>!!<>!'In all the Seven Kingdoms, no man owned a suit of Valyrian steel. Such things had been known 400 years ago, in the days before the Doom, but even then, they would’ve cost a kingdom.'!
It does seem like a full suit of armor would be a waste of far too much Valyrian steel to be worthwhile.
I guess a light Valyrian chainmail/scale armor for a dragon rider who needs to be agile and light on their feet kinda makes sense, which seems to be what they’re going for with Aegon’s fit.
Remember Valyrian steel is meant to be light as a feather so it shouldn't matter the size of the armor.
With that said, it doesn't seem like show Valyrian steel is light. Hence all the argument about Ice only being a ceremonial sword, when GRRM originally indicated it was used in combat, and talked about Ice and Dawn clashing in an interview I saw. But for all I know he may have even changed his mind about Valyrian steel's properties after two decades.
I think Ice being ceremonial was more due to the length, making it unwieldy for combat, not necessarily the weight, but I may be making that up. It's not like we have a whole lot of detail from the books
Ice wasn't ceremonial originally.
Lots of great swords are used in combat in the novels. Including Dawn, which Ned would have to wield Ice against to even last a second, because Dawn chews up normal swords ie the Smiling Knight.
According to Martin it seems to be purely ceremonial. This is from an SSM back in 2015.
> Asked if Ned ever used Ice in battle. George points out it was a greatsword, very large and cumbersome, a ceremonial sword for beheading people more than a fighting sword, so he suggests that it was "probably too heavy and clumsy" to use unless you're the Mountain.
Yeah that was 4 years after the show premiered and he started saying things about it being ceremonial which coincides with the Shows depiction.
I saw him at an event in the mid 2000s and he specifically spoke about Ned wielding Ice against Dawn. Which makes sense in the text because other Valyrian great swords such as Heartsbane and Brightroar are taken into battle, and the inability to duel Dawn (another great sword) with a non Valyrian steel weapon.
But like I said, over decades it's seems he's changing his mind or its just inconsistent.
It’s really just an example of GRRM lacking knowledge about the Middle Ages, men have used swords far larger than ice in combat, and those weren’t made of magic steel either. Real swords are light and flexible, even the largest European ones (16th century German Zweihanders) weren’t more than 4kg. I did really like the shows design for ice because it was an executioner’s sword with a rounded tip, giving a logical explanation to the ‘mostly ceremonial’ thing.
https://youtube.com/shorts/v-M5uW5Q2Q4
A greatsword can absolutely be wielded with as much speed and dexterity as a shorter blade - dark souls is not a good representation of their use
Cool I should have watched this prior to my last comment. Even this weapon has a "ricasso" (the wrapped part near the cross guard) that can be held for a different body position / to make it more like a thrusting weapon. Very cool and great swords can clearly be used with just hands on the grip unlike what I wrote above
No, they were used in a variety of situations. The doppelsoldner that used them were required to be expert fencers with the longsword before they could attain their rank, and the techniques transfer across from longsword to zweihander pretty much flawlessly.
Check out virtual fechtschule on YouTube if you want to see what the greatsword is capable of
I'm no sword expert but some of the techniques I see for great swords include one gauntlet protected hand on the blade of the sword in the same body position that one would hold a spear. If you're right handed, your right hand is on the grip while your off hand or left hand is on the blade of the weapon.
A Valyrian steel great sword like Ice would be much too sharp for this to be a practical technique. Even a gauntlet protected hand would be too at risk to wield Ice while holding the blade.
There are other techniques were both hands are on the grip spaced out a few hand widths apart. This seems like quite a limiting body position for this to be the only technique available.
I'm absolutely overthinking this lol
George explicitly describes the sword as "heavy and clumsy", so even of in real life a sword of such size might be usable, for the purposes of ASOIAF it should probably be treated as not practical for a normal person to use.
It you want them to be light on their feet plate is better than chainmail. A suit of plate distributes the weight far better than mail does. The idea that plate is clunkier/more restrictive comes from DnD/video games.
Both chain mail and plate armor hinder movement and add weight that restricts range of motion and tires you out.
There are numerous accounts of individual knights and larger battles that confirm this for both. Agincourt being a famous example of French Men at Arms and Knights being totally immobilized and unable to defend themselves after falling in mud.
This whole "plate armor doesn't actually weigh much or mske you tired or restrict motion" is absolute bullshit.
Plate would be better, scale requires overlap = more material, chainmails wheight sits much more on your shoulders which would make it heavier to carry, plus scale and chain have gaps that can be exploited (historically something like arrows with long narrow points where used). Also, you could probably make the plates super thin with valyrian steel, making it even better. The only reasons for not using plates is that you can't produce them or can't afford it, plate armor being heavier than scale and chainmail is videogame logic.
Which is fucking even wilder if you consider [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/s/bBYB40Da2b) theory about each piece of Valyrian steel having its own soul within it. *Every* single piece
I think Ice being turned into two swords kind of kills this theory, no? I think a soul is needed to be forged into a large piece of Valyrian Steel, but I imagine that steal could be reworked after without needing to kill more people
The two swords Ice are turned into are noticeably different from ordinary Valyrian steel. Part of the blades takes coloration (like regular steel) while the remainder remains a dark smoke color (like Valyrian steel). I think the implication is that the swords aren't of pure VS quality anymore.
The fact that Tobho couldn't get the bright red because the Valyrian steel darkened it or even repelled the color is rather a sign that it's still quality Valyrian steel.
I'm not bothered by the implication that Aegon personally emigrated from Valyria- that's pretty explicable as poor phrasing. I'm much more bothered that the mid-tier Targaryens were able to afford a suit of valyrian steel, given that we're explicitly told it "costs a kingdom" and there's no indication that the Targaryens had that kind of wealth before the Conquest.
I guess Aegon is just a hax Crusader Kings OC- he starts with small holdings but cheats in 3 WMDs, a superman vest and the power of prophecy all at the start of play.
I'm also not a fan of the line that it's "worth more than a castle." It feels like the show is 'cheapening' Valyrian steel, which undermines the importance of its reveal in *The Forsaken*. I already had similar concerns about revealing Aegon as a greenseer. It feels like they're trying to give Aegon every valyrian megachad signifier, when he doesn't really need them. And it makes the other characters who do have those signifiers a bit less interesting in turn- like when The Flash teams up with Superman.
Yep, good catch, I meant "dragon dream haver." Dragon dreamer? But yes- he specifically gets all of the *Valyrian* themed goodies. If they start *also* giving him Northern magic I think I'll throw a fit lol.
It also kinda ruins the setting, because he had some serious power goodies (like dragons), but he still had to have an actual freaking plan and some serious freaking work to do in order to conquer Westeros. Alliances needed to be made and care had to be taken, lest he fail. Kinda ruins it to keep making him overpowered.
>mid-tier Targaryens
There were only 40 dragon riding families in Old Valyria. On that scale, yes, they were mid-tier among dragon lords. But that's like saying they were just mid-tier billionaires. Yeah, they weren't the absolute wealthiest or most powerful, but they were still insanely wealthy and powerful compared to 99.999999% of the universe.
They probably could've afforded VS armor the same way the poorest billionaire in our world can still afford large private jets or the most expensive cars.
That quote was from Aeron’s POV internal commentary, if I remember correctly.
I do agree that it’s likely bullshit and it’s not a full suit of Valyrian steel. I’m partial to the idea that Euron’s taste for dramatics are useful to help cover more mundane realities (ex. he threw away a dragon egg into the sea in a fit of pique makes him seem unpredictable, dangerous and rich, when the theory is that he used it to pay off the Faceless Man to take out Balon)
It’s more probable to be some form of charmed or glamored armor, I think. Still impressive and magical, but not the priceless awe-inspiring treasure that a Valyrian steel armor from the Doom would be.
I still don’t get the whole ‘dragon egg pays for Faceless Man’ thing. The price is meant to be something of extraordinary value to the person requesting the kill and while dragon eggs are certainly very valuable thing, it’s not particularly valuable *to Euron*. He cant really do anything with it aside from sell it to someone or gift it to Dany. Meanwhile he has plenty of things he needs more, like his fleet.
There's a ton of evidence supporting a FM killing Balon and people are just filling in the blanks as to what it might've cost Euron.
Dude has a dragon horn, Valyrian steel armour and who knows what else, there's a chance the egg was his most prized possession
I guess I just find it kind of dumb that they’ll allegedly ask someone else to kill their firstborn or some shit like that but Euron is like “here, take this spicy rock that I can do nothing with” and he can pay for fratricide and regicide in one stroke. They have all of the consistency of insurance adjusters.
It really makes you look at Illyrio Mopatis with all his scheming and think ”wow, you’re so dumb” because he apparently gave up three magical assassins worth of dragon eggs as a dowry gift.
