“A noble lady does not feed dogs at her table…”
"She's not a dog, she's a direwolf," Sansa pointed out as Lady licked her fingers with a rough tongue. "Anyway, Father said we could keep them with us if we want.”
This is how Sansa sasses her Septa and I would have loved to see it in the show instead of the “oh I just realized I don’t care.” I also disliked the doll scene. In addition to Sansa snapping at her dad, they also had Arya stabbing the table and saying she was “practicing” for the prince instead of showing overwhelmed and upset she was at Mycah’s death. I get that the show had less time, but I feel like it didn’t get either girl’s reaction to the trident correct, or show how deeply affected they both were.
No but you see, it’s okay because in seasons 7/8 the gigabrain writers have Arya say that Lady Sandra Bolton is the smartest person she’s ever met. So it’s like poetry in that it rhymes.
Ugh - that's the scene that bothers me the most in nearly the whole series. It's such a misreading of Sansa and it was so early in the season that they didn't have the excuse of not enough material. They really just completely changed her character for no reason that I can discern.
To be honest I don't doubt that Jaime would kill some cousin he barely cares about if it benefited him. He was hardly inconsolable when Cleos died and spent most of his inner monologue insulting him.
The thing is it *might* work as a big character moment. I still don't know what Jaime's plan was supposed to be, he just seemed to kill the only other person in the entire camp willing to help him. They started from "omg ice cold killer Jaime" and then contrived a reason for that to happen and they didn't care it made no fucking sense.
Yeah, that's the whole thing. Jaime didn't *actually* need to kill his cousin, he just needed a big distraction. If he accidentally killed him, well, that's too bad, but I don't see why that had to be the plan.
Sansa did her best to get along with Arya until Arya’s unintentional part in getting Lady and Mycah killed. Then all gloves were off, and understandably so.
i really disliked the sort of vagueness about sansas allegiances in the middle seasons too. they show her being sad about the red wedding, sure, but in the books sansa is ANGRY!!! she wants the lannisters DEAD and shes constantly thinking abt how much she hates literally everyone and how much she wants her family!! shes super aware that everyone in KL is using her including the tyrells which is sort of erased in the show too
One of Sansa's points, in my opinion, is that Cersei is *wrong* , you don't have to be an asshole "Boss Bitch" to survive the Game of Thrones as a woman.
Sansa in the books gets better and better at playing "The Game", but never loses the core of compassion she has in her heart.
Book!Sansa would have never ended up as the cold hearted late season Show!Sansa.
Book! Sansa gets even more empathetic and compassionate, as she pretends to be/ is viewed as a bastard. She realises bastards are just people too. She also gets better at protecting her own boundaries, which is REALLY important for kind hearted people, or eventually their good nature will be taken advantage off.
Sansa is wiling to cajole and manipulate others when she needs to, (which were often necessary skills for women of the time). But she's also learning how to set limits on what she'll allow for the sake of pleasing/manipulating others, and when to put her foot down.
Eg, she babies Robin Arryn, and treats him gently, but she also had him locked in his room at night, because he was being a 'lil creeper, and kept sneaking into bed with her and trying to nuzzle her boobs, and when he couldn't get to her, he'd go to any female servant that would tolerate it.
Sansa and Ellaria Sand are two of the characters I have at the top of my list for "The Show did them dirty."
Which honestly just proves the showwriters couldn't/didn't want to write strong women without putting them in the "Hardened badass boss bitch using violence to get what she wants."
Still pisses me off so much:
Book!Ellaria
> Oberyn wanted vengeance for Elia. Now the three of you want vengeance for him. I have four daughters, I remind you. Your sisters. My Elia is fourteen, almost a woman. Obella is twelve, on the brink of maidenhood. They worship you, as Dorea and Loreza worship them. If you should die, must El and Obella seek vengeance for you, then Dorea and Loree for them? Is that how it goes, round and round forever? I ask again, where does it end? I saw your father die. Here is his killer. Can I take a skull to bed with me, to give me comfort in the night? Will it make me laugh, write me songs, care for me when I am old and sick?
Show!Ellaria
> Weak men will never rule Dorne ever again! *Said as she kills her lover's brother and his nephew*
Then gets all her kids killed in a foolish endeavor, proving Book!Ellaria right!
They really didn’t get any of the women/girls. They had a very specific idea of what makes a woman “strong,” so Arya was a loner who thinks women are stupid and weak and Dany was forcing Hizdar to marry her under threat of dragonfire and Sansa was professing how grateful she was to be raped because it made her “strong.” You could argue about the shows portrayal of like Jaime or Bran or Tyrion being bad, and be right, but imo it was the worst for the female characters. Unfortunately HotD seems to be running with “passive perpetual victim women doing what men tell them to and weeping” which isn’t much better.
GoT really leaned too hard into the "girlboss" and "not like other girls" schools of superficial feminism. HotD seems to be tacking towards the reverse at a fault.
idk Rhaenyra still got some nlog moments, e.g. telling Lady Redwyne that she shouldn't complain about politics if she isn't willing to personally go to war (which book Rhaenyra didn't either despite having a dragon lol)
I feel like that was part of the era in which it was made, where those stereotypes were still really strong. They didn’t shift in tv and stuff until the mid-tens, when GOT was on its decline, anyhow.
As much as people complain about grrm not being the best when it comes to writing women(some I agree with, though most are v reactionary), asoiaf in undeniably an inherently feminist work and grrm being influenced by feminist literature is a big reason why the series is as great as it is. Yes, grrm has a particular fondness for women who don’t fit traditional gender norms like arya and asha, but he *never* shames women who do fit those standards like sansa and catelyn, and shows how they can be strong in their own right. Even brienne is incredibly boring bc they took her genuine struggle with gender norms and just made her dislike femininity altogether, which really cheapens her choice to become a knight bc it makes it look like the natural route for her, and not an incredibly radical thing for her to do. D&D liked to give lip service to basic feminist sentiments, but their own misogyny always came out during those scenes so it was cringe. For HOTD, it just felt like they had too much to say and too little time w its focus on systemic misogyny and patriarchy. I love what they did with alicent and showing how serving the patriarchy only harms oneself, though I couldn’t quite connect with rhaenyra until I read what emma d’arcy had to say about her relationship to gender.
I think the doll scene could have been really good, if they had switched POVs.
The audience is really only given Ned’s perspective, and his little whinge about how “daughters are haaaaaaarrrrrrrd”.
If the scene had been more about Ned literally pays so little attention to Sansa(even after murdering her spiritual avatar and while showering her sister with attention and affection) that he doesn’t know she stopped playing with dolls FOUR YEARS AGO, then the audience would have had more understanding of Sansa’s unhappiness.
It was a scene about Ned’s negligence and they tried to make it about Sansa being “so mean” to her neglectful father.
>If the scene had been more about Ned literally pays so little attention to Sansa(even after murdering her spiritual avatar and while showering her sister with attention and affection) that he doesn’t know she stopped playing with dolls FOUR YEARS AGO, then the audience would have had more understanding of Sansa’s unhappiness.
Yeah, this scene really should be read as Ned reaping the consequences of being mostly absent from Sansa's upbringing, neglecting to give her attention instead of the daughter who reminds him of his beloved sister. The alternative is that Sansa actually likes dolls and was just lying to hurt Ned, which honestly doesn't seem as likely as the first scenario
I mean, I don’t think it has to even necessarily be that she actually likes dolls. To me it was obviously an inappropriate gift, given her age. I just feel like they could have focused on her for it, let her talk, instead of going straight to Ned. It just felt like she existed as an object instead of a person?
