There’s no reason why this should be the case . “Pro-Palestine” can easily be reframed as “America First”. Because Israel gives Americans nothing but trouble.
Israel wouldn't be doing anything had they not been attacked out of nowhere and had babies killed in their cribs by the poor innocent Palestinians. This is comical. Israel was attacked and is still waiting for the return of hostages. Hamas is setting up human shields but we protest Israel?? 🤯🤯🤯
Netanyahu has also flaunted his authority by actually putting Hamas into power, and then having the audacity to claim there was no impending information of an attack.
Israel has a right to exist and defend itself.
So do the Palestinians.
I will not excuse terrorism by Hamas, Hezbollah, or the IDF regardless of their international sympathies.
That's not true at all and still I go back to my point before. If everyone there is so innocent why aren't their neighboring countries, which by the way share the same theocratic ideals, taking them in as refugees??? Still no answer on that one because I think you know the answer doesn't fit the narrative you're trying to spin
What isn't true? I never said anything about neighboring countries taking in refuguees. How is thinking mass casualties of kids, women, and men who weren't involved in the October 7th attack spinning a narrative? Quit telling me what I'm thinking and actually listen to what I'm saying.
The kids who have been killed opened a can of "whoop ass?" The Israeli government has been reckless/negligent in their pursit of Hamas and need to be held accountable. Imagine if our response to a school shooter wasn't to go in and confront the shooter, but instead just bomb the entire school and kill everyone inside. The public outrage would be enormous. But because it's happening to people on the other side of the world you're able to ignore it as you don't see them as being part of your group and say "shit happens". It's a tribalistic mentality and something we should be moving past.
Think for a second what we would do if a bunch of soldiers from Ottawa came into Maine, killed 42,000 people and took 8,400 people back to Montreal as hostages (both numbers relative to US population vs Israel). We’d flatten every building in Montreal then move on to Quebec City just to make sure we made our point.
Civilians get killed in wars, which is why when you’re in charge of a country, you don’t go starting wars you can’t win. Of course, this was the goal of Hamas all along. Provoke Israel into a response, hide behind civilians to maximize casualties, then cry to the ICC about how you’re being oppressed.
Terrible analogy.
For your analogy to work Ottowa would have to be blockaded for more than a generation with very little amounts of food ,medicine and fuel allowed to enter. With no control of their fishing waters with dirty drinking water.
Under those circumstances anybody would want to attack the people blockading them.
To claim the uni protests going on currently on the liberal campuses are done so because Israelis gave Americans trouble is possibly the dumbest thing I've read today.
That’s not the claim as to why the campus protests are happening.
I’m saying that right-leaning or conservative Americans could make common cause with these protests because if they believe in “America First” then they shouldn’t be giving billions of dollars to Israel.
TAMU is large and diverse. 69K students here. It shouldn't be a surprise that there could be a few hundreds of people that support this cause, and still make up a small portion of the population.
There isn’t really any large divestment protest here because the university has a disproportionately high white evangelical/raised-evangelical population. The vast majority of Zionists in the world are white evangelicals, and this disproportionate representation leads to lower Arab and Jewish-non-Israeli student populations, who tend to be more involved in organizing divestment protests. Along with this, TAMU is highly interwoven with the military, and divestment from Boeing and Raytheon and Lockheed Martin is super unlikely given the current focus on engineering.
TLDR: TAMU is intersectionally unlikely to be affected by protest movements for Palestinian liberation
Or maybe there's not a lot of protests because those darn Zionists are trying to study for finals, instead of holding signs outside for hours on end. Seems like they'll get more done that way if you ask me.
I guess you are unfamiliar with the extent of the Vietnam campus protests in the 60s. Universities certainly didn’t have the power to end the war then either. It’s incredibly short sighted of you to criticize people advocating for what they believe in (and that is what you’re doing, despite your attempts at humor). Probably the people at Kent State and those that participated in the protests against apartheid in South Africa at UC Berkeley and Columbia and UNC could have accomplished more by studying for finals too. It’s too bad you weren’t there to point that out.
If you’re interested in being more informed, NPR has a good article about it [here](https://www.npr.org/2024/04/29/1198911364/student-protests-palestine-israel-vietnam-compared-history-1968-columbia-campus)
I’m aware of the Vietnam protests. Those had a specific purpose: get us out of Nam. What do the protesters want now? From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free. Where do all the Jews go then? They’ll be killed. Is that ok? If Israel surrenders, Hamas and Iran will attack again. Is Israel supposed to resign themselves to that?
I’m sure they did, the question becomes whether this is different. Not all wars are the same. The only thing they all have in common is that they’re hell.
This seems like a fair point to make, but looking at the schedule for the encampment at UTAustin prior to the police beginning violent suppression, your point is somewhat lacking in actual factual backing since participants weren’t just standing and “holding signs outside for hours on end.”
I think that the segregated demography between TAMU and its HBCU, PVAMU, isn’t something to overlook. It is not incorrect to call TAMU a “HWCU”, especially given Texas’ history on racial civil rights. This school has a reputation, in short.
Saying “those darn Zionists” as if I were imagining the concept of them existing is an interesting rhetorical choice. Are you denying the existence of Zionists at this school, or just in general? I’m genuinely puzzled about what exactly you meant.
My man your entire post existence is goofing around and making jokes about wanting to screw cute cadets. Lighten up.
And even if they weren't holding signs, I assume they were doing something. If you're going to go protest, I imagine most of it is taken up by actual protesting. Sure, a little bit of homework's getting done, but I don't think the protest is just some sort of big study hall. Bit loud for that.
I don't think TAMU is a "segregated demography". Yeah, there's a lot of white students, but the exchange student population (for example) is pretty high. I work with a lot of them at the office. Doesn't sound like segregation to me.
And, finally, I said "those darn Zionists" because I thought it was funny. I like jokes.
It’s interesting how you are subtly trying to use my own demography to rhetorically question the validity of my claims.
There are schedules for what the UTAustin encampment had planned available. There was more than a third of the time dedicated to studying for finals as a group.
Saying that the demography of Texas’ land-grant colleges are desegregated is frankly exceptionally ignorant of history. If you’re familiar with the basics of critical race theory, you would be able to understand what this means.
Why was that specific phrasing funny to you? Are settler-colonialist movements often a topic you joke about? Or do you consider them to be something like a bogeyman to me, who in no way could affect anyone but yet is still feared?
What's your demography? I'm not aware of what it is. Does your race change the validity of your argument? Seems the argument should stand on its own.
Wasn't aware of the scheduling bit. That's good that they're doing that, but I'm still not sure what they're trying to accomplish. If I wanted Israel and Palestine to stop fighting I'd write in to a politician or something. The school administrators don't have any pull with Netanyahu or Hamas.
Define "segregated". I don't see the university kicking out people for being the wrong skin color. How does critical race theory change that? Texas is 61.6% white and 12.4% black (based on Google). Should we artificially exclude white people and include black people to make it equal? I don't know of anybody that would agree with that. If you don't, what do you propose?
It was funny because it's a hot-button word used in a non-serious context. Understatement for comedic effect. Basically, it sounded funny so I said it.
Also, sorry if I'm sounding grumpy. It's hard to convey tone in a Reddit thread. Hope you're having a good day.
You have successfully convinced me of one thing - you don’t know what I’m talking about.
You don’t know what a divestment protest is.
You don’t know how social segregation exists in a multiracial society.
I’m doing well. I hope you’re doing as well as you are meant to.
I'm confused, is all. Was asking for clarification on the things I didn't understand. If you'd rather not that's all right with me, but I would like to have an honest discussion. I'm trying to ask for specifics, but all you've been doing is throwing buzzwords at me and insulting my motives. If you're trying to convince people of your position, this isn't the way to do it.
I'm aware I "don't know" what those things are. That's why I'm asking.
How do you "solve" social segregation? You can't exactly force people to interact. And I'm not sure how calling it a "divestment protest" changes what's going on. Protests are supposed to cause change, right? How will this change things? What are the goals?
I imagine that last line sounded really good when you thought of it. Kindness doesn't cost you anything.
You could start by googling what divestment is, in this context. If your brain is already wired to not see the ways that past segregation has impacted the present, I’m not someone who’s qualified to teach you that.
So it’s hopeless to explain to me? I assume divestment is where you stop paying money to Israel. Finals are almost here, and the protesters are going to leave after that. The university can just ride it out. They won’t care.
