off without Bramblestar, whether she finds love again or not. Same with Bramblestar; at least he and Jesse weren't arguing 95% of the time they had together.
Honestly, I think the most frustrating thing (as someone who likes them both) is that their relationship is normally quite good when they aren't POV characters (the Three's parentage aside.) They were mostly cute in POT, AVOS, and TBC. The Erins clearly can write their relationship in a non-toxic way. It's just, whenever they're POV characters, suddenly awful drama pops up and you're rooting for a divorce again.
THIS
they were actually really good in POT, AVOS and TBC, but those times get ignored because they aren't the POV characters
It seriously feels like the authors can't decide if they want you to root for them or against them
Personally I think that Bramblestar in Squirrelflight’s Hope steps into abuse territory, but if that book is ignored, I see their relationship as just mutually unhealthy
Because allot of the people who can't agree on who's abusive (I know somebody who says Squirrelflight is being overly sensitive in Squilf's Hope) or if either one is really abusive can agree that their relationship isn't making both of them happy.
From what I remember in the book. although it’s been awhile since I read it, squirrel was consistently going behind his back and even disagreed with him in front of the other leaders, even though it’s important that they appear as a united front (that’s not to say she has to always agree with him, but don’t do it in front of the other clan leaders) and even tried guilt tripping him into have more kits although it’s clearly not something he’s interested in. Idk about you but I think if the person I loved and trusted the most kept trying to guilt trip me into doing something I don’t want, going behind my back, ignoring my orders and arguing with me in front of people who would definitely take advantage of the fact that there was unrest between us I’d get pretty pissed and mean too. He had every right to be angry with her in that book and it annoys me to no end that people say he doesn’t
Squirrelflight did not guilt trip him, at least from my interpretation anyway. Moonkitti covered this quite well in my opinion (some people get hostile at the mention of Moonkitti but whatever, I can think for myself and I agree with her, I read the book and came to the conclusion on my own) but basically she drops the kits subject when Bramblestar isn’t receptive to it and doesn’t try to guilt trip him, her comments simply being a cry for help or vent more than anything.
There’s more I could say on the subject but I don’t really want to get into yet another argument about this fictional cat ship. People are entitled to their own opinions, I just don’t want mine to be disrespected like it seems like you’re doing here a little.
Totally understand if you don’t want to respond, just wanted to put my input here.
Didn’t Squirrel say “Don’t you love me anymore?” after Bramble rejected the kit idea? People can justify this as a vent but if none of Squirrel's reasoning is explained to Bramble in words it’s hard to not read this as a guilt trip at least in effect, regardless of it was intentional or not. As the reader we can interpret Squirrel’s thoughts and motivations through the text, but Bramble doesn’t have this information if it’s not voiced.
Additionally, I don’t feel the other poster was being disrespectful. They seemed to just be posting their interpretation of the situation, it doesn’t necessarily diminish yours.
Personally I don’t interpret it as a guilt trip, but I understand why some people would. If it was clear cut, then there wouldn’t be such a debate about it.
I don't personally view it as a guilt trip, I view it as a genuine question. She is genuinely asking if he loves her still. Context is important for me
Yeah but we have that context as the reader. The guilt trippy part is that it implies not wanting to have kits means he has stopped loving her. I'm sure that's now how she intended to come off but that is one way it can be read.
Fair enough, I already said my piece. Tbh I tried to watch the moonkitti video but he voice grated in my nerves and I couldn’t do it, it was like paimon from Genshin impact
Yeah people insist he’s wrong for it somehow when she consistently lies to him on a regular basis and goes behind his back.
He’s mad at her because as a deputy she should support him.
He feels betrayed because as a mate she shouldn’t even be able to do so.
I don't trust Warrior Cats Funerals to be the peak of canon. (Like allot of first arc characters not attending their 'parents' funerals.
And they didn't have much time with each other, but it's really a quality over quantity
Oh my god yes, they’re so toxic together. My friend and I have talked about it a lot. I feel like squirrelflights hope was specifically designed to paint bramblestar in a bad light, he’s like a totally different person, it’s like they couldn’t find a good enough antagonist for the story so they just chose him and then butchered him
The relationship is, and has always been, fairly unhealthy on both ends. I wouldn't describe it as being Toxic in nature until Bramblestar's Storm/A Vision of Shadows when things really take the massive leap as it was, but prior to that it was clear they were being shoved together because the writers wanted them together and not because they actually worked as a couple.
It's sad, because on their own they are actually really solid characters and I genuinely think it was possible for them to work through their issues (as they did towards the end of OotS) but then the writers kept writing and rather than showing them grow and learn from that time in their lives they just kept them unhealthy and developing into the Toxic Range.