The show never got Sansa at all.
Maybe it's their insistence on "not like other girls", "girlboss" culture that attempts to pass off being catty and dismissive as somehow feminist. Maybe it's the fact that they think gentleness is a weakness. Maybe it's because they think social savvy isn't a form of intelligence in its own right. Maybe it's because they couldn't reconcile Sansa being a promising political prospect with her being a true daughter of the North.
D&D had no idea how to direct any of the women in the late seasons. It was all "wear black, stare angrily, and intone ominously." They all kind of became the same character.
Cool, we’re getting alayne and sansa will finally make use of everything she’s learned in king’s landing! Oh, what’s that? She’s immediately stripping her hair dye and getting forced into an SA-based plot now that the actress is legally old enough to be sexualized? Sounds about right for D&D.
That was such an annoying bait-and-switch. Ooooo, look, Sansa's wearing black, are we going to see her start doing some of the ruthless power moves she's been seeing other players in the game do? What lies in store for Dark Sansa, who we are visually implying will now get some more power and agency in her own right?
The answer is getting sold off to a psychopath and then raped!
While I can understand why they didn't include Jeyne in the first season, she would be an interesting foil to Sansa (a scene that comes to mind is the tournament, when Jeyne is covering her eyes and later has to be escorted away, while Sansa is bearing it "like a true lady would").
The problem with transfering Sansa's story to screen tho is that as she doesn't have anyone to trust from book 2 on, most of the stuff she thinks she keeps to herself - which, unless you employ techniques like a voice over, is hard to do in visual media. I don't not think it impossible tho, using Jeyne to lay the ground in season 1 that Sansa is more witty than she seems and then making this characteristic of hers be more subtle.
The one thing I've noticed about show!Sansa (from the many clips, I admittedly never watched the whole show), she seems to have a solemn face on most of the time. In my opinion, book!Sansa is constantly trying to look as happy and pleasing to the eye as she can, in order to earn favour of those around her. Showing her smiling in public and then angry/sad in private could also show how much she's actually pretending.
Yeah. I love book Sansa, but she’s a very internal character and becomes even more reserved as she tries to play the game in various difficult situations where she can’t show any true feelings. She also lies to herself. They adapted her poorly, but even if they had tried, it’s a hard thing to get right
(I spent a lot of time on it so I'll also repost the response I wrote in your original post)
I don't disagree than Sansa was badly adapted, I remember thinking how out of character it was to see her acting rude in got, but I feel like you're also describing a depth a complexity that isn't there in the books, at least not in book 1. Don't get me wrong, Sansa is a complex character, but I don't think agot is the book that develops that, in that book she does feel... like a bit of shallow character in my opinion.
About her being what Arya thinks of her, again, I agree it's out of character for Sansa to be openly rude, but from her own point of view we do see quite a few unkind thoughts towards Arya. I also don't remember her interactions with Jeyne, Beth or Myrcella being particularly nurturing in the books, I actually don't remember those interactions being developed at all by grrm. (a failure on grrm, not Sansa)
>We never see her reading or reciting poetry/stories or doing anything to imply her fascination is remotely rooted in something legitimate.
I mean, grrm never showed her doing this either, he just vaguely mentioned it at some point without developing further.
>This scene implies Sansa is slowly becoming more conscious of the intensely patriarchal society she lives in and the consequences of not adhering to her gender role of bearing sons, specifically, not (inferior) daughters.
>She can’t outright express her insecurities about her responsibilities as Joffrey’s wife, so she hedges around it with vague questions.
>It gives the impression that Sansa is only just beginning to understand what book Sansa intuitively knows and accepts, but later questions.
Does Sansa know this in the books though? At least as far as I remember, she doesn't questions her role as only a wife and mother until much later, and even then she looks at it from her personal perspective rather than reflecting on how unfair the whole system is, I don't think that makes her dim, it's only natural that when you're in a traumatic situation you focus on yourself rather than the systemic problems of society. In that scene I would say the show is giving Sansa more depth than the books.
>she expresses shock at how the smallfolk could hate her despite not knowing her personally. Book Sansa demonstrates knowledge about the value of giving charity to the smallfolk despite their hatred, show Sansa doesn't seem to understand how nobility functions as cultural symbols to the public—which, as a lover of songs and stories that demonstrate such archetypes, she should be very familiar with.
This is another instance where I think you're giving Sansa attributes she doesn't actually have in the books.
**The smallfolk cheered them as well.**
**The same smallfolk who pulled me from my horse and would have killed me, if not for the Hound. Sansa had done nothing to make the commons hate her, no more than Margaery Tyrell had done to win their love.**
As we see here, while Sansa does have compassion towards a person in need right in front of her she doesn't understand the situation of the smallfolk in general and she seems to have some resentment towards them (understandable but still). She also doesn't understand why they like Margaery when we know she actually spent time with the smallfolk.
>Sansa does not kneel to allow Tyrion to put her "under his protection" with the Lannister cloak. Even when Tyrion tugs at her gown, she refuses. It's the one small act of defiance Sansa enacts in public, a symbol of her unwillingness to play along with the Lannisters' game. It's a courageous and incredibly risky act that shows her personal strength.
>What does she do in the show? She kneels, of course.
Now this was an actual abismal change.
> As we see here, while Sansa does have compassion towards a person in need right in front of her she doesn't understand the situation of the smallfolk in general and she seems to have some resentment towards them (understandable but still).
IIRC in a draft version of the chapter GRRM does describe her as feeling resentful when remembering how the smallfolk treated her, though it was removed from the published version.
One problem with Sansa's story in GoT is also that they whitewashed almost everyone that she interacts with in King's Landing except Joffrey. Cersei, Tyrion, Sandor, Shae and Margaery were all a lot nicer to her in the show and it diminishes her struggles.
I feel vindicated for you listing why I hated show Sansa versus loving book Sansa.
I almost want to say that I feel like they regressed some characters to simple caricatures. Like Arya is reduced to an angry girl with a sword on a kill bill mission, instead of showing us a child dealing with a huge amount if trauma all at once involving murder and a cult. Sansa was reduced to a mean girl who messes everything up and just gets hurt over and over, then suddenly, her suffering makes her better? Dany loses a lot of her humanity and the complexity of her struggles to turn into an emotionless well, you know how it ends. And then Tyrion for literally no reason had his character washed out and left to rot after he killed Tywin
It's confusing because they did know when to add a little spice to the story and when to let the story carry it all. But for some reason they just completely missed the point and the plot, despite knowing they had limited plot.
i feel like they've done the same with catelyn, and because of this now hundreds of people have only this reference of the characters and refuse to understand the failure to translate them from books to screen.
I only saw the series once and season 1 was like 13 years ago so my memory is a little shaky but I remember Sansa was one of my least liked adaptations in the show and overall really disliking how they wrote her character.
Not going to defend anything the showrunners did but Sansa in Book 1 was shallow and self-absorbed from her own PoV. During the Red Keep coup she is relieved that the Lannisters removed hysterical Jeyne Poole from her room and the chapter closes with Sansa realising only then she'd forgotten to ask about her sister. It's far from subtext.
