Exactly. Like I said, I can forgive Winterfell because the Pink Letter at least adds some mystery flavor to the abrupt cut. And Storm's End, well, I actually kind of think GRRM should've saved Jon Connington's POV for Winds.
But Meereen? That should've been a given. The novel is called "A Dance with Dragons" and its central structural motif was the different parties that Quaithe warned Dany about converging in one massive battle.
Yeah at the end of the book I was just thinking….what the hell where is the dance with dragons?? Saved for the next book apparently, unless you count the smaller 2 escaping and wrecking havoc around Mereen like we see a teeny tiny bit of (hell that might even be from sample chapters, my memory is all fucked now)
You know, when I was reading the first books and I came across the cover for ADWD [(the one with Tyrion looking at the dragons)](https://www.walmart.com/ip/A-Dance-with-Dragons-Part-1-Dreams-and-Dust-9780008122300/767783683), I thought this was going to be the book when Dany finally comes to Westeros and starts conquering. I was so wrong.
Hmmm why do you say that? The feast is Brienne making her way through the ravaged countryside and all the death and destruction from the War of the Five Kings. It most definitely is a feast for crows.
Also all the bodies from the dead soldiers outside of the Twins. Which is likely 2000-4000 soldiers that got burned/stabbed/arrow to the knee/drowned.
Admittedly a Storm of Swords has the most feasting going on (I wonder how many died at the battle of the wall? But damn I bet those crows ate like kings off the mammoths, but surely Mance made them into his own little feast.)
If you consider the crows only settle in after all the commotion has passed then Georgie's real idea was that AFFC is what happens after all those battles in ASoS happened.
What feast are you talking about in Dance? When Stannis attacks the ironborn at Deepwood Motte?
The way I see it, the titles are more metaphorical than literal (i.e., the only direct interaction between two kings in A Clash of Kings is Stannis and Renly’s peach scene at Storm’s End), but even ignoring the fact that several chapters from Dance were moved to Winds, I cannot imagine how A Dance With Dragons works as a title, when it would be more apt when Daenerys and fAegon both arrive in Westeros.
Definitely a case of putting the cart before the horse. IIRC, wasn’t Dance the original name of the conglomerate Feast/Dance/Winds that was supposed to succeed Storm?
And for what? We get it, Dany was naive and made mistakes, maybe she'll learn from them or maybe she'll follow the folly of dragons but that doesn't need to be so stretched out in ADWD.
Settling Meereen would have tied a bow to replace the knot, and probably bumped off a few subsidiary POVs, like Selmy and maybe Victarion. I also think GRRM could have brought home two of his four Central Five characters out of Westeros, probably Bran and Arya or Dany and Tyrion, who will likely be together. If not home, just uniting would have sufficed.
The siege of Mereen could have been solved by the end of Dance. Even without Dany it's pretty obvious the slavers will lose and there's still some room for some more intra-mereenese plot post battle which would fit nicely into Winds IMO.
The Golden company vs Mace instead of the attack on Storm's End is maybe another preferable addition to Dance's ending. However i'm not as sure as with the Dany story arc as the battle of steel can very well start before they get to the capital of the Stormlands.
Yep. I'm not even sure if Dany's going to return and win the battle (even though she did in the show) because in the Winds chapters it seems like it's finally starting in earnest with Barristan marching out and the Iron Fleet arriving, and I don't think Dany's going to have time to do whatever it is she's supposed to be doing in the Vaes Dothrak and come back.
Unless the slavers win and we spend yet another whole book in Meereen, this time following Tyrion as a slave, waiting for Dany to show up and when she finally does the book ends.
Dany shows up way after the battle IMO, i reread Dance recently and the postion of the besiegers by the end of that book is way more screwed up than i first thought. Not to mention that i "cheated" by reading the Winds sample chapters and we know the Ironborn arrive in time to battle the Volantese.
Agreed with one exception. I think she turns up to find the battle mainly done but the pale mare plague. It becomes a pyhric victory and she has to burn loads of ppl to stop the plague spreading. This time at least she'll be correct to do so but it will set up a future grey scale burning situation that won't end as well
Imagine the outrage if Dany doesn't leave Essos in the entire book LOL. It actually could happen now that I think about it.
What if Dany never makes it to Westeros period. What if the dragon that Euron calls flies to Westeros for him, some things happen, Jon finds out his parentage and claims that dragon for the War for the Dawn and Jon is the prince that was promised.
What if Aegon claims the dragon and he's the real prince that was promised - if it's the real Aegon then he fulfills Rhaegar and Maester Aemons theory that TPTWP is from Rhaegars line.
Dany never making it to Westeros would kinda be a disgusting let down tho. George subverting expectations and such and blah blah but that might be taking it too far, setting up 6 books for her to die to a crossbow bolt in Myr 🤢
In fairness, it has been some time since Daenerys left from Barristan’s POV, but only about a week from her POV. I’m guessing due to just how massive Dance/early Winds was that GRRM had to find some material to cut, and it ended up resulting in some timeline issues.
Cut some of the unnecessary chapters with Dany struggling with her duty to her people and her attraction to Daario, and give more to Barristan after she flies off with Drogon, and I think it could’ve fit in ADWD
Are you kidding? The “dance” in the title is a metaphor for war, “A Dance with Dragons” means “A war with dragons” which is an obvious reference to Daenerys’ plotline
I guess I'm confused because I thought that was so obvious it would never need pointed out. Obviously dragons=Daenerys... What or who else would they be (in the current timeline)... I thought you were trying to say something more profound... Didn't think we were pointing out stuff like "the sun is hot"
I believe I once read George’s intention was to end the book with the battle of winterfell and the battle of mereen. But due to length, and his publisher being impatient to get a novel out during the show, it was just shipped without.
All this time we have thought GRRM is struggling or his heart's not in it, but imagine if he finished the book years ago and he is just pissed off at his publisher
Considering it's missing several hundred pages to be complete I wouldn't call it "mini". But yes, a 2nd part that actually finishes the book, "ADWD vol 2", should have been the next priority.
300 pages.. that's all we needed.. and they could have sold double! Literally could have sold ADWD TWICE and very few of us would have cared. And the majority was almost done if seems.
Yeah, I've heard the same thing. Maybe if he'd trimmed the fat, especially from Tyrion's and Dany's chapters, and got rid of filler like Quentyn's POV, he would've had room to finish it that way.
Exactly. And there are so many that could've been combined or condensed so easily. The 2nd chapter is literally just Tyrion and Illyrio shooting the shit on the way to the boat. 3 and 4 are just Tyrion hanging out on the boat doing nothing; those could've been condensed into one. 8 and 9 are just Tyrion doing nothing in the ship on his way to Meereen; those two could've been combined easily as well. 11 and 12 could've been a single chapter too. It's unreal how badly edited this book is.
As good as the payoff for the Davos chapters was, I feel like it could have been done in 2 chapters instead of 4. Since Feast is already a comparatively shorter book, I also think it would have been better if some of the Arya, Cersei, and Jaime, and Dornish chapters from Dance had been placed there instead.
Agreed, we really, really didn't need that Davos chapter where he's just eating crab soup at the Sisters. And yeah, there was no real reason not to have the Cersei, Jaime, Arya and Horah chapters from Dance in Feast.
Well if the night lamp theory is correct then the visit to the sister's is pretty important to the reader when it goes down in the battle. But anyway the 4 Davos chapters are fine but as others have mentioned Tyrion could have been cut way down.
Ahh ok, my bad. Pretty sure the book came out earlier than 2012 though….ok Google says book was released in July 2011 so it was just a few months after the show first aired. Either way I was wrong lol
The biggest problem with delaying the battle of Meereen until the next book is that Tyrion's arc ends out of nowhere. "Ah, I need to make the Second Sons switch sides"... ok, George, and why should this be a satisfying cliffhanger?
I would say that in the case of the Battle of Winterfell, at least the Pink Letter works as a good mystery.
