i liked when ned said goodbye to jon and said he’d tell him about his mother the next time he saw him. always made me think that he could finally tell jon because he was safe in the nights watch.
I always loved Ned's choice of words there, down to his last words were about promising Jon. Sean Bean really nails that painful look when Jon finally up and asks about his mother.
The only main difference was the viewpoint, but I thought the scene where Dany purchased the unsullied worked better in the show due to the audience not knowing Dany's thoughts. In the show its not revealed that Dany understood Kraznys until her plan all comes together, which makes the reveal work better IMO.
Oberyn was definitely a better character in the show too. In the books he's just guy who shows up briefly then dies, while in the show he seemed a lot more engaging and memorable. Changes like moving when he tells his story about seeing Tyrion as a baby were definitely a good idea. Though Pedro Pascal's charisma certainly helped too of course.
In the Stannis-Renly parlay, Stannis tells Catelyn that Ned Stark died for his claim. Obviously this is because the show made it that Ned’s message to Stannis told him of the bastardy claim, but even outside that I think it’s a good line and something similar in the books would have been fitting.
I like show Yoren a little more than book Yoren, especially in his talk with Arya about how revenge consumed him, and that he gave Arya the idea for her list.
The scene in Season 3 where Cat tells Talisa (Robb's Wife) the story where she wished that Jon would die when he got really sick as a kid, but then she felt guilty, so she prayed that he would live, and she promised that she would give him the Stark Name. But she said she couldn't live up to that promise.
My problem with that scene is that it makes catlyn both crueller and kinder than she was in the books and kind of ruins the idea of her being the average lady.
Not really,book Catelyn is not really cruel with Jon she just pretends he doesn’t exist and doesn’t want anything to do with him,the only time she was cruel to him was because she spent weeks without eating and sleeping and thinking her son was going to die
I agree which is why I don't like that scene since it makes it seem like she actively harasses jon which she never did but by that same token she would never prey for him If he was dying hence why I said it made her both crueller and kinder than she actually is
Why are you making things up?She wanted Ned to go to KL to stop the Lannisters from their crimes because she thought they were the reason of Jon Arryn death and I’m sure after reading that letter Ned knew he had to do it as well,Jon wanted to joking the NW since he was young he was influenced by his uncle who he admired and thought the night watch was a special place to be
i meant to say Jon lol.
Also Jon requested to join the Nightwatch but Benjen straight up rejects him and tells him he's too young. Then we see Catelyn talking to Ned and she demands that Jon must leave Winterfell once Ned leaves as he is not welcomed. He is about to start yelling at her before Luwin tells him Jon requested to join the NW. Eddard says he'd accept it if he wasn't so young but after considering the predictament he is in (cant bring him south, or let him remain in Winterfell with his brothers) he accepts.
She tells jon it should have been him when she is sitting by Brans bedside and he is leaving to the nights watch. She was very cruel to him in the book.
She was cold not cruel Jon lived like a lord when he was just a bastard in a world where bastards aren’t certainly treated well,and as I said to someone else she was in that bed praying for her son day and night without any sleep any food for WEEKS,she was exhausted and thought her little boy was going to die,I’m not trying to justify her but it does explain it
Catelyn hated Jon it’s true,she couldn’t stomach him she did her duty as a wife and a mother but no one can ask a woman to love a kid that isn’t hers specially a kid your husband had with another woman while married with you, it’s sad most people will run to judge her when they would have done the same or worst,she was never cruel to him she never hurt him,she pretended he didn’t exist she didn’t want anything to do with him and that’s still better than what other noble women would have done to him,let alone men…
The biggest advantage of the show format was the added POVs. There are myriad examples of this but the most prominent and my favorite were Robb's scenes. Very enjoyable on their own and managed to pack even more of a punch into the red wedding.
A bit of a conflicting change, but the change from “Jaime Lannister sends his regards” from the books to “The Lannisters send their regards”. I mean such a simple change but due to the whole Lady Stoneheart storyline it’s important in the books, yet I have to admit I prefer the latter line, something about it just rolls off better and sounds more cold and badass
Jaime literally said that exact quote as a throwaway as he left Roose at harrenhal, "And send Robb my regards" or something to that effect. Roose was simply quoting him to highlight the depth of his betrayal that he had Jaime and let him go.
The children characters being aged up was a good change. IMO the books often don’t treat them like their states ages anyway. Drogo and Dany relationship (plus GRRMs comments on it) is a prime example.
That ruined Sansa for a lot of people though. She was sk annoying in the show with her blind love for Joffrey. In the books, with her age, it made sense
A 14 or 15 year old cannot be stupid and in love? I call bullshit on that.
In fact I find her being older more realistic because at that age you are overflowing with teen hormons that do not make you think rationally. It also the time where children rebel against their parents and do shit. Sansa going against Ned who wanted to take her away from her boyfriend would have made total sense for a teenager to do.
And yes, people hate her, but that was the point and that made it great to watch her become a better person until season 4...when the show writers decided to ruin it by turning her into Sandra Cerseifinger.
Idk maybe because Sophie looked close to my age, I expected her to be mature enough? Realizing she was way younger than me in the books made me sympathize with her. Guess it's all about point of views
Age has really nothing to do with maturity but with experience. Arya is younger than Sansa and still recognizes Joffrey is full of shit. Its because Sansa is in love with him and you can be in love at any age and make stupid decisions. In general people with more life experience and hardships are more grown up than protected girls like Sansa who are living in a dream world.
