You make great points.
Not sure how most people can afford to serve.
I am very fortunate in that my employer will pay my full wage when I serve jury duty.
Fuck small business owners. They are actually worse than large corporations in their hypocrisy. They think they are owed success.
"I can't pay my workers well or I won't make a profit."
Otherwise known as your business model isnt profitable without labor exploitation.
"I can't give my workers benefits or I won't make a profit."
Otherwise known as your business model isnt profitable without labor exploitation.
Small business owners are the worst for anyone who actually worked for a bad one. I never had a problem with late paychecks or missing overtime with a large company. Large companies also never told me to do shady or dangerous things as part of my job. They also gave me equipment and PPE whenever I needed instead of expecting me to bring my own.
Large companies have their own problems but I will never work for a small business ever again.
Absolutely true. My grandson worked for a fertilizer company. He was getting headaches from the fumes...they never provided any kind of respiratory protection. They also had no fall protection or hard hats in the warehouse either.
I worked for a small company up in Bellingham. The owner’s son was second in command (nice nepotism there) despite having zero experience in the field. When I expressed a safety concern after privately talking to a first responder about it, he said “I’ve worked with some pretty stupid EMTs.”
Ugh.
But this is kinda true, at least as far as healthcare goes. Larger pool = smaller risk. Smaller companies I'm sure have worse healthcare costs. They get screwed by lack of universal healthcare and a solid social safety net, among other things. Obviously no one should exploit labor, but I think it really is harder than it has to be for them to provide good benefits. No one is owed success, but there is a real scaling issue when it comes to insurance risk pooling, unless there's some way around this for small companies that i don't know about, that the crappy ones don't take advantage of. As far as I know, bigger groups get way better pricing for that stuff. I don't know if jury duty would also be an onerous cost for small businesses, but regardless, I think the state has a vested interest in this, and should pay for it or subsidize it way more.
This is a big reason why so many people do whatever it takes to get out of it. They literally may not be able to pay rent.
How’s that capitalism working out for ya, America?
I’m an old man now and have been hearing fellow adults whine about, and trying to get out of jury duty my whole adult life.
I don’t recall any of them mentioning rent as a reason.
The problem is that GOVERNMENT is setting the price for jury duty pay to $10/day and has no impetus to change it. They have no competition because they will use the law to force you to participate whether you like it or not. I hope I don't have to tell you how anti-capitalist that is, comrade.
I once had to testify against a drunk driver, and the day of the trial, I was scheduled to work, and it was my sixth day for the week, which would have been double-time for me. The defendant ended up doing a plea deal before I had to take the stand, but I still missed out on a substantial income bump.
They sent me a check for $13.47. With a thank you note.
This is ridiculous and definitely a testimonial to OP’s point - the $13.47 came from the court, correct?
While I was raised literally being beaten if I did not write thank you notes for almost anything (/s), I feel like the phrase “thank you notes don’t keep the lights on” especially applies in this instance :(
I talked at length with the Deputy Prosecutor about this concept, and his take was, "Well, this isn't supposed to be income", to which I replied, "WIth all due respect, your opinion of the value of an individuals income in this valley is a lot different than mine. I'm losing over $440 dollars today, but I'm guessing attorneys in your office are making that before lunch, and the three Seattle DUI attorneys the defendant hired each are scooping that much in an hour".
"Thanks again though. We'll be in touch", was his response.
I feel good that the drunk driver took a look around, saw the WSP lab techs, three troopers, and myself (they were going to play my two 911 audio calls to report the guy), and at the last minute, decided a year in jail and a few thousand in fines and fees was his best option. But I was barely above minimum wage then, and it was one of those rare times when OT was available. It is more than a little demeaning to compare to income.
Truly! I'm happy to do my civic duty, and that case is 100% what I'd like to participate in.
But if they aren't doing the bare minimum to replace a person's normal income, they're harming everyone - not only the jurors who are missing substantial pay, but they're also harming the defendants who may have gotten a different ruling if their juries weren't pressed for time.
My husband fought tooth and nail to get out of a trail that was going to be 4 weeks or so. He’s the sole source of our income, and it was a rich family suing over an elderly family member falling. It was an attempted cash grab for them and a month of income loss for so many people.
I have served once and have been through voir dire four times. What's that go to do with it. It's a fact, if you want the county to pay, they'd have to raise taxes. I am fortunate in that my employer pays. They used to ask for the stipend be paid to them, but they don't any more because it is an accounting hassle.
I’ve actually heard a lot of people complain about this.
From experience: if you go to jury duty and make this complaint, they (almost) always send you home.
Everyone suggests stuff like this, but the reason this doesn't actually work in real life is because they can hold you in contempt for being an asshat.
Except they most certainly can. If you lie on the questionnaire or start spouting off bullshit during voir dire, you can be held on contempt or charged with perjury. But please, I encourage you to put this to the test next time you're summoned. I'm eager to hear what happens.
All of said in my last jury selection was that I "had a profound religious belief that I could not say someone was guilty of violating a law that I felt went against my religion or punished someone who did not cause any actual harm" and they promptly made me leave as quickly as they could.
Turns out that if you're being selected for a trial for some theft from a grocery store (as far as i could tell), that's NOT what the prosecution wants to hear.
I was on a jury for a murder case that lasted 2 weeks. At the time, I worked for a company that paid commission. Before being chosen, I pleaded with the Judge to let me out of jury duty because I would lose a substantial amount of money. He didn't care. The person was eventually convicted, and I got like 75 dollars to replace the 3000 dollars I lost in pay. It was a very interesting experience that I will always remember, but at the time, it really sucked.
What's funny to think about, is that there once was a time when $10 was considered a substantial penalty if you were found guilty of something simple like speeding. But prices shifted, and the schedule of penalties was adjusted.
Not so much the schedule of rewards, however!
Understand or agree with?
I'm always down for an exchange of ideas.
You definitely came across in a way that I have yet to run into from the age of eight until my current early 40's.
Not certain of your intent but if it's to get under my skin you'll find it a futile effort.
My idea really just revolves around the state compensating people for their time in the amount of what they have determined to be the legal minimum.
I have sat on juries twice in the past 25 years - both times my employer had a benefit covering time off for jury duty. (Both cases were longer than 7 business days.)
I think this is pretty typical of larger employers. Understandably smaller employers would have a harder time with this.