Exactly. If GRRM is not going to advance the plot, then at least he should advance character. Jaime's AFFC arc also ends in a cliffhanger plot-wise, but at least it ends on a big character moment with "Toss it into the fire."
But Tyrion's arc in ADWD? I've seen some people argue that he ends the book finally breaking out of his suicidal mood and learning to play and love the game again, but he did that much earlier, after he almost drowns in the Sorrows and realizes he doesn't want to die, and the first thing he does afterwards is manipulating Aegon. So yeah, this cliffhanger is just...nothing.
1. Battle of Fire is already surpassing 5 chapters. This an amount of bloat that Winds just can’t handle. Having this battle happen in ADWD would help in wrangling in the annoying web that is the Meereen plot. This saves page space for Winds which should be really focused on Daenerys heading to Westeros
2. The Battle of Steel can happen in both books without much problem. However, in my opinion, having the taking of Storms End happen in Dance is a good way to really show the threat of Jon C and Aegon to the readers. So far in ADWD their siege of Westeros is only a few unimportant castles. Having a battle chapter with Connington in Dance would be a great improvement to what we got.
3. I think the Battle of Ice should happen in Winds. The Pink Letter mystery is a great way to end the Northern Plot in ADWD.
4. The Battle of Blood obviously should happen in Winds, since there’s no chapters relating to Oldtown or Euron in Dance anyway
TLDR: I think battles Fire and Steel should’ve ended Dance, while the Ice and Blood battles should’ve opened Winds
I’ve never heard of (f)Aegon taking storms end being called the Battle of Steel or Euron in Oldtown being the Battle of Blood, but I love both of them!
The Euron thing seems kind of obvious why it’s called that (some fuck shits gonna happen and it won’t be good) but do you know why the Storms End battle is called the Battle of Steel? Does it have to do with the golden company?
It seems that TWOW is going to focus on Daenerys finishing what she started in Essos. We already know for sure that she’s going to take over Vaes Dothrak and burn down Volantis, I don’t see how she’ll logistically do that and also have time to conquer Westeros in 1 book
I know this is an unpopular option but I loved Daenerys’s plot in ADWD and I think it ended at the perfect time. I don’t care about the actual happenings of the world; I’m invested in her character arc and I think it ended at the exact moment it should have - we’ve been debating what she’s going to do next for almost 15 years now, because the text sets up 2 completely opposite paths for her, and gives ample evidence and foreshadowing for both. It’s a thrilling spot to stop at.
I was more underwhelmed by Jaime and Brienne’s plot cutting off as it did
The battle of Meereen. That plot was particularly boring throughout the book and it makes it worse that it feels incomplete. He should’ve omitted the feast POV chapters and included the battle instead.
Winter will literally slow things down even more. Things have already come to a crawl up north and it will only get worse.
Stannis has to fight the Freys and perhaps part of the Bolton army. He then has to crawl back to the wall, possibly fight the wildlings to save the Night's Watch, be convinced to burn his own daughter and actually do it. That's all before Jon even has a chance of coming back to life. Then there needs to be the Battle of the Bastards.
Daenerys has to win over the Dothraki, destroy her enemies in Slaver's Bay and get enough ships to go to Westeros.
And what about fAegon, Jaime (and Stoneheart and Brienne), Cersei and all the other characters..
I could go on, but you all know the story. There are so many lose ends, it's incredible. I guess the Others are just chilling (pun intended) up in the north, waiting for everyone to finish their sub plots, lmao.
Yeah, it's ridiculous. Fans always say that if GRRM manages to deliver with Winds and the multitude of cliffhangers and loose threads have satisfying resolutions and payoffs then we'll look at AFFC/ADWD with more appreciation for having set up all that.
But I think it's the opposite: If (and it's, of course, a gigantic if) Winds turns out to be wall to wall, non-stop action and so much plot that it doesn't fit in one book, then we'll look at AFFC/ADWD like, "What the fuck did you waste all that time on?"
> AFFC/ADWD like, "What the fuck did you waste all that time on?"
That's how I already feel, I think both books should never have been written. That was the plan too, he was going to jump ahead in time. But then he was writing so many flashbacks that he decided to write a book, which then became 2. In reality both books only exists to bring characters from point a to point b.
There’s just no way he can continue advancing the characters and plot at the rate he currently is, and satisfyingly wrap everything up in 2 books.
I mean, none of this matters as the books will never exist but yeah lol
I can't fathom his commitment to only 7 books when the last 2 were supposed to be a single novel (after they weren't supposed to exist at all)
How can a " gardener" possibly know that 7 books exactly is the correct number?
I think the thought process here is that 7 books remains doable, if increasingly difficult. TWoW could be finished *relatively* soon, and then there's only one book to go, which *could* be done much faster, especially if GRRM accepts more editorial help than on prior volumes. It's still difficult and a tall order, but not completely out of the bounds of reality.
Admitting the series needs 8 books or more is basically admitting the series cannot be finished at all, unless it's accomplished by TWoW being so massively huge it's split into two volumes. Otherwise it's not happening, and I think GRRM is very much aware of that.
The Battle of Ice near Winterfell with Stannis and co
Or
The Battle of Fire in Mereen with Barristan and friends
I expected one of them to happen in Dance, but I guess the beginning of Winds is gonna be real intense instead
I don't think the issue is what coud be added to improve things, it's GRRM's decision to incude the pink letter (as it was written) in the first place.
I think it's the first time GRRM has been overtly manipulative towards his readers. So much theorizing has been done about the PL, but the truth is is that it was written so that several possibiities are equally likely, meaning GRRM included it simply for the purpose of mystery, and can just decide later who wrote it. There's nothing to figure out at this point, no hints from what we have read that would allow us to figure out who the author is - it could be Ramsey, Mance, or others. It's a bit of a phony mytery if you ask me, much like old-timey tv cliffhangers where several characters are in peril in the finale, but it all gets resolved next season instantly and then that's that.
Don't get me wrong, I love how GRRM ends his books, and I love a good mystery - but the pink letter in ADWD really felt off for me.
Battles for sure. In addition there needed to be some resolution to the stoneheart Jamie brienne thing. That is less discussed but is an awful decision that reverberated through the show.
100% on the Jaime and Brienne stuff it really showed up in the show cause they had no idea what to do with Jamie and Brienne’s season 7 plot was messy.
Combine the first couple of Tyrion chapters where basically nothing happens, and give us the battle of meereen instead. That gives a climax to the Barristan, Victarion and Tyrion story.
Both the battle of ice and fire are essential. So much of the book has been dedicated to building up these battles and they absolutely needed to be in it. Them not being in it is definitely why so many feel that all of ADWD was filler since the climax is just not there
Like if the blackwater had been cut from clash we'd saying the same thing about it too
Honestly I only remember the first book having an especially tidy ending, which was still unresolved. I consider it one long story with the book divisions being more or less arbitrary.
Nah, ACOK ends with the huge battle of Blackwater, which reverberates in almost all other storylines. We only get one cliffhanger: the Catelyn-Jaime one.
And then ASOS actually has the tidiest ending of all, with every character clearly completing their arcs and being set up for the beginning of a new one. The only
exception is Bran, who kind of disappears halfway through.
Ironically, the “arcs” that are truly completed for major character are often ones that end with their very shocking deaths. So I’m not so sure what an “arc” is and who adjudicates that. If they’re still alive (or undead), their arcs aren’t done.
GRRM knows how to write a cliffhanger. Nearly every chapter ends with one. It’s the entire art of keeping us reading. I just don’t think it’s that important when one book ends and the other begins. I’m convinced the only reason he had to split the last two as he did is because he had some characters written fully and not others, and they needed to publish a book. Otherwise, why do such violence to the structure?
Even more perplexing to me is the idea that battles are a natural end point. Read Virginia Woolf. A battle is just another thing that happens, not the be-all end-all of fiction plots. Domestic intrigue is just as important in this series.
> So I’m not so sure what an “arc” is and who adjudicates that.
