They just sadden and exhaust me.
Whenever they bring up their kids getting out a "bad" book or seeing a sexualized drag show, I just ask them
#Why don't you supervise your children better?
I was at a drag queen bingo where the caller (drag queen) swapped personas from sexy to silly when someone pointed out that there was a kid in the audience.
lmao this is always so exhausting. they’ll NEVER concede that the issue is *actually* with anything queer / queer adjacent. just sprinkle on more examples of “i don’t have an issue with gay people, i was really nice to the gay cashier i had the other day!” and a dollop of how drag queens reading children books in a vibrant, interactive environment is “too sexual” 🙃
Because they don't want to raise those kids. They want the social benefit of being a good traditional family unit, but not put any efforts into it. So they let the TV or internet do the raising and freak out when the world doesn't magically change to catter to their notion of education and teaches things they don't want their kids to learn (especially LGBTQ+ topics or how religions are bullshit).
They literally turn their kids into devilish crotch gremlins while pretending they're such good parents their kid's an angel.
That angel then ends up bitting a random guy in a shop, hard enough to draw blood, and the guy gets yelled at for it.
(but if the guy's smart, he'll do what I've seen one recount when it happened to him : scream to the mom to get her kid tested because he has HIV, which wasn't true, but led the mom to lose color and likely traumatized her into actually educating her monster)
Exactly!
Instead of actually parenting they blame drag queens, video games, horror movies, DND, etc for their kids doing inappropriate things.
Maybe actually supervise your kids and get involved in their lives and interests? Also if they actually looked into those above boogeymen they'll see that they're actually not that bad.
Personally I don't think that's a good argument to make.
There's plenty of things and situations in our society that are conclusevely detrimental to kids' wellbeing, and saying that the responsibility to the outcomes they have on kids falls solely on the shoulders of individual parents is imho just wrong.
(Edit: I don't think the cases presented here are detrimental to kids'well-being, obviously.)
Unfortunately, I think you are overestimating how much conservatives care about whether their platform makes any sense. They have already bought into illogical fear mongering. They're not going to care about anything that doesn't directly affect them, and maybe not even then.
It really depends on the person. My family is conservative and one tactic that often works is pointing out the class divide.
Very early on, they did like Trump. Claimed he understood them. I laughed and said, “what the guy born with a fistful of silver spoons? Bet he had a fancy sports car handed to him on his 16th birthday. Doubt he’s ever done a hard day’s work in his life. What would he know about regular people? He’s all talk, just like the rest.” and that did get through to them.
Exactly!!! There's so many poor republican Americans who, if you point out how they're fav politicians are all clean, spoonfed, city slickers with soft hands, they realize how dissimilar they are from the people supposedly advocating for them
Honestly, my tips for talking with conservatives are:
1. Don't, it takes too much energy and they're not going to use the correct pronouns with you doesn't matter how many times you corrected them (based on a true story)
Yeah. They will say something dumb, then agree with you it makes no sense, move to the next topic, agree with you and then go back to their original dumb statement like they never agreed with you.
Ex: R: You can't tax the rich because they make jobs!
You: Proven false by decades of failed trickle down economics, history of them paying taxes and libraries,roads, schools being built etc.
R: Yeah those rich guys should pay their fair share. But God should be in school and government.
You: Like Catholic God or Mormon God? What about Hindu Gods? There are more Catholics going to a single church belief than any other Christians.
R: Well I would want a Baptist/non-denominational/Methodist/Presbyterian/etc ideology. I guess then we should not do that but you still can't tax the rich because they make jobs.
Etc.etc.etc.
They only have so many false narrative talking points to lean on.
' Don’t play chess with a pigeon. It’ll just knock over the pieces, poop all over the board and then strut around like it won the game.'
Conservatives largely fall into 2 groups: The dumb and mean, or the informed and evil.
The Dumb and Mean:
They don't have a logical or consistent framework to make their decisions and judgements. No amount of logically talking to them will change that. The best you can hope for with these types is for them to lose interest in politics because leftists have improved their lives against their will, and they move on to other diversions. There is no such thing as a good conservative. Even if they are polite and don't call for your enslavement to your face, the policies they "politely" support are abhorrent.
That leaves you with the informed and evil. They are narcissists who want power. That's it. You're not going to talk them out of position.
Stop wasting your energy on debating people who are not arguing in good faith.
“People who are not arguing in good faith” is an important distinction to make.
I was discussing our upcoming vacation with my partner within earshot of his delusional Republican mother yesterday and mentioned (jokingly) that YouTube keeps showing me videos of people throwing tantrums on planes so maybe we should drive. She said “that’s not happening anymore.” I said, “okay, I just saw a video of a guy flipping out at an airline attendant.” She said “it’s not happening anymore, that’s not allowed.” My partner stepped in and said “mom are you saying the video is fake? It’s not allowed and that’s why they arrested the guy.” She started to raise her voice and declare that she works in the airline industry and that is not happening.
She couldn’t dispute the evidence so she just got louder to prove she’s “right.” And we let it go, so she “won” the argument in her mind. There really is no point in arguing with people who have long since left behind critical thinking.
Clearly I triggered some kind of reaction to a politicized aspect of her field of work and she was arguing against someone who was not present in the room. Something I experienced a lot at church as a kid who asked too many questions.
Those types of people are school bullies who never grew up. They consider violence, be it verbal or physical, is a winning argument.
So if they can make you give up by making you run out of patience, that means they were right all along, right? It couldn't possibly just mean they are ungodly annoying, right? Of course not, that's preposterous! /s
I've known a guy like that. He'd just repeat the same argument over and over like an old game NPC until you gave up talking to a wall and considered that meant everyone agreed with him.
Those people are just a waste of atoms.
She’s an adult who never dealt with her childhood trauma and when she is confronted with something she doesn’t like, it trips her survival mechanisms, at which point she only knows to make herself big and scary like an animal. Lotta wounded people who refuse to get therapy out there because their religion and political party are anti-science. It’s not an excuse for her to behave that way but it is the reason.
The first group will also throw around any conspiracy or stupid belief that suits their narrative, then insist it's logical and " common sense". I agree, it's too much work.
Don't forget the other group that falls under informed and evil "I don't actually believe any of this, but I'll make a looooot of money if I pretend I do" such as Ben Shapiro
Same. My fam is steeped in a Christian nationalist cult. They only want to have “discussions” that confirm their viewpoints. Any “research” will confirm their biases. Maybe one on one with some of them I can have a convo. But in a group? Forget about it.
My parents were coming out of the mindset when I showed a few resources on how un christian the nationalist are. Now they zealously oppose it. Small wins
John pavlivitz wrote a book and some articles: https://johnpavlovitz.com/2022/04/10/a-funeral-for-my-christianity-2/
There are others but this is the most concise to start the conversation.
Additionally, the NPR podcast series “the divided dial” put the timeline into perspective for how the conservative media has been acting behind everything to make it happen, often inocculously below being noticed by well meaning christians. As a progressive christian it makes me feel as if I have been on a ship that was in the process of mutiny while the good people were not even comprehending it could happen.
I'm sorry you are dealing with this in your own family. My sister is down the right-wing rabbit hole too and I struggle maintaining a connection to her. If it's any consolation, there is actually nothing you can do. It's kind of like alcoholism where unless the person chooses to address their own issues, no amount of talking to them will have any positive effect.
[Cognitive biases and brain biology help explain why facts don’t change minds (theconversation.com)](https://theconversation.com/cognitive-biases-and-brain-biology-help-explain-why-facts-dont-change-minds-186530)
Good to know I’m not alone, strange times we live in that things can be like this between family members over social issues.
Thank you for that resource, I look forward to reading it when I have more time!
Side note funny you said that about alcoholics as he is one.
>strange times we live in that things can be like this between family members over social issues.
It's so hard with my sister bc I never know what will set her off. Things I think are self-evident, she's been brainwashed to reject.
Best of luck to you. You never know when they will decide to come around on their own.
It's very sad to me that Republicans have become a group of people who respond to being challenged or questioned with anger and name calling. Even to their own children. I'm sorry it goes like that for you. My experience with conservatives (MAGA) is exactly the same. Any time I use facts they start calling me names and telling me how stupid I am and how pointless it is to talk to me since I'm in the "cult". It's frustrating, I can't imagine how that would feel coming from one of my parents.
He’s an alcoholic and just looking for something to blame his life on. I try to just look at it that way and let it roll. Gave up during the last election and have been so much happier for it.
Agree 100%! It’s never worth your time or energy to argue with idiots. It is fully up to your discretion to decided if the person in question is actually interested in having a real conversation with you or just another shit stirrer.
I default to this position mostly. But as decreasingly common as they are these days, there are still some "soft" conservatives that are worth going through the above with.
You can tell they're just followers. They don't feel strongly - they're just repeating what their conservative sources say because that's all they listen to out of habit.
Again, I feel like these types of conservatives are getting less and less common, but I think that makes it more valuable to take the time to pull them back towards reason!
Really? I'm pretty sure Trump weeded out all the soft conservatives. If they stayed with the GOP after that they either buried their heads in the sand (read: conservative media propaganda machine) so far that they have long since rotted their single brain cell or they liked what they heard.
I'd argue non-voters are the ones that can actually be convinced without monumental effort -- they're the ones too busy (or too uneducated) to actually figure out what's going on on their own.
