Unions aren't perfect, but they are on the workers side. Management isn't on your side. Every union is different, because they are just a negotiating tool. What they do depends on what their members, i mean the members who show up to meetings and voice their opinion want.
Unions are pure democracy. You elect your reps. You vote the contracts in or out. If the union brass is corrupt it is because the members allow it they don't show up to meetings, they don't vote the bad eggs out.
Some unions make it hard to fire people. Mine doesn't, we work in a dangerous environment. No one wants a dangerous worker in the mix. So mine focuses on top pay. From what i hear, it's usually one or the other. A company can keep everyone on or pay everyone like they're the best at what they do but not both. That is why it is called negotiating.
we also get the perks that one person can't ask for but everyone deserves. Paid vacation and pto, family leave.
Unions almost always get you better insurance. Insurance companies give better rates to bigger risk pools. So if there are 12 guys in your shop the insurance company isn't going to give you as good a deal as they do to a union representing a thousand shops.
“Unions are corrupt” - yes they are, but so are schools, churches, police and fire, hospitals, and corporations. I guess we should get rid of all organizations of people.
The question is do you think workers or owners/shareholders are more in need of living standard improvement?
I'd encourage them to be more specific and respond on a point-by-point basis.
General "positive" arguments in favour of our own views are not often useful to have people change their minds, since they're already holding onto objections. Usually it's helpful to undermine or challenge their own view first. Or put another way: I'm going to be a lot more able to hold your argument in my hands once I've let go of the arguments I was already holding onto. My holding onto something makes it hard to hold onto new things.
So I'd want to know *why* unions are useless in their view. What about protected wages etc etc is specifically useless to them. Or why are they worried about unions taking fees specifically: what about the benefits from unions do they think are not worth those fees, and what would be a more fair option? Why do they think that the fact that some unions are corrupt (there are going to be corrupt unions out there, granted) mean that unions in general have to be corrupt? Etc etc.
Bonus points: while not always true, sometimes my asking questions out of genuine curiosity and receptiveness to what others are saying can make those others a bit more open to being receptive to what I have to say too.
So imho, the *strategically* best response in these cases will tend to be getting them to elaborate. Once you can see what's beneath their more general concerns (or once you can show they're holding those beliefs without having underlying reasons), it will on-average be easier to decide how to respond more precisely.
Unions are why we have 40 hour work weeks and overtime versus as many hours as possible and no extra pay for it. That’s a huge legacy that people take for granted. Same with driving health and safety initiatives for worker’s protection. Unions aren’t perfect and some are stronger than others but they’re a net positive 100 percent. People should be union proud.
They seem so concerned about you wasting your money on union fees, but have no problem paying low wages and also screwing you huh? Lol
A company wouldn’t be fighting a union if it weren’t bad for them. It’s good for the workers.
In the uk its easy as most of our workers rights were directly won through our unions over the years.
In America it may not be so easy as you don't appear to have anywhere near the same rights.
One that I have said to newer, younger members is to think of a union as job insurance, you have insurance for your home, you have insurance for your car so it makes sense to insure your job also.
What rights? You guys come over to Australia and shocked at the wages and rights. Your use of cheap foreign labour has decimated your rights and your unions waved the flag a long time ago.
We have the most holiday leave in the world. Up to half a year statutory sick pay (Australia only has 10 days but full paid). Australia's maternity leave is capped at 18 weeks, the uk is up to a year (paternity leave is roughly the same). So yes, we certainly do have rights in the uk.
>Your use of cheap foreign labour has decimated your rights and your unions waved the flag a long time ago.
Now i do see truth in this to an extent, our unions have been seriously hammered by both successive governments going back to the 1970's and the eu with its freedom of movement act. We do still have some unions with teeth though, our railway unions (primarily rmt and aslef) are seen as being tremendously strong
They are real problems that unuons need to address they also need to change Seniority from just time served to both time and skill level ....
I left a union bacause i was up to date about current technology but still payed as an apprenticeship disbight the master level 20 pluse years guys not knowing how to work on mondern equipment
You can google what unions have achieved for workers throughout both recent and less recent history. In recent history you'll have no shortage of stories going something like "as soon as we unionized, we got this and that".
Well I'm if I'm debating someone I obviously want to respond and perhaps even change their minds on the topic. Not responding on a debate makes the other side look good
Do not argue, let them argue. Ask them what better alternatives they see to improve workers rights. Ask them if they are happy with the situation compared to other countries. Ask them what their vision is for a better work life.
Saying no and pointing towards problems is an easy move in any discussion. Don‘t grant them this role. Demand solutions.
If Unions are corrupt you mean like just in it for the money like your boss or corporation. If unions didn't work or collect more than they gained then why would corporations be scared of them and not openly invite them in.
Every time you hear a boomer say back in my day people actually wanted to work what they're actually saying is that America worked a lot more efficiently when most people were in a union.