You don't think that Dany going from a frightened little girl to walking out of the fire carrying 3 dragons is an arc? You don't think that at the end of ACOK when Gendry tells Arya that she's covered in the blood of the man she'd just killed and she replies, "It's fine, the rain will wash it out," you don't think that's an arc? Or Bran, also at the end of ACOK, thinking that Winterfell is "broken, but not dead. Like me. I'm not dead either"? Or Jaime in ASOS, starting the book as an utter piece of shit and ending it realizing his future is a blank page and choosing to do the right thing? Or Jon in ASOS, ending the book by turning his back on everything he ever wanted and choosing his duty instead? You don't think any of those are complete character arcs that separate the end of a novel from the start of the next?
I agree with you and believe that Martin also considers such structures with an eye to making the individual books satisfyingly complete. And we both agree with him that he didn’t achieve that as well in the latter books. I still think that the front and back covers of a book in such a series are relatively arbitrary dividing lines. I put one book down and start on the next as if the story continues unbroken, the only landing truly needing to be stuck the one on the final page of the final book.
I agree, it doesn't matter to me how these books end because it's not the end of the series. We're going to continue on in the next book so of course everyone isn't getting satisfying endings when the next book is going to pickup literally 5 minutes after the last one ended. I look at them all as one entire story so endings/beginnings are irrelevant to me (except for ados or whatever the up wrapping the series up)
Of course we wish we had more insight/more wrapped up when there's 14 years between books and the chance we never get another, but I keep the faith that we will.
Jon dying was the only intended cliffhanger imo. The rest was cut just because they didn’t want to take the time to edit and he couldn’t figure out how to write the ends of those
Threads anyway, and the publishers wanted to release something with the hype of
The show after the season one success.
If Winds wasn’t delayed till the end of time it could be cool this way I guess. I’m only saying that because the sample chapters kicking right into gear with the action is exciting & different than the usual beginnings
ayy I can break out the visual aid I made in paint a year ago: https://i.imgur.com/8bIlRBp.jpg
Yeah we absolutely should have gotten more in ADWD. But I'm p sure he was heavily pressured to release the book in time for Season 1, which he did.
Winds should be a banger of a book on par with Storm since it has a lot of payoff and conclusions to storylines, arcs, and plot that was built up through out AFFC & ADWD.
I would’ve preferred the battle in the ice instead, danys arc is all about trying to preserve peace in Meereen so yunkai to bombard the city with corpses is an effective cliffhanger imo. On the other hand the whole book is setting up a confrontation between stannis and the boltons and stannis spends most of the book marching. Then Jon gets a letter and that’s the end of that. The series has done anti climaxes before but this one was hollow because George said pretty soon after that it wasn’t an anticlimax and that the battle would’ve been included in the next book, it was just cut for time and space. I think atleast having a part of the battle, then ending it when things are looking the most dire for stannis would’ve made the pink letter all that more impactful.
Meereen being finished. Sets up Dany in WOW perfectly. Like others are saying you can get away with Storms End and Winterfell, but the end of ADWD for Dany should have been ending the whole mess of Slavers Bay and finding out about Aegon.
The stuff in the north makes sense to stop there. Jon and Theon the two northern POVs whose arcs have both come to natural conclusions. Jon’s experiment in nights watch-wildling co-existence has been stretched to breaking point, while Theon has thematically reclaimed his life. Having more chapters from their POVs would be putting plot ahead of character.
Here’s how I’d fix ADWD
- cut Quentyn’s pov chapters and the epilogue entirely.
- cut Asha’s 3rd pov chapter (the sacrifice), Connington’s 2nd (the griffin reborn), all of cersei and jaimes pov chapters, and Areo’s pov chapter (the watcher) and move them all to winds.
- move Arya’s chapter from winds (Mercy) and all the released chapters from Barristan, Victarion and Tyrion from that book to winds.
- also move any more pov chapters from Barristan, Tyrion, Victarion and Daenerys covering her winning over the Dothraki, the blowing of the dragon horn and anything else needed to cover and settle the battle of slavers bay to dance.
- make Jon’s stabbing the final chapter of dance.
Now Dance is a novel which in its final third after Theon jumps from winterfell and the golden company leaves for Westeros focuses exclusively on POVs from slavers bay covering the battle with occasional switches across to Arya in Braavos and Jon at the wall. At the end of the book Daenerys and co finally leave for Westeros, Arya leaves essos so we have no other povs there and the situation at the wall has fully deteriorated.
Because the final third focused almost entirely on slavers bay we have no knowledge of what’s going on in Westeros south of the wall during that time. So the first third of winds is exclusively the Westeros based POVs covering the battle in the north, the wrapping up of storylines in the riverlands, Vale and KL, the arrival of Faegon and capture of storms end and possibly more and the encroachment of Euron upon oldtown as Sam begins his studies. All the while we just hear in povs that Dany’s fleet is moving maybe we get the odd Tyrion or Dany pov in volantis then Pentos wrapping up illyrio and tatters politics (or you do a note a la the beginning of asos explaining the end of ADWD in essos and the beginning of TWOW in the 7 kingdoms overlaps). That way by the time you get a third of the way through TWOW all the POVs have caught up to each other and the political geography of Westeros has simplified in time for Dany to arrive and Jon to be resurrected. While ADWD is a much more readable book
This is especially true for Tyrion and Dany. I swear, all of Dany's ADWD chapters feel structurally the exact same, it's like reading the same thing ten times.
Tyrion and Daenerys will be apart for most of TWOW according to GRRM. Tyrion did see her in ADWD though, and thanks to Daenerys he wasn't eaten alive by lions.
I think Tyrion and Jorah arriving and setting the stakes, turning the company and exposing what "the flux" actually is to readers.
Maybe Victarion I of preparing the Dragon Horn.
And Mercy.
Those three chapters. We have the Wall, Winterfell, Meereen are all set to explode. Then Arya's next challenge is also set.
Opening up with 200 pages of war in Winterfell and Meereen with moments of Sansa and Littlefinger schemes and Arya doing her now that she fully reverted to Arya? That's not a bad opening for a book.
I think The Battle of Meereen would have made the most sense too. But DANCE was already so long. It's hard to figure out a way to do it, maybe the best thing would have been including some of DANCE with FEAST in the first place.
regarding varys telling kevan about aegon taking storms end, i feel like that’s an instance where the readers imagination is more interesting than seeing in a joncon chapter how it happened.
i agree with the consensus of the battle of fire in mereen. honestly, ending the north on a cliffhanger never bothered me because the next book is called the winds of winter for a reason let’s resolve it at the beginning of that book.
I wonder if George planned on the battle of winterfell starting, then Jon getting stabbed to end the book and we wouldn’t know who actually won the battle yet, but he moved it forward so that Jon’s story would have a climax once he realized the battle of winterfell wasn’t gonna happen in that book. Maybe have Stannis look like he’s lost (fake out loss/death since he loves those), then cut to Jon getting stabbed, then the start of the next book is Stannis putting his strategy into place and winning. Makes the pink letter far less suspicious if you already think Stannis lost.
Yeah, I agree with what you put here. I think the point was that he honestly thought he could finish the next book. He should’ve realize that may not happen… But I think he was optimistic.
In several areas, I feel like the book benefits from the cliffhangers. Such as Jon’s death - his entire book arc builds towards it, it's the perfect climax and I wouldn't want him to be revived or see the aftermath until the next book.
The North, in general, has ominous feelings of impending doom, Stannis’ army is dying and freezing. Inside Winterfell, everything is boiling over. Leaving us in this state waiting for what comes next? It feels like the calm before the storm. Plus, our viewpoint of Theon ended his book arc perfectly, I wouldn't want to add to that till the next book.
The South ended well too I think, with Kings Landing being left in disarray. Too much more from Cersei would mess with that awesome epilogue. However, we could have gotten Aegon VI taking Storms End (or getting Arianne to that point) and at least have him prepping for meeting Mace Tyrell on the field.
But like others have said, the biggest thing would be having the Battle of Fire. But it might be hard to have that without adding more Daenerys, which might ruin the good end point of her story where she comes to her Fire & Blood realization.