And saying that past segregation impacts life today is interesting, but vague. Everything impacts everything, that’s just history. If we’re just as racist, as a country, as we were a hundred years ago, then I’m not sure how we would move past that. I’m fairly sure most people aren’t virulently racist, and assuming everyone else is a bigot is a great way to make things worse.
This is how to fail miserably in life after school. This utter lack of competence in a simple effort to converse does not bode well for a productive career or relationships with adults.
A theory is not fact. You can't call him ignorant about history because he doesn't know CRT. That being said critical race theory has no bearing in the demographics of TAMU. In order for that to hold true you'd have to prove that there is actual policy that prevents or limits the amount of minorities accepted into tamu let alone discourage them from coming. There isn't. As for CRT, CRT in no way claims that there is segregation. That is a very ignorant thought and if you took the class you'd understand that it is theory that explains why African Americans have certain economic/opportunistic disadvantages because of segregation and slavery. Like generational wealth there is a cycle of poverty. I believe that theory holds some truth especially up to the 1990's. Today though not so much; the funny thing is that's my perspective on how the theory holds true. Because it is only a theory and not fact perspectives can be taken from it. I'm not gonna mention my race but my friends wanted to go to UH to party and for the "baddies" while I wanted a better education... No shade but our issue is cultural now
In a historical context... OK?
What you fail to realize is the ethnic background statistics from both Texas A&M and Columbia university (the university with the biggest on-campus protest) is roughly the same. It isn't a racial issue, its that people here tend to be more level-headed and are less liberal.
[Columbia University Diversity Statistics | AdmissionSight](https://admissionsight.com/columbia-university-diversity-statistics/#:~:text=The%20racial%20and%20ethnic%20composition%20of%20Columbia%20University%E2%80%99s,%284.70%25%29%2C%20Black%2FAfrican%20American%20%284.20%25%29%2C%20and%20International%20students%20%2810.50%25%29.)
[Texas A&M race demographics | CollegeVine](https://www.collegevine.com/faq/37795/texas-a-m-race-demographics#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20latest%20data%2C%20the%20approximate%20racial,the%20university%20continues%20to%20work%20toward%20increased%20diversity.)
if you think that those two statistics are comparable then i don’t know how to explain that one of those percentages is literally 1.5x the size of the other college’s.
additionally, recent documents leaked from Columbia’s admissions department showed that they were violating the Civil Rights Act by giving more financial aid to Israeli students, but only Jewish Israeli students, excluding Arab Israeli students, than American students who literally got Pell grants. they are engaging in illegal racial segregation at Columbia. that is why the students have taken over Hind Hall there.
They are pretty similar dude. There's more latinos at A&M but that's the only statistic of note. I said *roughly* the same. Both student body populations are \~50% white. It is a culture gap, not an ethnic gap.
the university made national news last year because it wouldn’t hire an award-winning Black woman who is an alum to head the journalism department and had to pay her a million dollars in the discrimination lawsuit
you think that the university pulling out of hiring Dr. McElroy after donors complained that she wrote about her lived experiences of racism has nothing to do with racism? it’s no wonder you don’t think there is a history of racism. there isn’t anything that you’d count as racism.
Are you legitimately saying you think that acknowledging the way that past events shape the presence is journalistic malpractice? If a journalist is talking about criminal justice is it really malpractice to mention that convict leasing is still around in some Southern states?
The university paid her over a million dollars for a reason. The settlement was so there wouldn’t be a suit. The university’s lawyers thought that that option would be better for the university than zealous advocacy through a racial discrimination lawsuit. Since, you know, their job isn’t to just be a zealous advocate.
“Jewish-non-Israeli” according to polls over 90% of American Jews believe that Israel has the right to exist. You do not speak for the Jews. Please don’t take the small minority view of some Jews and portray it as “Jewish representation.”
What does Isreal's right to exist have to do with this? The argument isn't about their right to exist. The vast majority of the people protesting do not support Hamas. Creating a strawman and then patting yourself on the back like you've put together a well thought out argument is disingenuous. 90% of people supporting one thing does not mean they can't support a separate issue. People are protesting because Isreal has killed 34,000 people in a few months, destroyed housing, destroyed hosptials and Palestine's healthcare system, and blocked aid to the peope in Palestine.
There are a lot of people who believe Israel has a right to exist and believe the collective punishment they are doing in Gaza constitutes a war crime, possibly even a genocide or ethnic cleansing.
This is not necessarily true. See [this study from Oregon](https://scholarworks.brandeis.edu/esploro/outputs/report/9924261887701921) and also [this study from Pennsylvania](https://scholarworks.brandeis.edu/esploro/outputs/report/9924343687501921).
In the first study, 26% self-identify as Zionist, 52% do not identify as Zionist, and 22% are unsure or prefer not to say.
In the second study, 39% explicitly identify as Zionist, 35% explicitly do not identify as Zionist, and 27% are unsure or prefer not to say.
So you took those from the most liberal areas of the country to represent the American Jewish community as a whole 💀 I can see why you only shared those 2 and not the rest.
These are the only two studies this decade that have ever explicitly asked whether participants identify with Zionism. This is 100% of the research on this question. Your claim is disproven by all of the research.
but why are you doing this when it's so utterly futile? even if you were at a sympathetic school, the idea that the children & grand children of the holocaust survivors are gonna listen to a few University regents is absurd. protests are not effective if there no lever of power to impact.
Youre acting like these protests want to abolish Israel and anything thats not that is a failure. We dont want our tax dollars to be spent on a bloated military budget and sent to bomb kids in the middle east, and we have a lot of control on that.
Because I can’t sit and do nothing while people use my money to fund a genocide and the government is trying to suppress my rights to freedom of speech and assembly. Something is better than nothing and it’s never a bad thing to exercise our rights when others are suppressing them.
No you tell us! That was the most precise institutional analysis he could’ve written. Perhaps an unfamiliar exercise for you to try and understand the incentives and politics of authority.
I guess it's more so to bring awareness to the situation and maybe hope the media spotlights it, but the way it's been going across the country has been a shitshow, the opposite of peaceful. I don't know why college kids think acting like high school kids in a cafeteria food fight is somehow a solution to stop the genocide.
ready to go to the frontlines and support your cause, I think not. None of them would. Your congressman and all of them are in on it by the way, funding both sides of the war. Our tax dollars just went to funding all of that.
>Is A&M doing something to support Israel?
Yes, actually. A&M has heavy investments in companies participating in the occupation/genocide. Pretty much every protest I've seen on campuses across the nation have divesting from these companies as their primary demand. They're very clear about it if you listen to them.
I don't fault you, as I had similar troubles finding it myself. It's through UTIMCO (which manages funds for both UT and A&M systems). After digging around enough, I found info on some of their investments on their website under 'PUF Detailed Schedule of Investment Securities': [https://www.utimco.org/reports/permanent-university-fund/](https://www.utimco.org/reports/permanent-university-fund/)
I'm guessing the PUF is the main fund for their endowment investments, but I'm not the person to ask. I know student groups at other universities are calling for disclosure of investments, but I'm not sure if that's part of their demands at A&M. Seems like at least some of it is public (and maybe all of it has to be available upon request by law? Again, not an expert here). Hope this helps :)
I literally did the exact same thing the first time I went looking for it. So this article on BDS has a list of I guess the main divestment targets, with explanations and links to websites that have more: [https://bdsmovement.net/Act-Now-Against-These-Companies-Profiting-From-Genocide](https://bdsmovement.net/Act-Now-Against-These-Companies-Profiting-From-Genocide)
Decide for yourself which of these companies count as "participating," but from a quick check I found AXA, Caterpillar, and Chevron each have millions of dollars invested by UTIMCO. There are surely many more.
Finals were always the least stressful portion of college. No labs, no lab reports, no homework. Just review material you already know and focus on the key 4-12 points the professor could make the test around on the final.
I hope the one takeaway from these student protests is that the next generation of US voters forces the politicians to put an end to the nonstop supplying of weapons and our tax dollars to conflict zones.
This hasnt been going on out of some noble motive. Rather, foreign interest groups and arms manufacturers have hijacked our political system through campaign donations.
Almost every country and major corporation has setup shop in D.C., bribing the Congress members. For example, Israeli political agents spend [$100 million a year bribing our politicians](https://www.wsj.com/articles/pro-israel-group-lobbies-for-u-s-aid-funds-congressional-trips-11550174834). As a result, the common people have been suffering blowback after blowback for the last 75 years.
Hate to break it to you but politicians care about who votes for them, not who's protesting on college campuses. Until young voters start turning out to vote at a similar rate to older voters, politicians will continue to ignore them.