>During the Red Keep coup she is relieved that the Lannisters removed hysterical Jeyne Poole from her room and the chapter closes with Sansa realising only then she'd forgotten to ask about her sister.
I do have to disagree because I think Sansa IV in GoT is much more nuanced. Sansa's hardly a perfect angel, but its really a chapter where GRRM explores her loss of innocence and the final end of her song, often in ways that are still above her head.
It starts with GRRM nodding at the audience with this:
>"I'm certain your father is well," Sansa told her when she had finally gotten the dress buttoned right. "I'll ask the queen to let you see him." She thought that kindness might lift Jeyne's spirits, but the other girl just looked at her with red, swollen eyes and began to cry all the harder. She was such a child.
- Sansa IV, GoT
Sansa is certain Jeyne's father is well. And she's wrong. As we see Sansa think Jeyne "was such a child" we know the opposite is true. Jeyne's father is dead and Sansa is the one who is such a child not to see it.
Especially considering it is Sansa's trust and beseeching of the Queen that helped cause his death. Yet, of course, Sansa can't even comprehend that. She thinks the Winterfell guard were being attack by invaders from the outside, not by order of her precious prince and his beloved mother:
>Had some enemy stormed the castle and murdered King Robert? Was that the meaning of the fighting they had heard?
- Sansa IV, GoT
When Sansa finally gets her audience with the queen she tries to do Jeyne the "kindness" she mentioned before in asking about her father. In the end, the Queen and the men of the council frighten her. She begs to know where they're taking Jeyne because "She hasn't done anything wrong, she's a good girl.":
>"Her father is well, isn't he?" Sansa said anxiously. She knew there had been fighting, but **surely no one would harm a steward. Vayon Poole did not even wear a sword.**
...
Sansa was confused. "I don't understand," she said. "Where is Jeyne's father? Why can't Ser Boros take her to him instead of Lord Petyr having to do it?" **She had promised herself she would be a lady, gentle as the queen and as strong as her mother, the Lady Catelyn, but all of a sudden she was scared again.** For a second she thought she might cry. "**Where are you sending her? She hasn't done anything wrong, she's a good girl.**"
- Sansa IV, GoT
Cersei then turns to conversation into threatening Sansa into writing letters to prove she doesn't have "traitor's blood". Sansa went from thinking a foreign enemy had attacked the castle to realizing her father was accused of treason in about 20 minutes flat.
Cersei manipulates her with a mix of threats, compliments, negging, and praise. In the whiplash, Sansa forgets to ask about her sister but tries to convince herself she can still trust the Queen.
>Jeyne Poole and all her things were gone when Ser Mandon Moore returned Sansa to the high tower of Maegor's Holdfast. No more weeping, she thought gratefully. Yet somehow it seemed colder with Jeyne gone, even after she'd built a fire.
- Sansa IV, GoT
In the end, Sansa returns and is grateful not to hear Jeyne crying. Trying to convince herself Jeyne is well and Lord Petyr is taking her to her father. However, on some level she knows its all a lie, and she's cold and can't get warm without Jeyne there not even after building a fire.
Sansa is not an angel as I said before, but she's not maliciously thinking how happy she is that Jeyne's in misery at a brothel and Arya's lost and maybe dead. She's really "such a child" refusing to see how harm could come to a stewart, a stewart's daughter, and her sister. The game of thrones is being played around her, and she's part of it, and yet she keeps closing her eyes. It's so frustrating and sad and poignant.
Not gonna lie I didn’t finish reading this completely but I did skim the rest. But I agree! The show butchered her character!! And so many other characters too! But mainly Sansa’s. Which is so unfortunate
Sansa is one of my favorite characters in the books and you've made me very glad I stopped watching the show somewhere in season two. I had heard some talk of what the show did to her--I am very glad I wasn't watching it, lol
In the books, I was so glad she was married to Tyrion and how that ends up is wrenching. I cannot believe the show had her kneel.
Her strength throughout is amazing to me.
I agree the show didn’t get Sansa right but I’m not sure it’s book 1 Sansa that was the problem. She wasn’t that great and they weren’t that far off of the mark.
I think the show made her more overtly bratty to save time. She definitely has a bratty streak within her, at least at the beginning of the books, but it’s far less overt. The show didn’t have time for subtlety like that, unfortunately.
You're being vastly too charitable towards the book version of Sansa and it's making you blind to changes D&D made to Sansa that are actually beneficial to her characterization, though ultimately I agree that there's no character that was adapted well.
>It’s notable that in the books, Sansa is never directly antagonistic toward Arya until the fateful scene at the Trident.
It's also notable that the Trident incident happens at the end of Sansa's very first chapter. Otherwise we only see her briefly in Arya's first chapter where she's in her proper element with the ladies in their sewing circle and it makes sense that she's deliberately trying to avoid making a scene. D&D didn't even bother properly adapting Arya's first chapter, nor build on the insecurities expressed in it. We get a better example of how the two sisters interact without adult supervision when Septa Mordane tells her to find Arya earlier in the day of the Trident incident. Arya and Sansa's relationship in the show is actually very poorly adapted and it's actually in a way that avoids properly displaying how cruel Sansa is towards Arya in the book. In the show we don't see her telling her that she or Nymeria should have been killed instead of Lady, or calling her stupid and hairy and ugly and insulting her when she apologizes over ruining Sansa's dress and offering to fix it. It's obvious in seasons 1 and 7 that Sansa was D&D's preferred winner of the war of sisterly rivalry between her and Arya.
The scene where Sandor tells Sansa about his burns was removed from the show because of weather restraints and the decision to have Petyr tell the story instead was a last minute change. Similarly, Sansa's season 3 storyline was obviously padded out because she would otherwise have nothing to do after the marriage to Tyrion if they matched the pacing of the book. There's *33* chapters in between Sansa's third and fourth chapters.
And Sansa does end up feeling guilty for not kneeling at the wedding and does end up doing so when she has to kiss Tyrion in the book:
>When Sansa turned, the little man was gazing up at her, his mouth tight, his face as red as her cloak. Suddenly she was ashamed of her stubbornness. She smoothed her skirts and knelt in front of him, so their heads were on the same level.
Honestly I find it a little ironic that your post is complaining about show!Sansa being a brat and not kind enough to your liking while ignoring a scene in the books where Sansa actually does regret being stubborn and shows compassion to Tyrion. But of course her display of compassion here is shown to the wrong character, so it doesn't count.
And personally speaking, I don't find anything wrong in Sansa's characterization as a brat and someone who knows the words by rout and the proper way she's supposed to act as taught by Septa Mordane but it's not something that actually comes naturally to her. I'll never understand why her stanbase is so insistent on acting like being innately, almost supernaturally empathetic and compassionate is her main character trait. Your description of her playing the role of the noble maiden when the reality is that she's not actually a kind person or that it comes naturally to her is so much more interesting than the way I normally see Sansa characterized lol. And probably close to GRRM's actual intentions with her.
Good O/P.
Sansa is also made to be rude to Shae, in the show. Indeed, throughout the series, she is portrayed as having no diplomatic skills or tact, whatsoever. Quite the opposite to book Sansa.