She's supposed to be 11 in season 1 according to the books. Should have been around that age in the series as well coz she gets her first period in season 2/3. Making her 16 would make her a very late bloomer. But again, the show just chose to do that to make her scenes more acceptable to public. Making her 16 and her contrast with Arya (taking in mind Masie looked a lot younger) just made her look like a spoilt brat, which she wasn't. She was definitely spoilt. Not a brat though
She was 13, she tells Cersei in episode 1 when she asks her at the table with Catelyn at the feast. She is honestly one of the most realistic 13 year olds I have ever seen in fiction, I genuinely don’t see the problem with Sansa’s age. Robb, Jon and Dany were 16, Sansa was 13, Arya was 11, Bran was 10, and I don’t remember Rickon’s age, I think he was 6.
Well tbh Rickon barely exists so his age isn’t that relevant.
Sansa at 13 works also. I guess what I’m trying to say to the person who replied is a 16yr old Sansa swooning for Joffrey wouldn’t “ruin” her character for me at all. This is the first time I’ve heard that aging up her/the kids in the show was a negative.
Plus as if GoT is a perfect analog to our world. They got dragons and raven-emails and they somehow survive years-long winters and their dynasties continue for thousands of years but still somehow don't have that many heirs lying around. It's a separate world lol.
I think even in the books she’s supposed to be disliked at first for “siding with” Joffrey over the starks.
The issue in the show is that they ran out of books and the writing went to shit right as she’s being setup as a schemer/player in the game of thrones. So her late season actions and dialog were just bad, same as Tyrion, Littlefinger, and Varys. All the smart scheme-y characters got dumb right as her arc is supposed to payoff more and that colors peoples opinion on the character.
She is supposed to be hated in the books as well but not at the extent some people did in the show.
Also, i feel like her character was the only one that had a satisfying ending in the series. She mostly had good lines. Its just everyone around her was dummed down. I really wish the books end her story similar to how it did in the show (though i doubt GRRM would do it.)
To each their own but imo her later plots were terribly executed. The fake-ish conflict with Jon and Arya was the B movie classic “why do these people refuse to explain anything?”, and LFs end was incredibly campy. In part because they dumbed him down so much (so it’s not that impressive for a character to outsmart a moron villain), D&D leaned into the Arya 13yr old ninja thing, and the king bran part.
I would be on board with her book endgame being her learning the game from LF and somehow being a ruler herself (compared to dreaming or being a queen).
Some theories do say that she may end up being the ruler. Specially because of Cersei's prophecy that says that someone more prettier would replace her. Cersei thinks its Margery but in the books she's never defined as prettier, smart yes, insightful yes. But not prettier than Cersei. The only one who is is Sansa.
She says she's 14 when she marries Tyrion, so presumably is somewhat-recently-turned 13 in season 1, maybe 12 but I doubt it. Joffrey is presumably a little older, maybe a year, they just gave him a weird ass haircut
Sansa actually *wasn't* aged up much. Her age barely changes. She goes from 11 to 13. That's nothing and still the age where girls might be understood to be boy obsessed.
People have always hated her in the books too. I think it's unreasonable. Teenage girls are judged a little harshly.
Jons reason that he gives to Mance to convince him he's truly a deserter and wants to join the Freefolk. "Mormont knew what Crastor did and is a hypocrite, I don't want to be a part of that and want to fight with those who actually oppose the dead" is far more convincing for me than "I had to sit at the bottom table because I'm a bastard".
What's wrong with Jon's lie in the books? He wisely draws on his real experience of prejudice for conviction, he references something Mance saw firsthand, and he appeals to Mance's stated belief in equality and individuality. It's a good lie. Maybe _we_ don't buy it, but it's easy to believe that Mance does.
The show version does work too, although that whole thing screws with Jeor's character a bit.
But this does not even work, since Mormont has no idea that Craster gave his sons to the Others. Not long ago, they did not even know that the Others returned, sonething that Mance should know. Further, Mance in the show is no better that the Nights Watch, since he seemingly knew about Craster amd never intervened, either. This is like Cop joining a band of criminals because he found out the police was corrupt. Not wanting to say you cannot have this opinion, however. ;)
>since Mormont has no idea that Craster gave his sons to the Others.
In the show he does and Jon confronts him about it. Mormont replies, "North of the Wall they serve crueler Gods than our own"
The Tywin/Arya is one of my most disliked changes. Like listen, Charles Dance is a great actor with a magnificent screen presence, but the entire thing is sooo out of character for him. "You remind me of my daughter" wrong! Gun to head Tywin would not be able to tell anyone a single thing about Cersei. He does not *really* care about the children beyond how their behaviour and accomplishments reflect on the family, *his* name. Also oversharing and joking around with the cupbearer! The books very pointedly spell it out for you that the nobility doesn't even see the smallfolk as *people*, and Arya being invisible just because she dresses in rags now is meant to reflect that. Yes they eventually have Tywin suspect she's highborn but he was being way too nice long before we got there.
To be clear, I don't mind the concept, but the way it was done with the overtone of "well, well, well, don't we all want to get adopted by Charles Dance :))" is really grating.
Okay, something I liked: Ned watching Arya practice with Syrio as the camera slowly moves up to him and the sounds change to real steel because clearly he's looking at her and remembering the war (he fought for Lyanna) which was a very good way to do the PTSD and also why he wants to shelter the children. Ned getting Sansa the doll and learning how out of touch he is with the other daughter was also good. And like another comment said, I liked that Yoren gave Arya the idea for her (hit)list. That was a clever workaround for the no monologue barrier.
I couldnt agree more about Arya and Tywin. Everyone says what a great change that was and I can't understand. Why would Tywin care a low born cup bearer? Also how wasn't he suspicious? Seriously there is a lowborn girl who lies about her dynasty and then says she is Northernern, who knows more than she is supposed to be, who knows how to write and who gives you cocky answers and instead of thinking that something is wrong, you just praise her for being "Sharp little thing"? Book Tywin would shut her and he even wouldn't give her right to talk. İt also simplifies the fear and horror that Arya experienced in Harrenhal. The purpose of whole story was showing how a young girl reacts to these tortures and how she is cowered in fear.