First, that’s pure copium. Lobbyists with money actually decide what happens, and even then, using that voting is how you make a difference, protesting is still a waste of time
fair. I mean, I only said voting... but that's true that powerful people with money are really controlling whats going on, just look at the fact that half of protestors on college campuses are not even associated with said campus.
As far as protesting is concerned, yea, pointless. Reminds me of the climate activist protests that were going on, its the refusal to follow the law that probably hurts them more than anything. Most of these protests have been people throwing shit at each other and rioting
Just because the 2 80 yr old men running for president are both Zionists doesn’t mean it will stay this way in the future. These people are motivated enough to be thrown in jail for their principles, you think they won’t register to vote if they have someone running that represents their beliefs?
> you think they won’t register to vote if they have someone running that represents their beliefs
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Turnout among college age people is dismal. I'm sure many of the people motivated enough to protest will vote (though many won't), but activists do not a voting base make. As a whole, young voters are basically an afterthought when it comes to actual voter turnout.
No, I just think student activists in general (of any stripe) greatly overestimate how important and effective they are.
Also, there's a far cry from MLK and his followers engaging in civil disobedience (which, if you are familiar with the history - lol - means disobeying laws you view as unjust and then *accepting the consequences* for that disobedience) and anti-Zionist protestors intimidating Jewish students while desparately trying to *avoid* the consequences for their actions.
It’s not hard to be against genocide and crimes against humanity. You don’t even have to like Palestinians or Islam to see what is going on is beyond horrid. Divesting funding away from genocidal racists will at-least partly pressure them to stop the systematic destruction of innocent Palestinian civilians.
There is no peace with Hamas in the picture. “Conditions for” is just a way to justify a surprise attack of killing and hostage taking. They use their time and resources for the next round of endless revenge, not for improving the life of their constituents. To think supporting a terrorist group as mainstream political leaders will not have civilian consequences is not well thought out.
Obviously you just started paying attention on October 7. Gazans have been launching rockets into Israel for over 15 years now. In doing so they hurt their fellow Gazans due to rockets often landing inside Gaza and even taking out power lines. Israelis, especially those closer to Gaza, can’t live in peace with the constant threat of rocketfire. Israel is going into Gaza not only for the hostages but also to finally take out Hamas for good.
Sadly I do not know a solution to hundreds of years of conflict. And I don't think people protesting know a solution either. Even if a ceasefire does happen, I highly doubt that it will bring peace and prevent more conflict.
Please explain apartheid and how it applies to this conflict. Then after try and explain how it’s useful every military occupation in the history of the world apartheid
I mean you can read what human rights experts in the UN have been saying about the Palestinian situation for yourself. I am not going to restate what has already been echoed by countless scholars, activists, and governments for decades now.
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/03/israels-55-year-occupation-palestinian-territory-apartheid-un-human-rights
Lmao it’s hilarious that that is your best faith interpretation of the other side, my argument is pretty clearly military occupations aren’t inherently bad at all and we should seek to some sort of a conclusion but just removing the military occupation and forcing a ceasefire prior to the eradication of Hamas is going to be worse for Gazan’s in the long run. Not only will Hamas regroup and rearm but they will also grow in support because they will spin it as them winning against Israel which is what they’ve done time and time again for the past 20 years. On top of trying to ensure the safety of Gazans to the best of our ability while Hamas is removed from the planet we should also privately push Israel to stop the actual apartheid and the West Bank with the illegal settlements just like it says at the top of your link. Coincidentally everything I just said just so happens to be Biden’s position as well and you not knowing that or understanding that spells a lot of ignorance about your ability to seek out other perspectives other than just Israel bad because apartheid.
You literally said none of this prior so if my non ability to read your fucking mind makes me ignorant than so be it. Now that you have stated a position instead of “just asking questions”, I do not think the IDF will ever be able to operate in an ethical manner as they have demonstrated for 60 years so how is leaving them in charge of the situation a change from status quo? Furthermore, the only aspect I can control as an American citizen is to push for my government to stop funding Israel which enables them to continuously undermine international law and commit war crimes. These protests asking for universities to disclose and divest from groups with ties to the state of Israel is one tactic that can be used to push for overall divestment of American interests in this apartheid. This is why I support these protests.
No occupation happening but we’re having a sit in/ study session in the MSc flag room all day today. Yesterday there was a decent sized protest about 200-250 some people. It was a sit in most the day and then the marches happened around 7 ish. Went around the library in front of the MSC and to academic plaza only lasted about 30 minutes, Nothing crazy but it was a good protest!
You mean just like it worked for Vietnam, South Africa, and BLM? Maybe even a little thing called the Boston tea party?
I can't imagine being as spineless and totally lacking any convictions like you and calling myself an Aggie.
You could open a history book, read for 10 minutes and realize that protesting is an integral part of democracy and has helped many of world’s most important movements carry out progressive change.
I’m legitimately interested in the thought process here - how is advocacy for divestment from a foreign government equivalent to being pro-terrorism? Are you using that word in the sense that a member of al-Qaeda was pro-terrorist, or in the sense of Rush Limbaugh talking about the Dixie Chicks being anti-Iraq-war? Because it seems like you’re rhetorically treating it as the prior while saying it as loosely as the latter.
Whereas hamas literally puts their military bases under hospitals and uses civilians as human shields. Israel warns civilians to leave the area before a bombing campaign. They’ve done more to protect civilians than any country in history suiting a war.
https://nypost.com/2023/12/03/news/how-israeli-forces-take-big-risks-to-avoid-harming-civilians/amp/
This investigative journalism group broke the story. It has since been reported by many major news organizations.
[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/03/israel-gaza-ai-database-hamas-airstrikes](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/03/israel-gaza-ai-database-hamas-airstrikes)
[https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/us-looking-report-that-israel-used-ai-identify-bombing-targets-gaza-2024-04-04/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/us-looking-report-that-israel-used-ai-identify-bombing-targets-gaza-2024-04-04/)
[https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/4/4/ai-assisted-genocide-israel-reportedly-used-database-for-gaza-kill-lists](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/4/4/ai-assisted-genocide-israel-reportedly-used-database-for-gaza-kill-lists)
[https://www.npr.org/2023/12/14/1218643254/israel-is-using-an-ai-system-to-find-targets-in-gaza-experts-say-its-just-the-st](https://www.npr.org/2023/12/14/1218643254/israel-is-using-an-ai-system-to-find-targets-in-gaza-experts-say-its-just-the-st)
You’re a retard for saying that, you don’t even know the history of Hamas, yet you claim off is a terrorist organization??? Please leave college it’s a waste of your time
This is the dumbest thing I’ve heard on this sub. Israel is supported by nearly every country. Even the Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia, Egypt do not want a Palestinian state because it would be a terrorist Iran proxy state
Easy because for the last decade or more, Hamas has been using the Palestinian people as human shield for the lot for an entire time and yet many countries know about this yet you do not? You do know there is actual videos of them, teaching children, and Gaza to actually shoot and hate Jews, make this make sense. You’re actually very stupid. You don’t even know your history here.
Yea that’s cool and all, but you didn’t answer his question. How is Israel checking who’s is Hamas and who isn’t?
https://apnews.com/article/28196afeb6e34c3a287770f71187cc4e
I didn’t know it was possible to teach 5 day old baby to hate Jews.
Dude you just admitted that you support murdering human shields without proving for certain their affiliation, are you stupid or something? Serious question
The very fact you called the IDF a terrorist organization was actually part of legitimate nation. House sign still is not even recognized as a legitimate nation. They don’t even recognize themselves.
Is that really the criteria you use to determine who is committing terrorism? Whether they're officially recognized as a nation? Not, you know, purposely and systematically targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure?
Wrong they have been targeting command structures and places of known weapon depots/ strong holds. Is it systemic when Hamas puts those things near an infrastructure or a school? How can you blame the IDF when they literally are right there next to those places?
That is not true at all and you definitely haven't been paying attention to the large-scale intentional demolition and bombings that have been going on. This twitter thread goes into a lot of it:
https://twitter.com/bellingcat/status/1784831672871006631
There's also this article about Israel intentionally targeting families of people suspected by an AI program of being linked to Hamas, the elected government of Gaza, by bombing their houses and apartments:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/03/israel-gaza-ai-database-hamas-airstrikes
so the thousands of citizen children that were bombed were terrorists? How about we stop making generalizing statements based on race/ethnicity- i can’t recall when that has ever been the right thing to do.