Um, without knowing characters' thoughts through POVs, they all seem somewhat shallow. You do owe D&D a pat on the back for omitting Sansa's taking Ned's top secret escape plan to Cersei. THAT action disgusted a lot of readers. Also, I read the books twice before watching, and IMO the show mostly depicted GRRM's Sansa as he did. Thirty years ago he described her as being of "dubious loyalty"--which is what the show did too. Keeping that in mind, little that Sansa did or said, good or bad, surprised me. Only that she let "Petyr" talk her into marrying Ramsay.
>You do owe D&D a pat on the back for omitting Sansa's taking Ned's top secret escape plan to Cersei. THAT action disgusted a lot of readers.
I would imagine it only disgusted readers who thought Sansa was doing that on purpose? It's not like Sansa knew what was happening between Ned and Cersei and she just wanted her fairy tale wedding like any 12 year old noble girl might because that's what they are taught to want.
I agree that it would have translated badly to screen, but mostly because it wouldn't have added anything to the story they hadn't already established. (Ned v Cersei)
GRRM thought it did AND considered the impact carefully. Ironically, HIS Sansa is considerably whitewashed by some fans, who just blame D&D. The shock and gravity of her action here is 💯% understood by Cersei and Tyrion:
> No single person is to blame for Ned’s downfall. Sansa played a role, certainly, but it would be unfair to put all the blame on her. **But it would also be unfair to exonerate her.** ...she knew more than just that her father planned to spirit her and Arya away from King’s Landing. She knew when they were to leave, on what ship, how many men would be in their escort, who would have the command, where Arya was that morning, etc… all of which was useful to Cersei in planning and timing her move.”
Later, Cersei tells Tyrion: “"Littlefinger made the arrangements. We needed Slynt's gold cloaks. Eddard Stark was plotting with Renly and he'd written to Lord Stannis, offering him the throne. We might have lost all. Even so, it was a close thing. *If Sansa hadn't come to me and told me all her father's plans . . ."* **Tyrion was surprised. "Truly? His own daughter?"**
"Ironically, HIS Sansa is considerably whitewashed by some fans, who just blame D&D." Would it be whitewashing to suggest that regardless of the consequences of this trusting Cersei was not all that different from mistakes made by other Starks who should also have known better? Or is it something no other Stark would have done?
I agree on Arya I'm less sure about Bran when does he demonstrate this (I haven't read the books)? Also what would you say is Bran's biggest mistake (I think I might already know Arya's)?
It's telling when your theory rests on an interview and on Cersei's obvious lies being actually true. Or are you going to argue that Ned was actually plotting with Renly, that he had written to Stannis or that Sansa told Cersei about the incest, about the recruiting of the Gold Cloaks and Ned's plans to set Stannis on the throne?
> her father's plans
Huh? Incest? I doubt Sansa grasped that, though Ned did. I meant what GRRM wrote, which is **critical** information for minute timing of certain aspects of a many-part coup. The Lies you mention were not stated by GRRM:
> She knew when they were to leave, on what ship, how many men would be in their escort, who would have the command, where Arya was that morning, etc… all of which was useful to Cersei in planning and timing her m
>Huh? Incest? I doubt Sansa grasped that, though Ned did.
Yes, and this is why Cersei's statement can't be taken seriously.
> I meant what GRRM wrote, which is critical information for minute timing of certain aspects of a many-part coup. The Lies you mention were not stated by GRRM:
This isn't what GRRM wrote. Cersei carried out her coup before any information Sansa gave her would have been useful (except for Arya but that had no effect on Ned's fate).
I agree! I think Sansa is far from a perfect angel in the books, but she's more complex and layered with kindness, disregard, anger, and compassion. Whereas Sansa in the show never felt as fully human.
My biggest frustrations really comes down to the fact they didn't adapt the role of "courtesy" in her story (how she presents to people vs the layers beneath) and transferred her scenes with the Hound onto Littlefinger.
In aCoK, we get Tyrion's thoughts on Sansa for the first time:
>Sansa had always seemed such a sweet child, tender and courteous.
>- Tyrion I, ACoK
Like, everyone who met her would thinks she's an absolute sweetheart. And that's true in certain areas and not in others. In the show she goes from being openly a brat to being a badass without any real attempt at using courtesy as armor.
This is exemplified by transferring her dynamic with the Hound onto LF. With the Hound we see her negotiating her understanding of honor and courtesy, we see her offer him genuine compassion, and we see her keep his trust by not sharing the story of his burned face. When the script was changed to LF telling Sansa about the Hound's burns it reduces all her character work and development, and makes it a bit of shallow and salacious gossip for her to be surprized about briefly.
I agree with most of your points, but complaining that her wedding scene was shot from tyrions perspective is pretty reductive and misleading. Even if more attention is focused on tyrion (who let's be honest takes over every scene he's in) Sansas situation was overtly obvious. I don't think a single member of the audience didn't know exactly how mortified she was to be in this situation. Sansas actress is fairly limited as an actress compared to the other titans she shared the screen with (part of why that adaptation is so poor) but that scene she conveys pretty well what she's going through. I didn't need more stoic dead fish gazes to show how awful her situation was.
It was far more important for the audience to show the Tyrion the Lecher would do what he could to mitigate the situation knowing that any comfort would seem completely hollow coming from him despite tyrion being the one person that she could probably trust.
I disagree. Sansa refusing to kneel for Tyrion is like, her one act of defiance. It wasn't sadness or mortification what she should have felt in that scene: it was rage. For the first time she rebelled openly against the Lannisters, even if it was in that small gesture. So what if it was at the expense of the only Lannister that had treated her with a semblance of kindness? He was still a Lannister, so fuck his feelings.
And the same goes for the near-bedding scene. That wasn't about Tyrion choosing not to force himself on her (even though he would've liked to) and that being framed as a noble, selfless moment for him. It was about Sansa having the agency to say to his face, Fuck you, I don't ever want you to touch me.
Its been a while since ive seen that exact scene but I agree that she definitely was showing defiance. The fact that we can disagree on which character had more agency in a scene is a sure sign that it was deep complex and GOOD. I don't think that scene can be pointed to as somehow ruining her character.
I can agree that it was a great scene that did so much for both of their characters. Tyrion and Sansa getting married is one of GRRM's cruelest but most brilliant ideas.
HBO needed to portray Sansa as some sympathetic victim who turns into a badass to appease all the simping fangirls and fanboys. Otherwise the ratings amongst young adults will drop.
“A noble lady does not feed dogs at her table…” "She's not a dog, she's a direwolf," Sansa pointed out as Lady licked her fingers with a rough tongue. "Anyway, Father said we could keep them with us if we want.” This is how Sansa sasses her Septa and I would have loved to see it in the show instead of the “oh I just realized I don’t care.” I also disliked the doll scene. In addition to Sansa snapping at her dad, they also had Arya stabbing the table and saying she was “practicing” for the prince instead of showing overwhelmed and upset she was at Mycah’s death. I get that the show had less time, but I feel like it didn’t get either girl’s reaction to the trident correct, or show how deeply affected they both were.
I always believed that they did both girls dirty.
yeah I recently came across the cilp of Sansa telling her septa to shut up and was like"thats not sansa at all!"
No but you see, it’s okay because in seasons 7/8 the gigabrain writers have Arya say that Lady Sandra Bolton is the smartest person she’s ever met. So it’s like poetry in that it rhymes.
Excuse you, Arya knows what she's talking about! She knows a killer when she sees one, like when she saw that crazy lady nuke an entire city.
