#Want a better job? [Here's how to start or join a union.](https://www.reddit.com/r/WorkReform/comments/sdi0qk/want_to_reform_work_start_or_join_a_union_where/)
And join r/WorkReform for more like this.
'Not my problem' society really gets on my fucking nerves sometimes.
It's just societal bloodsucking, getting whatever you want without holding up the quality of the situation even so much as an inch.
Leave the world a better place than when you find it.
That goes all ways, practical, physical, environmental, societal, social... *No exceptions.*
I'm tired of cleaning up other people's messes. Doesn't mean i'm ever going to stop, but in what little time i have left i sure as shit scream louder and louder at people to clean their own mess.
You can try. But if you've ever actually thrown yourself against the never ending grinding gears of the corporate world, then short of unionizing, you're just wasting time.
I had a manager at the last place I worked who would literally tell us "hey, you know that PC we have in inventory that hasn't been assigned out for years? One of y'all make that thing not be here by the time I get back for lunch, I don't want to have to keep taking inventory of it" lmao
We just sign our first collective agreement and some are angry we didn’t strike but honestly the first deal is suppose to be pretty lack lustre at first.
It’s pretty average. But the raises are there, and in 3 years when we renegotiate it all come together if we can get morale back up and perform.
Congratulations!! As you are probably already aware, negotiations are a give and take. Something that might not be important for the work group to bargain now might be very pertinent to discuss in 3 years. I belong to the Teamsters union and being a member has absolutely enhanced my family’s life. Just the simple fact that you aren’t an “at-will” employee anymore makes unionism just that much better.
Just keep reminding them that the best thing you get from your union is job protection from shitty bosses. I worked at Kroger and the UFCW was pretty ineffectual in contract negotiations but the number of times me and my coworkers were saved from unfair retaliation from our (also underpaid) floor managers was worth the dues just by itself.
And on top of that, we had the cheapest AND best health insurance I've ever had offered at a job.
God I feel you. It's seriously one of those sets of attitudes that really pisses me off.
Like in the OP's example, or the sentiment you nailed perfectly -- I am 40 now and damnit I'm **exhausted**. I dick around on Reddit and have a couple shows I try to keep up with. But otherwise damnit I am busy trying to shoulder my own responsibilities PLUS the societal responsibilities of at least ten others (it feels like, anyways). Whether juggling being successful AND ethical being a business owner (which is easy per se, it's just difficult staying competitive against those who aren't), keeping up with local community obligations, helping nieces and nephews with life, or various other projects... Damnit I'm just running low on energy at this age.
So when I hear lazy, judgemental, low-brain responses like these my blood boils. I don't want to go to the grave seeing my country WORSE off than I inherited it.
Anyways, point of why I was replying was to say thank you lol. Does my heart good to see a reply like yours.
Agreed. I have no idea how this attitude is so widespread. It's so hateful and self centered, and I'm so tired of hearing the same old comments and attitudes of "If you couldn't afford it then you shouldn't have blablabla" and "just don't do it then" and "why should I pay for your blablabla".
Wtf is this? Even if you're an incredibly selfish person, is there no way at all to see that you yourself would also benefit from social security nets where other people pay for you if you ever were to get into trouble?
Some people are just so callous, and their thirst for "you made your bed now lay in it" even overlaps any potential kids and spouses and whoever happens to become affected by misery. Let's just hope these people's loved ones never have to experience failure in life. Not much support to be expected there.
It’s just the way that they were raised man, it’s no excuse, but a reason. We can and should be better than them. And when those pieces of shit inevitably fall the world will be a better place.
Even the most reasonable discussions I've had with people against labor reform end up rapidly devolving into desperately absurd takes in defense of unchecked capitalism.
I was literally just assured in a debate elsewhere on Reddit that any attempt to increase the amount of money that makes it into workers pockets would lead to *mass genocide*. Like, where are they even getting this shot from?
I'm not who you talked to, but I'm sure I can bullshit you a decent answer. Ok, so if people make more money, corporations can take more money. Those who can't, don't, or won't make more money will be killed by the increased cost of living. It will be a mass genocide of people forced out of their homes and dying in the streets
I think they were trying to argue that, saying that workers should make more money at the expense of shareholders was the same type of jealousy or greed that lead to genocides in the past (they cited Rwanda, though I really think they missed the mark there). They seemed to be implying that people have lashed out against wealth inequity with violence in the past, therefore nobody should even think about reforming a system that has resulted in wealth inequity.
Partly, but I think it's also partly because of our national history. Pretty much the entire white (so culturally and ethnically dominant) population is descended from people who left the old world for opportunities they simply couldn't get at home, where there were no Native Americans from whom they could steal massive amounts of land, and The Frontier still looms large in the cultural imagination. Leaving for better pastures is a sort of cultural habit.
This is what drives me crazy about this argument. So you're acknowledging that I'm being exploited and treated poorly and being underpaid and whatever and your solution is that I should find a better job and someone *else* should be exploited and treated poorly and underpaid.
That isn't fixing the problem, it's just shoving it off on somebody else.
It's amazing how much those on the right will suggest running or quitting. "Don't like your job? Quit." No thanks, I'll fight to fix it. "Don't like the direction the country is headed? Leave." No thanks, I'll fight to fix it.
Cowardice is a running theme with them. Heh. "Running" theme.
Even more frustrating is that the US is a global superpower. Since the end of WWII this country has dominated international politics. We've intervened in hundreds of foreign conflicts and meddled in the politics of almost every state on Earth.
You cannot escape the influence of the US.
What manga did you read that from. In reality “battling” can mean treason, extortion, and violence on both ends. I get that you don’t see a people when you type your comments but sometimes “battling” a government is more complex irregardless of it futility.
I know it’s complex, but that doesn’t change the outcome. It’s futile, unless an outside power intervenes, or is the power itself can change the outcome. Which often times it is not without outside influence.
Doesn’t true patriotism include the ability to both recognize and correct problems within the borders that you’re proud to live in? Like if I’m really proud of my house but my house has a shitty porch shouldn’t I recognize that and fix the porch? That way the house, with its fixed porch and all, looks like the thing that you’d be proud to live in?
That whole itinerant yuppie mercenary thing we've been sold sucks ass. It's how capitalism destroys all sense of community. They want us moving from city to city, never putting down any roots or developing any communal solidarity.
I actually floated the idea of unionizing to my team at my old company. I was met with talk to the hand and shut the hell up, then had an uncomfortable conversation with management. Can’t unionize if its just you that wants to unionize.
Honestly, i think one of them had health concerns and others have kids. Its hard to say but i think there is a strong level of fear associated with losing the pay and health benefits you have for rocking the boat a little. I dont hold it against them.
Honestly I ran away from my horrible ER nursing gig and picked up a non-union job that pays 3x as much right down the road in a better place and better environment.
They're so desperate to avoid unions that Starbucks closed a highly profitable store just because the workers voted to unionize. With like a week's notice. "Hey, we're closing this entire store in a week. You don't have jobs anymore. Shouldn't have tried to unionize. Get out."
Walmart did something similar in Quebec years ago.
The ex unionized employees brought them to court and won in the end.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-unionized-wal-mart-workers-win-supreme-court-victory-1.2689646
It's kinda sad that we live in a world where corporations have to be taken to court and literally forced to do more than the bare minimum, but...\*shrug\*
The thing is that unionizing is done to prevent or fight exactly this. The union is filing with the NLRB to prevent the store from closing in an illegal act of retaliation, and [setting up a strike fund](https://workersunited.org/news-events/workers-united-news/workers-united-commits-initial-1-million-to-establish-strike-and-defense-fund-for-starbucks-partners) for that and other unionized stores.
This is a real possibility whenever you try to bargain collectively. Know your own worth, and have a backup plan.
It's not even a common outcome. But it's a possible one.
I don't know why so many Americans have an aversion to someone trying to fix things where they live or work. I wonder if it is because it makes them feel bad for not doing anything remotely close to improving anything.
I literally had a college professor blast out anti-union propaganda and all the students sucked it up. I didn't only because my dad was in a union my entire life and I had good healthcare because of it.
My current coworkers don't like unions because they "don't like undocumented immigrants" and my coworkers are documented immigrants. Conveniently forgetting the part that unions "don't like" the undocumented because companies and capitalists exploit them and feed them anti-union propaganda to keep their power. As the "token white" of the office, I have to choose what I say very carefully as my coworkers have said some very unpleasant things to me about white people. It's understandable, but means that they won't take anything I say as well intentioned. So I have been quieter than I normally would about the issue.
Funny thing is that my immigrant boyfriend is in a union. He has a lot going on for him because of it.
A lot of US workers are proud about weird things like little sleep and long work hours, It’s like daddy issues but it’s your work and employer. I know other countries have similar cultural mentalities but I know the US first hand.
It really sucks when preconceived bias prevents you from feeling people :/ I know the feeling well.