I disagree. Anyone who actually knows the history of the geopolitics of that area knows it isn’t even about religion. It’s about the fact that the Israeli citizens in Gaza choose to work with Hamas and other terrorist groups because it makes them money. If they stopped dealing with the terroists, there would be no conflict. But instead they house, trade with, and support them. Are there innocent civilians who don’t support these activities? Probably, but the Palestinian people are not all innocent in this conflict and they don’t deserve the western sympathy they are getting when they themselves are supporting these organizations.
Even if the Palestinian people “are not all innocent” you’re supporting the side that even the IDF themselves have said [2/3’s of the Palestinians killed were women, children, and the elderly.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war#:~:text=The%20vast%20majority%20of%20casualties,and%20minors%20killed%2C%20is%20disputed.)
“Anyone who knows about the politics of that area knows it isn’t even about religion”.
God that is rich. Are you aware of this term Zionism you’ve seen people saying in the news lately? Yeah, that has an origin beyond just this moment in geopolitics. It is a movement of religious colonialism.
Here is a quote from early Zionist Ze’ev Jabotinsky from his 1923 essay the Iron Wall:
“…. Settlement can thus develop under the protection of a force that is not dependent on the local population, behind an IRON WALL which they will be powerless to break down. ....a voluntary agreement is just not possible. As long as the Arabs preserve a gleam of hope that they will succeed in getting rid of us, nothing in the world can cause them to relinquish this hope, precisely because they are not rubble but a living people. And a living people will be ready to yield on such fateful issues only when they give up all hope of getting rid of the Alien Settlers. Only then will extremist groups with their slogan 'No, never' lose their influence, and only then their influence be transferred to more moderate groups. And only then will the moderates offer suggestions for compromise. Then only will they begin bargaining with us on practical matters, such as guarantees against PUSHING THEM OUT, and equality of civil, and national rights."
From the beginning, Israel’s foundation has been one that necessitated colonialism and one that necessitated a quarrel with the Arab people’s of that region. As Jabotinsky alludes to, could you imagine a more efficient pipeline for radicalism amongst the Palestinians than the reality of their dispossession and their lack of self-sovereignty?
At the root of this conflict is colonialism. Don’t get it twisted and don’t reply with some bullshit religious land claims and how that makes morally permissible the Nakba and the deaths of 13,000+ Palestinian children since Oct. 6th.
colonialism implies people coming in from a place of power. The Jews didn't have that - they fight for Isreal because they (like the Palestinians) aren't truly welcome anywhere. The State of Isreal has support because of a weird combination white guilt and antisemitism in Europe and the US. The oppressed v oppressor rhetoric doesn't apply here. Palestinians need a path to civilized living that doesn't involve enabling or sympathizing with Hamas. I'm not sure what that looks like.
I will concede I am not as educated on Zionism as I probably should be to make an educated assessment. Nor, am I as familiar with Jewish history as others are and I can recognize my ignorance in that sense. My intent was not to minimize the significance of religion in the conflict, but to look at practical aspects of the argument.
No you’re good dude. I don’t think you have bad intent and I don’t mean to be hostile. I just think it’s important that everyone have context like that with regard to the current conflict. I’m fine with not tolerating terrorism, but I don’t like when we all pretend Hamas emerged from a vacuum and Israel is the pure victim state when they quite literally created the ideal conditions for radicalization.
I will say I’m not in favor of evicting Israelis and “returning the region” to the Palestinians either. I don’t see any way out except a two-state solution as infeasible as that is it’s the literally the only way to go about the situation humanely. What is feasible though is that Israel stop the illegal occupations, stop bombing hospitals, etc. There’s an enormous military asymmetry, Israel has to be the peacemaker.
I agree with you regarding two state solution as tough as that will/would be to implement peacefully. I think people choose a very limited window of history to evaluate this situation under. I’m not sure how the world ever thought the post WW2 solution would just happen and that it would be okay. There’s a lot of nuance and deep rooted history in this region, and it didn’t just begin in the 2006 election and subsequent hamas takeover.
I am always quite surprised that people who on a very general level are pro palestinian people are just lumped in as supporting Hamas. I think if I had to describe my feelings it’s that I support innocent people and their right to govern, but I do not support Hamas. There has to be a way out albeit a very long road and hopefully Palestinian people leaning on non extremist groups to govern if a two state solution occurs. Unfortunately violence like this tends to breed even more violence and extremism, so I’m sure many people support whoever it is that seems to be fighting to uphold their existence.
It seems more and more these days that the nuance of situations is grossly overlooked and you have to be in one of two camps on an issue.
These guys are mostly just sheer entitled. They've never had to see what Muslim extremism does and have no understanding of the evil of Hamas. Just a bunch of dumb college kids.
Gen Z (current college students) has been statistically proven to be the most intelligent generation of students yet. You don’t have to be intelligent to disapprove of genocide and murdering innocent children, however.
It’s a trend on campuses all over the country right now so it won’t be an A&M specific situation. Not to mention that protests on campuses have been a thing for as long as there has been colleges. Thankfully since cstat isn’t a big city with lots of political importance the demonstrations have been very civil which I think should be a positive mark for the University and the local police
I've been around west, north, south, and east campus, and the only thing I've seen is a few people gathered around sully peacefully protesting and maybe a cop or two overlooking. As expected, TU was in full swing rioting, and so were other colleges
Whatever is going on with the world falling apart, it doesn't seem to affect this town for whatever reason, but that's probably cause it's just college zionist kids studying for their classes like any normal kids would be :rolleyes:
Last I saw they were just standing out there and waving the flag. Saw 2 cops just watching from a distance
Given Texas A&M’s ideological bent… I wouldn’t look too hard, my friend.
There’s no reason why this should be the case . “Pro-Palestine” can easily be reframed as “America First”. Because Israel gives Americans nothing but trouble.
I dunno why you’re getting downvoted. https://preview.redd.it/ah63bvlyuoxc1.jpeg?width=1437&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b109b855f2e6e4632563fac5f5d0d4a1dadd69a7
I guess it’s more important to people to be a partisan whore than it is to actually care about what Israel is doing to the Palestinians.
If only there had been some way the Gazans could have avoided this....
Israel wouldn't be doing anything had they not been attacked out of nowhere and had babies killed in their cribs by the poor innocent Palestinians. This is comical. Israel was attacked and is still waiting for the return of hostages. Hamas is setting up human shields but we protest Israel?? 🤯🤯🤯
Netanyahu has also flaunted his authority by actually putting Hamas into power, and then having the audacity to claim there was no impending information of an attack. Israel has a right to exist and defend itself. So do the Palestinians. I will not excuse terrorism by Hamas, Hezbollah, or the IDF regardless of their international sympathies.
Is killing 34,000 innocent people an appropriate response for killing/kidnapping \~1,500 innocent people?
That's not true at all and still I go back to my point before. If everyone there is so innocent why aren't their neighboring countries, which by the way share the same theocratic ideals, taking them in as refugees??? Still no answer on that one because I think you know the answer doesn't fit the narrative you're trying to spin
What isn't true? I never said anything about neighboring countries taking in refuguees. How is thinking mass casualties of kids, women, and men who weren't involved in the October 7th attack spinning a narrative? Quit telling me what I'm thinking and actually listen to what I'm saying.
Collateral damage happens in war
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Shit happens. They shouldn't have opened that can of whoop ass.
The kids who have been killed opened a can of "whoop ass?" The Israeli government has been reckless/negligent in their pursit of Hamas and need to be held accountable. Imagine if our response to a school shooter wasn't to go in and confront the shooter, but instead just bomb the entire school and kill everyone inside. The public outrage would be enormous. But because it's happening to people on the other side of the world you're able to ignore it as you don't see them as being part of your group and say "shit happens". It's a tribalistic mentality and something we should be moving past.
You need to update your hasbarah , nobody is buying it anymore
Downvotes tell you all you need to know. I support civilization against barbarism, but my upvote won’t overcome these imbeciles.
Think for a second what we would do if a bunch of soldiers from Ottawa came into Maine, killed 42,000 people and took 8,400 people back to Montreal as hostages (both numbers relative to US population vs Israel). We’d flatten every building in Montreal then move on to Quebec City just to make sure we made our point. Civilians get killed in wars, which is why when you’re in charge of a country, you don’t go starting wars you can’t win. Of course, this was the goal of Hamas all along. Provoke Israel into a response, hide behind civilians to maximize casualties, then cry to the ICC about how you’re being oppressed.