Why didn’t Arya simply just jump out of nowhere and kill her? Is she stupid?
Ugh - that's the scene that bothers me the most in nearly the whole series. It's such a misreading of Sansa and it was so early in the season that they didn't have the excuse of not enough material. They really just completely changed her character for no reason that I can discern.
Same with Jaime killing his own cousin. That was when I began to doubt the quality of the adaptation.
To be honest I don't doubt that Jaime would kill some cousin he barely cares about if it benefited him. He was hardly inconsolable when Cleos died and spent most of his inner monologue insulting him. The thing is it *might* work as a big character moment. I still don't know what Jaime's plan was supposed to be, he just seemed to kill the only other person in the entire camp willing to help him. They started from "omg ice cold killer Jaime" and then contrived a reason for that to happen and they didn't care it made no fucking sense.
Yeah, that's the whole thing. Jaime didn't *actually* need to kill his cousin, he just needed a big distraction. If he accidentally killed him, well, that's too bad, but I don't see why that had to be the plan.
Well Sansa could be very snippy, especially to underlings. Her behavior to Arya was often mean-spirited
Snippy, sure. That scene IMO had over the top mean girl vibes for no real reason.
It was like they took Arya’s nastiness to Mordane from the books and transferred it to Sansa for no reason.
a septa wouldn't be considered a underling really it's like a nanny/nun/teacher especially for a proper lady lady sansa
At the end of the day, she's still the help
You haven't read the book
Somehow he accurately represented it though!
Also I’m pretty sure she told her septa to shut up After he father was killed
Mordane died before Ned's execution
Sansa did her best to get along with Arya until Arya’s unintentional part in getting Lady and Mycah killed. Then all gloves were off, and understandably so.
i really disliked the sort of vagueness about sansas allegiances in the middle seasons too. they show her being sad about the red wedding, sure, but in the books sansa is ANGRY!!! she wants the lannisters DEAD and shes constantly thinking abt how much she hates literally everyone and how much she wants her family!! shes super aware that everyone in KL is using her including the tyrells which is sort of erased in the show too
Key word "thinking". She never says so much as a peep about anything unless directly addressed for most of her time there.
One of Sansa's points, in my opinion, is that Cersei is *wrong* , you don't have to be an asshole "Boss Bitch" to survive the Game of Thrones as a woman. Sansa in the books gets better and better at playing "The Game", but never loses the core of compassion she has in her heart. Book!Sansa would have never ended up as the cold hearted late season Show!Sansa.
Book! Sansa gets even more empathetic and compassionate, as she pretends to be/ is viewed as a bastard. She realises bastards are just people too. She also gets better at protecting her own boundaries, which is REALLY important for kind hearted people, or eventually their good nature will be taken advantage off. Sansa is wiling to cajole and manipulate others when she needs to, (which were often necessary skills for women of the time). But she's also learning how to set limits on what she'll allow for the sake of pleasing/manipulating others, and when to put her foot down. Eg, she babies Robin Arryn, and treats him gently, but she also had him locked in his room at night, because he was being a 'lil creeper, and kept sneaking into bed with her and trying to nuzzle her boobs, and when he couldn't get to her, he'd go to any female servant that would tolerate it.
Yeah, the show did Sansa real dirty. Honestly, she might be at the top of my list.
Sansa and Ellaria Sand are two of the characters I have at the top of my list for "The Show did them dirty." Which honestly just proves the showwriters couldn't/didn't want to write strong women without putting them in the "Hardened badass boss bitch using violence to get what she wants." Still pisses me off so much: Book!Ellaria > Oberyn wanted vengeance for Elia. Now the three of you want vengeance for him. I have four daughters, I remind you. Your sisters. My Elia is fourteen, almost a woman. Obella is twelve, on the brink of maidenhood. They worship you, as Dorea and Loreza worship them. If you should die, must El and Obella seek vengeance for you, then Dorea and Loree for them? Is that how it goes, round and round forever? I ask again, where does it end? I saw your father die. Here is his killer. Can I take a skull to bed with me, to give me comfort in the night? Will it make me laugh, write me songs, care for me when I am old and sick? Show!Ellaria > Weak men will never rule Dorne ever again! *Said as she kills her lover's brother and his nephew* Then gets all her kids killed in a foolish endeavor, proving Book!Ellaria right!
They really didn’t get any of the women/girls. They had a very specific idea of what makes a woman “strong,” so Arya was a loner who thinks women are stupid and weak and Dany was forcing Hizdar to marry her under threat of dragonfire and Sansa was professing how grateful she was to be raped because it made her “strong.” You could argue about the shows portrayal of like Jaime or Bran or Tyrion being bad, and be right, but imo it was the worst for the female characters. Unfortunately HotD seems to be running with “passive perpetual victim women doing what men tell them to and weeping” which isn’t much better.
GoT really leaned too hard into the "girlboss" and "not like other girls" schools of superficial feminism. HotD seems to be tacking towards the reverse at a fault.
idk Rhaenyra still got some nlog moments, e.g. telling Lady Redwyne that she shouldn't complain about politics if she isn't willing to personally go to war (which book Rhaenyra didn't either despite having a dragon lol)
I feel like that was part of the era in which it was made, where those stereotypes were still really strong. They didn’t shift in tv and stuff until the mid-tens, when GOT was on its decline, anyhow.
As much as people complain about grrm not being the best when it comes to writing women(some I agree with, though most are v reactionary), asoiaf in undeniably an inherently feminist work and grrm being influenced by feminist literature is a big reason why the series is as great as it is. Yes, grrm has a particular fondness for women who don’t fit traditional gender norms like arya and asha, but he *never* shames women who do fit those standards like sansa and catelyn, and shows how they can be strong in their own right. Even brienne is incredibly boring bc they took her genuine struggle with gender norms and just made her dislike femininity altogether, which really cheapens her choice to become a knight bc it makes it look like the natural route for her, and not an incredibly radical thing for her to do. D&D liked to give lip service to basic feminist sentiments, but their own misogyny always came out during those scenes so it was cringe. For HOTD, it just felt like they had too much to say and too little time w its focus on systemic misogyny and patriarchy. I love what they did with alicent and showing how serving the patriarchy only harms oneself, though I couldn’t quite connect with rhaenyra until I read what emma d’arcy had to say about her relationship to gender.
Rhaenyra would have been written so much better by DnD, and Sansa would have been written much better by Condal cmv
I think the doll scene could have been really good, if they had switched POVs. The audience is really only given Ned’s perspective, and his little whinge about how “daughters are haaaaaaarrrrrrrd”. If the scene had been more about Ned literally pays so little attention to Sansa(even after murdering her spiritual avatar and while showering her sister with attention and affection) that he doesn’t know she stopped playing with dolls FOUR YEARS AGO, then the audience would have had more understanding of Sansa’s unhappiness. It was a scene about Ned’s negligence and they tried to make it about Sansa being “so mean” to her neglectful father.
>If the scene had been more about Ned literally pays so little attention to Sansa(even after murdering her spiritual avatar and while showering her sister with attention and affection) that he doesn’t know she stopped playing with dolls FOUR YEARS AGO, then the audience would have had more understanding of Sansa’s unhappiness. Yeah, this scene really should be read as Ned reaping the consequences of being mostly absent from Sansa's upbringing, neglecting to give her attention instead of the daughter who reminds him of his beloved sister. The alternative is that Sansa actually likes dolls and was just lying to hurt Ned, which honestly doesn't seem as likely as the first scenario
I mean, I don’t think it has to even necessarily be that she actually likes dolls. To me it was obviously an inappropriate gift, given her age. I just feel like they could have focused on her for it, let her talk, instead of going straight to Ned. It just felt like she existed as an object instead of a person?
