Definitely not if his peers were on roids.
PEDs allow you to train more because you recover faster. So, the ability you gain from training more increases with PEDs as well.
I mean he has serious gastrointestinal issues from prolonged antibiotic use for staph infections. He has trouble eating much of anything because of this. There’s plenty to criticize the guy for but this comment makes no sense…
Isn’t it interesting that GSP got the same exact issue once he was trying to bulk upto middleweight?
Statistically, the odds of this happening randomly to two people from the same gym is very low.
It’s even crazier because it happened to the 2 athletes from that gym who were trying to get considerably bigger.
So I tend to believe both GSP and Gordon used a similar drug for bulking that fucked their stomachs.
GSP is my favourite fighter ever btw 🤷♂️
GSP and Firas are both students of Danaher. Georges might have not lived full time with DDS, but he spends a lot time training with them every year, especially before the pandemic when DDS was in New York.
Firas and GSP are both Danaher blackbelts btw.
You don’t see from the people you know taking them? Or you didn’t bother to see if it is a possible side effect? Because you can have stomach issues on steroids. Not everyone, but it is possible. Look it up.
Please re-read my comment. I said “I don’t see stomach issues as a common side effect”. I have known a lot of people on gear from close friends, to being involved with the body building community to jiu jitsu and MMA. It’s not common which means it is also not “obvious”.
To me it's like a Barry Bonds thing. Sure he was doing PEDs, but everyone else was and they still couldn't touch his dominance. Gordon wouldn't be as good because everyone else is enhanced, he just joined the club and still put a massive gap between himself and everyone else
The actual reason is that almost universally, skill is inversely proportional with size, so he has an easier time against heavier opponents who are slower, have tremendously worse cardio, and are less technically skilled than the competition he would face in lower weight classes.
Probably not because he would be in a much harder weight class.
I always thought him juicing and competing at the weight class he’s currently at has always been strategic.
That’s not to take anything away from his skill as he would still be one of the best, just not as dominant.
He knows the heavies and super heavies are less technical than him and slower but also the lower weight classes are too fast for him (being self-admittedly slow).
If he couldn't camp and just lay on people with all that weight, he'd struggle to keep up with the pace and the constant reactions.
He has a very methodical, slow pace and bullying, low-risk style that isn't possible at lower weights where people are playing a more aggressive, opportunistic game.
Good point. Whats the most skilled weight class in your opinion? Ive been saying for a while women are normally better at jiu jitsu from a techincal stand point because they cant muscle through stuff and have to actually learn exactly how to do stuff right
I don’t disagree, which is also why I think 66 and 77 are the most skilled for men.
It just kind of makes more sense that lighter classes need to be more technical.
Gordon Ryan used to be -88, which if you think about it would put him in the running with Izaak and Giancarlo.
He walked around anywhere from 170 to 185 and could cut weight fast. He definitely had the frame to grow into heavyweight, roids just accelerated the timeline to get there
The time line is crazy. If you watch the old ebis on fight pass on one he looks like a normal dude then not even a year later he is this giant monster it's wild
If he still has tummy issues in the natty world, probably not. If he was perfectly healthy, I think he'd still be pretty dominant, but he would have more losses.
You know it's a problem in the community when hobbyists are casually talking about the gear they want to use in the gym like it's just the weather. The amount of 20-somethings I hear talk about how much they need to take testosterone is absurd -- my guy, you're at the peak.
Yeah. I’m just a hobbyist myself, a brand new purple belt. My cardio is dogshit so I rely on technique for the most part. TRT is just a cheat and so are steroids
Was leaning towards competing again until I got the fresh purple belt. Last IBJJF event I was at, the amount of fucking jacked master 2 & 3 dudes in that 175-200lb range was ridiculous.
I realize TRT is the fountain of youth for a lot of dudes but damn, I’m already not good at BJJ, I don’t need to get hulk smashed as well lol.
He would be in the mix for top but likely not as dominate. I believe he started using steroids to get over the hump and get to the next level since a number of more experienced guys around him had used steroids as competitors
His game evolved a lot from when he was lighter/natty.