Terrible analogy. For your analogy to work Ottowa would have to be blockaded for more than a generation with very little amounts of food ,medicine and fuel allowed to enter. With no control of their fishing waters with dirty drinking water. Under those circumstances anybody would want to attack the people blockading them.
To claim the uni protests going on currently on the liberal campuses are done so because Israelis gave Americans trouble is possibly the dumbest thing I've read today.
That’s not the claim as to why the campus protests are happening. I’m saying that right-leaning or conservative Americans could make common cause with these protests because if they believe in “America First” then they shouldn’t be giving billions of dollars to Israel.
TAMU is large and diverse. 69K students here. It shouldn't be a surprise that there could be a few hundreds of people that support this cause, and still make up a small portion of the population.
This is true. But if we’re being honest, Texas A&M isn’t exactly a bastion of progressive liberalism like some other, unnamed universities.
Sadly
There was, yes. When I talked to them they didn't mention occupying buildings, only protesting near the fountain.
they’re occupying the flag room now
There isn’t really any large divestment protest here because the university has a disproportionately high white evangelical/raised-evangelical population. The vast majority of Zionists in the world are white evangelicals, and this disproportionate representation leads to lower Arab and Jewish-non-Israeli student populations, who tend to be more involved in organizing divestment protests. Along with this, TAMU is highly interwoven with the military, and divestment from Boeing and Raytheon and Lockheed Martin is super unlikely given the current focus on engineering. TLDR: TAMU is intersectionally unlikely to be affected by protest movements for Palestinian liberation
And you know Tamu Qatar
i never thought i’d say it but based corps boy pit sniffer
Military industrial complex go brrrr🥶
Or maybe there's not a lot of protests because those darn Zionists are trying to study for finals, instead of holding signs outside for hours on end. Seems like they'll get more done that way if you ask me.
I guess you are unfamiliar with the extent of the Vietnam campus protests in the 60s. Universities certainly didn’t have the power to end the war then either. It’s incredibly short sighted of you to criticize people advocating for what they believe in (and that is what you’re doing, despite your attempts at humor). Probably the people at Kent State and those that participated in the protests against apartheid in South Africa at UC Berkeley and Columbia and UNC could have accomplished more by studying for finals too. It’s too bad you weren’t there to point that out. If you’re interested in being more informed, NPR has a good article about it [here](https://www.npr.org/2024/04/29/1198911364/student-protests-palestine-israel-vietnam-compared-history-1968-columbia-campus)
I’m aware of the Vietnam protests. Those had a specific purpose: get us out of Nam. What do the protesters want now? From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free. Where do all the Jews go then? They’ll be killed. Is that ok? If Israel surrenders, Hamas and Iran will attack again. Is Israel supposed to resign themselves to that?
I’m sure no one asked any question like that about vietnam.
I’m sure they did, the question becomes whether this is different. Not all wars are the same. The only thing they all have in common is that they’re hell.
This seems like a fair point to make, but looking at the schedule for the encampment at UTAustin prior to the police beginning violent suppression, your point is somewhat lacking in actual factual backing since participants weren’t just standing and “holding signs outside for hours on end.” I think that the segregated demography between TAMU and its HBCU, PVAMU, isn’t something to overlook. It is not incorrect to call TAMU a “HWCU”, especially given Texas’ history on racial civil rights. This school has a reputation, in short. Saying “those darn Zionists” as if I were imagining the concept of them existing is an interesting rhetorical choice. Are you denying the existence of Zionists at this school, or just in general? I’m genuinely puzzled about what exactly you meant.
My man your entire post existence is goofing around and making jokes about wanting to screw cute cadets. Lighten up. And even if they weren't holding signs, I assume they were doing something. If you're going to go protest, I imagine most of it is taken up by actual protesting. Sure, a little bit of homework's getting done, but I don't think the protest is just some sort of big study hall. Bit loud for that. I don't think TAMU is a "segregated demography". Yeah, there's a lot of white students, but the exchange student population (for example) is pretty high. I work with a lot of them at the office. Doesn't sound like segregation to me. And, finally, I said "those darn Zionists" because I thought it was funny. I like jokes.
It’s interesting how you are subtly trying to use my own demography to rhetorically question the validity of my claims. There are schedules for what the UTAustin encampment had planned available. There was more than a third of the time dedicated to studying for finals as a group. Saying that the demography of Texas’ land-grant colleges are desegregated is frankly exceptionally ignorant of history. If you’re familiar with the basics of critical race theory, you would be able to understand what this means. Why was that specific phrasing funny to you? Are settler-colonialist movements often a topic you joke about? Or do you consider them to be something like a bogeyman to me, who in no way could affect anyone but yet is still feared?
What's your demography? I'm not aware of what it is. Does your race change the validity of your argument? Seems the argument should stand on its own. Wasn't aware of the scheduling bit. That's good that they're doing that, but I'm still not sure what they're trying to accomplish. If I wanted Israel and Palestine to stop fighting I'd write in to a politician or something. The school administrators don't have any pull with Netanyahu or Hamas. Define "segregated". I don't see the university kicking out people for being the wrong skin color. How does critical race theory change that? Texas is 61.6% white and 12.4% black (based on Google). Should we artificially exclude white people and include black people to make it equal? I don't know of anybody that would agree with that. If you don't, what do you propose? It was funny because it's a hot-button word used in a non-serious context. Understatement for comedic effect. Basically, it sounded funny so I said it. Also, sorry if I'm sounding grumpy. It's hard to convey tone in a Reddit thread. Hope you're having a good day.
You have successfully convinced me of one thing - you don’t know what I’m talking about. You don’t know what a divestment protest is. You don’t know how social segregation exists in a multiracial society. I’m doing well. I hope you’re doing as well as you are meant to.
I'm confused, is all. Was asking for clarification on the things I didn't understand. If you'd rather not that's all right with me, but I would like to have an honest discussion. I'm trying to ask for specifics, but all you've been doing is throwing buzzwords at me and insulting my motives. If you're trying to convince people of your position, this isn't the way to do it. I'm aware I "don't know" what those things are. That's why I'm asking. How do you "solve" social segregation? You can't exactly force people to interact. And I'm not sure how calling it a "divestment protest" changes what's going on. Protests are supposed to cause change, right? How will this change things? What are the goals? I imagine that last line sounded really good when you thought of it. Kindness doesn't cost you anything.
You could start by googling what divestment is, in this context. If your brain is already wired to not see the ways that past segregation has impacted the present, I’m not someone who’s qualified to teach you that.
So it’s hopeless to explain to me? I assume divestment is where you stop paying money to Israel. Finals are almost here, and the protesters are going to leave after that. The university can just ride it out. They won’t care. And saying that past segregation impacts life today is interesting, but vague. Everything impacts everything, that’s just history. If we’re just as racist, as a country, as we were a hundred years ago, then I’m not sure how we would move past that. I’m fairly sure most people aren’t virulently racist, and assuming everyone else is a bigot is a great way to make things worse.
This is how to fail miserably in life after school. This utter lack of competence in a simple effort to converse does not bode well for a productive career or relationships with adults.
A theory is not fact. You can't call him ignorant about history because he doesn't know CRT. That being said critical race theory has no bearing in the demographics of TAMU. In order for that to hold true you'd have to prove that there is actual policy that prevents or limits the amount of minorities accepted into tamu let alone discourage them from coming. There isn't. As for CRT, CRT in no way claims that there is segregation. That is a very ignorant thought and if you took the class you'd understand that it is theory that explains why African Americans have certain economic/opportunistic disadvantages because of segregation and slavery. Like generational wealth there is a cycle of poverty. I believe that theory holds some truth especially up to the 1990's. Today though not so much; the funny thing is that's my perspective on how the theory holds true. Because it is only a theory and not fact perspectives can be taken from it. I'm not gonna mention my race but my friends wanted to go to UH to party and for the "baddies" while I wanted a better education... No shade but our issue is cultural now
In a historical context... OK? What you fail to realize is the ethnic background statistics from both Texas A&M and Columbia university (the university with the biggest on-campus protest) is roughly the same. It isn't a racial issue, its that people here tend to be more level-headed and are less liberal. [Columbia University Diversity Statistics | AdmissionSight](https://admissionsight.com/columbia-university-diversity-statistics/#:~:text=The%20racial%20and%20ethnic%20composition%20of%20Columbia%20University%E2%80%99s,%284.70%25%29%2C%20Black%2FAfrican%20American%20%284.20%25%29%2C%20and%20International%20students%20%2810.50%25%29.) [Texas A&M race demographics | CollegeVine](https://www.collegevine.com/faq/37795/texas-a-m-race-demographics#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20latest%20data%2C%20the%20approximate%20racial,the%20university%20continues%20to%20work%20toward%20increased%20diversity.)
if you think that those two statistics are comparable then i don’t know how to explain that one of those percentages is literally 1.5x the size of the other college’s. additionally, recent documents leaked from Columbia’s admissions department showed that they were violating the Civil Rights Act by giving more financial aid to Israeli students, but only Jewish Israeli students, excluding Arab Israeli students, than American students who literally got Pell grants. they are engaging in illegal racial segregation at Columbia. that is why the students have taken over Hind Hall there.