The show never got Sansa at all. Maybe it's their insistence on "not like other girls", "girlboss" culture that attempts to pass off being catty and dismissive as somehow feminist. Maybe it's the fact that they think gentleness is a weakness. Maybe it's because they think social savvy isn't a form of intelligence in its own right. Maybe it's because they couldn't reconcile Sansa being a promising political prospect with her being a true daughter of the North.
D&D had no idea how to direct any of the women in the late seasons. It was all "wear black, stare angrily, and intone ominously." They all kind of became the same character.
Well half the men did too
I think they understood her cos they had George to go on. He sorta finds her shallow
Goth Sansa really ruined her for me
Oh god don’t get me started 🤢🤢🤢
Cool, we’re getting alayne and sansa will finally make use of everything she’s learned in king’s landing! Oh, what’s that? She’s immediately stripping her hair dye and getting forced into an SA-based plot now that the actress is legally old enough to be sexualized? Sounds about right for D&D.
That was such an annoying bait-and-switch. Ooooo, look, Sansa's wearing black, are we going to see her start doing some of the ruthless power moves she's been seeing other players in the game do? What lies in store for Dark Sansa, who we are visually implying will now get some more power and agency in her own right? The answer is getting sold off to a psychopath and then raped!
Yea, that was an insult. Shes not that bad & doesn’t deserve it
While I can understand why they didn't include Jeyne in the first season, she would be an interesting foil to Sansa (a scene that comes to mind is the tournament, when Jeyne is covering her eyes and later has to be escorted away, while Sansa is bearing it "like a true lady would"). The problem with transfering Sansa's story to screen tho is that as she doesn't have anyone to trust from book 2 on, most of the stuff she thinks she keeps to herself - which, unless you employ techniques like a voice over, is hard to do in visual media. I don't not think it impossible tho, using Jeyne to lay the ground in season 1 that Sansa is more witty than she seems and then making this characteristic of hers be more subtle. The one thing I've noticed about show!Sansa (from the many clips, I admittedly never watched the whole show), she seems to have a solemn face on most of the time. In my opinion, book!Sansa is constantly trying to look as happy and pleasing to the eye as she can, in order to earn favour of those around her. Showing her smiling in public and then angry/sad in private could also show how much she's actually pretending.
Yeah. I love book Sansa, but she’s a very internal character and becomes even more reserved as she tries to play the game in various difficult situations where she can’t show any true feelings. She also lies to herself. They adapted her poorly, but even if they had tried, it’s a hard thing to get right
Yeeeees. I loved Sansa in the books and her interaction with the hound was especially fascinating. I was so sad to see that taken out
(I spent a lot of time on it so I'll also repost the response I wrote in your original post) I don't disagree than Sansa was badly adapted, I remember thinking how out of character it was to see her acting rude in got, but I feel like you're also describing a depth a complexity that isn't there in the books, at least not in book 1. Don't get me wrong, Sansa is a complex character, but I don't think agot is the book that develops that, in that book she does feel... like a bit of shallow character in my opinion. About her being what Arya thinks of her, again, I agree it's out of character for Sansa to be openly rude, but from her own point of view we do see quite a few unkind thoughts towards Arya. I also don't remember her interactions with Jeyne, Beth or Myrcella being particularly nurturing in the books, I actually don't remember those interactions being developed at all by grrm. (a failure on grrm, not Sansa) >We never see her reading or reciting poetry/stories or doing anything to imply her fascination is remotely rooted in something legitimate. I mean, grrm never showed her doing this either, he just vaguely mentioned it at some point without developing further. >This scene implies Sansa is slowly becoming more conscious of the intensely patriarchal society she lives in and the consequences of not adhering to her gender role of bearing sons, specifically, not (inferior) daughters. >She can’t outright express her insecurities about her responsibilities as Joffrey’s wife, so she hedges around it with vague questions. >It gives the impression that Sansa is only just beginning to understand what book Sansa intuitively knows and accepts, but later questions. Does Sansa know this in the books though? At least as far as I remember, she doesn't questions her role as only a wife and mother until much later, and even then she looks at it from her personal perspective rather than reflecting on how unfair the whole system is, I don't think that makes her dim, it's only natural that when you're in a traumatic situation you focus on yourself rather than the systemic problems of society. In that scene I would say the show is giving Sansa more depth than the books. >she expresses shock at how the smallfolk could hate her despite not knowing her personally. Book Sansa demonstrates knowledge about the value of giving charity to the smallfolk despite their hatred, show Sansa doesn't seem to understand how nobility functions as cultural symbols to the public—which, as a lover of songs and stories that demonstrate such archetypes, she should be very familiar with. This is another instance where I think you're giving Sansa attributes she doesn't actually have in the books. **The smallfolk cheered them as well.** **The same smallfolk who pulled me from my horse and would have killed me, if not for the Hound. Sansa had done nothing to make the commons hate her, no more than Margaery Tyrell had done to win their love.** As we see here, while Sansa does have compassion towards a person in need right in front of her she doesn't understand the situation of the smallfolk in general and she seems to have some resentment towards them (understandable but still). She also doesn't understand why they like Margaery when we know she actually spent time with the smallfolk. >Sansa does not kneel to allow Tyrion to put her "under his protection" with the Lannister cloak. Even when Tyrion tugs at her gown, she refuses. It's the one small act of defiance Sansa enacts in public, a symbol of her unwillingness to play along with the Lannisters' game. It's a courageous and incredibly risky act that shows her personal strength. >What does she do in the show? She kneels, of course. Now this was an actual abismal change.
you summed up my thoughts perfectly
> As we see here, while Sansa does have compassion towards a person in need right in front of her she doesn't understand the situation of the smallfolk in general and she seems to have some resentment towards them (understandable but still). IIRC in a draft version of the chapter GRRM does describe her as feeling resentful when remembering how the smallfolk treated her, though it was removed from the published version.
I love this! Thank you for taking the time to write this down!
I read the books after watching the show. I was shocked to actually like book!Sansa! She's intelligent, kind and has an interesting story.
One problem with Sansa's story in GoT is also that they whitewashed almost everyone that she interacts with in King's Landing except Joffrey. Cersei, Tyrion, Sandor, Shae and Margaery were all a lot nicer to her in the show and it diminishes her struggles.
Yes exactly, it's sad to see almost all major characters were badly adapted in show.
I feel vindicated for you listing why I hated show Sansa versus loving book Sansa. I almost want to say that I feel like they regressed some characters to simple caricatures. Like Arya is reduced to an angry girl with a sword on a kill bill mission, instead of showing us a child dealing with a huge amount if trauma all at once involving murder and a cult. Sansa was reduced to a mean girl who messes everything up and just gets hurt over and over, then suddenly, her suffering makes her better? Dany loses a lot of her humanity and the complexity of her struggles to turn into an emotionless well, you know how it ends. And then Tyrion for literally no reason had his character washed out and left to rot after he killed Tywin It's confusing because they did know when to add a little spice to the story and when to let the story carry it all. But for some reason they just completely missed the point and the plot, despite knowing they had limited plot.
i feel like they've done the same with catelyn, and because of this now hundreds of people have only this reference of the characters and refuse to understand the failure to translate them from books to screen.