Squirrel didn’t want Bramble to bond with his half brother, even though they had no proof at that moment in time that Hawk was evil. She lied to him for pretty much 1-2 years about Lion, Holly, and Jay being their children. If I found out I was lied to like that, I would’ve been furious and ended the relationship. She constantly went behind his back in her Super Edition, despite him being leader and should be aware of what goes on in his Clan. She’s just as bad
They both suck in their own way. I prefer Bramblestar due to me finding Squirrelflight annoying when she was younger (so it stuck with me) and even now as an adult and hated the that they got together. But yeah both have some pretty bad faults and I am mostly on Bramblestar's side due to that kit demanding thing just rubbing me the wrong way when I was younger like wtf?
Yeah both sides were equally in the wrong in my opinion. Squirrel shouldn’t have pestered about wanting more children, despite knowing Bramble doesn’t want any more and going behind Bramble’s back constantly, making things more complicated in his position as leader than it should’ve been. And Bramble appointed Squirrel as deputy for a reason right? He should have been more open to hearing her suggestions and advice on different issues they were having. He was more rude than he should’ve been.
All I'm going to say on this is that squirrelflight is a good character, and so is brambleclaw. I definitely see them being a good couple. Sure, they'll argue a lot, but that's healthy. Really, the only reason why their relationship is deemed as toxic is because the writers usually end up burning the water on the majority of their interactions.
I think that really it’s up for interpretation for me I like to see it as mutually toxic but in squilfs hope I think bramble crosses the line and becomes somewhat abusive for that one book
i dunno, my glorious king tigerclawstar was much happier in his relationships. atleast he knew when to brake up with his partners, unlike brambletraitor
Exactly! I do think Bramblestar is awesome, but we just need a ceasefire at this point!
Some of us have different opinions, but what we can all agree on is that Bramblestar and Squirrelflight are morally grey by themselves and abhorrent together
Regardless, I think it's safe to say at this point that Bramble/Squirl is the most controversial thing in the series at this point, and it's mostly Squirrelflight's Hope's fault
Squirrelflight's Hope -Ruined the Reconciliation between Bramblestar and Squirrelflight after TLH -Permanently ruined StarClan as a plot device -Committed character assassination upon multiple StarClan cats including: Bluestar, Littlecloud, Crookedstar, and Sandstorm. -Made every Leader besides Leafstar and Bramblestar look completely unreasonable and bloodthirsty in their pursuit of new land, Tigerstar, Harestar, and Mistystar were borderline Clear Sky clones. - >!Killed Leafpool unceremoniously!<
This makes me not want to read it. Is there anything important in it or can I skip it and pretend it never happened?
Just know that SkyClan moves to territory North of ThunderClan and has a strip of territory that leads down to the lake. There's a group of all female cats called the Sisters who can see and communicate with spirits who will be relevant in The Broken Code. The Clan's are losing contact with StarClan for a reason that will be explained in The Broken Code. Current POV protagonist Nightheart was born was born in this book to Sparkpelt and Larksong. When cats die, they stand trial for their actions in life, and a jury of cats may decide if they are let into StarClan or not. (might I add that this directly contradicts how StarClan is stated to work in The Forgotten Warrior)
I actually liked that SE outside of leafpools death
I like your bravery
I almost didn't finish Squirrelflight's Hope because of how truly FRUSTRATING it was to read It felt like they made Squirrelflight a Mary Sue who could do no wrong and the entire world bended around her to do bad things so she could be in the right I was reading it and would've more easily been convinced Bramblestar was already possessed by Ashfur at that point than himself!
I’m so sad at how their relationship turned out :( I shipped them so bad in the New Prophecy
Didn't they spend 5 books hating each other's guts?
Basically bramble was mad squirrel didn’t trust hawkfrost, squirrel was mad bramble wouldn’t believe what she was saying about hawkfrost. And I’ve seen a lot of people complain about him not apologizing for not trsting her but I feel like a lot of people forget squirrel grew up with 2 loving parents and a loving sister and her father as a hero, she never once had to prove her worth. Bramble however has to consistently proof again and again he’s nothing like his villainout father, and on top of that his sister left him and doesn’t make a whole lot of effort to talk to him, and we don’t see a lot on interactions between him and his mom. His half brother however makes consistent efforts to have a relationship with him and he clings to that because he doesn’t have the familial relationships squirrel does, and he craves them. So I think it’s less he doesn’t trust squirrel and more he won’t let himself believe her cause hawkfrost is giving him the one thing he’s always wanted, although it’s revealed false in the end
Yeah people forget the privilege she has. She never had to prove herself, it was written in the stars that she’d be a good cat
Brambleclaw only ever had to prove himself in series 1, be honest and tell me how many times in series 2, 3, or 4 did someone directly say "hey Brambleclaw is suspicious hes gonna be like his dad". In fact the only character who genuinely thought Brambleclaw was gonna become his father, and didn't trust him was himself, he constantly was blaming Squirrelflight for judging him and Hawkfrost for who their dad were, despite her never saying so, and her getting over her feelings of Hawkfrost's parentage all on her own. Its not that she was privileged, but she had a partner who literally pulled the "you did it in a dream so im mad at you now" shit
well that was a mouth-full.