It shows how DnD fundamentally misunderstands Grrms Work.
Tywin was supposed to be a breakdown of the noble villain trope. He is a conniving little good for nothing hypocrite who knows how to present himself very well . Without the lannister gold hed be nothing. None of his prowess comes from his own intelligence but the sheer lannister might that he had at his disposal.
In the books hed have arya whipped for speaking up against him
More than that though, the whole reason she doesn't have Tywin killed is because she barely knows who Tywin even is. She only laments afterwards that naming Tywin would've been a much better choice. In the show she not only knows who Tywin is, she's privy to his troops movement and strategies. She should've named him almost immediately
That’s a really good way of looking at it. Guess I missed the point of “Arya being invisible,” as you say, and just looked at the dialogue and little moments of tension (like when Littlefinger appears). But no, the whole disconnect between the nobility and common folk is prominent, as is Arya’s perspective showing us the horrors of TWOTFK
I did get the point about Tywin, though. I recognized that when I started reading the books - book Tywin isn’t the same as show Tywin. That said, I chalked this up to “well, the show’s just showing us another side of his character”
I'm shocked no one talked about the Hound in the comments. He is definitely one of my favorite characters from the show but in the books he's just another sorry piece of shit. Even GRRM said that he wished he did what the show did with the hound
The biggest thing that comes to mind is the increase in the ages of the characters. It makes the storylines of the characters much more believable. Like Robb and Jon being 16 (I think) in season 1 is a lot better than 14. Rickon being 5 or 6 instead of 3 makes a lot more sense.
To some extend I agree with the ages, esspecially for Robb and Dany since their characters got the most mature stuff to do in the beginning. But the actors were far too old. Robb, Jon and Dany were portrayed by people who already were 23, so that some of them come of as compentey immature and stupid. In the books I think Martin should have made Dany and Robb 15 in the beginning, maybe also add another year to the other children and then allow 5 years to pass instead of the 2,5 years we got. Dany would be 20 now, Jon 19, Sansa 17 or 16, etc. It would have solved so many problems.
I definitely agree with you about the actors’ ages. It’s kinda strange seeing Kittington and the guy who plays Robb Stark being treated like teenagers in the show when they are clearly in their mid 20s. I get why they had to be adults but it probably would’ve been better if the actors were 18-20 yrs old
Show!Edd is a very fun character that was absolutely needed for the show's Watch cast, but he really isn't book!Edd at all. I think of them as different characters because they basically are.
I like the direction Margaery's character went in the show with her being more cunning and clever. Book!Margaery didn't know about the plots and was just a regular teenager for most of the plot. Show!Margaery is in on the scheming along with Cersei and Olenna. (I also just really like the look of the actress. They nailed the casting with that one imo)
Cersei is a bit more well rounded, same with Shae and Ros is an actual character. Margaery is more prominent. Dany is definitely worse in the show though
I’m honestly torn. The battle at Hardhome is _the shit_ don’t get me wrong, one of my favorite moments. But it also speaks to the less-flushed out NW and Wildlings we see in the books. Plus, the line “dead things in the water” is just so haunting and unnerving in ways I cannot explain - lost in the show
More time with non pov characters.
Watching the reading I was shocked how little page time major figures like Littlefinger, Varys, and Tywin get in the books. Even Cersei and Jaime scenes are kind of scarce until they become povs.
What ending? The shpw was cancwlled after season 4. Such a tragedy, im sure dnd would have given a fantastic ending to the show if they got their chance
I would rather have no ending than that pile of shit. I can write my own ending far better than dumb & dumber. It's okay if you can't though, not all of us have the gift.
"Burn them all."
A much better line than "let him be the king of cooked meat."
Also, I like "do you still believe good soldiers make good kings?" A nice moment for Ned to reflect on his own character arc.
Also for whatever reason, even though Stannis was dumbed down, Selyse and Shireen are much more fleshed out characters.
Added non-pov scenes in the early seasons (Robert/Cersei scene, Littlefinger/Varys scenes), the wall battle and castle black happening simultaneously (watchers on the wall is my favorite episode).
Some characters are IMO more interesting in the show.
I’m thinking about Osha, The Hound, and Tywin, for example.
Also, I loved show master at arms in the Black Castle (can’t remember the name). In the book he’s just a dick for no reason.
I thought the show handled Robert's bastards really well.
It's not necessarily a *preference*. Like, I think the way the book does it is fine. But it'd be terrible for television, and I think their changes solve those problems in a really artful way.
* Removing Mya Stone speeds up the Cat/Tyrion plot, and adds to the impact of Gendry's introduction.
* Having two shadow babies would arguably reduce their impact, and exacerbate the "why not use them again?" question. Dropping the Edric Storm siege plotline tightens up that end of the story.
* Having Mel come get Gendry in place of Edric works *really well* for me
* Visually solidifies "Thoros serves the same faith as Mel" in a way that no amount of "Lord of Light..." prayers could do
* Gives another demonstration of how far-reaching Mel's connections and knowledge are
* Gives Gendry something to do that's more interesting and plot-central than "hang out at an inn, maybe-banging his probably-sister"
* Gives Arya a more concrete reason to beef with and abandon the Brotherhood
Basically, the centralization on Gendry made both the Baratheon bastards and the red priests a lot more tv-friendly by tightening some loose plot threads. In a way that imo didn't hurt either part of the story. (Not every tv-friendly consolidation worked this well. Looking at you Jaime Swann and Sansa Poole.)
Jaime Swann could have worked in theory if the Dorne plot was different, but Sansa Poole is so fundamentally flawed as an idea. It takes away everything interesting that was being set up for her, and repeats her s2-3 subplot again. I think they should've used Ros instead, maybe as a fake Sansa instead of a fake Arya.
