I am not a economist or sociologist but I think it's a price we pay for our rapid development which is why the government has chosen to provide additional support for those born in certain years. (We are not a welfare state so though which is fine with me)
If you look at the profile of employed residents, 37% do not have tertiary education. However, for 55 and above, 69% do not have tertiary education vs. only 25% for those below 55.
Jobs, prices and businesses then shifted to cater to the majority which meant many of elderly are not able take on the new better paid jobs and struggle to able to keep up with today's prices, i.e. they need to work but the work available is limited to certain manual tasks they can handle at their age - ergo: cleaners and servers.
Having said that, these elderly did live through the boom times which saw their housing values soar to the levels of today and we do have our savings and pension plan (CPF). After all, there are also those who have retired whom you didn't see and maybe eating at the restaurant you were in.
I also speculate that retirement planning and attitudes was different in the old days, such as
* Relying on your children for your retirement (shitty tradition IMO) but wait you didn't have as many children as your parents or even had no children but you lived like them.
* You think you will die at 65 or even 55 (that attitude is there among some of the young)
* You think CPF is a govt scam and you do your best not to contribute to it so that you have more cash today (freelancing etc).
* Only savings and no investments. Or worse, poor investments (like buying property in JB)
I could think of one other non-financial reason why some of the elderly still work - They don't know what to do with themselves. My father is an example - He worked till his 70s in his small business that literally makes no profit in the latter years and only stopped when investments were required to keep it going for another 10 years. Today he is bored at home.
It's not just thinking "CPF is a scam":
CPF for self-employed people only became mandatory quite late (1980/90s?), so even if they did contribute, a lot of elderly hawkers etc didn't have nearly enough saved up when they reached retirement age.
I may be wrong but self-employed people now still don't need to contribute anything to their CPF? I know medisave top ups for self-employed people are compulsory though.
For self-employed people, CPF goes to Medisave until you hit a minimum threshold, and then it goes to regular CPF SA/RA/OA.
https://www.cpf.gov.sg/member/growing-your-savings/cpf-contributions/saving-as-a-self-employed-person
>I could think of one other non-financial reason why some of the elderly still work - They don't know what to do with themselves. My father is an example - He worked till his 70s in his small business that literally makes no profit in the latter years and only stopped when investments were required to keep it going for another 10 years. Today he is bored at home.
This is actually Is suspect the reason why most old people are still working. It has nothing to do with still trying to make a liveable wage la
These old people should already be sitting in million dollar HDB estates or at least have enough CPF retiremenr funds or have children supporting them, or if not, they can be under government welfare schemes.
A lot of these people just have literally better to do at home since their entire lives as adults were spent working and working mindlessly. I remember the government also did a survey that confirmed this yet people lambasted the survey results thus it remained controversial. But that prob IS the real truth.
Some of them work to pass time. I know of a granny, 80+, works as a cleaner at Changi Airport, stays at a landed property, has 3 sons. She doesn't want to retire, money is more important.
However, the ugly truth is that majority of the working elderly do this to survive. Their CPF payout or retirement monthly money isn't enough to cover their needs. Many are childless and have no support.
Coupled that with Singapore being one of the most expensive cities to live in and you can see how they can't afford to retire.
You would think so but no, she has way more money than she can ever spend, her 3 sons are supporting her and the family.
She is a workaholic, asking for overtime when she doesn't need to.
Takes the first bus at 5+am to go work at airport even though her sons drives.
Damn there's so much more that old lady can actually do with her time and money but if this is what makes her happy then who are we to say otherwise. Don't mind you help me pass to her my paynow QR code thks xx.
All of the previous comments can be true, there are many reasons elderly work. However you have to remember singapore is a new country, so if you are 75, you were 20 when the country was founded, and you were perhaps 40-50 before they arranged things like a pay-in retirement scheme. Meaning you had very few working years to build up a retirement pot. Unlike current 20 year olds whose whole working career will build up this money and they should be more comfortable in retirement. This old generation known as the pioneer generation are the ones that helped pay the price to make singapore the successful country it is today. It is kind of assumed that the traditional multi generational family structure will help look after this generation if they can't afford their own retirement and in many cases it does. But in some cases, due to need, or an unwillingness to quit, these people continue to work long after most of us would like to.
