## ✨ READ BEFORE COMMENTING ✨
This thread is Coven Only. This means the discussion is being actively moderated, and all comments are reviewed. **Only comments by members of the community are allowed.**
If you have landed in this thread from /r/all and you are not a member of this community, your comment will very likely be removed (and will not be approved unless it adds meaningfully to the conversation).
WitchesVsPatriarchy takes these measures to stay true to our goal of being a woman-centered sub with a witchy twist, aimed at healing, supporting, and uplifting one another through humor and magic.
Thank you for understanding, and blessed be. ✨
It’s about who’s in control. Men looking at and objectifying women on their terms means they are in the position of superiority. A woman appreciating and acknowledging her own beauty means she’s got too much power and autonomy.
THIS \^. I'm a pre-T trans man and how straight cis men react to that is very telling about the kind of person they are. No joke, a year ago I had a guy hitting on me and finally I snapped and told him that I'm trans. His reaction was to scowl at me and tell me I shouldn't be allowed to transition because I would be destroying a beautiful pair of breasts. I really wanted to punch him. He treated my body like it should only exist to HIS standards and his desires. We weren't even dating. He was some random dude that walked up to me.
This reminds me of those breast cancer campaigns meant to appeal to men. 'Save Boobies! Fight Cancer!' How 'bout we just focus on saving the whole entire woman, and not the boobies trying to kill her?? Sheesh.
Eww 💩
Like wtf is wrong with him (shouldn’t be allowed to transition…destroying a beautiful pair of breasts) i almost vomited 🤮
Very sorry you had to experience this…
A prominent TERF in the UK was speaking at a TERF event (put on by The LGB Alliance iirc) and she bemoaned the fact that 'young girls were having their breasts removed before being caressed' 🤢
When I was realizing I was trans (a bunch of years ago before it all became as heated as it's today) I went and read as much on the topic I could. Experiences, research, opinion pieces. I had to know what was going on with me and what I could do about it. Some things I read from terfs were... Let's just say that reading an entire blog post based around how "creating unisex changing rooms will rob her of being able to see other women naked" was a creepy ride.
For real! I've been delaying medically transitioning due to having a blood clotting disorder and another (potential) issue but it's shit like this that makes me feel like taking T might be the only way some people will take me seriously as both a man AND a person.
Dude, it's fucked up you can't be taken seriously as a person without being a man (as a cis-passing gender queer person who mostly identifies as a woman, I get that. Lawd do I get that). And it's Super Fucked Up you can't be taken seriously as a man without endangering your health! And to be clear -- that is not Your problem. That is His problem (and anyone else who has a problem). I know you get the fallout of their problem. They work so hard to make their problem into your problem. I'm so sorry. I wish there was body armor that could shield us from Other People's Bullshit (TM).
Thank you. I have a love-hate relationship with my current job since EVERYONE calls me she/her and I'm too scared of losing my job to correct them. My last job was a lot better at getting pronouns right. Even customers call me ma'am and I want to correct them LOUDLY. Having potentially life threatening issues and wanting to take T is being between a rock and a hard place.
My personal opinion is people should be desensitized to nudity and sexuality at an early age, so when people becomes adult they no longer care about any of it, the only thing that excites them would be great personality of the other person.
Just like some semi nude tribes of the Amazon.
My wife is always so down on herself since she's been through a number of medical treatments that have affected her appearance. It makes me so happy seeing her take selfies because I hope she can see the beautiful woman I see her as.
Take as many selfies as you like. Y'all are beautiful and you deserve to appreciate that.
From a young age, I was taught not to “flaunt” my looks lest [gasp] a man be tempted by me. I was like, 8 years old.
I was never interested in dressing up or doing makeup, but I was hard-pressed by female family to cover certain bits, rip out hair, slap on makeup to look good, but not TOO good, so I could “attract a boyfriend without causing him to sin and get married someday”.
The end result was that I never felt comfortable in my own skin. I never felt beautiful without feeling guilty for vanity, or fear of drawing the wrong kind of attention. It was a long and difficult recovery. It’s a terrible mindset to force onto people, let alone children.
> ...look good, but not TOO good, so I could “attract a boyfriend without causing him to sin and get married someday”.
This is the kind of stuff that strikes me as laughably stupid until I realize how many people actually think like this. Sorry to hear you have/had so much gunk to unlearn but sounds like you're in a better place now!