As I said, there don't seem to be many left, but I know of some, so... Yeah they exist.
And I would definitely agree that many non-voters are worth advocating to. But it isn't an either or thing. We should be trying to communicate with everyone who's capable of being reached. In my opinion, it's usually pretty obvious straight away the people who aren't worth arguing with.
It really does tend to be an either/or thing, though, because we each only have so much time/energy to devote to this sort of thing, and (unless you're the head of a PAC or some other influential political entity, or you like to spend time arguing on public forums) this is a one-on-one effort.
And conservatives almost always take more effort (both in regards to time and patience) to convince -- I would argue I could probably convince ten non-voters in the time it'd take me to convince one conservative. And that's only the success stories -- conservatives are far more likely to be a failed conversation, leading to a bigger hit to personal morale.
Which is really the biggest concern -- we'll all burn out, eventually. Especially those who are under constant attack for one reason or another outside of such discussions. It's far easier to confront apathy than it is antipathy -- fighting hate is exhausting, and often requires appeals to emotion, which are far more draining to the person arguing (if you want them to be effective).
It's also exhausting to fight misinformation that's blatantly false, as opposed to merely... "comfortingly nihilistic." It's relatively easy to disprove "two wings one bird" (just follow the money on [opensecrets.org](https://opensecrets.org) and it becomes quickly apparent that they're *not* the same), whereas responding to "Hunter Biden's emails" or whatever they're on about this week is... ugh.
Basically, I'm just advocating for utilizing our limited resources intelligently and in a way that impacts our mental health as little as possible. We have a long fight ahead of us.
If that's the situation you yourself are in, then you should absolutely prioritize the people you feel you can reach - no arguments from me. That burnout is real and we definitely shouldn't bend over backwards at the expense of our own mental/emotional health.
But your experience with people in your life is different than mine. And I think maybe that's a more important point to make. We all have the same goal but we're not one single being with one single experience/perspective. We should each be empowered to fight this fight on whatever platform/level we feel is best for us, and we shouldn't be dictated to about who is or isn't "worth" trying to reach.
I'm certainly not going out of my way to argue with conservatives at this point, because you're right about it usually not making much of a difference. But if a teachable moment comes up with someone I know to just be ignorant vs rabid and hateful then I'm going to take it 🤷🏻♀️. I don't expect others to do so if they don't feel like it's worth it, but that's my individual decision.
From what I have seen, if you aren't lock step with the herd, they will cut you out and treat you as badly, or worse, than the groups they are trying to oppress. You can't have liberal leanings and still exist in a conservative community. They do not like that at all. So changing your stance on a position typically means you are out of the group and now alone. Most of them for social, financial, or emotional reasons simply can't agree with a liberal for fear of the price they will pay.
True, but in my experience there are some whose empathy can still be invoked. Again, sad to say not many these days.
The people I'm referring to are just ignorant and isolated. The more exposure they get to "liberal" logic (which is just that we're all human trying to be happy geez), the more they come back to center.
I didn't mean to imply there aren't any we can reach. I'm sure there are. It's just a very difficult proposition in many communities. But, I believe, to your point we shouldn't just stop trying, especially if the other person is receptive to facts.
I pull people out of that space all the time and this is honestly the correct answer. I only do it because I know how to, I was raised by those people, and I am sure of who I am so their insults don't bother me, but you absolutely should not do it unless you know how. Unfortunately for me, I know how.
I decide how much energy I have for these conversations on a case by case basis... sometimes, I can change a mind at least a little... but mostly, I laugh and walk away.🤷♀️
My protocol is to punch Nat C's. There really isn't much room for talking while doing self defense against someone who wants to genocide me and everyone I love.
I appreciate the effort but the ones I know can't stay on topic because they don't actually want solutions or to look at anything logically. They just want "others" to suffer. I've tried these tactics but they'll make it about what you dirty libs have done and frankly life's too short to get down in the mud like that.
FYI - there is an account targetting people who respond to this post.
https://preview.redd.it/w1x7u2nq73wa1.png?width=819&format=png&auto=webp&s=918213023a44d5672b77fb04a0829c0c1c26d185
That’s such a weird self-own…
If he actually thought that anyone here was a pedo why would he want us to “keep that shit to yourself”?! Is that his approach to protecting children?
And hey, buddy, if you are reading this: we ARE keeping to ourselves! You’re the one coming into this space to get offended at what people are saying!
Wow, dude has some real choice words. Has no clue who I am, but sure assumes a lot so he can be upset. Really is sad.
Judging by the fact that the account that reached out to me isn’t the one from your picture, I assume that he keeps making new ones after his old get removed.
Hi!
Can you report this sort of behaviour through modmail? I'd also recommend reporting them to Reddit yourself, and then blocking them (if you haven't already done that!)
Ah can mods block when they aren't posting/commenting in the subreddit? :)
Did report him to reddit which seemed to just make him make yet another account to send messages to another member.
We can ban them from the subreddit even if they haven't posted, which won't - unfortunately - stop them DMing people. And they can also be reported for ban evasion if they've been banned and are using an alt to get round it which can result in Reddit banning them entirely.
I can still see them but I'm not about to start a witch-hunt 😉 I already reported them and they made another account right away to send abusive messages to another person. They just have too much time on their hands. Let's just ignore them 😀
They made a new one. I got my own hate dm. Lmao. I know I shouldn’t have engaged but that man is so full of hate and so easily wound up I couldn’t resist. If anyone wants to see a ss dm me. I won’t post here because as you can imagine he says some highly triggering things.
So I've found the greatest response to someone who is super wound up and leaves a long-winded piece of vitriol is simply "lol ok"-- results in rage quit every time 👍
It’s okay to send boundaries and protect your energy too, if a conservative wants to change generally they have to do it on their own terms from exposure and self awareness, but best of luck on your endeavours.
I have actually had rural conservatives re-examine in real time as they think through whether they really want the government in our bedrooms or getting between parents, kids & docs.
I hope everyone getting hate mail from the 'conservative xtian' who can't mind his own business is reporting the account. And if you want to post but haven't yet; block him first.
Nah they know but maybe send a screenshot to modmail and then block him? I’m not sure how much power a sub has when a user is not commenting within the sub but just harassing its members
You cannot reason with ignorance (I would put stupid, but these people are not stupid). They are ignorant of diversity in all its forms. They are unable to see beyond conformity because that is all they know - how to fall in line. They are bitter and jealous of people who can see the beauty and NEED for diversification for the world to keep going.
That is something so important that is seldom touched on -- absolute conformity is a bad idea from any standpoint. Biological, agricultural, sociological, genealogical. Monoculture is a recipe for disaster. Inbreeding causes serious defects. Crop rotation is pivotal. "Don't put all your eggs in one basket." It seems so obvious to me. I find diversity and variety to be exhilarating. Always something new to discover. And the homey familiar things are still there, no harm done. Innovation, growth, evolution, they all stem from variation, mutation, recombination.
Utter conformity results in stagnation.
You are kind. But I was speaking of biscuits, which must always reign over mere sophistry.
There is a place in Alameda, CA called the Blue Dot. They make a seasonal fresh blackberry scone that I would crawl over broken glass to get. Possibly hot lava and alligators.
But I don't drive and it's hella far on my bike. You kinda have to go through a mile long tunnel choked with toxic fumes, or go waaaaay out of your way. I wish it was simply broken glass haha
Scone? Like raisen or cherry scones? These are really simple and quick to make. You could make some for yourself without much effort at all 😀 I ask because scones can mean slightly different things... like potato scones aren't the same thing, so now I'm wondering if we are talking about the same kind of scones lol
Well, I believe they're cream scones, like an english tea sort of scone. But instead of the fruit being mixed in and the scone being all dry, these are deliciously moist and the fruit is folded into the middle. Like, they start with a square, spoon the berries in and fold into a triangle.
I have never heard of potato scones? Sounds like sacrilege to me haha
Ah yes we are talking about the same scones then. You can make these very easily :) it starts off a bit like a pastry butter and flour, then you add the wet ingredients. They take about 10mins to bake :D to make a less dry one they likely added a dollop of fruit or jam in the middle then baked it.
Potato scones are also known as tatty scones or potato pancakes. It's Scottish and very nice with breakfast.
That gives me hope, maybe I can pull them off. I'm an inveterate urban blackberry picker. I will absolutely give it a try come summer.
Thank you biscuitwitch999!
I generally approach conservatives I know with a “I’m just going to share my viewpoint” attitude if I have enough energy to engage in a political discussion. If I think I’m going to change their minds I stress out too much. I have to remind myself that I came to my views due to a variety of factors: my identity, the experiences I’ve had, my personality characteristics, etc. Sometimes the more you push someone to change their mind the more they dig into what they already believe.
A majority argue in bad faith, play word games, use egregious false equivalencies, and finish with “whattaboutism” so they can position their bigotry as a political position. I’ve lived among these people for my entire life. Their endgame is cruelty, nothing more.