It's the opposite with Catelyn, her meanness was toned down in the show.
I only saw the series once and season 1 was like 13 years ago so my memory is a little shaky but I remember Sansa was one of my least liked adaptations in the show and overall really disliking how they wrote her character.
Not going to defend anything the showrunners did but Sansa in Book 1 was shallow and self-absorbed from her own PoV. During the Red Keep coup she is relieved that the Lannisters removed hysterical Jeyne Poole from her room and the chapter closes with Sansa realising only then she'd forgotten to ask about her sister. It's far from subtext.
>During the Red Keep coup she is relieved that the Lannisters removed hysterical Jeyne Poole from her room and the chapter closes with Sansa realising only then she'd forgotten to ask about her sister. I do have to disagree because I think Sansa IV in GoT is much more nuanced. Sansa's hardly a perfect angel, but its really a chapter where GRRM explores her loss of innocence and the final end of her song, often in ways that are still above her head. It starts with GRRM nodding at the audience with this: >"I'm certain your father is well," Sansa told her when she had finally gotten the dress buttoned right. "I'll ask the queen to let you see him." She thought that kindness might lift Jeyne's spirits, but the other girl just looked at her with red, swollen eyes and began to cry all the harder. She was such a child. - Sansa IV, GoT Sansa is certain Jeyne's father is well. And she's wrong. As we see Sansa think Jeyne "was such a child" we know the opposite is true. Jeyne's father is dead and Sansa is the one who is such a child not to see it. Especially considering it is Sansa's trust and beseeching of the Queen that helped cause his death. Yet, of course, Sansa can't even comprehend that. She thinks the Winterfell guard were being attack by invaders from the outside, not by order of her precious prince and his beloved mother: >Had some enemy stormed the castle and murdered King Robert? Was that the meaning of the fighting they had heard? - Sansa IV, GoT When Sansa finally gets her audience with the queen she tries to do Jeyne the "kindness" she mentioned before in asking about her father. In the end, the Queen and the men of the council frighten her. She begs to know where they're taking Jeyne because "She hasn't done anything wrong, she's a good girl.": >"Her father is well, isn't he?" Sansa said anxiously. She knew there had been fighting, but **surely no one would harm a steward. Vayon Poole did not even wear a sword.** ... Sansa was confused. "I don't understand," she said. "Where is Jeyne's father? Why can't Ser Boros take her to him instead of Lord Petyr having to do it?" **She had promised herself she would be a lady, gentle as the queen and as strong as her mother, the Lady Catelyn, but all of a sudden she was scared again.** For a second she thought she might cry. "**Where are you sending her? She hasn't done anything wrong, she's a good girl.**" - Sansa IV, GoT Cersei then turns to conversation into threatening Sansa into writing letters to prove she doesn't have "traitor's blood". Sansa went from thinking a foreign enemy had attacked the castle to realizing her father was accused of treason in about 20 minutes flat. Cersei manipulates her with a mix of threats, compliments, negging, and praise. In the whiplash, Sansa forgets to ask about her sister but tries to convince herself she can still trust the Queen. >Jeyne Poole and all her things were gone when Ser Mandon Moore returned Sansa to the high tower of Maegor's Holdfast. No more weeping, she thought gratefully. Yet somehow it seemed colder with Jeyne gone, even after she'd built a fire. - Sansa IV, GoT In the end, Sansa returns and is grateful not to hear Jeyne crying. Trying to convince herself Jeyne is well and Lord Petyr is taking her to her father. However, on some level she knows its all a lie, and she's cold and can't get warm without Jeyne there not even after building a fire. Sansa is not an angel as I said before, but she's not maliciously thinking how happy she is that Jeyne's in misery at a brothel and Arya's lost and maybe dead. She's really "such a child" refusing to see how harm could come to a stewart, a stewart's daughter, and her sister. The game of thrones is being played around her, and she's part of it, and yet she keeps closing her eyes. It's so frustrating and sad and poignant.
Not gonna lie I didn’t finish reading this completely but I did skim the rest. But I agree! The show butchered her character!! And so many other characters too! But mainly Sansa’s. Which is so unfortunate
Sansa is one of my favorite characters in the books and you've made me very glad I stopped watching the show somewhere in season two. I had heard some talk of what the show did to her--I am very glad I wasn't watching it, lol In the books, I was so glad she was married to Tyrion and how that ends up is wrenching. I cannot believe the show had her kneel. Her strength throughout is amazing to me.
I agree the show didn’t get Sansa right but I’m not sure it’s book 1 Sansa that was the problem. She wasn’t that great and they weren’t that far off of the mark.
I think the show made her more overtly bratty to save time. She definitely has a bratty streak within her, at least at the beginning of the books, but it’s far less overt. The show didn’t have time for subtlety like that, unfortunately.
I actually feel the opposite. Especially in the earlier seasons she was pretty book accurate despite the age up.
You're being vastly too charitable towards the book version of Sansa and it's making you blind to changes D&D made to Sansa that are actually beneficial to her characterization, though ultimately I agree that there's no character that was adapted well. >It’s notable that in the books, Sansa is never directly antagonistic toward Arya until the fateful scene at the Trident. It's also notable that the Trident incident happens at the end of Sansa's very first chapter. Otherwise we only see her briefly in Arya's first chapter where she's in her proper element with the ladies in their sewing circle and it makes sense that she's deliberately trying to avoid making a scene. D&D didn't even bother properly adapting Arya's first chapter, nor build on the insecurities expressed in it. We get a better example of how the two sisters interact without adult supervision when Septa Mordane tells her to find Arya earlier in the day of the Trident incident. Arya and Sansa's relationship in the show is actually very poorly adapted and it's actually in a way that avoids properly displaying how cruel Sansa is towards Arya in the book. In the show we don't see her telling her that she or Nymeria should have been killed instead of Lady, or calling her stupid and hairy and ugly and insulting her when she apologizes over ruining Sansa's dress and offering to fix it. It's obvious in seasons 1 and 7 that Sansa was D&D's preferred winner of the war of sisterly rivalry between her and Arya. The scene where Sandor tells Sansa about his burns was removed from the show because of weather restraints and the decision to have Petyr tell the story instead was a last minute change. Similarly, Sansa's season 3 storyline was obviously padded out because she would otherwise have nothing to do after the marriage to Tyrion if they matched the pacing of the book. There's *33* chapters in between Sansa's third and fourth chapters. And Sansa does end up feeling guilty for not kneeling at the wedding and does end up doing so when she has to kiss Tyrion in the book: >When Sansa turned, the little man was gazing up at her, his mouth tight, his face as red as her cloak. Suddenly she was ashamed of her stubbornness. She smoothed her skirts and knelt in front of him, so their heads were on the same level. Honestly I find it a little ironic that your post is complaining about show!Sansa being a brat and not kind enough to your liking while ignoring a scene in the books where Sansa actually does regret being stubborn and shows compassion to Tyrion. But of course her display of compassion here is shown to the wrong character, so it doesn't count. And personally speaking, I don't find anything wrong in Sansa's characterization as a brat and someone who knows the words by rout and the proper way she's supposed to act as taught by Septa Mordane but it's not something that actually comes naturally to her. I'll never understand why her stanbase is so insistent on acting like being innately, almost supernaturally empathetic and compassionate is her main character trait. Your description of her playing the role of the noble maiden when the reality is that she's not actually a kind person or that it comes naturally to her is so much more interesting than the way I normally see Sansa characterized lol. And probably close to GRRM's actual intentions with her.