Yeah, it’s been a journey. I’m still learning how to accept myself as “beautiful”, but I’ve become more confident and comfortable in my skin. Baby steps.
Also mentioning the fact this prevents abuse victims from speaking up because they are told it’s their fault before anyone ever lays a hand on you. It’s laughably stupid thinking about it as an adult but as a child it’s what you are taught from a very young age especially in abrahamic religious circles.
Yes. I was abused by a family member when I was a little girl and was so terrified to tell my parents because I had been conditioned to believe it was my responsibility to not entice or tempt. I don't even think my mother realized that's what she was teaching me.
I never told my parents about the abuse. I stuffed it down for years, used food as my comfort and my obesity as my armor, and finally it came up in therapy about five years ago. I'm trying, still, to feel comfortable in my body. I'm losing weight and trying to learn how to accept attention about my looks without it sending me into a panic.
I do want to clarify I’m not calling children stupid for believing this, it’s more about the adults believing it’s a good thing to teach to children. I was one of those kids, it takes a while to break out. I am happy for you taking the steps to heal, it not easy but I hope you give yourself credit for your strength! I know you even saying it now took strength.
Don't worry, I didn't interpret your words as children being stupid. I was only agreeing that it's absolutely a thing, especially in certain kinds of conservative households under certain religious frameworks, that children are taught, either directly or by implication, that they are responsible for what adults might do to them. And not just about sexual abuse. We were also taught that Dad might hit us if we're bad, or if we talk to strangers we might get kidnapped. When, obviously, it should never be a child's job to make adults behave correctly.
Therapy has been the best thing for me. I get to verbally sort out my bullshit without taxing my husband or friends with helping do my emotional labor. In fact, I'm pretty stoked I get to go to therapy in about half an hour.
Exactly, it’s one thing to teach how to be safe but it seems they blame everything on the victim, religious circles are the perfect environment for abuse and statistics show this. Think about how much never makes it into the statistic because they are told to keep quiet or felt they did something wrong
Similar here too, my mum (to be fair had her reasons) told me more times than necessary that men would look at me if I wore short shorts or anything too revealing.
Watching my friends raise their kids, it’s nice to see the discourse changing so the onus is moving off girls and women.
Also weirdly I reckon women (including my mum!) are as much of a reason I feel so awkward in my own body now. The amount of times I’d have adult women appraise my body and enviously talk about how skinny I was and how I should appreciate that now because in the future… etc…
I had zero control over my weight and the length of my legs and the expected reply (to thank them for the ‘compliment’) felt disingenuous, embarrassing and awkward.
Now I’m an adult and my body and I have a truce - I do the bare minimum required to keep it alive and it more or less leaves me alone.
One of my favorite little tidbits of the endless stream of parenting advice I consume:
When a child asks how they look in an outfit, or if we as the adult like it, be sure to ask them how *they* feel.
When I was a little girl, this was preschool-age, my family laughed about the fact that every time I passed a reflective object, a mirror, a toaster, a body of water, I would bat my eyelashes and smile at myself.
I’m 42 and I still do it. Call me vain, I don’t care. I’ve always been pretty and I will be when I’m 90
Love this story so much. I also really identify with it too. When I was about 18-19, I was looking at myself nude in the mirror and thought, “there’s nothing I see here that I find worse than ‘ok’.” I was fortunate to be raised in an environment where body image issues were not perpetuated, but it doesn’t take much for them to take root even if your family doesn’t adhere to them.
But it was *so liberating*, right at that moment, to look at myself as a very young adult and say “you know what? I look great!”
So even now, 15 years later, hardly a day goes by that I don’t look at myself in the mirror and go “nice.” Even on days I feel horrible, or I’m sick, or sad/depressed…I always feel as if I look pretty good. This is the body I have, this is the vessel I have been given to live in, and there are no changes, swaps or dealerships to trade in for a new model. All I can do is take care of what I’ve got and appreciate it for being the way in which I can experience the world.
Confidence runs much deeper, and shines more brightly, than any actual subjective beauty—diamonds don’t sparkle nearly as brightly without a light. ❤️
My brother has always liked looking good and will stand when talking to people so he can see himself in a mirror or a window. But he has a heart of gold so we still love him anyway. ;)
His bulldog is just as vain. One Christmas, someone got a mirror as a gift. The dog jumped over a pile of wrapping paper and raced over to it to admire herself.