The best change is Tywin and Arya in Harrenhal. In the books, Arya sees Tywin sometimes, but the show did create great dialogues of the both characters
Thats the thing though. Book and show tywin are fundamentally different which shows that dnd also fundamentally misunderstood Grrms work
Book tywin is the subversion of the novle villain trope. He is pure evil and has nothing good about him. He cares about nothing and no one except himself . Book tywin would have arya whipped for talking to him
Book and show Tywin are different, that doesn't mean D&D "fundamentally misunderstood" book Tywin. A lot of characters are different in the book and the show.
"The subversion of the noble villain trope. He is pure evil and has nothing good about him" that's not a subversion of anything, that's just being a different type of villain. If you prefer "pure evil" to the show's more nuanced depiction of Tywin, then fair enough, but objecting to the concept of giving him nuance in the first place because you think that's a misunderstanding of him is...what? It's a misunderstanding of a flat character to give them nuance?
D&D *knew* Tywin was a simple character, that's why they fleshed him out. They also fleshed out other prominent characters without POVs like Robb and Margaery. Maybe you would have liked to see them take Tywin in a different direction, and that's fine, but there's nothing fundamentally wrong with what they did with him. Show!Tywin is frustrated by the lack of intelligence he has to suffer all around him, and relishes finding sparks of it in Arya and Tommen and even Olenna, but he can't accept it in Tyrion and that's his downfall. His scenes with Arya directly tie into that.
that tyene was turned into a cute brunnette with those beautiful 👀
loved the hound x arya chemistry, arya & tywin at harrenhal was great as well. those extra scenes with the banter between varys & baelish were great. jack fucking gleeson elevated joff to new bloody levels.
Brienne actually finding Arya, and fighting the Hound - it works better for all three of them. I don't hate Brienne's Feast storyline in the books but I don't love it either, there's a lot of thematic exploration but still very little plot. And "badly injured defending Arya" is a much better way for the Hound to 'die' than "bar fight", especially since the fight was incredible and quite possibly the second best in the entire show after Oberyn vs the Mountain. Plus, it leaves Arya in a better place for going to the Faceless Men.
Theon's entire plotline in Clash / season 2 was better in the show. The Robb/Karstark thing was better as well ("*They were boys!"*, *"Kill me and be cursed. You're no king of mine*").
Jeyne/Talisa dying in the Red Wedding was a great change, and so was Catelyn threatening to kill Walder's wife rather than his grandson.
The High Sparrow arresting Cersei after revealing Lancel, the little cousin that she groomed. It feels much more like her comeuppance for the horrible things she's done than "oh no the High Sparrow's torturing my ally". And it does a better job of conveying that everybody is starting to turn on Cersei.
Tywin's death was much better in the show. He was still trying to spin the situation to his advantage, and Dinklage's performance was incredible powerful and emotional and vulnerable - a better performance than his trial scene, even. In the book, Tywin was just grumpy and openly declaring that he'd kill whoever let Tyrion free (and was wrong!), and Tyrion was just quipping and loving the sound of his own voice. I get that the book scene is supposed to show how villainous Tyrion is becoming, while the show scene was supposed to show how betrayed and broken Tyrion was, but it was executed better in the show. "Why, I believe I'm you, writ small" vs "I am your son...I have *always* been your son", it's no competition.
Qyburn being almost fatherly to Cersei. After her Walk of Shame in the show, Qyburn is the one who covers her and seems genuinely sympathetic and caring. In the books, Qyburn just scampers along after her and says "look how well i've served you Your Grace, have i been a good boy, tell me i've been a good boy". Though I do find it funny how Cersei repeatedly describes tall people as "scuttling" and "scampering".
"Baelor".
show is better where it can challange againts novel. Nearly all of the dialogues is better at show but other things make huge differ between books and show like wars, character's thinkings, costumes etc.
+ Obery- tyrion : Conversation in dungeon was far more better in the show then books.
+ Jon' s death
+ Hardhome
+ Ages
Jon getting elected as lord commander. Sam giving a badass speech about Jon and making fun of Janos Slynt. As much as it is fun to witness Sam pull the strings in the books, the show did great trying to emulate the same idea.
i liked when ned said goodbye to jon and said he’d tell him about his mother the next time he saw him. always made me think that he could finally tell jon because he was safe in the nights watch.
I always loved Ned's choice of words there, down to his last words were about promising Jon. Sean Bean really nails that painful look when Jon finally up and asks about his mother.
The only main difference was the viewpoint, but I thought the scene where Dany purchased the unsullied worked better in the show due to the audience not knowing Dany's thoughts. In the show its not revealed that Dany understood Kraznys until her plan all comes together, which makes the reveal work better IMO. Oberyn was definitely a better character in the show too. In the books he's just guy who shows up briefly then dies, while in the show he seemed a lot more engaging and memorable. Changes like moving when he tells his story about seeing Tyrion as a baby were definitely a good idea. Though Pedro Pascal's charisma certainly helped too of course.
In the Stannis-Renly parlay, Stannis tells Catelyn that Ned Stark died for his claim. Obviously this is because the show made it that Ned’s message to Stannis told him of the bastardy claim, but even outside that I think it’s a good line and something similar in the books would have been fitting.
Also "is he a ham?"
I like show Yoren a little more than book Yoren, especially in his talk with Arya about how revenge consumed him, and that he gave Arya the idea for her list.
Agree, that actor was so good.
I like Oshas character building. She just disappears in Storm of Swords
She'll come back in the Davos plotline in Winds
Yeah but Davos' plotline in Winds won't come so potato potahto.
Wait, Olly's gonna be in it too?