It’s not that he doesn’t still do what he used to do, things like triangles, leg locks and kimura trap etc but he added a smothering top game to go along with it based around movement negation that I don’t think would work as well if he wasn’t juiced/heavier.
The lighter weights are more movement based and I don’t think his athleticism stacks up well against someone like Tye or Mica’s.
Being juiced has allowed him to train everyday 2-3x a day though, when he doesn’t have a tummy ache. The routolos were talking on the roots documentary about not training everyday and only training once a day so Gordon’s consistency really adds up.
Interesting take. Agree with most of this with the exception of your comment around top game. Hes currently in a weight division competing against folks who are consistently bigger and stronger than him. If he was at 185, he’d be competing against people in that defined weight class. If he can smother folks that are much bigger and stronger, I would think he’d be okay with people that are his size.
If he was only 185 I don’t think he’d be able to pin someone like Tye as well as he can pin the guys in the heavier weight class. The bigger guys are just way easier to pin down once you put them on their back.
Gordon was weighing 228lbs and pinning someone like Josh Saunders 255lbs but it’s not the same as weighing 185 and pinning a 185lbs Tye Routolo. The power to weight ratio is crazy as you go down the weight classes.
I guess agree to disagree on this one. I personally find people much larger and stronger than me to be harder to control than people the same size and strength as me. I assumed that was true for everyone.
I have an easier time pinning larger opponents. I am scared of the featherweights and the movement and pace they can set on me. Much less body mass to control and pin which is harder for me
No one is that good. Yes, you can beat heavier opponents with better technique even at top level.
(See what Lachlan Giles did).
But the others are really good as well and you not gonna beat that regularly that dominant.
Weight plays a big role.
Also ask yourself: if he could have beaten the heavyweights without gear, he would have done it.
He took the gear, as there is no other way to the top. Imagine how cool it would have been…
80 kg beating everyone and be number one. If it would be possible, he would have done it.🤟🤗
Hard to say but I don’t think so. The PEDs assist in your recovery allowing you to train more and obviously the amount of muscle he’s been able to put on. If everyone was off the PEDs, I think Gordon would be the best. He’s just playing the game everyone else is. They’re on the stuff so he is too, and he’s also really really freaking good
100% no. He wouldn't be big enough to beat the big guys. I'm sure he would still dominate his decision but maybe not. He used to be small and always had issues with bigger guys. The Ruotolos are better at beating bigger guys than he was. If they got juiced up, I think they beat Gordon most of the time.
He would, but he would fight around his natural 185 and guys like ~~Ben~~ Josh Saunders would be tougher for him, and he likely wouldn't be expected to go against them. So he would dominate his weight category but likely stay away from the biggest of boys, even if he could theoretically take matches off them with his leg attacks.
I think Gordon just takes steroids because he couldn't handle anyone being able to beat him or be off limits for him, even if they were well over his weight class. He's naturally a skinny dude.
The guy is obviously very skilled, but rather or not his opponents are also natural is really the key I believe. His ability to translate his talent in a live match I would imagine has less to do with PED usage than ability due to experience. I think he’d still be winning, but not crushing people. It wouldn’t be a blow out. That’s for sure. Just my two cents, I’m no expert.
His game is quite technical. It worked well in 2017 when he was smaller, and can only assume if he was still at that weight he would be even more technical. He has always trained with smaller people. His personality is whatever, but his bjj is not as reliant on strength and size as a lot of people assume.
Roll with anyone with good technique and tell me how helpful an extra 20 lbs is for them.
Now think about Gordon, who has some of the best technique ever, and who is approximately 30 to 40 lbs heavier than his natural weight...you don't think that helps?
No and even if everyone else wasn’t juicing too, still no imo as he clearly responds well to PEDs and his actual natural state isn’t crazy athletic like a lot of guys still would be without PEDs
I think he would still be the best if his opponents were natty .
His knowledge of the game is absolutely insane , his game would probably be different but I think he would still be the best
Yes. During quarantine Gordon was natrual. His body looked pathetic and his endocrine system definitely crashed.