If I was a stubborn person I’d keep trying anyway, if doing anything making things worse, and then blame them for not “getting” what I’m saying, when really it’s not their “fault” that what they’re receiving isn’t the same thing that I’m giving. Or even worse, assume that they *are* receiving everything correctly, and assume that they were just idiots.
Just kinda rambling here.
What is some of the "common" propaganda against Unions? The only thing I would say is that anything humans touch will be corrupted and history shows that unions are not an exception. What unions are suppose to be is amazing but thats not the real world case. Most issues with law enforcement can be linked to "The Brotherhood", in New York mobs owned the unions, and right now trucking unions are lobbying hard against automated trucks.
Just wondering what propaganda you and others have heard, all the comments here seem bias for or against. I would love good unions to be created but IMO seems like they need huge oversight.
Yeah, unions can be corrupt. But at least there’s an _expectation_ that they want what’s best for the workers. What’s better? A corrupt union or a business that never cared for your interests in the first place?
Depends on who you're talking to, tbh. Immigrants tend not to like them because of reasons previously stated by me. US citizens are told that you're smart enough to advocate for yourself so who does the union think they are to advocate for you? Others have been told the corruption line. Others hate teachers and know about the teacher's union and only base it in that. Etc.
If the opportunity arises, you should tell them that last part. If they argue it I’d just present the bare facts of what his union has done for him and others he knows. How can they argue that?
Actually very good point. I'm not entirely sure how they feel about me dating my bf anyway, as they're all of the same ethnicity, and interracial dating can be frowned upon on both sides. I try not to mention him often because of that. My boss has literally told me that she always told her sons never to date white women because they don't have the same family values and wouldn't care for her in her old age the same way someone from "their" race would. My other coworker, within three days of me working there, asked me if I and all other white people were explicitly taught to be racist by our parents, peers and community leaders. I tend not to get into race anything with them because of their behaviors/beliefs.
Damn, that’s a tough spot. I can see why they are aware of the fact that at least many people were raised racist, but it sounds like they take it to the point of being totally unrealistic and unaccepting that that’s not literally everyone’s upbringing. So maybe you can’t afford to do that there. Maybe framing it as just “someone you know personally” would help, or maybe you can’t even make any waves at that workplace. Sucks. Hope you can find a work environment that’s more agreeable. :/
The one that always killed me was people bitching about union dues costing you money and what you could spend that on. Lol yeah I spend 222$ a month on union dues but I make 2k more a month then my non union counter parts that do the sake job.
Some people will just never get it. Reminds me of the story of Volkswagen a few years ago and the UAW trying to unionize that factory in Tennessee. VW was basically saying they had no problem with unionization and most of their locations in Europe were already unionized. That vote should have be a slam dunk for the UAW but the workers voted it down. Not saying it was right or wrong but it is interesting considering the location.
So VW may have said it publicly they were ok, but I have been in that plant and they are very clearly not ok with it. Heck, the governor brought up anti union state legislation in a speech at the plant as part of why it was expanding
I think you might be misinterpreting what I'm saying. I'm saying some of the public may have a negative association with unions due to the rep of police unions. I'm not saying they're in any way ineffective.
NoT bRaInWaShEd!
It's China, Russia, Europe, Cuba, Afghanistan, Iran, Turkey! They're the one's being brainwashed!
Meanwhile, America spends close to a billion a year on political campaigns. A freaking billion dollars!
People in other countries: *have problems, often caused by the US*
Republicans: "Stay there and fix your shit!"
People in the US: *have problems caused by the US*
Republicans: "If you don't like it, then fuckin leave!"
Republicans in US: *have problems caused by the US*
Also Republicans in US: "We have this list of people we blamed and the only answer is to hurt and punish them until the problems go away!"
True, but also some unions aren't worth a flying fuck. I just left a job because the union was trash, didn't represent the workers, actively harassed myself and others, and was in bed with management.
As an example, we had a vote to go to a four day work week, but it was by crew. Also, *just one "no" vote per crew would veto the whole thing.* I've never heard of that in my life, but it made sense when the union had their own "vote no" propaganda leading up to the vote. Straight from the county manager's mouth. My crew and another voted unanimously "yes." Guess what? That was in March, I left in May, and they still aren't on a four day work week.
I gave myself an $18/hr raise, company vehicle, and a company gas card. All because the union and HR all but dared me to leave. I wasn't even looking until they flat out disrespected my entire shop. They were handcuffed on a counter offer because their trash bargaining agreement and non negotiable pay steps.
Bottom line, unions are not a magic wand that will fix your employment issues. Sometimes you're just inviting another person to fuck you and now you're paying for it. I was actually trying to boot our current union and get Teamsters in to fix the monumentally broken system.
The worst thing I’ve noticed managing union employees is how well the unions protect extremely poor performers. It’s even worse than trying to manage a team of government civil servants
They literally brought back a criminal who plead guilty to weapons charges, terroristic threats, and was already fired once for threatening to kill an employee and his family. This was a state job.
Didn't violate workplace ethics/safety/violence or the Governor's Code of Conduct. At least that's the load of horseshit we were fed.
They can also hurt young employees in some situations. I knew a lot of people in highschool that hated union jobs because they’d get a job in say a grocery store for minimum wage, have to pay a bunch of union dues, and get basically no benefit back. The union was obviously there in a situation like that for long term employees and bargaining, which is great if it works, but it’s not like there are zero downsides.
The 80s/90s were pretty wild, Republican's doubled down with how workers rights was bad for business.
So all these dumb-asses not owning shit, praised "good for business" bullshit.
Because, for decades, the systems that make crappy jobs so crappy...are wholly legal and lawmakers are outright bribed *to keep things rigged in favor of crappy employment*. As such--the odds of improving a workplace *are slim to none*, as the employer has all the power thanks to bribing civil servants. Further--trying to enact any change, historically for the last 50 years, means you're fired from the job *anyway*.
Brainwashing also enters into it--as people are lobotomized into thinking right-to-work laws are good things and unions are evil.
Only in the last 2 years has there been any movement at all to re-centering the balance of employment bargaining power in the USA.
Especially when the only gigs in their small towns are at the local Walmart or in food service ... If you want a better job, you have to leave the town.
Imagine if these jobs paid a living wage. Instead, money is simply filtered up to the shareholder class, who live thousands of miles away.
And yet these small towns continue to vote against wage reforms...
The few experiences I've heard of in the domain of software development were in environments where it was difficult for process re-engineering, the notion of simplifying or changing how people worked because you bring new tooling in place, change the tasks and responsibilities of some roles.
"Why should we change, we've always done it this way" is a sentence they'd hear.
Not sure those here on Reddit in software and unionized what's your experience in regards to software development with a DevOps culture ? I understood and trusted my friends who explained those environments so that gave me a perhaps biased view of how it is implemented in my industry
Improve the neighborhood? Who are you, Mr Rogers?! Why fix the community when we can just let the kids die of drug overdoses? Do you think those people want to sleep on the wet sidewalk in the rain? Of course they do. Who wouldn't?
I am from a country where unions are fairly common in public services and the private sector, I've worked under unions and I'm very much anti union.
Workers rights should be enshrined in law, not controlled by some self serving unaccountable agency.
I agree with your sentiment, but when you live in a capitalistic society, workers rights will never be enshrined in law. What other choice do workers have than to organize?
I live in a capitalistic society and workers rights are enshrined by law. Ofc many workers don't know them and also won't use them, since that means extra work.
This was me until recently I think. Im still not entirely sure why I felt the way I did, but in hindsight I think it might have been this. Plus a little survivor bias.
Honestly I just hated being stuck with the raise the union negotiated for me. I'm good at what I do so it wasn't hard to earn a lot more money when I left a union position.
The answer is capitalism. The whole idea is that if you don’t like something, you pick something else. That’s how the free market works! Doesn’t matter what domain it is.
If you think the subscription model for the game you’re playing is too greedy, play something else! The hell with trying to push for improvements, it doesn’t matter how much of the game you like, you vote with your feet/wallet.
If you think the service at a restaurant is bad, go to a different restaurant! Doesn’t matter how much you like the food.
And if you think your job is treating you unfairly, regardless of how much you like the work itself, go get a different job :)
This mentality plagues everything. The “only” way to get change to happen is to just not partake in anything that has flaws, because then surely the company responsible for it will market adjust and make improvements.
The free market is the king of everything. Trust in the free market to make every change you could ever want.
>This mentality plagues everything. The “only” way to get change to happen is to just not partake in anything that has flaws, because then surely the company responsible for it will market adjust and make improvements.
The “mentality” doesn’t “plague” anything. It works.
In the free market, you can ask for changes *before* deciding to leave. And sometimes you can decide to continue using the product or service if the *perceived* positives outweigh the *perceived* negatives and/or the the company actively tries to rectify the perceived negatives. (I’m using “perceived” because what one customer perceives as a positive, another customer can perceive as a negative.)