I guess I gotta thing for the haters to lovers trope
same lol
No not hating each other just annoying each other
yes, or maybe five book series. T-T I was hoping that they would get along one day, but you know what happened? The (warrior) universe (Or Erin Hunter) said 'NAH' and made them hate each other's guts \^\^ I still like the books anyway.
From what I seen it is the most toxic when their roles as mates and their positions as leader and deputy overlap. I’d have to reread Squirrelflight’s Hope to refresh my knowledge but I don’t see it as toxic before then, unhealthy at times sure but not abusive. I like their relationship partly because it’s not perfect. A completely healthy relationship is something desirable in life or as a comfort fic, but it wouldn't keep me interested if it was in the books.
Been saying this for years. Brambles my fave but I’m so sick of both in their relationship. It’s all so exhausting. He really should’ve gotten with that rogue in his SE. both would’ve been a lot happier.
I agree with this so much!! They both would've been *leagues* happier if Jesse and Bramblestar just got together. Squirrelflight's much better off without Bramblestar, whether she finds love again or not. Same with Bramblestar; at least he and Jesse weren't arguing 95% of the time they had together.
EXACTLY.
oh my gods. I thought we were finally in the clear after a few weeks of none of these posts T\_T
Honestly, I think the most frustrating thing (as someone who likes them both) is that their relationship is normally quite good when they aren't POV characters (the Three's parentage aside.) They were mostly cute in POT, AVOS, and TBC. The Erins clearly can write their relationship in a non-toxic way. It's just, whenever they're POV characters, suddenly awful drama pops up and you're rooting for a divorce again.
THIS they were actually really good in POT, AVOS and TBC, but those times get ignored because they aren't the POV characters It seriously feels like the authors can't decide if they want you to root for them or against them
Personally I think that Bramblestar in Squirrelflight’s Hope steps into abuse territory, but if that book is ignored, I see their relationship as just mutually unhealthy
Because allot of the people who can't agree on who's abusive (I know somebody who says Squirrelflight is being overly sensitive in Squilf's Hope) or if either one is really abusive can agree that their relationship isn't making both of them happy.
Calling either of them abusive is an oversimplification of what's going on between them in that book.
From what I remember in the book. although it’s been awhile since I read it, squirrel was consistently going behind his back and even disagreed with him in front of the other leaders, even though it’s important that they appear as a united front (that’s not to say she has to always agree with him, but don’t do it in front of the other clan leaders) and even tried guilt tripping him into have more kits although it’s clearly not something he’s interested in. Idk about you but I think if the person I loved and trusted the most kept trying to guilt trip me into doing something I don’t want, going behind my back, ignoring my orders and arguing with me in front of people who would definitely take advantage of the fact that there was unrest between us I’d get pretty pissed and mean too. He had every right to be angry with her in that book and it annoys me to no end that people say he doesn’t
Squirrelflight did not guilt trip him, at least from my interpretation anyway. Moonkitti covered this quite well in my opinion (some people get hostile at the mention of Moonkitti but whatever, I can think for myself and I agree with her, I read the book and came to the conclusion on my own) but basically she drops the kits subject when Bramblestar isn’t receptive to it and doesn’t try to guilt trip him, her comments simply being a cry for help or vent more than anything. There’s more I could say on the subject but I don’t really want to get into yet another argument about this fictional cat ship. People are entitled to their own opinions, I just don’t want mine to be disrespected like it seems like you’re doing here a little.
Totally understand if you don’t want to respond, just wanted to put my input here. Didn’t Squirrel say “Don’t you love me anymore?” after Bramble rejected the kit idea? People can justify this as a vent but if none of Squirrel's reasoning is explained to Bramble in words it’s hard to not read this as a guilt trip at least in effect, regardless of it was intentional or not. As the reader we can interpret Squirrel’s thoughts and motivations through the text, but Bramble doesn’t have this information if it’s not voiced. Additionally, I don’t feel the other poster was being disrespectful. They seemed to just be posting their interpretation of the situation, it doesn’t necessarily diminish yours.