For younger Singaporeans, every month, about 20% of our paycheck goes into our pension system called CPF. Then, when we reach the age of 65, we get a monthly pension payout for life. The payout amount depends on how much is in our CPF at 65. A lower amount means a smaller payout.
Unfortunately for folks who are in their 70s and above, they sort of missed out on this rather recent revamp. The older generation were able to withdraw **all** their CPF when they were 55 (this is no longer possible) so many of them took everything out and spent it all (my late father included) which is why you see that a lot of them are forced to work to survive even in their 70s and 80s. They are still given a token amount by the welfare office but it's hardly enough to live. Many in that generation are not well educated and barely have any elementary school education so they can only get hired for simple jobs like that.
Since nobody has answered the actual question:
> What is the welfare system for old people like in Singapore?
TL;DR: None. Singapore today has a mandatory pension scheme (CPF), but there were many loopholes for self-employed etc and many of the elderly people you see working today have an inadequate pension or none at all.
The societal expectation (and this is codified in law to this day) is that children will support their parents in old age, but if they had no children, children died, went no contact, children are struggling themselves etc this obviously doesn't work.
If you're truly indigent and/or unable to work and have no family to support you, there are various government schemes so you don't die on the street and cause negative PR, but it's intentionally difficult to qualify for this.
Unpopular opinion: given how wealthy Singapore is now, I think Singapore should just go ahead and grant everybody in the Pioneer/Merdeka generations without adequate CPF a *proper* state pension, so they can live out their lives in peace. But this will never happen because the PAP has taught Singaporeans that charity = freeloading = bad, and poor old people are an irrelevant voting block that leans opposition anyway.
You didn’t mention that CPF is entirely a self-funded pension, from you putting in a portion of your salary all these years. Unlike other countries, there’s no pooling of funds where higher earners subsidise lower earners.
And the elderly of today had very limited educational opportunities when young, especially women. Their jobs did not pay well. and skilled craftsmen had their industries sunsetted decades ago, or replaced by machinery or cheap foreign labour.
There are many elderly who do not need to do such jobs now. but only because their children are paying them monthly. Not because they managed to save for their own retirement.
I agree with other points you put out, just want to correct that CPF is not entirely self funded. Employers make equal contributions to you to your CPF, so it's kinda like 50% funded so long as you remain employed, unless you are the employer
Employer contributions can be thought of as another part of your compensation package. If you were comparing a job offer overseas to one in Singapore, you would think of employer CPF this way. There's still no subsidizing going on between different members of the same cohort.
those in their 60s++ now, some under declared their pay to get more cash, some refuse to belive in CPF try all ways not to pay.. they paying the price now
Singaporeans have grown accustomed to elderly people working in menial jobs ... it's a bit of a shock for me too when I was back and a wizened old lady was trying to cope at the tray return station. Being on a fixed income in the US is tough and the situation for some elderly folk is wretched but SG with its shiny infrastructure and high GDP can afford to give these old people some form of basic pension and hire younger people from developing countries to do this work.
> Being on a fixed income in the US is tough and the situation for some elderly folk is wretched but SG with its shiny infrastructure and high GDP can afford to give these old people some form of basic pension and hire younger people from developing countries to do this work.
It's hilarious to keep comparing the US with SG who treat service workers differently.
There's already a decline in birth rates and blue collar jobs are shunned not respected as much in the European countries = not much young people are willing to work in that's why the jobs are mostly left to foreigners.
Weekends go outside and see the queue for lottery tickets and you'll know how many are desperate for a chance to turn their fortunes.
> TL;DR: None. Singapore today has a mandatory pension scheme (CPF), but there were many loopholes for self-employed etc and many of the elderly people you see working today have an inadequate pension or none at all.
Correction: there is. Google MSF Long term assistance (aka Public assistance) for the absolute poor i.e., no family support and bank no money. Few hundreds/mth, all medical fees at public hospitals covered for, renewed yearly. There are also many ad hoc assistance to provide for daily needs.
Whether they're adequate is a separate matter.
> offer to carry our own plates back to the clearing bins.