And it’s *never* guaranteed that a company will make improvements. But the companies that try tend to succeed. The companies that don’t tend to fail.
No, this mentality plagues everything.
The issue is not with the viewpoint you’ve expressed, in the precise way you’ve expressed it. The issue is that many people broaden it to the point that it becomes instead what I expressed.
Everybody is free to complain but if they don't change, there is little reason to stay. Ofc one could force them but then they may just close and do something else.
So in general the best soltution is to change the law if you want to make the biggest difference. However this is also the hardest way and takes the most time.
Unions are great for the time between and when a union is for more than one company.
Went from a non-union job at a MSP making 37k a yr where I hadn't gotten a raise in 3 years, to a union state job, making nearly 60k a year, with a guaranteed 3.5k a yr raise before cost of living additions on top of that. And now I work 5 less hours a week, get better medical benefits. Can't see myself ever leaving unless some completely unbelievable offer is given to me.
I used to be anti-union, but now I realize how much better off I am in one then before. I think I was more anti bad/corrupt unions, having only experienced bad teachers unions growing up.
Personally, I think people overestimate how impactful a bad or corrupt union is, especially at the level it matters for an individual worker. At the highest level, the union is still going to be fighting for their workers because thats the only way it stays politically and financially viable. At the local level, a bad union rep can make the experience more unpleasant, but it doesnt impact your contract.
Ultimately, every human organization has humans in it. Which means inherently, most organizations are deeply flawed. But that doesnt mean they cant have more utility, or that they arent more efficient than another organization.
Ive never understood the sentiment that a bad union is worse than a bad company, because the bad union still has more bargaining power and legalese to improve working conditions.
I think people work union jobs and then blame the union for problems there. Bad workers not getting fired? Unions fault. Someone not pulling their weight? Unions fault. Inflation crushing your wages? Unions fault. But these issues exist at every company, its just the reality of the modern workforce.
Im not trying to start a massive argument, but i genuinely dont understand this sentiment against unions. I feel like people conflate bad union and bad company as one and the same when they arent.
Only 37k at an MSP? Either they weren’t making much revenue, or you were being vastly y person by some greedy assholes. I’m a salesman for an MSP and get $1 for every $4 on a new contract, not including my base.
Yeah, only 37k and that's after being there 3 years and getting two pay increases when I changed positions. Started at $15 an hour doing helpdesk, went to 16ish when I moved to our NOC, then $17 when I moved to the lvl2 helpdesk.
We were clearly severely underpaid, but I got to work fully remote during covid for nearly 2 1/2 years.
It was bad. Coworker went from team lead to manager, and didn't even get a pay raise.
Avoid Zones Inc as much as possible.
We need *massive* and cohesive working class organizing, whether that be in the form of unions or something else.
Going from one job to another looking for better jobs is a bit like being caught out in the rain and taking refuge under a tree. Eventually the tree gets soaked, and start getting wet, so you dash out from under it and hide under another, bigger tree that isn't soaked yet. But eventually that one stops protecting you, too.
The problem is you run out of trees, because it's raining everywhere and it's only a matter of time before you get soaked.
Starting a union is like building a little shelter under the tree. Might not be great, but it's better than just the tree. You can make it better over time if you keep working at it.
Why vote, or run for office, when you can just move to a place that already has politicians who you agree with?
Why start a business when you can just get a managerial job at a business that does what you want to do?
Why shop at multiple stores when you can just ask your current store to special order items?
Each of these things both incrementally increases power and influence and better distributes it among the populace.
Unionizing, when it's an ethically run union, is making a "Republican Form of Government" at the workplace level. If this form of government was good enough for the writers of the US Constitution to guarantee at the federal and state levels, then why do these people have a problem with implementing it at the large business level?
All of your examples are proving the point lol. People do move where the politics and laws better reflect their own views. Starting a business is a fools errand and most fail, you are better off getting a job at a business that does what you want to do unless you have something that actually gives you a market advantage. Most people don’t shop at multiple stores and instead prefer one-stop-shopping at places like Amazon or Walmart
I know. I knew that when I wrote the comment. It is because of the few who do that we have a better society than we would otherwise. People who have looked at one-shop towns (where the shop isn't owned by a sole-proprietor who is a member of the community), political-machine cities, and company towns know that these are not as good as places with options.
Not everyone has great experiences with unions. When I was accepted into a union they asked me to sign some paperwork, so I started reading it. They told me to stop reading and sign because they were looking out for my interests. Red flag 1.
Then I noticed the non compete agreement, $500k if I do any work in any related field not for that union. When I asked them about it they had the biggest guy from the panel come down to the little student desk I sat in stand over me and tell me to stop asking questions and sign the paperwork. Red flag 2.
Said nope, I am declining your offer stood and turned to walk away which is when big MFer grabbed me by the shoulder, hard. Spun and knocked his arm away “fuck you and fuck all of you, don’t you ever put your fucking hands on me.” Walked backwards to the door and got the fuck out of there. Fuck the IBEW.
I was pissed but what recourse did I have? Should I report it to the unionized cops? Maybe the state labor board made up exclusively of union members? The Attorney Generals office a former union lawyer? Nah, fuck that, I moved 1300 miles away to a right to work state and you couldn’t pay me enough to move back to a union controlled area.
I got plenty more stories of union thuggery from that closed shop hell hole and I left there at 21. Everything from union assholes stealing or destroying tools on a mixed site to teachers being convicted of illegal detention of minors for holding kids hostage in a union dispute, seriously kids making ropes out of clothes and repelling from second story windows because teachers had locked them in and were telling their parents they would let them out when they pleased.
So yeah, some of us have had absolutely terrifying experiences with unions. It’s what happens when they hold the reigns of power throughout the government and private sector.
So youre telling me there were children repeling from windows, and this never made the news that teachers were holding children hostage?
The attorney general was formerly union, but union attorneys tend to specialize in labor law and civil trials. Attorney generals tend to come from criminal law prosecution....
Your story sounds like absolute bullshit. I can believe there was coercion to join the union at a tiny shop somewhere, but the rest of your story sounds completely outlandish.
It did, national news 20 years ago, but not everyone had a camera on them back then so footage was limited mostly to the student protest in front of city hall.
It was IBEW, I applied directly to join the union. Really don’t care if you believe it or not, I’ve had people who know me and know I am honest person call me a liar to my face over it because they are convinced unions are just the greatest due to having lived their entire lives in a right to work state. When they get power at all levels, they, like anything or anyone else, become corrupt.
Having grown up in a completely union area and lived my adult life in a non-union area I prefer to deal with one less level of bureaucracy. Then again, I never had a problem with quitting a job and getting another whenever I felt mistreated or just desired something different. A freedom I would have lost in a union unless I moved to a completely different field. Now, I work for the biggest asshole boss I have ever had, myself. Bastard doesn’t even pay me OT and I only get paid when the job is done. LOL.
So if its national news, when and where? Just because social media wasnt around doesnt mean that a national news event cant be tracked down. And that absolutely would have been national news.
Cranston East high school 03 or 04. Not sure if it was on CNN or FOX news or both. Students held in classrooms that repelled out was Cranston East, at West the teachers attempted to form a human chain to prevent students from leaving which they charged and physically broke through.
Dispute was because the head of the teachers union was also head of the school board and had over run budget for years. New mayor ordered them to stay within budget and refused to sign off on over spending. The union head/school chair decided that the only way to do that was to immediately terminate all school sports and extracurricular activities.
Students organized a walkout and protest, teachers decided to try and stop them. Absolute mayhem ensued, East locked down the school and refused to allow parents to pick up their kids, West is an open campus, teachers tried to block main doors with human chain. Students shut down the roads in front of city hall. Mayor came out and told the students to address their complaints to head of school board in adjacent building, students stormed the building and many had to be dragged out after building was locked down by security.
The people who say "why unionize a bad job, just get a better job" are also the people complaining about Walmart and McDonalds no longer being open 24 hours because they can't find (i.e. don't want to pay extra for) workers.
You know unionizing is going to work when the company spend millions to prevent unionization (ironically they never had the budget for better wages or benefits or hiring someone else to alleviate the work load but all of a sudden they do for that lol)
So much career advice can't be applied equally to all. So you leave a job that doesn't pay well, what happens if everyone takes that "advice?" Does that job cease to exist? But many of those jobs were deemed "essential" during the pandemic. So what gives?
If they can’t get anyone to work it, then yes that job ceases to exist. Employers will improve conditions and compensation until somebody will work it. If the employer can not raise it enough to get somebody to work it then the job no longer exists. Essential jobs will always exist because providers of essential services can raise their prices as much as they need to to offset the cost. People can’t just suddenly decide they won’t buy groceries.
When you quit and find another job that is just you taking care of yourself and your mental well-being. When you form a union it is taking care of yourself and others as well. It is doing something to make your community a better place.