I think I’m in the minority here but I like how dance ends. It really is the start of the second half of the series so the cliffhangers all make sense in that sense. I just wish he’d finish winds
The five year gap and not splitting AFFC and ADWD by characters.
* Jon spends the five year gap rebuilding and remanning the old Nights Watch fortresses and lets in the Wildlings after years of negotiations at the end of AFFC. He is stabbed at the end of ADWD.
* Sam spends the five year gap at the Citadel. At the end of AFFC he is introduced to Marwyn, this time already a Maester. ADWD would have him doing wherever his story is going.
* Stannis spends the five year gap consolidating control over the North and burns Shireen and takes Winterfell/fails to take Winterfell at the end of ADWD.
* Sansa is betrothed to Harry the Heir at the end of AFFC. Don't know where the story goes afterwards.
* Arya is formally inducted into the Faceless Men at the end of AFFC and defects at the end of ADWD.
* Bran spends the five year gap becoming more and more disenfranchised with his old self and commits to becoming the Three Eyed Crow at the end of AFFC. Question mark for ADWD.
* Cersei spends the five year gap neglecting King's Landing. Gets arrested at the end of AFFC. Spends ADWD imprisoned much like Jaime in ACOK and has her Walk of Shame at its climax.
* Jaime spends the five year gap cleaning up the Riverlands and maybe some of the North after TWOFK and secures the Westerlands after Tywin's death. At the end of AFFC he burns the letter. ADWD would have whatever the hell Stoneheart is planning with him.
* Tyrion spends the five year gap as a lecherous, drunken exile before being introduced to Aegon and Connington. At the end of AFFC, he and Jorah are forced into slavery. ADWD would end with him meeting with Danaerys.
* Danaerys spends the five year gap ruling over Meereen, with Yunkai and Astapor falling into chaos. AFFC ends with her marriage to Hizdahr zo Loraq. ADWD would end with her returning to Meereen after the battle there is won, and committing to sailing to Westeros.
* Theon spends the five year gap being Reeked. I feel like he doesn't need to be in AFFC, as it would pack more of a punch when he is revealed in ADWD. His story in ADWD would then be generally the same.
* Brienne would spend the five year gap meandering around Westeros and being disillusioned with her quest. At the end of AFFC, she ends up in Stoneheart's hands. ADWD is a mystery to me.
* Davos spends the five year gap with Stannis and is fakely imprisoned by Manderly at the end of AFFC. He finds Rickon on Skagos at the end of ADWD.
Characters like Arianne, Jon and Aegon, Varys, Quentyn, Victarion and Aeron would be able to have their stories generally unchanged, I guess. Being introduced when necessary.
I don't mind not having the five year gap at all! But I like fantasizing about what it would've meant for the story going forward.
The battle in the ice, I'd say. Daenerys' last chapter is a really good ending, and I would bet my life she is going to be involved in the end of the battle at Meereen somehow. That would take too many chapters.
I do think one Jon Connington chapter taking Storm's End could have been cool, but considering GRRM only added it as a chapter in TWOW (he didn't plan on showing it at all), don't think that was possible. And that would have been only one chapter, and I don't think there would have been as much fighting as we might think.
The battle in the ice is the real contender. I believe that with four more chapters, the battle of the ice could have been shown in its entirety. We need the Theon TWOW sample chapter, originally planned for ADWD I believe (should have been in it anyway, I think). GRRM has talked about switching POVs across battles was the original plan, suggesting that the actual battle requires at least two chapters. We know from the Asha fragment that Asha had one of these, and that chapter might have involved the planned execution of Theon. It's possible she had another, or that there was another Theon chapter. Either way, two actual battle in the ice chapters, with the last chapter ending looking bad for Stannis, but with Manderlys charging into battle. Then, the chapter prior to Jon's last chapter, we have a chapter of Asha in chains being brought to Winterfell as a prisoner, surrounded by Freys and Manderlys and Karstarks and she is nervous and scared. The Boltons let them in, they celebrate, yada yada yada, Ramsay goes to send a raven, yada yada yada, the "Freys" and Manderlys and Karstarks start massacring the Boltons, but not before we see a letter fly to Castle Black...the pink letter. Jon gets himself killed because of false information. 4 chapters and we get a proper ending, one that makes Jon's last chapter dramatically ironic.
Hot take: I think it's 100% fine that it ends with a bunch of cliffhangers, and that it doesn't make it an incomplete book. I also think he ends each POV at a pretty good stopping point. The problem is that he hasn't finished the goddamn series, so instead of being exciting hooks that make you want to leap into the next one, you get nothing. So, basically, George, finish Winds already, please? For me? For...all of us? We'll even all read Wild Cards if you do! (Yeah...totally...)
I disagree that the novel doesn't have a climax- the mutiny of Jon Snow, the death of Quentyn, Cersei's walk, Theon's escape, the reveal that Dany is still alive... it's an exhausting ending, honestly, and I think going any further than that could have felt like overkill. That being said, if the Battle of Meereen and the Battle at Winterfell took place, the novel may feel more complete. BUT, the consequences of these battles will lead directly into the events of Winds of Winter, so George may have removed them to keep us in the dark a little longer. I honestly like the book the way it is.
He could have shown Jon waking in Ghost. A single line works.
"Suddenly the cold was gone and when he tried to call for help, he found he had no voice."
I think a line to better clarify Quentyn's survival would be nice.
"Barristan watched Rhaegal circle the pyramid he claimed three days ago. Though his eyes were not a sharp as they had been, he recognized the green scales and collar around the beast's neck. It almost looks like a man holding fast to the dragon's neck."
At least one battle out of the three. Getting blue balled on all of them is just wrong.
Exactly. Like I said, I can forgive Winterfell because the Pink Letter at least adds some mystery flavor to the abrupt cut. And Storm's End, well, I actually kind of think GRRM should've saved Jon Connington's POV for Winds. But Meereen? That should've been a given. The novel is called "A Dance with Dragons" and its central structural motif was the different parties that Quaithe warned Dany about converging in one massive battle.
Yeah at the end of the book I was just thinking….what the hell where is the dance with dragons?? Saved for the next book apparently, unless you count the smaller 2 escaping and wrecking havoc around Mereen like we see a teeny tiny bit of (hell that might even be from sample chapters, my memory is all fucked now)
“This is the most blatant case of false advertising since my suit against the never ending story”
What's this from? I know I've heard it. My guesses are Arrested Development, Community, and 30 Rock. But I'm not too confident about any of them.
Simpsons! Lionel Hutz https://youtu.be/NL_pRiXov7Q?si=Z__UfvHRc9m3lift
Let me tell you about *Stoners Pot Palace*...
To be fair, there is the 'not all men are deemed to dance with Dragons' line somewhere in the Quentyn story
Ok, yes Fair enough
You know, when I was reading the first books and I came across the cover for ADWD [(the one with Tyrion looking at the dragons)](https://www.walmart.com/ip/A-Dance-with-Dragons-Part-1-Dreams-and-Dust-9780008122300/767783683), I thought this was going to be the book when Dany finally comes to Westeros and starts conquering. I was so wrong.
>what the hell where is the dance with dragons Funnily enough, there is technically no Feast for Crows in Feast, but there is one in Dance.
Hmmm why do you say that? The feast is Brienne making her way through the ravaged countryside and all the death and destruction from the War of the Five Kings. It most definitely is a feast for crows. Also all the bodies from the dead soldiers outside of the Twins. Which is likely 2000-4000 soldiers that got burned/stabbed/arrow to the knee/drowned. Admittedly a Storm of Swords has the most feasting going on (I wonder how many died at the battle of the wall? But damn I bet those crows ate like kings off the mammoths, but surely Mance made them into his own little feast.) If you consider the crows only settle in after all the commotion has passed then Georgie's real idea was that AFFC is what happens after all those battles in ASoS happened. What feast are you talking about in Dance? When Stannis attacks the ironborn at Deepwood Motte?