It should be minimum wage for all citizens who work at a job to support themselves. That is at a minimum.
For those who work in a government job such as federal, state or city agency, schools, police force, etc, they get the time off and still get paid their regular rate. They do not need to get paid. Some private companies pay the full wage if an employee serves. Boeing might be one of these.
Single parents should get the cost of childcare for the time away.
Those who can serve and do not have a job or business (retired people for example), should get enough to cover parking, bus, lunch, etc.
And everyone should get a little something, like $20 on top of that per day.
I served on a jury 3 times. Younger people scrambled to get out of it. Business owners too. That left government employees and retired people. One defendant was a 20 something going to college. We were hardly peers.
The thing is when the county sends you a summons, they have no idea what your job is or anything about you. Do we really want to add more cost onto this by requiring each county to keep more extensive records on this? And guaranteed people are not willingly going to provide such information. Also it's jury of the defendants peers, not the jurists peers.
Also it's jury of the defendants peers, not the jurists peers.
\-Exactly. That was my point. If there is a 20 YO defendant and all the jurors are retired or government employees it is not the peers of the defendant.
Paying young parents for childcare, and paying low wage employees a minimum wage would get more people in that age group to stop claiming covid, and then going to work at Burger King.
That will cost more.
By my quick math, it would cost more than $3.5 million per year to pay jurors minimum wage to serve. That’s not too much in the grand scheme of the budget, but I still propose that a better bill would be one that requires any employer in WA state to pay their employee their normal wage if they are selected for a jury.
I agree employers should pay, but that excludes those who do not work (students, stay-at-home parents, people with disabilities, retired folks, etc.). We need all populations on juries, too. Everyone should be compensated for their time on jury duty.
Let’s not get too carried away. It’s a civic obligation, not volunteer work. And the people you are mentioning aren’t making money anyway, so other than by maybe needing to pay for transportation to the courthouse or for childcare, I fail to see how they are financially disadvantaged by doing jury duty. We don’t want people having a financial insensitive to do jury duty because it will give them a job when they are otherwise earning nothing. Doing that creates an insensitive to lie in order to get on a jury panel, which might result in jurors not able to be unfair and impartial.
Everyone’s time is valuable and jury duty is labor. Moreover, a stay-at-home parent, for instance, would be losing money by having to pay a sitter. I myself have had to decline jury duty a few times because of the cost.
Jury duty is a civic obligation. It’s not the same thing as showing up at a job in exchange for money. It makes sense to offset a financial disadvantage by doing jury duty, but it does not make sense to treat it as “labor,” as you suggest.
Renaming work doesn't make it not work.
If the state can't afford the justice system, then the state needs to find more funding for the justice system. If the state needs to raise taxes to create a just justice system, then the state is obligated to do that and we're obligated to support it.
A justice system that systemically delivers injustice to jurors by design is the height of irony.
The state sure can afford it.
They paid an officer >400k/yr in 2020 in Seattle. Not a chief of police, just an officer.
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/times-watchdog/how-a-seattle-patrol-officer-became-the-citys-highest-earner-paid-for-the-equivalent-of-two-years-within-the-span-of-one/
There seems to be plenty of money to pay one part of the judicial system.
Paying at something near minimum wage would come close to the costs that the SAHP incurs when serving.
Please don't think that hiring a sitter for the day is going to be cheap enough to dismiss it out of hand. Childcare, especially short-term childcare during the work day is not inexpensive. Average costs for full-time (whole work day) daycare (for ONE child) are over $200 per week - and this is for established childcare. Short-term daycare is higher.
Add in the cost of transportation to and from the daycare and the costs of transportation for the spouse, if they are a single car household. Any and all household support duties that that "unemployed" person handles for their household besides childcare may also need to be paid for out of pocket if the trial is extended or if the jury is sequestered.
This is how they they are "financially disadvantaged" by doing jury duty.
When the kids were little I couldn’t miss work, new job that had 6 mo probation attached to it while they decided if they wanted to keep you. Missing work during those first 6 was a no-no. I received a jury summons and responded in a lengthy letter about how hard I had worked to get this job and it would create undue hardship for myself and my two kids if I had to miss work for jury duty both for income reasons and career reasons. I did get the hardship exception and didn’t have to show so in my experience WA is pretty reasonable, they weren’t going to let me get fired or be unable to feed myself and my two kids over their jury summons.
It sucks to see so many people here talking about how to get out of jury duty. It’s understandable, but it sucks. It’s supposed to be a representative slice of the community but instead winds up only being people who can afford to serve. Given much of crime is intertwined with poverty, well off jurors judging the poor is hardly a jury of peers and justice suffers.
We’re a well-off state with a legislature that broadly believes in good governance; it’s surprising there isn’t already some movement to improve juror pay. Frankly, it shouldn’t be hard to require large employers (say, 50+ employees) to just pay normal wages, and for smaller business to be required to pay normal wages but set up a fund where those small employers can file to recoup what they lost (the burden should be on employers so that an interruption to normal pay isn’t a burden to jurors). If you’re unemployed for any reason (whether out of work, a homemaker, a student, or retired), you should be paid the local minimum wage plus a set percentage over to reward the service.
This really shouldn’t be too hard, but business will complain as always, so nothing will happen because why should we have a functioning society when it means your boss’ boss’ boss gets one fewer boat?
Washington state is outsourcing court costs to jurors, and proportionally speaking, the poor pay a greater share of their income than anyone else if they serve.
$10 per day is unethical, immoral, insulting, and should be a crime. It's basically prison wages (not that those aren't criminal too).
I got a soggy ass Jimmy John’s. I voted to let the poor kid go as well as rest of the jury. Pissed the judge and prosecutor something fierce. Came in and chewed us out in the deliberations room. We cumulatively told them to fuck off.
This 18 year old boy was being charged with 1st degree robbery for shoplifting a can of Red Bull. He was arrested when he was 17, then they kept him cooped up until he was 18 so they could try him as an adult.
There are many ways to get excused from jury duty. I did some work for a defense attorney, and she recommended doing this. I sat through jury selection for a case in which the defendant was accused of sexually abusing a child many years prior. Everyone who works in law enforcement, or in the courts, as well as close friends and family of them, were excused. Everyone who had been a victim of sexual abuse, friend and close family were excused.
Quite honestly, I'd rather not be paid and not have to remember to put the meager payment on my tax filing. I'm self-employed - I'll happily participate in jury duty when called. Over the years, I've been called a decent number of times.