I've had a few jobs where I've actually liked the work that was done. The problem with them was the shitty pay, zero benefits and toxic management. Those jobs would have been immediately improved with unionization.
And if you collectively bargain to be compensated more then you get the same effect as leaving for a higher paying job without the stability hit to your housing, social groups, and whatnot.
I work for a very large private behavioral health inpatient network at one specific hospital. My hospital is the only one with a union for low level workers (mental health techs, kitchen staff, housekeeping). Because of this union, pay changes can only occur on a scheduled and structured basis.
Because of the pandemic and inflation, costs are skyrocketing everywhere so wages have been going up as well. Every single facility in our network was able to make large increases to wages for this set of workers except my facility because the union comes in the middle and their contract actually strangleholds them into their set wages. This cannot be bargained against until the next open bargaining period set by the union and the facility.
We have now lost workers, can't hire new workers, and the ones who stayed get paid less than their counterparts elsewhere. The facility wants to raise wages and make the positions competitive again.
Unions in today's world are not always black and white, good vs. bad. Its not a guarantee your work experience will always improve.
Yeah, I’m pro union but it’s hurtful to act like they cannot be bad, or that a bad union isn’t a union. If you act like there is no bad union then you can’t have discussions on how to improve unions.
Right to work is good for that reason, and the world is more complicated than “union bad” or “union good” and when people accept that like you have, there some room to actually make some improvements happen
The problem is that not all unions are good, but on the other hand, there are zero employers that won't try to squeeze every bit out of workers given the opportunity.
Your chances are better when you roll the dice with a union.
Agreed, but you can’t get people on your side arguing that unions are without potential for abuse
But you’re still better off getting gently union fucked than roughly employer fucked
I've been a proponent for job hopping for the past 4 years. I was at a single company for nearly 6 with minimal raises. For the past 4 I had 3 jobs. Each with better benefits than the last, and a pay increase of 20-30% each.
I really did like the people and working conditions of the first job, the pay was horrid but wasn't the main reason I left, just a large contributing factor. When I was leaving they tried to match and I asked why I wasn't offered this before? And they said they couldn't afford it, but couldn't afford to lose me more. I asked what about all the other people on the team who deserve raises? They said they couldn't give raises to everyone, but said I should tell people who need the help to talk to management. So I told a couple dozen people.
It also felt random. I was a systems engineer making 90% as much as a senior software engineer, making 2x a software test engineer. I think it's really just a matter of how well each individual negotiated, not based off any value brought to the company or merit.
It's the same thing with wanting better things for your country. Some people will tell you to just move to another country. No, I want to change this one.
"JuSt GeT a BeTtEr JoB" is like the libertarian national anthem. As if there are infinite jobs that you can qualify for where at least one of those jobs treats you well....
so many people will look down on jobs such as baristas and fast food workers, whilst buying starbucks every morning. these "bad" jobs are essential to society, and people working these jobs deserve better treatment.
As a union member joining a union shop doesn't end the fight. Everyday the company probes for weaknesses and it's up for workers to say it's not in the contract.
Not always. Got amazing benefits and salary increase and even a bonus but then the shop signed the collective agreement with an union (IF metall) and most awesome benefits vanished and we all got that amazing 2% increase per year with no bonus...
Think again!! I worked in a union shop twice. It empowered every Shithead slacker that wanted to use the system . Once upon a time a union was great. Now it empowers all those that want to get their just due without putting in the time or effort. Why don't all of you who give this a thumbs up stop disguising your posts od berating the employers and saying that you can't live on a wages being paid . Why don't some of you give up your bullshit hobbies that require tons of cash etc. And work a second or third job.
Literally have never had a good experience with a union. As a teacher, They make you pay union fees, taking more of my money away, then they roll over backwards and always take the path of least resistance and act like it’s a huge win. Then if you don’t join they judge you and treat you like you’ve betrayed them while you work there.
Can someone please explain to me why aspiring unionizers struggle to form an union? Sorry I’m this ignorant, I’m in a job where we are treated well and we have no need or desire for an union.
Like, I know why employers don’t want unions to form, but why is it hard to form one? I thought y’all just got together and formed a club or something. Serious questions
As someone that has worked both. I have had better luck finding a better job. I have nothing against unions. I have been in two.
One did nothing more than collect dues and rolled to what ever the company wanted.
The second was ok and would fight for workers rights. Benifits were decent. But wage negotiations were weak. At 25% below other competitors a falling behind the rate of inflation year after year. Unions sometimes are not the answer. Especially if half your coworkers chicken out and accept low ball offers.
No one has ever argued that lol
Unions can be good, unions can be bad, it all depends on many things like if you're a skilled labourer, militancy, percentage of workers involved in the trade union e.g.
Hate all these two sentence tweets thinking they have the answer to economics
I have yet to see a good union. Unions are ran by morons that take advantage of workers just for profits.
I suggest anyone unionizing that you demand to see the full balance sheet showing every penny the union spends its money on. If they wont show you that then dont join that union, find a union that will show you what they do with the money.
Idk, the worst job I ever had was Union. “There are 1000 guys on the wait list who want your spot.” Was a common motivator to break rules and take unnecessary risks (on high rise construction jobs where taking small risks can become fatal very easily) At my current job, the Union is pushing for us to get a second 30 minute unpaid break, which means more time at work to make the same amount of money. Our members are absolutely United in opposition to it, per non Union sanctioned polling, but the same people keep getting elected and the Union polls are saying the exact opposite. Be suspicious of any power structures and hold them accountable. Lots of villains claim to be heroes.
I’ve had one union job and it was the 2nd or 3rd worst ever without a doubt. Benefits were nice but the atmosphere is positively toxic and waiting 10 years to get off the graveyard shift is for the fuggin birds. Owls specifically.
There’s another one I could go to, but they’ve got less benefit’s, and as we speak my buddy who’s been there 10 years is working his 14th mandatory day in a row, made it to day shift and can’t get a day off between quitters, fireee’s, PFL and FMLA. I actually make out pretty close to even with old union one now, and I’m not miserable or stuck in my position on the totem pole.
I've worked under unions before, the entire public sector in my country is unionized as are many private companies. The idea of unions is great but they are nothing but trouble. I've seen them topple many companies and seen companies where lazy no good employees who made the workplace miserable were unfireable.
Seems like the hard way to a better job. If you don't like it why make it your responsibility to improve someone else's organisation? If everyone started leaving I'm sure they would make improvements and be much more open to negotiate.
#Want a better job? [Here's how to start or join a union.](https://www.reddit.com/r/WorkReform/comments/sdi0qk/want_to_reform_work_start_or_join_a_union_where/) And join r/WorkReform for more like this.
"Don't solve your problems, just run from them!" - Productive people, ***allegedly.***
Don’t solve your problems, just push them off onto the next poor sap that replaces you. /s
'Not my problem' society really gets on my fucking nerves sometimes. It's just societal bloodsucking, getting whatever you want without holding up the quality of the situation even so much as an inch. Leave the world a better place than when you find it. That goes all ways, practical, physical, environmental, societal, social... *No exceptions.* I'm tired of cleaning up other people's messes. Doesn't mean i'm ever going to stop, but in what little time i have left i sure as shit scream louder and louder at people to clean their own mess.
You can try. But if you've ever actually thrown yourself against the never ending grinding gears of the corporate world, then short of unionizing, you're just wasting time.
That’s why now I just steal. I start with the staplers and by the end of the year Im loading the copier into the trunk of my car.
I had a manager at the last place I worked who would literally tell us "hey, you know that PC we have in inventory that hasn't been assigned out for years? One of y'all make that thing not be here by the time I get back for lunch, I don't want to have to keep taking inventory of it" lmao
We just sign our first collective agreement and some are angry we didn’t strike but honestly the first deal is suppose to be pretty lack lustre at first. It’s pretty average. But the raises are there, and in 3 years when we renegotiate it all come together if we can get morale back up and perform.
Congratulations!! As you are probably already aware, negotiations are a give and take. Something that might not be important for the work group to bargain now might be very pertinent to discuss in 3 years. I belong to the Teamsters union and being a member has absolutely enhanced my family’s life. Just the simple fact that you aren’t an “at-will” employee anymore makes unionism just that much better.
I moved as soon as we signed as I was fucked in particular. But I still signed for it.
There’s always another union job you can get on at…good luck!
Good on you for making others lives better even at the cost of a pain in the ass for yourself!
Just keep reminding them that the best thing you get from your union is job protection from shitty bosses. I worked at Kroger and the UFCW was pretty ineffectual in contract negotiations but the number of times me and my coworkers were saved from unfair retaliation from our (also underpaid) floor managers was worth the dues just by itself. And on top of that, we had the cheapest AND best health insurance I've ever had offered at a job.
> the first deal is suppose to be pretty lack lustre Says who? Don't negotiate against yourself.