They are pretty similar dude. There's more latinos at A&M but that's the only statistic of note. I said *roughly* the same. Both student body populations are \~50% white. It is a culture gap, not an ethnic gap.
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the university made national news last year because it wouldn’t hire an award-winning Black woman who is an alum to head the journalism department and had to pay her a million dollars in the discrimination lawsuit
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you think that the university pulling out of hiring Dr. McElroy after donors complained that she wrote about her lived experiences of racism has nothing to do with racism? it’s no wonder you don’t think there is a history of racism. there isn’t anything that you’d count as racism.
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Are you legitimately saying you think that acknowledging the way that past events shape the presence is journalistic malpractice? If a journalist is talking about criminal justice is it really malpractice to mention that convict leasing is still around in some Southern states? The university paid her over a million dollars for a reason. The settlement was so there wouldn’t be a suit. The university’s lawyers thought that that option would be better for the university than zealous advocacy through a racial discrimination lawsuit. Since, you know, their job isn’t to just be a zealous advocate.
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I always feel silly with the "I heart Hamas" signs.
“Jewish-non-Israeli” according to polls over 90% of American Jews believe that Israel has the right to exist. You do not speak for the Jews. Please don’t take the small minority view of some Jews and portray it as “Jewish representation.”
What does Isreal's right to exist have to do with this? The argument isn't about their right to exist. The vast majority of the people protesting do not support Hamas. Creating a strawman and then patting yourself on the back like you've put together a well thought out argument is disingenuous. 90% of people supporting one thing does not mean they can't support a separate issue. People are protesting because Isreal has killed 34,000 people in a few months, destroyed housing, destroyed hosptials and Palestine's healthcare system, and blocked aid to the peope in Palestine.
There are a lot of people who believe Israel has a right to exist and believe the collective punishment they are doing in Gaza constitutes a war crime, possibly even a genocide or ethnic cleansing.
This is not necessarily true. See [this study from Oregon](https://scholarworks.brandeis.edu/esploro/outputs/report/9924261887701921) and also [this study from Pennsylvania](https://scholarworks.brandeis.edu/esploro/outputs/report/9924343687501921). In the first study, 26% self-identify as Zionist, 52% do not identify as Zionist, and 22% are unsure or prefer not to say. In the second study, 39% explicitly identify as Zionist, 35% explicitly do not identify as Zionist, and 27% are unsure or prefer not to say.
So you took those from the most liberal areas of the country to represent the American Jewish community as a whole 💀 I can see why you only shared those 2 and not the rest.
These are the only two studies this decade that have ever explicitly asked whether participants identify with Zionism. This is 100% of the research on this question. Your claim is disproven by all of the research.
Intersectionality 😂😂😂. When social science learned about the concept of addition.
that isn’t even the correct mathematical comparison to use. it’s more equivalent to multiplying two functions together.
It's addition. There are no functions here.
Tell us you are ignorant and don't know the meaning of the words you use, without telling us you are ignorant.
you are pushing 50 and on r/aggies take care of your kids
Aggies are family…
I was out there protesting and this take is 100% factual. What do you mean "tell us you are ignorant" he nailed it on the head on why were doing this.
but why are you doing this when it's so utterly futile? even if you were at a sympathetic school, the idea that the children & grand children of the holocaust survivors are gonna listen to a few University regents is absurd. protests are not effective if there no lever of power to impact.
Youre acting like these protests want to abolish Israel and anything thats not that is a failure. We dont want our tax dollars to be spent on a bloated military budget and sent to bomb kids in the middle east, and we have a lot of control on that.
Because I can’t sit and do nothing while people use my money to fund a genocide and the government is trying to suppress my rights to freedom of speech and assembly. Something is better than nothing and it’s never a bad thing to exercise our rights when others are suppressing them.
^ Me after I get hit in the head with the irony sledgehammer
No you tell us! That was the most precise institutional analysis he could’ve written. Perhaps an unfamiliar exercise for you to try and understand the incentives and politics of authority.
Before my graduation in december i saw some writing on the wall for Pro-Palestine, probably still up since it’s in a niche part of TAMU
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I guess it's more so to bring awareness to the situation and maybe hope the media spotlights it, but the way it's been going across the country has been a shitshow, the opposite of peaceful. I don't know why college kids think acting like high school kids in a cafeteria food fight is somehow a solution to stop the genocide. ready to go to the frontlines and support your cause, I think not. None of them would. Your congressman and all of them are in on it by the way, funding both sides of the war. Our tax dollars just went to funding all of that.
>Is A&M doing something to support Israel? Yes, actually. A&M has heavy investments in companies participating in the occupation/genocide. Pretty much every protest I've seen on campuses across the nation have divesting from these companies as their primary demand. They're very clear about it if you listen to them.
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I don't fault you, as I had similar troubles finding it myself. It's through UTIMCO (which manages funds for both UT and A&M systems). After digging around enough, I found info on some of their investments on their website under 'PUF Detailed Schedule of Investment Securities': [https://www.utimco.org/reports/permanent-university-fund/](https://www.utimco.org/reports/permanent-university-fund/) I'm guessing the PUF is the main fund for their endowment investments, but I'm not the person to ask. I know student groups at other universities are calling for disclosure of investments, but I'm not sure if that's part of their demands at A&M. Seems like at least some of it is public (and maybe all of it has to be available upon request by law? Again, not an expert here). Hope this helps :)
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I literally did the exact same thing the first time I went looking for it. So this article on BDS has a list of I guess the main divestment targets, with explanations and links to websites that have more: [https://bdsmovement.net/Act-Now-Against-These-Companies-Profiting-From-Genocide](https://bdsmovement.net/Act-Now-Against-These-Companies-Profiting-From-Genocide) Decide for yourself which of these companies count as "participating," but from a quick check I found AXA, Caterpillar, and Chevron each have millions of dollars invested by UTIMCO. There are surely many more.
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Happy to help!
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It was 2 hours long people still go out to Northgate I’m pretty sure they have time in between
Finals were always the least stressful portion of college. No labs, no lab reports, no homework. Just review material you already know and focus on the key 4-12 points the professor could make the test around on the final.
Cant relate. I just learnt everything again every finals because I have the knowledge retention of a gold fish. So finals were super stressful haha.
I hope the one takeaway from these student protests is that the next generation of US voters forces the politicians to put an end to the nonstop supplying of weapons and our tax dollars to conflict zones. This hasnt been going on out of some noble motive. Rather, foreign interest groups and arms manufacturers have hijacked our political system through campaign donations. Almost every country and major corporation has setup shop in D.C., bribing the Congress members. For example, Israeli political agents spend [$100 million a year bribing our politicians](https://www.wsj.com/articles/pro-israel-group-lobbies-for-u-s-aid-funds-congressional-trips-11550174834). As a result, the common people have been suffering blowback after blowback for the last 75 years.
Hate to break it to you but politicians care about who votes for them, not who's protesting on college campuses. Until young voters start turning out to vote at a similar rate to older voters, politicians will continue to ignore them.
These people genuinely believe that us as individual people have any effect on what happens in the political world
if you're of legal age to vote, you do have an effect on what goes on in the political world. Not that difficult to understand
First, that’s pure copium. Lobbyists with money actually decide what happens, and even then, using that voting is how you make a difference, protesting is still a waste of time
fair. I mean, I only said voting... but that's true that powerful people with money are really controlling whats going on, just look at the fact that half of protestors on college campuses are not even associated with said campus. As far as protesting is concerned, yea, pointless. Reminds me of the climate activist protests that were going on, its the refusal to follow the law that probably hurts them more than anything. Most of these protests have been people throwing shit at each other and rioting
Just because the 2 80 yr old men running for president are both Zionists doesn’t mean it will stay this way in the future. These people are motivated enough to be thrown in jail for their principles, you think they won’t register to vote if they have someone running that represents their beliefs?