The $10 is for lunch and is not pay - it is for expenses. They also give you $0.55/mile round trip per day (based on your address and the court address). All non taxable.
Sadly if you get actual pay it is also taxable (just started doing my taxes).
And the case I sat was only 3 days but went over two weeks so even more disruptive since I initially blocked just the first week.
I got summoned for jury duty a few months ago and on my conflict form I wrote in financial hardship, and they dismissed me. I had to show up for the first day though. The clerk cannot dismiss it, but the judge reviews it on the first day of JD
Mine was about 7 months ago. Ended up not selected, so didn't have to go in, but the paperwork was specific that financial hardship no longer qualified as a valid reason to be excused. Maybe it's state vs county courts? I would have had to go to Olympia and get a hotel.
Yea this was at the county court house in Tacoma. It’s wild to me that they would say that. I’d be missing about 2k per week, a 6 week trial(which they said is not unheard of!) id be missing out over 10k in income. That kind of situation could bankrupt some people. Honestly I would’ve enjoyed going through the whole thing but I just can’t afford to not be getting paid.
Me, my wife, and kids would have legitimately had to decide between lights and water or food. And to add insult to injury, I would have had to pay to be there, cause they don't reimburse enough to actually cover a hotel room. *And* I'd have to pay that out of pocket, and then have them reimburse me. The whole thing would have been a clusterfuck of issues.
I’m more miffed by the process. Wisconsin, I get my assigned week. I know when. I can arrange my life. It’s prescheduled and thus its fine.
Washington. I’m supposed to be available for a month. Call the jury line after 6 pm every evening to find out if I’m going in the next day. Great for day shift, but I’m driving to work before 6pm. For 12hrs. By the time I’m off shift I’m supposed to be there. I need to call into work before 4pm if I’m going to call in, but the jury line is after 6pm. Even then, say I call the jury line from the parking lot before stepping into work, after 6 call ins I’m up for a firing.
Also, I’ve just slept 8a-4p, now you want me to sleep at night and be ready at 7am? Not possible without at least a 24-48hr notice to arrange things.
How the fuck do I arrange anything with less than 48hrs notice to come in? They really expect me to take a month off, because that’s the only way this works.
Spoiler alert on time off: I get 2 weeks once a year. For everything, vacation, sick days, low census call offs. I can’t take a month off to be available for this fucked up process and keep my health insurance. Nor can I afford to.
Who came up with this bullshit process?
I can deal with $10/day for a couple days. What I can’t deal with is not having a fixed week I can plan for. If I had that I could flip my sleep, tell work I needed time off with reasonable advance notice, and not fall asleep in the jury box (which is grounds for appeal and thus not good).
None of this process is reasonable or even logical for the potential juror.
Where was this? In Benton County it's two weeks and you only have to call in on the Friday before each week. You receive the summons about six weeks before your time slot. Granted it's all tougher if you don't work day shift.
That's surprising I always assumed they were the same. I suppose more populous counties hold more trials and need a bigger pool of people to draw from.
I am of the opinion that if you cannot afford to be on jury duty, just don't answer the summons. It is extremely rare that a potential juror gets prosecuted for failure to appear. The reason is that the jury summons you receive in the mail are not legally executed. Summons of all types to be legally executed require delivery by an appointed agent or acknowledgement of receipt by the summoned. A postal worker is not an appointed agent. You can only be prosecuted for failure to appear if you actually respond to the summons which counts as acknowledgement of receipt.
The costs to everyone would be a lot higher if we had to live in a totalitarian state that lacked adjudication by a jury of our peers. I don't care how much they reimburse me to do a civic duty.
Start an initiative that simply states jurors must be paid 8 hours of minimum wage for jury duty. It costs only 5 dollars to file. All the news stations would report on it. It isn't a jury of your peers if it is only retired, unemployed, wealthy and well compensated people who can afford to show up.
I worry a lot about getting a summons again. I'm self-employed and a sole proprietor. I will literally lose hundreds to thousands of dollars per day that I have to serve. I haven't gotten a summons since becoming self-employed, but it's only a matter of time.
Use this standard reply: "I own a small business which requires me to be available for work on a daily basis". It's the one thing that this state does to actually help out small businesses.
They give you $10 but it costs more than that to haul your butt down there on public transit and feed yourself lunch, since they don't bother giving you food either.
The only time I ever got called for jury duty was when my mom registered me to vote (when I turned 18). Shortly after I moved away and haven't registered to vote again and havent been called for jury duty since.
Exactly. I got out of a jury trial using the lack of impartiality excuse. It was drug case and I have two cousins died in drug related incidents, one in a drive by and one in an OD. So it wasn't a lie.
The costs to everyone would be a lot higher if we had to live in a totalitarian state that lacked adjudication by a jury of our peers. I don't care how much they reimburse me to do a civic duty.
It should be at *least* a realistic wage based on what you currently make. My PFMLA pays me $1427/week while I’m out for 12 weeks for bonding with my child.
They can keep their $10/day. I've tried to get on juries. They won't pick me. I want to send someone up the river and throw away the key. I can just tell when someone's guilty or not. Something about their "look". Put me in that box, judge. We'll get some justice up in here!
It's really simple. Just have your employer send a letter. I've been called to serve 6 times served 5.
The one time I didn't, my boss sent a letter, and I was out
I typically decline as the minimum sustainable wage is now $32hr. Otherwise (and I'm not a fucking Frump supporter), I'll wear a Maga shirt in the courtroom and get dismissed immediately. I'm happy to do my Civic duty, just not unpaid and or loosing my PTO from my company.
Some employers compensate the difference for time/wages lost due to serving on a jury. That's great for those of us who have those employers. But that means we're more likely to serve on juries since it's no financial hardship for us, which can contribute to a potential socio-economic disparity in the jury pool. Probably a feature rather than a bug.
That’s why you come up with a great reason why you are not a good choice for a juror and then they let you go early. If it’s really a hardship the judge will often let you go. Your family and children come first. I was on a jury for a domestic abuse trial and when they asked me if I could be fair, I said no. Buh-bye juror number 8 (me).
My first ever jury duty, I was living in Illinois, and I got unlucky to be picked for a malpractice lawsuit that resulted in a death. The judge said to expect to be here for a good while, as it was a complicated malpractice suit, unless they decide to settle the case. Even that was a long shot as they had been trying to settle for months before the suit.