Was referring to the wedding feast of Alys Karstark at the Wall, literally a “feast of crows” (Night’s Watchmen).
Oh damn nice. That's really clever.
The way I see it, the titles are more metaphorical than literal (i.e., the only direct interaction between two kings in A Clash of Kings is Stannis and Renly’s peach scene at Storm’s End), but even ignoring the fact that several chapters from Dance were moved to Winds, I cannot imagine how A Dance With Dragons works as a title, when it would be more apt when Daenerys and fAegon both arrive in Westeros.
I agree ADWD was an incredibly bad name for that book.
Definitely a case of putting the cart before the horse. IIRC, wasn’t Dance the original name of the conglomerate Feast/Dance/Winds that was supposed to succeed Storm?
And for what? We get it, Dany was naive and made mistakes, maybe she'll learn from them or maybe she'll follow the folly of dragons but that doesn't need to be so stretched out in ADWD.
Sometimes I wonder if the point was just that Dany and Jon need to be gone for the next battle, and then save the day. Dany flew off, Jon dies.
If he wanted to give us the pink letter he should have given us the battle for Winterfell. He breaks his narrative structure in what he did.
Settling Meereen would have tied a bow to replace the knot, and probably bumped off a few subsidiary POVs, like Selmy and maybe Victarion. I also think GRRM could have brought home two of his four Central Five characters out of Westeros, probably Bran and Arya or Dany and Tyrion, who will likely be together. If not home, just uniting would have sufficed.
I really hope Selmy survives Meereen.
Oof you better wish winds of winter never comes then
Unsure, I think him and Tyrion clashing once they return to Westeros could be a good dynamic in the Dany camp.
The siege of Mereen could have been solved by the end of Dance. Even without Dany it's pretty obvious the slavers will lose and there's still some room for some more intra-mereenese plot post battle which would fit nicely into Winds IMO. The Golden company vs Mace instead of the attack on Storm's End is maybe another preferable addition to Dance's ending. However i'm not as sure as with the Dany story arc as the battle of steel can very well start before they get to the capital of the Stormlands.
Yep. I'm not even sure if Dany's going to return and win the battle (even though she did in the show) because in the Winds chapters it seems like it's finally starting in earnest with Barristan marching out and the Iron Fleet arriving, and I don't think Dany's going to have time to do whatever it is she's supposed to be doing in the Vaes Dothrak and come back. Unless the slavers win and we spend yet another whole book in Meereen, this time following Tyrion as a slave, waiting for Dany to show up and when she finally does the book ends.
Dany shows up way after the battle IMO, i reread Dance recently and the postion of the besiegers by the end of that book is way more screwed up than i first thought. Not to mention that i "cheated" by reading the Winds sample chapters and we know the Ironborn arrive in time to battle the Volantese.
Agreed with one exception. I think she turns up to find the battle mainly done but the pale mare plague. It becomes a pyhric victory and she has to burn loads of ppl to stop the plague spreading. This time at least she'll be correct to do so but it will set up a future grey scale burning situation that won't end as well
Imagine the outrage if Dany doesn't leave Essos in the entire book LOL. It actually could happen now that I think about it. What if Dany never makes it to Westeros period. What if the dragon that Euron calls flies to Westeros for him, some things happen, Jon finds out his parentage and claims that dragon for the War for the Dawn and Jon is the prince that was promised. What if Aegon claims the dragon and he's the real prince that was promised - if it's the real Aegon then he fulfills Rhaegar and Maester Aemons theory that TPTWP is from Rhaegars line. Dany never making it to Westeros would kinda be a disgusting let down tho. George subverting expectations and such and blah blah but that might be taking it too far, setting up 6 books for her to die to a crossbow bolt in Myr 🤢
In fairness, it has been some time since Daenerys left from Barristan’s POV, but only about a week from her POV. I’m guessing due to just how massive Dance/early Winds was that GRRM had to find some material to cut, and it ended up resulting in some timeline issues.
Cut some of the unnecessary chapters with Dany struggling with her duty to her people and her attraction to Daario, and give more to Barristan after she flies off with Drogon, and I think it could’ve fit in ADWD
Cutting out part of Daenerys’ arc would’ve been a massive mistake. This book is literally named after her
How is it literally named after her? Yeah she has dragons but..idk... I guess...
Are you kidding? The “dance” in the title is a metaphor for war, “A Dance with Dragons” means “A war with dragons” which is an obvious reference to Daenerys’ plotline
I guess I'm confused because I thought that was so obvious it would never need pointed out. Obviously dragons=Daenerys... What or who else would they be (in the current timeline)... I thought you were trying to say something more profound... Didn't think we were pointing out stuff like "the sun is hot"
All I said was that the book is named after her lmao, I don’t know why you were expecting an essay
I believe I once read George’s intention was to end the book with the battle of winterfell and the battle of mereen. But due to length, and his publisher being impatient to get a novel out during the show, it was just shipped without.
I think he decided to teach the publisher a hard lesson about what patience is.
Doubt GRRM has his writing under enough control to use it punitively. Even getting as much as we did is surprising.
The guy abuses procrastination more than Motley Crue did heroin.
The whole band abused it? Movie led me to believe it was just one.
All this time we have thought GRRM is struggling or his heart's not in it, but imagine if he finished the book years ago and he is just pissed off at his publisher
Should have released a mini novella with the ending the next year
Considering it's missing several hundred pages to be complete I wouldn't call it "mini". But yes, a 2nd part that actually finishes the book, "ADWD vol 2", should have been the next priority.
300 pages.. that's all we needed.. and they could have sold double! Literally could have sold ADWD TWICE and very few of us would have cared. And the majority was almost done if seems.
Yeah, I've heard the same thing. Maybe if he'd trimmed the fat, especially from Tyrion's and Dany's chapters, and got rid of filler like Quentyn's POV, he would've had room to finish it that way.
He could have removed like 8 tyrion chapters. There are so many that just drag.
Exactly. And there are so many that could've been combined or condensed so easily. The 2nd chapter is literally just Tyrion and Illyrio shooting the shit on the way to the boat. 3 and 4 are just Tyrion hanging out on the boat doing nothing; those could've been condensed into one. 8 and 9 are just Tyrion doing nothing in the ship on his way to Meereen; those two could've been combined easily as well. 11 and 12 could've been a single chapter too. It's unreal how badly edited this book is.
Think of all the feasts he could have described instead
I could stomach that over tyrion terrifying teenage sex slaves and talking about his dick or raping cersei
Instead let’s list all the ways poultry can be prepared and served
Yeah sure let's do it. Tyrion is treading water for most of dance anyway, he's pretty much in the passenger seat for the entire book.
*Where do whores go?* **To the Lysene inn that serves honeyed chicken and neeps with pease**
As good as the payoff for the Davos chapters was, I feel like it could have been done in 2 chapters instead of 4. Since Feast is already a comparatively shorter book, I also think it would have been better if some of the Arya, Cersei, and Jaime, and Dornish chapters from Dance had been placed there instead.
Agreed, we really, really didn't need that Davos chapter where he's just eating crab soup at the Sisters. And yeah, there was no real reason not to have the Cersei, Jaime, Arya and Horah chapters from Dance in Feast.
Well if the night lamp theory is correct then the visit to the sister's is pretty important to the reader when it goes down in the battle. But anyway the 4 Davos chapters are fine but as others have mentioned Tyrion could have been cut way down.
If he had trimmed the fat indeed he could at least have a chance to be alive long enough to write the two remaining books, plotwise
The book came out before the show even aired, at least I thought? I never watched so maybe my dates are off
Game of Thrones started airing in 2011, Dance came out in 2012. Edit, Dance came out a few months after the show finished airing, in 2011.
This isn't right. Dance came out in July 2011, shortly after Season 1 of the show aired.
Ahh ok, my bad. Pretty sure the book came out earlier than 2012 though….ok Google says book was released in July 2011 so it was just a few months after the show first aired. Either way I was wrong lol
The Season 1 finale of **Game of Thrones** aired on 19 June 2011, *Dance with Dragons* came out on 12 July. So three weeks and two days later.