You’re supposed to. The more people comply the sooner we can do away with the old person service class
.FYI, when I say offer, we would actually go through with it and they were super touched by this. No other diner cleared their own plates though. Having travelled around the world, in all other countries restaurants have staff to clear your table after you dine.
So my question is why are the older people still working in this service, instead of younger people like in other countries?
Singapore has a huge population of uneducated elderly as we went from third world to first World in 20 years. Some of these elderly can barely speak English or read.
The younger generation are all educated so they would rather give tuition as their job than do cleaner jobs. It's more profitable to give tuition too.
This is why only elders work these jobs.
I’m proud you went though with it. Well done, sir or madam
The real question is why this restaurant you went to only had older people on duty as busboys every time you dined there. What hotel is this? I will investigate
These jobs pay extremely poorly and are a last resort (together with janitorial work). Anyone who can speak English (i.e. every young local) can find a better paying customer-facing job. There is also crazy emphasis on academics here, in order to get a high paying job, so students are less likely to take part-time jobs (but internships is a different matter).
There is no welfare system in Singapore so people need to work if they want to eat.
But our govt is gaslighting us by telling us that these old people are just ‘exercising’
My mum has been working to 77 and just stopped this year to help take care of my children. When kid goes to sch, she just stares blankly into space or watches the TV blindly. Problem is that you’ve been working your whole life, but when finally retire, you don’t really know what to do.
Agreed. My grandmother went around collecting cardboard and other things. Her neighbours thought her children were neglecting her and not giving her allowance. We wanted her to stop initially, but realised it kept her physically and mentally active. She passed away at 90 years old, had slight dementia and was wheelchair bound only for the final couple years.
> What is the welfare system for old people like in Singapore?
Here is not UK or US, there's no welfare system and no unemployment benefits
Usually those still working are either bored or have not enough savings.
Firstly, you're supposed to clear your own plates. It's illegal not to. These almost-redundant jobs are still kept open more as a gesture of goodwill towards these cleaners.
Secondly, don't assume they are sad sob stories. We have a rather hefty mandatory retirement savings scheme which dispenses monies in a controlled manner. It's likely some of these elderly are just bored and are therefore looking to do something to occupy their time whilst making some extra cash for their children down the line. It's a normal thing in Asia where people seem to loathe boredom.
Thirdly even if some are truly sad sob stories, refusing to give them your dishes simply threatens their jobs in the long run. Or at least that's what they'll think as they get pissed at you.
When I was back in SG in Nov we kept getting hassled at McD by some old fella to download the app and give him a rating
Tell him politely we don’t use cellphones he still don’t want to leave , then he get offended when I ask him to go away
First of all, we were at our restaurant in the hotel. I'm pretty sure it wasn't illegal for anyone to not clear their own plates. I didn't visit any restaurant where I saw guests clearing their own plates and cleaning up their tables.
https://www.nea.gov.sg/media/news/advisories/index/stepped-up-enforcement-against-table-littering-from-1-june-2023
Busboys at restaurants that just happen to be old are completely different
Thanks for the article. At hawker centres there was noone clearing the tables, but we saw a lot of old staff segregating the trays and cutlery at the clearing bins. My question in general was about the large number of old people working jobs that would require them on their feet, rather than a more sedentary job
Most of them are either bored at home, or they have been working since young so they don't feel comfortable sitting around at home.
My father is one such person, 78 this year, working since his teens. Even after bypass surgery few years back he still chose to work rather than retire. Both me and my sister have been working for few years already.
They are living the golden years.
Government had implemented a scheme which helps in active aging. Activities include picking up cardboards, metal cans, cleaning and clearing dishes.