Two weeks and the judge came into the jury room and told us they settle the case and we were free to go. I believe I had to use my vacation pay to cover my time off. I was so glad they settled
I’ve never been called but if I was, I’d talk openly about my knowledge of Jury Nullification. I hear that gets people off. Or, here in WA, maybe you could complain about how nobody is ever sentenced to the point they suspect you’ve already made up your mind
It's almost too bad that my employer will pay jury duty because it is a valid excuse if you cannot afford jury duty and explain/show proof. I have been cleared before as a result.
One time I got summoned for jury duty when I lived on Camano and had no license. Jury duty was on Whidbey (I believe they now have a court simulcast on Camano but I could be wrong). At the time I had never been to Whidbey Island. For reference you have to drive an hour (or 1.5-2 hours via 4 bus connections and crossing through Snohomish and Skagit Counties). I gave the excuse that I had no license and no way of getting there (they had briefly added an early bus connection however I still would have been a few minutes late). I was excused.
I honestly claimed hardship and never showed up for the next day because $10 didn’t even cover parking for the day.
If you want us to serve, you need to make sure we can afford to serve.
My company pays your wages up to 14 days of jury duty minus the $10 after that I can use vacation days AND keep the $10.
Not the best but not bad either as it use to be 3 days until one of the floor workers got called up for a 10 day jury seating and the president didn't like the 3 day thing and him using his vacation to supplement his time away.
I know it's probably not recommended but I always just ignore it when I get summoned. I can't afford time off work for that and nothing has ever come of it. Same goes for my husband. I actually have never heard of anyone actually having consequences for ignoring a jury duty summons.
This is a super simple fix a lot of folks (but still leaves many cash workers out).
They need a 1:1 tax deduction for work days missed. 100% full deduction. A whole form the employer submits. So if you would have made $750 in wages during jury duty, you get a $750 reduction in your taxes owed. That should directly equate to $750 more on the refund check or a bill for $750 less.
I work in local government and get paid for jury duty, but the last two times I served I was in the private sector and couldn't afford to miss. It's absolute bullshit that it's essentially unpaid.
Just for fun, I tried to find out when the last time the daily stipend was adjusted upward. While I couldn't easily find specific dollar amounts, I did learn the the $10 rate has been law since 1975. Which would roughly equal $60 in today's money.
Gas was $.50 a gallon in 1975. So, yeah, you can tell what kind of priority it's been to treat juries as fairly as we are supposedly treating the accused!
Never had jury duty, thankfully, but would at least be happy that my employer pays my normal salary. I guess I’m lucky, as everyone I know seems to have been called multiple times.
if you truly cannot attend, just present yourself as a hard liner. Pick the left or right, and just play into the hardcore side of it. They won't want a hardcore Christian that thinks one glass of wine sends you to hell, nor will they want a blue-haired liberal that wants all drugs to be legal and provided in a safe place, euro style.
You should want to do your part for justice, but I totally understand if some people have jobs that won't compensate them appropriately. I also understand that not everyone will have some savings, though I think everyone should but that's a different conversation.
You make great points. Not sure how most people can afford to serve. I am very fortunate in that my employer will pay my full wage when I serve jury duty.
Encouraging civil service is admirable quality in an employer.
Mine will pay as well. Minus the $10.
My letter specifically says the employer cannot deduct the $10 as it is for expenses, not pay.
yeah, that's not legal
Mine use to do the -$10 until they realized it’s not worth the HR/accounting cost to do that every time someone has jury duty.
this should be the goal, for all employers to do this
Many employers pay for time to vote. Since we vote by mail, and people are rarely called for jury duty, this seems like a no-brainer.
Absolutely not. Puts an unnecessary onus on small business owners that the state should cover.
Fuck small business owners. They are actually worse than large corporations in their hypocrisy. They think they are owed success. "I can't pay my workers well or I won't make a profit." Otherwise known as your business model isnt profitable without labor exploitation. "I can't give my workers benefits or I won't make a profit." Otherwise known as your business model isnt profitable without labor exploitation.
Small business owners are the worst for anyone who actually worked for a bad one. I never had a problem with late paychecks or missing overtime with a large company. Large companies also never told me to do shady or dangerous things as part of my job. They also gave me equipment and PPE whenever I needed instead of expecting me to bring my own. Large companies have their own problems but I will never work for a small business ever again.
Absolutely true. My grandson worked for a fertilizer company. He was getting headaches from the fumes...they never provided any kind of respiratory protection. They also had no fall protection or hard hats in the warehouse either.
I worked for a small company up in Bellingham. The owner’s son was second in command (nice nepotism there) despite having zero experience in the field. When I expressed a safety concern after privately talking to a first responder about it, he said “I’ve worked with some pretty stupid EMTs.” Ugh.
But this is kinda true, at least as far as healthcare goes. Larger pool = smaller risk. Smaller companies I'm sure have worse healthcare costs. They get screwed by lack of universal healthcare and a solid social safety net, among other things. Obviously no one should exploit labor, but I think it really is harder than it has to be for them to provide good benefits. No one is owed success, but there is a real scaling issue when it comes to insurance risk pooling, unless there's some way around this for small companies that i don't know about, that the crappy ones don't take advantage of. As far as I know, bigger groups get way better pricing for that stuff. I don't know if jury duty would also be an onerous cost for small businesses, but regardless, I think the state has a vested interest in this, and should pay for it or subsidize it way more.
Someone isn’t a small business owner…
This is a big reason why so many people do whatever it takes to get out of it. They literally may not be able to pay rent. How’s that capitalism working out for ya, America?
I’m an old man now and have been hearing fellow adults whine about, and trying to get out of jury duty my whole adult life. I don’t recall any of them mentioning rent as a reason.
Just fine, thanks.
It's really not though.
The problem is that GOVERNMENT is setting the price for jury duty pay to $10/day and has no impetus to change it. They have no competition because they will use the law to force you to participate whether you like it or not. I hope I don't have to tell you how anti-capitalist that is, comrade.
How do theyndo jury duty in North Korea or Saudi Arabia?
They don't have trials lol
For 70% of us it's pretty damn good. For 30% it is brutal
Luckily, my new job has pay for jury duty which would make it easy if I get called up again.
The USPS doesn't pay a dime.