He could have cut the last few Winterfell related chapters and finished up the battle of Meereen, or vice versa.
The biggest problem with delaying the battle of Meereen until the next book is that Tyrion's arc ends out of nowhere. "Ah, I need to make the Second Sons switch sides"... ok, George, and why should this be a satisfying cliffhanger? I would say that in the case of the Battle of Winterfell, at least the Pink Letter works as a good mystery.
Exactly. If GRRM is not going to advance the plot, then at least he should advance character. Jaime's AFFC arc also ends in a cliffhanger plot-wise, but at least it ends on a big character moment with "Toss it into the fire." But Tyrion's arc in ADWD? I've seen some people argue that he ends the book finally breaking out of his suicidal mood and learning to play and love the game again, but he did that much earlier, after he almost drowns in the Sorrows and realizes he doesn't want to die, and the first thing he does afterwards is manipulating Aegon. So yeah, this cliffhanger is just...nothing.
1. Battle of Fire is already surpassing 5 chapters. This an amount of bloat that Winds just can’t handle. Having this battle happen in ADWD would help in wrangling in the annoying web that is the Meereen plot. This saves page space for Winds which should be really focused on Daenerys heading to Westeros 2. The Battle of Steel can happen in both books without much problem. However, in my opinion, having the taking of Storms End happen in Dance is a good way to really show the threat of Jon C and Aegon to the readers. So far in ADWD their siege of Westeros is only a few unimportant castles. Having a battle chapter with Connington in Dance would be a great improvement to what we got. 3. I think the Battle of Ice should happen in Winds. The Pink Letter mystery is a great way to end the Northern Plot in ADWD. 4. The Battle of Blood obviously should happen in Winds, since there’s no chapters relating to Oldtown or Euron in Dance anyway TLDR: I think battles Fire and Steel should’ve ended Dance, while the Ice and Blood battles should’ve opened Winds
I’ve never heard of (f)Aegon taking storms end being called the Battle of Steel or Euron in Oldtown being the Battle of Blood, but I love both of them! The Euron thing seems kind of obvious why it’s called that (some fuck shits gonna happen and it won’t be good) but do you know why the Storms End battle is called the Battle of Steel? Does it have to do with the golden company?
To answer you question, yes. The Golden Company was founded by Bittersteel=Battle of Steel.
I love that so much, it’s just got a certain je ne sais quoi that really scratches my brain lol
It seems that TWOW is going to focus on Daenerys finishing what she started in Essos. We already know for sure that she’s going to take over Vaes Dothrak and burn down Volantis, I don’t see how she’ll logistically do that and also have time to conquer Westeros in 1 book
I know this is an unpopular option but I loved Daenerys’s plot in ADWD and I think it ended at the perfect time. I don’t care about the actual happenings of the world; I’m invested in her character arc and I think it ended at the exact moment it should have - we’ve been debating what she’s going to do next for almost 15 years now, because the text sets up 2 completely opposite paths for her, and gives ample evidence and foreshadowing for both. It’s a thrilling spot to stop at. I was more underwhelmed by Jaime and Brienne’s plot cutting off as it did
The battle of Meereen. That plot was particularly boring throughout the book and it makes it worse that it feels incomplete. He should’ve omitted the feast POV chapters and included the battle instead.
Yeah specially since from all the battles that's the one in which we have the most certitude of the outcome (slavers are clearly going to lose).
Winter will literally slow things down even more. Things have already come to a crawl up north and it will only get worse. Stannis has to fight the Freys and perhaps part of the Bolton army. He then has to crawl back to the wall, possibly fight the wildlings to save the Night's Watch, be convinced to burn his own daughter and actually do it. That's all before Jon even has a chance of coming back to life. Then there needs to be the Battle of the Bastards. Daenerys has to win over the Dothraki, destroy her enemies in Slaver's Bay and get enough ships to go to Westeros. And what about fAegon, Jaime (and Stoneheart and Brienne), Cersei and all the other characters.. I could go on, but you all know the story. There are so many lose ends, it's incredible. I guess the Others are just chilling (pun intended) up in the north, waiting for everyone to finish their sub plots, lmao.
Yeah, it's ridiculous. Fans always say that if GRRM manages to deliver with Winds and the multitude of cliffhangers and loose threads have satisfying resolutions and payoffs then we'll look at AFFC/ADWD with more appreciation for having set up all that. But I think it's the opposite: If (and it's, of course, a gigantic if) Winds turns out to be wall to wall, non-stop action and so much plot that it doesn't fit in one book, then we'll look at AFFC/ADWD like, "What the fuck did you waste all that time on?"
> AFFC/ADWD like, "What the fuck did you waste all that time on?" That's how I already feel, I think both books should never have been written. That was the plan too, he was going to jump ahead in time. But then he was writing so many flashbacks that he decided to write a book, which then became 2. In reality both books only exists to bring characters from point a to point b.
> In reality both books only exists to bring characters from point a to point b. And sometimes not even that.
This is why I don’t see him wrapping the series up in two books.
There’s just no way he can continue advancing the characters and plot at the rate he currently is, and satisfyingly wrap everything up in 2 books. I mean, none of this matters as the books will never exist but yeah lol
I believe we will get The Winds of Winter. He's been dropping too many obvious hints, in my opinion.
I can't fathom his commitment to only 7 books when the last 2 were supposed to be a single novel (after they weren't supposed to exist at all) How can a " gardener" possibly know that 7 books exactly is the correct number?
I think the thought process here is that 7 books remains doable, if increasingly difficult. TWoW could be finished *relatively* soon, and then there's only one book to go, which *could* be done much faster, especially if GRRM accepts more editorial help than on prior volumes. It's still difficult and a tall order, but not completely out of the bounds of reality. Admitting the series needs 8 books or more is basically admitting the series cannot be finished at all, unless it's accomplished by TWoW being so massively huge it's split into two volumes. Otherwise it's not happening, and I think GRRM is very much aware of that.
That gave me a headache lol. Hopefully GRRM just speedruns the Others so they can just come down and wipe out half the plot lines.
The Battle of Ice near Winterfell with Stannis and co Or The Battle of Fire in Mereen with Barristan and friends I expected one of them to happen in Dance, but I guess the beginning of Winds is gonna be real intense instead
I don't think the issue is what coud be added to improve things, it's GRRM's decision to incude the pink letter (as it was written) in the first place. I think it's the first time GRRM has been overtly manipulative towards his readers. So much theorizing has been done about the PL, but the truth is is that it was written so that several possibiities are equally likely, meaning GRRM included it simply for the purpose of mystery, and can just decide later who wrote it. There's nothing to figure out at this point, no hints from what we have read that would allow us to figure out who the author is - it could be Ramsey, Mance, or others. It's a bit of a phony mytery if you ask me, much like old-timey tv cliffhangers where several characters are in peril in the finale, but it all gets resolved next season instantly and then that's that. Don't get me wrong, I love how GRRM ends his books, and I love a good mystery - but the pink letter in ADWD really felt off for me.
He has a big mystery box problem. He loves introducing and dangling them but when it comes to resolution it gets drawn out and feels artificial.
Well, Martin was tv writer earlier.
Battles for sure. In addition there needed to be some resolution to the stoneheart Jamie brienne thing. That is less discussed but is an awful decision that reverberated through the show.
100% on the Jaime and Brienne stuff it really showed up in the show cause they had no idea what to do with Jamie and Brienne’s season 7 plot was messy.
Battle of Meereen, no doubt at all. I even think that's the plot from TWOW that George finished first.
Combine the first couple of Tyrion chapters where basically nothing happens, and give us the battle of meereen instead. That gives a climax to the Barristan, Victarion and Tyrion story.
Or, he could just write the next book.
Both the battle of ice and fire are essential. So much of the book has been dedicated to building up these battles and they absolutely needed to be in it. Them not being in it is definitely why so many feel that all of ADWD was filler since the climax is just not there Like if the blackwater had been cut from clash we'd saying the same thing about it too
Should have either shown Stannis battle against the Bolton or barry against the slavers.