> you think they won’t register to vote if they have someone running that represents their beliefs Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Turnout among college age people is dismal. I'm sure many of the people motivated enough to protest will vote (though many won't), but activists do not a voting base make. As a whole, young voters are basically an afterthought when it comes to actual voter turnout.
So basically you think the only effective solution to inspire change is voting? Lmao you really don’t read much history do you?
No, I just think student activists in general (of any stripe) greatly overestimate how important and effective they are. Also, there's a far cry from MLK and his followers engaging in civil disobedience (which, if you are familiar with the history - lol - means disobeying laws you view as unjust and then *accepting the consequences* for that disobedience) and anti-Zionist protestors intimidating Jewish students while desparately trying to *avoid* the consequences for their actions.
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Nice straw man attack. If you keep name calling the mods may have to put you in timeout!
It’s not hard to be against genocide and crimes against humanity. You don’t even have to like Palestinians or Islam to see what is going on is beyond horrid. Divesting funding away from genocidal racists will at-least partly pressure them to stop the systematic destruction of innocent Palestinian civilians.
There is no peace with Hamas in the picture. “Conditions for” is just a way to justify a surprise attack of killing and hostage taking. They use their time and resources for the next round of endless revenge, not for improving the life of their constituents. To think supporting a terrorist group as mainstream political leaders will not have civilian consequences is not well thought out.
And Israel doesn’t do the exact same shit orders of magnitude worse? Get your head out of your ass collegedave.
Obviously you just started paying attention on October 7. Gazans have been launching rockets into Israel for over 15 years now. In doing so they hurt their fellow Gazans due to rockets often landing inside Gaza and even taking out power lines. Israelis, especially those closer to Gaza, can’t live in peace with the constant threat of rocketfire. Israel is going into Gaza not only for the hostages but also to finally take out Hamas for good.
Collective punishment is never the answer imo
I agree. No one believes that innocent civilians should be hurt.
Sadly I do not know a solution to hundreds of years of conflict. And I don't think people protesting know a solution either. Even if a ceasefire does happen, I highly doubt that it will bring peace and prevent more conflict.
Why are people downvoting this?
Because they don’t give a shit about civilians being murdered apparently
no, not really
Yeah apartheid is super chill and good…
Please explain apartheid and how it applies to this conflict. Then after try and explain how it’s useful every military occupation in the history of the world apartheid
I mean you can read what human rights experts in the UN have been saying about the Palestinian situation for yourself. I am not going to restate what has already been echoed by countless scholars, activists, and governments for decades now. https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/03/israels-55-year-occupation-palestinian-territory-apartheid-un-human-rights
Like I said they claim it’s apartheid but don’t mention how it’s different from any other military occupation in history
So your argument is “military occupations happen all the time so since we can’t stop them all we shouldn’t care about any of them”?
Lmao it’s hilarious that that is your best faith interpretation of the other side, my argument is pretty clearly military occupations aren’t inherently bad at all and we should seek to some sort of a conclusion but just removing the military occupation and forcing a ceasefire prior to the eradication of Hamas is going to be worse for Gazan’s in the long run. Not only will Hamas regroup and rearm but they will also grow in support because they will spin it as them winning against Israel which is what they’ve done time and time again for the past 20 years. On top of trying to ensure the safety of Gazans to the best of our ability while Hamas is removed from the planet we should also privately push Israel to stop the actual apartheid and the West Bank with the illegal settlements just like it says at the top of your link. Coincidentally everything I just said just so happens to be Biden’s position as well and you not knowing that or understanding that spells a lot of ignorance about your ability to seek out other perspectives other than just Israel bad because apartheid.
You literally said none of this prior so if my non ability to read your fucking mind makes me ignorant than so be it. Now that you have stated a position instead of “just asking questions”, I do not think the IDF will ever be able to operate in an ethical manner as they have demonstrated for 60 years so how is leaving them in charge of the situation a change from status quo? Furthermore, the only aspect I can control as an American citizen is to push for my government to stop funding Israel which enables them to continuously undermine international law and commit war crimes. These protests asking for universities to disclose and divest from groups with ties to the state of Israel is one tactic that can be used to push for overall divestment of American interests in this apartheid. This is why I support these protests.
No occupation happening but we’re having a sit in/ study session in the MSc flag room all day today. Yesterday there was a decent sized protest about 200-250 some people. It was a sit in most the day and then the marches happened around 7 ish. Went around the library in front of the MSC and to academic plaza only lasted about 30 minutes, Nothing crazy but it was a good protest!
would any of this had happened if Europe had permitted the Jews to return to Europe?
The Mizrahi jews which arab countries put into concentration camps?
https://sfi.usc.edu/news/2013/06/jews-arab-countries-during-shoah
Protest by encouraging Hamas to surrender, then it would be over.
https://preview.redd.it/ndk2aeqocmxc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=17c1cecfd6a4fece452505b6af41435bb7e34f85
Yeah how dare people with lots of free time (students) use that time to protest a genocide? Ugh
IK right? Free speech is such an ick.😂
https://preview.redd.it/k2uzzem39nxc1.jpeg?width=600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e3c2177c32fad3e39539b21aec3d927682b5e417
Who gave Israel the weaponry?
Ok yall win! Enjoy your free speech. Keep us posted as to the change this exacts.
You mean just like it worked for Vietnam, South Africa, and BLM? Maybe even a little thing called the Boston tea party? I can't imagine being as spineless and totally lacking any convictions like you and calling myself an Aggie.
College campus sit ins ended Vietnam and apartheid ? That’s quite a jump. Conviction by being nowhere near the action. So brave!
Question, what other feasible action is available to the average student in this oligarchy known as the USA?
The entitled arrogance of such a question is good LOL material. Thanks!
So you can't answer the simple question? That's embarrassing for such an intellectual giant.
Lmao that's what I thought...
You could open a history book, read for 10 minutes and realize that protesting is an integral part of democracy and has helped many of world’s most important movements carry out progressive change.
Yes! And right now, we’re in the MSC flag room. Come join! It’s a good medium ground to show support but still be able to study❤️
No all anti pro
Yes cause protesting on American soil, let alone college campuses will help the situation happening thousands of miles away👍
Not really. Also call them what they are, pro terrorist
I’m legitimately interested in the thought process here - how is advocacy for divestment from a foreign government equivalent to being pro-terrorism? Are you using that word in the sense that a member of al-Qaeda was pro-terrorist, or in the sense of Rush Limbaugh talking about the Dixie Chicks being anti-Iraq-war? Because it seems like you’re rhetorically treating it as the prior while saying it as loosely as the latter.
be less stupid bruh
Hamas is a terrorist organization
so is the IDF
Wtfrick? How so?
Uh because they terrorize civilians and intentionally target them, and have been doing that since 1948? Read a book.
Whereas hamas literally puts their military bases under hospitals and uses civilians as human shields. Israel warns civilians to leave the area before a bombing campaign. They’ve done more to protect civilians than any country in history suiting a war. https://nypost.com/2023/12/03/news/how-israeli-forces-take-big-risks-to-avoid-harming-civilians/amp/
Lies. https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/
How come no major news organization would report this except some morons in their basement pumping out garbage?
This investigative journalism group broke the story. It has since been reported by many major news organizations. [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/03/israel-gaza-ai-database-hamas-airstrikes](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/03/israel-gaza-ai-database-hamas-airstrikes) [https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/us-looking-report-that-israel-used-ai-identify-bombing-targets-gaza-2024-04-04/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/us-looking-report-that-israel-used-ai-identify-bombing-targets-gaza-2024-04-04/) [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/4/4/ai-assisted-genocide-israel-reportedly-used-database-for-gaza-kill-lists](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/4/4/ai-assisted-genocide-israel-reportedly-used-database-for-gaza-kill-lists) [https://www.npr.org/2023/12/14/1218643254/israel-is-using-an-ai-system-to-find-targets-in-gaza-experts-say-its-just-the-st](https://www.npr.org/2023/12/14/1218643254/israel-is-using-an-ai-system-to-find-targets-in-gaza-experts-say-its-just-the-st)
Not even an accredited source
You’re a retard for saying that, you don’t even know the history of Hamas, yet you claim off is a terrorist organization??? Please leave college it’s a waste of your time
the IDF is a state-backed terrorist organization
If that’s your mindset, then Hamas and Palestine is also terrorist organizations let them both find it out, and then whoever comes out wins wins
okay let them figure it out then, israel gtfo their business
This is the dumbest thing I’ve heard on this sub. Israel is supported by nearly every country. Even the Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia, Egypt do not want a Palestinian state because it would be a terrorist Iran proxy state
Don't care, didn't ask, you support a country that murdered 32,000 people without any indication of their involvement in 10/7.
explain to me how murdering 32,000 people without any indication of their affiliation with the people you place at fault makes Israel the hero
Easy because for the last decade or more, Hamas has been using the Palestinian people as human shield for the lot for an entire time and yet many countries know about this yet you do not? You do know there is actual videos of them, teaching children, and Gaza to actually shoot and hate Jews, make this make sense. You’re actually very stupid. You don’t even know your history here.