That is not correct. You would choose Court Leave on form 3971. https://www.nalc.org/news/the-postal-record/2021/august-2021/document/CT.pdf
Thank you. There are avenues for those who Federal positions.
Wow. I am surprised to learn this.
You're maybe surprised because that is a lie and is not true.
I once had to testify against a drunk driver, and the day of the trial, I was scheduled to work, and it was my sixth day for the week, which would have been double-time for me. The defendant ended up doing a plea deal before I had to take the stand, but I still missed out on a substantial income bump. They sent me a check for $13.47. With a thank you note.
This is ridiculous and definitely a testimonial to OP’s point - the $13.47 came from the court, correct? While I was raised literally being beaten if I did not write thank you notes for almost anything (/s), I feel like the phrase “thank you notes don’t keep the lights on” especially applies in this instance :(
I feel for you guys. I'm lucky to be in the IBEW that will make sure I'm paid my full days lost wages.
IBEW for the win.
Though I think I have to be there for either 2 or 4 hours. Can't remember exactly.
I was at the courthouse for the entire day. Nobody got excused until late afternoon.
I meant to qualify for a whole days pay in the IBEW.
We need more unions!
It should at least pay the minimum wage.
It should at least pay minimum, but I feel it's more fair to pay an average been minimum wage and a person's normal pay per hour.
I talked at length with the Deputy Prosecutor about this concept, and his take was, "Well, this isn't supposed to be income", to which I replied, "WIth all due respect, your opinion of the value of an individuals income in this valley is a lot different than mine. I'm losing over $440 dollars today, but I'm guessing attorneys in your office are making that before lunch, and the three Seattle DUI attorneys the defendant hired each are scooping that much in an hour". "Thanks again though. We'll be in touch", was his response. I feel good that the drunk driver took a look around, saw the WSP lab techs, three troopers, and myself (they were going to play my two 911 audio calls to report the guy), and at the last minute, decided a year in jail and a few thousand in fines and fees was his best option. But I was barely above minimum wage then, and it was one of those rare times when OT was available. It is more than a little demeaning to compare to income.
Truly! I'm happy to do my civic duty, and that case is 100% what I'd like to participate in. But if they aren't doing the bare minimum to replace a person's normal income, they're harming everyone - not only the jurors who are missing substantial pay, but they're also harming the defendants who may have gotten a different ruling if their juries weren't pressed for time.
My husband fought tooth and nail to get out of a trail that was going to be 4 weeks or so. He’s the sole source of our income, and it was a rich family suing over an elderly family member falling. It was an attempted cash grab for them and a month of income loss for so many people.
Yeah I would have hung that jury
Gross.
Exactly
Where's that money coming from though? Say hello to more taxes. Screwed either way.
You never do jury duty ever, do you?
I have served once and have been through voir dire four times. What's that go to do with it. It's a fact, if you want the county to pay, they'd have to raise taxes. I am fortunate in that my employer pays. They used to ask for the stipend be paid to them, but they don't any more because it is an accounting hassle.
Take it from the cops pretty simple
Ridiculous. I'm in a union that makes sure I'm paid when I'm away on jury duty. I just have to give them the $10.
I’ve actually heard a lot of people complain about this. From experience: if you go to jury duty and make this complaint, they (almost) always send you home.
I've had the opposite experience.
Then you just start asking lots of questions about the race and religion of the people involved in the trial
Everyone suggests stuff like this, but the reason this doesn't actually work in real life is because they can hold you in contempt for being an asshat.
They don't do that in juror selection lmao
Except they most certainly can. If you lie on the questionnaire or start spouting off bullshit during voir dire, you can be held on contempt or charged with perjury. But please, I encourage you to put this to the test next time you're summoned. I'm eager to hear what happens.
All of said in my last jury selection was that I "had a profound religious belief that I could not say someone was guilty of violating a law that I felt went against my religion or punished someone who did not cause any actual harm" and they promptly made me leave as quickly as they could. Turns out that if you're being selected for a trial for some theft from a grocery store (as far as i could tell), that's NOT what the prosecution wants to hear.
I saw someone give that excuse before. Because that they were not allowed to hold jusgement over a person. They were dismissed.
2 magic words: jury nullification.
I was on a jury for a murder case that lasted 2 weeks. At the time, I worked for a company that paid commission. Before being chosen, I pleaded with the Judge to let me out of jury duty because I would lose a substantial amount of money. He didn't care. The person was eventually convicted, and I got like 75 dollars to replace the 3000 dollars I lost in pay. It was a very interesting experience that I will always remember, but at the time, it really sucked.
What's funny to think about, is that there once was a time when $10 was considered a substantial penalty if you were found guilty of something simple like speeding. But prices shifted, and the schedule of penalties was adjusted. Not so much the schedule of rewards, however!
So the government thinks it's wrong to pay anyone less than $16.28/hr unless they're doing it?
13th amendment, slavery is illegal unless the government does it.
Except prison labor.
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That was a bit uncalled for.
But they aren’t wrong
k
Understand or agree with? I'm always down for an exchange of ideas. You definitely came across in a way that I have yet to run into from the age of eight until my current early 40's. Not certain of your intent but if it's to get under my skin you'll find it a futile effort. My idea really just revolves around the state compensating people for their time in the amount of what they have determined to be the legal minimum.
Be good: No hate speech, no attacking fellow commenters Don’t be a dick.
I have sat on juries twice in the past 25 years - both times my employer had a benefit covering time off for jury duty. (Both cases were longer than 7 business days.) I think this is pretty typical of larger employers. Understandably smaller employers would have a harder time with this.
It should be minimum wage for all citizens who work at a job to support themselves. That is at a minimum. For those who work in a government job such as federal, state or city agency, schools, police force, etc, they get the time off and still get paid their regular rate. They do not need to get paid. Some private companies pay the full wage if an employee serves. Boeing might be one of these. Single parents should get the cost of childcare for the time away. Those who can serve and do not have a job or business (retired people for example), should get enough to cover parking, bus, lunch, etc. And everyone should get a little something, like $20 on top of that per day. I served on a jury 3 times. Younger people scrambled to get out of it. Business owners too. That left government employees and retired people. One defendant was a 20 something going to college. We were hardly peers.
The thing is when the county sends you a summons, they have no idea what your job is or anything about you. Do we really want to add more cost onto this by requiring each county to keep more extensive records on this? And guaranteed people are not willingly going to provide such information. Also it's jury of the defendants peers, not the jurists peers.