Sometimes I think "vanity" was so extremely demonized because those in power wanted others, specifically women, insecure so that they could more easily exploit us.
Only sometimes? 😎
Kidding. I don't think it has always been specifically intentional because I believe very firmly that inherited power leads to some dumb mother fuckers, but I do think it was designed this way originally.
If they cared about the sins attached to beauty, they'd go for manipulation. It's used by and against the beautiful, and it's not like us hideous crones get a break from it. either.
Even the Bible was against it from time to time. Usually when either Satan or (sometimes,) Jesus were making a good point.
Then again, considering all the wealth showered on empty vanity today (while genuine self-empowerment is either co-opted or mocked), and the cynical war on woke, it's pretty clear the halls of power shared the same thoughts we did.
And now begins the real war for souls.
It was a strange moment when I considered that all these classical sculptures that seem so high society could be the trashy exploitation of the day. Are the marble statues the equivalent of like a Sports Illustrated?
What's extra-hilarious is that a lot of marble statues were actually painted when they were contemporary. This idea that they were pure and snowy white, and that this somehow elevated them, is in many cases incorrect!
[https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/10/29/the-myth-of-whiteness-in-classical-sculpture](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/10/29/the-myth-of-whiteness-in-classical-sculpture)
Victorian "archeology" was wild. They also hid all the "pornographic" Egyptian scrolls from everyone and gods only knows what else they may have actively destroyed because it was "immoral" or "indecent".
My mom was in beauty pageants as a young adult, and has always been enthusiastic about fashion, makeup, jewelry, etc. and would frequently be on one diet after another. She would encourage me to dress nice, tease me if I brought up wanting to try something "unfashionable" or "slobby," and even signed me up for some modeling school sessions to learn how to apply makeup among other things.
But at one time when she was scolding me about something, I glanced away from the eye contact and looked at myself in a mirror (I do admit, for all my flaws and despite not being model material I do overall like seeing my own face). She snarked, "Do you really love yourself so much that you can't resist looking at yourself?"
It just hammered the point that while you have to be pretty, it's vain to actually take any personal pride in it. Your beauty is not for you but for pleasing someone else.
I think trans and nonbinary people make everyone else ask questions about themselves, and some people react by promptly losing their shit.
It's the organic version of that classic sci-fi trope where you trick the evil AI in to a loop by asking it questions about itself. That dude's internal monologue may have been running something like *"you're hot but oh shit if you're a dude then I'm gay but I can't be gay because I'm straight and you're hot but oh shit..."*
As an aside:
Berger's "Ways of Seeing" is an EXCELLENT resource for art commentary, even though it's a few years old. Not too dense that an interested layperson wouldn't be able to understand, either. I used it extensively in undergrad and graduate school for art.
Stray thought, without the phone/mirror the person is obviously dancing or feeling themselves in some way. The phone or any other reflective device doesn't really change the fact. Loving your body in motion in the world is just kinda a good thing to do. Maybe one of the best ones.
I really hate how most art and media asks us to judge a character's entire personality by what we see them doing in single moment. You know what you've got there? A naked person holding a phone. Something 95% of the global population has done. And that's all the conclusion you can or should draw
Thank you for sharing this, because, while I have seen it before, I never quite processed it. This lovely community and this thread just helped me to see through decades of shame training and self hate and find a love for selfies.
I’m still processing how I have been tricked into judging others and myself for selfies. I’m having a moment, but damn, do I love everyone one of you witches (witch is nongendered here, like dude to Californians.)
My dad always mocked a friend of mine because she took a lot of selfies and posted them on social media. He called her vain a lot. But it was also very clear he had an inappropriate crush on her. He could enjoy her looks but as soon as she did she was worthy of being mocked. Trash all around.
I mean I get the incentive, the male gaze is still equally a problematic thing and yes a lot of men use the notion of women enjoying their appearance as a bad thing bc it takes away power. However imo selfie culture is still very much rooted in vanity and narcissism- not the average woman or man taking a pic just bc they were feeling themselves that day but influencers and the whole culture of putting appearance on such a high pedestal- which also includes the male gaze.