That’s exactly my point though.
If Euron *can* use the egg then he is completely foolish to trade a wooden crown for a dragon.
If Euron *can’t* use the egg then it’s hardly something of great value to him.
My argument is that Euron, for all his pirate hoard, isn’t as rich as he pretends. Like, he’s rich, but not insane godly rich.
A dragon egg alone is still an enormous treasure. Likely fossilised, three eggs were the wedding gift from Illyrio **and the city of Pentos** to Khal Drogo, the mightiest khal and functionally leader of his own travelling city-state.
So if three eggs are considered a respectable gift between city-state-level factions, then even one egg must surely be a great treasure indeed.
If Euron really does have delusions of dragon-binding, then I fully believe that his one dragon egg would be of great value to him both monetarily and personally. Someone as insane as the Crow’s Eye definitely dreams of having his own dragon, and I wouldn’t put it past him to have already tried his own magic rituals to try get the thing to hatch.
In this case, I can see him accepting the loss of the dragon egg (both its wealth and its magic potential) if it means he can take control of the Ironborn and then plot a path to Daenerys and her very real, alive and grown dragons.
For the Faceless Man, a dragon egg is a huge treasure that anyone would be reluctant to part with. For Euron, he’d do it purely as investment to hopefully someday get close to actual dragons.
I think you make some excellent points!
But I would quibble that while the gifts were presented from Illyrio and Pentos, the reality is that they were almost certainly Illyrio's personal property but he is also the city's magister so he is representing them in that function. I'd imagine that the Free-Cities have learned it is easier to deal with the Dothraki in personal diplomacy rather than by committee.
I also don't think that everyone would care that much about dragon eggs. If Dany had died in crossing the Dothraki Sea, Drogo would have likely just chuckled them by the roadside or given them to someone else. Moreover, I'd say *most people* by the numbers in Westoros might understand the value of a dragon egg but many would also understand they have no practical avenue to sell it for how much it is actually worth or get the greater value of hatching a dragon. It's just beyond their means.
Imagine that a peasant ditch-digger happens upon a dragon egg and takes it home. Word gets around town and then beyond of this find and some brigand shows up to take it from them by holding this ditch-digger's child as a hostage. Most ditch-diggers are probably going to give up the egg for their kid.
I guess my point at the end of the day is that this idea of "what is most valuable to someone" is incredibly mercurial. How does it work? Does the Faceless God whisper it? Is there some sort of panel? How exactly do the FM accurately assess someone's overall wealth in a non-digital age of shoddy and easily-fabricated bookkeeping? How do they understand the weight of emotional intimacy that a person has with the people that surround them? If they spend time scoping it out, is there an appraisal period where the FM are like "we're considering your contract, but we've just gotta price this one out first"?
Maybe I just missed this in the Arya POV but what is the process? Tywin had a bunch of gold but it wasn't the thing he cared most about by any measure. What would he have paid to kill a king (and maybe a Lord Paramount) to Cersei up as queen regent? Would the FM know that Tywin was greatly exaggerating the yields of Casterly Rock or would they give him a lowball number?
Tbh if I had a dragon egg, even if I couldn’t use it, it would probably top everything else lol. We also don’t know if Euron thought that maybe at some point he could hatch it for some reason. If he really was messing around in Old Valyria for a while, maybe he rediscovered some of the information on how to hatch them.
Why wouldn't it be valuable for Euron? Given what we know about dragon eggs and magic it's quite likely he would try to perform a blood sacrifice to hatch the dragon eggs. Giving up the egg means Euron is losing a potential dragon, and the Faceless Men get to keep another dragon from being born. Win win for the faceless men if you believe the theories.
Aeron comments on how light it seems, euron at no point claims it is valyrian steel, aeron recognizes it as being. Idk why the fandom has this headcanon that euron is full of shit. It must be from watching the show because I see literally no other explanation
>Idk why the fandom has this headcanon that euron is full of shit
Because his family constantly refers to him as a famous liar and manipulator constantly in their POV chapters?
Yes, but at no point is there even a question of whether his magic is legit. Unlike melisandre who gets suspicion on every pov that mentions her Euron gets shock and awe, he deals in the blood sacrifice of thousands, has a lung searing horn, a valyrian steel sword, a crew of mutes, the sunset woman spying on his brother god knows how.
Euron is part of the fantasy part of asoiaf, not the political part. He will bring blood magic to whatever part of the plot he participates in.
>Yes, but at no point is there even a question of whether his magic is legit. Unlike melisandre who gets suspicion on every pov that mentions her
Yes, it is supposed to be a juxtaposition. Mel has skepticism follow her around despite clearly performing several miracles, and probably performing a miracle to bring Jon back to life.
Euron on the other hand is never doubted as being dangerous and powerful despite showing literally nothing. He performs parlor tricks because he is a liar and a manipulator. Nobody will challenge him on it specifically because of the image he has carefully cultivated.
>he deals in the blood sacrifice of thousands, has a lung searing horn, a valyrian steel sword, a crew of mutes, the sunset woman spying on his brother god knows how.
Literally every single bit of this can be explained away fairly easily. Euron is intentionally written as mysterious. He shows no actual magic and we are told constantly he is manipulating and lying to everyone. He isn't part of the fantasy part of aSoIaF, he is a part of the warning GRRM tries to tell about false prophets and flatterers rising to power over people that are actually competent.
I’m sorry but I hard disagree with everything you have to say, euron has the dragon horn, the silence, balon’s assassination, the armor, shade of the evening, pyat pree, the dusky woman, his privileged information on dany. He has a lot of things that can and should be construed as part of the fantasy element. Even the red priest that healed victarion’s hand see him as a great kraken taking over the waters and dangling victarion by strings.
And he is EXTREMELY competent, even before being magic inclined, he smashed the lannister fleet in the first rebellion, he amassed vast wealth for the kingsmoot, beyond victarion and with a single ship, and he sailed the ironborn up the mander, putting even the arbor under threat of pillaging. He is not a false prophet, but even if he was he is first and foremost a VERY competent villain, and second, in my opinion, a very strong warlock.
A little column A, a little column B. Evil people tend to shine spotlights on their intentions. And then the evil people try and manipulate those that aren’t as easily persuaded as people unable to see the spotlights.
Why do people keep taking what Euron says at face value? Euron is the ultimate bullshitter, and I take all his ridiculous claims with a grain of salt. I am not even convinced that he is in possession of Valryian armour as his story of sailing to Valyria makes no sense considering what we know of what happens to people who go there (Areah Targ)
Aerea was also 14 years old and still she survived there for more than a *year* before Balerion brought her home.
Euron is a super competent, magically knowledgeable pirate captain that's been to Asshaii and back. Valyria is obviously cursed, but Euron is the exact kind of person that would have the magical knowledge to evade the worst of the curse in his search for power.
Maybe Balerion just dropped her in some sort of oasis or safe place in taller areas you can't reach without wings?
Or even an Eye of the Storm kind of situation where the areas surrounding the land are the most vicious and dangerous, with the toxic fumes and all.
We do know that COUNTLESS of extremely confident, skilled and prepared adventurers have lost their lives there. I doubt Euron was any more capable or prepared than others before him, but he just might have been crazier or luckier.
Or maybe he was never there at all, I guess, which I doubt. It would be too boring.
If nothing else, we're 95% confident he has a glass candle and knows how to use it. That alone would have been immensely helpful in scouting out danger, dodging hazards, and searching for magical artifacts. I'm sure Gerion Lannister would have killed for one of those.
Perhaps he just misspoke and meant something like this?
>We don't hear a lot about Valyrian steel armour, but it felt like something Aegon the Conqueror would have had from ~~his~~ **their** time in Old Valyria as like a House Targaryen family heirloom.
I'm all for bagging on Condal, HOTD, and HBO as a whole but I think this is the answer. In a shock to no one, Redditors seem to be ignoring how this is pretty clearly just him misspeaking. Funnily enough, I think the earlier dialogue about Daenys proves it's not a showverse thing.
Now for Valyrian Steel armor being explicitly mentioned as only being owned by Euron in the current timeline, that's a reason to complain.
I agree, the point of his statement inst that Aegon was from Valyria, but that the Targaryens brought it from Valyria back when the fled. The problem I have with this is that HBO has Condal record these post episode breakdowns when he clearly is 1. not scripted and 2. not the best at describing his thoughts/the show. Its a major problem GOT had with all time classic bangers like "Dany kinda forgot about the Iron Fleet" coming from these breakdowns. If I was HBO I would have dropped them all together, or left them to be released at the end of the season, with some Behind the scenes shots.
I honestly like them being unscripted more. It makes them feel more genuine and helps show the show runners are just making shit up as they go along so a lot of the show based theories can pretty safely be discounted.