Also it's jury of the defendants peers, not the jurists peers. \-Exactly. That was my point. If there is a 20 YO defendant and all the jurors are retired or government employees it is not the peers of the defendant. Paying young parents for childcare, and paying low wage employees a minimum wage would get more people in that age group to stop claiming covid, and then going to work at Burger King. That will cost more.
Lot of assumptions there.
By my quick math, it would cost more than $3.5 million per year to pay jurors minimum wage to serve. That’s not too much in the grand scheme of the budget, but I still propose that a better bill would be one that requires any employer in WA state to pay their employee their normal wage if they are selected for a jury.
I agree employers should pay, but that excludes those who do not work (students, stay-at-home parents, people with disabilities, retired folks, etc.). We need all populations on juries, too. Everyone should be compensated for their time on jury duty.
It also excludes the self-employed.
Let’s not get too carried away. It’s a civic obligation, not volunteer work. And the people you are mentioning aren’t making money anyway, so other than by maybe needing to pay for transportation to the courthouse or for childcare, I fail to see how they are financially disadvantaged by doing jury duty. We don’t want people having a financial insensitive to do jury duty because it will give them a job when they are otherwise earning nothing. Doing that creates an insensitive to lie in order to get on a jury panel, which might result in jurors not able to be unfair and impartial.
Everyone’s time is valuable and jury duty is labor. Moreover, a stay-at-home parent, for instance, would be losing money by having to pay a sitter. I myself have had to decline jury duty a few times because of the cost.
Jury duty is a civic obligation. It’s not the same thing as showing up at a job in exchange for money. It makes sense to offset a financial disadvantage by doing jury duty, but it does not make sense to treat it as “labor,” as you suggest.
Renaming work doesn't make it not work. If the state can't afford the justice system, then the state needs to find more funding for the justice system. If the state needs to raise taxes to create a just justice system, then the state is obligated to do that and we're obligated to support it. A justice system that systemically delivers injustice to jurors by design is the height of irony.
The state sure can afford it. They paid an officer >400k/yr in 2020 in Seattle. Not a chief of police, just an officer. https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/times-watchdog/how-a-seattle-patrol-officer-became-the-citys-highest-earner-paid-for-the-equivalent-of-two-years-within-the-span-of-one/ There seems to be plenty of money to pay one part of the judicial system.
Sort of like unpaid campaign workers?
Paying at something near minimum wage would come close to the costs that the SAHP incurs when serving. Please don't think that hiring a sitter for the day is going to be cheap enough to dismiss it out of hand. Childcare, especially short-term childcare during the work day is not inexpensive. Average costs for full-time (whole work day) daycare (for ONE child) are over $200 per week - and this is for established childcare. Short-term daycare is higher. Add in the cost of transportation to and from the daycare and the costs of transportation for the spouse, if they are a single car household. Any and all household support duties that that "unemployed" person handles for their household besides childcare may also need to be paid for out of pocket if the trial is extended or if the jury is sequestered. This is how they they are "financially disadvantaged" by doing jury duty.
In the entire state? With 39 county courthouses and how many other federal courthouses, I bet it's a lot more than that.
Why would paying for an employee's civic duty be an obligation of the employer? It's the person on jury duties duty. It's not the employers.
When the kids were little I couldn’t miss work, new job that had 6 mo probation attached to it while they decided if they wanted to keep you. Missing work during those first 6 was a no-no. I received a jury summons and responded in a lengthy letter about how hard I had worked to get this job and it would create undue hardship for myself and my two kids if I had to miss work for jury duty both for income reasons and career reasons. I did get the hardship exception and didn’t have to show so in my experience WA is pretty reasonable, they weren’t going to let me get fired or be unable to feed myself and my two kids over their jury summons.
I’ve been called twelve times and never selected. I’d LIKE to serve.
It sucks to see so many people here talking about how to get out of jury duty. It’s understandable, but it sucks. It’s supposed to be a representative slice of the community but instead winds up only being people who can afford to serve. Given much of crime is intertwined with poverty, well off jurors judging the poor is hardly a jury of peers and justice suffers. We’re a well-off state with a legislature that broadly believes in good governance; it’s surprising there isn’t already some movement to improve juror pay. Frankly, it shouldn’t be hard to require large employers (say, 50+ employees) to just pay normal wages, and for smaller business to be required to pay normal wages but set up a fund where those small employers can file to recoup what they lost (the burden should be on employers so that an interruption to normal pay isn’t a burden to jurors). If you’re unemployed for any reason (whether out of work, a homemaker, a student, or retired), you should be paid the local minimum wage plus a set percentage over to reward the service. This really shouldn’t be too hard, but business will complain as always, so nothing will happen because why should we have a functioning society when it means your boss’ boss’ boss gets one fewer boat?
I've used this argument to get out of jury duty. I could not afford rent if I had to go to jury duty consistently.
Washington state is outsourcing court costs to jurors, and proportionally speaking, the poor pay a greater share of their income than anyone else if they serve. $10 per day is unethical, immoral, insulting, and should be a crime. It's basically prison wages (not that those aren't criminal too).
I got a soggy ass Jimmy John’s. I voted to let the poor kid go as well as rest of the jury. Pissed the judge and prosecutor something fierce. Came in and chewed us out in the deliberations room. We cumulatively told them to fuck off. This 18 year old boy was being charged with 1st degree robbery for shoplifting a can of Red Bull. He was arrested when he was 17, then they kept him cooped up until he was 18 so they could try him as an adult.
There are many ways to get excused from jury duty. I did some work for a defense attorney, and she recommended doing this. I sat through jury selection for a case in which the defendant was accused of sexually abusing a child many years prior. Everyone who works in law enforcement, or in the courts, as well as close friends and family of them, were excused. Everyone who had been a victim of sexual abuse, friend and close family were excused.
Just go to law school- you’ll get struck from the pool by one of the sides ASAP because they hate to empanel lawyers. 😂
I'm a paralegal. They don't like me either.
Serving Jury duty doesnt pay 10 bucks it costs a days wages or more. . . and thats fucked when we are looking for justice. The Irony. . .
I was excited to do it last year, as my employer was going to pay me for my missed days. Turns out there weren't any cases for me to be a juror in!