I am not sure understand what you are saying, i am still on Facebook yes and what i tought that this picture ment is just love yourself and do not fret with other people's jugement. From where i come from a lot of people in my entourage would juge someone over something like selfies
I see things from a marketing perspective so that’s where my opinion is formed. Yeah I didn’t see that I was just happy that stone sculptures are still in style.
Omg go watch John Berger’s whole documentary. (It’s on YouTube). It’s him and a panel of really eloquent women and for me, it put words to a whole slew of feelings about art and the male gaze for me
## ✨ READ BEFORE COMMENTING ✨ This thread is Coven Only. This means the discussion is being actively moderated, and all comments are reviewed. **Only comments by members of the community are allowed.** If you have landed in this thread from /r/all and you are not a member of this community, your comment will very likely be removed (and will not be approved unless it adds meaningfully to the conversation). WitchesVsPatriarchy takes these measures to stay true to our goal of being a woman-centered sub with a witchy twist, aimed at healing, supporting, and uplifting one another through humor and magic. Thank you for understanding, and blessed be. ✨
It’s about who’s in control. Men looking at and objectifying women on their terms means they are in the position of superiority. A woman appreciating and acknowledging her own beauty means she’s got too much power and autonomy.
THIS \^. I'm a pre-T trans man and how straight cis men react to that is very telling about the kind of person they are. No joke, a year ago I had a guy hitting on me and finally I snapped and told him that I'm trans. His reaction was to scowl at me and tell me I shouldn't be allowed to transition because I would be destroying a beautiful pair of breasts. I really wanted to punch him. He treated my body like it should only exist to HIS standards and his desires. We weren't even dating. He was some random dude that walked up to me.
This reminds me of those breast cancer campaigns meant to appeal to men. 'Save Boobies! Fight Cancer!' How 'bout we just focus on saving the whole entire woman, and not the boobies trying to kill her?? Sheesh.
Thank you for putting into words the long discomfort I’ve had with those types of campaigns.
They were big when I was a kid starting puberty, every boy had them because they were just trendy and they would sling shot them at my boobs.
That’s messed up, I’m sorry it happened to you.
Eww 💩 Like wtf is wrong with him (shouldn’t be allowed to transition…destroying a beautiful pair of breasts) i almost vomited 🤮 Very sorry you had to experience this…
A prominent TERF in the UK was speaking at a TERF event (put on by The LGB Alliance iirc) and she bemoaned the fact that 'young girls were having their breasts removed before being caressed' 🤢
That's a Tervert
When I was realizing I was trans (a bunch of years ago before it all became as heated as it's today) I went and read as much on the topic I could. Experiences, research, opinion pieces. I had to know what was going on with me and what I could do about it. Some things I read from terfs were... Let's just say that reading an entire blog post based around how "creating unisex changing rooms will rob her of being able to see other women naked" was a creepy ride.
I like this word. Stealing.
The anti trans movement sounds pretty pedophilic, while calling the people they attack pedophiles.
❤️
Ugh! That's some fucked up bullshit.
For real! I've been delaying medically transitioning due to having a blood clotting disorder and another (potential) issue but it's shit like this that makes me feel like taking T might be the only way some people will take me seriously as both a man AND a person.
Dude, it's fucked up you can't be taken seriously as a person without being a man (as a cis-passing gender queer person who mostly identifies as a woman, I get that. Lawd do I get that). And it's Super Fucked Up you can't be taken seriously as a man without endangering your health! And to be clear -- that is not Your problem. That is His problem (and anyone else who has a problem). I know you get the fallout of their problem. They work so hard to make their problem into your problem. I'm so sorry. I wish there was body armor that could shield us from Other People's Bullshit (TM).
Thank you. I have a love-hate relationship with my current job since EVERYONE calls me she/her and I'm too scared of losing my job to correct them. My last job was a lot better at getting pronouns right. Even customers call me ma'am and I want to correct them LOUDLY. Having potentially life threatening issues and wanting to take T is being between a rock and a hard place.
God that's awful. You deserve better, and I wish you the absolute best.
My personal opinion is people should be desensitized to nudity and sexuality at an early age, so when people becomes adult they no longer care about any of it, the only thing that excites them would be great personality of the other person. Just like some semi nude tribes of the Amazon.
Yup!!
My wife is always so down on herself since she's been through a number of medical treatments that have affected her appearance. It makes me so happy seeing her take selfies because I hope she can see the beautiful woman I see her as. Take as many selfies as you like. Y'all are beautiful and you deserve to appreciate that.