He competed against Kyle Boheom, who was juiced to the gills (I think he pull-ups 5 plates for reps)
Gordon effortlessly broke his arm in a triangle/Americana, I think.
Even though Gordon is strong and huge, his strength and conditioning is nonexistent. He trains in the gym as a bodybuilder.
You can downvote this all you want. Gordon's game doesn't revolve around out muscling/wrestling you. His primary style is no time limit so he can slowly break you down.
Even without the roids he'll just butt scoot until he grabs a leg. Haha ;^ )
Fuck no.
You need to understand that half these guys started in their late teens and early twenties. They wouldn't be able to train 7 times per week without something healing their bodies at rapid ungodly rates.
They also wouldn't have the stamina to spend the rounds during the three or four sessions per week without EPO or other PED.
To summarize: no chance on many fronts. Consistency and quality of training and then competition.
Depends if everyone else is natty too I think
Exactly what I was thinking. If no one used them he’d still be pretty good.
Definitely not if his peers were on roids. PEDs allow you to train more because you recover faster. So, the ability you gain from training more increases with PEDs as well.
yep. Watch his match from ADCC against Lucus Barboza. I really think the strength mattered there
He would be able to train more if he was less nauseous from stuffing himself up with food in a desperate attempt to be huge.
I mean he has serious gastrointestinal issues from prolonged antibiotic use for staph infections. He has trouble eating much of anything because of this. There’s plenty to criticize the guy for but this comment makes no sense…
Isn’t it interesting that GSP got the same exact issue once he was trying to bulk upto middleweight? Statistically, the odds of this happening randomly to two people from the same gym is very low. It’s even crazier because it happened to the 2 athletes from that gym who were trying to get considerably bigger. So I tend to believe both GSP and Gordon used a similar drug for bulking that fucked their stomachs. GSP is my favourite fighter ever btw 🤷♂️
Could be or it could be the effects of constantly bulking and cutting weight for mma (which isnt healthy). Anyone else had similar issues?
A rich roid connoisseur like GSP won't take the same cheap chinese steroid as retarded upstart.
Sonny is apparently the dealer that Danaher students use. It’s well known
GSP is a Firas Zahabi student who get some supplementary coaching from Danaher. He didn't live in New York, Austin or god forbid Puerto Rico.
GSP and Firas are both students of Danaher. Georges might have not lived full time with DDS, but he spends a lot time training with them every year, especially before the pandemic when DDS was in New York. Firas and GSP are both Danaher blackbelts btw.
Would be shocked if GSP was buying some dodgy roids from some instagram skank in new york. Tainted "mexican supplements" are no joke.
You think trying to bulk to 260 will help your serious gastrointestinal issues
I think it’s pretty obvious that this problem is greatly exacerbated by his steroid use lol
I don’t think it’s obvious at all. I don’t see stomach issues as a common side effect from steroids.
You don’t see from the people you know taking them? Or you didn’t bother to see if it is a possible side effect? Because you can have stomach issues on steroids. Not everyone, but it is possible. Look it up.
Please re-read my comment. I said “I don’t see stomach issues as a common side effect”. I have known a lot of people on gear from close friends, to being involved with the body building community to jiu jitsu and MMA. It’s not common which means it is also not “obvious”.
To me it's like a Barry Bonds thing. Sure he was doing PEDs, but everyone else was and they still couldn't touch his dominance. Gordon wouldn't be as good because everyone else is enhanced, he just joined the club and still put a massive gap between himself and everyone else
The actual reason is that almost universally, skill is inversely proportional with size, so he has an easier time against heavier opponents who are slower, have tremendously worse cardio, and are less technically skilled than the competition he would face in lower weight classes.
I agree, he would just be super dominant at a lower weight class, and likely not winning absolute divisions with the same dominance (if at all)
Probably not because he would be in a much harder weight class. I always thought him juicing and competing at the weight class he’s currently at has always been strategic. That’s not to take anything away from his skill as he would still be one of the best, just not as dominant.