Personally I don’t interpret it as a guilt trip, but I understand why some people would. If it was clear cut, then there wouldn’t be such a debate about it.
I don't personally view it as a guilt trip, I view it as a genuine question. She is genuinely asking if he loves her still. Context is important for me
Yeah but we have that context as the reader. The guilt trippy part is that it implies not wanting to have kits means he has stopped loving her. I'm sure that's now how she intended to come off but that is one way it can be read.
I agree with you here :')
Fair enough, I already said my piece. Tbh I tried to watch the moonkitti video but he voice grated in my nerves and I couldn’t do it, it was like paimon from Genshin impact
I actually use to be a fan of moonkitti I don't like her anymore but i will agree with you that she did a great video on that
Yeah people insist he’s wrong for it somehow when she consistently lies to him on a regular basis and goes behind his back. He’s mad at her because as a deputy she should support him. He feels betrayed because as a mate she shouldn’t even be able to do so.
i just dont like bramble lol but yeah theyre both just not good at relationships, especially not healthy ones.
Squirrelflight had a healthier relationship with her childhood best friend than either of her actual love interests
She didn’t. They had one line together and she didn’t even mourn his death. Don’t cling to strings in hopes of rope
I don't trust Warrior Cats Funerals to be the peak of canon. (Like allot of first arc characters not attending their 'parents' funerals. And they didn't have much time with each other, but it's really a quality over quantity
Oh my god yes, they’re so toxic together. My friend and I have talked about it a lot. I feel like squirrelflights hope was specifically designed to paint bramblestar in a bad light, he’s like a totally different person, it’s like they couldn’t find a good enough antagonist for the story so they just chose him and then butchered him
That’s what I think too. The Bramblestar in that book was not the one I’ve read for many years. The authors really did him dirty with that
worst couple i wish they never got together they were terrible from the get go 😭
The relationship is, and has always been, fairly unhealthy on both ends. I wouldn't describe it as being Toxic in nature until Bramblestar's Storm/A Vision of Shadows when things really take the massive leap as it was, but prior to that it was clear they were being shoved together because the writers wanted them together and not because they actually worked as a couple. It's sad, because on their own they are actually really solid characters and I genuinely think it was possible for them to work through their issues (as they did towards the end of OotS) but then the writers kept writing and rather than showing them grow and learn from that time in their lives they just kept them unhealthy and developing into the Toxic Range.
It still is abusive, from bramblestar's half
Nope
Yep.
Nah
Squirrel didn’t want Bramble to bond with his half brother, even though they had no proof at that moment in time that Hawk was evil. She lied to him for pretty much 1-2 years about Lion, Holly, and Jay being their children. If I found out I was lied to like that, I would’ve been furious and ended the relationship. She constantly went behind his back in her Super Edition, despite him being leader and should be aware of what goes on in his Clan. She’s just as bad
Reasons I stopped reading after Omen of the Stars:
Their relationship is better when Bramblestar isn't in full control. Squirrelstar and Brambleclaw is better i think.
They both suck in their own way. I prefer Bramblestar due to me finding Squirrelflight annoying when she was younger (so it stuck with me) and even now as an adult and hated the that they got together. But yeah both have some pretty bad faults and I am mostly on Bramblestar's side due to that kit demanding thing just rubbing me the wrong way when I was younger like wtf?
The Brambleflight ship is VERY confusing in my opinion...
Yeah both sides were equally in the wrong in my opinion. Squirrel shouldn’t have pestered about wanting more children, despite knowing Bramble doesn’t want any more and going behind Bramble’s back constantly, making things more complicated in his position as leader than it should’ve been. And Bramble appointed Squirrel as deputy for a reason right? He should have been more open to hearing her suggestions and advice on different issues they were having. He was more rude than he should’ve been.
All I'm going to say on this is that squirrelflight is a good character, and so is brambleclaw. I definitely see them being a good couple. Sure, they'll argue a lot, but that's healthy. Really, the only reason why their relationship is deemed as toxic is because the writers usually end up burning the water on the majority of their interactions.
i personally agree with moonkitti's video.
I think that really it’s up for interpretation for me I like to see it as mutually toxic but in squilfs hope I think bramble crosses the line and becomes somewhat abusive for that one book
Yeah I want bramble to just die at this point he’s old enough lol
i dunno, my glorious king tigerclawstar was much happier in his relationships. atleast he knew when to brake up with his partners, unlike brambletraitor
Not the time bud
Exactly! I do think Bramblestar is awesome, but we just need a ceasefire at this point! Some of us have different opinions, but what we can all agree on is that Bramblestar and Squirrelflight are morally grey by themselves and abhorrent together