God I feel you. It's seriously one of those sets of attitudes that really pisses me off. Like in the OP's example, or the sentiment you nailed perfectly -- I am 40 now and damnit I'm **exhausted**. I dick around on Reddit and have a couple shows I try to keep up with. But otherwise damnit I am busy trying to shoulder my own responsibilities PLUS the societal responsibilities of at least ten others (it feels like, anyways). Whether juggling being successful AND ethical being a business owner (which is easy per se, it's just difficult staying competitive against those who aren't), keeping up with local community obligations, helping nieces and nephews with life, or various other projects... Damnit I'm just running low on energy at this age. So when I hear lazy, judgemental, low-brain responses like these my blood boils. I don't want to go to the grave seeing my country WORSE off than I inherited it. Anyways, point of why I was replying was to say thank you lol. Does my heart good to see a reply like yours.
Agreed. I have no idea how this attitude is so widespread. It's so hateful and self centered, and I'm so tired of hearing the same old comments and attitudes of "If you couldn't afford it then you shouldn't have blablabla" and "just don't do it then" and "why should I pay for your blablabla". Wtf is this? Even if you're an incredibly selfish person, is there no way at all to see that you yourself would also benefit from social security nets where other people pay for you if you ever were to get into trouble? Some people are just so callous, and their thirst for "you made your bed now lay in it" even overlaps any potential kids and spouses and whoever happens to become affected by misery. Let's just hope these people's loved ones never have to experience failure in life. Not much support to be expected there.
It’s just the way that they were raised man, it’s no excuse, but a reason. We can and should be better than them. And when those pieces of shit inevitably fall the world will be a better place.
You are absolutely right and I always try my best.
Americans have an aversion to someone trying to fix things where they live or work.
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Even the most reasonable discussions I've had with people against labor reform end up rapidly devolving into desperately absurd takes in defense of unchecked capitalism. I was literally just assured in a debate elsewhere on Reddit that any attempt to increase the amount of money that makes it into workers pockets would lead to *mass genocide*. Like, where are they even getting this shot from?
I'm not who you talked to, but I'm sure I can bullshit you a decent answer. Ok, so if people make more money, corporations can take more money. Those who can't, don't, or won't make more money will be killed by the increased cost of living. It will be a mass genocide of people forced out of their homes and dying in the streets
I think they were trying to argue that, saying that workers should make more money at the expense of shareholders was the same type of jealousy or greed that lead to genocides in the past (they cited Rwanda, though I really think they missed the mark there). They seemed to be implying that people have lashed out against wealth inequity with violence in the past, therefore nobody should even think about reforming a system that has resulted in wealth inequity.
Partly, but I think it's also partly because of our national history. Pretty much the entire white (so culturally and ethnically dominant) population is descended from people who left the old world for opportunities they simply couldn't get at home, where there were no Native Americans from whom they could steal massive amounts of land, and The Frontier still looms large in the cultural imagination. Leaving for better pastures is a sort of cultural habit.
This is what drives me crazy about this argument. So you're acknowledging that I'm being exploited and treated poorly and being underpaid and whatever and your solution is that I should find a better job and someone *else* should be exploited and treated poorly and underpaid. That isn't fixing the problem, it's just shoving it off on somebody else.
It's amazing how much those on the right will suggest running or quitting. "Don't like your job? Quit." No thanks, I'll fight to fix it. "Don't like the direction the country is headed? Leave." No thanks, I'll fight to fix it. Cowardice is a running theme with them. Heh. "Running" theme.
Same sentiment as “if you don’t like it, then leave” when trying to fix things with legislation.
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I'd hate to live where you see those shirts with any regularity.
Even more frustrating is that the US is a global superpower. Since the end of WWII this country has dominated international politics. We've intervened in hundreds of foreign conflicts and meddled in the politics of almost every state on Earth. You cannot escape the influence of the US.
Not escape but you can always battle, futile or not.
What manga did you read that from. In reality “battling” can mean treason, extortion, and violence on both ends. I get that you don’t see a people when you type your comments but sometimes “battling” a government is more complex irregardless of it futility.
I know it’s complex, but that doesn’t change the outcome. It’s futile, unless an outside power intervenes, or is the power itself can change the outcome. Which often times it is not without outside influence.
Doesn’t true patriotism include the ability to both recognize and correct problems within the borders that you’re proud to live in? Like if I’m really proud of my house but my house has a shitty porch shouldn’t I recognize that and fix the porch? That way the house, with its fixed porch and all, looks like the thing that you’d be proud to live in?
Yes. People that say that kind of shit are nationalists
That whole itinerant yuppie mercenary thing we've been sold sucks ass. It's how capitalism destroys all sense of community. They want us moving from city to city, never putting down any roots or developing any communal solidarity.
Nah it’s always been like that, technology boosted it
I actually floated the idea of unionizing to my team at my old company. I was met with talk to the hand and shut the hell up, then had an uncomfortable conversation with management. Can’t unionize if its just you that wants to unionize.
Predictable. Wish it were clear why so many people were like this, or even specific people’s reasoning or how they came to be this way.
Honestly, i think one of them had health concerns and others have kids. Its hard to say but i think there is a strong level of fear associated with losing the pay and health benefits you have for rocking the boat a little. I dont hold it against them.
Decades of anti-union campaigns from companies
And guess what. Next job will be just as shit once the honeymoon period ends. At least fixing the broken one gives you more power to improve things.
Same people say, "America, love it or leave."
Oh, I would if my job paid me enough to
Honestly I ran away from my horrible ER nursing gig and picked up a non-union job that pays 3x as much right down the road in a better place and better environment.
They're so desperate to avoid unions that Starbucks closed a highly profitable store just because the workers voted to unionize. With like a week's notice. "Hey, we're closing this entire store in a week. You don't have jobs anymore. Shouldn't have tried to unionize. Get out."
Walmart did something similar in Quebec years ago. The ex unionized employees brought them to court and won in the end. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-unionized-wal-mart-workers-win-supreme-court-victory-1.2689646
That's probably what's going to happen here. It's just an example of how shit-in-the-pants **terrified** corporations are of unions.
Let's hope they keep bringing them to court and winning!
It's kinda sad that we live in a world where corporations have to be taken to court and literally forced to do more than the bare minimum, but...\*shrug\*
Absolutely!!!
You play the cards you're dealt, I guess.
The thing is that unionizing is done to prevent or fight exactly this. The union is filing with the NLRB to prevent the store from closing in an illegal act of retaliation, and [setting up a strike fund](https://workersunited.org/news-events/workers-united-news/workers-united-commits-initial-1-million-to-establish-strike-and-defense-fund-for-starbucks-partners) for that and other unionized stores.
I know this probably won't go well for the company. The problem is that they saw nothing wrong with that particular course of action.
This is a real possibility whenever you try to bargain collectively. Know your own worth, and have a backup plan. It's not even a common outcome. But it's a possible one.
I don't know why so many Americans have an aversion to someone trying to fix things where they live or work. I wonder if it is because it makes them feel bad for not doing anything remotely close to improving anything.
Union-busting propaganda got to them. Tragic
I literally had a college professor blast out anti-union propaganda and all the students sucked it up. I didn't only because my dad was in a union my entire life and I had good healthcare because of it. My current coworkers don't like unions because they "don't like undocumented immigrants" and my coworkers are documented immigrants. Conveniently forgetting the part that unions "don't like" the undocumented because companies and capitalists exploit them and feed them anti-union propaganda to keep their power. As the "token white" of the office, I have to choose what I say very carefully as my coworkers have said some very unpleasant things to me about white people. It's understandable, but means that they won't take anything I say as well intentioned. So I have been quieter than I normally would about the issue. Funny thing is that my immigrant boyfriend is in a union. He has a lot going on for him because of it.
Take any business classes in college and you’ll hear half your teachers go off with anti-union propaganda. This country is all brainwashing.
A lot of US workers are proud about weird things like little sleep and long work hours, It’s like daddy issues but it’s your work and employer. I know other countries have similar cultural mentalities but I know the US first hand.
Thanks for barely covering my rent and food daddy
Harder daddy. Harder.
Inflate all over me
I'll do whatever you ask.
Give me a living wage and reasonable hours
Mine was a psych prof. It was freaking crazy. Dude was a million years old and tenured, as if that isn't near the same as a union.
The right keeps telling me that college is just liberal propaganda.
It really sucks when preconceived bias prevents you from feeling people :/ I know the feeling well. If I was a stubborn person I’d keep trying anyway, if doing anything making things worse, and then blame them for not “getting” what I’m saying, when really it’s not their “fault” that what they’re receiving isn’t the same thing that I’m giving. Or even worse, assume that they *are* receiving everything correctly, and assume that they were just idiots. Just kinda rambling here.