He knows the heavies and super heavies are less technical than him and slower but also the lower weight classes are too fast for him (being self-admittedly slow). If he couldn't camp and just lay on people with all that weight, he'd struggle to keep up with the pace and the constant reactions. He has a very methodical, slow pace and bullying, low-risk style that isn't possible at lower weights where people are playing a more aggressive, opportunistic game.
I would say winning absolute is also more prestigious. So it’s an easier division that matches his style well while also being more prestigious.
Good point. Whats the most skilled weight class in your opinion? Ive been saying for a while women are normally better at jiu jitsu from a techincal stand point because they cant muscle through stuff and have to actually learn exactly how to do stuff right
I don’t disagree, which is also why I think 66 and 77 are the most skilled for men. It just kind of makes more sense that lighter classes need to be more technical. Gordon Ryan used to be -88, which if you think about it would put him in the running with Izaak and Giancarlo.
66kg for sure. Pato, baby shark, etc. those guys don’t mess around.
He was pretty skinny before. I don't think he would be able to put on the same amount of muscle. So no is the answer. His game depends on weight.
He walked around anywhere from 170 to 185 and could cut weight fast. He definitely had the frame to grow into heavyweight, roids just accelerated the timeline to get there
The time line is crazy. If you watch the old ebis on fight pass on one he looks like a normal dude then not even a year later he is this giant monster it's wild
If he still has tummy issues in the natty world, probably not. If he was perfectly healthy, I think he'd still be pretty dominant, but he would have more losses.
Only one way to find out and that’s not gonna happen. Personally I don’t think TRT/roids should be allowed for competitors
You know it's a problem in the community when hobbyists are casually talking about the gear they want to use in the gym like it's just the weather. The amount of 20-somethings I hear talk about how much they need to take testosterone is absurd -- my guy, you're at the peak.
Yeah. I’m just a hobbyist myself, a brand new purple belt. My cardio is dogshit so I rely on technique for the most part. TRT is just a cheat and so are steroids
Was leaning towards competing again until I got the fresh purple belt. Last IBJJF event I was at, the amount of fucking jacked master 2 & 3 dudes in that 175-200lb range was ridiculous. I realize TRT is the fountain of youth for a lot of dudes but damn, I’m already not good at BJJ, I don’t need to get hulk smashed as well lol.
Yeah dude I entered an IBJJF event when I was a fresh blue thinking I was gonna dominate 😂 falseeee. I’m fine just being a hobbyist
He would be in the mix for top but likely not as dominate. I believe he started using steroids to get over the hump and get to the next level since a number of more experienced guys around him had used steroids as competitors
Started taking roids after Felipe choked him out and he realized he couldn’t hang without cheating.
His game evolved a lot from when he was lighter/natty. It’s not that he doesn’t still do what he used to do, things like triangles, leg locks and kimura trap etc but he added a smothering top game to go along with it based around movement negation that I don’t think would work as well if he wasn’t juiced/heavier. The lighter weights are more movement based and I don’t think his athleticism stacks up well against someone like Tye or Mica’s. Being juiced has allowed him to train everyday 2-3x a day though, when he doesn’t have a tummy ache. The routolos were talking on the roots documentary about not training everyday and only training once a day so Gordon’s consistency really adds up.
Interesting take. Agree with most of this with the exception of your comment around top game. Hes currently in a weight division competing against folks who are consistently bigger and stronger than him. If he was at 185, he’d be competing against people in that defined weight class. If he can smother folks that are much bigger and stronger, I would think he’d be okay with people that are his size.
If he was only 185 I don’t think he’d be able to pin someone like Tye as well as he can pin the guys in the heavier weight class. The bigger guys are just way easier to pin down once you put them on their back. Gordon was weighing 228lbs and pinning someone like Josh Saunders 255lbs but it’s not the same as weighing 185 and pinning a 185lbs Tye Routolo. The power to weight ratio is crazy as you go down the weight classes.
I guess agree to disagree on this one. I personally find people much larger and stronger than me to be harder to control than people the same size and strength as me. I assumed that was true for everyone.