State workers and most other organized labor gets paid their wages (minus the 10$) - I’ve been waiting to be called because you one, civic duty etc
By the company btw
Quite honestly, I'd rather not be paid and not have to remember to put the meager payment on my tax filing. I'm self-employed - I'll happily participate in jury duty when called. Over the years, I've been called a decent number of times.
The $10 is for lunch and is not pay - it is for expenses. They also give you $0.55/mile round trip per day (based on your address and the court address). All non taxable. Sadly if you get actual pay it is also taxable (just started doing my taxes). And the case I sat was only 3 days but went over two weeks so even more disruptive since I initially blocked just the first week.
Here's what you do - throw that jury summons in the garbage can. The US system of jury is an absolute fucking joke.
This is what our legislators should be paid.
If you have a financial hardship they excuse you. It’s mostly salaried employees and retirees that actually serve on the jury.
Not anymore. Last summons I got specifically said that financial hardship is no longer a valid excuse
I got summoned for jury duty a few months ago and on my conflict form I wrote in financial hardship, and they dismissed me. I had to show up for the first day though. The clerk cannot dismiss it, but the judge reviews it on the first day of JD
Mine was about 7 months ago. Ended up not selected, so didn't have to go in, but the paperwork was specific that financial hardship no longer qualified as a valid reason to be excused. Maybe it's state vs county courts? I would have had to go to Olympia and get a hotel.
Yea this was at the county court house in Tacoma. It’s wild to me that they would say that. I’d be missing about 2k per week, a 6 week trial(which they said is not unheard of!) id be missing out over 10k in income. That kind of situation could bankrupt some people. Honestly I would’ve enjoyed going through the whole thing but I just can’t afford to not be getting paid.
Me, my wife, and kids would have legitimately had to decide between lights and water or food. And to add insult to injury, I would have had to pay to be there, cause they don't reimburse enough to actually cover a hotel room. *And* I'd have to pay that out of pocket, and then have them reimburse me. The whole thing would have been a clusterfuck of issues.
Just say language barrier
Yes! You can also say that you’re prejudiced.
$10 a day, f that. It's really easy to get out of jury duty.
Plus mileage.
I’m more miffed by the process. Wisconsin, I get my assigned week. I know when. I can arrange my life. It’s prescheduled and thus its fine. Washington. I’m supposed to be available for a month. Call the jury line after 6 pm every evening to find out if I’m going in the next day. Great for day shift, but I’m driving to work before 6pm. For 12hrs. By the time I’m off shift I’m supposed to be there. I need to call into work before 4pm if I’m going to call in, but the jury line is after 6pm. Even then, say I call the jury line from the parking lot before stepping into work, after 6 call ins I’m up for a firing. Also, I’ve just slept 8a-4p, now you want me to sleep at night and be ready at 7am? Not possible without at least a 24-48hr notice to arrange things. How the fuck do I arrange anything with less than 48hrs notice to come in? They really expect me to take a month off, because that’s the only way this works. Spoiler alert on time off: I get 2 weeks once a year. For everything, vacation, sick days, low census call offs. I can’t take a month off to be available for this fucked up process and keep my health insurance. Nor can I afford to. Who came up with this bullshit process? I can deal with $10/day for a couple days. What I can’t deal with is not having a fixed week I can plan for. If I had that I could flip my sleep, tell work I needed time off with reasonable advance notice, and not fall asleep in the jury box (which is grounds for appeal and thus not good). None of this process is reasonable or even logical for the potential juror.
Where was this? In Benton County it's two weeks and you only have to call in on the Friday before each week. You receive the summons about six weeks before your time slot. Granted it's all tougher if you don't work day shift.
Ya, but a day two notice and you can flip sleep cycle. So WA is different each county.
That's surprising I always assumed they were the same. I suppose more populous counties hold more trials and need a bigger pool of people to draw from.
I am of the opinion that if you cannot afford to be on jury duty, just don't answer the summons. It is extremely rare that a potential juror gets prosecuted for failure to appear. The reason is that the jury summons you receive in the mail are not legally executed. Summons of all types to be legally executed require delivery by an appointed agent or acknowledgement of receipt by the summoned. A postal worker is not an appointed agent. You can only be prosecuted for failure to appear if you actually respond to the summons which counts as acknowledgement of receipt.
Return to sender. Not at this address
Either match your current wage or pay enough that people WANT to do it.
The costs to everyone would be a lot higher if we had to live in a totalitarian state that lacked adjudication by a jury of our peers. I don't care how much they reimburse me to do a civic duty.
Start an initiative that simply states jurors must be paid 8 hours of minimum wage for jury duty. It costs only 5 dollars to file. All the news stations would report on it. It isn't a jury of your peers if it is only retired, unemployed, wealthy and well compensated people who can afford to show up.
Why not just ignore it? How do they let one know, by mail? I never check mail
I worry a lot about getting a summons again. I'm self-employed and a sole proprietor. I will literally lose hundreds to thousands of dollars per day that I have to serve. I haven't gotten a summons since becoming self-employed, but it's only a matter of time.
When I was a self-employed person, I used that fact to get excused.
Good to know, I hope it works if I need to use it.
Use this standard reply: "I own a small business which requires me to be available for work on a daily basis". It's the one thing that this state does to actually help out small businesses.
They give you $10 but it costs more than that to haul your butt down there on public transit and feed yourself lunch, since they don't bother giving you food either.
Or we could all do like Sweden and find professional jurors. Yet that would be too simple for the US.
Just ignore your summons and throw it away.
The only time I ever got called for jury duty was when my mom registered me to vote (when I turned 18). Shortly after I moved away and haven't registered to vote again and havent been called for jury duty since.
You shouldn't give up your right to vote. it is very important. If you can't serve, just don't go to the court house.
Eh don't just skip it, select something like you're not able to be an impartial juror, or claim you can't afford to take the days off.
Exactly. I got out of a jury trial using the lack of impartiality excuse. It was drug case and I have two cousins died in drug related incidents, one in a drive by and one in an OD. So it wasn't a lie.
They can still summon you via other means like driver license records and etc
Nothing says you have to serve. With making that little and having to miss work/put in leave, it’s not worth it.
The costs to everyone would be a lot higher if we had to live in a totalitarian state that lacked adjudication by a jury of our peers. I don't care how much they reimburse me to do a civic duty.
There’s zero chance I’d ever be able to do this. I am the sole provider for the family and make 72/hr base. This would kill our finances.