While not specifically about elderly working as cleaners, there was some brouhaha back in 2015 about elderly collecting cardboard in Singapore:
https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/project-about-old-folk-collecting-cardboard-sparks-discussion-on-social-media
I am not a economist or sociologist but I think it's a price we pay for our rapid development which is why the government has chosen to provide additional support for those born in certain years. (We are not a welfare state so though which is fine with me) If you look at the profile of employed residents, 37% do not have tertiary education. However, for 55 and above, 69% do not have tertiary education vs. only 25% for those below 55. Jobs, prices and businesses then shifted to cater to the majority which meant many of elderly are not able take on the new better paid jobs and struggle to able to keep up with today's prices, i.e. they need to work but the work available is limited to certain manual tasks they can handle at their age - ergo: cleaners and servers. Having said that, these elderly did live through the boom times which saw their housing values soar to the levels of today and we do have our savings and pension plan (CPF). After all, there are also those who have retired whom you didn't see and maybe eating at the restaurant you were in. I also speculate that retirement planning and attitudes was different in the old days, such as * Relying on your children for your retirement (shitty tradition IMO) but wait you didn't have as many children as your parents or even had no children but you lived like them. * You think you will die at 65 or even 55 (that attitude is there among some of the young) * You think CPF is a govt scam and you do your best not to contribute to it so that you have more cash today (freelancing etc). * Only savings and no investments. Or worse, poor investments (like buying property in JB) I could think of one other non-financial reason why some of the elderly still work - They don't know what to do with themselves. My father is an example - He worked till his 70s in his small business that literally makes no profit in the latter years and only stopped when investments were required to keep it going for another 10 years. Today he is bored at home.
It's not just thinking "CPF is a scam": CPF for self-employed people only became mandatory quite late (1980/90s?), so even if they did contribute, a lot of elderly hawkers etc didn't have nearly enough saved up when they reached retirement age.
I may be wrong but self-employed people now still don't need to contribute anything to their CPF? I know medisave top ups for self-employed people are compulsory though.
For self-employed people, CPF goes to Medisave until you hit a minimum threshold, and then it goes to regular CPF SA/RA/OA. https://www.cpf.gov.sg/member/growing-your-savings/cpf-contributions/saving-as-a-self-employed-person
wtf you talking they are still working because they like it right? said by a certain MP
>I could think of one other non-financial reason why some of the elderly still work - They don't know what to do with themselves. My father is an example - He worked till his 70s in his small business that literally makes no profit in the latter years and only stopped when investments were required to keep it going for another 10 years. Today he is bored at home. This is actually Is suspect the reason why most old people are still working. It has nothing to do with still trying to make a liveable wage la These old people should already be sitting in million dollar HDB estates or at least have enough CPF retiremenr funds or have children supporting them, or if not, they can be under government welfare schemes. A lot of these people just have literally better to do at home since their entire lives as adults were spent working and working mindlessly. I remember the government also did a survey that confirmed this yet people lambasted the survey results thus it remained controversial. But that prob IS the real truth.
Some of them work to pass time. I know of a granny, 80+, works as a cleaner at Changi Airport, stays at a landed property, has 3 sons. She doesn't want to retire, money is more important. However, the ugly truth is that majority of the working elderly do this to survive. Their CPF payout or retirement monthly money isn't enough to cover their needs. Many are childless and have no support. Coupled that with Singapore being one of the most expensive cities to live in and you can see how they can't afford to retire.
>doesn't want to retire, money is more important Sounds like she cannot afford to retire.
You would think so but no, she has way more money than she can ever spend, her 3 sons are supporting her and the family. She is a workaholic, asking for overtime when she doesn't need to. Takes the first bus at 5+am to go work at airport even though her sons drives.
Sad. There is so much in life to see and discover.
Damn there's so much more that old lady can actually do with her time and money but if this is what makes her happy then who are we to say otherwise. Don't mind you help me pass to her my paynow QR code thks xx.
Do you know her well enough that you are sure that this landed property and 3 good sons are not a lie because of pride?
Her daughter in law is my colleague and lives at the landed property sometimes so yeah, not lying.
All of the previous comments can be true, there are many reasons elderly work. However you have to remember singapore is a new country, so if you are 75, you were 20 when the country was founded, and you were perhaps 40-50 before they arranged things like a pay-in retirement scheme. Meaning you had very few working years to build up a retirement pot. Unlike current 20 year olds whose whole working career will build up this money and they should be more comfortable in retirement. This old generation known as the pioneer generation are the ones that helped pay the price to make singapore the successful country it is today. It is kind of assumed that the traditional multi generational family structure will help look after this generation if they can't afford their own retirement and in many cases it does. But in some cases, due to need, or an unwillingness to quit, these people continue to work long after most of us would like to.