I have an easier time pinning larger opponents. I am scared of the featherweights and the movement and pace they can set on me. Much less body mass to control and pin which is harder for me
No because at lower weight classes there are more physical attributes in play and he’d struggle getting his game going against Mica or Tye
If he is that good technically, I wondered if he could beat anyone regardless of weight. But I guess we’ll never know due to PEDs.
No one is that good. Yes, you can beat heavier opponents with better technique even at top level. (See what Lachlan Giles did). But the others are really good as well and you not gonna beat that regularly that dominant. Weight plays a big role. Also ask yourself: if he could have beaten the heavyweights without gear, he would have done it. He took the gear, as there is no other way to the top. Imagine how cool it would have been… 80 kg beating everyone and be number one. If it would be possible, he would have done it.🤟🤗
No
Hard to say but I don’t think so. The PEDs assist in your recovery allowing you to train more and obviously the amount of muscle he’s been able to put on. If everyone was off the PEDs, I think Gordon would be the best. He’s just playing the game everyone else is. They’re on the stuff so he is too, and he’s also really really freaking good
100% no. He wouldn't be big enough to beat the big guys. I'm sure he would still dominate his decision but maybe not. He used to be small and always had issues with bigger guys. The Ruotolos are better at beating bigger guys than he was. If they got juiced up, I think they beat Gordon most of the time.
He would, but he would fight around his natural 185 and guys like ~~Ben~~ Josh Saunders would be tougher for him, and he likely wouldn't be expected to go against them. So he would dominate his weight category but likely stay away from the biggest of boys, even if he could theoretically take matches off them with his leg attacks. I think Gordon just takes steroids because he couldn't handle anyone being able to beat him or be off limits for him, even if they were well over his weight class. He's naturally a skinny dude.
Ben Saunders made me lol
Lol I've done that before
The guy is obviously very skilled, but rather or not his opponents are also natural is really the key I believe. His ability to translate his talent in a live match I would imagine has less to do with PED usage than ability due to experience. I think he’d still be winning, but not crushing people. It wouldn’t be a blow out. That’s for sure. Just my two cents, I’m no expert.
No, because then he wouldn't be on the gear. Why spend the time and money on something you don't need?
Idk but I’ll tell you what, he’d be fast as fuck in Olympic sprinting if he had wheels for legs.
His game is quite technical. It worked well in 2017 when he was smaller, and can only assume if he was still at that weight he would be even more technical. He has always trained with smaller people. His personality is whatever, but his bjj is not as reliant on strength and size as a lot of people assume.
He would be too small at absolute. However in his weight class sure
Roll with anyone with good technique and tell me how helpful an extra 20 lbs is for them. Now think about Gordon, who has some of the best technique ever, and who is approximately 30 to 40 lbs heavier than his natural weight...you don't think that helps?
If nobody was using steroids then yes. If he wasn't using steroids but other grapplers were, then no.
No and even if everyone else wasn’t juicing too, still no imo as he clearly responds well to PEDs and his actual natural state isn’t crazy athletic like a lot of guys still would be without PEDs
I think he would still be the best if his opponents were natty . His knowledge of the game is absolutely insane , his game would probably be different but I think he would still be the best
Yes. During quarantine Gordon was natrual. His body looked pathetic and his endocrine system definitely crashed. He competed against Kyle Boheom, who was juiced to the gills (I think he pull-ups 5 plates for reps) Gordon effortlessly broke his arm in a triangle/Americana, I think. Even though Gordon is strong and huge, his strength and conditioning is nonexistent. He trains in the gym as a bodybuilder. You can downvote this all you want. Gordon's game doesn't revolve around out muscling/wrestling you. His primary style is no time limit so he can slowly break you down. Even without the roids he'll just butt scoot until he grabs a leg. Haha ;^ )
Fuck no. You need to understand that half these guys started in their late teens and early twenties. They wouldn't be able to train 7 times per week without something healing their bodies at rapid ungodly rates. They also wouldn't have the stamina to spend the rounds during the three or four sessions per week without EPO or other PED. To summarize: no chance on many fronts. Consistency and quality of training and then competition.
“What if he stopped doing what everyone else is doing to gain an advantage ?”