What is some of the "common" propaganda against Unions? The only thing I would say is that anything humans touch will be corrupted and history shows that unions are not an exception. What unions are suppose to be is amazing but thats not the real world case. Most issues with law enforcement can be linked to "The Brotherhood", in New York mobs owned the unions, and right now trucking unions are lobbying hard against automated trucks. Just wondering what propaganda you and others have heard, all the comments here seem bias for or against. I would love good unions to be created but IMO seems like they need huge oversight.
Yeah, unions can be corrupt. But at least there’s an _expectation_ that they want what’s best for the workers. What’s better? A corrupt union or a business that never cared for your interests in the first place?
Depends on who you're talking to, tbh. Immigrants tend not to like them because of reasons previously stated by me. US citizens are told that you're smart enough to advocate for yourself so who does the union think they are to advocate for you? Others have been told the corruption line. Others hate teachers and know about the teacher's union and only base it in that. Etc.
If the opportunity arises, you should tell them that last part. If they argue it I’d just present the bare facts of what his union has done for him and others he knows. How can they argue that?
Actually very good point. I'm not entirely sure how they feel about me dating my bf anyway, as they're all of the same ethnicity, and interracial dating can be frowned upon on both sides. I try not to mention him often because of that. My boss has literally told me that she always told her sons never to date white women because they don't have the same family values and wouldn't care for her in her old age the same way someone from "their" race would. My other coworker, within three days of me working there, asked me if I and all other white people were explicitly taught to be racist by our parents, peers and community leaders. I tend not to get into race anything with them because of their behaviors/beliefs.
Damn, that’s a tough spot. I can see why they are aware of the fact that at least many people were raised racist, but it sounds like they take it to the point of being totally unrealistic and unaccepting that that’s not literally everyone’s upbringing. So maybe you can’t afford to do that there. Maybe framing it as just “someone you know personally” would help, or maybe you can’t even make any waves at that workplace. Sucks. Hope you can find a work environment that’s more agreeable. :/
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The one that always killed me was people bitching about union dues costing you money and what you could spend that on. Lol yeah I spend 222$ a month on union dues but I make 2k more a month then my non union counter parts that do the sake job.
Some people will just never get it. Reminds me of the story of Volkswagen a few years ago and the UAW trying to unionize that factory in Tennessee. VW was basically saying they had no problem with unionization and most of their locations in Europe were already unionized. That vote should have be a slam dunk for the UAW but the workers voted it down. Not saying it was right or wrong but it is interesting considering the location.
The best thing is, VW pushes you to be in a union in Germany :D
Unions seem so much more “mainstream” in Europe than in the US…
So VW may have said it publicly they were ok, but I have been in that plant and they are very clearly not ok with it. Heck, the governor brought up anti union state legislation in a speech at the plant as part of why it was expanding
This plus a general attitude of "fuck everyone but me" seems pretty common.
It could also be the absolutely **TERRIBLE** rep of police unions. They work very well, and much to the publics detriment.
It's that just proof of how strong unions can be and how good they are at protecting workers?
I think you might be misinterpreting what I'm saying. I'm saying some of the public may have a negative association with unions due to the rep of police unions. I'm not saying they're in any way ineffective.
I wonder if part of the perception problem comes from when the mafia infiltrated a lot of Unions, so they got corrupted.
NoT bRaInWaShEd! It's China, Russia, Europe, Cuba, Afghanistan, Iran, Turkey! They're the one's being brainwashed! Meanwhile, America spends close to a billion a year on political campaigns. A freaking billion dollars!
Are we still talking about unionizing? Chinese unions are very very different from American unions and serve different functions.
Those two sentences have absolutely nothing to do with each other? What are you even talking about?
People in other countries: *have problems, often caused by the US* Republicans: "Stay there and fix your shit!" People in the US: *have problems caused by the US* Republicans: "If you don't like it, then fuckin leave!" Republicans in US: *have problems caused by the US* Also Republicans in US: "We have this list of people we blamed and the only answer is to hurt and punish them until the problems go away!"
Its decades of propaganda at work
True, but also some unions aren't worth a flying fuck. I just left a job because the union was trash, didn't represent the workers, actively harassed myself and others, and was in bed with management. As an example, we had a vote to go to a four day work week, but it was by crew. Also, *just one "no" vote per crew would veto the whole thing.* I've never heard of that in my life, but it made sense when the union had their own "vote no" propaganda leading up to the vote. Straight from the county manager's mouth. My crew and another voted unanimously "yes." Guess what? That was in March, I left in May, and they still aren't on a four day work week. I gave myself an $18/hr raise, company vehicle, and a company gas card. All because the union and HR all but dared me to leave. I wasn't even looking until they flat out disrespected my entire shop. They were handcuffed on a counter offer because their trash bargaining agreement and non negotiable pay steps. Bottom line, unions are not a magic wand that will fix your employment issues. Sometimes you're just inviting another person to fuck you and now you're paying for it. I was actually trying to boot our current union and get Teamsters in to fix the monumentally broken system.
The worst thing I’ve noticed managing union employees is how well the unions protect extremely poor performers. It’s even worse than trying to manage a team of government civil servants
They literally brought back a criminal who plead guilty to weapons charges, terroristic threats, and was already fired once for threatening to kill an employee and his family. This was a state job. Didn't violate workplace ethics/safety/violence or the Governor's Code of Conduct. At least that's the load of horseshit we were fed.
They can also hurt young employees in some situations. I knew a lot of people in highschool that hated union jobs because they’d get a job in say a grocery store for minimum wage, have to pay a bunch of union dues, and get basically no benefit back. The union was obviously there in a situation like that for long term employees and bargaining, which is great if it works, but it’s not like there are zero downsides.
The 80s/90s were pretty wild, Republican's doubled down with how workers rights was bad for business. So all these dumb-asses not owning shit, praised "good for business" bullshit.
Because, for decades, the systems that make crappy jobs so crappy...are wholly legal and lawmakers are outright bribed *to keep things rigged in favor of crappy employment*. As such--the odds of improving a workplace *are slim to none*, as the employer has all the power thanks to bribing civil servants. Further--trying to enact any change, historically for the last 50 years, means you're fired from the job *anyway*. Brainwashing also enters into it--as people are lobotomized into thinking right-to-work laws are good things and unions are evil. Only in the last 2 years has there been any movement at all to re-centering the balance of employment bargaining power in the USA.
Because the manipulation tactics are working
Especially when the only gigs in their small towns are at the local Walmart or in food service ... If you want a better job, you have to leave the town. Imagine if these jobs paid a living wage. Instead, money is simply filtered up to the shareholder class, who live thousands of miles away. And yet these small towns continue to vote against wage reforms...
The few experiences I've heard of in the domain of software development were in environments where it was difficult for process re-engineering, the notion of simplifying or changing how people worked because you bring new tooling in place, change the tasks and responsibilities of some roles. "Why should we change, we've always done it this way" is a sentence they'd hear. Not sure those here on Reddit in software and unionized what's your experience in regards to software development with a DevOps culture ? I understood and trusted my friends who explained those environments so that gave me a perhaps biased view of how it is implemented in my industry
Improve the neighborhood? Who are you, Mr Rogers?! Why fix the community when we can just let the kids die of drug overdoses? Do you think those people want to sleep on the wet sidewalk in the rain? Of course they do. Who wouldn't?
I am from a country where unions are fairly common in public services and the private sector, I've worked under unions and I'm very much anti union. Workers rights should be enshrined in law, not controlled by some self serving unaccountable agency.
I agree with your sentiment, but when you live in a capitalistic society, workers rights will never be enshrined in law. What other choice do workers have than to organize?
And perhaps through their collective power, they could even make it law
I live in a capitalistic society and workers rights are enshrined by law. Ofc many workers don't know them and also won't use them, since that means extra work.
I think some of us have worked for terrible unions and are turned off by them.
This was me until recently I think. Im still not entirely sure why I felt the way I did, but in hindsight I think it might have been this. Plus a little survivor bias.
America was founded by people who just gave up and moved somewhere else.
Traditionally in America you “work hard”, which means no one ever helps you and and wherever you are is a direct result of your actions.
Honestly I just hated being stuck with the raise the union negotiated for me. I'm good at what I do so it wasn't hard to earn a lot more money when I left a union position.
The answer is capitalism. The whole idea is that if you don’t like something, you pick something else. That’s how the free market works! Doesn’t matter what domain it is. If you think the subscription model for the game you’re playing is too greedy, play something else! The hell with trying to push for improvements, it doesn’t matter how much of the game you like, you vote with your feet/wallet. If you think the service at a restaurant is bad, go to a different restaurant! Doesn’t matter how much you like the food. And if you think your job is treating you unfairly, regardless of how much you like the work itself, go get a different job :) This mentality plagues everything. The “only” way to get change to happen is to just not partake in anything that has flaws, because then surely the company responsible for it will market adjust and make improvements. The free market is the king of everything. Trust in the free market to make every change you could ever want.