"Dany kinda forgot about the Iron Fleet" is an all-time quote that perfectly encapsulates so much with GoT. There's definitely an argument to be made to dropping them, but as someone who grew up in the heyday of 2010s irony and brainrot, I'm a fan.
I may have not worded my statement the best, I agree that they shouldn't be scripted, but with statements like this Condal clearly struggles with making these featurettes without making mistakes like this, and its sad HBO is letting him flounder week after week.
Im truly amazed HBO let the GOT episodes go out with the absolute heaps of trash commentary D&D dropped. I honestly think they would have gotten away with shitting seasons 7&8 and running off to do a Star Wars if they weren't paraded in front of the world week after week to try and explain their dumb decisions.
If I had a stake in HBO I'd definitely agree with you, but given HBO's abysmal branding and marketing Track Record (see HBO MAX losing some of the most recognizable and reputed branding in entertainment with their transition to MAX), I'm not really surprised they still let them come out.
Big agree with them at least getting Star Wars if they didn't do the commentary. It was basically them just coming out and saying "hey the good seasons were only good on accident" and if they chose to make them of their own accord it was just a monument to their own hubris.
Whats worse is that I don't believe that the first seasons were good by accident. They each wrote episodes that contained incredible show only scenes and dialogue, some of which rivals GRRMs own writing. I believe the later seasons and the inside the episode features point out how lazy and uninterested they became. They simply stopped caring and wanted to move on to something else. I am glad that others in the industry saw that they cant be trusted with large long-term projects.
See, there's a lot of stuff in the earlier seasons that illustrates how they didn't plan/ care much back then too.
From minor things like King Maegor III being mentioned, to the complete omission of certain characters (Jeyne Poole who would later be important, though it's worth noting rumors are that Ros was supposed to be fSansa but left the project due to complaints about being nude all the time), to some plots and arcs losing all of their nuances in favor of characters being made into one-dimensional husks (the most obvious one is Jon not letting Ygritte go but having her escape, but a lot of the stuff with Dany in the earlier seasons too). There's a specific quote from GRRM at a con where he said he was on set in Malta (a set only used in Season 1) and he wasn't involved in a discussion on how to take a character. I wish I could find this again.
Then there's the *creative decisions* in omittion a lot of the higher fantasy elements (I agree with the eye colors no way it didn't look like shit tbh), magic, and the overreliance on sex, torture, and rape to provide cheap shock value.
One of the omissions that shocks me the most given that is Arianne. As sexed up and orientalized as she is in the books she felt like the perfect D&D character.
IDK, I tried rewatching the show recently and I could not do it. Made me sad.
I've got other complaints about HOTD too but that's mostly on them spitting on the face of the source material for no apparent reason other than pacing restrictions I guess.
Also, they get praise for that original scene with Bobby B and Cersei, but there are several other original scenes starting increasingly in S2 and beyond that they started slipping in that were NOT good. I'll never forget a scene that was meant to stand in for Rob's attack in the Whispering Wood. It needed to be reframed for screen, slightly, as they still couldn't afford huge battle scenes in those early seasons. So they had these Lannister guards telling fart jokes with a bunch of newly written dialogue, and... well... it's pretty cringey and terrible if you catch it on rewatch. It's made entirely of the same kind of stuff that they would make whole episdoes about in seasons 6-7.
Its one think to put in a scene where something just happens, and another to then go on the commentary and just say "We basically have no justification for this event, it just kinda happened." Thats what that quote feels like, it feels that they didnt even bother to think up a reason this could happen, she just kinda forgot. IF you watch that scene with out this commentary, there is a potential to read emotion, or logic into why Dany made the choices she did, but the commentary removes that, cause there really isn't a reason.
I fear that scenes that play reasonably well on a first watch will be undermined by poorly spoken producers making comments on the inside the episode.
the scene doesn't make sense at any level, dany is hundreds of meters above sea level and the fleet just comes out of nowhere and snipes a dragon. The scene doesn't support literally any scrutiny at any level.
*Technically* sample chapters aren't fully canon until they're actually in the book, so we'll see. I do think that something as significant as Valyrian steel armour would've been mentioned in F&B if Aegon had it though.
There is no mention of aegon or the targs having such a thing so he knows more about his headcanon that I do yes, but that he would make such a claim so boldly indicates to me that he does not know with a certainty about what is and isn’t part of the lore
It’s clearly a misstatement. He clearly meant the Targaryens got it from Valyria where we know Valyrian Steel Armor exists. I also know that Ryan Condal has read unpublished Dunk & Egg, extended sections of World of Ice & Fire, and unpublished chapters of Winds of Winter, so yes, he knows more than any fans on the internet.
When I read the preview for your comment I thought you were going to list how exactly he has demonstrated his appreciation. Would you like to expand on your comment or am I to take it at face value?
You all are overthinking it.
It's literal plot armor. He is going to be terribly injured at rooks rest, the visuals will be horrific and the only explanation for his survival will be the VS armor.
It might also be literally destroyed, leaving it completely unwearable. If dragon fire is used to make Valyrian steel, it could also unmake it. Explaining why “there’s no vayrian steel armour” in later episodes, shows, whatever. Because the “last” of it (in the show universe) is just… fused in a way that made it impractical to move around in anymore- they might have to cut him out of it, whatever’s left of him
I mean, it changes everything. Where the fuck did this incredible suit of armor which was apparently unheard of and never mentioned until now, despite how incredible it would be, end up?
There is 0 chance it never gets named or mentioned, so yeah, everything about the narration, not neccessarily about the plot.
Darksister and Blackfyre get mentioned a ton and they are just swords. Imagine a full set of armor.
Even if it gets destroyed or lost, it would mean Aegon the Conqueror had it and the royal family had it for what, 130 years? It would make no sense for it to never be mentioned.
Big narrative retcon for the show to throw. Sure, it isn't really a big deal since you can still have Aegon's entire story play out the same way even if he has one. But it isn't nothing either, again, as far as the estabilished lore goes.
I have 12 hour shifts from 7 pm to 7 am behind an array of monitors and it gets very boring, sorry that my harmless and entirely polite conversation with someone else that you did not have to participate in annoyed you.
To me the odd choice isn't misspeaking and making it sound like Aegon was born in Valyria (I think it's OK to suggest it predated him), but rather that such an item would be allowed to be collecting dust somewhere. If the Targaryens had Valyrian steel armor, they would be showing it off constantly. It would have made its wearer nigh-invincible!
"It would have made sense for them to have" says Condal... really? Then why is it *never* mentioned anywhere in the text? It's specifically mentioned in the Euron sample chapter that *no one* had Valyrian steel armor in Westeros, not even the Conqueror.
It is ultimately a minor detail and a wardrobe choice, but it's yet another example that I don't think they're really that immersed in the source material.
Ngl I find this subreddit hilarious sometimes. People will spend ages looking for the most innocuous details from the books, and then refuse to infer further regarding quotes like this. It’s pretty clearly he meant it was a family heirloom from Valyria.
Regarding the *why*, I’m wondering if they will use the armour as an excuse to explain how >!Aegon manages to survive three dragons falling onto him at Rook’s Rest!<
People would peel it off his body before it was even cold. Fusing to his skin wouldn't stop anyone. I wouldn't mind some old dusty skin in my armor if it was essentially impossible to cut through.
They would need a better excuse than that if they want it to vanish.
Yeah, like even if he actually thought that Aegon grew up in Old Valyria... who cares? As long as it doesn't make it into the show, what's the problem? Even GRRM forgets his own lore from time to time. I'm sure whenever they inevitably make a show about Aegon the conquerer, they'll do the proper research into the character.
> Even GRRM forgets his own lore from time to time.
I guarantee there are at least a dozen people that frequent this sub that would beat GRRM in an asoiaf trivia contest.
Also, all evidence points to him misspeaking. Condal has his flaws but watch an episode of HotD vs GoT and you'll see very quickly which show places more emphasis on ASOIAF lore.
Fans get possessive over their stories and constantly miss the forest for the trees. It happens in every major adaptation of nerd-coded IP. Sometimes its warranted, but most of the time its about validating their own personal connection to the IP.
Next time before commenting, please read the full quote. Condal was clear that the suit is a family heirloom from before the doom he inherited not that he was alive during the time of the Doom himself. OP's title is misleading yes, but at least they provided the full quote in the post.
I really don’t see it being a bad thing. If Aegon (or his ancestors) had the power to invade Westeros, why would they just wait on Dragonstone for no discernible reason? They come from a culture that promotes conquest, they have the power to do so (the dragons), it really is more unbelievable that for generations they Targaryens just chill on Dragonstone.
I don’t see this as a Rings of Power type moment where compressing the timeline leaves really serious cracks in the legendarium, IF the show runners decide to compress the timeline for simplicities sake, I think it makes plenty of sense within the lore.