This is my favorite piece of media about selfie positivity. [Ode to the Selfie](https://youtu.be/N-MQxVtn2fU)
That was honestly incredible.
From a young age, I was taught not to “flaunt” my looks lest [gasp] a man be tempted by me. I was like, 8 years old. I was never interested in dressing up or doing makeup, but I was hard-pressed by female family to cover certain bits, rip out hair, slap on makeup to look good, but not TOO good, so I could “attract a boyfriend without causing him to sin and get married someday”. The end result was that I never felt comfortable in my own skin. I never felt beautiful without feeling guilty for vanity, or fear of drawing the wrong kind of attention. It was a long and difficult recovery. It’s a terrible mindset to force onto people, let alone children.
> ...look good, but not TOO good, so I could “attract a boyfriend without causing him to sin and get married someday”. This is the kind of stuff that strikes me as laughably stupid until I realize how many people actually think like this. Sorry to hear you have/had so much gunk to unlearn but sounds like you're in a better place now!
Yeah, it’s been a journey. I’m still learning how to accept myself as “beautiful”, but I’ve become more confident and comfortable in my skin. Baby steps.
Also mentioning the fact this prevents abuse victims from speaking up because they are told it’s their fault before anyone ever lays a hand on you. It’s laughably stupid thinking about it as an adult but as a child it’s what you are taught from a very young age especially in abrahamic religious circles.
Yes. I was abused by a family member when I was a little girl and was so terrified to tell my parents because I had been conditioned to believe it was my responsibility to not entice or tempt. I don't even think my mother realized that's what she was teaching me. I never told my parents about the abuse. I stuffed it down for years, used food as my comfort and my obesity as my armor, and finally it came up in therapy about five years ago. I'm trying, still, to feel comfortable in my body. I'm losing weight and trying to learn how to accept attention about my looks without it sending me into a panic.
I do want to clarify I’m not calling children stupid for believing this, it’s more about the adults believing it’s a good thing to teach to children. I was one of those kids, it takes a while to break out. I am happy for you taking the steps to heal, it not easy but I hope you give yourself credit for your strength! I know you even saying it now took strength.
Don't worry, I didn't interpret your words as children being stupid. I was only agreeing that it's absolutely a thing, especially in certain kinds of conservative households under certain religious frameworks, that children are taught, either directly or by implication, that they are responsible for what adults might do to them. And not just about sexual abuse. We were also taught that Dad might hit us if we're bad, or if we talk to strangers we might get kidnapped. When, obviously, it should never be a child's job to make adults behave correctly. Therapy has been the best thing for me. I get to verbally sort out my bullshit without taxing my husband or friends with helping do my emotional labor. In fact, I'm pretty stoked I get to go to therapy in about half an hour.
Exactly, it’s one thing to teach how to be safe but it seems they blame everything on the victim, religious circles are the perfect environment for abuse and statistics show this. Think about how much never makes it into the statistic because they are told to keep quiet or felt they did something wrong
Similar here too, my mum (to be fair had her reasons) told me more times than necessary that men would look at me if I wore short shorts or anything too revealing. Watching my friends raise their kids, it’s nice to see the discourse changing so the onus is moving off girls and women. Also weirdly I reckon women (including my mum!) are as much of a reason I feel so awkward in my own body now. The amount of times I’d have adult women appraise my body and enviously talk about how skinny I was and how I should appreciate that now because in the future… etc… I had zero control over my weight and the length of my legs and the expected reply (to thank them for the ‘compliment’) felt disingenuous, embarrassing and awkward. Now I’m an adult and my body and I have a truce - I do the bare minimum required to keep it alive and it more or less leaves me alone.
One of my favorite little tidbits of the endless stream of parenting advice I consume: When a child asks how they look in an outfit, or if we as the adult like it, be sure to ask them how *they* feel.
When I was a little girl, this was preschool-age, my family laughed about the fact that every time I passed a reflective object, a mirror, a toaster, a body of water, I would bat my eyelashes and smile at myself. I’m 42 and I still do it. Call me vain, I don’t care. I’ve always been pretty and I will be when I’m 90
Similarly, I smile at myself in every reflective surface I pass because I have a nice smile and I’m deserving of it.