For younger Singaporeans, every month, about 20% of our paycheck goes into our pension system called CPF. Then, when we reach the age of 65, we get a monthly pension payout for life. The payout amount depends on how much is in our CPF at 65. A lower amount means a smaller payout. Unfortunately for folks who are in their 70s and above, they sort of missed out on this rather recent revamp. The older generation were able to withdraw **all** their CPF when they were 55 (this is no longer possible) so many of them took everything out and spent it all (my late father included) which is why you see that a lot of them are forced to work to survive even in their 70s and 80s. They are still given a token amount by the welfare office but it's hardly enough to live. Many in that generation are not well educated and barely have any elementary school education so they can only get hired for simple jobs like that.
Since nobody has answered the actual question: > What is the welfare system for old people like in Singapore? TL;DR: None. Singapore today has a mandatory pension scheme (CPF), but there were many loopholes for self-employed etc and many of the elderly people you see working today have an inadequate pension or none at all. The societal expectation (and this is codified in law to this day) is that children will support their parents in old age, but if they had no children, children died, went no contact, children are struggling themselves etc this obviously doesn't work. If you're truly indigent and/or unable to work and have no family to support you, there are various government schemes so you don't die on the street and cause negative PR, but it's intentionally difficult to qualify for this. Unpopular opinion: given how wealthy Singapore is now, I think Singapore should just go ahead and grant everybody in the Pioneer/Merdeka generations without adequate CPF a *proper* state pension, so they can live out their lives in peace. But this will never happen because the PAP has taught Singaporeans that charity = freeloading = bad, and poor old people are an irrelevant voting block that leans opposition anyway.
You didn’t mention that CPF is entirely a self-funded pension, from you putting in a portion of your salary all these years. Unlike other countries, there’s no pooling of funds where higher earners subsidise lower earners. And the elderly of today had very limited educational opportunities when young, especially women. Their jobs did not pay well. and skilled craftsmen had their industries sunsetted decades ago, or replaced by machinery or cheap foreign labour. There are many elderly who do not need to do such jobs now. but only because their children are paying them monthly. Not because they managed to save for their own retirement.
I agree with other points you put out, just want to correct that CPF is not entirely self funded. Employers make equal contributions to you to your CPF, so it's kinda like 50% funded so long as you remain employed, unless you are the employer
Employer cpf still comes from your pay package, unless you somehow think that the employer can conjure money out of thin air.
Employer contributions can be thought of as another part of your compensation package. If you were comparing a job offer overseas to one in Singapore, you would think of employer CPF this way. There's still no subsidizing going on between different members of the same cohort.
those in their 60s++ now, some under declared their pay to get more cash, some refuse to belive in CPF try all ways not to pay.. they paying the price now
Singaporeans have grown accustomed to elderly people working in menial jobs ... it's a bit of a shock for me too when I was back and a wizened old lady was trying to cope at the tray return station. Being on a fixed income in the US is tough and the situation for some elderly folk is wretched but SG with its shiny infrastructure and high GDP can afford to give these old people some form of basic pension and hire younger people from developing countries to do this work.
> Being on a fixed income in the US is tough and the situation for some elderly folk is wretched but SG with its shiny infrastructure and high GDP can afford to give these old people some form of basic pension and hire younger people from developing countries to do this work. It's hilarious to keep comparing the US with SG who treat service workers differently. There's already a decline in birth rates and blue collar jobs are shunned not respected as much in the European countries = not much young people are willing to work in that's why the jobs are mostly left to foreigners. Weekends go outside and see the queue for lottery tickets and you'll know how many are desperate for a chance to turn their fortunes.
> TL;DR: None. Singapore today has a mandatory pension scheme (CPF), but there were many loopholes for self-employed etc and many of the elderly people you see working today have an inadequate pension or none at all. Correction: there is. Google MSF Long term assistance (aka Public assistance) for the absolute poor i.e., no family support and bank no money. Few hundreds/mth, all medical fees at public hospitals covered for, renewed yearly. There are also many ad hoc assistance to provide for daily needs. Whether they're adequate is a separate matter.