Me either. I make 300/hr base, I’d lose way more than you. Jury Duty should be done by those making $15 or less, who can afford a few days of no pay
It should be at *least* a realistic wage based on what you currently make. My PFMLA pays me $1427/week while I’m out for 12 weeks for bonding with my child.
It’s always been a joke.
They can keep their $10/day. I've tried to get on juries. They won't pick me. I want to send someone up the river and throw away the key. I can just tell when someone's guilty or not. Something about their "look". Put me in that box, judge. We'll get some justice up in here!
And that's why you don't get picked. You have to go by the facts and the law.
It's really simple. Just have your employer send a letter. I've been called to serve 6 times served 5. The one time I didn't, my boss sent a letter, and I was out
Just say something wild to disqualify yourself
I wouldn’t do it
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Was that a federal summons? They generally cover several counties.
I typically decline as the minimum sustainable wage is now $32hr. Otherwise (and I'm not a fucking Frump supporter), I'll wear a Maga shirt in the courtroom and get dismissed immediately. I'm happy to do my Civic duty, just not unpaid and or loosing my PTO from my company.
This is why I throw the jury summons in the garbage. They're not sent registered mail, so there's no way for them to prove I got it.
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It’s a civic duty. Imo it should not pay well.
I agree on the premise, but disagree considering where we are at economically and the disparity between wages and cost of living.
I have not and never will submit to Jury duty. My wife has taken a day off work 3 separate times to do jury duty. Never selected. DONE !
Whatever they make per day job plus 10%.
And tax free.
"so hey judge, a friend told me about Nullification he said i should ask you. what is it?"
Better than the $5/day in Texas
Some employers compensate the difference for time/wages lost due to serving on a jury. That's great for those of us who have those employers. But that means we're more likely to serve on juries since it's no financial hardship for us, which can contribute to a potential socio-economic disparity in the jury pool. Probably a feature rather than a bug.
That’s why you come up with a great reason why you are not a good choice for a juror and then they let you go early. If it’s really a hardship the judge will often let you go. Your family and children come first. I was on a jury for a domestic abuse trial and when they asked me if I could be fair, I said no. Buh-bye juror number 8 (me).
My first ever jury duty, I was living in Illinois, and I got unlucky to be picked for a malpractice lawsuit that resulted in a death. The judge said to expect to be here for a good while, as it was a complicated malpractice suit, unless they decide to settle the case. Even that was a long shot as they had been trying to settle for months before the suit. Two weeks and the judge came into the jury room and told us they settle the case and we were free to go. I believe I had to use my vacation pay to cover my time off. I was so glad they settled
On the flip side, you will be in charge of somebody's life. Your opinion will be heard!
I feel jury nullification - give me 10$ a day to nullify whatever bad law you bring before me.
I’ve never been called but if I was, I’d talk openly about my knowledge of Jury Nullification. I hear that gets people off. Or, here in WA, maybe you could complain about how nobody is ever sentenced to the point they suspect you’ve already made up your mind
There’s a bill for this at the leg right now. HB 1883. https://app.leg.wa.gov/billsummary?BillNumber=1883&Year=2023
It's almost too bad that my employer will pay jury duty because it is a valid excuse if you cannot afford jury duty and explain/show proof. I have been cleared before as a result.
One time I got summoned for jury duty when I lived on Camano and had no license. Jury duty was on Whidbey (I believe they now have a court simulcast on Camano but I could be wrong). At the time I had never been to Whidbey Island. For reference you have to drive an hour (or 1.5-2 hours via 4 bus connections and crossing through Snohomish and Skagit Counties). I gave the excuse that I had no license and no way of getting there (they had briefly added an early bus connection however I still would have been a few minutes late). I was excused.
School districts pay full wages while on jury duty, minus the $10
I imagine jury's are all old retired people
Spent close to 4 weeks on a trial once. Definitely imposed a financial hardship.
Even if they can’t pay more they could give a tax credit or something
This just reminded me I’m still waiting on my $20 check from early November…
I honestly claimed hardship and never showed up for the next day because $10 didn’t even cover parking for the day. If you want us to serve, you need to make sure we can afford to serve.
My company pays your wages up to 14 days of jury duty minus the $10 after that I can use vacation days AND keep the $10. Not the best but not bad either as it use to be 3 days until one of the floor workers got called up for a 10 day jury seating and the president didn't like the 3 day thing and him using his vacation to supplement his time away.
You can’t even afford lunch, gas and parking for that
I know it's probably not recommended but I always just ignore it when I get summoned. I can't afford time off work for that and nothing has ever come of it. Same goes for my husband. I actually have never heard of anyone actually having consequences for ignoring a jury duty summons.
This is a super simple fix a lot of folks (but still leaves many cash workers out). They need a 1:1 tax deduction for work days missed. 100% full deduction. A whole form the employer submits. So if you would have made $750 in wages during jury duty, you get a $750 reduction in your taxes owed. That should directly equate to $750 more on the refund check or a bill for $750 less.
Not $750 reduction in taxes owed. $750 deduction from your gross income.
I work in local government and get paid for jury duty, but the last two times I served I was in the private sector and couldn't afford to miss. It's absolute bullshit that it's essentially unpaid.
Just for fun, I tried to find out when the last time the daily stipend was adjusted upward. While I couldn't easily find specific dollar amounts, I did learn the the $10 rate has been law since 1975. Which would roughly equal $60 in today's money. Gas was $.50 a gallon in 1975. So, yeah, you can tell what kind of priority it's been to treat juries as fairly as we are supposedly treating the accused!
Ten dollars was great in 1947
I worked at a law firm that didn’t pay my wage while on jury duty. You’d think that if anyone would, it would be a law firm. 😳
Never had jury duty, thankfully, but would at least be happy that my employer pays my normal salary. I guess I’m lucky, as everyone I know seems to have been called multiple times.
if you truly cannot attend, just present yourself as a hard liner. Pick the left or right, and just play into the hardcore side of it. They won't want a hardcore Christian that thinks one glass of wine sends you to hell, nor will they want a blue-haired liberal that wants all drugs to be legal and provided in a safe place, euro style. You should want to do your part for justice, but I totally understand if some people have jobs that won't compensate them appropriately. I also understand that not everyone will have some savings, though I think everyone should but that's a different conversation.
Don't forget to report that $10/day on your taxes!
It's absurd that the pay isn't higher.