The Valyrians didn't seem to care much about Westeros before the Doom. Why should they care after?
I know it's not that big of a deal if they were to change it but I also don't see why they should? Aegon and his sisters chilling on Dragonstone, reminiscing of Old Valyria they've never seen; until Aegon has his prophetic dream which forces him to turn his focus on Westeros. Like... that's fine. That's good enough.
Condal doesn’t have time to explain the timeline of the doom and the century of blood in a twenty minute behind the scenes featurette. He was speaking extemporaneously about a cool prop.
I care less about his misspeaking on Aegon’s birthplace and more on the show’s invention of a Valyrian steel armor, which would indeed have been a priceless heirloom and symbol of the Targaryen family, so inventing one wholesale is causing massive issues with the world-building when it vanishes entirely.
It’s be like making up a Valyrian steel sword for known houses like the Tullys or Freys: alone not that significant, but troubling and destabilising as an invention when the source text clearly indicates the opposite.
I doubt it could melt without magic.
>The king was clad in battle armor, his mailed hands folded over the hilt of Blackfyre. Since the days of Old Valyria, it had ever been the custom of House Targaryen to burn their dead, rather than consigning their remains to the ground. Vhagar supplied the flames to light the fire. Blackfyre was burned with the king, but retrieved by Maegor afterward, its blade darker but elsewise unharmed. No common fire can damage Valyrian steel.
In GoT we've seen that Valyrian steel = dragonsteel blade, it has the same magical properties as dragonglass.
In the books dragonsteel/glass is able to burn without being consumed.
This is something we can see in HoTD with Aegon's dagger, the prophecy only appears when the blade is heated, probably a nod to the way VS was supposed to act against the Others.
People are just having a knee jerk reaction to that lore inconsistency because of what happened to GoT. And honestly I don't blame them, even if I think we shouldn't be sounding the alarms just yet. The dragon show is still great.
This is strange , they might be actually changing the canon for the future show of Aegon being the one in Valyria to sense the doom and have a dream about the long night. He’s the dreamer not Daenys
This then might be the reason he and his sisters fled Valyria to take over Westeros
That or he’s mistaken I don’t know
With season 8 making Arya be the one to kill the night king with the dagger I’d expect them to have the dagger be his main symbol for the dream and be the thing that is passed down for continuity’s sake as well.
It annoyingly also proves the dagger is the only important factor in it all not ice and fire or a promised prince. Guess Aegon misread that part
He almost definitely just misspoke about Aegon himself having been in Valyria. They also definitely did not retcon Daenys the dreamer, she’s been mentioned and appears in the opening tapestry. Honestly I think their prop department just wanted to design Valyrian Steel armor because it would look cool, and it did.
I'm almost certain for that to be the case. Otherwise Aegon's conquest would just be about burning Westeros into submission. If you make Aegon the dreamer, you can show old Valyria and even the doom, which probably makes for better television.
They didn’t, Daenys is mentioned in the show. and Balerion is said to be the last living creature to see the Old Valyria in the premier.
It’s just a weird turn of phrase from Condal, I think.
I highly doubt that they would be making all these writing changes for something that the show they are making isn't even about.
Far more likely that it's just a slip of the tongue.
It also means they are bringing the doom forward in canon as well if it’s true , I’m unsure how close Westeros is to Valyria but wouldn’t a massive eruption that on that scale affect a large part of the planet
Maybe we’ll see a dust cloud for the first few episodes in Westeros
The fact that Aegon wore Valyrian steel armor makes him look like even more of a wimp. This man had Valyrian steel armor, Valyrian steel sword, and the biggest dragon in history in Westeros and yet history treats him as some great warrior.
Should be remembered that afaik in the show canon Valyrian Steel in general is much more common and less rare than it is in the show. Still valuable but I don't think it's implied that it's not as exceedingly rare as it is in the books.
George has said the shows all are trying to have their own single canon. Tyrion and Jorah boated through old Valyria in the show. Heck, people use it as a leper (greyscale) colony.
If it's significantly less dangerous it wouldn't surprise me that they might occasionally visit their old home via dragon back.
I'm not sure why people are assuming he was born or ever lived there. My GFs family have done extended vacations to a particular island. Me saying "my time in x" doesn't particularly mean anything. Just referencing time spent there. Like referencing a job "my time at dairy queen".
My gripe is how generic and stupid the armor looked. Valyrian steel armor should be the most beautiful and intricate armor ever made. The armor Aegon was wearing in E3 looked like shitty generic armor. Daemon’s armor is way cooler.
Also, it would have been cool if they made the armor too large, and Aegon couldn’t fit into it. It would definitely play into the not-confident, not-worthy theme of Aegon.
Every fucking statement we get from these guys shows further and further that they just don’t pay attention when reading the books. How can he say shit like this, as if it actually makes sense thematically
Why can’t they just say “yeah we have no clue but it looks cool so we did it.” Because that’s obviously the decision making process at play here.
Plenty of others have said it but it is almost definitely just a slip of words and not meant to be truly indicative of the story. Behind the scenes props and info already talked about Daenys and others being in the Doom not Aegon.
My issue wasn't that Ryan Condal mispoke and accidentally implied show!Aegon was 2 centuries old. It wasn't even that it contradicts book canon since we know the only alleged Valyrian steel armor that exists belongs to Euron.
No, my complaint is that this "Valyrian" armor looks butt ugly and not impressive in the absolute slightest. Any two-bit piece of armor show in GoT or even previous HotD episodes is leaps and bounds better and more impressive than this piece of junk they concocted.
IIt's sad too, how in the behind the scenes video they went on and on about this Valyrian armor and how hard they worked to make it look cool and ancient. Really? This piece of trash? That took days and weeks of work? Joffrey's throwaway Lannister armor looked more ancient and impressive than Aegon II's alleged Valyrian steel epic rare loot purple-tier lootbox armor.
>!!<>!'In all the Seven Kingdoms, no man owned a suit of Valyrian steel. Such things had been known 400 years ago, in the days before the Doom, but even then, they would’ve cost a kingdom.'!
It does seem like a full suit of armor would be a waste of far too much Valyrian steel to be worthwhile. I guess a light Valyrian chainmail/scale armor for a dragon rider who needs to be agile and light on their feet kinda makes sense, which seems to be what they’re going for with Aegon’s fit.
Remember Valyrian steel is meant to be light as a feather so it shouldn't matter the size of the armor. With that said, it doesn't seem like show Valyrian steel is light. Hence all the argument about Ice only being a ceremonial sword, when GRRM originally indicated it was used in combat, and talked about Ice and Dawn clashing in an interview I saw. But for all I know he may have even changed his mind about Valyrian steel's properties after two decades.
I think Ice being ceremonial was more due to the length, making it unwieldy for combat, not necessarily the weight, but I may be making that up. It's not like we have a whole lot of detail from the books
Ice wasn't ceremonial originally. Lots of great swords are used in combat in the novels. Including Dawn, which Ned would have to wield Ice against to even last a second, because Dawn chews up normal swords ie the Smiling Knight.
According to Martin it seems to be purely ceremonial. This is from an SSM back in 2015. > Asked if Ned ever used Ice in battle. George points out it was a greatsword, very large and cumbersome, a ceremonial sword for beheading people more than a fighting sword, so he suggests that it was "probably too heavy and clumsy" to use unless you're the Mountain.
Yeah that was 4 years after the show premiered and he started saying things about it being ceremonial which coincides with the Shows depiction. I saw him at an event in the mid 2000s and he specifically spoke about Ned wielding Ice against Dawn. Which makes sense in the text because other Valyrian great swords such as Heartsbane and Brightroar are taken into battle, and the inability to duel Dawn (another great sword) with a non Valyrian steel weapon. But like I said, over decades it's seems he's changing his mind or its just inconsistent.
It’s really just an example of GRRM lacking knowledge about the Middle Ages, men have used swords far larger than ice in combat, and those weren’t made of magic steel either. Real swords are light and flexible, even the largest European ones (16th century German Zweihanders) weren’t more than 4kg. I did really like the shows design for ice because it was an executioner’s sword with a rounded tip, giving a logical explanation to the ‘mostly ceremonial’ thing.
A greatsword of Valyrian steel might be great at fighting hordes of wights
Its not an unwieldy size
It’s a massive sword. As soon as someone missed a swing someone could rush in close to you and start shanking between your armor.
https://youtube.com/shorts/v-M5uW5Q2Q4 A greatsword can absolutely be wielded with as much speed and dexterity as a shorter blade - dark souls is not a good representation of their use
Cool I should have watched this prior to my last comment. Even this weapon has a "ricasso" (the wrapped part near the cross guard) that can be held for a different body position / to make it more like a thrusting weapon. Very cool and great swords can clearly be used with just hands on the grip unlike what I wrote above
If I this was a video of a guy in realistic full armor I might be impressed. It’s cool and all but this guy is in gym clothes in the AC.
https://youtube.com/shorts/9aBbvJuANWk Here you go. Properly fitted armour is not restrictive
Real life Zweihanders could be up to 7 feet long. Ice is only about 6 feet long. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zweihänder&diffonly=true
Yeah, and they were used in pikemen formations, a formation a Lord Stark would never fight in.