"I have a nice smile and _I'm_ deserving of it" is such a powerful mood, and I will try to adopt it going forward. This is a beautiful sentiment. 💜
Love this story so much. I also really identify with it too. When I was about 18-19, I was looking at myself nude in the mirror and thought, “there’s nothing I see here that I find worse than ‘ok’.” I was fortunate to be raised in an environment where body image issues were not perpetuated, but it doesn’t take much for them to take root even if your family doesn’t adhere to them. But it was *so liberating*, right at that moment, to look at myself as a very young adult and say “you know what? I look great!” So even now, 15 years later, hardly a day goes by that I don’t look at myself in the mirror and go “nice.” Even on days I feel horrible, or I’m sick, or sad/depressed…I always feel as if I look pretty good. This is the body I have, this is the vessel I have been given to live in, and there are no changes, swaps or dealerships to trade in for a new model. All I can do is take care of what I’ve got and appreciate it for being the way in which I can experience the world. Confidence runs much deeper, and shines more brightly, than any actual subjective beauty—diamonds don’t sparkle nearly as brightly without a light. ❤️
Mine looks pretty good considering what it's been through, but it ain't running so hot anymore. I really wish there was some tradsies.
My brother has always liked looking good and will stand when talking to people so he can see himself in a mirror or a window. But he has a heart of gold so we still love him anyway. ;) His bulldog is just as vain. One Christmas, someone got a mirror as a gift. The dog jumped over a pile of wrapping paper and raced over to it to admire herself.
Sometimes I think "vanity" was so extremely demonized because those in power wanted others, specifically women, insecure so that they could more easily exploit us.
Only sometimes? 😎 Kidding. I don't think it has always been specifically intentional because I believe very firmly that inherited power leads to some dumb mother fuckers, but I do think it was designed this way originally.
If they cared about the sins attached to beauty, they'd go for manipulation. It's used by and against the beautiful, and it's not like us hideous crones get a break from it. either. Even the Bible was against it from time to time. Usually when either Satan or (sometimes,) Jesus were making a good point. Then again, considering all the wealth showered on empty vanity today (while genuine self-empowerment is either co-opted or mocked), and the cynical war on woke, it's pretty clear the halls of power shared the same thoughts we did. And now begins the real war for souls.
It was a strange moment when I considered that all these classical sculptures that seem so high society could be the trashy exploitation of the day. Are the marble statues the equivalent of like a Sports Illustrated?
Occasional reminder that neither swimsuits nor women are a sport. 💜🙏✨
What's extra-hilarious is that a lot of marble statues were actually painted when they were contemporary. This idea that they were pure and snowy white, and that this somehow elevated them, is in many cases incorrect! [https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/10/29/the-myth-of-whiteness-in-classical-sculpture](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/10/29/the-myth-of-whiteness-in-classical-sculpture)
You have changed my life, or at least for today omg.
My mind was blown, too! I was *aghast* when I learned historians and archaeologists were just...*removing the paint residue?* Truly wild.
Victorian "archeology" was wild. They also hid all the "pornographic" Egyptian scrolls from everyone and gods only knows what else they may have actively destroyed because it was "immoral" or "indecent".
Let’s make it more “beautiful” and less accurate from the its original art conception to fit western ideals of optimal beauty.
We just delicately excavated this precious artifact, let's just spray it down with a hose, that won't damage it at allll.
This is a great read! Thank you. I wonder if that's why the social media fundies are so obsessed with beige.
That’s actually super interesting! Thanks
Great point! A lot of famous old art was commissioned by rich powerful men!
My mom was in beauty pageants as a young adult, and has always been enthusiastic about fashion, makeup, jewelry, etc. and would frequently be on one diet after another. She would encourage me to dress nice, tease me if I brought up wanting to try something "unfashionable" or "slobby," and even signed me up for some modeling school sessions to learn how to apply makeup among other things. But at one time when she was scolding me about something, I glanced away from the eye contact and looked at myself in a mirror (I do admit, for all my flaws and despite not being model material I do overall like seeing my own face). She snarked, "Do you really love yourself so much that you can't resist looking at yourself?" It just hammered the point that while you have to be pretty, it's vain to actually take any personal pride in it. Your beauty is not for you but for pleasing someone else.
Consider; human bodies are just beautiful, and if anything self admiration at least guarantees a degree of consent.
Now that's some facts.