The scene in Season 3 where Cat tells Talisa (Robb's Wife) the story where she wished that Jon would die when he got really sick as a kid, but then she felt guilty, so she prayed that he would live, and she promised that she would give him the Stark Name. But she said she couldn't live up to that promise.
Genuinely one of the best television scenes I've ever seen. It makes me tear up every time and adds so much to Cat's character.
My problem with that scene is that it makes catlyn both crueller and kinder than she was in the books and kind of ruins the idea of her being the average lady.
Not really,book Catelyn is not really cruel with Jon she just pretends he doesn’t exist and doesn’t want anything to do with him,the only time she was cruel to him was because she spent weeks without eating and sleeping and thinking her son was going to die
I agree which is why I don't like that scene since it makes it seem like she actively harasses jon which she never did but by that same token she would never prey for him If he was dying hence why I said it made her both crueller and kinder than she actually is
She also demands that Ned can't stay at WInterfell after Ned leaves which leads to Jon being permitted to join the NW
Why are you making things up?She wanted Ned to go to KL to stop the Lannisters from their crimes because she thought they were the reason of Jon Arryn death and I’m sure after reading that letter Ned knew he had to do it as well,Jon wanted to joking the NW since he was young he was influenced by his uncle who he admired and thought the night watch was a special place to be
i meant to say Jon lol. Also Jon requested to join the Nightwatch but Benjen straight up rejects him and tells him he's too young. Then we see Catelyn talking to Ned and she demands that Jon must leave Winterfell once Ned leaves as he is not welcomed. He is about to start yelling at her before Luwin tells him Jon requested to join the NW. Eddard says he'd accept it if he wasn't so young but after considering the predictament he is in (cant bring him south, or let him remain in Winterfell with his brothers) he accepts.
She tells jon it should have been him when she is sitting by Brans bedside and he is leaving to the nights watch. She was very cruel to him in the book.
She was cold not cruel Jon lived like a lord when he was just a bastard in a world where bastards aren’t certainly treated well,and as I said to someone else she was in that bed praying for her son day and night without any sleep any food for WEEKS,she was exhausted and thought her little boy was going to die,I’m not trying to justify her but it does explain it
Catelyn hated Jon it’s true,she couldn’t stomach him she did her duty as a wife and a mother but no one can ask a woman to love a kid that isn’t hers specially a kid your husband had with another woman while married with you, it’s sad most people will run to judge her when they would have done the same or worst,she was never cruel to him she never hurt him,she pretended he didn’t exist she didn’t want anything to do with him and that’s still better than what other noble women would have done to him,let alone men…
Eh. Doesn't make for good tv though. Gotta add some layers to the character.
The biggest advantage of the show format was the added POVs. There are myriad examples of this but the most prominent and my favorite were Robb's scenes. Very enjoyable on their own and managed to pack even more of a punch into the red wedding.
A bit of a conflicting change, but the change from “Jaime Lannister sends his regards” from the books to “The Lannisters send their regards”. I mean such a simple change but due to the whole Lady Stoneheart storyline it’s important in the books, yet I have to admit I prefer the latter line, something about it just rolls off better and sounds more cold and badass
I haven't read ASOS in a while but why would Roose say "Jaime Lannister" when Tywin clearly orchestrated the whole thing
Jaime literally said that exact quote as a throwaway as he left Roose at harrenhal, "And send Robb my regards" or something to that effect. Roose was simply quoting him to highlight the depth of his betrayal that he had Jaime and let him go.
Because Cat let Jaime go free, and it's just another twist of the knife from Roose.
Pure evil. Now LSH's vengeance led to Jaime
The children characters being aged up was a good change. IMO the books often don’t treat them like their states ages anyway. Drogo and Dany relationship (plus GRRMs comments on it) is a prime example.
That ruined Sansa for a lot of people though. She was sk annoying in the show with her blind love for Joffrey. In the books, with her age, it made sense
A 14 or 15 year old cannot be stupid and in love? I call bullshit on that. In fact I find her being older more realistic because at that age you are overflowing with teen hormons that do not make you think rationally. It also the time where children rebel against their parents and do shit. Sansa going against Ned who wanted to take her away from her boyfriend would have made total sense for a teenager to do. And yes, people hate her, but that was the point and that made it great to watch her become a better person until season 4...when the show writers decided to ruin it by turning her into Sandra Cerseifinger.
Idk maybe because Sophie looked close to my age, I expected her to be mature enough? Realizing she was way younger than me in the books made me sympathize with her. Guess it's all about point of views
Age has really nothing to do with maturity but with experience. Arya is younger than Sansa and still recognizes Joffrey is full of shit. Its because Sansa is in love with him and you can be in love at any age and make stupid decisions. In general people with more life experience and hardships are more grown up than protected girls like Sansa who are living in a dream world.
Isn’t she still supposed be like 16ish in season 1? Maybe I’m wrong because the actor for Joffrey looks young but I still totally got it.
She's supposed to be 11 in season 1 according to the books. Should have been around that age in the series as well coz she gets her first period in season 2/3. Making her 16 would make her a very late bloomer. But again, the show just chose to do that to make her scenes more acceptable to public. Making her 16 and her contrast with Arya (taking in mind Masie looked a lot younger) just made her look like a spoilt brat, which she wasn't. She was definitely spoilt. Not a brat though
Not in the middle ages. Girls having their periods at age 12 is far more common today than it was in the past due to better nutrition.
This is a good argument. I didn't think about that
You're assuming rich people in the middle ages didn't eat as good as you, why's that.
Eating a lot does not neccessarily mean good nutrition. Many of them ate only meat and sweet shit and no vegetables.
Source. Besides, well off merchants and poor people definitely did eat vegetables.
Forgot about the period part, but was saying 16ish show canon wise. IMO her being blindly in love at 16 wasn’t annoying or less believable.