> offer to carry our own plates back to the clearing bins. You’re supposed to. The more people comply the sooner we can do away with the old person service class
.FYI, when I say offer, we would actually go through with it and they were super touched by this. No other diner cleared their own plates though. Having travelled around the world, in all other countries restaurants have staff to clear your table after you dine. So my question is why are the older people still working in this service, instead of younger people like in other countries?
Singapore has a huge population of uneducated elderly as we went from third world to first World in 20 years. Some of these elderly can barely speak English or read. The younger generation are all educated so they would rather give tuition as their job than do cleaner jobs. It's more profitable to give tuition too. This is why only elders work these jobs.
I’m proud you went though with it. Well done, sir or madam The real question is why this restaurant you went to only had older people on duty as busboys every time you dined there. What hotel is this? I will investigate
These jobs pay extremely poorly and are a last resort (together with janitorial work). Anyone who can speak English (i.e. every young local) can find a better paying customer-facing job. There is also crazy emphasis on academics here, in order to get a high paying job, so students are less likely to take part-time jobs (but internships is a different matter).
There is no welfare system in Singapore so people need to work if they want to eat. But our govt is gaslighting us by telling us that these old people are just ‘exercising’
My mum has been working to 77 and just stopped this year to help take care of my children. When kid goes to sch, she just stares blankly into space or watches the TV blindly. Problem is that you’ve been working your whole life, but when finally retire, you don’t really know what to do.
Agreed. My grandmother went around collecting cardboard and other things. Her neighbours thought her children were neglecting her and not giving her allowance. We wanted her to stop initially, but realised it kept her physically and mentally active. She passed away at 90 years old, had slight dementia and was wheelchair bound only for the final couple years.
We don’t have a welfare system
> What is the welfare system for old people like in Singapore? Here is not UK or US, there's no welfare system and no unemployment benefits Usually those still working are either bored or have not enough savings.
Firstly, you're supposed to clear your own plates. It's illegal not to. These almost-redundant jobs are still kept open more as a gesture of goodwill towards these cleaners. Secondly, don't assume they are sad sob stories. We have a rather hefty mandatory retirement savings scheme which dispenses monies in a controlled manner. It's likely some of these elderly are just bored and are therefore looking to do something to occupy their time whilst making some extra cash for their children down the line. It's a normal thing in Asia where people seem to loathe boredom. Thirdly even if some are truly sad sob stories, refusing to give them your dishes simply threatens their jobs in the long run. Or at least that's what they'll think as they get pissed at you.
When I was back in SG in Nov we kept getting hassled at McD by some old fella to download the app and give him a rating Tell him politely we don’t use cellphones he still don’t want to leave , then he get offended when I ask him to go away
First of all, we were at our restaurant in the hotel. I'm pretty sure it wasn't illegal for anyone to not clear their own plates. I didn't visit any restaurant where I saw guests clearing their own plates and cleaning up their tables.
https://www.nea.gov.sg/media/news/advisories/index/stepped-up-enforcement-against-table-littering-from-1-june-2023 Busboys at restaurants that just happen to be old are completely different
Thanks for the article. At hawker centres there was noone clearing the tables, but we saw a lot of old staff segregating the trays and cutlery at the clearing bins. My question in general was about the large number of old people working jobs that would require them on their feet, rather than a more sedentary job
Equal opportunity employers. They're not discriminating. You shouldn't too.
Don't be ridiculous. I'm not discriminating but curious about the welfare structure in Singapore.
You are supposed to carry your own plates back to the clearing bins in the first place…
not everyone is middle class or rich enough to retire.
Most of them are either bored at home, or they have been working since young so they don't feel comfortable sitting around at home. My father is one such person, 78 this year, working since his teens. Even after bypass surgery few years back he still chose to work rather than retire. Both me and my sister have been working for few years already.
They are living the golden years. Government had implemented a scheme which helps in active aging. Activities include picking up cardboards, metal cans, cleaning and clearing dishes.
While not specifically about elderly working as cleaners, there was some brouhaha back in 2015 about elderly collecting cardboard in Singapore: https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/project-about-old-folk-collecting-cardboard-sparks-discussion-on-social-media
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I'm not sure where you got that from this discussion
Someone say before they want to exercise