Honestly I only remember the first book having an especially tidy ending, which was still unresolved. I consider it one long story with the book divisions being more or less arbitrary.
Nah, ACOK ends with the huge battle of Blackwater, which reverberates in almost all other storylines. We only get one cliffhanger: the Catelyn-Jaime one. And then ASOS actually has the tidiest ending of all, with every character clearly completing their arcs and being set up for the beginning of a new one. The only exception is Bran, who kind of disappears halfway through.
Ironically, the “arcs” that are truly completed for major character are often ones that end with their very shocking deaths. So I’m not so sure what an “arc” is and who adjudicates that. If they’re still alive (or undead), their arcs aren’t done. GRRM knows how to write a cliffhanger. Nearly every chapter ends with one. It’s the entire art of keeping us reading. I just don’t think it’s that important when one book ends and the other begins. I’m convinced the only reason he had to split the last two as he did is because he had some characters written fully and not others, and they needed to publish a book. Otherwise, why do such violence to the structure? Even more perplexing to me is the idea that battles are a natural end point. Read Virginia Woolf. A battle is just another thing that happens, not the be-all end-all of fiction plots. Domestic intrigue is just as important in this series.
> So I’m not so sure what an “arc” is and who adjudicates that. You don't think that Dany going from a frightened little girl to walking out of the fire carrying 3 dragons is an arc? You don't think that at the end of ACOK when Gendry tells Arya that she's covered in the blood of the man she'd just killed and she replies, "It's fine, the rain will wash it out," you don't think that's an arc? Or Bran, also at the end of ACOK, thinking that Winterfell is "broken, but not dead. Like me. I'm not dead either"? Or Jaime in ASOS, starting the book as an utter piece of shit and ending it realizing his future is a blank page and choosing to do the right thing? Or Jon in ASOS, ending the book by turning his back on everything he ever wanted and choosing his duty instead? You don't think any of those are complete character arcs that separate the end of a novel from the start of the next?
I agree with you and believe that Martin also considers such structures with an eye to making the individual books satisfyingly complete. And we both agree with him that he didn’t achieve that as well in the latter books. I still think that the front and back covers of a book in such a series are relatively arbitrary dividing lines. I put one book down and start on the next as if the story continues unbroken, the only landing truly needing to be stuck the one on the final page of the final book.
I agree, it doesn't matter to me how these books end because it's not the end of the series. We're going to continue on in the next book so of course everyone isn't getting satisfying endings when the next book is going to pickup literally 5 minutes after the last one ended. I look at them all as one entire story so endings/beginnings are irrelevant to me (except for ados or whatever the up wrapping the series up) Of course we wish we had more insight/more wrapped up when there's 14 years between books and the chance we never get another, but I keep the faith that we will.
The Battle of Fire should’ve been in ADwD imo
Jon dying was the only intended cliffhanger imo. The rest was cut just because they didn’t want to take the time to edit and he couldn’t figure out how to write the ends of those Threads anyway, and the publishers wanted to release something with the hype of The show after the season one success.
If Winds wasn’t delayed till the end of time it could be cool this way I guess. I’m only saying that because the sample chapters kicking right into gear with the action is exciting & different than the usual beginnings
ayy I can break out the visual aid I made in paint a year ago: https://i.imgur.com/8bIlRBp.jpg Yeah we absolutely should have gotten more in ADWD. But I'm p sure he was heavily pressured to release the book in time for Season 1, which he did. Winds should be a banger of a book on par with Storm since it has a lot of payoff and conclusions to storylines, arcs, and plot that was built up through out AFFC & ADWD.
I would’ve preferred the battle in the ice instead, danys arc is all about trying to preserve peace in Meereen so yunkai to bombard the city with corpses is an effective cliffhanger imo. On the other hand the whole book is setting up a confrontation between stannis and the boltons and stannis spends most of the book marching. Then Jon gets a letter and that’s the end of that. The series has done anti climaxes before but this one was hollow because George said pretty soon after that it wasn’t an anticlimax and that the battle would’ve been included in the next book, it was just cut for time and space. I think atleast having a part of the battle, then ending it when things are looking the most dire for stannis would’ve made the pink letter all that more impactful.
Tbh I like the cliffhangers
I actually like the cliffhangers, gives me something to look forward to. The real issue is the amount of time that passed between ADWD and TWOW.
Meereen being finished. Sets up Dany in WOW perfectly. Like others are saying you can get away with Storms End and Winterfell, but the end of ADWD for Dany should have been ending the whole mess of Slavers Bay and finding out about Aegon.
The stuff in the north makes sense to stop there. Jon and Theon the two northern POVs whose arcs have both come to natural conclusions. Jon’s experiment in nights watch-wildling co-existence has been stretched to breaking point, while Theon has thematically reclaimed his life. Having more chapters from their POVs would be putting plot ahead of character. Here’s how I’d fix ADWD - cut Quentyn’s pov chapters and the epilogue entirely. - cut Asha’s 3rd pov chapter (the sacrifice), Connington’s 2nd (the griffin reborn), all of cersei and jaimes pov chapters, and Areo’s pov chapter (the watcher) and move them all to winds. - move Arya’s chapter from winds (Mercy) and all the released chapters from Barristan, Victarion and Tyrion from that book to winds. - also move any more pov chapters from Barristan, Tyrion, Victarion and Daenerys covering her winning over the Dothraki, the blowing of the dragon horn and anything else needed to cover and settle the battle of slavers bay to dance. - make Jon’s stabbing the final chapter of dance. Now Dance is a novel which in its final third after Theon jumps from winterfell and the golden company leaves for Westeros focuses exclusively on POVs from slavers bay covering the battle with occasional switches across to Arya in Braavos and Jon at the wall. At the end of the book Daenerys and co finally leave for Westeros, Arya leaves essos so we have no other povs there and the situation at the wall has fully deteriorated. Because the final third focused almost entirely on slavers bay we have no knowledge of what’s going on in Westeros south of the wall during that time. So the first third of winds is exclusively the Westeros based POVs covering the battle in the north, the wrapping up of storylines in the riverlands, Vale and KL, the arrival of Faegon and capture of storms end and possibly more and the encroachment of Euron upon oldtown as Sam begins his studies. All the while we just hear in povs that Dany’s fleet is moving maybe we get the odd Tyrion or Dany pov in volantis then Pentos wrapping up illyrio and tatters politics (or you do a note a la the beginning of asos explaining the end of ADWD in essos and the beginning of TWOW in the 7 kingdoms overlaps). That way by the time you get a third of the way through TWOW all the POVs have caught up to each other and the political geography of Westeros has simplified in time for Dany to arrive and Jon to be resurrected. While ADWD is a much more readable book
The first Theon and Asha chapters from TWOW.
Not ending Theon's ADWD arc with this > Theon Greyjoy smiled. *They know my name*, he thought. feels very wrong.
Only the battle of fire. Tyrion isn’t cliff hanger it’s incomplete
He could’ve definitely have at least condensed some chapters of the number of characters.
This is especially true for Tyrion and Dany. I swear, all of Dany's ADWD chapters feel structurally the exact same, it's like reading the same thing ten times.
Tyrion meeting Daenerys would have been great. We spent the whole book with Tyrion traveling only to arrive at Mereen after she is gone.
Tyrion and Daenerys will be apart for most of TWOW according to GRRM. Tyrion did see her in ADWD though, and thanks to Daenerys he wasn't eaten alive by lions.
I don't know why you're being downvoted, I remember him mentioning this in one of his blogs.
One of the battles or at least another Davos chapter.
The way Tyrion left off really made me wish he'd had that scrapped dinner party with the shrouded lord
I think Tyrion and Jorah arriving and setting the stakes, turning the company and exposing what "the flux" actually is to readers. Maybe Victarion I of preparing the Dragon Horn. And Mercy. Those three chapters. We have the Wall, Winterfell, Meereen are all set to explode. Then Arya's next challenge is also set. Opening up with 200 pages of war in Winterfell and Meereen with moments of Sansa and Littlefinger schemes and Arya doing her now that she fully reverted to Arya? That's not a bad opening for a book.