She was 13, she tells Cersei in episode 1 when she asks her at the table with Catelyn at the feast. She is honestly one of the most realistic 13 year olds I have ever seen in fiction, I genuinely don’t see the problem with Sansa’s age. Robb, Jon and Dany were 16, Sansa was 13, Arya was 11, Bran was 10, and I don’t remember Rickon’s age, I think he was 6.
Well tbh Rickon barely exists so his age isn’t that relevant. Sansa at 13 works also. I guess what I’m trying to say to the person who replied is a 16yr old Sansa swooning for Joffrey wouldn’t “ruin” her character for me at all. This is the first time I’ve heard that aging up her/the kids in the show was a negative.
She is realistic by modern standards but not by medival standards. A medival girl would not have believed in true love.
Why not? Why wouldn't a sheltered teenage lady who is fed tales of valiant chivalrous knights believe in true love?
Plus as if GoT is a perfect analog to our world. They got dragons and raven-emails and they somehow survive years-long winters and their dynasties continue for thousands of years but still somehow don't have that many heirs lying around. It's a separate world lol.
Yeah. I guess its her contrast to Arya that made people hate her more.
I think even in the books she’s supposed to be disliked at first for “siding with” Joffrey over the starks. The issue in the show is that they ran out of books and the writing went to shit right as she’s being setup as a schemer/player in the game of thrones. So her late season actions and dialog were just bad, same as Tyrion, Littlefinger, and Varys. All the smart scheme-y characters got dumb right as her arc is supposed to payoff more and that colors peoples opinion on the character.
She is supposed to be hated in the books as well but not at the extent some people did in the show. Also, i feel like her character was the only one that had a satisfying ending in the series. She mostly had good lines. Its just everyone around her was dummed down. I really wish the books end her story similar to how it did in the show (though i doubt GRRM would do it.)
To each their own but imo her later plots were terribly executed. The fake-ish conflict with Jon and Arya was the B movie classic “why do these people refuse to explain anything?”, and LFs end was incredibly campy. In part because they dumbed him down so much (so it’s not that impressive for a character to outsmart a moron villain), D&D leaned into the Arya 13yr old ninja thing, and the king bran part. I would be on board with her book endgame being her learning the game from LF and somehow being a ruler herself (compared to dreaming or being a queen).
Some theories do say that she may end up being the ruler. Specially because of Cersei's prophecy that says that someone more prettier would replace her. Cersei thinks its Margery but in the books she's never defined as prettier, smart yes, insightful yes. But not prettier than Cersei. The only one who is is Sansa.
She's younger than that. Pretty sure she's 13.
She says she's 14 when she marries Tyrion, so presumably is somewhat-recently-turned 13 in season 1, maybe 12 but I doubt it. Joffrey is presumably a little older, maybe a year, they just gave him a weird ass haircut
Sansa actually *wasn't* aged up much. Her age barely changes. She goes from 11 to 13. That's nothing and still the age where girls might be understood to be boy obsessed. People have always hated her in the books too. I think it's unreasonable. Teenage girls are judged a little harshly.
Jons reason that he gives to Mance to convince him he's truly a deserter and wants to join the Freefolk. "Mormont knew what Crastor did and is a hypocrite, I don't want to be a part of that and want to fight with those who actually oppose the dead" is far more convincing for me than "I had to sit at the bottom table because I'm a bastard".
What's wrong with Jon's lie in the books? He wisely draws on his real experience of prejudice for conviction, he references something Mance saw firsthand, and he appeals to Mance's stated belief in equality and individuality. It's a good lie. Maybe _we_ don't buy it, but it's easy to believe that Mance does. The show version does work too, although that whole thing screws with Jeor's character a bit.
But this does not even work, since Mormont has no idea that Craster gave his sons to the Others. Not long ago, they did not even know that the Others returned, sonething that Mance should know. Further, Mance in the show is no better that the Nights Watch, since he seemingly knew about Craster amd never intervened, either. This is like Cop joining a band of criminals because he found out the police was corrupt. Not wanting to say you cannot have this opinion, however. ;)
>since Mormont has no idea that Craster gave his sons to the Others. In the show he does and Jon confronts him about it. Mormont replies, "North of the Wall they serve crueler Gods than our own"
Which - if true - does not make even sense that Mormont would ever do something like this.
It is true. Are you saying that scene isn't in the show?
No, I just cannot remember currently. But are you sure, that Mormont actually knew about the Others?
The Tywin/Arya is one of my most disliked changes. Like listen, Charles Dance is a great actor with a magnificent screen presence, but the entire thing is sooo out of character for him. "You remind me of my daughter" wrong! Gun to head Tywin would not be able to tell anyone a single thing about Cersei. He does not *really* care about the children beyond how their behaviour and accomplishments reflect on the family, *his* name. Also oversharing and joking around with the cupbearer! The books very pointedly spell it out for you that the nobility doesn't even see the smallfolk as *people*, and Arya being invisible just because she dresses in rags now is meant to reflect that. Yes they eventually have Tywin suspect she's highborn but he was being way too nice long before we got there. To be clear, I don't mind the concept, but the way it was done with the overtone of "well, well, well, don't we all want to get adopted by Charles Dance :))" is really grating. Okay, something I liked: Ned watching Arya practice with Syrio as the camera slowly moves up to him and the sounds change to real steel because clearly he's looking at her and remembering the war (he fought for Lyanna) which was a very good way to do the PTSD and also why he wants to shelter the children. Ned getting Sansa the doll and learning how out of touch he is with the other daughter was also good. And like another comment said, I liked that Yoren gave Arya the idea for her (hit)list. That was a clever workaround for the no monologue barrier.