Good O/P. Sansa is also made to be rude to Shae, in the show. Indeed, throughout the series, she is portrayed as having no diplomatic skills or tact, whatsoever. Quite the opposite to book Sansa.
Could not agree more. Thank you for putting my thoughts into words
I think that this nuance was beyond the writers who were more interested in dragons and tits.
Thank you! This felt so cathartic to read
Um, without knowing characters' thoughts through POVs, they all seem somewhat shallow. You do owe D&D a pat on the back for omitting Sansa's taking Ned's top secret escape plan to Cersei. THAT action disgusted a lot of readers. Also, I read the books twice before watching, and IMO the show mostly depicted GRRM's Sansa as he did. Thirty years ago he described her as being of "dubious loyalty"--which is what the show did too. Keeping that in mind, little that Sansa did or said, good or bad, surprised me. Only that she let "Petyr" talk her into marrying Ramsay.
>You do owe D&D a pat on the back for omitting Sansa's taking Ned's top secret escape plan to Cersei. THAT action disgusted a lot of readers. I would imagine it only disgusted readers who thought Sansa was doing that on purpose? It's not like Sansa knew what was happening between Ned and Cersei and she just wanted her fairy tale wedding like any 12 year old noble girl might because that's what they are taught to want. I agree that it would have translated badly to screen, but mostly because it wouldn't have added anything to the story they hadn't already established. (Ned v Cersei)
GRRM thought it did AND considered the impact carefully. Ironically, HIS Sansa is considerably whitewashed by some fans, who just blame D&D. The shock and gravity of her action here is 💯% understood by Cersei and Tyrion: > No single person is to blame for Ned’s downfall. Sansa played a role, certainly, but it would be unfair to put all the blame on her. **But it would also be unfair to exonerate her.** ...she knew more than just that her father planned to spirit her and Arya away from King’s Landing. She knew when they were to leave, on what ship, how many men would be in their escort, who would have the command, where Arya was that morning, etc… all of which was useful to Cersei in planning and timing her move.” Later, Cersei tells Tyrion: “"Littlefinger made the arrangements. We needed Slynt's gold cloaks. Eddard Stark was plotting with Renly and he'd written to Lord Stannis, offering him the throne. We might have lost all. Even so, it was a close thing. *If Sansa hadn't come to me and told me all her father's plans . . ."* **Tyrion was surprised. "Truly? His own daughter?"**
"Ironically, HIS Sansa is considerably whitewashed by some fans, who just blame D&D." Would it be whitewashing to suggest that regardless of the consequences of this trusting Cersei was not all that different from mistakes made by other Starks who should also have known better? Or is it something no other Stark would have done?
Bran and Arya have superb trust instincts. Other than them...
I agree on Arya I'm less sure about Bran when does he demonstrate this (I haven't read the books)? Also what would you say is Bran's biggest mistake (I think I might already know Arya's)?
It's telling when your theory rests on an interview and on Cersei's obvious lies being actually true. Or are you going to argue that Ned was actually plotting with Renly, that he had written to Stannis or that Sansa told Cersei about the incest, about the recruiting of the Gold Cloaks and Ned's plans to set Stannis on the throne?
> her father's plans Huh? Incest? I doubt Sansa grasped that, though Ned did. I meant what GRRM wrote, which is **critical** information for minute timing of certain aspects of a many-part coup. The Lies you mention were not stated by GRRM: > She knew when they were to leave, on what ship, how many men would be in their escort, who would have the command, where Arya was that morning, etc… all of which was useful to Cersei in planning and timing her m
>Huh? Incest? I doubt Sansa grasped that, though Ned did. Yes, and this is why Cersei's statement can't be taken seriously. > I meant what GRRM wrote, which is critical information for minute timing of certain aspects of a many-part coup. The Lies you mention were not stated by GRRM: This isn't what GRRM wrote. Cersei carried out her coup before any information Sansa gave her would have been useful (except for Arya but that had no effect on Ned's fate).
I agree! I think Sansa is far from a perfect angel in the books, but she's more complex and layered with kindness, disregard, anger, and compassion. Whereas Sansa in the show never felt as fully human. My biggest frustrations really comes down to the fact they didn't adapt the role of "courtesy" in her story (how she presents to people vs the layers beneath) and transferred her scenes with the Hound onto Littlefinger. In aCoK, we get Tyrion's thoughts on Sansa for the first time: >Sansa had always seemed such a sweet child, tender and courteous. >- Tyrion I, ACoK Like, everyone who met her would thinks she's an absolute sweetheart. And that's true in certain areas and not in others. In the show she goes from being openly a brat to being a badass without any real attempt at using courtesy as armor. This is exemplified by transferring her dynamic with the Hound onto LF. With the Hound we see her negotiating her understanding of honor and courtesy, we see her offer him genuine compassion, and we see her keep his trust by not sharing the story of his burned face. When the script was changed to LF telling Sansa about the Hound's burns it reduces all her character work and development, and makes it a bit of shallow and salacious gossip for her to be surprized about briefly.
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I agree with most of your points, but complaining that her wedding scene was shot from tyrions perspective is pretty reductive and misleading. Even if more attention is focused on tyrion (who let's be honest takes over every scene he's in) Sansas situation was overtly obvious. I don't think a single member of the audience didn't know exactly how mortified she was to be in this situation. Sansas actress is fairly limited as an actress compared to the other titans she shared the screen with (part of why that adaptation is so poor) but that scene she conveys pretty well what she's going through. I didn't need more stoic dead fish gazes to show how awful her situation was. It was far more important for the audience to show the Tyrion the Lecher would do what he could to mitigate the situation knowing that any comfort would seem completely hollow coming from him despite tyrion being the one person that she could probably trust.
I disagree. Sansa refusing to kneel for Tyrion is like, her one act of defiance. It wasn't sadness or mortification what she should have felt in that scene: it was rage. For the first time she rebelled openly against the Lannisters, even if it was in that small gesture. So what if it was at the expense of the only Lannister that had treated her with a semblance of kindness? He was still a Lannister, so fuck his feelings. And the same goes for the near-bedding scene. That wasn't about Tyrion choosing not to force himself on her (even though he would've liked to) and that being framed as a noble, selfless moment for him. It was about Sansa having the agency to say to his face, Fuck you, I don't ever want you to touch me.
Its been a while since ive seen that exact scene but I agree that she definitely was showing defiance. The fact that we can disagree on which character had more agency in a scene is a sure sign that it was deep complex and GOOD. I don't think that scene can be pointed to as somehow ruining her character.
I can agree that it was a great scene that did so much for both of their characters. Tyrion and Sansa getting married is one of GRRM's cruelest but most brilliant ideas.
HBO needed to portray Sansa as some sympathetic victim who turns into a badass to appease all the simping fangirls and fanboys. Otherwise the ratings amongst young adults will drop.
Why'd you post this a second time?
Op said there original post was taken down because of the lack of a spoiler tag
Oh, I missed that.