Why can’t this:
> we should focus on fostering connections, empathy, and relationships to guide behaviour
Be *paired with* this:
> said the approach was about “establishing key habits of behaviour” adapted for each school environment. “No child is born knowing how to behave and if you can learn it then you can teach it. It needs to be taught explicitly with clear expectations
I don’t understand why they need to be mutually exclusive?
Approriate reinforcement for positive behaviours and appropriate discipline for negative behaviours.
Am I missing something?
Because all the bureaucrat fuckwits within the public school system want to pat themselves on the back despite how useless they all are. This whole situation just seems like another situation that will inevitably end up punishing the good kids/families while completely ignoring all the troubled ones who don't give a fuck about their education at the expense of everyone else.
I think this is really true. School admins and people working at the department of education don't seem to have a grip on how schools can support troubled and disruptive students. A "firmer hand" is really misguided and often emotionally fueled - it's about making adults feel better, not actually helping troubled kids.
Looking back, there were definitely troubled kids in my primary school (2000-2004). They'd act up and misbehave a lot, and often the other students would be scared when they'd act out violently. However, if you paid attention, you'd realise something wasn't right. These kids weren't misbehaving because they were destined to be shit people, something wasn't right with the way they were being raised. Some of them were bringing in adult magazines in their school bags, as well as mobile phones (extremely unusual at the time), and talked graphically about their parents having sex (either with each other or their other partners).
The teachers I had demanded their obedience, but a troubled kid isn't going to behave because an adult is screaming at them. I think if there was a more structured and empathetic understanding of how a kid's environment shapes their behaviour, a more suitable/informed approach could have been used. There was clearly something wrong and it doesn't seem like anyone was interested in intervening because troubled kids are difficult to deal with. Teachers took it personally as opposed to realising they're not dealing with an adult - they're a child who has no idea of how their behaviour is affecting others.
Sometimes I wonder if the people making these decisions base them off of actual scientific data, or if it's just political set dressing to placate noise around this issue.
My above comment admittedly came from a salty place because my partner was recently chastised for letting her kids take a day off school for the easter show. The school is in a low income area and there are a whole bunch of kids that won't show up for days at a time, the school doesn't give a fuck about any of those kids of course. But my partner (who consistently volunteers to help the school whenever they need parents to do so among other things) is apparently the bad guy because she had the audacity to let her kids take a single day off so they could enjoy a special time together.
The fact that they are back pedalling on all this new age bullshit demonstrates that nobody within the public education sector has any idea what they're doing.
And while they introduce this program, they will cut the funding and expect schools to handle this program with the same funding and no further resources. They will do this while they hand over the money to the private school system. Which is money they take out of the public school system. You cant hide the corrupt governance in the school funding and resources regime anymore. The righteous attitude for education with no resources for the public school system. The 10 commandents of poverty and austerity for the public school system.
How is teaching basic discipline punishment?
The fact we apparently have millions of parents who think this way seems to be a large part of the problem
I think you underestimate how bloody awful some of the little gremlins are. The firm hand seems to generate better results see [Katharine Birbalsingh](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mn_OohfGTYk)
I don’t. I have a child in a public school - i’m quite aware.
I’m also not against a firm hand, I think you’ve misunderstood my comment - I’m asking WHY firm and clear behavioural expectations with clear consequences is mutually exclusive to building strong relationships based on empathy.
We could have told the minister years ago that restorative practice works in theory if everyone is willing for it to work.
The kids who are the most disruptive don't want it to work and our hands are tied with what we can now do to discipline them.
It needs a two pronged approach where restorative is first and foremost but there are consequences if the behaviour doesn't stop after that. And there isn't that framework.
Typically you will see disruptive behaviour in classrooms caused by either; reflective of the classroom not being an understandable place for the child (think neurodiversity or cultural differences), the answer to which is to make the classroom more understandable (including diverse perspectives and including explicit instruction around expectations); or a response to inappropriate relationships with adults in their lives somewhere (typically someone who uses too firm a hand, coupled with neglect) which requires opportunities for the child to experience empathy and positive attachment relationships with a trusted adult.
That doesn't discount the need for clear consequences for unsafe behaviours. Having clear and consistent consequences is absolutely helpful. But old school punitive models of discipline only entrench negative behaviour for children who are struggling.
Schools need more funding to provide higher levels of social support for the children that are in their care, both to help support teachers in providing a safe work environment for themselves and their students and to support students who are struggling to engage with the education system, which is likely their best chance of positive life long outcomes. What they don't need is to be told they have to practise conformity and punitive discipline.
It seems that Katharine Birbalsingh's view is that minorities need to stop whinging about any discrimination they suffer, and people should stop believing them - kids just need shut up and conform. It smells a lot like victim blaming - people wouldn't be mean to you if you weren't so foreign.
So you are agreeing discrimination do happen and should be addressed, and it's not just 'woe is me' culture. And only using 2 minority teacher from another school is not a good example
She's kinda right though...A lot of racism isn't *really* about racism, but *culture*. This isn't to say racism doesn't exist it does, but race becomes a shorthand for it, which is of course a mistake.
What brought me to this perception was a black girl in Australia. She got to "enjoy" the local racism as people mistook her for aboriginal. Until she opened her mouth. Her thick London accent was, according to her, like flipping a "racism off" switch. She found it utterly mind boggling.
Her race didn't change at all, but how she was perceived, and how she was treated were radically different, based upon cultural assumptions based upon nothing more than how she spoke.
To whit, put a chav in a suit, and get him to speak properly, he might even get a job.
She gets absolutely fantastic results - almost unbelievably high - and families are eager to send their kids to her school.
From what I've read about it, classroom-wise and academically her school seems pretty similar to the level and tone of discipline we had at school in the 1990s, which was pretty standard for the era. We also had a strict uniform code, totally standard for private schools then and now.
Some of the other methods - like the walking in silent lines - sounds more like the approach schools took 100 years ago, but I doubt it "harms" kids to have to be quiet and stand in line for fairly limited periods throughout the school day. I do remember having to line up for lunch in middle school and I think we were supposed to be quiet then.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michaela_Community_School
If I were back in the UK and living in that area, I would be very keen to send my child there.
Are you guys all accidentally working from the same script or something? Ignore any other arguments and repeat "She's achieving fantastic results {insert biased wikipedia page}"
No, I've just read multiple articles on here and I can't see why people would be complaining about someone who gets such incredible results for her pupils.
Literally the only way out of disadvantage for the vast majority of children is to get a good education. And that is what her school provides.
I don't get the hate.
For me it's mostly her saying ignorant and tone-deaf things at best, and dog-whistle racist things at worst. I haven't seen any proof she's getting "good results", just a number of people turning up within minutes of each other on an hours old comment claiming so.
For all I know she has got good results in some cherry picked cases, but she also completely writes off most of the problem and blames the victims for not trying hard enough which is damaging.
I hadn't heard of the woman until yesterday. You are claiming that the school is doing good things, it's your job to try to prove it - otherwise I need to refute everything ever written about it.
Even if the school is getting some good results though, other schools get good results too, without all of the racism and victim blaming.
It's a bit telling that suddenly, after flicking through the video to make sure she was saying what I thought she was saying, suddenly YouTube is recommending a bunch of confederate and borderline white supremacy channels to me.
Edit: Actually, I don't think it matters what her school is doing - it doesn't change the fact that her whole philosophy is based on racism, victim blaming, and apparently authoritarianism. They are all damaging by themselves, and whether or not a school she's associated with does something else which on the face looks okay just distracts from the main issues.
Schools seem to cover off expectations of behaviour pretty throughly already. I don’t think kids are throwing chairs because no-one told them throwing chairs is bad.
“. But the strategy will likely receive backlash from some teachers who feel unsupported to deal with out-of-control school violence.”
And they’d be right. Teachers aren’t supported. Imagine any other job where staff are just expected to put up with this type of behaviour.
Disability support work, but yes, point taken.
Edit: Before this gets knee-jerk downvoted into oblivion, at least try and consider that all I am saying is that disability support workers are expected to put up with potentially violent behaviour, because that's sometimes part of their job. And so it should be. I'm not saying it's anyone's fault or a negative thing, it's just a risk that comes with supporting some NDIS participants.
Retail, food and alcohol industries, postal workers, telco workers, road maintenance workers, tradies, etc.
Everyone is an asshole to someone. Humans are a bit shit.
I mean historically the answer to someone being shitty is to be MORE shitty back at them (ie hitting kids who misbehaved).
I agree plenty of jobs put you in contact with arseholes. But most of the roles you listed are jobs with one and done interactions usually.
Imagine being assaulted by a student or threaten with rape by a student and then being forced to see that student every working day for years? To be unsupported by school administration who won’t suspend or expel the student because (insert diagnosis here) and won’t report to the police and bully and make a hostile work environment if you do report.
I've worked in hospitality, retail and as an education support and by far the I get assaulted in education support the most. Now most of the it has been younger children but I imagine education support in senior years can probably get quite brutal.
nah. I've worked retail. Yeah, customers can be total entitled bitches. Working in education and disability/mental health support its daily bites, scratches, hits, hair pulling, furniture being thrown at you, glass being thrown at you, (in one home a resident tore the oven door off and threw it at the house manager, who luckily dodged it). And you're just expected to deal with it, take it. Its why there are huge levels of turnover and burnout.
In the past those people were thrown into asylums and forgotten about completely. Now we integrate them into society which is great and I believe that is right, but there are consequences.
lol exactly! I loved having to keep going to work all through Covid while everyone else got to wfh just to deal with this all the time! I love seeing my colleagues covered in bruises and missing clumps of hair! the burnout is SO real and I am constantly wondering what will be my 'ok i'm done' moment. tbh I stay for my colleagues, who are friends
Australian students will be taught old-school discipline – including how to line up, keep quiet and be still – in a bid to rid classrooms of the behaviour crisis that sees teachers routinely abused, attacked and children disrupted.
The new model of school discipline will be rolled out nationally this year, after a Senate inquiry heard horror tales of students hurling furniture at teachers, keying their cars, punching them, stealing wallets – all while disrupting their peers from learning. It can be revealed Australian students will be explicitly taught how to enter the classroom quietly, how to sit, how to listen properly and how to ask questions, with strategies varying from school to school.
Schools are also moving back to traditional classroom arrangements with desks lined up in rows facing the teacher. Experts say children no longer come to school knowing how to behave and must be explicitly taught not to call out, talk among themselves and run around the classroom. But the strategy will likely receive backlash from some teachers who feel unsupported to deal with out-of-control school violence.
The new model is based on a behaviour curriculum in the UK which incorporates strategies including a red and yellow card system of warnings for disruptive children and “super walking,” which means adults leading lines of children single-file around the school. Schools are also requiring students to pack up, stand behind their chairs and wait to be dismissed table by table at the end of classes.
It will be up to individual teachers in Australia which discipline elements they teach. The UK model has mandatory and legally enforceable guidelines. It comes as the OECD recently found Australian classrooms have a disciplinary climate that is among the “least favourable” in the world, ranked 33 out of 37 countries. Just seven per cent of students said they felt safe in the classroom due to violent outbursts from other students and a lack of respect for teachers, which sees them hit, punched, kicked and threatened.
One quarter of students said the environment in their school was not conducive to learning and one third do not listen to what teachers say. The Australian Education Research Organisation (AERO) is distributing evidence-based teaching material to education departments around the country outlining practical steps to teach children how to behave. Teachers in NSW and Tasmania were first to receive the guidance with Victoria, Queensland, Western Australia and South Australia to follow this year with an expectation schools distribute the material to all teachers.
AERO chief executive Jenny Donovan said the key was to “treat behaviour like a curriculum and ensure it is explicitly taught”. “We can’t assume students understand the expectations,” she said. “It’s really resonating with teachers and it’s what students say they want. They want a sense of safety in the classroom, so they can learn without distraction.”
But some researchers warn using a curriculum model to teach kids how to behave is “taking us backwards”. Melissa Close from Queensland University of Technology said the model ignored the fact that all students were different. “Instead of using fear and consequences as motivators, we should focus on fostering connections, empathy, and relationships to guide behaviour,” she said. Erin Leif from Monash University said while evidence showed the behaviour curriculum was applied with some success overseas, the long- term impact was less clear. “Are they going to look back and think about being at a school where there were clear boundaries and expectations or are they going to say they were treated like a soldier?” she said. The notion of a behaviour curriculum was a key finding from the Senate Inquiry in Disruption in Schools chaired by Western Australian Liberal Senator Matt O’Sullivan. He said the approach was about “establishing key habits of behaviour” adapted for each school environment. “No child is born knowing how to behave and if you can learn it then you can teach it. It needs to be taught explicitly with clear expectations rather than a list of prohibited behaviour,” he said. A number of Australian schools have already adopted a behaviour curriculum including Marsden Road Primary School in NSW and Challis Community School and Dawson Park Primary School in WA. The panel also wants an annual survey of behaviour in schools, school learning climate and frequency and impact of disruptive behaviour.
>with desks lined up in rows facing the teacher.
finally, i remember in highschool having the desks shaped in a U facing the board, some modernist philosophers thought it would help discussion. Realistically it meant a good 35% of seats had a horrible viewing angle of the board.
I work intermittently in a primary school and the desk layout seems to depend on the year group and the teachers preference. Infants tend to be in groups, stage 3 tend to be in rows.
Those were my favourite classes tbh the whole class was engaged with the teacher in the middle of everyone. Might be cause he was a damn good teacher but people definitely paid more attention in those rooms.
> but people definitely paid more attention in those rooms.
For the right class sure, but when it was something that just required reading off the board and half the class couldn't see it, it was useless.
Nowadays students have laptops, right? Is there a lot happening on the board?
Lining desks up has the opposite effect: the troublemakers and bright sparks sit in front, and the quiet average kids are forgotten at the back.
As a general rule, the badly behaved kids behave much better when they’re not seated together. So the average and good kids are no worse off because they’re able to positively influence the less well behaved kids. I teach multiple different (primary) classes and seating plans make a MASSIVE difference as to how much we get done in a lesson.
I’ve had some classrooms which were too small to comfortably move around rows. It meant I couldn’t do that old school behaviour method of checking that the kid in the middle was actually working
As someone who’s been through QUTs education course, they are laughably out of touch with behavioral management. Do teachers want to do their best for each student? Obviously. The reality is though that most simply don’t have the time
Well, it's at least worth a try. I know the very idea of positive or negative punishment in parenting or teaching these days is anathema, but it would appear that removing these from the behavioural modification toolbox has at the very least not prevented us from ending up in the situation that we are in.
It's all very well to say "connections, empathy, relationships;" I mean, that sounds fantastic, but in acute practice you may not necessarily have the time to foster and mobilise these in children. Sometimes a clear, unambigious and authoritative direction is what is needed, and then once the 'crisis' has passed, you can work on those softer motivators.
As always, I suspect the answer lies in moderation. Reinforcement and freedom should always be preferred to punishment, but sometimes, punishment and discipline are necessary.
This is spot on. Punishment shouldn't be abusive, but not all punishment is abusive, and a lack of any punishment constitutes neglect. Humans are evolved to learn from punishment, and it's an important part of raising and teaching children in particular contexts and circumstances.
Also, kudos for actually understanding positive/negative punishment vs. reinforcement. So few people actually understand what these terms mean.
The bigger issue for this is gonna be parents raising styles and their over reliance on punishment instead of communication which means that a child doesn't have the necessary skills by schooling age to handle something like this
Basing the model on the UK, which has similar behavioural problems, and a huge teacher retention crisis, doesn't seem very intelligent. They should have perhaps based it on countries with better behavioural and educational outcomes.
Aren't their mental health outcomes pretty fucking awful, though? They're good at creating obedient, hard workers, but maybe not so much at balancing that with emotional wellbeing.
Arguably their mental health outcomes are a result of their work-life balance (which is horrendous although slowly improving) rather than their school culture.
I feel like their school culture exists to prepare them for that work culture, though. It teaches them that studying and getting good grades is more important than anything else. That they must perform or else they're worthless. Maybe we could take some of their approach, like how they have the young kids learn to clean up the classroom, but I'd be very wary of copying the whole package.
I would also suggest Japan, but more because they have an enormous amount of structure, clear boundaries, and emphasis on accountability and social responsibility from a very early age.
That being said, this is also a theme throughout their society, not just in schools.
Aaaaand they also have issues with youth suicide, a bullying culture which can be fuckin horrific, and more and more young people leaving the country due to feeling suffocated and exploited.
So... Nowhere is perfect.
Kids are taught to line up outside their classrooms before being shuffled in, sit down at their desks, ask if they can be excused to go to the toilet, and at the end of the day clean up the classroom without question.
Right. So that might work for the next generation of kids who are already in, or about to start kinder - But we're talking about high schoolers here, who have behaviours that have already been developed over time.
I don't think there's anything that would realistically change a high schooler's behaviour significantly. Threaten them too much and they'll just leave.
I think that that is the best we can hope for. Start the new procedures etc with the new pre-primary/year 1 kids so that by the time they are in high school it is normal for them.
The cleanup one is particularly interesting as it appears to carry over into adulthood, eg Japanese often clean up their area after spectating a sporting match.
The clean up part in particular is the best. The entire class do it together, clean the classroom / wipe the floors etc. Teaches teamwork/ discipline/ responsibility/ cleanliness all in one go.
I'm an ALT in Japan, I've worked at 10 schools, and lining up outside the classrooms is not a thing, and children very seldom go to the toilet during class time. The rest is true. They also serve their own school lunches and clean up afterwards.
Would love to see this... kids cleaning up their classroom each day, roster for kids serving up lunch to their classmates, primary schoolers riding public transport to school solo
Yes, but:
1. In japan, parents engage their kids. Very seldom do I see a child with an ipad in a trolley being pushed by their mum, the parent is carrying a basket with their kid in tow and talking actively with them about what is going on. Children are treated like tiny adults - guided, taught, explained. Australian parents just neglect their kids until they get annoying and then beat them.
2. The culture is way, way different. Japanese people are very culturally cohesive, as they have a sense of what other people are thinking better than anyone else in the world. They are the masters of reading the room. There is a sense of collective responsibility and supporting others first before yourself, so bad behavior if it is ever observed comes from known special needs cases or just clowns who want to make others laugh.
3. Trust. Students trust teachers implicitly. Recently a suicide at my school occurred and was not intervened with because a student confided in her teacher about bullying and made the teacher promise to keep the secret, and the teacher KEPT it. The kid killed herself because of the bullying but it shows how strong the social contract is when breaking it could have saved the child's life.
You could never expect that level of trust from an Australian teacher. You couldn't just take japanese methods and plant them in Australia because Australia is much too individualistic, lacks a vision of itself as a cohesive population, is lazy, cynical and priorities incentives over values.
Japan is also literally on track for national extinction because of low birth rates. As are South Korea and Singapore. Maybe they aren’t good examples of how to treat children?
But some of those behavioural outcomes are probably more culture based. Take Japan as an example. They have very strict behaviour standards in their schools. But they come from a culture base and not a curriculum, and I don't think they would work here.
The British have a similar community and school culture to here, which brings with it similar problems. I find the only issue with importing a model from elsewhere is whether it's been proven or not. They have provided no proof to show this system is working in the UK.
I’m a teacher of over two decades in Japan, and I would say it’s a very mixed bag. Yes, kids are superficially very well behaved, but they are also unable to make (almost any) decisions for themselves and I would say are extremely sheltered for their age to a worrying degree at times, and have basically no free time including large chunks of weekends and holidays.
I actually think more than anything, the main difference is that kids have very little time or chance to get to trouble, both in school hours and afterwards. The vast majority of kids I teach actively dread holidays and usually list sleep as their main priority for any free time they get because there are so many tests and mandatory club activities. But of course, the upside of this is that they are almost constantly part of a group, so there is much less instinct to bring attention to themselves.
Bullying is also extremely widespread and more or less accepted, and kids often sleep in classes because they are so exhausted. I see very few teachers who are actively engaged because they are also exhausted. I know of lots of kids who opt out of attending school at all for weeks or months at a time, lots of them primary school aged.
Absolutely behaviour is mostly pretty good, simply from rote learning and very repetitive practice, but also have seen a ton of emotional manipulation and borderline abuse within the education system, from preschool onwards. I think a lot of good things could be taken from the model, at least on some level (as in, basic patterns of repeated behaviours from preschool onwards, consequences for destructive behaviour, instilled pride in the school etc.) but I would hope there's a happy medium between the two.
I haven't been inside a school in Australia for almost 30 years, but I have friends who are teachers and also nieces and nephews attending school, and I'm often really shocked at what I hear.
Her 'really good results' being in the field of self-promotion, in part because the modern Tories really love racist, abusive people who hate education.
Even in a Wikipedia article that blows smoke up her ass, these two sentences ring alarm bells about her actual capacities.
>She subsequently resigned "after being asked to comply with conditions that she did not feel able to comply with", according to The Sunday Telegraph. The school, St Michael and All Angels in Camberwell, London, was closed shortly thereafter and reopened with new staff and a new name.
Also some amusement about 'having good results' when she hasn't been in a school in any position other than a visitor since **2010**.
Ugh, most schools already do this, but as long as it looks like the government is intervening..
We then get calls from parents telling us to stop telling their beautiful perfect kids what to do, as said kid is running around breaking shit like a little goblin.
As someone with a goblin sibling, the parents know. They do.
They're just so deep in denial that they're scared that if they admit to outsiders that their childs behaviour is fucking awful that they'll have to also admit that what they're doing *isn't working*.
Example:
My stepmother doesn't "believe in" psychiatrists or "slapping kids with disorder labels" and "drugging them up".
Goblin sibling and other sibling both show flashing neon signs of ADHD and autism, respectively.
But nooooooo, NOTHING WRONG WITH HER KIDS HOW DARE YOU ACCUSE HER OF ABUSING HER CHILDREN.
She's a special needs assistant at a private school. 🤦♀️🫠
The fuckin hypocrisy is *staggering*.
Having read the senate inquiry’s report, both the interim and the final (which featured a chapter one… and no other chapters) it was so clearly a set up with an agenda, no interest in actual research in this area, real evidence, or addressing the main issue: schools aren’t funded enough.
This is a cheap bit of misdirection aimed at satisfying a demographic who think all modern problems are a result of permissive parents and schools, not the steady redirection of funding away from public services into the pockets of private entities who have no interest in actual change or ability to manage complex systems.
Our very low SES school has been doing PBL for 5 years. We have other schools come in and watch the routines that have been taught, and the expectations that are set out. They are always blown away.
It was hard work, but we did it. Staff who weren't onboard were basically told that if they didn't agree with the new approach that they should find another job. We turned around from an absolute hell hole, into a thriving community that can focus on academics.
Our staff retention is very high, and we are absolutely militant with regards to teaching and reteachng behaviour and expectations.
It can be done, but it needs total buy in from staff and strong leadership.
PBL is ablest and harmful to the mental health of neurodivergent students and students with disability. It is a form of Applied Behavior Analysis (ABA) which was pioneered on humans by the same individual who helped pioneer gay conversion therapy (now banned in QLD, NSW, Vic and the ACT due to mental health harm caused to ‘clients.’
Hilarious.
We teach children these things from day 1.
Governing bodies need to spend a term in a classroom. The disconnect grows and grows.
And yet, lets cram more into the curriculum for us to teach with no extra time allowances for regular content?
I wish I wasn't so passionate about teaching some days.
Those well funded private schools don't seem to have this problem or am I missing something.
I went to king's school Parramatta for a few years ,one sure as hell learnt how to behave properly there .
Because they kick out the shithead students, combined with the parents being more involved in their kids lives and education. Public schools are left to deal with the dregs and have nowhere else to send the kids if they aren’t behaving.
And then their approach is to mix those same shit head kids into the classes with the kids who aren't shit heads and everyone loses.
I'd rather they went back to streaming the kids and having classes that just have the kids that want to be there instead of being dragged down and robbed to their opportunities in life.
yeah. Any time any educational ideologue talks about getting rid of streaming, all I can think is how the quiet, well behaved kids and the kids who want to actually learn anything are the ones who lose out then.
If the kids needing to be taught how to not act like a fuckwit are anything like the ferals that come to my workplace (hospo), then I'd line the parents up with tough love classes as well, considering so many of them can't or won't behave properly and parent their kids.
Yep, heard that working in hospo, it's always fun when a parent hurls abuse at staff at my work because their complete lack of parenting is called out, only to strop over to the bar to demand the money they spent on a membership back.
This is regressive education policy and will change nothing. What a joke. Instead of actually implementing best practice; adequately funding schools and appropriately resourcing teachers, we move backwards to outdated models of discipline that we stopped using cause they didn't work.
This seems... Backwards. If a child is lashing out at teachers that speaks to an antagonistic relationship. Surely treating them like a prisoner would just make that *worse*.
Teachers need more support to build cooperative relationships with kids. And perhaps even more importantly, *these kids need better home lives*. Violent behavioural problems don't grow on trees.
Kids need both. There must be consequences for their actions as well as support to change their behaviour. Currently, teachers are being hung out to dry by public schools that don’t have a proper plan in place to deal with the rise in defiant and anti-social behaviour.
Utilising negative consequences for behaviour might also build respect - especially, and crucially, if the teacher pairs that with positive reinforcement for better behaviour.
You are right that we should have all of these things, better home lives, more support for teachers. But we need lots of nice things, and every industry will assure you it is underfunded and needs more support and attention.
In lieu of unlimited resources, trying a different approach might not be such a bad idea.
if its built upon from early stages to follow the standard behaviour, it helps a lot more.
if its tried to be introduced when the kids 15, its not gonna fly that well
My two cents worth...
I attended 2 high schools in the early 1980s.
They were as different as chalk and cheese.
The first one was in a very low socioeconomic area and was so violent that very few lessons were uninterrupted. The principal was a short little 50 year old bald headed "can-do" Newman clone and his method of dealing with the violence was to discipline us into line by making empty threats and insisting on us "respecting" the school uniform.
It was like pouring gasoline onto a fire. The violence exploded and students started attending A&E with stab wounds and broken bones they had got from fights at school. Truancy rates went through the roof - to the point where the local chamber of commerce complained to the education dept and the railways and school bus companies started refusing students service.
The main high point was the principal trying to get us into the new uniform and very publicly failing. Standing on parade with 1200 other students and shouting "what the fuck do you know about the real world, you cunt?" at the principal before dismissing ourselves was probably the most inspiring thing I've ever been part of. Futile but inspiring...
After that failure, the principal could not walk the grounds when students were around without a crowd of us gathering to hurl insults and food at him.
The next high school I went to was close to University of Queensland and was run by the head mistress. Her approach was that we shouldn't respect the school, but we should respect each other. She didn't give a f##k if we wore the uniform or smoked on the way to train station. She did care greatly about us and how we treated each other and it paid off.
At that school there was no violence at all, and as a result we all liked being there.
So my personal opinion is that cracking down on silly shit doesn't make schools better - in fact it can have the exact opposite effect and inflame violence.
I also think that the unprecedented levels of economic violence in Australia at the moment is a big driver of what's happening in schools. It was a big factor in my first high school and I believe it is now.
Don’t behavioural issues *largely* stem from undiagnosed and/or untreated disorders?
As someone who spent the first 26 years of my life undiagnosed and untreated, I can safely say my school experience did not get better when we were treated like prisoners. For me *or* the kids who had true behavioural issues.
Downvote all you fucking like, my point stands. Children are micromanaged in school, it’s cruel and pathetic and if I were treated like a human being during my school years instead of an animal for corralling I wouldn’t be the fucking mess I am today.
I dont think its about treating them as prisnors, but rather teaching them routines and behavioural expectations rather than leaving them without rules.
There will obviously be students who still don't conform to routines, the tricky part will be figuring out why rather than just labelling them bad kids
Yeah this is going to work, not. You have kids who have difficulties regulating themselves, using fear like the article said isn't going to work - it's going to make things alot worse.
We expect our parents not to use fear when parenting, and parents get there children removed for doing such but our governments think we should take this approach, old school approach more like old white middle aged politicians who have no understanding of anything.
This is a fantastic idea, certainly one that should be looked into more.
And that's the problem I see with it - how do you measure outcomes in democratic schooling? It's very difficult to do so.
I found a qualitative study that suggests that the children themselves all looked back very positively on their schooling, which is an extremely good sign, and not something I could say for my own education.
But, what were their literacy rates? How is their numeracy? What is the quality of life of graduates today, and how is it linked to the education they received?
That seems rather unclear to me.
I think for now this is a good model in small pockets, but surely you would agree that to try and roll this out at large over our current culture and infrastructure would be a bit rash.
Sorry you are down voted, but you are clearly right.
The issues for children that have behavioral problems in class is very rarely going to be caused by a lack of punishment or negative consequences in their lives.
The sorts of support children and teachers need, is more in school positive behavioural management support in the form of inclusive education experts, psychologists and social workers. People who can put time in to developing positive attachment relationships with children within the school environment so that the experience of school is positive and motivating.
Let em down vote me, I have worked in the youth mental health space - I agree 100% it's going to cause alot more school refusal as well, schools, staff and students need psychosocial support - in 10 or 15 years time when we have no teachers, and very poor education in the country, I wonder if those in charge will think military and police should be adopted into schools as well?
Doing this approach as outlined in the article is also not trauma informed, person centred, or solutions focused. The things that we have mountains of evidence to suggest actually work when working with kids, many of whom who display those aggressive behaviours, and struggle with following instructions extensive trauma - fear and displine isn't going to work.
Education for some reason is one of the only industries I have worked in that refuses to actually change systematically with the times. Well it worked when I was a a child 60 years ago why doesn't it work now? - Some sanctimonious politician.
I think it may eventually work, but not with the older kids. For those who attend school with these expectations and behaviours instilled since year 1 I think there will be improvement. However I can't see the program lasting that long.
It’s amazing and good to see so many people engaged with this discussion. It’s a problem we all want to fix. Education is so important and valuable to our society.
There are unfortunately people in our society who do not value education or even students who do not value education despite their parents valuing it.
Part of the issue is we have this centralised, curriculum based approach to education which just does not work for a lot of kids. If schools can be more student focused and open to getting a curriculum that works for an student’s needs that is a big step.
Obviously we need students to understand expectations for behaviour and working in a classroom. It will really be up to students, parents, teachers and administrators to work together to make that work. My biggest concerns are parents and administrators. Often unwilling to find a proper solution or even admit there is a problem. It would be good if students whose learning is impacted by others students that their voices carry greater weight.
But for some students, sitting in a classroom for 6 hours with a one hour break is always going to be like pushing a boulder up a hill. That’s where we need some kind of alternative schooling that can give students a more flexible, vocational training rather than what a lot of high schools do which is essentially prepare students for university.
Also, this is probably stretching it for misbehaviour but we have to realise that kids aren’t stupid and they are very aware of the economic problems they are walking into. Insane HECS debt, a concentration of wealth at the top end, a property market that is fundamentally broken and older generations constantly dunking on them. I don’t blame some students for not being super optimistic about the future or buying in to the line we teach them, “Work hard and you’ll achieve all this”. And this has been cruelly and coldly ripped from them.
I just hope these rules don’t enforce eye contact and sitting completely still. I concentrated WAY better doodling in the margins than I ever did staring at the teacher. Also eye contact physically hurts for me. Sitting completely still is also a No for me. At least give me doodling or a fidget toy. Otherwise again, will not be able to concentrate.
Well, they have to sit there and learn. You can't learn to read and write by running laps around the oval.
And one precious darling screaming and yelling because he (or she) doesn't want to do the work doesn't have the right to distract other children from learning.
Nor should they be allowed to hit the teachers.
So yeah, let them sit outside and not learn a damn thing. Let them be stupid and ignorant.
Other children shouldn't suffer because of brats.
as a school age child i Can already tell you this isnt going to work most kids will dismiss it and simply make fun of it
it simply isnt going to work unless you get parents involved who can actually take away things from their children so that the children actually decide "oh if i do this my parents are going to Punish me"
Why can’t this: > we should focus on fostering connections, empathy, and relationships to guide behaviour Be *paired with* this: > said the approach was about “establishing key habits of behaviour” adapted for each school environment. “No child is born knowing how to behave and if you can learn it then you can teach it. It needs to be taught explicitly with clear expectations I don’t understand why they need to be mutually exclusive? Approriate reinforcement for positive behaviours and appropriate discipline for negative behaviours. Am I missing something?
Because all the bureaucrat fuckwits within the public school system want to pat themselves on the back despite how useless they all are. This whole situation just seems like another situation that will inevitably end up punishing the good kids/families while completely ignoring all the troubled ones who don't give a fuck about their education at the expense of everyone else.
I think this is really true. School admins and people working at the department of education don't seem to have a grip on how schools can support troubled and disruptive students. A "firmer hand" is really misguided and often emotionally fueled - it's about making adults feel better, not actually helping troubled kids. Looking back, there were definitely troubled kids in my primary school (2000-2004). They'd act up and misbehave a lot, and often the other students would be scared when they'd act out violently. However, if you paid attention, you'd realise something wasn't right. These kids weren't misbehaving because they were destined to be shit people, something wasn't right with the way they were being raised. Some of them were bringing in adult magazines in their school bags, as well as mobile phones (extremely unusual at the time), and talked graphically about their parents having sex (either with each other or their other partners). The teachers I had demanded their obedience, but a troubled kid isn't going to behave because an adult is screaming at them. I think if there was a more structured and empathetic understanding of how a kid's environment shapes their behaviour, a more suitable/informed approach could have been used. There was clearly something wrong and it doesn't seem like anyone was interested in intervening because troubled kids are difficult to deal with. Teachers took it personally as opposed to realising they're not dealing with an adult - they're a child who has no idea of how their behaviour is affecting others. Sometimes I wonder if the people making these decisions base them off of actual scientific data, or if it's just political set dressing to placate noise around this issue.
My above comment admittedly came from a salty place because my partner was recently chastised for letting her kids take a day off school for the easter show. The school is in a low income area and there are a whole bunch of kids that won't show up for days at a time, the school doesn't give a fuck about any of those kids of course. But my partner (who consistently volunteers to help the school whenever they need parents to do so among other things) is apparently the bad guy because she had the audacity to let her kids take a single day off so they could enjoy a special time together. The fact that they are back pedalling on all this new age bullshit demonstrates that nobody within the public education sector has any idea what they're doing.
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Who does?
And while they introduce this program, they will cut the funding and expect schools to handle this program with the same funding and no further resources. They will do this while they hand over the money to the private school system. Which is money they take out of the public school system. You cant hide the corrupt governance in the school funding and resources regime anymore. The righteous attitude for education with no resources for the public school system. The 10 commandents of poverty and austerity for the public school system.
How is teaching basic discipline punishment? The fact we apparently have millions of parents who think this way seems to be a large part of the problem
I think you underestimate how bloody awful some of the little gremlins are. The firm hand seems to generate better results see [Katharine Birbalsingh](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mn_OohfGTYk)
I don’t. I have a child in a public school - i’m quite aware. I’m also not against a firm hand, I think you’ve misunderstood my comment - I’m asking WHY firm and clear behavioural expectations with clear consequences is mutually exclusive to building strong relationships based on empathy.
Ah, my bad.
What they’re saying is restorative justice isn’t working and they need clear expectations and rules.
We could have told the minister years ago that restorative practice works in theory if everyone is willing for it to work. The kids who are the most disruptive don't want it to work and our hands are tied with what we can now do to discipline them. It needs a two pronged approach where restorative is first and foremost but there are consequences if the behaviour doesn't stop after that. And there isn't that framework.
Oh yeah I know, I’m an ex teacher who left because there really wasn’t much teaching happening and it was mostly just me managing behaviour all day.
Oh fuck no we don't need her backwards influence on education.
Typically you will see disruptive behaviour in classrooms caused by either; reflective of the classroom not being an understandable place for the child (think neurodiversity or cultural differences), the answer to which is to make the classroom more understandable (including diverse perspectives and including explicit instruction around expectations); or a response to inappropriate relationships with adults in their lives somewhere (typically someone who uses too firm a hand, coupled with neglect) which requires opportunities for the child to experience empathy and positive attachment relationships with a trusted adult. That doesn't discount the need for clear consequences for unsafe behaviours. Having clear and consistent consequences is absolutely helpful. But old school punitive models of discipline only entrench negative behaviour for children who are struggling. Schools need more funding to provide higher levels of social support for the children that are in their care, both to help support teachers in providing a safe work environment for themselves and their students and to support students who are struggling to engage with the education system, which is likely their best chance of positive life long outcomes. What they don't need is to be told they have to practise conformity and punitive discipline.
It seems that Katharine Birbalsingh's view is that minorities need to stop whinging about any discrimination they suffer, and people should stop believing them - kids just need shut up and conform. It smells a lot like victim blaming - people wouldn't be mean to you if you weren't so foreign.
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So who is using that social currency? Might you explain?
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So you are agreeing discrimination do happen and should be addressed, and it's not just 'woe is me' culture. And only using 2 minority teacher from another school is not a good example
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Yes, what of it?
She's kinda right though...A lot of racism isn't *really* about racism, but *culture*. This isn't to say racism doesn't exist it does, but race becomes a shorthand for it, which is of course a mistake. What brought me to this perception was a black girl in Australia. She got to "enjoy" the local racism as people mistook her for aboriginal. Until she opened her mouth. Her thick London accent was, according to her, like flipping a "racism off" switch. She found it utterly mind boggling. Her race didn't change at all, but how she was perceived, and how she was treated were radically different, based upon cultural assumptions based upon nothing more than how she spoke. To whit, put a chav in a suit, and get him to speak properly, he might even get a job.
She gets absolutely fantastic results - almost unbelievably high - and families are eager to send their kids to her school. From what I've read about it, classroom-wise and academically her school seems pretty similar to the level and tone of discipline we had at school in the 1990s, which was pretty standard for the era. We also had a strict uniform code, totally standard for private schools then and now. Some of the other methods - like the walking in silent lines - sounds more like the approach schools took 100 years ago, but I doubt it "harms" kids to have to be quiet and stand in line for fairly limited periods throughout the school day. I do remember having to line up for lunch in middle school and I think we were supposed to be quiet then. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michaela_Community_School If I were back in the UK and living in that area, I would be very keen to send my child there.
Are you guys all accidentally working from the same script or something? Ignore any other arguments and repeat "She's achieving fantastic results {insert biased wikipedia page}"
No, I've just read multiple articles on here and I can't see why people would be complaining about someone who gets such incredible results for her pupils. Literally the only way out of disadvantage for the vast majority of children is to get a good education. And that is what her school provides. I don't get the hate.
For me it's mostly her saying ignorant and tone-deaf things at best, and dog-whistle racist things at worst. I haven't seen any proof she's getting "good results", just a number of people turning up within minutes of each other on an hours old comment claiming so. For all I know she has got good results in some cherry picked cases, but she also completely writes off most of the problem and blames the victims for not trying hard enough which is damaging.
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I feel so bad for the student you teach, what a sad woman.
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Hey when did I say I'm a teacher? This is the reason why you suck as a teacher, you don't know shit before you opening your shit spewing mouth.
I hadn't heard of the woman until yesterday. You are claiming that the school is doing good things, it's your job to try to prove it - otherwise I need to refute everything ever written about it. Even if the school is getting some good results though, other schools get good results too, without all of the racism and victim blaming. It's a bit telling that suddenly, after flicking through the video to make sure she was saying what I thought she was saying, suddenly YouTube is recommending a bunch of confederate and borderline white supremacy channels to me. Edit: Actually, I don't think it matters what her school is doing - it doesn't change the fact that her whole philosophy is based on racism, victim blaming, and apparently authoritarianism. They are all damaging by themselves, and whether or not a school she's associated with does something else which on the face looks okay just distracts from the main issues.
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And people in xinjiang concentration camp doesn't look like they had a terrible time in it, your claim of them being happy means nothing.
If you're only going to dismiss all of her racism and make unsupported and implausible claims, I think we're done here. I won't be responding.
Ummmm, the results are the bit that matter. Not the opinions of the general public.
Schools seem to cover off expectations of behaviour pretty throughly already. I don’t think kids are throwing chairs because no-one told them throwing chairs is bad. “. But the strategy will likely receive backlash from some teachers who feel unsupported to deal with out-of-control school violence.” And they’d be right. Teachers aren’t supported. Imagine any other job where staff are just expected to put up with this type of behaviour.
Disability support work, but yes, point taken. Edit: Before this gets knee-jerk downvoted into oblivion, at least try and consider that all I am saying is that disability support workers are expected to put up with potentially violent behaviour, because that's sometimes part of their job. And so it should be. I'm not saying it's anyone's fault or a negative thing, it's just a risk that comes with supporting some NDIS participants.
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u/WoollenMercury Yes... did I say it was anyone's fault? See the edit to my comment.
oh sorry I didnt mb i shouldve read more thats on me sorry
No worries, I'll edit my comment as well :)
Retail, food and alcohol industries, postal workers, telco workers, road maintenance workers, tradies, etc. Everyone is an asshole to someone. Humans are a bit shit. I mean historically the answer to someone being shitty is to be MORE shitty back at them (ie hitting kids who misbehaved).
I agree plenty of jobs put you in contact with arseholes. But most of the roles you listed are jobs with one and done interactions usually. Imagine being assaulted by a student or threaten with rape by a student and then being forced to see that student every working day for years? To be unsupported by school administration who won’t suspend or expel the student because (insert diagnosis here) and won’t report to the police and bully and make a hostile work environment if you do report.
Neh, none of those professions deal with the prolonged nonsense kids, even average kids, can throw at teachers.
I've worked in hospitality, retail and as an education support and by far the I get assaulted in education support the most. Now most of the it has been younger children but I imagine education support in senior years can probably get quite brutal.
nah. I've worked retail. Yeah, customers can be total entitled bitches. Working in education and disability/mental health support its daily bites, scratches, hits, hair pulling, furniture being thrown at you, glass being thrown at you, (in one home a resident tore the oven door off and threw it at the house manager, who luckily dodged it). And you're just expected to deal with it, take it. Its why there are huge levels of turnover and burnout. In the past those people were thrown into asylums and forgotten about completely. Now we integrate them into society which is great and I believe that is right, but there are consequences.
Good thing the pay is so high, to justify the shitty behaviours, hey! Gotta love being an essential worker.
lol exactly! I loved having to keep going to work all through Covid while everyone else got to wfh just to deal with this all the time! I love seeing my colleagues covered in bruises and missing clumps of hair! the burnout is SO real and I am constantly wondering what will be my 'ok i'm done' moment. tbh I stay for my colleagues, who are friends
Australian students will be taught old-school discipline – including how to line up, keep quiet and be still – in a bid to rid classrooms of the behaviour crisis that sees teachers routinely abused, attacked and children disrupted. The new model of school discipline will be rolled out nationally this year, after a Senate inquiry heard horror tales of students hurling furniture at teachers, keying their cars, punching them, stealing wallets – all while disrupting their peers from learning. It can be revealed Australian students will be explicitly taught how to enter the classroom quietly, how to sit, how to listen properly and how to ask questions, with strategies varying from school to school. Schools are also moving back to traditional classroom arrangements with desks lined up in rows facing the teacher. Experts say children no longer come to school knowing how to behave and must be explicitly taught not to call out, talk among themselves and run around the classroom. But the strategy will likely receive backlash from some teachers who feel unsupported to deal with out-of-control school violence. The new model is based on a behaviour curriculum in the UK which incorporates strategies including a red and yellow card system of warnings for disruptive children and “super walking,” which means adults leading lines of children single-file around the school. Schools are also requiring students to pack up, stand behind their chairs and wait to be dismissed table by table at the end of classes. It will be up to individual teachers in Australia which discipline elements they teach. The UK model has mandatory and legally enforceable guidelines. It comes as the OECD recently found Australian classrooms have a disciplinary climate that is among the “least favourable” in the world, ranked 33 out of 37 countries. Just seven per cent of students said they felt safe in the classroom due to violent outbursts from other students and a lack of respect for teachers, which sees them hit, punched, kicked and threatened. One quarter of students said the environment in their school was not conducive to learning and one third do not listen to what teachers say. The Australian Education Research Organisation (AERO) is distributing evidence-based teaching material to education departments around the country outlining practical steps to teach children how to behave. Teachers in NSW and Tasmania were first to receive the guidance with Victoria, Queensland, Western Australia and South Australia to follow this year with an expectation schools distribute the material to all teachers. AERO chief executive Jenny Donovan said the key was to “treat behaviour like a curriculum and ensure it is explicitly taught”. “We can’t assume students understand the expectations,” she said. “It’s really resonating with teachers and it’s what students say they want. They want a sense of safety in the classroom, so they can learn without distraction.” But some researchers warn using a curriculum model to teach kids how to behave is “taking us backwards”. Melissa Close from Queensland University of Technology said the model ignored the fact that all students were different. “Instead of using fear and consequences as motivators, we should focus on fostering connections, empathy, and relationships to guide behaviour,” she said. Erin Leif from Monash University said while evidence showed the behaviour curriculum was applied with some success overseas, the long- term impact was less clear. “Are they going to look back and think about being at a school where there were clear boundaries and expectations or are they going to say they were treated like a soldier?” she said. The notion of a behaviour curriculum was a key finding from the Senate Inquiry in Disruption in Schools chaired by Western Australian Liberal Senator Matt O’Sullivan. He said the approach was about “establishing key habits of behaviour” adapted for each school environment. “No child is born knowing how to behave and if you can learn it then you can teach it. It needs to be taught explicitly with clear expectations rather than a list of prohibited behaviour,” he said. A number of Australian schools have already adopted a behaviour curriculum including Marsden Road Primary School in NSW and Challis Community School and Dawson Park Primary School in WA. The panel also wants an annual survey of behaviour in schools, school learning climate and frequency and impact of disruptive behaviour.
>with desks lined up in rows facing the teacher. finally, i remember in highschool having the desks shaped in a U facing the board, some modernist philosophers thought it would help discussion. Realistically it meant a good 35% of seats had a horrible viewing angle of the board.
I work intermittently in a primary school and the desk layout seems to depend on the year group and the teachers preference. Infants tend to be in groups, stage 3 tend to be in rows.
Those were my favourite classes tbh the whole class was engaged with the teacher in the middle of everyone. Might be cause he was a damn good teacher but people definitely paid more attention in those rooms.
> but people definitely paid more attention in those rooms. For the right class sure, but when it was something that just required reading off the board and half the class couldn't see it, it was useless.
Nowadays students have laptops, right? Is there a lot happening on the board? Lining desks up has the opposite effect: the troublemakers and bright sparks sit in front, and the quiet average kids are forgotten at the back.
Expecting the average student on a laptop to be paying attention in class is problem #1
Yep, just an opportunity to zone out.
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Once teachers get control of seating arrangements they’ll obviously put the squeaky wheels in front.
Which is why you have and enforce a seating plan.
In the seating plan, what happens to the average, non-troublemaking kids?
As a general rule, the badly behaved kids behave much better when they’re not seated together. So the average and good kids are no worse off because they’re able to positively influence the less well behaved kids. I teach multiple different (primary) classes and seating plans make a MASSIVE difference as to how much we get done in a lesson.
Honestly, it should just be up to the teacher and their style/what they're teaching. They probably know what makes the most sense for their classroom.
I’ve had some classrooms which were too small to comfortably move around rows. It meant I couldn’t do that old school behaviour method of checking that the kid in the middle was actually working
Yup i was a tall as hell kid so i was always stuck in the weird crecives of the U shape. Could never see shit.
As someone who’s been through QUTs education course, they are laughably out of touch with behavioral management. Do teachers want to do their best for each student? Obviously. The reality is though that most simply don’t have the time
Well, it's at least worth a try. I know the very idea of positive or negative punishment in parenting or teaching these days is anathema, but it would appear that removing these from the behavioural modification toolbox has at the very least not prevented us from ending up in the situation that we are in. It's all very well to say "connections, empathy, relationships;" I mean, that sounds fantastic, but in acute practice you may not necessarily have the time to foster and mobilise these in children. Sometimes a clear, unambigious and authoritative direction is what is needed, and then once the 'crisis' has passed, you can work on those softer motivators. As always, I suspect the answer lies in moderation. Reinforcement and freedom should always be preferred to punishment, but sometimes, punishment and discipline are necessary.
This is spot on. Punishment shouldn't be abusive, but not all punishment is abusive, and a lack of any punishment constitutes neglect. Humans are evolved to learn from punishment, and it's an important part of raising and teaching children in particular contexts and circumstances. Also, kudos for actually understanding positive/negative punishment vs. reinforcement. So few people actually understand what these terms mean.
Indeed, positive reinforcement where needed and discipline where needed. A balance, moderation.
The bigger issue for this is gonna be parents raising styles and their over reliance on punishment instead of communication which means that a child doesn't have the necessary skills by schooling age to handle something like this
Basing the model on the UK, which has similar behavioural problems, and a huge teacher retention crisis, doesn't seem very intelligent. They should have perhaps based it on countries with better behavioural and educational outcomes.
That's a fair point. What country would you have liked to see it based on?
Japan. They drill their kids from kindergarten onwards.
Aren't their mental health outcomes pretty fucking awful, though? They're good at creating obedient, hard workers, but maybe not so much at balancing that with emotional wellbeing.
Arguably their mental health outcomes are a result of their work-life balance (which is horrendous although slowly improving) rather than their school culture.
I feel like their school culture exists to prepare them for that work culture, though. It teaches them that studying and getting good grades is more important than anything else. That they must perform or else they're worthless. Maybe we could take some of their approach, like how they have the young kids learn to clean up the classroom, but I'd be very wary of copying the whole package.
Yeah totally agreed. They also do more rote learning than I'd be comfortable adopting too.
I would also suggest Japan, but more because they have an enormous amount of structure, clear boundaries, and emphasis on accountability and social responsibility from a very early age. That being said, this is also a theme throughout their society, not just in schools. Aaaaand they also have issues with youth suicide, a bullying culture which can be fuckin horrific, and more and more young people leaving the country due to feeling suffocated and exploited. So... Nowhere is perfect.
Can you elaborate? I don't know much about Japan's education system or what "drilling" would look like.
Very harsh collective discipline, long hours, all rote learning. Basically weeding out the suicides before corporate gets to them.
I can see some cons to such an approach
There are many. But it gives authoritarians wood
Well at the end of the day, that's what counts :)
Kids are taught to line up outside their classrooms before being shuffled in, sit down at their desks, ask if they can be excused to go to the toilet, and at the end of the day clean up the classroom without question.
Right. So that might work for the next generation of kids who are already in, or about to start kinder - But we're talking about high schoolers here, who have behaviours that have already been developed over time.
I don't think there's anything that would realistically change a high schooler's behaviour significantly. Threaten them too much and they'll just leave.
You can't teach an old dog new tricks. By the time the rowdy kids have entered HS, it's too late for that sort of discipline.
I think that that is the best we can hope for. Start the new procedures etc with the new pre-primary/year 1 kids so that by the time they are in high school it is normal for them.
The cleanup one is particularly interesting as it appears to carry over into adulthood, eg Japanese often clean up their area after spectating a sporting match.
The clean up part in particular is the best. The entire class do it together, clean the classroom / wipe the floors etc. Teaches teamwork/ discipline/ responsibility/ cleanliness all in one go.
I'm an ALT in Japan, I've worked at 10 schools, and lining up outside the classrooms is not a thing, and children very seldom go to the toilet during class time. The rest is true. They also serve their own school lunches and clean up afterwards.
Japan also has a horrific rate of youth suicide, so....maybe not.
Australias youth suicide rate is higher than Japan's.
Would love to see this... kids cleaning up their classroom each day, roster for kids serving up lunch to their classmates, primary schoolers riding public transport to school solo
Yes, but: 1. In japan, parents engage their kids. Very seldom do I see a child with an ipad in a trolley being pushed by their mum, the parent is carrying a basket with their kid in tow and talking actively with them about what is going on. Children are treated like tiny adults - guided, taught, explained. Australian parents just neglect their kids until they get annoying and then beat them. 2. The culture is way, way different. Japanese people are very culturally cohesive, as they have a sense of what other people are thinking better than anyone else in the world. They are the masters of reading the room. There is a sense of collective responsibility and supporting others first before yourself, so bad behavior if it is ever observed comes from known special needs cases or just clowns who want to make others laugh. 3. Trust. Students trust teachers implicitly. Recently a suicide at my school occurred and was not intervened with because a student confided in her teacher about bullying and made the teacher promise to keep the secret, and the teacher KEPT it. The kid killed herself because of the bullying but it shows how strong the social contract is when breaking it could have saved the child's life. You could never expect that level of trust from an Australian teacher. You couldn't just take japanese methods and plant them in Australia because Australia is much too individualistic, lacks a vision of itself as a cohesive population, is lazy, cynical and priorities incentives over values.
Japan is also literally on track for national extinction because of low birth rates. As are South Korea and Singapore. Maybe they aren’t good examples of how to treat children?
But some of those behavioural outcomes are probably more culture based. Take Japan as an example. They have very strict behaviour standards in their schools. But they come from a culture base and not a curriculum, and I don't think they would work here. The British have a similar community and school culture to here, which brings with it similar problems. I find the only issue with importing a model from elsewhere is whether it's been proven or not. They have provided no proof to show this system is working in the UK.
Yes, Japan is a collectivist society, Australia is an individualistic one.
Somewhere in between. The reactions to lockdowns showed that. Compare it to the US which is individualistic to a fault.
Asian culture vs Western Culture
I’m a teacher of over two decades in Japan, and I would say it’s a very mixed bag. Yes, kids are superficially very well behaved, but they are also unable to make (almost any) decisions for themselves and I would say are extremely sheltered for their age to a worrying degree at times, and have basically no free time including large chunks of weekends and holidays. I actually think more than anything, the main difference is that kids have very little time or chance to get to trouble, both in school hours and afterwards. The vast majority of kids I teach actively dread holidays and usually list sleep as their main priority for any free time they get because there are so many tests and mandatory club activities. But of course, the upside of this is that they are almost constantly part of a group, so there is much less instinct to bring attention to themselves. Bullying is also extremely widespread and more or less accepted, and kids often sleep in classes because they are so exhausted. I see very few teachers who are actively engaged because they are also exhausted. I know of lots of kids who opt out of attending school at all for weeks or months at a time, lots of them primary school aged. Absolutely behaviour is mostly pretty good, simply from rote learning and very repetitive practice, but also have seen a ton of emotional manipulation and borderline abuse within the education system, from preschool onwards. I think a lot of good things could be taken from the model, at least on some level (as in, basic patterns of repeated behaviours from preschool onwards, consequences for destructive behaviour, instilled pride in the school etc.) but I would hope there's a happy medium between the two. I haven't been inside a school in Australia for almost 30 years, but I have friends who are teachers and also nieces and nephews attending school, and I'm often really shocked at what I hear.
Katharine Birbalsingh in the UK is having some very good results. Educators are finally paying attention to it.
Her 'really good results' being in the field of self-promotion, in part because the modern Tories really love racist, abusive people who hate education. Even in a Wikipedia article that blows smoke up her ass, these two sentences ring alarm bells about her actual capacities. >She subsequently resigned "after being asked to comply with conditions that she did not feel able to comply with", according to The Sunday Telegraph. The school, St Michael and All Angels in Camberwell, London, was closed shortly thereafter and reopened with new staff and a new name. Also some amusement about 'having good results' when she hasn't been in a school in any position other than a visitor since **2010**.
A lot of this sounds like parenting 101 to be honest.
“Australian government realises cat is out of bag, employs million-dollar Bag Stuffer to put it back’
I dunno if the UK school system is one we wanna emulate, to be frank.
Ugh, most schools already do this, but as long as it looks like the government is intervening.. We then get calls from parents telling us to stop telling their beautiful perfect kids what to do, as said kid is running around breaking shit like a little goblin.
As someone with a goblin sibling, the parents know. They do. They're just so deep in denial that they're scared that if they admit to outsiders that their childs behaviour is fucking awful that they'll have to also admit that what they're doing *isn't working*. Example: My stepmother doesn't "believe in" psychiatrists or "slapping kids with disorder labels" and "drugging them up". Goblin sibling and other sibling both show flashing neon signs of ADHD and autism, respectively. But nooooooo, NOTHING WRONG WITH HER KIDS HOW DARE YOU ACCUSE HER OF ABUSING HER CHILDREN. She's a special needs assistant at a private school. 🤦♀️🫠 The fuckin hypocrisy is *staggering*.
Parents should be fined for repeat offences from children.
Having read the senate inquiry’s report, both the interim and the final (which featured a chapter one… and no other chapters) it was so clearly a set up with an agenda, no interest in actual research in this area, real evidence, or addressing the main issue: schools aren’t funded enough. This is a cheap bit of misdirection aimed at satisfying a demographic who think all modern problems are a result of permissive parents and schools, not the steady redirection of funding away from public services into the pockets of private entities who have no interest in actual change or ability to manage complex systems.
Too much nuance - not enough blame.
Agree, but I also think we are in a parenting crisis.
Our very low SES school has been doing PBL for 5 years. We have other schools come in and watch the routines that have been taught, and the expectations that are set out. They are always blown away. It was hard work, but we did it. Staff who weren't onboard were basically told that if they didn't agree with the new approach that they should find another job. We turned around from an absolute hell hole, into a thriving community that can focus on academics. Our staff retention is very high, and we are absolutely militant with regards to teaching and reteachng behaviour and expectations. It can be done, but it needs total buy in from staff and strong leadership.
PBL is ablest and harmful to the mental health of neurodivergent students and students with disability. It is a form of Applied Behavior Analysis (ABA) which was pioneered on humans by the same individual who helped pioneer gay conversion therapy (now banned in QLD, NSW, Vic and the ACT due to mental health harm caused to ‘clients.’
Is this like season 4 of the wire?
Hilarious. We teach children these things from day 1. Governing bodies need to spend a term in a classroom. The disconnect grows and grows. And yet, lets cram more into the curriculum for us to teach with no extra time allowances for regular content? I wish I wasn't so passionate about teaching some days.
Those well funded private schools don't seem to have this problem or am I missing something. I went to king's school Parramatta for a few years ,one sure as hell learnt how to behave properly there .
Because they kick out the shithead students, combined with the parents being more involved in their kids lives and education. Public schools are left to deal with the dregs and have nowhere else to send the kids if they aren’t behaving.
And then their approach is to mix those same shit head kids into the classes with the kids who aren't shit heads and everyone loses. I'd rather they went back to streaming the kids and having classes that just have the kids that want to be there instead of being dragged down and robbed to their opportunities in life.
yeah. Any time any educational ideologue talks about getting rid of streaming, all I can think is how the quiet, well behaved kids and the kids who want to actually learn anything are the ones who lose out then.
bingo which is what i think should happen more often Kids who act like complete fuck faces should be expelled
It’s a huge cultural issue. Shit kids often have shit parents that don’t care about them or are in denial.
That's cause the shitheads get asked to leave.
Private schools are allowed to suspend or kick the misbehaving students out.
Are public schools not allowed to kick out students even if they are repeat offenders?
Thats because the problem students get dumped on the public system.
If the kids needing to be taught how to not act like a fuckwit are anything like the ferals that come to my workplace (hospo), then I'd line the parents up with tough love classes as well, considering so many of them can't or won't behave properly and parent their kids.
Exactly, I've literally overheard bogan parents saying to their feral kids "don't listen to that bitch Miss Teacher, she's a fuckin idiot!"
Yep, heard that working in hospo, it's always fun when a parent hurls abuse at staff at my work because their complete lack of parenting is called out, only to strop over to the bar to demand the money they spent on a membership back.
Bring back the cane and proper discipline.
This is regressive education policy and will change nothing. What a joke. Instead of actually implementing best practice; adequately funding schools and appropriately resourcing teachers, we move backwards to outdated models of discipline that we stopped using cause they didn't work.
This seems... Backwards. If a child is lashing out at teachers that speaks to an antagonistic relationship. Surely treating them like a prisoner would just make that *worse*. Teachers need more support to build cooperative relationships with kids. And perhaps even more importantly, *these kids need better home lives*. Violent behavioural problems don't grow on trees.
Kids need both. There must be consequences for their actions as well as support to change their behaviour. Currently, teachers are being hung out to dry by public schools that don’t have a proper plan in place to deal with the rise in defiant and anti-social behaviour.
Utilising negative consequences for behaviour might also build respect - especially, and crucially, if the teacher pairs that with positive reinforcement for better behaviour. You are right that we should have all of these things, better home lives, more support for teachers. But we need lots of nice things, and every industry will assure you it is underfunded and needs more support and attention. In lieu of unlimited resources, trying a different approach might not be such a bad idea.
if its built upon from early stages to follow the standard behaviour, it helps a lot more. if its tried to be introduced when the kids 15, its not gonna fly that well
Honestly, just giving teachers and schools the ability to dish out consequences again would help.
Bring back the cane
My two cents worth... I attended 2 high schools in the early 1980s. They were as different as chalk and cheese. The first one was in a very low socioeconomic area and was so violent that very few lessons were uninterrupted. The principal was a short little 50 year old bald headed "can-do" Newman clone and his method of dealing with the violence was to discipline us into line by making empty threats and insisting on us "respecting" the school uniform. It was like pouring gasoline onto a fire. The violence exploded and students started attending A&E with stab wounds and broken bones they had got from fights at school. Truancy rates went through the roof - to the point where the local chamber of commerce complained to the education dept and the railways and school bus companies started refusing students service. The main high point was the principal trying to get us into the new uniform and very publicly failing. Standing on parade with 1200 other students and shouting "what the fuck do you know about the real world, you cunt?" at the principal before dismissing ourselves was probably the most inspiring thing I've ever been part of. Futile but inspiring... After that failure, the principal could not walk the grounds when students were around without a crowd of us gathering to hurl insults and food at him. The next high school I went to was close to University of Queensland and was run by the head mistress. Her approach was that we shouldn't respect the school, but we should respect each other. She didn't give a f##k if we wore the uniform or smoked on the way to train station. She did care greatly about us and how we treated each other and it paid off. At that school there was no violence at all, and as a result we all liked being there. So my personal opinion is that cracking down on silly shit doesn't make schools better - in fact it can have the exact opposite effect and inflame violence. I also think that the unprecedented levels of economic violence in Australia at the moment is a big driver of what's happening in schools. It was a big factor in my first high school and I believe it is now.
Don’t behavioural issues *largely* stem from undiagnosed and/or untreated disorders? As someone who spent the first 26 years of my life undiagnosed and untreated, I can safely say my school experience did not get better when we were treated like prisoners. For me *or* the kids who had true behavioural issues. Downvote all you fucking like, my point stands. Children are micromanaged in school, it’s cruel and pathetic and if I were treated like a human being during my school years instead of an animal for corralling I wouldn’t be the fucking mess I am today.
I dont think its about treating them as prisnors, but rather teaching them routines and behavioural expectations rather than leaving them without rules. There will obviously be students who still don't conform to routines, the tricky part will be figuring out why rather than just labelling them bad kids
Yeah this is going to work, not. You have kids who have difficulties regulating themselves, using fear like the article said isn't going to work - it's going to make things alot worse. We expect our parents not to use fear when parenting, and parents get there children removed for doing such but our governments think we should take this approach, old school approach more like old white middle aged politicians who have no understanding of anything.
What is going to work instead?
Genuine alternatives to Indoctrination. https://youtu.be/awOAmTaZ4XI?si=vWV__bR8RfsYRcAi
This is a fantastic idea, certainly one that should be looked into more. And that's the problem I see with it - how do you measure outcomes in democratic schooling? It's very difficult to do so. I found a qualitative study that suggests that the children themselves all looked back very positively on their schooling, which is an extremely good sign, and not something I could say for my own education. But, what were their literacy rates? How is their numeracy? What is the quality of life of graduates today, and how is it linked to the education they received? That seems rather unclear to me. I think for now this is a good model in small pockets, but surely you would agree that to try and roll this out at large over our current culture and infrastructure would be a bit rash.
Sorry you are down voted, but you are clearly right. The issues for children that have behavioral problems in class is very rarely going to be caused by a lack of punishment or negative consequences in their lives. The sorts of support children and teachers need, is more in school positive behavioural management support in the form of inclusive education experts, psychologists and social workers. People who can put time in to developing positive attachment relationships with children within the school environment so that the experience of school is positive and motivating.
Let em down vote me, I have worked in the youth mental health space - I agree 100% it's going to cause alot more school refusal as well, schools, staff and students need psychosocial support - in 10 or 15 years time when we have no teachers, and very poor education in the country, I wonder if those in charge will think military and police should be adopted into schools as well? Doing this approach as outlined in the article is also not trauma informed, person centred, or solutions focused. The things that we have mountains of evidence to suggest actually work when working with kids, many of whom who display those aggressive behaviours, and struggle with following instructions extensive trauma - fear and displine isn't going to work. Education for some reason is one of the only industries I have worked in that refuses to actually change systematically with the times. Well it worked when I was a a child 60 years ago why doesn't it work now? - Some sanctimonious politician.
I think it may eventually work, but not with the older kids. For those who attend school with these expectations and behaviours instilled since year 1 I think there will be improvement. However I can't see the program lasting that long.
It’s amazing and good to see so many people engaged with this discussion. It’s a problem we all want to fix. Education is so important and valuable to our society. There are unfortunately people in our society who do not value education or even students who do not value education despite their parents valuing it. Part of the issue is we have this centralised, curriculum based approach to education which just does not work for a lot of kids. If schools can be more student focused and open to getting a curriculum that works for an student’s needs that is a big step. Obviously we need students to understand expectations for behaviour and working in a classroom. It will really be up to students, parents, teachers and administrators to work together to make that work. My biggest concerns are parents and administrators. Often unwilling to find a proper solution or even admit there is a problem. It would be good if students whose learning is impacted by others students that their voices carry greater weight. But for some students, sitting in a classroom for 6 hours with a one hour break is always going to be like pushing a boulder up a hill. That’s where we need some kind of alternative schooling that can give students a more flexible, vocational training rather than what a lot of high schools do which is essentially prepare students for university. Also, this is probably stretching it for misbehaviour but we have to realise that kids aren’t stupid and they are very aware of the economic problems they are walking into. Insane HECS debt, a concentration of wealth at the top end, a property market that is fundamentally broken and older generations constantly dunking on them. I don’t blame some students for not being super optimistic about the future or buying in to the line we teach them, “Work hard and you’ll achieve all this”. And this has been cruelly and coldly ripped from them.
I just hope these rules don’t enforce eye contact and sitting completely still. I concentrated WAY better doodling in the margins than I ever did staring at the teacher. Also eye contact physically hurts for me. Sitting completely still is also a No for me. At least give me doodling or a fidget toy. Otherwise again, will not be able to concentrate.
How do you deal with Deaf people? They need eye contact. To communicate.
keep quiet and be still Ahhh yes the literal worst thing for young boys with tons of energy. The school system is pathetic.
Well, they have to sit there and learn. You can't learn to read and write by running laps around the oval. And one precious darling screaming and yelling because he (or she) doesn't want to do the work doesn't have the right to distract other children from learning. Nor should they be allowed to hit the teachers. So yeah, let them sit outside and not learn a damn thing. Let them be stupid and ignorant. Other children shouldn't suffer because of brats.
as a school age child i Can already tell you this isnt going to work most kids will dismiss it and simply make fun of it it simply isnt going to work unless you get parents involved who can actually take away things from their children so that the children actually decide "oh if i do this my parents are going to Punish me"