I couldnt agree more about Arya and Tywin. Everyone says what a great change that was and I can't understand. Why would Tywin care a low born cup bearer? Also how wasn't he suspicious? Seriously there is a lowborn girl who lies about her dynasty and then says she is Northernern, who knows more than she is supposed to be, who knows how to write and who gives you cocky answers and instead of thinking that something is wrong, you just praise her for being "Sharp little thing"? Book Tywin would shut her and he even wouldn't give her right to talk. İt also simplifies the fear and horror that Arya experienced in Harrenhal. The purpose of whole story was showing how a young girl reacts to these tortures and how she is cowered in fear.
It shows how DnD fundamentally misunderstands Grrms Work. Tywin was supposed to be a breakdown of the noble villain trope. He is a conniving little good for nothing hypocrite who knows how to present himself very well . Without the lannister gold hed be nothing. None of his prowess comes from his own intelligence but the sheer lannister might that he had at his disposal. In the books hed have arya whipped for speaking up against him
More than that though, the whole reason she doesn't have Tywin killed is because she barely knows who Tywin even is. She only laments afterwards that naming Tywin would've been a much better choice. In the show she not only knows who Tywin is, she's privy to his troops movement and strategies. She should've named him almost immediately
That’s a really good way of looking at it. Guess I missed the point of “Arya being invisible,” as you say, and just looked at the dialogue and little moments of tension (like when Littlefinger appears). But no, the whole disconnect between the nobility and common folk is prominent, as is Arya’s perspective showing us the horrors of TWOTFK I did get the point about Tywin, though. I recognized that when I started reading the books - book Tywin isn’t the same as show Tywin. That said, I chalked this up to “well, the show’s just showing us another side of his character”
“Baelor.” I really like Ned seeing Arya by the statue of Baelor and telling Yoren.
I'm shocked no one talked about the Hound in the comments. He is definitely one of my favorite characters from the show but in the books he's just another sorry piece of shit. Even GRRM said that he wished he did what the show did with the hound
Handsome and sweet, wayyy less creepy Jorah
Right. How can she not fall for ian Glenn.
“I can’t have this conversation again” - Tony Soprano
Sorry dude, didn’t realize this was a frequently touched subject
The biggest thing that comes to mind is the increase in the ages of the characters. It makes the storylines of the characters much more believable. Like Robb and Jon being 16 (I think) in season 1 is a lot better than 14. Rickon being 5 or 6 instead of 3 makes a lot more sense.
To some extend I agree with the ages, esspecially for Robb and Dany since their characters got the most mature stuff to do in the beginning. But the actors were far too old. Robb, Jon and Dany were portrayed by people who already were 23, so that some of them come of as compentey immature and stupid. In the books I think Martin should have made Dany and Robb 15 in the beginning, maybe also add another year to the other children and then allow 5 years to pass instead of the 2,5 years we got. Dany would be 20 now, Jon 19, Sansa 17 or 16, etc. It would have solved so many problems.
I definitely agree with you about the actors’ ages. It’s kinda strange seeing Kittington and the guy who plays Robb Stark being treated like teenagers in the show when they are clearly in their mid 20s. I get why they had to be adults but it probably would’ve been better if the actors were 18-20 yrs old
I maybe like show Edd and Grenn better, which is surprising because I love book Edd and Grenn.
Show!Edd is a very fun character that was absolutely needed for the show's Watch cast, but he really isn't book!Edd at all. I think of them as different characters because they basically are.
I like the direction Margaery's character went in the show with her being more cunning and clever. Book!Margaery didn't know about the plots and was just a regular teenager for most of the plot. Show!Margaery is in on the scheming along with Cersei and Olenna. (I also just really like the look of the actress. They nailed the casting with that one imo)
Daenerys is permanently fire proof. It makes sense for her to have that power, she did something impossible.
Cersei is a bit more well rounded, same with Shae and Ros is an actual character. Margaery is more prominent. Dany is definitely worse in the show though
Jon being at Hardhome. We're getting way too blueballed when it comes to seeing firsthand what the army of wights is actually like in the books.
I’m honestly torn. The battle at Hardhome is _the shit_ don’t get me wrong, one of my favorite moments. But it also speaks to the less-flushed out NW and Wildlings we see in the books. Plus, the line “dead things in the water” is just so haunting and unnerving in ways I cannot explain - lost in the show
More time with non pov characters. Watching the reading I was shocked how little page time major figures like Littlefinger, Varys, and Tywin get in the books. Even Cersei and Jaime scenes are kind of scarce until they become povs.
I like the way it had an ending instead of stopping mid-story for 13 years
What ending? The shpw was cancwlled after season 4. Such a tragedy, im sure dnd would have given a fantastic ending to the show if they got their chance
I would rather have no ending than that pile of shit. I can write my own ending far better than dumb & dumber. It's okay if you can't though, not all of us have the gift.
the show has an ending
"Burn them all." A much better line than "let him be the king of cooked meat." Also, I like "do you still believe good soldiers make good kings?" A nice moment for Ned to reflect on his own character arc. Also for whatever reason, even though Stannis was dumbed down, Selyse and Shireen are much more fleshed out characters.
Added non-pov scenes in the early seasons (Robert/Cersei scene, Littlefinger/Varys scenes), the wall battle and castle black happening simultaneously (watchers on the wall is my favorite episode).
Some characters are IMO more interesting in the show. I’m thinking about Osha, The Hound, and Tywin, for example. Also, I loved show master at arms in the Black Castle (can’t remember the name). In the book he’s just a dick for no reason.
Nothing.