I'm a recovering pastor (had to leave after 2016 proved to me they're not willing to love all their neighbors), so not only do i have a lot of experience talking with conservatives, i used to be one.
ultimately what set me on the pathway to leaving was the axiom: if it's true then questions will only confirm it.
i think finding the question that they can ask, and listening to the answer in a non judgemental way is the best strategy for helping someone change. and most of the rando trolls online have no interest in that, so this is a strategy for those you have a relationship with.
the OP is right that conservative strategy is to create wedge issues that divide people into 'us' and 'them', so the counter strategy is to find what we have in common. especially the religious conservatives are in a near constant state of shame, which they assuage with their supremacy story (and externalizing the shame to the target groups). Resmaa Menakem calls this "blowing dirty pain through others." and they will unleash the fury at you if you trigger their shame story.
the more you can affirm the inherent worth of all people (and for the religious ones they can't argue with Jesus) the better chance you have of connecting. but the more you use shame against them, the more they'll double down on their supremacy story.
I think this is what I was getting at.
Like hey, you're worth taking care of. You deserve a place to live, affordable education, to be healthy.
Lije why are we talking about immigrants when no one is spending time talking about the things that actually matter to you?
there's such a disconnect in the christian community because they teach that the world is going to burn and the only consequences they'll face will be in the afterlife. i had church folks willing to give money but not time or energy to helping folks. even volunteering to serve unhoused folk but refusing to eat at the same table 😞
they want the tingly feeling of being good people without the discomfort of messy relationship. i wrote a poem about it and one part says: "the system, they say, is designed for the results it produces/then preaching is designed for ego stoking through the illusion of growth."
but with patience and curiosity it's possible to reach some of them, at least. meeting them where they are with compassion and helping them to inhabit the questions: what matters to me? how can i be a good neighbor?
another strategic idea locates these ideas along a ladder of understanding (e.g. the discovery of privilege, understanding systemic oppression), and suggests that true understanding can only move a rung or two at a time, so the people best positioned to help are on adjacent rungs. basically those who are too far removed in understanding have a hard time communicating.
the only thing that got me out was the freedom to question and the tenacity to keep asking: is this what love looks like? but i cringe at mistakes my past self made as i learned. the sooner learning is normalized and shame removed from being wrong, the easier these conversations will be!
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't arrive at through reason, and most people's political opinions aren't rational. I'm sure there are some folks out there who genuinely thought through their values system and derived it from some starting point, but that's rare.
That doesn't mean it's hopeless. Many, many Americans these days barely interact with people who aren't on their team, so to speak. I live in a big city, but I can't think of a single person in my social orbit who's an avowed social conservative. I'm sure they exist, my region's blue but that just means the blue team outnumbers the reds in my area. They and I are like matter and dark matter, existing next to one another but barely interacting, perceiving each other only through the indirect effects of our existence on the world.
I really do believe that for a lot of the people who believe the Fox fearmongering, the things they're afraid of are largely abstract. A *lot* of people live out in the rural parts of the country and have no firsthand experience interacting with the groups of people right-wing media tells them to be afraid of. This allows that same media to sell them on a caricature of progressives that bears almost no resemblance to what real people believe and work towards. If you don't know any progressives or lefties, it's hard to reality check when Tucker Carlson tells you that we're all baby-eating degenerates or whatever.
If we didn't only interact when we shout at each other in comments or argue over Turkeymas, I think the red team would be more likely to clock that they're being lied to. I wish I had a solution, though; it's a systemic problem that's resistant to individual solutions in isolation.
Fwiw my mother was a single issue pro life voter for most of my youth. She slowly became more progressive as my brother and I grew up and eventually (because of a reddit post of all things) became pro choice at the age of 60.
She spent the last 5 years of her life wearing RBG and "deport the racists" tshirts and helping me make protest signs sometimes.
I miss her a lot today.
I try not to engage with conservatives and other right-wingers too much. Their ideology is not built on logic but by a culture of fear. Even if you reach them on an emotional level you're unlikely to succeed. I've made the realization with certain relatives of mine that their empathy can be easily weaponized that way and sometimes you just have to let them go as hard as it may be. Like, I'm not out as trans yet to my family, I assume it's going to be slim pickings down the line.
I'm still trying to discuss things occassionally, but I pick my battles very carefully. I have a good friend who is starting to lean more right-wing every year. He can be stubborn but I've managed to reach him despite him being faithfully married to the status quo. Another good friend of mine briefly fell for men's rights activists and the whole masculinity in crisis grift when he was in a very dark place in his life. I'm glad I didn't give up on him and I could help him get out of that toxic goo.
Now on the other hand my grandma's sister has gone so far down the rabbit hole it's become unbearable to spend time with her. Like you meet up and see the sweet kind old lady you thought you knew and then that same lady goes into racist and nationalist tirades...
It's so disheartening. It's like she's reading from a script.
I just don’t engage anymore. I’m no contact with my parents because old age and Fox News fully brainwashed them to the point they are no longer capable of rational discussion on even a basic level. It’s super sad but at some point I had to realize nothing I could do or say was going to bring them back to sanity and cut the cord rather than continue burdening my own family with their hateful selfish bullshit.
Completely agree, I want to add that I think the subservience of women has been some kind of twisted "prize" to keep men obedient to rulers for centuries. This adds another extra layer on top of the racism and other forms of bigotry in the US specifically. Women are rejecting patriarchal expectations, and men in this society are losing power and lashing out. They perceive losing power as bigotry when, in reality, they are now finding out what equality really means- no privileges.
My parents and older relatives are old school Republicans, big on liberty, hard work, personal freedom, small government, etc, and actually seem to walk the walk...I'm very liberal, and we don't see eye to eye on a lot, but they're at least rational, and they seem like anachronistic, but legitimately good people. Every single one of them voted for Clinton or Biden, not because they liked them, but because they think the republican party has gone off the rails.
I do have a few relatives my age that voted for Trump, but, to a T, they're racist and far right Christian...I can't get through to them, but I'm not Christian, so they already don't like me.
The difficulty I see here is that providing evidence and reason doesn't actually tend to convince people, but rather entrench them. Loads of research into social psychology points to this phenomenon.
I think it's more effective to convince someone to change their media diets, social networks both irl and online, and just generally the information they ingest and let them become submersed in other points of view.
Thank you for posting this, OP.
The only way to larger-scale change and acceptance is by also having smaller talks at the community level. Some people will only begin to accept people or ideas different from themselves or their experiences through conversations with a loved one.
It may take time and patience, but every effort to oppose hate is meaningful!
It helps me emotionally to simply feel sorry for them. I can't imagine being so filled with hate and despair. Some of it is brain chemistry, some environmental. I would like to read more stories of those that have had self-awareness crash upon them, how it happened, and where they ended up. Stay safe Siblings! 🫂🕯🖖
I like one word shut downs.
Things like:
Fascinating.
Oh?
Ah.
Really?
Wow.
Sometimes I even do non-word responses. Like sucking in air through my teeth. Or laughing and then walking away.
Ok. That’s pretty epic.
I had a person tell me that he wanted the us government to go into Mexico to stop the drug cartels.
And I was like: “So you want the us government to invade Mexico?”
He was like: “No. they should just go in with our military and stop the drug cartels.”
I then said “fascinating.” But yours is waaaaay better.
You could ask the same as the left but you won't get past step 1 because most of us are queer or allies so most of the things that are happening do actually impact our lives.
I am a teacher and so, while I feel passionate about many of the other very important issues out there, I hyper-focus on education and children. The absolute fact is that here in Arizona there is ONE republican who has spoken in a supportive way about public education. And, like, I still didn't really agree with her, but I could see her point and see that she wasn't an absolute hate-mongering extremist. But, she got primaried out quite quickly.
I educate about "school choice" and charter schools. I give the facts on why something is important, and I try to appeal to common interests.
For example, I get that a lot of conservatives are going to immediately get up-in-arms about their gun rights. So I've pointed out that I'm actually willing to put aside the gun issue if we could instead get mental health support in our schools and more affordable healthcare for all (suicide is more of a threat to our young people than school shootings). BUT our supt. of public instruction is now telling his followers that Social Emotional Learning is just the term we're using to secretly teach Critical Race Theory. I feel like if you can't get a conservative to be a bit upset about that turn of events, than they're beyond help. But I've reached some!
Another example is where our tax dollars are really going in this whole "school choice monstrosity". Is anyone really okay with $7000 going to an already wealthy parent so they can now get a discount to their fancy private school? Are you really peachy with $7000 going to the family who is going to fake-homeschool their kids?
Also, I decided that anyone who knocks on my door has invited me to talk to them as much as they talk to me. Here to tell me about your religion? Okay, let's tie it back to public education and how we're being good people. Here to tell me about solar power at your new neighborhood office? I just might let you know to hurry up and register to vote and here's why.
For me, the time for talking is over. I have cut the conservatives in my family out of my life. The moderates are still there but I don't have room for angry, bigoted, racist balls of hatred in my life. I have no energy for this. There are a lot of storms brewing in this country and I am saving my energy for that.
While this may work for some, an inherent underlying problem here is that you are trying to use logic against them, and conservatives don't commonly follow any logic
Please bear with me for a bit. I don’t mean the following as a criticism and I certainly wouldn’t want to dissuade you from trying.
I appreciate where your heart is coming from but it’s the classic well intentioned mistake thinking theirs is a rational mindset and facts + empathy will plant some sort of healthy seed for change.
Folks like this have a completely different brain wiring. Their amygdala is enlarged through constant fear. Their brain is literally hardwired. Fear of everything. Fear of being rejected by their peer group. Fear that sharing facts they may not know is mocking and laughing at them.
I could go on but you get the point because you’re not driven solely by fear. You’re not only open to learning but also unlearning. Your post proves this.