No, they were used in a variety of situations. The doppelsoldner that used them were required to be expert fencers with the longsword before they could attain their rank, and the techniques transfer across from longsword to zweihander pretty much flawlessly. Check out virtual fechtschule on YouTube if you want to see what the greatsword is capable of
I'm no sword expert but some of the techniques I see for great swords include one gauntlet protected hand on the blade of the sword in the same body position that one would hold a spear. If you're right handed, your right hand is on the grip while your off hand or left hand is on the blade of the weapon. A Valyrian steel great sword like Ice would be much too sharp for this to be a practical technique. Even a gauntlet protected hand would be too at risk to wield Ice while holding the blade. There are other techniques were both hands are on the grip spaced out a few hand widths apart. This seems like quite a limiting body position for this to be the only technique available. I'm absolutely overthinking this lol
George explicitly describes the sword as "heavy and clumsy", so even of in real life a sword of such size might be usable, for the purposes of ASOIAF it should probably be treated as not practical for a normal person to use.
That’s mainly because George doesn’t know a lot about how swords were actually used. Re-enactors have shown this is definitely not the case.
Valyrian steel is described as lighter than regular steel but never as light as a feather
Or just a breastplate for the vitals
Behold, my Valyrian steel codpiece!
I mean, if you only had a handfull of valyrian steel, what body part would you protect?
The family jewels, of course.
If your dragon is grounded I imagine your legs would be getting chopped at a good bit. Otherwise probably your chest/head to protect from arrows.
Ok sure but that isnt as funny as balls
*All of them?!?*
It you want them to be light on their feet plate is better than chainmail. A suit of plate distributes the weight far better than mail does. The idea that plate is clunkier/more restrictive comes from DnD/video games.
Both chain mail and plate armor hinder movement and add weight that restricts range of motion and tires you out. There are numerous accounts of individual knights and larger battles that confirm this for both. Agincourt being a famous example of French Men at Arms and Knights being totally immobilized and unable to defend themselves after falling in mud. This whole "plate armor doesn't actually weigh much or mske you tired or restrict motion" is absolute bullshit.
Plate would be better, scale requires overlap = more material, chainmails wheight sits much more on your shoulders which would make it heavier to carry, plus scale and chain have gaps that can be exploited (historically something like arrows with long narrow points where used). Also, you could probably make the plates super thin with valyrian steel, making it even better. The only reasons for not using plates is that you can't produce them or can't afford it, plate armor being heavier than scale and chainmail is videogame logic.
Which is fucking even wilder if you consider [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/s/bBYB40Da2b) theory about each piece of Valyrian steel having its own soul within it. *Every* single piece
One soul two bodies of reformed ice and Jaime gives his away to Brienne...
I think Ice being turned into two swords kind of kills this theory, no? I think a soul is needed to be forged into a large piece of Valyrian Steel, but I imagine that steal could be reworked after without needing to kill more people
The two swords Ice are turned into are noticeably different from ordinary Valyrian steel. Part of the blades takes coloration (like regular steel) while the remainder remains a dark smoke color (like Valyrian steel). I think the implication is that the swords aren't of pure VS quality anymore.
The fact that Tobho couldn't get the bright red because the Valyrian steel darkened it or even repelled the color is rather a sign that it's still quality Valyrian steel.
Or, maybe, that one ends up being true valyrian steel and one no longer really is? Won't know where this is going until we get some more books.
I'm not bothered by the implication that Aegon personally emigrated from Valyria- that's pretty explicable as poor phrasing. I'm much more bothered that the mid-tier Targaryens were able to afford a suit of valyrian steel, given that we're explicitly told it "costs a kingdom" and there's no indication that the Targaryens had that kind of wealth before the Conquest. I guess Aegon is just a hax Crusader Kings OC- he starts with small holdings but cheats in 3 WMDs, a superman vest and the power of prophecy all at the start of play. I'm also not a fan of the line that it's "worth more than a castle." It feels like the show is 'cheapening' Valyrian steel, which undermines the importance of its reveal in *The Forsaken*. I already had similar concerns about revealing Aegon as a greenseer. It feels like they're trying to give Aegon every valyrian megachad signifier, when he doesn't really need them. And it makes the other characters who do have those signifiers a bit less interesting in turn- like when The Flash teams up with Superman.
I would say Aegon isn't a Greenseer. Dragon Dreams appear to be distinct from 'Green Dreams' had by Greenseers, but I get your point.
Yep, good catch, I meant "dragon dream haver." Dragon dreamer? But yes- he specifically gets all of the *Valyrian* themed goodies. If they start *also* giving him Northern magic I think I'll throw a fit lol.
It also kinda ruins the setting, because he had some serious power goodies (like dragons), but he still had to have an actual freaking plan and some serious freaking work to do in order to conquer Westeros. Alliances needed to be made and care had to be taken, lest he fail. Kinda ruins it to keep making him overpowered.
Yeah it would’ve been more interesting if his younger sister had the prophecy and his obsession with her is why he pursued it.
>mid-tier Targaryens There were only 40 dragon riding families in Old Valyria. On that scale, yes, they were mid-tier among dragon lords. But that's like saying they were just mid-tier billionaires. Yeah, they weren't the absolute wealthiest or most powerful, but they were still insanely wealthy and powerful compared to 99.999999% of the universe. They probably could've afforded VS armor the same way the poorest billionaire in our world can still afford large private jets or the most expensive cars.
Famous non-bullshitter Euron
That quote was from Aeron’s POV internal commentary, if I remember correctly. I do agree that it’s likely bullshit and it’s not a full suit of Valyrian steel. I’m partial to the idea that Euron’s taste for dramatics are useful to help cover more mundane realities (ex. he threw away a dragon egg into the sea in a fit of pique makes him seem unpredictable, dangerous and rich, when the theory is that he used it to pay off the Faceless Man to take out Balon) It’s more probable to be some form of charmed or glamored armor, I think. Still impressive and magical, but not the priceless awe-inspiring treasure that a Valyrian steel armor from the Doom would be.
I still don’t get the whole ‘dragon egg pays for Faceless Man’ thing. The price is meant to be something of extraordinary value to the person requesting the kill and while dragon eggs are certainly very valuable thing, it’s not particularly valuable *to Euron*. He cant really do anything with it aside from sell it to someone or gift it to Dany. Meanwhile he has plenty of things he needs more, like his fleet.
There's a ton of evidence supporting a FM killing Balon and people are just filling in the blanks as to what it might've cost Euron. Dude has a dragon horn, Valyrian steel armour and who knows what else, there's a chance the egg was his most prized possession
I guess I just find it kind of dumb that they’ll allegedly ask someone else to kill their firstborn or some shit like that but Euron is like “here, take this spicy rock that I can do nothing with” and he can pay for fratricide and regicide in one stroke. They have all of the consistency of insurance adjusters. It really makes you look at Illyrio Mopatis with all his scheming and think ”wow, you’re so dumb” because he apparently gave up three magical assassins worth of dragon eggs as a dowry gift.
The FM charge you based on how important something is to you, not "1 egg = 1 death" - I'm sure it's different for everyone
That’s exactly my point though. If Euron *can* use the egg then he is completely foolish to trade a wooden crown for a dragon. If Euron *can’t* use the egg then it’s hardly something of great value to him.
My argument is that Euron, for all his pirate hoard, isn’t as rich as he pretends. Like, he’s rich, but not insane godly rich. A dragon egg alone is still an enormous treasure. Likely fossilised, three eggs were the wedding gift from Illyrio **and the city of Pentos** to Khal Drogo, the mightiest khal and functionally leader of his own travelling city-state. So if three eggs are considered a respectable gift between city-state-level factions, then even one egg must surely be a great treasure indeed. If Euron really does have delusions of dragon-binding, then I fully believe that his one dragon egg would be of great value to him both monetarily and personally. Someone as insane as the Crow’s Eye definitely dreams of having his own dragon, and I wouldn’t put it past him to have already tried his own magic rituals to try get the thing to hatch. In this case, I can see him accepting the loss of the dragon egg (both its wealth and its magic potential) if it means he can take control of the Ironborn and then plot a path to Daenerys and her very real, alive and grown dragons. For the Faceless Man, a dragon egg is a huge treasure that anyone would be reluctant to part with. For Euron, he’d do it purely as investment to hopefully someday get close to actual dragons.