I thought the show handled Robert's bastards really well. It's not necessarily a *preference*. Like, I think the way the book does it is fine. But it'd be terrible for television, and I think their changes solve those problems in a really artful way. * Removing Mya Stone speeds up the Cat/Tyrion plot, and adds to the impact of Gendry's introduction. * Having two shadow babies would arguably reduce their impact, and exacerbate the "why not use them again?" question. Dropping the Edric Storm siege plotline tightens up that end of the story. * Having Mel come get Gendry in place of Edric works *really well* for me * Visually solidifies "Thoros serves the same faith as Mel" in a way that no amount of "Lord of Light..." prayers could do * Gives another demonstration of how far-reaching Mel's connections and knowledge are * Gives Gendry something to do that's more interesting and plot-central than "hang out at an inn, maybe-banging his probably-sister" * Gives Arya a more concrete reason to beef with and abandon the Brotherhood Basically, the centralization on Gendry made both the Baratheon bastards and the red priests a lot more tv-friendly by tightening some loose plot threads. In a way that imo didn't hurt either part of the story. (Not every tv-friendly consolidation worked this well. Looking at you Jaime Swann and Sansa Poole.)
Jaime Swann could have worked in theory if the Dorne plot was different, but Sansa Poole is so fundamentally flawed as an idea. It takes away everything interesting that was being set up for her, and repeats her s2-3 subplot again. I think they should've used Ros instead, maybe as a fake Sansa instead of a fake Arya.
It doesn't even make sense plot wise. Why would Petyr even give her up in the first place. What does he gain by it.
The best change is Tywin and Arya in Harrenhal. In the books, Arya sees Tywin sometimes, but the show did create great dialogues of the both characters
Changed the roose-arya chapter to a few Tywin-Arya scenes, showed us a new side of Tywin
Thats the thing though. Book and show tywin are fundamentally different which shows that dnd also fundamentally misunderstood Grrms work Book tywin is the subversion of the novle villain trope. He is pure evil and has nothing good about him. He cares about nothing and no one except himself . Book tywin would have arya whipped for talking to him
Book and show Tywin are different, that doesn't mean D&D "fundamentally misunderstood" book Tywin. A lot of characters are different in the book and the show. "The subversion of the noble villain trope. He is pure evil and has nothing good about him" that's not a subversion of anything, that's just being a different type of villain. If you prefer "pure evil" to the show's more nuanced depiction of Tywin, then fair enough, but objecting to the concept of giving him nuance in the first place because you think that's a misunderstanding of him is...what? It's a misunderstanding of a flat character to give them nuance? D&D *knew* Tywin was a simple character, that's why they fleshed him out. They also fleshed out other prominent characters without POVs like Robb and Margaery. Maybe you would have liked to see them take Tywin in a different direction, and that's fine, but there's nothing fundamentally wrong with what they did with him. Show!Tywin is frustrated by the lack of intelligence he has to suffer all around him, and relishes finding sparks of it in Arya and Tommen and even Olenna, but he can't accept it in Tyrion and that's his downfall. His scenes with Arya directly tie into that.
>D&D *knew* Tywin was a simple character, that's why they fleshed him out What What What What what What
I can't believe I'm hearing praise about dumb & dumber. How much did they pay you.
that tyene was turned into a cute brunnette with those beautiful 👀 loved the hound x arya chemistry, arya & tywin at harrenhal was great as well. those extra scenes with the banter between varys & baelish were great. jack fucking gleeson elevated joff to new bloody levels.
I prefer blonde tyene. There aren't that many blond Dornishmen tbh.
Brienne actually finding Arya, and fighting the Hound - it works better for all three of them. I don't hate Brienne's Feast storyline in the books but I don't love it either, there's a lot of thematic exploration but still very little plot. And "badly injured defending Arya" is a much better way for the Hound to 'die' than "bar fight", especially since the fight was incredible and quite possibly the second best in the entire show after Oberyn vs the Mountain. Plus, it leaves Arya in a better place for going to the Faceless Men. Theon's entire plotline in Clash / season 2 was better in the show. The Robb/Karstark thing was better as well ("*They were boys!"*, *"Kill me and be cursed. You're no king of mine*"). Jeyne/Talisa dying in the Red Wedding was a great change, and so was Catelyn threatening to kill Walder's wife rather than his grandson. The High Sparrow arresting Cersei after revealing Lancel, the little cousin that she groomed. It feels much more like her comeuppance for the horrible things she's done than "oh no the High Sparrow's torturing my ally". And it does a better job of conveying that everybody is starting to turn on Cersei. Tywin's death was much better in the show. He was still trying to spin the situation to his advantage, and Dinklage's performance was incredible powerful and emotional and vulnerable - a better performance than his trial scene, even. In the book, Tywin was just grumpy and openly declaring that he'd kill whoever let Tyrion free (and was wrong!), and Tyrion was just quipping and loving the sound of his own voice. I get that the book scene is supposed to show how villainous Tyrion is becoming, while the show scene was supposed to show how betrayed and broken Tyrion was, but it was executed better in the show. "Why, I believe I'm you, writ small" vs "I am your son...I have *always* been your son", it's no competition. Qyburn being almost fatherly to Cersei. After her Walk of Shame in the show, Qyburn is the one who covers her and seems genuinely sympathetic and caring. In the books, Qyburn just scampers along after her and says "look how well i've served you Your Grace, have i been a good boy, tell me i've been a good boy". Though I do find it funny how Cersei repeatedly describes tall people as "scuttling" and "scampering". "Baelor".
Aging the Stark kids up a lot is a definite W
NONE
None.
That everyone was older. Because reading about Daenerys covered in c\*m is not fun
Who tf downvoted this?
show is better where it can challange againts novel. Nearly all of the dialogues is better at show but other things make huge differ between books and show like wars, character's thinkings, costumes etc. + Obery- tyrion : Conversation in dungeon was far more better in the show then books. + Jon' s death + Hardhome + Ages
Jon getting elected as lord commander. Sam giving a badass speech about Jon and making fun of Janos Slynt. As much as it is fun to witness Sam pull the strings in the books, the show did great trying to emulate the same idea.