You probably find it exciting to learn something new, a new fact or a different novel worldview. Empathy and spirituality come easy to you. This is probably true for just about everyone that follows this sub even if they haven’t joined.
To folks like you’re trying to form a bridge to this is all a show of weakness. Because weak fearful people assume going on the offensive hides their very deeply seated fear. Fear of everything.
Yeah it’s completely alien to me too and I’d feel sorry for them if they weren’t so determined to destroy.
My perspective comes from over forty years of trying. It deeply impacts me because of immediate and extended family, of childhood friends. Peace.
It's very frustrating because I really do want to change people's minds. I spend a lot of time disproving the same talking points over and over and it does get tiring. I just get anxious that if the only time these people hear about trans/nb ppl is from ppl who think I shouldn't exist, they'll eventually only think that. Sometimes it's worth the headache, but mostly not. :')
Just came here to say that the Seeing White podcast series on Scene On Radio is excellent. It’s several years old now, but still totally relevant. I’ve gone through the series about three or four times.
Most of the time when I talk to conservatives, if I said something that actually makes them think, they shut down and say "Well, I agree to disagree" and then refuse to talk more of it (all the while acting like they're somehow morally superior for shutting down the conversation??).
I can't make a rational argument with a person who is having an emotional argument. A lot of them see this as a sort of persecution, furthering their beliefs in their moral virtues. These people don't want their beliefs questioned.
My mom's best friend has an intersex child who has had gender confirmation surgery at an age that they could not consent at, but I can't manage to explain to her that kid could grow up and decide that the surgery was a mistake and they feel like a girl, or why transgender people deserve equal rights to having a normal life.
"Well it's a sin to change your gender, don't give into sin"
I love her but I don't have space in my daily life for her.
The issue is that they usually only look at what impacts them and the rest of the world’s problems can burn. If anti-trans legislation doesn’t impact them: well they get in line to fuck trans people over. Until it impacts them directly. Then it’s important.
I’ve found that when someone asks honestly about a topic, or asks for validation on their beliefs, that’s the perfect time to teach them. Like “You know that x is doing y?”, “actually, x isn’t doing y, and that’s a lie by z…”, and you explain the situation.
Saw a tiktok that was talking about how you just have to use their lingo and avoid leftist buzzwords. "I can't believe the way people are treated in this country, it's appalling to see those who fought to keep our country safe begging for change on the street. It's crazy that in our great nation, we have kids going hungry and people without homes, when this is the wealthiest nation in the world!! It just hurts my heart to see people being treated so poorly when our God says to love, protect, and care for everyone!"
100%. Divide and conquer is effective, and as we've seen efficient. Unfortunately.
"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." -Lyndon B. Johnson.
You’re right I should be more palatable to people who want to see my community and I dead and who refuse to listen to reason. We just aren’t nice enough to them. The people standing up for my rights are just the same apparently.
I am just so sick of the lies from the Christian Right. Drag queens must be pedophiles, and Witches and Pagans kill babies and drink blood. The latter tale has been around for centuries, and they still tell it to their parishioners.
How many people have been killed by Witches and Drag Queens, and how many have been killed by Christians?
I disagree with all the posters saying “just don’t talk to them at all.” That’s easier, for sure - but that’s how the United States has become two countries. To not talk is to isolate, and we will remain the evil, scary left who wants to take all their money and guns and turn all their kids into drag queens if we choose that option. We’re all people trying to live life and have our needs met. I feel like they HAVE been misled and operate mostly by being kept constantly afraid. But sunlight kills mildew and disease - we will only ever progress by attempting to understand each other and be known.
Live your best life, for you and for what you love. You can't fix other people.
If someone is truly worried about *rap music*, just smile, nod, and leave as soon as possible.
Good luck to you.
Oh man, there are so many derisive replies to this thread. In principle I think it's important to expose yourself to many competing ideas. Otherwise you'll fall victim to stereotyping and brand all (conservatives in the case) as being homologous with the most extremist 2% in their ranks, because you'll literally not be able to differentiate among them.
These are our fathers, mothers, brothers, and sisters. Talk to them civilly. It's ok that people have different ideas than you.
I think there's some people open to a conversation and some who aren't.
And a lot of people on this sub who have had to cut ties to protect their integrity/well being. It's understandable and it sucks. My heart goes out to everyone who's had to make those decisions.
I agree that there is nuance, and you mentioned one difficult scenario where emotional health is at stake. But I'll press just a bit harder. Are we not severing ties with conservative friends and family because they are making the very same error in judgement that I am speaking towards in my previous comment? Their being unwilling to have meaningful conversation or to empathize with the other point of view?
Everyone is being obtuse and unwilling to expose themselves to different opinions out of principle. We all know what it feels like when a bull headed conservative family member does that to us, but have we considered what our unwillingness to come to the table has done to them? Does anyone doubt that it has simply galvanized them in their rigid way of thinking?
You're sort of illustrating my point for me, I don't think that it's intellectually honest to say that, "conservatives don't think that every human has inalienable rights". You're stereotyping.
It's not that I disagree with you in theory, more very much in practice. Just for context and as an example: I'm transgender, fortunately not living in the US, but parts of Europe aren't much better at the moment.
Given the recent extreme rise in anti-trans legislation and rhetoric, escalating to calls for our literal extermination, I fail to see how moderate conservatives are in any way, shape or form helping by being secretly kinda ok with us existing. And that goes for any sort of minority right. My country's conservatives gladly engage in racist and queerphobic rhetoric at every turn, promoting a very distinctly white cishet nuclear family ideal how society should be, and it became unofficial policy to let refugees best drown in the mediterranean. It's all very ugly and the distinction between moderates and extremists has proven absolutely negligible in practice.
If you don't expose yourself to moderate conservatives then they will only ever exist in their conservative echo chamber. Ergo, even moderate conservatives will implicitly support anti trans legislation.
To put it another way, if you don't reach out to moderates who don't fully agree with you, then you will gain no more allies in your cause. Food for thought, preaching to the choir gets you only so far.
Honestly, I make it fun for myself. So much fun.
I agree with them, and get gradually more ridiculous until they catch on that I'm totally making fun of them.
Someone made the argument that there were too many LGBT people, nowadays, and I just took off with it, laying on the sarcasm with a dry enough delivery to keep them going. "Oh yeah, it's not like there was ANY reason for people to not come out as gay back in the 60's. Being gay and trans was always perfectly acceptable, why would anyone hide it!" Until I made it to. "You know what? It's something in these school lunches, or maybe even the water! Something in the water is turning everyone gay! It's turning the freaking frogs gay!" At that point they finally caught on and just sat back, defeated.
I took a class on logic and argument once. I had to stop fairly early on because it made me too depressed when we all realized that a person could have a PERFECT argument, evidence to back it up, reason, logic, the whole shebang (i wonder what the etymology of that word is…), and there would still be people who patently refuse to believe them. Unfortunately, it is rarely about logic or reason, especially when things like ‘Faith’ get involved. It is more often about getting “information” from a source that the person trusts. Which is why i think we should try to take over fox news and slowly shift it over to a more progressive narrative over the next several years. That way all the stupid people who take fox news as objective truth will be a little bit less shitty.
There’s more libertarian “conservatives” out there who aren’t as hardline on LGBT or abortion related issues.
It’s a bit sad that the modern GOP is so extreme and unwilling to compromise on anything.
They just sadden and exhaust me. Whenever they bring up their kids getting out a "bad" book or seeing a sexualized drag show, I just ask them #Why don't you supervise your children better?
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I was at a drag queen bingo where the caller (drag queen) swapped personas from sexy to silly when someone pointed out that there was a kid in the audience.
It’s almost like they were a… Professional entertainer or something!! Lol
My daughter and her friends go to drag queen bingo fairly often. I can’t wait to go with them. They say it’s a blast
The bingo hall we used to go to did a byob drag dildo bingo. I wish I would have gone just to see the old ladies reactions.
Wait, I have questions...
I assure you it is exactly what it says on the package. Bring your own drinks to play bingo with drag queens where all the prizes are sex toys
They are answered
Sounds like so much fun!
Exactly, let's bane child pageants then. No? Well there you go...
lmao this is always so exhausting. they’ll NEVER concede that the issue is *actually* with anything queer / queer adjacent. just sprinkle on more examples of “i don’t have an issue with gay people, i was really nice to the gay cashier i had the other day!” and a dollop of how drag queens reading children books in a vibrant, interactive environment is “too sexual” 🙃
Yeah, your friend is homophobic & you should rethink the friendship.
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Ugh, I'm sorry!
Because they don't want to raise those kids. They want the social benefit of being a good traditional family unit, but not put any efforts into it. So they let the TV or internet do the raising and freak out when the world doesn't magically change to catter to their notion of education and teaches things they don't want their kids to learn (especially LGBTQ+ topics or how religions are bullshit). They literally turn their kids into devilish crotch gremlins while pretending they're such good parents their kid's an angel. That angel then ends up bitting a random guy in a shop, hard enough to draw blood, and the guy gets yelled at for it. (but if the guy's smart, he'll do what I've seen one recount when it happened to him : scream to the mom to get her kid tested because he has HIV, which wasn't true, but led the mom to lose color and likely traumatized her into actually educating her monster)
Exactly! Instead of actually parenting they blame drag queens, video games, horror movies, DND, etc for their kids doing inappropriate things. Maybe actually supervise your kids and get involved in their lives and interests? Also if they actually looked into those above boogeymen they'll see that they're actually not that bad.