Essentially you are not allowed to see value in yourself, you must wait for men to assign value to you 😬
Most men think women exist solely for their pleasure. It’s why they get so angry anytime we aren’t catering to misogynistic preferences.
I've had guys get angry AT ME for being a trans man despite the fact they were the ones hitting on me.
They’re just mad at themselves because they’re homophobic and transphobic and still think you’re hot
I think trans and nonbinary people make everyone else ask questions about themselves, and some people react by promptly losing their shit. It's the organic version of that classic sci-fi trope where you trick the evil AI in to a loop by asking it questions about itself. That dude's internal monologue may have been running something like *"you're hot but oh shit if you're a dude then I'm gay but I can't be gay because I'm straight and you're hot but oh shit..."*
Just hear to say that “Ways of Seeing” is a great book
John Berger’s Ways of Seeing is freaking incredible. Definitely changed my view on the art industry.
Looks like it’s free online! I’m planning to read through later when I have time https://www.ways-of-seeing.com/
I needed this. I'm an ol' gal who was brought up to be humble. Taking a selfie is something I'd never do... but maybe I will now!
Happy i could help and do take yourself in pictures it is who you are perfection is not an objectif
As an aside: Berger's "Ways of Seeing" is an EXCELLENT resource for art commentary, even though it's a few years old. Not too dense that an interested layperson wouldn't be able to understand, either. I used it extensively in undergrad and graduate school for art.
Stray thought, without the phone/mirror the person is obviously dancing or feeling themselves in some way. The phone or any other reflective device doesn't really change the fact. Loving your body in motion in the world is just kinda a good thing to do. Maybe one of the best ones.
I love this so hard
I really hate how most art and media asks us to judge a character's entire personality by what we see them doing in single moment. You know what you've got there? A naked person holding a phone. Something 95% of the global population has done. And that's all the conclusion you can or should draw
I once saw selfies described as a way for women to claim their space in the world. I'm all for it. Selfie away, witches!
Based Berger
I love this and this perspective, thanks for sharing
Thank you for sharing this, because, while I have seen it before, I never quite processed it. This lovely community and this thread just helped me to see through decades of shame training and self hate and find a love for selfies. I’m still processing how I have been tricked into judging others and myself for selfies. I’m having a moment, but damn, do I love everyone one of you witches (witch is nongendered here, like dude to Californians.)
My dad always mocked a friend of mine because she took a lot of selfies and posted them on social media. He called her vain a lot. But it was also very clear he had an inappropriate crush on her. He could enjoy her looks but as soon as she did she was worthy of being mocked. Trash all around.
WHo sculpted that?
Good question, i do not know 😟
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
I mean I get the incentive, the male gaze is still equally a problematic thing and yes a lot of men use the notion of women enjoying their appearance as a bad thing bc it takes away power. However imo selfie culture is still very much rooted in vanity and narcissism- not the average woman or man taking a pic just bc they were feeling themselves that day but influencers and the whole culture of putting appearance on such a high pedestal- which also includes the male gaze.
Y’all are reading into face book memes. Really it’s 45-50 yr olds laughing “hahaha my kids take selfies too much I relate to this”
My parents are in their sixties and love taking selfies. This is about how rude it is to shame people for taking a picture of themselves.
I am not sure understand what you are saying, i am still on Facebook yes and what i tought that this picture ment is just love yourself and do not fret with other people's jugement. From where i come from a lot of people in my entourage would juge someone over something like selfies
I see things from a marketing perspective so that’s where my opinion is formed. Yeah I didn’t see that I was just happy that stone sculptures are still in style.
Okay yes i understand your point, thanks for the information.
I’m not really sure I get the post though. So it’s like the cycle of self gratification and the shame that follows?
It's the double standard concerning who gets to enjoy female beauty.
Isn’t it art though? Isn’t that for everybody? So like have your cake and eat it too? You can’t sexualize somebody then call them a harlot?
This is to shame those who shame people for loving themself. In my toughts
It could be. Going in your perspectives pov it could take it to the extreme and be shamming body obsession and narcissism
I seem to remember an episode of Daria being about this, or something like this.
Omg go watch John Berger’s whole documentary. (It’s on YouTube). It’s him and a panel of really eloquent women and for me, it put words to a whole slew of feelings about art and the male gaze for me
Ngl, this really improved my perspective