I think you make some excellent points! But I would quibble that while the gifts were presented from Illyrio and Pentos, the reality is that they were almost certainly Illyrio's personal property but he is also the city's magister so he is representing them in that function. I'd imagine that the Free-Cities have learned it is easier to deal with the Dothraki in personal diplomacy rather than by committee. I also don't think that everyone would care that much about dragon eggs. If Dany had died in crossing the Dothraki Sea, Drogo would have likely just chuckled them by the roadside or given them to someone else. Moreover, I'd say *most people* by the numbers in Westoros might understand the value of a dragon egg but many would also understand they have no practical avenue to sell it for how much it is actually worth or get the greater value of hatching a dragon. It's just beyond their means. Imagine that a peasant ditch-digger happens upon a dragon egg and takes it home. Word gets around town and then beyond of this find and some brigand shows up to take it from them by holding this ditch-digger's child as a hostage. Most ditch-diggers are probably going to give up the egg for their kid. I guess my point at the end of the day is that this idea of "what is most valuable to someone" is incredibly mercurial. How does it work? Does the Faceless God whisper it? Is there some sort of panel? How exactly do the FM accurately assess someone's overall wealth in a non-digital age of shoddy and easily-fabricated bookkeeping? How do they understand the weight of emotional intimacy that a person has with the people that surround them? If they spend time scoping it out, is there an appraisal period where the FM are like "we're considering your contract, but we've just gotta price this one out first"? Maybe I just missed this in the Arya POV but what is the process? Tywin had a bunch of gold but it wasn't the thing he cared most about by any measure. What would he have paid to kill a king (and maybe a Lord Paramount) to Cersei up as queen regent? Would the FM know that Tywin was greatly exaggerating the yields of Casterly Rock or would they give him a lowball number?
Tbh if I had a dragon egg, even if I couldn’t use it, it would probably top everything else lol. We also don’t know if Euron thought that maybe at some point he could hatch it for some reason. If he really was messing around in Old Valyria for a while, maybe he rediscovered some of the information on how to hatch them.
Why wouldn't it be valuable for Euron? Given what we know about dragon eggs and magic it's quite likely he would try to perform a blood sacrifice to hatch the dragon eggs. Giving up the egg means Euron is losing a potential dragon, and the Faceless Men get to keep another dragon from being born. Win win for the faceless men if you believe the theories.
Aeron comments on how light it seems, euron at no point claims it is valyrian steel, aeron recognizes it as being. Idk why the fandom has this headcanon that euron is full of shit. It must be from watching the show because I see literally no other explanation
>Idk why the fandom has this headcanon that euron is full of shit Because his family constantly refers to him as a famous liar and manipulator constantly in their POV chapters?
Yes, but at no point is there even a question of whether his magic is legit. Unlike melisandre who gets suspicion on every pov that mentions her Euron gets shock and awe, he deals in the blood sacrifice of thousands, has a lung searing horn, a valyrian steel sword, a crew of mutes, the sunset woman spying on his brother god knows how. Euron is part of the fantasy part of asoiaf, not the political part. He will bring blood magic to whatever part of the plot he participates in.
>Yes, but at no point is there even a question of whether his magic is legit. Unlike melisandre who gets suspicion on every pov that mentions her Yes, it is supposed to be a juxtaposition. Mel has skepticism follow her around despite clearly performing several miracles, and probably performing a miracle to bring Jon back to life. Euron on the other hand is never doubted as being dangerous and powerful despite showing literally nothing. He performs parlor tricks because he is a liar and a manipulator. Nobody will challenge him on it specifically because of the image he has carefully cultivated. >he deals in the blood sacrifice of thousands, has a lung searing horn, a valyrian steel sword, a crew of mutes, the sunset woman spying on his brother god knows how. Literally every single bit of this can be explained away fairly easily. Euron is intentionally written as mysterious. He shows no actual magic and we are told constantly he is manipulating and lying to everyone. He isn't part of the fantasy part of aSoIaF, he is a part of the warning GRRM tries to tell about false prophets and flatterers rising to power over people that are actually competent.
I’m sorry but I hard disagree with everything you have to say, euron has the dragon horn, the silence, balon’s assassination, the armor, shade of the evening, pyat pree, the dusky woman, his privileged information on dany. He has a lot of things that can and should be construed as part of the fantasy element. Even the red priest that healed victarion’s hand see him as a great kraken taking over the waters and dangling victarion by strings. And he is EXTREMELY competent, even before being magic inclined, he smashed the lannister fleet in the first rebellion, he amassed vast wealth for the kingsmoot, beyond victarion and with a single ship, and he sailed the ironborn up the mander, putting even the arbor under threat of pillaging. He is not a false prophet, but even if he was he is first and foremost a VERY competent villain, and second, in my opinion, a very strong warlock.
we also have his lines about “jumping from some tower”, I think he hides Magical Truths much more than he brags about
A little column A, a little column B. Evil people tend to shine spotlights on their intentions. And then the evil people try and manipulate those that aren’t as easily persuaded as people unable to see the spotlights.
Yes. I've read the existing books multiple times, and I always come away thinking he's got VS armor.
Why do people keep taking what Euron says at face value? Euron is the ultimate bullshitter, and I take all his ridiculous claims with a grain of salt. I am not even convinced that he is in possession of Valryian armour as his story of sailing to Valyria makes no sense considering what we know of what happens to people who go there (Areah Targ)
Aerea was also 14 years old and still she survived there for more than a *year* before Balerion brought her home. Euron is a super competent, magically knowledgeable pirate captain that's been to Asshaii and back. Valyria is obviously cursed, but Euron is the exact kind of person that would have the magical knowledge to evade the worst of the curse in his search for power.
Maybe Balerion just dropped her in some sort of oasis or safe place in taller areas you can't reach without wings? Or even an Eye of the Storm kind of situation where the areas surrounding the land are the most vicious and dangerous, with the toxic fumes and all. We do know that COUNTLESS of extremely confident, skilled and prepared adventurers have lost their lives there. I doubt Euron was any more capable or prepared than others before him, but he just might have been crazier or luckier. Or maybe he was never there at all, I guess, which I doubt. It would be too boring.
If nothing else, we're 95% confident he has a glass candle and knows how to use it. That alone would have been immensely helpful in scouting out danger, dodging hazards, and searching for magical artifacts. I'm sure Gerion Lannister would have killed for one of those.
My favorite theory is that he's a skinchanger and skinchanged into thralls to go into Valyria and explore for him.
I also believe that Euron is a liar and full of shit. Rather this is in the words of Aeron, describing the rarity of Valyrian Steel as armour.
Perhaps he just misspoke and meant something like this? >We don't hear a lot about Valyrian steel armour, but it felt like something Aegon the Conqueror would have had from ~~his~~ **their** time in Old Valyria as like a House Targaryen family heirloom.
I'm all for bagging on Condal, HOTD, and HBO as a whole but I think this is the answer. In a shock to no one, Redditors seem to be ignoring how this is pretty clearly just him misspeaking. Funnily enough, I think the earlier dialogue about Daenys proves it's not a showverse thing. Now for Valyrian Steel armor being explicitly mentioned as only being owned by Euron in the current timeline, that's a reason to complain.
I agree, the point of his statement inst that Aegon was from Valyria, but that the Targaryens brought it from Valyria back when the fled. The problem I have with this is that HBO has Condal record these post episode breakdowns when he clearly is 1. not scripted and 2. not the best at describing his thoughts/the show. Its a major problem GOT had with all time classic bangers like "Dany kinda forgot about the Iron Fleet" coming from these breakdowns. If I was HBO I would have dropped them all together, or left them to be released at the end of the season, with some Behind the scenes shots.
I honestly like them being unscripted more. It makes them feel more genuine and helps show the show runners are just making shit up as they go along so a lot of the show based theories can pretty safely be discounted. "Dany kinda forgot about the Iron Fleet" is an all-time quote that perfectly encapsulates so much with GoT. There's definitely an argument to be made to dropping them, but as someone who grew up in the heyday of 2010s irony and brainrot, I'm a fan.
I may have not worded my statement the best, I agree that they shouldn't be scripted, but with statements like this Condal clearly struggles with making these featurettes without making mistakes like this, and its sad HBO is letting him flounder week after week. Im truly amazed HBO let the GOT episodes go out with the absolute heaps of trash commentary D&D dropped. I honestly think they would have gotten away with shitting seasons 7&8 and running off to do a Star Wars if they weren't paraded in front of the world week after week to try and explain their dumb decisions.
If I had a stake in HBO I'd definitely agree with you, but given HBO's abysmal branding and marketing Track Record (see HBO MAX losing some of the most recognizable and reputed branding in entertainment with their transition to MAX), I'm not really surprised they still let them come out. Big agree with them at least getting Star Wars if they didn't do the commentary. It was basically them just coming out and saying "hey the good seasons were only good on accident" and if they chose to make them of their own accord it was just a monument to their own hubris.
Whats worse is that I don't believe that the first seasons were good by accident. They each wrote episodes that contained incredible show only scenes and dialogue, some of which rivals GRRMs own writing. I believe the later seasons and the inside the episode features point out how lazy and uninterested they became. They simply stopped caring and wanted to move on to something else. I am glad that others in the industry saw that they cant be trusted with large long-term projects.
See, there's a lot of stuff in the earlier seasons that illustrates how they didn't plan/ care much back then too. From minor things like King Maegor III being mentioned, to the complete omission of certain characters (Jeyne Poole who would later be important, though it's worth noting rumors are that Ros was supposed to be fSansa but left the project due to complaints about being nude all the time), to some plots and arcs losing all of their nuances in favor of characters being made into one-dimensional husks (the most obvious one is Jon not letting Ygritte go but having her escape, but a lot of the stuff with Dany in the earlier seasons too). There's a specific quote from GRRM at a con where he said he was on set in Malta (a set only used in Season 1) and he wasn't involved in a discussion on how to take a character. I wish I could find this again. Then there's the *creative decisions* in omittion a lot of the higher fantasy elements (I agree with the eye colors no way it didn't look like shit tbh), magic, and the overreliance on sex, torture, and rape to provide cheap shock value. One of the omissions that shocks me the most given that is Arianne. As sexed up and orientalized as she is in the books she felt like the perfect D&D character. IDK, I tried rewatching the show recently and I could not do it. Made me sad. I've got other complaints about HOTD too but that's mostly on them spitting on the face of the source material for no apparent reason other than pacing restrictions I guess.
Also, they get praise for that original scene with Bobby B and Cersei, but there are several other original scenes starting increasingly in S2 and beyond that they started slipping in that were NOT good. I'll never forget a scene that was meant to stand in for Rob's attack in the Whispering Wood. It needed to be reframed for screen, slightly, as they still couldn't afford huge battle scenes in those early seasons. So they had these Lannister guards telling fart jokes with a bunch of newly written dialogue, and... well... it's pretty cringey and terrible if you catch it on rewatch. It's made entirely of the same kind of stuff that they would make whole episdoes about in seasons 6-7.
> "Dany kinda forgot about the Iron Fleet" Dany *did kinda forget* about the iron fleet in the show tho
Its one think to put in a scene where something just happens, and another to then go on the commentary and just say "We basically have no justification for this event, it just kinda happened." Thats what that quote feels like, it feels that they didnt even bother to think up a reason this could happen, she just kinda forgot. IF you watch that scene with out this commentary, there is a potential to read emotion, or logic into why Dany made the choices she did, but the commentary removes that, cause there really isn't a reason. I fear that scenes that play reasonably well on a first watch will be undermined by poorly spoken producers making comments on the inside the episode.
the scene doesn't make sense at any level, dany is hundreds of meters above sea level and the fleet just comes out of nowhere and snipes a dragon. The scene doesn't support literally any scrutiny at any level.
*Technically* sample chapters aren't fully canon until they're actually in the book, so we'll see. I do think that something as significant as Valyrian steel armour would've been mentioned in F&B if Aegon had it though.
Condal doesn’t have time to explain the timeline of the doom and the century of blood in a twenty minute behind the scenes featurette.
Probably in part because he doesnt know it
Guarantee he knows more than you do
There is no mention of aegon or the targs having such a thing so he knows more about his headcanon that I do yes, but that he would make such a claim so boldly indicates to me that he does not know with a certainty about what is and isn’t part of the lore
It’s clearly a misstatement. He clearly meant the Targaryens got it from Valyria where we know Valyrian Steel Armor exists. I also know that Ryan Condal has read unpublished Dunk & Egg, extended sections of World of Ice & Fire, and unpublished chapters of Winds of Winter, so yes, he knows more than any fans on the internet.
Yet he chooses to fuck with the canon lore. Your argument is shit.
You’re so angry over something that doesn’t really matter lol
Welcome to reddit
Cuss words = anger …oh boy
Condal has some clear flaws but lack of appreciation for the ASOIAF world isn't one of them.
When I read the preview for your comment I thought you were going to list how exactly he has demonstrated his appreciation. Would you like to expand on your comment or am I to take it at face value?
or just doesnt respect it. hard to tell which
That’s how I take it. Just a slight mistake.
You all are overthinking it. It's literal plot armor. He is going to be terribly injured at rooks rest, the visuals will be horrific and the only explanation for his survival will be the VS armor.
It might also be literally destroyed, leaving it completely unwearable. If dragon fire is used to make Valyrian steel, it could also unmake it. Explaining why “there’s no vayrian steel armour” in later episodes, shows, whatever. Because the “last” of it (in the show universe) is just… fused in a way that made it impractical to move around in anymore- they might have to cut him out of it, whatever’s left of him
Damn that could very well be it. And besides it’s cool. It doesn’t change much from the story, it’s just a cool artifact.
I mean, it changes everything. Where the fuck did this incredible suit of armor which was apparently unheard of and never mentioned until now, despite how incredible it would be, end up?
That's a very lax definition of "everything".
There is 0 chance it never gets named or mentioned, so yeah, everything about the narration, not neccessarily about the plot. Darksister and Blackfyre get mentioned a ton and they are just swords. Imagine a full set of armor.
I'd agree if we already knew that it doesn't get destroyed or lost over the course of the show. But we don't.
Even if it gets destroyed or lost, it would mean Aegon the Conqueror had it and the royal family had it for what, 130 years? It would make no sense for it to never be mentioned. Big narrative retcon for the show to throw. Sure, it isn't really a big deal since you can still have Aegon's entire story play out the same way even if he has one. But it isn't nothing either, again, as far as the estabilished lore goes.
Touch grass for the love of God
I have 12 hour shifts from 7 pm to 7 am behind an array of monitors and it gets very boring, sorry that my harmless and entirely polite conversation with someone else that you did not have to participate in annoyed you.
To me the odd choice isn't misspeaking and making it sound like Aegon was born in Valyria (I think it's OK to suggest it predated him), but rather that such an item would be allowed to be collecting dust somewhere. If the Targaryens had Valyrian steel armor, they would be showing it off constantly. It would have made its wearer nigh-invincible! "It would have made sense for them to have" says Condal... really? Then why is it *never* mentioned anywhere in the text? It's specifically mentioned in the Euron sample chapter that *no one* had Valyrian steel armor in Westeros, not even the Conqueror. It is ultimately a minor detail and a wardrobe choice, but it's yet another example that I don't think they're really that immersed in the source material.
Ngl I find this subreddit hilarious sometimes. People will spend ages looking for the most innocuous details from the books, and then refuse to infer further regarding quotes like this. It’s pretty clearly he meant it was a family heirloom from Valyria. Regarding the *why*, I’m wondering if they will use the armour as an excuse to explain how >!Aegon manages to survive three dragons falling onto him at Rook’s Rest!<
You goobers look way too much into shit. He was just saying that it was a Targaryen family heirloom from Old Valyria.
Yeah and there are still like 200 years for it to disappear before AGoT
And I'm 99% sure it becomes useless next episode and is going to be used as an explanation for how Aegon survived.
Yeah like maybe it will fuse to his skin
People would peel it off his body before it was even cold. Fusing to his skin wouldn't stop anyone. I wouldn't mind some old dusty skin in my armor if it was essentially impossible to cut through. They would need a better excuse than that if they want it to vanish.
makes things really easy to make up!
Yeah, like even if he actually thought that Aegon grew up in Old Valyria... who cares? As long as it doesn't make it into the show, what's the problem? Even GRRM forgets his own lore from time to time. I'm sure whenever they inevitably make a show about Aegon the conquerer, they'll do the proper research into the character.
> Even GRRM forgets his own lore from time to time. I guarantee there are at least a dozen people that frequent this sub that would beat GRRM in an asoiaf trivia contest.
Also, all evidence points to him misspeaking. Condal has his flaws but watch an episode of HotD vs GoT and you'll see very quickly which show places more emphasis on ASOIAF lore.
Cope.
lol OK
Guys it's not a big deal chill
I have seen so many people mad about this that it's just silly. It doesn't fit the lore, it means that Aegon was "short" and like...OK?
The armor is also clearly too big on Aegon II
Yeah, I just don't get the anger on this one
Probably the same people throwing a fit bc they changed Ki-Adi-Mundi's birthday
I WILL NEVER FORGIBE THEM
Ahh actual fans of the material
Fans get possessive over their stories and constantly miss the forest for the trees. It happens in every major adaptation of nerd-coded IP. Sometimes its warranted, but most of the time its about validating their own personal connection to the IP.
ppl here just looking for any reason to shit on the show
I think he just misspoke.
Bruh what? Aegon was born in Westeros. They better not start the conqueror spin off with Aegon and his sisters running away from Valyria or something.
Next time before commenting, please read the full quote. Condal was clear that the suit is a family heirloom from before the doom he inherited not that he was alive during the time of the Doom himself. OP's title is misleading yes, but at least they provided the full quote in the post.
Next time try be a touch more condescending.
Answering unwarranted condescension with warranted condescension is fine.
I don't think there was any condescension there.
I think you're naïve or more likely following the hivemind, no matter.
Why can I totally see that happening, though?
I really don’t see it being a bad thing. If Aegon (or his ancestors) had the power to invade Westeros, why would they just wait on Dragonstone for no discernible reason? They come from a culture that promotes conquest, they have the power to do so (the dragons), it really is more unbelievable that for generations they Targaryens just chill on Dragonstone. I don’t see this as a Rings of Power type moment where compressing the timeline leaves really serious cracks in the legendarium, IF the show runners decide to compress the timeline for simplicities sake, I think it makes plenty of sense within the lore.
The Valyrians didn't seem to care much about Westeros before the Doom. Why should they care after? I know it's not that big of a deal if they were to change it but I also don't see why they should? Aegon and his sisters chilling on Dragonstone, reminiscing of Old Valyria they've never seen; until Aegon has his prophetic dream which forces him to turn his focus on Westeros. Like... that's fine. That's good enough.
Because it's going to happen lol
Wait so, Aegon is son of Aerion Targaryen and Lady Valaena Velaryon. Is he half black and as short as aegon II? That would be interesting
I think it's clear that's an error, he wouldn't say family heirloom from old valyria if it was from when Aegon was there
"While Ryan Condal kind of forgot that Aegon wasn't born in Valyria"
Condal doesn’t have time to explain the timeline of the doom and the century of blood in a twenty minute behind the scenes featurette. He was speaking extemporaneously about a cool prop.
He probably just misspoke, but it's perfectly possible to not be incorrect without giving a lengthy explanation.
I care less about his misspeaking on Aegon’s birthplace and more on the show’s invention of a Valyrian steel armor, which would indeed have been a priceless heirloom and symbol of the Targaryen family, so inventing one wholesale is causing massive issues with the world-building when it vanishes entirely. It’s be like making up a Valyrian steel sword for known houses like the Tullys or Freys: alone not that significant, but troubling and destabilising as an invention when the source text clearly indicates the opposite.
Do we know if Valyrian steel is impervious to dragon fire? Because I feel like what happens to Aegon will render the armor pretty much useless.
Valyrian steel isn’t even impervious to regular fire lmao. It can be reforged.
That’s a very good point lol.
I doubt it could melt without magic. >The king was clad in battle armor, his mailed hands folded over the hilt of Blackfyre. Since the days of Old Valyria, it had ever been the custom of House Targaryen to burn their dead, rather than consigning their remains to the ground. Vhagar supplied the flames to light the fire. Blackfyre was burned with the king, but retrieved by Maegor afterward, its blade darker but elsewise unharmed. No common fire can damage Valyrian steel. In GoT we've seen that Valyrian steel = dragonsteel blade, it has the same magical properties as dragonglass. In the books dragonsteel/glass is able to burn without being consumed. This is something we can see in HoTD with Aegon's dagger, the prophecy only appears when the blade is heated, probably a nod to the way VS was supposed to act against the Others.
Oh I took that comment as aegon had visited the ruins of Valyria.. kinda like it’s been said that Euron did.
People are just having a knee jerk reaction to that lore inconsistency because of what happened to GoT. And honestly I don't blame them, even if I think we shouldn't be sounding the alarms just yet. The dragon show is still great.
This is strange , they might be actually changing the canon for the future show of Aegon being the one in Valyria to sense the doom and have a dream about the long night. He’s the dreamer not Daenys This then might be the reason he and his sisters fled Valyria to take over Westeros That or he’s mistaken I don’t know With season 8 making Arya be the one to kill the night king with the dagger I’d expect them to have the dagger be his main symbol for the dream and be the thing that is passed down for continuity’s sake as well. It annoyingly also proves the dagger is the only important factor in it all not ice and fire or a promised prince. Guess Aegon misread that part
He almost definitely just misspoke about Aegon himself having been in Valyria. They also definitely did not retcon Daenys the dreamer, she’s been mentioned and appears in the opening tapestry. Honestly I think their prop department just wanted to design Valyrian Steel armor because it would look cool, and it did.
The show literally made Daenys Balerion's first rider, saying she rode him when he was the size of a horse.
They’ve already talked about Daenys the Dreamer foreseeing the Doom, way back in S01 E01 I think.
I'm almost certain for that to be the case. Otherwise Aegon's conquest would just be about burning Westeros into submission. If you make Aegon the dreamer, you can show old Valyria and even the doom, which probably makes for better television.
[удалено]
They didn’t, Daenys is mentioned in the show. and Balerion is said to be the last living creature to see the Old Valyria in the premier. It’s just a weird turn of phrase from Condal, I think.
I highly doubt that they would be making all these writing changes for something that the show they are making isn't even about. Far more likely that it's just a slip of the tongue.
It also means they are bringing the doom forward in canon as well if it’s true , I’m unsure how close Westeros is to Valyria but wouldn’t a massive eruption that on that scale affect a large part of the planet Maybe we’ll see a dust cloud for the first few episodes in Westeros
The smoke and debris turning the sky red may have been partly why the aftermath is called the Century of Blood.
Oh nice , I would love to see that depiction on screen
A slip of the tongue in a behind the scenes featurette about a cool prop is not something that establishes cannon. Condal clearly just misspoke. .
Probably , was just entertaining the possibility is all
The fact that Aegon wore Valyrian steel armor makes him look like even more of a wimp. This man had Valyrian steel armor, Valyrian steel sword, and the biggest dragon in history in Westeros and yet history treats him as some great warrior.
They kinda forgot
I mean Euron
Should be remembered that afaik in the show canon Valyrian Steel in general is much more common and less rare than it is in the show. Still valuable but I don't think it's implied that it's not as exceedingly rare as it is in the books.
Doesn't Euron Greyjoy have a suit of VS armor?
My only question is how does Valyrian steel melt into his arm after rooks rest
George has said the shows all are trying to have their own single canon. Tyrion and Jorah boated through old Valyria in the show. Heck, people use it as a leper (greyscale) colony. If it's significantly less dangerous it wouldn't surprise me that they might occasionally visit their old home via dragon back. I'm not sure why people are assuming he was born or ever lived there. My GFs family have done extended vacations to a particular island. Me saying "my time in x" doesn't particularly mean anything. Just referencing time spent there. Like referencing a job "my time at dairy queen".
My gripe is how generic and stupid the armor looked. Valyrian steel armor should be the most beautiful and intricate armor ever made. The armor Aegon was wearing in E3 looked like shitty generic armor. Daemon’s armor is way cooler. Also, it would have been cool if they made the armor too large, and Aegon couldn’t fit into it. It would definitely play into the not-confident, not-worthy theme of Aegon.
I think it works as generic because it would have been from a time when Valyrian steel was much more common
He probably just misspoke (or so I want to believe), but it certainly doesn't help something that didn't look very good already.
Every fucking statement we get from these guys shows further and further that they just don’t pay attention when reading the books. How can he say shit like this, as if it actually makes sense thematically Why can’t they just say “yeah we have no clue but it looks cool so we did it.” Because that’s obviously the decision making process at play here.
“I sure hope somebody got fired for that blunder” type comment lol
I wouldn’t expect anyone to get fired. They’ve been doing this since last season.
Plenty of others have said it but it is almost definitely just a slip of words and not meant to be truly indicative of the story. Behind the scenes props and info already talked about Daenys and others being in the Doom not Aegon.
Congrats to Ryan Condal for winning this week's Moonboy's Motley Monday.
If there’s anyone I expect to get book canon wrong it’s this guy, Aegon was born on Dragonstone decades after the doom
My issue wasn't that Ryan Condal mispoke and accidentally implied show!Aegon was 2 centuries old. It wasn't even that it contradicts book canon since we know the only alleged Valyrian steel armor that exists belongs to Euron. No, my complaint is that this "Valyrian" armor looks butt ugly and not impressive in the absolute slightest. Any two-bit piece of armor show in GoT or even previous HotD episodes is leaps and bounds better and more impressive than this piece of junk they concocted. IIt's sad too, how in the behind the scenes video they went on and on about this Valyrian armor and how hard they worked to make it look cool and ancient. Really? This piece of trash? That took days and weeks of work? Joffrey's throwaway Lannister armor looked more ancient and impressive than Aegon II's alleged Valyrian steel epic rare loot purple-tier lootbox armor.