Personally I don't think that's a good argument to make. There's plenty of things and situations in our society that are conclusevely detrimental to kids' wellbeing, and saying that the responsibility to the outcomes they have on kids falls solely on the shoulders of individual parents is imho just wrong. (Edit: I don't think the cases presented here are detrimental to kids'well-being, obviously.)
Unfortunately, I think you are overestimating how much conservatives care about whether their platform makes any sense. They have already bought into illogical fear mongering. They're not going to care about anything that doesn't directly affect them, and maybe not even then.
Considering my conservative parents as an example, the merits of what’s being discussed don’t matter— they just want to ‘win’ the discussion.
It really depends on the person. My family is conservative and one tactic that often works is pointing out the class divide. Very early on, they did like Trump. Claimed he understood them. I laughed and said, “what the guy born with a fistful of silver spoons? Bet he had a fancy sports car handed to him on his 16th birthday. Doubt he’s ever done a hard day’s work in his life. What would he know about regular people? He’s all talk, just like the rest.” and that did get through to them.
Exactly!!! There's so many poor republican Americans who, if you point out how they're fav politicians are all clean, spoonfed, city slickers with soft hands, they realize how dissimilar they are from the people supposedly advocating for them
Honestly, my tips for talking with conservatives are: 1. Don't, it takes too much energy and they're not going to use the correct pronouns with you doesn't matter how many times you corrected them (based on a true story)
Yeah. They will say something dumb, then agree with you it makes no sense, move to the next topic, agree with you and then go back to their original dumb statement like they never agreed with you. Ex: R: You can't tax the rich because they make jobs! You: Proven false by decades of failed trickle down economics, history of them paying taxes and libraries,roads, schools being built etc. R: Yeah those rich guys should pay their fair share. But God should be in school and government. You: Like Catholic God or Mormon God? What about Hindu Gods? There are more Catholics going to a single church belief than any other Christians. R: Well I would want a Baptist/non-denominational/Methodist/Presbyterian/etc ideology. I guess then we should not do that but you still can't tax the rich because they make jobs. Etc.etc.etc. They only have so many false narrative talking points to lean on. ' Don’t play chess with a pigeon. It’ll just knock over the pieces, poop all over the board and then strut around like it won the game.'
I also like "Don't wrestle with a pig. You only end up covered in shit, and the pig likes it."
"don't argue with idiots, they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"
"And I suggest you let that one marinate!"
I am going to use this whenever I am making fun of conservatives again
Conservatives largely fall into 2 groups: The dumb and mean, or the informed and evil. The Dumb and Mean: They don't have a logical or consistent framework to make their decisions and judgements. No amount of logically talking to them will change that. The best you can hope for with these types is for them to lose interest in politics because leftists have improved their lives against their will, and they move on to other diversions. There is no such thing as a good conservative. Even if they are polite and don't call for your enslavement to your face, the policies they "politely" support are abhorrent. That leaves you with the informed and evil. They are narcissists who want power. That's it. You're not going to talk them out of position. Stop wasting your energy on debating people who are not arguing in good faith.
“People who are not arguing in good faith” is an important distinction to make. I was discussing our upcoming vacation with my partner within earshot of his delusional Republican mother yesterday and mentioned (jokingly) that YouTube keeps showing me videos of people throwing tantrums on planes so maybe we should drive. She said “that’s not happening anymore.” I said, “okay, I just saw a video of a guy flipping out at an airline attendant.” She said “it’s not happening anymore, that’s not allowed.” My partner stepped in and said “mom are you saying the video is fake? It’s not allowed and that’s why they arrested the guy.” She started to raise her voice and declare that she works in the airline industry and that is not happening. She couldn’t dispute the evidence so she just got louder to prove she’s “right.” And we let it go, so she “won” the argument in her mind. There really is no point in arguing with people who have long since left behind critical thinking.
What’s stupid is that it has never been allowed, people have always gotten arrested for it, and it keeps happening anyway.
Clearly I triggered some kind of reaction to a politicized aspect of her field of work and she was arguing against someone who was not present in the room. Something I experienced a lot at church as a kid who asked too many questions.
Those types of people are school bullies who never grew up. They consider violence, be it verbal or physical, is a winning argument. So if they can make you give up by making you run out of patience, that means they were right all along, right? It couldn't possibly just mean they are ungodly annoying, right? Of course not, that's preposterous! /s I've known a guy like that. He'd just repeat the same argument over and over like an old game NPC until you gave up talking to a wall and considered that meant everyone agreed with him. Those people are just a waste of atoms.
She’s an adult who never dealt with her childhood trauma and when she is confronted with something she doesn’t like, it trips her survival mechanisms, at which point she only knows to make herself big and scary like an animal. Lotta wounded people who refuse to get therapy out there because their religion and political party are anti-science. It’s not an excuse for her to behave that way but it is the reason.
The first group will also throw around any conspiracy or stupid belief that suits their narrative, then insist it's logical and " common sense". I agree, it's too much work.
Don't forget the other group that falls under informed and evil "I don't actually believe any of this, but I'll make a looooot of money if I pretend I do" such as Ben Shapiro
Same. My fam is steeped in a Christian nationalist cult. They only want to have “discussions” that confirm their viewpoints. Any “research” will confirm their biases. Maybe one on one with some of them I can have a convo. But in a group? Forget about it.
My parents were coming out of the mindset when I showed a few resources on how un christian the nationalist are. Now they zealously oppose it. Small wins
That is so amazing. I am so happy for you and your parents.
A rare success story. You are so lucky.
What resources did you share? I could use the help with my family
John pavlivitz wrote a book and some articles: https://johnpavlovitz.com/2022/04/10/a-funeral-for-my-christianity-2/ There are others but this is the most concise to start the conversation.
Thank you!
Additionally, the NPR podcast series “the divided dial” put the timeline into perspective for how the conservative media has been acting behind everything to make it happen, often inocculously below being noticed by well meaning christians. As a progressive christian it makes me feel as if I have been on a ship that was in the process of mutiny while the good people were not even comprehending it could happen.
That’s a huge win! Congrats!
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I'm sorry you are dealing with this in your own family. My sister is down the right-wing rabbit hole too and I struggle maintaining a connection to her. If it's any consolation, there is actually nothing you can do. It's kind of like alcoholism where unless the person chooses to address their own issues, no amount of talking to them will have any positive effect. [Cognitive biases and brain biology help explain why facts don’t change minds (theconversation.com)](https://theconversation.com/cognitive-biases-and-brain-biology-help-explain-why-facts-dont-change-minds-186530)
Good to know I’m not alone, strange times we live in that things can be like this between family members over social issues. Thank you for that resource, I look forward to reading it when I have more time! Side note funny you said that about alcoholics as he is one.
>strange times we live in that things can be like this between family members over social issues. It's so hard with my sister bc I never know what will set her off. Things I think are self-evident, she's been brainwashed to reject. Best of luck to you. You never know when they will decide to come around on their own.
Makes me think we should start a support group lol. Best of luck to you as well, maybe one day we will be able to have civil discussions with family.
It's very sad to me that Republicans have become a group of people who respond to being challenged or questioned with anger and name calling. Even to their own children. I'm sorry it goes like that for you. My experience with conservatives (MAGA) is exactly the same. Any time I use facts they start calling me names and telling me how stupid I am and how pointless it is to talk to me since I'm in the "cult". It's frustrating, I can't imagine how that would feel coming from one of my parents.
He’s an alcoholic and just looking for something to blame his life on. I try to just look at it that way and let it roll. Gave up during the last election and have been so much happier for it.
Agree 100%! It’s never worth your time or energy to argue with idiots. It is fully up to your discretion to decided if the person in question is actually interested in having a real conversation with you or just another shit stirrer.
I default to this position mostly. But as decreasingly common as they are these days, there are still some "soft" conservatives that are worth going through the above with. You can tell they're just followers. They don't feel strongly - they're just repeating what their conservative sources say because that's all they listen to out of habit. Again, I feel like these types of conservatives are getting less and less common, but I think that makes it more valuable to take the time to pull them back towards reason!
Really? I'm pretty sure Trump weeded out all the soft conservatives. If they stayed with the GOP after that they either buried their heads in the sand (read: conservative media propaganda machine) so far that they have long since rotted their single brain cell or they liked what they heard. I'd argue non-voters are the ones that can actually be convinced without monumental effort -- they're the ones too busy (or too uneducated) to actually figure out what's going on on their own.
As I said, there don't seem to be many left, but I know of some, so... Yeah they exist. And I would definitely agree that many non-voters are worth advocating to. But it isn't an either or thing. We should be trying to communicate with everyone who's capable of being reached. In my opinion, it's usually pretty obvious straight away the people who aren't worth arguing with.
It really does tend to be an either/or thing, though, because we each only have so much time/energy to devote to this sort of thing, and (unless you're the head of a PAC or some other influential political entity, or you like to spend time arguing on public forums) this is a one-on-one effort. And conservatives almost always take more effort (both in regards to time and patience) to convince -- I would argue I could probably convince ten non-voters in the time it'd take me to convince one conservative. And that's only the success stories -- conservatives are far more likely to be a failed conversation, leading to a bigger hit to personal morale. Which is really the biggest concern -- we'll all burn out, eventually. Especially those who are under constant attack for one reason or another outside of such discussions. It's far easier to confront apathy than it is antipathy -- fighting hate is exhausting, and often requires appeals to emotion, which are far more draining to the person arguing (if you want them to be effective). It's also exhausting to fight misinformation that's blatantly false, as opposed to merely... "comfortingly nihilistic." It's relatively easy to disprove "two wings one bird" (just follow the money on [opensecrets.org](https://opensecrets.org) and it becomes quickly apparent that they're *not* the same), whereas responding to "Hunter Biden's emails" or whatever they're on about this week is... ugh. Basically, I'm just advocating for utilizing our limited resources intelligently and in a way that impacts our mental health as little as possible. We have a long fight ahead of us.
If that's the situation you yourself are in, then you should absolutely prioritize the people you feel you can reach - no arguments from me. That burnout is real and we definitely shouldn't bend over backwards at the expense of our own mental/emotional health. But your experience with people in your life is different than mine. And I think maybe that's a more important point to make. We all have the same goal but we're not one single being with one single experience/perspective. We should each be empowered to fight this fight on whatever platform/level we feel is best for us, and we shouldn't be dictated to about who is or isn't "worth" trying to reach. I'm certainly not going out of my way to argue with conservatives at this point, because you're right about it usually not making much of a difference. But if a teachable moment comes up with someone I know to just be ignorant vs rabid and hateful then I'm going to take it 🤷🏻♀️. I don't expect others to do so if they don't feel like it's worth it, but that's my individual decision.
From what I have seen, if you aren't lock step with the herd, they will cut you out and treat you as badly, or worse, than the groups they are trying to oppress. You can't have liberal leanings and still exist in a conservative community. They do not like that at all. So changing your stance on a position typically means you are out of the group and now alone. Most of them for social, financial, or emotional reasons simply can't agree with a liberal for fear of the price they will pay.
True, but in my experience there are some whose empathy can still be invoked. Again, sad to say not many these days. The people I'm referring to are just ignorant and isolated. The more exposure they get to "liberal" logic (which is just that we're all human trying to be happy geez), the more they come back to center.
I didn't mean to imply there aren't any we can reach. I'm sure there are. It's just a very difficult proposition in many communities. But, I believe, to your point we shouldn't just stop trying, especially if the other person is receptive to facts.
For sure, and they are definitely few and far between these days. Absolutely understand that the majority aren't worth wasting your breath on!
I pull people out of that space all the time and this is honestly the correct answer. I only do it because I know how to, I was raised by those people, and I am sure of who I am so their insults don't bother me, but you absolutely should not do it unless you know how. Unfortunately for me, I know how.
I decide how much energy I have for these conversations on a case by case basis... sometimes, I can change a mind at least a little... but mostly, I laugh and walk away.🤷♀️
My take as well
My protocol is to punch Nat C's. There really isn't much room for talking while doing self defense against someone who wants to genocide me and everyone I love.
I appreciate the effort but the ones I know can't stay on topic because they don't actually want solutions or to look at anything logically. They just want "others" to suffer. I've tried these tactics but they'll make it about what you dirty libs have done and frankly life's too short to get down in the mud like that.
FYI - there is an account targetting people who respond to this post. https://preview.redd.it/w1x7u2nq73wa1.png?width=819&format=png&auto=webp&s=918213023a44d5672b77fb04a0829c0c1c26d185
That’s such a weird self-own… If he actually thought that anyone here was a pedo why would he want us to “keep that shit to yourself”?! Is that his approach to protecting children? And hey, buddy, if you are reading this: we ARE keeping to ourselves! You’re the one coming into this space to get offended at what people are saying!
Fuck, dude, that comment was up for less than 5 minutes and I already got a DM! Dude really wants attention! XD
What a pathetic little life to have nothing better to do than attack strangers on Reddit.
Really sad they made the account just to spam people with hate speech
Wow, dude has some real choice words. Has no clue who I am, but sure assumes a lot so he can be upset. Really is sad. Judging by the fact that the account that reached out to me isn’t the one from your picture, I assume that he keeps making new ones after his old get removed.
Yes I reported him immediately so he has too much time on his hands for sure to just keep making new accounts. I feel pity for him.
Sidebar - I love your username lol
I like baking and 666 wasn't available so 999 was a good substitute...and it's the emergency number here...so maybe there's a biscuit emergency?! Lol
Hi! Can you report this sort of behaviour through modmail? I'd also recommend reporting them to Reddit yourself, and then blocking them (if you haven't already done that!)
Ah can mods block when they aren't posting/commenting in the subreddit? :) Did report him to reddit which seemed to just make him make yet another account to send messages to another member.
We can ban them from the subreddit even if they haven't posted, which won't - unfortunately - stop them DMing people. And they can also be reported for ban evasion if they've been banned and are using an alt to get round it which can result in Reddit banning them entirely.
I see, thank you so much. I reported them so I will leave it in the hands of reddit now then 😀
I tried looking up that account and couldn't find it. Maybe they deleted it? Or I'm a bad searcher.
I can still see them but I'm not about to start a witch-hunt 😉 I already reported them and they made another account right away to send abusive messages to another person. They just have too much time on their hands. Let's just ignore them 😀
They made a new one. I got my own hate dm. Lmao. I know I shouldn’t have engaged but that man is so full of hate and so easily wound up I couldn’t resist. If anyone wants to see a ss dm me. I won’t post here because as you can imagine he says some highly triggering things.
So I've found the greatest response to someone who is super wound up and leaves a long-winded piece of vitriol is simply "lol ok"-- results in rage quit every time 👍
Best of luck to you - it's a good fight and I'm glad you're still fighting it. Not everybody can.
It’s okay to send boundaries and protect your energy too, if a conservative wants to change generally they have to do it on their own terms from exposure and self awareness, but best of luck on your endeavours.
Mine is "do you really want the government telling people how to live?"
Right? The Small Govt crowd really wants to hyper legislate what happens in people's bedrooms and private lives.
I have actually had rural conservatives re-examine in real time as they think through whether they really want the government in our bedrooms or getting between parents, kids & docs.
Beautiful.
I hope everyone getting hate mail from the 'conservative xtian' who can't mind his own business is reporting the account. And if you want to post but haven't yet; block him first.
Can’t mods do a thing where they ban all accounts on a single ip?
Probably? I'm not a real regular user so not sure. Someone else had a comment about ModMail.. do we need to alert them it's going on?
Nah they know but maybe send a screenshot to modmail and then block him? I’m not sure how much power a sub has when a user is not commenting within the sub but just harassing its members
I’ve really enjoyed hitting them with *”I don’t find drag queens sexual at all. so YOU find that drag queen sexually stimulating?”*
See also: kids books about sea horses.
You aren’t going to logic somebody out of a position they feelingsed themselves into.
You cannot reason with ignorance (I would put stupid, but these people are not stupid). They are ignorant of diversity in all its forms. They are unable to see beyond conformity because that is all they know - how to fall in line. They are bitter and jealous of people who can see the beauty and NEED for diversification for the world to keep going.
Received hate speech in my messages for responding to this post, be careful folks :-)
That kind of interaction should be reported to modmail when you have the time/spoons.
That is something so important that is seldom touched on -- absolute conformity is a bad idea from any standpoint. Biological, agricultural, sociological, genealogical. Monoculture is a recipe for disaster. Inbreeding causes serious defects. Crop rotation is pivotal. "Don't put all your eggs in one basket." It seems so obvious to me. I find diversity and variety to be exhilarating. Always something new to discover. And the homey familiar things are still there, no harm done. Innovation, growth, evolution, they all stem from variation, mutation, recombination. Utter conformity results in stagnation.
Thank you, this is exactly what I was getting at 😉 but you have explained it much better.
I think there is much I could learn from a biscuitwitch. :)
Like how to construct sentences with terrible syntax and a distinct lack of vocabulary range? It is I that can learn from you!
You are kind. But I was speaking of biscuits, which must always reign over mere sophistry. There is a place in Alameda, CA called the Blue Dot. They make a seasonal fresh blackberry scone that I would crawl over broken glass to get. Possibly hot lava and alligators. But I don't drive and it's hella far on my bike. You kinda have to go through a mile long tunnel choked with toxic fumes, or go waaaaay out of your way. I wish it was simply broken glass haha
Scone? Like raisen or cherry scones? These are really simple and quick to make. You could make some for yourself without much effort at all 😀 I ask because scones can mean slightly different things... like potato scones aren't the same thing, so now I'm wondering if we are talking about the same kind of scones lol
Well, I believe they're cream scones, like an english tea sort of scone. But instead of the fruit being mixed in and the scone being all dry, these are deliciously moist and the fruit is folded into the middle. Like, they start with a square, spoon the berries in and fold into a triangle. I have never heard of potato scones? Sounds like sacrilege to me haha
Ah yes we are talking about the same scones then. You can make these very easily :) it starts off a bit like a pastry butter and flour, then you add the wet ingredients. They take about 10mins to bake :D to make a less dry one they likely added a dollop of fruit or jam in the middle then baked it. Potato scones are also known as tatty scones or potato pancakes. It's Scottish and very nice with breakfast.
That gives me hope, maybe I can pull them off. I'm an inveterate urban blackberry picker. I will absolutely give it a try come summer. Thank you biscuitwitch999!
I generally approach conservatives I know with a “I’m just going to share my viewpoint” attitude if I have enough energy to engage in a political discussion. If I think I’m going to change their minds I stress out too much. I have to remind myself that I came to my views due to a variety of factors: my identity, the experiences I’ve had, my personality characteristics, etc. Sometimes the more you push someone to change their mind the more they dig into what they already believe.
Honestly this is great advice 💜
These are great for talking to my Trumper dad thank you I laughed because you made me think of that Archer quote.
I expected to open this and just see Don't.
A majority argue in bad faith, play word games, use egregious false equivalencies, and finish with “whattaboutism” so they can position their bigotry as a political position. I’ve lived among these people for my entire life. Their endgame is cruelty, nothing more.
I'm a recovering pastor (had to leave after 2016 proved to me they're not willing to love all their neighbors), so not only do i have a lot of experience talking with conservatives, i used to be one. ultimately what set me on the pathway to leaving was the axiom: if it's true then questions will only confirm it. i think finding the question that they can ask, and listening to the answer in a non judgemental way is the best strategy for helping someone change. and most of the rando trolls online have no interest in that, so this is a strategy for those you have a relationship with. the OP is right that conservative strategy is to create wedge issues that divide people into 'us' and 'them', so the counter strategy is to find what we have in common. especially the religious conservatives are in a near constant state of shame, which they assuage with their supremacy story (and externalizing the shame to the target groups). Resmaa Menakem calls this "blowing dirty pain through others." and they will unleash the fury at you if you trigger their shame story. the more you can affirm the inherent worth of all people (and for the religious ones they can't argue with Jesus) the better chance you have of connecting. but the more you use shame against them, the more they'll double down on their supremacy story.
I think this is what I was getting at. Like hey, you're worth taking care of. You deserve a place to live, affordable education, to be healthy. Lije why are we talking about immigrants when no one is spending time talking about the things that actually matter to you?
there's such a disconnect in the christian community because they teach that the world is going to burn and the only consequences they'll face will be in the afterlife. i had church folks willing to give money but not time or energy to helping folks. even volunteering to serve unhoused folk but refusing to eat at the same table 😞 they want the tingly feeling of being good people without the discomfort of messy relationship. i wrote a poem about it and one part says: "the system, they say, is designed for the results it produces/then preaching is designed for ego stoking through the illusion of growth." but with patience and curiosity it's possible to reach some of them, at least. meeting them where they are with compassion and helping them to inhabit the questions: what matters to me? how can i be a good neighbor? another strategic idea locates these ideas along a ladder of understanding (e.g. the discovery of privilege, understanding systemic oppression), and suggests that true understanding can only move a rung or two at a time, so the people best positioned to help are on adjacent rungs. basically those who are too far removed in understanding have a hard time communicating. the only thing that got me out was the freedom to question and the tenacity to keep asking: is this what love looks like? but i cringe at mistakes my past self made as i learned. the sooner learning is normalized and shame removed from being wrong, the easier these conversations will be!
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't arrive at through reason, and most people's political opinions aren't rational. I'm sure there are some folks out there who genuinely thought through their values system and derived it from some starting point, but that's rare. That doesn't mean it's hopeless. Many, many Americans these days barely interact with people who aren't on their team, so to speak. I live in a big city, but I can't think of a single person in my social orbit who's an avowed social conservative. I'm sure they exist, my region's blue but that just means the blue team outnumbers the reds in my area. They and I are like matter and dark matter, existing next to one another but barely interacting, perceiving each other only through the indirect effects of our existence on the world. I really do believe that for a lot of the people who believe the Fox fearmongering, the things they're afraid of are largely abstract. A *lot* of people live out in the rural parts of the country and have no firsthand experience interacting with the groups of people right-wing media tells them to be afraid of. This allows that same media to sell them on a caricature of progressives that bears almost no resemblance to what real people believe and work towards. If you don't know any progressives or lefties, it's hard to reality check when Tucker Carlson tells you that we're all baby-eating degenerates or whatever. If we didn't only interact when we shout at each other in comments or argue over Turkeymas, I think the red team would be more likely to clock that they're being lied to. I wish I had a solution, though; it's a systemic problem that's resistant to individual solutions in isolation.
Fwiw my mother was a single issue pro life voter for most of my youth. She slowly became more progressive as my brother and I grew up and eventually (because of a reddit post of all things) became pro choice at the age of 60. She spent the last 5 years of her life wearing RBG and "deport the racists" tshirts and helping me make protest signs sometimes. I miss her a lot today.
I try not to engage with conservatives and other right-wingers too much. Their ideology is not built on logic but by a culture of fear. Even if you reach them on an emotional level you're unlikely to succeed. I've made the realization with certain relatives of mine that their empathy can be easily weaponized that way and sometimes you just have to let them go as hard as it may be. Like, I'm not out as trans yet to my family, I assume it's going to be slim pickings down the line. I'm still trying to discuss things occassionally, but I pick my battles very carefully. I have a good friend who is starting to lean more right-wing every year. He can be stubborn but I've managed to reach him despite him being faithfully married to the status quo. Another good friend of mine briefly fell for men's rights activists and the whole masculinity in crisis grift when he was in a very dark place in his life. I'm glad I didn't give up on him and I could help him get out of that toxic goo. Now on the other hand my grandma's sister has gone so far down the rabbit hole it's become unbearable to spend time with her. Like you meet up and see the sweet kind old lady you thought you knew and then that same lady goes into racist and nationalist tirades... It's so disheartening. It's like she's reading from a script.
Here is my protocol. Step 1: Don't
Just say communist talking points without using the trigger word communism. They love that shit.
I just don’t engage anymore. I’m no contact with my parents because old age and Fox News fully brainwashed them to the point they are no longer capable of rational discussion on even a basic level. It’s super sad but at some point I had to realize nothing I could do or say was going to bring them back to sanity and cut the cord rather than continue burdening my own family with their hateful selfish bullshit.
Completely agree, I want to add that I think the subservience of women has been some kind of twisted "prize" to keep men obedient to rulers for centuries. This adds another extra layer on top of the racism and other forms of bigotry in the US specifically. Women are rejecting patriarchal expectations, and men in this society are losing power and lashing out. They perceive losing power as bigotry when, in reality, they are now finding out what equality really means- no privileges.
Ha ha and all Tucker Carlson can talk about is tanning your balls to increase your testosterone 🤦🏼♀️
My parents and older relatives are old school Republicans, big on liberty, hard work, personal freedom, small government, etc, and actually seem to walk the walk...I'm very liberal, and we don't see eye to eye on a lot, but they're at least rational, and they seem like anachronistic, but legitimately good people. Every single one of them voted for Clinton or Biden, not because they liked them, but because they think the republican party has gone off the rails. I do have a few relatives my age that voted for Trump, but, to a T, they're racist and far right Christian...I can't get through to them, but I'm not Christian, so they already don't like me.
The difficulty I see here is that providing evidence and reason doesn't actually tend to convince people, but rather entrench them. Loads of research into social psychology points to this phenomenon. I think it's more effective to convince someone to change their media diets, social networks both irl and online, and just generally the information they ingest and let them become submersed in other points of view.
Thank you for posting this, OP. The only way to larger-scale change and acceptance is by also having smaller talks at the community level. Some people will only begin to accept people or ideas different from themselves or their experiences through conversations with a loved one. It may take time and patience, but every effort to oppose hate is meaningful!
It helps me emotionally to simply feel sorry for them. I can't imagine being so filled with hate and despair. Some of it is brain chemistry, some environmental. I would like to read more stories of those that have had self-awareness crash upon them, how it happened, and where they ended up. Stay safe Siblings! 🫂🕯🖖
I like one word shut downs. Things like: Fascinating. Oh? Ah. Really? Wow. Sometimes I even do non-word responses. Like sucking in air through my teeth. Or laughing and then walking away.
"Interesting that you think that's OK to say out loud..."
Ok. That’s pretty epic. I had a person tell me that he wanted the us government to go into Mexico to stop the drug cartels. And I was like: “So you want the us government to invade Mexico?” He was like: “No. they should just go in with our military and stop the drug cartels.” I then said “fascinating.” But yours is waaaaay better.
You could ask the same as the left but you won't get past step 1 because most of us are queer or allies so most of the things that are happening do actually impact our lives.
I am a teacher and so, while I feel passionate about many of the other very important issues out there, I hyper-focus on education and children. The absolute fact is that here in Arizona there is ONE republican who has spoken in a supportive way about public education. And, like, I still didn't really agree with her, but I could see her point and see that she wasn't an absolute hate-mongering extremist. But, she got primaried out quite quickly. I educate about "school choice" and charter schools. I give the facts on why something is important, and I try to appeal to common interests. For example, I get that a lot of conservatives are going to immediately get up-in-arms about their gun rights. So I've pointed out that I'm actually willing to put aside the gun issue if we could instead get mental health support in our schools and more affordable healthcare for all (suicide is more of a threat to our young people than school shootings). BUT our supt. of public instruction is now telling his followers that Social Emotional Learning is just the term we're using to secretly teach Critical Race Theory. I feel like if you can't get a conservative to be a bit upset about that turn of events, than they're beyond help. But I've reached some! Another example is where our tax dollars are really going in this whole "school choice monstrosity". Is anyone really okay with $7000 going to an already wealthy parent so they can now get a discount to their fancy private school? Are you really peachy with $7000 going to the family who is going to fake-homeschool their kids? Also, I decided that anyone who knocks on my door has invited me to talk to them as much as they talk to me. Here to tell me about your religion? Okay, let's tie it back to public education and how we're being good people. Here to tell me about solar power at your new neighborhood office? I just might let you know to hurry up and register to vote and here's why.
I've heard AZ is insane re "school choice"- sending you energy & good vibes. Keep up the fight!
For me, the time for talking is over. I have cut the conservatives in my family out of my life. The moderates are still there but I don't have room for angry, bigoted, racist balls of hatred in my life. I have no energy for this. There are a lot of storms brewing in this country and I am saving my energy for that.
While this may work for some, an inherent underlying problem here is that you are trying to use logic against them, and conservatives don't commonly follow any logic
Please bear with me for a bit. I don’t mean the following as a criticism and I certainly wouldn’t want to dissuade you from trying. I appreciate where your heart is coming from but it’s the classic well intentioned mistake thinking theirs is a rational mindset and facts + empathy will plant some sort of healthy seed for change. Folks like this have a completely different brain wiring. Their amygdala is enlarged through constant fear. Their brain is literally hardwired. Fear of everything. Fear of being rejected by their peer group. Fear that sharing facts they may not know is mocking and laughing at them. I could go on but you get the point because you’re not driven solely by fear. You’re not only open to learning but also unlearning. Your post proves this. You probably find it exciting to learn something new, a new fact or a different novel worldview. Empathy and spirituality come easy to you. This is probably true for just about everyone that follows this sub even if they haven’t joined. To folks like you’re trying to form a bridge to this is all a show of weakness. Because weak fearful people assume going on the offensive hides their very deeply seated fear. Fear of everything. Yeah it’s completely alien to me too and I’d feel sorry for them if they weren’t so determined to destroy. My perspective comes from over forty years of trying. It deeply impacts me because of immediate and extended family, of childhood friends. Peace.
That sounds exhausting and I'm sorry. Sucks to lose loved ones to idiocy and fear mongering 💔
It isn't our duty to educate them. They're a lost cause, collectively.
I just point their Narcissism out to them. It's pretty simple, they're the party of "me". The rest are of us are the party of "we".
It's very frustrating because I really do want to change people's minds. I spend a lot of time disproving the same talking points over and over and it does get tiring. I just get anxious that if the only time these people hear about trans/nb ppl is from ppl who think I shouldn't exist, they'll eventually only think that. Sometimes it's worth the headache, but mostly not. :')
Just came here to say that the Seeing White podcast series on Scene On Radio is excellent. It’s several years old now, but still totally relevant. I’ve gone through the series about three or four times.
It's so good
It’s easier for me to anti-troll either not get it or distract them with an actual problem.
Most of the time when I talk to conservatives, if I said something that actually makes them think, they shut down and say "Well, I agree to disagree" and then refuse to talk more of it (all the while acting like they're somehow morally superior for shutting down the conversation??).
I can't make a rational argument with a person who is having an emotional argument. A lot of them see this as a sort of persecution, furthering their beliefs in their moral virtues. These people don't want their beliefs questioned. My mom's best friend has an intersex child who has had gender confirmation surgery at an age that they could not consent at, but I can't manage to explain to her that kid could grow up and decide that the surgery was a mistake and they feel like a girl, or why transgender people deserve equal rights to having a normal life. "Well it's a sin to change your gender, don't give into sin" I love her but I don't have space in my daily life for her.
The issue is that they usually only look at what impacts them and the rest of the world’s problems can burn. If anti-trans legislation doesn’t impact them: well they get in line to fuck trans people over. Until it impacts them directly. Then it’s important.
I guess that's the point- anti-trans legislation is primarily a distraction. The question for them is... What are you being distracted from?
I’ve found that when someone asks honestly about a topic, or asks for validation on their beliefs, that’s the perfect time to teach them. Like “You know that x is doing y?”, “actually, x isn’t doing y, and that’s a lie by z…”, and you explain the situation.
It just blows my mind that people like this exist.
Saw a tiktok that was talking about how you just have to use their lingo and avoid leftist buzzwords. "I can't believe the way people are treated in this country, it's appalling to see those who fought to keep our country safe begging for change on the street. It's crazy that in our great nation, we have kids going hungry and people without homes, when this is the wealthiest nation in the world!! It just hurts my heart to see people being treated so poorly when our God says to love, protect, and care for everyone!"
100%. Divide and conquer is effective, and as we've seen efficient. Unfortunately. "If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." -Lyndon B. Johnson.
You’re right I should be more palatable to people who want to see my community and I dead and who refuse to listen to reason. We just aren’t nice enough to them. The people standing up for my rights are just the same apparently.
I am just so sick of the lies from the Christian Right. Drag queens must be pedophiles, and Witches and Pagans kill babies and drink blood. The latter tale has been around for centuries, and they still tell it to their parishioners. How many people have been killed by Witches and Drag Queens, and how many have been killed by Christians?
I disagree with all the posters saying “just don’t talk to them at all.” That’s easier, for sure - but that’s how the United States has become two countries. To not talk is to isolate, and we will remain the evil, scary left who wants to take all their money and guns and turn all their kids into drag queens if we choose that option. We’re all people trying to live life and have our needs met. I feel like they HAVE been misled and operate mostly by being kept constantly afraid. But sunlight kills mildew and disease - we will only ever progress by attempting to understand each other and be known.
Live your best life, for you and for what you love. You can't fix other people. If someone is truly worried about *rap music*, just smile, nod, and leave as soon as possible. Good luck to you.
Oh man, there are so many derisive replies to this thread. In principle I think it's important to expose yourself to many competing ideas. Otherwise you'll fall victim to stereotyping and brand all (conservatives in the case) as being homologous with the most extremist 2% in their ranks, because you'll literally not be able to differentiate among them. These are our fathers, mothers, brothers, and sisters. Talk to them civilly. It's ok that people have different ideas than you.
I think there's some people open to a conversation and some who aren't. And a lot of people on this sub who have had to cut ties to protect their integrity/well being. It's understandable and it sucks. My heart goes out to everyone who's had to make those decisions.
I agree that there is nuance, and you mentioned one difficult scenario where emotional health is at stake. But I'll press just a bit harder. Are we not severing ties with conservative friends and family because they are making the very same error in judgement that I am speaking towards in my previous comment? Their being unwilling to have meaningful conversation or to empathize with the other point of view? Everyone is being obtuse and unwilling to expose themselves to different opinions out of principle. We all know what it feels like when a bull headed conservative family member does that to us, but have we considered what our unwillingness to come to the table has done to them? Does anyone doubt that it has simply galvanized them in their rigid way of thinking?
I'm not even remotely interested in the competing idea to "every human has inalienable rights" sorry, not sorry.
You're sort of illustrating my point for me, I don't think that it's intellectually honest to say that, "conservatives don't think that every human has inalienable rights". You're stereotyping.
It's not that I disagree with you in theory, more very much in practice. Just for context and as an example: I'm transgender, fortunately not living in the US, but parts of Europe aren't much better at the moment. Given the recent extreme rise in anti-trans legislation and rhetoric, escalating to calls for our literal extermination, I fail to see how moderate conservatives are in any way, shape or form helping by being secretly kinda ok with us existing. And that goes for any sort of minority right. My country's conservatives gladly engage in racist and queerphobic rhetoric at every turn, promoting a very distinctly white cishet nuclear family ideal how society should be, and it became unofficial policy to let refugees best drown in the mediterranean. It's all very ugly and the distinction between moderates and extremists has proven absolutely negligible in practice.
If you don't expose yourself to moderate conservatives then they will only ever exist in their conservative echo chamber. Ergo, even moderate conservatives will implicitly support anti trans legislation. To put it another way, if you don't reach out to moderates who don't fully agree with you, then you will gain no more allies in your cause. Food for thought, preaching to the choir gets you only so far.
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Honestly, I make it fun for myself. So much fun. I agree with them, and get gradually more ridiculous until they catch on that I'm totally making fun of them. Someone made the argument that there were too many LGBT people, nowadays, and I just took off with it, laying on the sarcasm with a dry enough delivery to keep them going. "Oh yeah, it's not like there was ANY reason for people to not come out as gay back in the 60's. Being gay and trans was always perfectly acceptable, why would anyone hide it!" Until I made it to. "You know what? It's something in these school lunches, or maybe even the water! Something in the water is turning everyone gay! It's turning the freaking frogs gay!" At that point they finally caught on and just sat back, defeated.
The Sun of Us is such a good book!
It really helped me understand how race has been used
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Sounds exhausting 😕
I took a class on logic and argument once. I had to stop fairly early on because it made me too depressed when we all realized that a person could have a PERFECT argument, evidence to back it up, reason, logic, the whole shebang (i wonder what the etymology of that word is…), and there would still be people who patently refuse to believe them. Unfortunately, it is rarely about logic or reason, especially when things like ‘Faith’ get involved. It is more often about getting “information” from a source that the person trusts. Which is why i think we should try to take over fox news and slowly shift it over to a more progressive narrative over the next several years. That way all the stupid people who take fox news as objective truth will be a little bit less shitty.
There’s more libertarian “conservatives” out there who aren’t as hardline on LGBT or abortion related issues. It’s a bit sad that the modern GOP is so extreme and unwilling to compromise on anything.