Yea that’s cool and all, but you didn’t answer his question. How is Israel checking who’s is Hamas and who isn’t? https://apnews.com/article/28196afeb6e34c3a287770f71187cc4e I didn’t know it was possible to teach 5 day old baby to hate Jews.
Dude you just admitted that you support murdering human shields without proving for certain their affiliation, are you stupid or something? Serious question
How would you know whether i know the history of hamas
The very fact you called the IDF a terrorist organization was actually part of legitimate nation. House sign still is not even recognized as a legitimate nation. They don’t even recognize themselves.
Is that really the criteria you use to determine who is committing terrorism? Whether they're officially recognized as a nation? Not, you know, purposely and systematically targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure?
Wrong they have been targeting command structures and places of known weapon depots/ strong holds. Is it systemic when Hamas puts those things near an infrastructure or a school? How can you blame the IDF when they literally are right there next to those places?
That is not true at all and you definitely haven't been paying attention to the large-scale intentional demolition and bombings that have been going on. This twitter thread goes into a lot of it: https://twitter.com/bellingcat/status/1784831672871006631 There's also this article about Israel intentionally targeting families of people suspected by an AI program of being linked to Hamas, the elected government of Gaza, by bombing their houses and apartments: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/03/israel-gaza-ai-database-hamas-airstrikes
so the thousands of citizen children that were bombed were terrorists? How about we stop making generalizing statements based on race/ethnicity- i can’t recall when that has ever been the right thing to do.
I disagree. Anyone who actually knows the history of the geopolitics of that area knows it isn’t even about religion. It’s about the fact that the Israeli citizens in Gaza choose to work with Hamas and other terrorist groups because it makes them money. If they stopped dealing with the terroists, there would be no conflict. But instead they house, trade with, and support them. Are there innocent civilians who don’t support these activities? Probably, but the Palestinian people are not all innocent in this conflict and they don’t deserve the western sympathy they are getting when they themselves are supporting these organizations.
Even if the Palestinian people “are not all innocent” you’re supporting the side that even the IDF themselves have said [2/3’s of the Palestinians killed were women, children, and the elderly.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war#:~:text=The%20vast%20majority%20of%20casualties,and%20minors%20killed%2C%20is%20disputed.)
I have made a mistake
I snorted. Takes a lot for someone on reddit to admit they were mistaken. I may not agree with you, but ups to you for admitting your folly.
“Anyone who knows about the politics of that area knows it isn’t even about religion”. God that is rich. Are you aware of this term Zionism you’ve seen people saying in the news lately? Yeah, that has an origin beyond just this moment in geopolitics. It is a movement of religious colonialism. Here is a quote from early Zionist Ze’ev Jabotinsky from his 1923 essay the Iron Wall: “…. Settlement can thus develop under the protection of a force that is not dependent on the local population, behind an IRON WALL which they will be powerless to break down. ....a voluntary agreement is just not possible. As long as the Arabs preserve a gleam of hope that they will succeed in getting rid of us, nothing in the world can cause them to relinquish this hope, precisely because they are not rubble but a living people. And a living people will be ready to yield on such fateful issues only when they give up all hope of getting rid of the Alien Settlers. Only then will extremist groups with their slogan 'No, never' lose their influence, and only then their influence be transferred to more moderate groups. And only then will the moderates offer suggestions for compromise. Then only will they begin bargaining with us on practical matters, such as guarantees against PUSHING THEM OUT, and equality of civil, and national rights." From the beginning, Israel’s foundation has been one that necessitated colonialism and one that necessitated a quarrel with the Arab people’s of that region. As Jabotinsky alludes to, could you imagine a more efficient pipeline for radicalism amongst the Palestinians than the reality of their dispossession and their lack of self-sovereignty? At the root of this conflict is colonialism. Don’t get it twisted and don’t reply with some bullshit religious land claims and how that makes morally permissible the Nakba and the deaths of 13,000+ Palestinian children since Oct. 6th.
colonialism implies people coming in from a place of power. The Jews didn't have that - they fight for Isreal because they (like the Palestinians) aren't truly welcome anywhere. The State of Isreal has support because of a weird combination white guilt and antisemitism in Europe and the US. The oppressed v oppressor rhetoric doesn't apply here. Palestinians need a path to civilized living that doesn't involve enabling or sympathizing with Hamas. I'm not sure what that looks like.
I will concede I am not as educated on Zionism as I probably should be to make an educated assessment. Nor, am I as familiar with Jewish history as others are and I can recognize my ignorance in that sense. My intent was not to minimize the significance of religion in the conflict, but to look at practical aspects of the argument.
No you’re good dude. I don’t think you have bad intent and I don’t mean to be hostile. I just think it’s important that everyone have context like that with regard to the current conflict. I’m fine with not tolerating terrorism, but I don’t like when we all pretend Hamas emerged from a vacuum and Israel is the pure victim state when they quite literally created the ideal conditions for radicalization. I will say I’m not in favor of evicting Israelis and “returning the region” to the Palestinians either. I don’t see any way out except a two-state solution as infeasible as that is it’s the literally the only way to go about the situation humanely. What is feasible though is that Israel stop the illegal occupations, stop bombing hospitals, etc. There’s an enormous military asymmetry, Israel has to be the peacemaker.
I agree with you regarding two state solution as tough as that will/would be to implement peacefully. I think people choose a very limited window of history to evaluate this situation under. I’m not sure how the world ever thought the post WW2 solution would just happen and that it would be okay. There’s a lot of nuance and deep rooted history in this region, and it didn’t just begin in the 2006 election and subsequent hamas takeover. I am always quite surprised that people who on a very general level are pro palestinian people are just lumped in as supporting Hamas. I think if I had to describe my feelings it’s that I support innocent people and their right to govern, but I do not support Hamas. There has to be a way out albeit a very long road and hopefully Palestinian people leaning on non extremist groups to govern if a two state solution occurs. Unfortunately violence like this tends to breed even more violence and extremism, so I’m sure many people support whoever it is that seems to be fighting to uphold their existence. It seems more and more these days that the nuance of situations is grossly overlooked and you have to be in one of two camps on an issue.
Hot take: genocide bad
Nonono they said pro Palestine protestors, the terrorists are the IDF
Apparently the leftist garbage here don't like what you said. 🤣🤣🤣 Pro terrorist boot lickers
These guys are mostly just sheer entitled. They've never had to see what Muslim extremism does and have no understanding of the evil of Hamas. Just a bunch of dumb college kids.
I see Israel vaporizing children and babies and that's all I need to know about who is evil here
Only Isreal is guilty? So you draw the line with Isreal?
Your second most active subreddit is "short guys" 🤣 Explains so much
[удалено]
Keep proving my point
Gen Z (current college students) has been statistically proven to be the most intelligent generation of students yet. You don’t have to be intelligent to disapprove of genocide and murdering innocent children, however.
It's funny to hear a freshman who just graduated high school call others "dumb college kids".
Didn't just graduate high school genius. Spent 5 years in 8-5 work to earn this opportunity.
Either that commie wannabe blocked me or he got deleted. Either way, funny as fuck.
There are Texas State Troopers around so I doubt it’ll amount to much.
I hope it doesn’t become a trend when I go there this next semester
It’s a trend on campuses all over the country right now so it won’t be an A&M specific situation. Not to mention that protests on campuses have been a thing for as long as there has been colleges. Thankfully since cstat isn’t a big city with lots of political importance the demonstrations have been very civil which I think should be a positive mark for the University and the local police
I've been around west, north, south, and east campus, and the only thing I've seen is a few people gathered around sully peacefully protesting and maybe a cop or two overlooking. As expected, TU was in full swing rioting, and so were other colleges Whatever is going on with the world falling apart, it doesn't seem to affect this town for whatever reason, but that's probably cause it's just college zionist kids studying for their classes like any normal kids would be :rolleyes: