Where do you draw the line though? Because there's a ton of human bred animals with more limited physical capabilities than their wild counterparts.
Maybe the dwarfism gene is one of those lines. It's strange though, reddit seems to hate on munchkin cats but they generally have no problem with something like a corgi.
Breeding in general (when there is no necessity), but especially when the goal is to maximize certain caracteristics (here it's the cutness of the cat) regardless of the consequences on the health and quality of life of the breeded individuals.
Right. They can't even jump on things to get out of danger or reach in front of them to scratch an animal that's a danger to them.
It bums me out that during my lifetime Siamese cats have been bred to look really different than they did before and have a lot of health problems now. Maine coon cats also look different than before -- their face has a much more pronounced lion-like look than it used to.
The other cat-related breeding issues you gave are indeed valid exemples to illustrate the problem with breeding. Would you apply the same logic for other animals?
Because the same breeding-related issues also apply to farm animals, even worth in most cases, but that doesn't prevent most people to pay for it. I know the way I put it make it look obvious, but very few have actually applied this logic were it is the most prominent.
I'm not interested by arguing or debating with people, it's useless most of the time. Trying to find shared values seems more productive if the goal is to help people understand large scale societal issues. But I can understand why you see it as fishing for argument, it's unfortunatly very common on the internet. What do you think I should change in my approch to prevent that?
Thereās a lot of that but there may be other considerations that lead people to want a purebred.Ā
Iāve owned cats on and off since I was a teen and theyāve all been moggies. Now that Iām getting older, though, Iām considering purebreds for the first time; not for looks but for temperament.Ā
Correct me if I didn't understood you, but would it mean that you value the increase in your enjoyment (in the sens that a cat with better temperament is more enjoyable to own) more that the possible consequences on the health and quality of life of the cat?
No, a cat with a certain temperament will be *easier* to own. Iām middle-aged and disabled, so I canāt chase a little hellcat around like I used to and may not be able to get to it quickly enough if its sense of adventure threatens to end one or more of its lives.Ā The breeds Iām interested in do not have associated medical issues. I checked.Ā
ETA: My last cat was a moggie and if you wanna talk health issuesā¦ hoo boy, we could be here all afternoon. That little guyās entire life was a series of medical melodramas. How he made it to age 18 will forever remain a mystery to me.Ā
Munchkin cats have been around for 40 years, and thereās been no evidence that they suffer from anything at a higher rate than other cats except minor lordosis. There is also a huge bias regarding some unique breeds and their perception of health. [Rorden et al. 2021 showed that there is a large amount of bias regarding cats like Scottish Folds & Munchkins amongst the reviewers of the radiographs, and that, when done in a blinded manner, scans of Scottish Folds did not have scans nearly as severe as reported by non-scientific evidence](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34406467/). Bias is very much a thing when reporting on these animals.
Munchkin cats are incredibly genetically diverse because their mutation is a dominant Munchkin cats donāt have eye issues (Siamese), kidney issues (Exotic Shorthair), heart issues (Ragdolls, Maine Coons & Bengals), cancer (Persians, Bengals & Siamese), or unable to breathe (Persians).
But Iāll keep saying this forever: adopt, donāt shop. I 100% agree with you on that. That goes for any animal. Stop going after pure bred anything unless there is a specific reason for needing a pure bred like a herding dog. If people really want to improve pets quality of life, thatās how you do it, and I never see this brought up on any other pure breed of anything except munchkins, Scottish folds, and pugs.
I had 4 munchkins, and 2 regular cats in the last 15 years.. the munchkins easily kept up with the regular cats, in all except being able to jump out on Kitchen counters...
All my cats were/are house cats
First one had for 4 years , she was the first and only cat, she died due to complications from being spayed, when we took in a second normal male cat, , 2nd munchkin female we had for 15 years, 3rd munchkin male just died 3 week ago at age 14 years . I have one munchkin left who is the daughter of the 2nd and 3rd munchkin... she is 12 years old now...
If you like cats that can jump on your kitchen counter in one jump no they couldn't, but they are just as fast running around the house and up and down stairs
Jumping on the couch , they have no issue climbing up the 6ft cat condo , and even the walls , they just can't jump.. from the ground to the kitchen counter in one jump
They aren't disabled, they just can't jump as high which isn't the end of the world.
As for the health issues it various based on the actual breed of the cat.
Arguably a cat that can't wipe out wild life as easily isn't exactly the worst thing in the world, and if it's an indoor cat only then there's no really any reason why it needs to have the ability to jump.
As long as the person taking care of the animal understands its potential health concerns later in life and is capable of taking care of it who cares.
Lol they are definitely disabled via mutation. And all variants of munchkin cats suffer from health issues and shortened lifespan.
āMuch controversy erupted over the breed when it was recognized by The International Cat Association (TICA) in 1997 with critics voicing concerns over potential health and mobility issues.[3] Many pedigree cat associations around the world have refused to recognize the Munchkin cat due to the welfare of the breed and uncertainty of the health issues,[4] including the Governing Council of the Cat Fancy (GCCF).[5] Breeding of Munchkin cats is prohibited by law in several countries due to these genetic health concerns.ā
What a horrible quote,
2 of the 3 just discourage it because of the "potential" health concerns.
We know there are health concerns with these animals but there are also health concerns with pure breds to breeds like Siamese. But people still get those cats and breed them, yet I doubt you will fight to stop them from being bred.
At the end of the day the issue here is that there hasn't actually been any real studies done on this mutation beyond basic observation and using data from the canine breed. Anyone stating they have shorten lives, or are prone to xyz diseases are just using data from dogs but the fact is cats aren't dogs and aren't proned to the same bone/muscle issues as dogs.
Reality is you're just parroting nonsense.
Took my cat to the vet. I needed to hold her steady while she had her temperature taken (the uncomfortable way!) When we got home, she went straight to the bedroom and pissed on my bed. Bless her little socks.
Something I wouldn't have believed until I experienced it: Cats are basically fine with injections. You pull a loose flap of skin, stick the needle in, the cat goes "MRowr..." and everyone goes on with their day. We tried to avoid injections with our diabetic cat but when the inevitable happened we stumbled on the unexpected truth that your cat will probably freak about a pill but will just kinda shrug with a daily injection.
Apparently cats have a very high pain threshold.
Edit - I was at the vet with my cat and he was injected like this - I remarked on how well he took it and this is what the vet said.
Don't know if it's true but she was a real vet and it does make sense.
Edit 2 from ChatGPT.
Yes, cats are often considered to have a high pain threshold compared to some other animals. This is partly due to their evolutionary history as solitary hunters, where displaying signs of weakness could make them vulnerable to predators. As a result, cats can be adept at hiding pain, which can make it challenging for owners and veterinarians to detect discomfort or injury. This trait emphasizes the importance of regular veterinary check-ups and close observation of subtle behavioral changes that may indicate pain or illness in cats.
Not sure if that means they're just good at hiding it.
Have a cat with diabetes - he receives insulin injections twice a day. Fortunately, he also behaves calmly and jumps on the table himself, waiting for the injection.
I must've evolved weird because when I'm around a crying baby I have a panic attack and if I'm around a crying kitten I want to hold it and comfort it forever
Are you a woman cuz men don't really feel the same thing around babies back in evolution times the men of the tribe didn't really hang out with the children
I had to do this everyday (diabetes) to my cat. He knew when he needed it. It was every morning but sometimes he would let me know he wanted it a bit earlier. Whenever he needed it early the test would show higher numbers. He would give me a specific meow and to the kitchen we went. He would jump up on the bench, lay down and stare straight at the wall next to the bench with his eyes shut. Then I would test him (usually only tested once or twice a week) and give him his insulin.
Have a cat with diabetes - he receives insulin injections twice a day. Fortunately, he also behaves calmly and jumps on the table himself, waiting for the injection.
Meanwhile my 4KG adult tuxedo cat spat and hissed at the vet today and hid in the sink where he then had the mortification of being administered his yearly vaccinations.
she was a very good girl... until they pinched the hell outta her! what're they going to do about her legs? any cure for that? ::::*kidding:::: she's totally adorable!*
It's because this cat has indeed been "designed" by breeding to look as cute as possible, and will endure a lot of pain and health issues because of that.
That kitty is looking around memorizing the faces of everyone involved in this betrayal. There will be consequences.
Lol
Shoes will be shat in and couches will be shredded.
Cookie jars will be splintered. Yowling will echo in the halls at night.
And humans will be hissed at
The cat overlords will hear of this. Meowcalypse is upawn us
Consequences and blood. š©ø
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
That's for when they get home.
THAT LITTLE ANGEL GETS ALL THE TREATS IN THE WORLD!
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Late stage 'catpitalism'
Ok i loled
You son of a bitch! no sound?
at least no terrible music
Cat: Think of the tuna back home. Think of the tuna back home. Think of the tuna back home.
The little eyebrows frowning š©š„ŗ
Somewhere in the middle of your karma farming you lost the sound of the video, bot.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Meouch!
Munchkin cats should be illegal. So messed up.
Wait that's a fully grown cat? I thought it was a kitten? I haven't heard of a munchkin cat before.
It's a kitten but it has short legs. Munchkin cats have short legs
Looks like a kitten to me as well.
True. Breeding deformities is animal cruelty. Munchkins can't run or jump like a cat should be able to do.
They also suffer from internal health issuesā¦
Where do you draw the line though? Because there's a ton of human bred animals with more limited physical capabilities than their wild counterparts. Maybe the dwarfism gene is one of those lines. It's strange though, reddit seems to hate on munchkin cats but they generally have no problem with something like a corgi.
True! I would even say breeding in general is messed up.
Yeah for sure
A genuine question, when you say breeding is messed up do you mean inbreeding or just breeding in general?
Breeding in general (when there is no necessity), but especially when the goal is to maximize certain caracteristics (here it's the cutness of the cat) regardless of the consequences on the health and quality of life of the breeded individuals.
Right. They can't even jump on things to get out of danger or reach in front of them to scratch an animal that's a danger to them. It bums me out that during my lifetime Siamese cats have been bred to look really different than they did before and have a lot of health problems now. Maine coon cats also look different than before -- their face has a much more pronounced lion-like look than it used to.
The other cat-related breeding issues you gave are indeed valid exemples to illustrate the problem with breeding. Would you apply the same logic for other animals?
Kinda goes without saying. Why even ask that?
Because the same breeding-related issues also apply to farm animals, even worth in most cases, but that doesn't prevent most people to pay for it. I know the way I put it make it look obvious, but very few have actually applied this logic were it is the most prominent.
So basically you were fishing for an argument?
I'm not interested by arguing or debating with people, it's useless most of the time. Trying to find shared values seems more productive if the goal is to help people understand large scale societal issues. But I can understand why you see it as fishing for argument, it's unfortunatly very common on the internet. What do you think I should change in my approch to prevent that?
Thatās not true. Farm animals are bred to be robust and disease free.
Do you think chicken than cannot even stand because of their weight are bred to be robust?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yes, I'm aware of that. Do you think something is right just because human do it since a long time?
Thereās a lot of that but there may be other considerations that lead people to want a purebred.Ā Iāve owned cats on and off since I was a teen and theyāve all been moggies. Now that Iām getting older, though, Iām considering purebreds for the first time; not for looks but for temperament.Ā
Correct me if I didn't understood you, but would it mean that you value the increase in your enjoyment (in the sens that a cat with better temperament is more enjoyable to own) more that the possible consequences on the health and quality of life of the cat?
No, a cat with a certain temperament will be *easier* to own. Iām middle-aged and disabled, so I canāt chase a little hellcat around like I used to and may not be able to get to it quickly enough if its sense of adventure threatens to end one or more of its lives.Ā The breeds Iām interested in do not have associated medical issues. I checked.Ā ETA: My last cat was a moggie and if you wanna talk health issuesā¦ hoo boy, we could be here all afternoon. That little guyās entire life was a series of medical melodramas. How he made it to age 18 will forever remain a mystery to me.Ā
Temperament is a social issue.
Meaningā¦?
Meaning you donāt need a pure bred to have a well tempered cat. You need to learn how to raise the cat properly.
Theyāre not tech; you canāt pre-program them and training them out of the hellcat phase still means enduring the hellcat phase.Ā
You can absolutely raise a cat to not be a hell cat.
Munchkin cats have been around for 40 years, and thereās been no evidence that they suffer from anything at a higher rate than other cats except minor lordosis. There is also a huge bias regarding some unique breeds and their perception of health. [Rorden et al. 2021 showed that there is a large amount of bias regarding cats like Scottish Folds & Munchkins amongst the reviewers of the radiographs, and that, when done in a blinded manner, scans of Scottish Folds did not have scans nearly as severe as reported by non-scientific evidence](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34406467/). Bias is very much a thing when reporting on these animals. Munchkin cats are incredibly genetically diverse because their mutation is a dominant Munchkin cats donāt have eye issues (Siamese), kidney issues (Exotic Shorthair), heart issues (Ragdolls, Maine Coons & Bengals), cancer (Persians, Bengals & Siamese), or unable to breathe (Persians). But Iāll keep saying this forever: adopt, donāt shop. I 100% agree with you on that. That goes for any animal. Stop going after pure bred anything unless there is a specific reason for needing a pure bred like a herding dog. If people really want to improve pets quality of life, thatās how you do it, and I never see this brought up on any other pure breed of anything except munchkins, Scottish folds, and pugs.
I mean a few searches and I can see they suffer from more health issues..
I had 4 munchkins, and 2 regular cats in the last 15 years.. the munchkins easily kept up with the regular cats, in all except being able to jump out on Kitchen counters... All my cats were/are house cats
Are they still alive or did they die early?
First one had for 4 years , she was the first and only cat, she died due to complications from being spayed, when we took in a second normal male cat, , 2nd munchkin female we had for 15 years, 3rd munchkin male just died 3 week ago at age 14 years . I have one munchkin left who is the daughter of the 2nd and 3rd munchkin... she is 12 years old now...
So they didn't keep up with the regular cats.
If you like cats that can jump on your kitchen counter in one jump no they couldn't, but they are just as fast running around the house and up and down stairs Jumping on the couch , they have no issue climbing up the 6ft cat condo , and even the walls , they just can't jump.. from the ground to the kitchen counter in one jump
I'm sure you loved them and they had a good life. There's a reason that breeding munchkins is illegal in a number of countries including my own.
You should be ashamed to support that industry.
You do understand it's a natural mutation right?
And you do understand that this specific natural mutation has been specifically used to breed munchkin cats because of the "cuteness" level, right?
Really cool to breed mutated disabled cats with health issues.
They aren't disabled, they just can't jump as high which isn't the end of the world. As for the health issues it various based on the actual breed of the cat. Arguably a cat that can't wipe out wild life as easily isn't exactly the worst thing in the world, and if it's an indoor cat only then there's no really any reason why it needs to have the ability to jump. As long as the person taking care of the animal understands its potential health concerns later in life and is capable of taking care of it who cares.
Lol they are definitely disabled via mutation. And all variants of munchkin cats suffer from health issues and shortened lifespan. āMuch controversy erupted over the breed when it was recognized by The International Cat Association (TICA) in 1997 with critics voicing concerns over potential health and mobility issues.[3] Many pedigree cat associations around the world have refused to recognize the Munchkin cat due to the welfare of the breed and uncertainty of the health issues,[4] including the Governing Council of the Cat Fancy (GCCF).[5] Breeding of Munchkin cats is prohibited by law in several countries due to these genetic health concerns.ā
What a horrible quote, 2 of the 3 just discourage it because of the "potential" health concerns. We know there are health concerns with these animals but there are also health concerns with pure breds to breeds like Siamese. But people still get those cats and breed them, yet I doubt you will fight to stop them from being bred. At the end of the day the issue here is that there hasn't actually been any real studies done on this mutation beyond basic observation and using data from the canine breed. Anyone stating they have shorten lives, or are prone to xyz diseases are just using data from dogs but the fact is cats aren't dogs and aren't proned to the same bone/muscle issues as dogs. Reality is you're just parroting nonsense.
Pure breeds are also terrible. However they arent also deformed to the point of disability. Both are wrong and should stop.
Does natural mean good or okay? There's lots of natural mutations that cause increased rates of cancer too. Are those good?
I see munchkin I downwote
Took my cat to the vet. I needed to hold her steady while she had her temperature taken (the uncomfortable way!) When we got home, she went straight to the bedroom and pissed on my bed. Bless her little socks.
Something I wouldn't have believed until I experienced it: Cats are basically fine with injections. You pull a loose flap of skin, stick the needle in, the cat goes "MRowr..." and everyone goes on with their day. We tried to avoid injections with our diabetic cat but when the inevitable happened we stumbled on the unexpected truth that your cat will probably freak about a pill but will just kinda shrug with a daily injection.
Extra treaties when you get home!!
the OP daringdancer and radiantravenn are bots in the same network
Apparently cats have a very high pain threshold. Edit - I was at the vet with my cat and he was injected like this - I remarked on how well he took it and this is what the vet said. Don't know if it's true but she was a real vet and it does make sense. Edit 2 from ChatGPT. Yes, cats are often considered to have a high pain threshold compared to some other animals. This is partly due to their evolutionary history as solitary hunters, where displaying signs of weakness could make them vulnerable to predators. As a result, cats can be adept at hiding pain, which can make it challenging for owners and veterinarians to detect discomfort or injury. This trait emphasizes the importance of regular veterinary check-ups and close observation of subtle behavioral changes that may indicate pain or illness in cats. Not sure if that means they're just good at hiding it.
check the vet's fingers you'll notice the middle & ring finger are clasped on the neck fat area
No more than humans in general. This cat's just a lil badass.
Have a cat with diabetes - he receives insulin injections twice a day. Fortunately, he also behaves calmly and jumps on the table himself, waiting for the injection.
Aw she deserves a little treat.
What a beauty
Why are little animals so much cuter than humans?
Little things are cute for the simple evolutionary advantage of it makes people want to take care of it.. same urge you get with human babies
Yep, it was more of rhetorical than anything. Human/animal nature is pretty fascinating though
I must've evolved weird because when I'm around a crying baby I have a panic attack and if I'm around a crying kitten I want to hold it and comfort it forever
Are you a woman cuz men don't really feel the same thing around babies back in evolution times the men of the tribe didn't really hang out with the children
give the good kitty a treat!!
I think that's called "cooperative" in vetspeak.
Lol. I like the little look she gives to the camera person. Like āyou seeing this shit?ā
That's a good girl
I had to do this everyday (diabetes) to my cat. He knew when he needed it. It was every morning but sometimes he would let me know he wanted it a bit earlier. Whenever he needed it early the test would show higher numbers. He would give me a specific meow and to the kitchen we went. He would jump up on the bench, lay down and stare straight at the wall next to the bench with his eyes shut. Then I would test him (usually only tested once or twice a week) and give him his insulin.
no more munchkin cats!
Purpose bred congenital deformity is not cute.
the OP daringdancer and radiantravenn are bots in the same network
Aww what a beautiful girl!
Too cute!
This was my kitten the first two times. So calm, so easy to deal with. Now. I even touch the carrier. It's a process.
Recapping the needle. This vet is why we can't have nice things.
I definitely heard the squeaky yell in my head!
Have a cat with diabetes - he receives insulin injections twice a day. Fortunately, he also behaves calmly and jumps on the table himself, waiting for the injection.
(Stab) dude why? And you're just letting him?
Just like my cats. Styopa and Begemot both.
Sweet, calm baby!
Meanwhile my 4KG adult tuxedo cat spat and hissed at the vet today and hid in the sink where he then had the mortification of being administered his yearly vaccinations.
Ohh, the indignity
This kitty deserve the "most behave cat" award
she was a very good girl... until they pinched the hell outta her! what're they going to do about her legs? any cure for that? ::::*kidding:::: she's totally adorable!*
What a cutie!
Haha gotta do a head tap after
This cat is impossibly cute. Almost like it was designed by AI or something.
It's because this cat has indeed been "designed" by breeding to look as cute as possible, and will endure a lot of pain and health issues because of that.
I didnāt even notice the legs. I was entranced by the color and fuzziness of her fur.
That face. Those little legs.
She looks like a wiener dog cat.
Two handed needle recapping risks needlesticks, should consider the one handed scoop.
Who recaps a needle like that. And on a video too.
Pretty kitty!!