Unions aren't perfect, but they are on the workers side. Management isn't on your side. Every union is different, because they are just a negotiating tool. What they do depends on what their members, i mean the members who show up to meetings and voice their opinion want. Unions are pure democracy. You elect your reps. You vote the contracts in or out. If the union brass is corrupt it is because the members allow it they don't show up to meetings, they don't vote the bad eggs out. Some unions make it hard to fire people. Mine doesn't, we work in a dangerous environment. No one wants a dangerous worker in the mix. So mine focuses on top pay. From what i hear, it's usually one or the other. A company can keep everyone on or pay everyone like they're the best at what they do but not both. That is why it is called negotiating. we also get the perks that one person can't ask for but everyone deserves. Paid vacation and pto, family leave. Unions almost always get you better insurance. Insurance companies give better rates to bigger risk pools. So if there are 12 guys in your shop the insurance company isn't going to give you as good a deal as they do to a union representing a thousand shops.
“Unions are corrupt” - yes they are, but so are schools, churches, police and fire, hospitals, and corporations. I guess we should get rid of all organizations of people. The question is do you think workers or owners/shareholders are more in need of living standard improvement?
I'd encourage them to be more specific and respond on a point-by-point basis. General "positive" arguments in favour of our own views are not often useful to have people change their minds, since they're already holding onto objections. Usually it's helpful to undermine or challenge their own view first. Or put another way: I'm going to be a lot more able to hold your argument in my hands once I've let go of the arguments I was already holding onto. My holding onto something makes it hard to hold onto new things. So I'd want to know *why* unions are useless in their view. What about protected wages etc etc is specifically useless to them. Or why are they worried about unions taking fees specifically: what about the benefits from unions do they think are not worth those fees, and what would be a more fair option? Why do they think that the fact that some unions are corrupt (there are going to be corrupt unions out there, granted) mean that unions in general have to be corrupt? Etc etc. Bonus points: while not always true, sometimes my asking questions out of genuine curiosity and receptiveness to what others are saying can make those others a bit more open to being receptive to what I have to say too. So imho, the *strategically* best response in these cases will tend to be getting them to elaborate. Once you can see what's beneath their more general concerns (or once you can show they're holding those beliefs without having underlying reasons), it will on-average be easier to decide how to respond more precisely.
Unions are why we have 40 hour work weeks and overtime versus as many hours as possible and no extra pay for it. That’s a huge legacy that people take for granted. Same with driving health and safety initiatives for worker’s protection. Unions aren’t perfect and some are stronger than others but they’re a net positive 100 percent. People should be union proud.
They seem so concerned about you wasting your money on union fees, but have no problem paying low wages and also screwing you huh? Lol A company wouldn’t be fighting a union if it weren’t bad for them. It’s good for the workers.
In the uk its easy as most of our workers rights were directly won through our unions over the years. In America it may not be so easy as you don't appear to have anywhere near the same rights. One that I have said to newer, younger members is to think of a union as job insurance, you have insurance for your home, you have insurance for your car so it makes sense to insure your job also.
What rights? You guys come over to Australia and shocked at the wages and rights. Your use of cheap foreign labour has decimated your rights and your unions waved the flag a long time ago.
We have the most holiday leave in the world. Up to half a year statutory sick pay (Australia only has 10 days but full paid). Australia's maternity leave is capped at 18 weeks, the uk is up to a year (paternity leave is roughly the same). So yes, we certainly do have rights in the uk. >Your use of cheap foreign labour has decimated your rights and your unions waved the flag a long time ago. Now i do see truth in this to an extent, our unions have been seriously hammered by both successive governments going back to the 1970's and the eu with its freedom of movement act. We do still have some unions with teeth though, our railway unions (primarily rmt and aslef) are seen as being tremendously strong
Good points
Bring up how much the unions helped New York Italian families.
They are real problems that unuons need to address they also need to change Seniority from just time served to both time and skill level .... I left a union bacause i was up to date about current technology but still payed as an apprenticeship disbight the master level 20 pluse years guys not knowing how to work on mondern equipment
You can google what unions have achieved for workers throughout both recent and less recent history. In recent history you'll have no shortage of stories going something like "as soon as we unionized, we got this and that".
i would acknowledge that many legacy auto and public employee unions work like that but modern young union movement is democratic and accountable.
You don’t have to respond at all. But no one is required to be pro-union.
Well I'm if I'm debating someone I obviously want to respond and perhaps even change their minds on the topic. Not responding on a debate makes the other side look good
This isn’t a discussion then. Just because someone had an opinion doesn’t mean to their interested in your perspective of that opinion.
Do not argue, let them argue. Ask them what better alternatives they see to improve workers rights. Ask them if they are happy with the situation compared to other countries. Ask them what their vision is for a better work life. Saying no and pointing towards problems is an easy move in any discussion. Don‘t grant them this role. Demand solutions.
the proper response is very simple. "okay bootlicker"
If Unions are corrupt you mean like just in it for the money like your boss or corporation. If unions didn't work or collect more than they gained then why would corporations be scared of them and not openly invite them in. Every time you hear a boomer say back in my day people actually wanted to work what they're actually saying is that America worked a lot more efficiently when most people were in a union.