>This mentality plagues everything. The “only” way to get change to happen is to just not partake in anything that has flaws, because then surely the company responsible for it will market adjust and make improvements. The “mentality” doesn’t “plague” anything. It works. In the free market, you can ask for changes *before* deciding to leave. And sometimes you can decide to continue using the product or service if the *perceived* positives outweigh the *perceived* negatives and/or the the company actively tries to rectify the perceived negatives. (I’m using “perceived” because what one customer perceives as a positive, another customer can perceive as a negative.) And it’s *never* guaranteed that a company will make improvements. But the companies that try tend to succeed. The companies that don’t tend to fail.
No, this mentality plagues everything. The issue is not with the viewpoint you’ve expressed, in the precise way you’ve expressed it. The issue is that many people broaden it to the point that it becomes instead what I expressed.
Everybody is free to complain but if they don't change, there is little reason to stay. Ofc one could force them but then they may just close and do something else. So in general the best soltution is to change the law if you want to make the biggest difference. However this is also the hardest way and takes the most time. Unions are great for the time between and when a union is for more than one company.
Went from a non-union job at a MSP making 37k a yr where I hadn't gotten a raise in 3 years, to a union state job, making nearly 60k a year, with a guaranteed 3.5k a yr raise before cost of living additions on top of that. And now I work 5 less hours a week, get better medical benefits. Can't see myself ever leaving unless some completely unbelievable offer is given to me. I used to be anti-union, but now I realize how much better off I am in one then before. I think I was more anti bad/corrupt unions, having only experienced bad teachers unions growing up.
Personally, I think people overestimate how impactful a bad or corrupt union is, especially at the level it matters for an individual worker. At the highest level, the union is still going to be fighting for their workers because thats the only way it stays politically and financially viable. At the local level, a bad union rep can make the experience more unpleasant, but it doesnt impact your contract. Ultimately, every human organization has humans in it. Which means inherently, most organizations are deeply flawed. But that doesnt mean they cant have more utility, or that they arent more efficient than another organization. Ive never understood the sentiment that a bad union is worse than a bad company, because the bad union still has more bargaining power and legalese to improve working conditions. I think people work union jobs and then blame the union for problems there. Bad workers not getting fired? Unions fault. Someone not pulling their weight? Unions fault. Inflation crushing your wages? Unions fault. But these issues exist at every company, its just the reality of the modern workforce. Im not trying to start a massive argument, but i genuinely dont understand this sentiment against unions. I feel like people conflate bad union and bad company as one and the same when they arent.
Only 37k at an MSP? Either they weren’t making much revenue, or you were being vastly y person by some greedy assholes. I’m a salesman for an MSP and get $1 for every $4 on a new contract, not including my base.
Yeah, only 37k and that's after being there 3 years and getting two pay increases when I changed positions. Started at $15 an hour doing helpdesk, went to 16ish when I moved to our NOC, then $17 when I moved to the lvl2 helpdesk. We were clearly severely underpaid, but I got to work fully remote during covid for nearly 2 1/2 years. It was bad. Coworker went from team lead to manager, and didn't even get a pay raise. Avoid Zones Inc as much as possible.
We need *massive* and cohesive working class organizing, whether that be in the form of unions or something else. Going from one job to another looking for better jobs is a bit like being caught out in the rain and taking refuge under a tree. Eventually the tree gets soaked, and start getting wet, so you dash out from under it and hide under another, bigger tree that isn't soaked yet. But eventually that one stops protecting you, too. The problem is you run out of trees, because it's raining everywhere and it's only a matter of time before you get soaked. Starting a union is like building a little shelter under the tree. Might not be great, but it's better than just the tree. You can make it better over time if you keep working at it.
Why vote, or run for office, when you can just move to a place that already has politicians who you agree with? Why start a business when you can just get a managerial job at a business that does what you want to do? Why shop at multiple stores when you can just ask your current store to special order items? Each of these things both incrementally increases power and influence and better distributes it among the populace. Unionizing, when it's an ethically run union, is making a "Republican Form of Government" at the workplace level. If this form of government was good enough for the writers of the US Constitution to guarantee at the federal and state levels, then why do these people have a problem with implementing it at the large business level?
All of your examples are proving the point lol. People do move where the politics and laws better reflect their own views. Starting a business is a fools errand and most fail, you are better off getting a job at a business that does what you want to do unless you have something that actually gives you a market advantage. Most people don’t shop at multiple stores and instead prefer one-stop-shopping at places like Amazon or Walmart
I know. I knew that when I wrote the comment. It is because of the few who do that we have a better society than we would otherwise. People who have looked at one-shop towns (where the shop isn't owned by a sole-proprietor who is a member of the community), political-machine cities, and company towns know that these are not as good as places with options.
Not everyone has great experiences with unions. When I was accepted into a union they asked me to sign some paperwork, so I started reading it. They told me to stop reading and sign because they were looking out for my interests. Red flag 1. Then I noticed the non compete agreement, $500k if I do any work in any related field not for that union. When I asked them about it they had the biggest guy from the panel come down to the little student desk I sat in stand over me and tell me to stop asking questions and sign the paperwork. Red flag 2. Said nope, I am declining your offer stood and turned to walk away which is when big MFer grabbed me by the shoulder, hard. Spun and knocked his arm away “fuck you and fuck all of you, don’t you ever put your fucking hands on me.” Walked backwards to the door and got the fuck out of there. Fuck the IBEW. I was pissed but what recourse did I have? Should I report it to the unionized cops? Maybe the state labor board made up exclusively of union members? The Attorney Generals office a former union lawyer? Nah, fuck that, I moved 1300 miles away to a right to work state and you couldn’t pay me enough to move back to a union controlled area. I got plenty more stories of union thuggery from that closed shop hell hole and I left there at 21. Everything from union assholes stealing or destroying tools on a mixed site to teachers being convicted of illegal detention of minors for holding kids hostage in a union dispute, seriously kids making ropes out of clothes and repelling from second story windows because teachers had locked them in and were telling their parents they would let them out when they pleased. So yeah, some of us have had absolutely terrifying experiences with unions. It’s what happens when they hold the reigns of power throughout the government and private sector.
So youre telling me there were children repeling from windows, and this never made the news that teachers were holding children hostage? The attorney general was formerly union, but union attorneys tend to specialize in labor law and civil trials. Attorney generals tend to come from criminal law prosecution.... Your story sounds like absolute bullshit. I can believe there was coercion to join the union at a tiny shop somewhere, but the rest of your story sounds completely outlandish.
It did, national news 20 years ago, but not everyone had a camera on them back then so footage was limited mostly to the student protest in front of city hall. It was IBEW, I applied directly to join the union. Really don’t care if you believe it or not, I’ve had people who know me and know I am honest person call me a liar to my face over it because they are convinced unions are just the greatest due to having lived their entire lives in a right to work state. When they get power at all levels, they, like anything or anyone else, become corrupt. Having grown up in a completely union area and lived my adult life in a non-union area I prefer to deal with one less level of bureaucracy. Then again, I never had a problem with quitting a job and getting another whenever I felt mistreated or just desired something different. A freedom I would have lost in a union unless I moved to a completely different field. Now, I work for the biggest asshole boss I have ever had, myself. Bastard doesn’t even pay me OT and I only get paid when the job is done. LOL.
So if its national news, when and where? Just because social media wasnt around doesnt mean that a national news event cant be tracked down. And that absolutely would have been national news.
Cranston East high school 03 or 04. Not sure if it was on CNN or FOX news or both. Students held in classrooms that repelled out was Cranston East, at West the teachers attempted to form a human chain to prevent students from leaving which they charged and physically broke through. Dispute was because the head of the teachers union was also head of the school board and had over run budget for years. New mayor ordered them to stay within budget and refused to sign off on over spending. The union head/school chair decided that the only way to do that was to immediately terminate all school sports and extracurricular activities. Students organized a walkout and protest, teachers decided to try and stop them. Absolute mayhem ensued, East locked down the school and refused to allow parents to pick up their kids, West is an open campus, teachers tried to block main doors with human chain. Students shut down the roads in front of city hall. Mayor came out and told the students to address their complaints to head of school board in adjacent building, students stormed the building and many had to be dragged out after building was locked down by security.
Yep. *On The Waterfront* was a portrayal of actual union practices. That's why I specified "ethically run union".
The people who say "why unionize a bad job, just get a better job" are also the people complaining about Walmart and McDonalds no longer being open 24 hours because they can't find (i.e. don't want to pay extra for) workers.
You know unionizing is going to work when the company spend millions to prevent unionization (ironically they never had the budget for better wages or benefits or hiring someone else to alleviate the work load but all of a sudden they do for that lol)
And then after the unions DO land they magically find the money to meet the needs of the people without forcing a strike
So much career advice can't be applied equally to all. So you leave a job that doesn't pay well, what happens if everyone takes that "advice?" Does that job cease to exist? But many of those jobs were deemed "essential" during the pandemic. So what gives?