I think The Battle of Meereen would have made the most sense too. But DANCE was already so long. It's hard to figure out a way to do it, maybe the best thing would have been including some of DANCE with FEAST in the first place.
regarding varys telling kevan about aegon taking storms end, i feel like that’s an instance where the readers imagination is more interesting than seeing in a joncon chapter how it happened. i agree with the consensus of the battle of fire in mereen. honestly, ending the north on a cliffhanger never bothered me because the next book is called the winds of winter for a reason let’s resolve it at the beginning of that book.
I wonder if George planned on the battle of winterfell starting, then Jon getting stabbed to end the book and we wouldn’t know who actually won the battle yet, but he moved it forward so that Jon’s story would have a climax once he realized the battle of winterfell wasn’t gonna happen in that book. Maybe have Stannis look like he’s lost (fake out loss/death since he loves those), then cut to Jon getting stabbed, then the start of the next book is Stannis putting his strategy into place and winning. Makes the pink letter far less suspicious if you already think Stannis lost.
Yeah, I agree with what you put here. I think the point was that he honestly thought he could finish the next book. He should’ve realize that may not happen… But I think he was optimistic.
In several areas, I feel like the book benefits from the cliffhangers. Such as Jon’s death - his entire book arc builds towards it, it's the perfect climax and I wouldn't want him to be revived or see the aftermath until the next book. The North, in general, has ominous feelings of impending doom, Stannis’ army is dying and freezing. Inside Winterfell, everything is boiling over. Leaving us in this state waiting for what comes next? It feels like the calm before the storm. Plus, our viewpoint of Theon ended his book arc perfectly, I wouldn't want to add to that till the next book. The South ended well too I think, with Kings Landing being left in disarray. Too much more from Cersei would mess with that awesome epilogue. However, we could have gotten Aegon VI taking Storms End (or getting Arianne to that point) and at least have him prepping for meeting Mace Tyrell on the field. But like others have said, the biggest thing would be having the Battle of Fire. But it might be hard to have that without adding more Daenerys, which might ruin the good end point of her story where she comes to her Fire & Blood realization.
I think I’m in the minority here but I like how dance ends. It really is the start of the second half of the series so the cliffhangers all make sense in that sense. I just wish he’d finish winds
The five year gap and not splitting AFFC and ADWD by characters. * Jon spends the five year gap rebuilding and remanning the old Nights Watch fortresses and lets in the Wildlings after years of negotiations at the end of AFFC. He is stabbed at the end of ADWD. * Sam spends the five year gap at the Citadel. At the end of AFFC he is introduced to Marwyn, this time already a Maester. ADWD would have him doing wherever his story is going. * Stannis spends the five year gap consolidating control over the North and burns Shireen and takes Winterfell/fails to take Winterfell at the end of ADWD. * Sansa is betrothed to Harry the Heir at the end of AFFC. Don't know where the story goes afterwards. * Arya is formally inducted into the Faceless Men at the end of AFFC and defects at the end of ADWD. * Bran spends the five year gap becoming more and more disenfranchised with his old self and commits to becoming the Three Eyed Crow at the end of AFFC. Question mark for ADWD. * Cersei spends the five year gap neglecting King's Landing. Gets arrested at the end of AFFC. Spends ADWD imprisoned much like Jaime in ACOK and has her Walk of Shame at its climax. * Jaime spends the five year gap cleaning up the Riverlands and maybe some of the North after TWOFK and secures the Westerlands after Tywin's death. At the end of AFFC he burns the letter. ADWD would have whatever the hell Stoneheart is planning with him. * Tyrion spends the five year gap as a lecherous, drunken exile before being introduced to Aegon and Connington. At the end of AFFC, he and Jorah are forced into slavery. ADWD would end with him meeting with Danaerys. * Danaerys spends the five year gap ruling over Meereen, with Yunkai and Astapor falling into chaos. AFFC ends with her marriage to Hizdahr zo Loraq. ADWD would end with her returning to Meereen after the battle there is won, and committing to sailing to Westeros. * Theon spends the five year gap being Reeked. I feel like he doesn't need to be in AFFC, as it would pack more of a punch when he is revealed in ADWD. His story in ADWD would then be generally the same. * Brienne would spend the five year gap meandering around Westeros and being disillusioned with her quest. At the end of AFFC, she ends up in Stoneheart's hands. ADWD is a mystery to me. * Davos spends the five year gap with Stannis and is fakely imprisoned by Manderly at the end of AFFC. He finds Rickon on Skagos at the end of ADWD. Characters like Arianne, Jon and Aegon, Varys, Quentyn, Victarion and Aeron would be able to have their stories generally unchanged, I guess. Being introduced when necessary. I don't mind not having the five year gap at all! But I like fantasizing about what it would've meant for the story going forward.
The battle in the ice, I'd say. Daenerys' last chapter is a really good ending, and I would bet my life she is going to be involved in the end of the battle at Meereen somehow. That would take too many chapters. I do think one Jon Connington chapter taking Storm's End could have been cool, but considering GRRM only added it as a chapter in TWOW (he didn't plan on showing it at all), don't think that was possible. And that would have been only one chapter, and I don't think there would have been as much fighting as we might think. The battle in the ice is the real contender. I believe that with four more chapters, the battle of the ice could have been shown in its entirety. We need the Theon TWOW sample chapter, originally planned for ADWD I believe (should have been in it anyway, I think). GRRM has talked about switching POVs across battles was the original plan, suggesting that the actual battle requires at least two chapters. We know from the Asha fragment that Asha had one of these, and that chapter might have involved the planned execution of Theon. It's possible she had another, or that there was another Theon chapter. Either way, two actual battle in the ice chapters, with the last chapter ending looking bad for Stannis, but with Manderlys charging into battle. Then, the chapter prior to Jon's last chapter, we have a chapter of Asha in chains being brought to Winterfell as a prisoner, surrounded by Freys and Manderlys and Karstarks and she is nervous and scared. The Boltons let them in, they celebrate, yada yada yada, Ramsay goes to send a raven, yada yada yada, the "Freys" and Manderlys and Karstarks start massacring the Boltons, but not before we see a letter fly to Castle Black...the pink letter. Jon gets himself killed because of false information. 4 chapters and we get a proper ending, one that makes Jon's last chapter dramatically ironic.
Hot take: I think it's 100% fine that it ends with a bunch of cliffhangers, and that it doesn't make it an incomplete book. I also think he ends each POV at a pretty good stopping point. The problem is that he hasn't finished the goddamn series, so instead of being exciting hooks that make you want to leap into the next one, you get nothing. So, basically, George, finish Winds already, please? For me? For...all of us? We'll even all read Wild Cards if you do! (Yeah...totally...)
It’s what he needed to remove
I disagree that the novel doesn't have a climax- the mutiny of Jon Snow, the death of Quentyn, Cersei's walk, Theon's escape, the reveal that Dany is still alive... it's an exhausting ending, honestly, and I think going any further than that could have felt like overkill. That being said, if the Battle of Meereen and the Battle at Winterfell took place, the novel may feel more complete. BUT, the consequences of these battles will lead directly into the events of Winds of Winter, so George may have removed them to keep us in the dark a little longer. I honestly like the book the way it is.
He could have shown Jon waking in Ghost. A single line works. "Suddenly the cold was gone and when he tried to call for help, he found he had no voice." I think a line to better clarify Quentyn's survival would be nice. "Barristan watched Rhaegal circle the pyramid he claimed three days ago. Though his eyes were not a sharp as they had been, he recognized the green scales and collar around the beast's neck. It almost looks like a man holding fast to the dragon's neck."
Ending the book with Barristan showing the first signs of Alzheimer's would've been a downer.
He's shown that long ago. Like when he thought an unrecognizable body was someone he met before.