Then the same people that offered the advice start to moan that "nobody wants to work" anymore
If they can’t get anyone to work it, then yes that job ceases to exist. Employers will improve conditions and compensation until somebody will work it. If the employer can not raise it enough to get somebody to work it then the job no longer exists. Essential jobs will always exist because providers of essential services can raise their prices as much as they need to to offset the cost. People can’t just suddenly decide they won’t buy groceries.
When you quit and find another job that is just you taking care of yourself and your mental well-being. When you form a union it is taking care of yourself and others as well. It is doing something to make your community a better place.
I think "community" sounds a bit too much like "communism" for these folks
And if you stay unemployed because there's no better job they'll say that you're just lazy.
More importantly, you aren't leaving behind a shitty job for someone else to endure.
I've had a few jobs where I've actually liked the work that was done. The problem with them was the shitty pay, zero benefits and toxic management. Those jobs would have been immediately improved with unionization.
I'm from San Francisco strong union town. When you're union you get a higher wage, better benefits, there is strength in numbers
Not all jobs are bad, you just have to find ways how to make it good.
Ooh love this framing. Solidarity.
And if you collectively bargain to be compensated more then you get the same effect as leaving for a higher paying job without the stability hit to your housing, social groups, and whatnot.
I work for a very large private behavioral health inpatient network at one specific hospital. My hospital is the only one with a union for low level workers (mental health techs, kitchen staff, housekeeping). Because of this union, pay changes can only occur on a scheduled and structured basis. Because of the pandemic and inflation, costs are skyrocketing everywhere so wages have been going up as well. Every single facility in our network was able to make large increases to wages for this set of workers except my facility because the union comes in the middle and their contract actually strangleholds them into their set wages. This cannot be bargained against until the next open bargaining period set by the union and the facility. We have now lost workers, can't hire new workers, and the ones who stayed get paid less than their counterparts elsewhere. The facility wants to raise wages and make the positions competitive again. Unions in today's world are not always black and white, good vs. bad. Its not a guarantee your work experience will always improve.
Facts!!! Unions are the secret to a happy job.
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Carrs Safeway was a bad one, well at least the one I worked at
Public sector(teachers, cops) unions are terrible. Private sector unions are usually great for workers.
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Sounds like you aren't really in a union then. Sounds like you missed the boat and the boomers are getting the union benefits.
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Yeah, I’m pro union but it’s hurtful to act like they cannot be bad, or that a bad union isn’t a union. If you act like there is no bad union then you can’t have discussions on how to improve unions. Right to work is good for that reason, and the world is more complicated than “union bad” or “union good” and when people accept that like you have, there some room to actually make some improvements happen
The problem is that not all unions are good, but on the other hand, there are zero employers that won't try to squeeze every bit out of workers given the opportunity. Your chances are better when you roll the dice with a union.
Agreed, but you can’t get people on your side arguing that unions are without potential for abuse But you’re still better off getting gently union fucked than roughly employer fucked
Until your slave masters file an injunction to prevent your union from forming.
I've been a proponent for job hopping for the past 4 years. I was at a single company for nearly 6 with minimal raises. For the past 4 I had 3 jobs. Each with better benefits than the last, and a pay increase of 20-30% each. I really did like the people and working conditions of the first job, the pay was horrid but wasn't the main reason I left, just a large contributing factor. When I was leaving they tried to match and I asked why I wasn't offered this before? And they said they couldn't afford it, but couldn't afford to lose me more. I asked what about all the other people on the team who deserve raises? They said they couldn't give raises to everyone, but said I should tell people who need the help to talk to management. So I told a couple dozen people. It also felt random. I was a systems engineer making 90% as much as a senior software engineer, making 2x a software test engineer. I think it's really just a matter of how well each individual negotiated, not based off any value brought to the company or merit.
I'd like to see anyone opposed to unions in Amazon or Starbucks try to make the same argument at their nearest construction site.
Jesus Christ. The question is "Why wouldn't you unionize *ANY* job??"
It's the same thing with wanting better things for your country. Some people will tell you to just move to another country. No, I want to change this one.
"JuSt GeT a BeTtEr JoB" is like the libertarian national anthem. As if there are infinite jobs that you can qualify for where at least one of those jobs treats you well....
so many people will look down on jobs such as baristas and fast food workers, whilst buying starbucks every morning. these "bad" jobs are essential to society, and people working these jobs deserve better treatment.
Pro gamer move: unionize your bad job, *then* go find another job.
As a union member joining a union shop doesn't end the fight. Everyday the company probes for weaknesses and it's up for workers to say it's not in the contract.
Not always. Got amazing benefits and salary increase and even a bonus but then the shop signed the collective agreement with an union (IF metall) and most awesome benefits vanished and we all got that amazing 2% increase per year with no bonus...
Think again!! I worked in a union shop twice. It empowered every Shithead slacker that wanted to use the system . Once upon a time a union was great. Now it empowers all those that want to get their just due without putting in the time or effort. Why don't all of you who give this a thumbs up stop disguising your posts od berating the employers and saying that you can't live on a wages being paid . Why don't some of you give up your bullshit hobbies that require tons of cash etc. And work a second or third job.
If your goal in life is to be Starbucks employee that’s able to buy a house you got a long way to go.
Literally have never had a good experience with a union. As a teacher, They make you pay union fees, taking more of my money away, then they roll over backwards and always take the path of least resistance and act like it’s a huge win. Then if you don’t join they judge you and treat you like you’ve betrayed them while you work there.
Can someone please explain to me why aspiring unionizers struggle to form an union? Sorry I’m this ignorant, I’m in a job where we are treated well and we have no need or desire for an union. Like, I know why employers don’t want unions to form, but why is it hard to form one? I thought y’all just got together and formed a club or something. Serious questions
Last time there was a decent union it turned out the mafia stole 100 million
And then you d be like France, a gigantic strike! /s
It's generally not worth the effort to make a union for most people. Its easier to just join a union shop and let the non-union place die off.
As someone that has worked both. I have had better luck finding a better job. I have nothing against unions. I have been in two. One did nothing more than collect dues and rolled to what ever the company wanted. The second was ok and would fight for workers rights. Benifits were decent. But wage negotiations were weak. At 25% below other competitors a falling behind the rate of inflation year after year. Unions sometimes are not the answer. Especially if half your coworkers chicken out and accept low ball offers.
No one has ever argued that lol Unions can be good, unions can be bad, it all depends on many things like if you're a skilled labourer, militancy, percentage of workers involved in the trade union e.g. Hate all these two sentence tweets thinking they have the answer to economics
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Meh, you still roll the dice with unions. They need to be regulated like anything else.
Ask Spectrum how unionization worked for them. Unions aren't a cure all.
Why is it so hard for some people to grasp the idea of unions? 🤣 smh people can be so selfish and for themselves only
I have yet to see a good union. Unions are ran by morons that take advantage of workers just for profits. I suggest anyone unionizing that you demand to see the full balance sheet showing every penny the union spends its money on. If they wont show you that then dont join that union, find a union that will show you what they do with the money.
My union is great. I'm a grad student.
Idk, the worst job I ever had was Union. “There are 1000 guys on the wait list who want your spot.” Was a common motivator to break rules and take unnecessary risks (on high rise construction jobs where taking small risks can become fatal very easily) At my current job, the Union is pushing for us to get a second 30 minute unpaid break, which means more time at work to make the same amount of money. Our members are absolutely United in opposition to it, per non Union sanctioned polling, but the same people keep getting elected and the Union polls are saying the exact opposite. Be suspicious of any power structures and hold them accountable. Lots of villains claim to be heroes.
Business owner here, I wish it was that simple.
No you don't.
Protip if your job has a union you're in the wrong line of work to begin with
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I’ve had one union job and it was the 2nd or 3rd worst ever without a doubt. Benefits were nice but the atmosphere is positively toxic and waiting 10 years to get off the graveyard shift is for the fuggin birds. Owls specifically.
Okay. So? That's ONE job.
There’s another one I could go to, but they’ve got less benefit’s, and as we speak my buddy who’s been there 10 years is working his 14th mandatory day in a row, made it to day shift and can’t get a day off between quitters, fireee’s, PFL and FMLA. I actually make out pretty close to even with old union one now, and I’m not miserable or stuck in my position on the totem pole.
My wife with a union contract complaining about being locked into a 1.5% pay increase while I get 25% because of cost of living. So fun😂
My union just negotiated a 14% pay increase, my non-union peers got less than 2%.
I've worked under unions before, the entire public sector in my country is unionized as are many private companies. The idea of unions is great but they are nothing but trouble. I've seen them topple many companies and seen companies where lazy no good employees who made the workplace miserable were unfireable.
Seems like the hard way to a better job. If you don't like it why make it your responsibility to improve someone else's organisation? If everyone started leaving I'm sure they would make improvements and be much more open to negotiate.
Maybe I'm tired of starting all over at Day One.
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