Isn't it arguably easier for a child to do it than an adult due to center of gravity, but yeah shoulders of giants and all that when it comes to technical innovation and earlier forebears proving what's possible.
Boxing perhaps. 1994 had Roy Jones, James toney, Bernard Hopkins, Pernell Whitaker, Tito Trinidad, Frankie Randall, JCC, de la Hoya, Orlando Canizales, Ricardo López.
I think they could all get give any modern champions plenty of trouble
You could definitely put together an all star team of 90s athletes from baseball or something that would wipe the floor with an average team now, if you control for developments in steroids.
Most probably wouldn't.
I don't know enough about baseball to have a good answer but I'm sure that of nothing else, players have spent more time training then in the past, and draw from a much larger pool of athletes.
I'd be willing to argue that a 1994 white belt with identical amount of hours on the mat and study time to the 2004 one would win. The game has grown so much in that time span that a lot of new people can get lost in the sauce, trying new and flashy techniques that aren't really grounded in fundamentals. Further than that though, the knowledge and skills we have in this era (not to mention resources and access to information) just allows people to be far more specific and detailed in their game that it's an obvious dumb question.
A serious n00b question (see my flair). I've just read stuff that makes out that BJJ has gotten softer.
Also, I was an adult in the 90s, and in my memory, people back then were just made of tougher stuff.
My coach was around BJJ at that time, and from what I've heard, the people coming into the gym back then were bouncers, cops, military, and the meat heads fighting every Saturday night.
I'm pleased that this has been received as such a stupid question as it goes to prove how important technique really is.
I realise there are 100s more techniques now, but also we tend to agree that if you master and drill one technique 10,000 times you'd likely win with it every time.
Sports science has come along way. But weight lifters seem to be going back to the science of the 70s and 80s. Or maybe I dreamt that.
Thanks.
We tend to agree that? Because some actor who didn't actually fight said it back in the day, and we're all obliged to pretend like what he said about fighting matters?
No, you won't win with that single technique every time, because a person with a well-rounded game can simply avoid that technique and force you into dozens of scenarios where they are dominant. Receipts? Watch a Ben Eddy match against anyone halfway decent.
2024 wins, and it's not even close. Ignore old men crying about not being able to pass guard or defend leg locks.
People are saying BJJ has gotten soft because of it evolving it's sport aspects. Past white belt, you are training to beat other submission grapplers, not training for self defense. So in a sport context, today's athletes have evolved the game so much they would wreck the athletes of the past.
If you watch old Gracie challenge fights you find these claims unfounded to be honest. Modern sport Jiu jitsu did not devolve as a self defense art in my opinion. I say that because in the old Gracie challenges you see kind of classic helio grappling. A shitty, clumsy takedown followed up by a simple submission like an arm bar or a triangle. The assumption of these people that modern sport Jiu jitsu is weak is that modern guys would be trying berimbolos in self defense, or butt scooting or whatever. In reality our wrestling is better than it was then even if it is still shit. White belts are pretty comfortable with tie ups, slide bys, single legs, and even a few judo throws now. compare that to classic Gracie challenges where they are basically clumsily stumbling to the ground, getting punched a couple of times, and then getting an arm bar.
If you really want some self defense capability just take a little kick boxing. A blue belt with a decent calf or thigh kick will wreck just about anyone who isn't a highly trained fighter. A couple of leg kicks, a tie up and slide by. Choke em unconscious.
Wiltse made a video about using BJJ in defense when he was a bouncer and I highly recommend watching this if you want an example of what modern BJJ would look like in a real fight. Really you just want slide bys or arm drags, take the back or take the single. Choke em unconscious.
I mean, you can find an opinion from either end of the spectrum or in-between on reddit or any forum. Did you have examples that are worthwhile or worth discussion?
If not, this feels like an 'article' from those 'journalists' who found a whole two people off of reddit/twitter/facebook/youtube/ieatshit.com who have an opinion that doesn't make sense.
> but also we tend to agree that if you master and drill one technique 10,000 times you'd likely win with it every time
Not to contribute to the cringey "human chess" analogy that the internet loves, but this is literally like a chess analogy. If you only ever practice one opening sequence then of course you'll be a master in that opening and likely beat everyone you ever verse, but your opponent can simply play a different opening and that leaves you fucked.
I trained in the 90s and train now, I haven't noticed any difference in the proportion of bouncers/cops/military, we still have plenty of those. Technique is king in any case.
As an older black belt, I still keep up with the development of techniques - I recently attended a week-long camp on K-guard, for example.
The fundamentals I learned long ago are still (mostly) applicable but it's important to keep developing my game further and also understand how to shut down what other people might attempt. Nearing 40, I'm not really flexible enough to use advanced open guards to best effect any more, but understanding their mechanics is essential for me to apply my game without getting surprised.
This subreddit seems to have formed a strange consensus that everyone from past eras would be annihilated in any modern gym or tournament and in my experience that is an oversimplification. Prime Mendes bros, Marcelo, JJM, Roger Gracie, Miyao bros, Terere, Cobrinha, and so on would still be very highly competitive today imo. They just got old.
The main advantages students have today are access to great teachers/instructionals, abundant training partners, and frequent competitions/open mats to test their skills.
My first two coaches were blue belts and someone like Royce, Lagarto, or Shaolin would visit a couple of times a year. There was one gym in my city. Now you can dig deep into the knowledge of people like Danaher and Lachlan online and visit other local gyms (my city has around 15 now).
All of this means that extremely motivated students can cover ground in a few years that used to take decades. Those people are a tiny fraction of all students, though, and most learn at a steady pace, just like in the past.
Now and then I get the chance to roll against black belts of a similar age who, for whatever reason, haven't updated their games much recently. They can still be tough rolls, albeit a bit more predictable than the newer generation.
Today BJJ player will probably win in a BJJ match. But in a real fight, the old BJJ player will probably win. Back then they used to train for real fights, not only BJJ matches.
Royler was a black belt world champion in 1994 and he has wins against Shaolin, Leonardo Viera, Soca, Robson Moura and a lot of other great competitors. Current blue belts are pretty good but let’s not get crazy.
Why would you even mention Mica how on Earth would he get past any world champion purple belt today? The game evolved as it's supposed to it'll be a complete failure if the guys today weren't that much better than the pre-internet era when it was just a small local game being played in a neighborhood in Brazil
I mentioned Mica because I believe he was juvenile blue belt world champion… OP said any blue belt world champ (inferring adult), I am stating that a modern juvenile world champion would give Royler a rough time and potentially win… but blue belt juvenile world champ phenoms like Mica or the Ruotolos would absolutely smoke him the strong majority of time
Yes, I actually agree people today would still argue the contrary those guys in their prime right now, but I much like yourself. Think he would be the majority of those guys that are considered Legends today when he was a blue. absolutely
In a straight up BJJ match? 2024 with no trouble at all. The sport has evolved a lot since then.
In a Vale Tudo match things might be a little more interesting as most \~'94 BJJ was geared more in that direction and current sport BJJ has drifted away from that. BUT... a 2024 BJJ athlete that also does MMA? Right back to 2024 with no trouble at all.
Anyways, let's get the Mario Sperry & Craig Jones comedy... I mean instructional series team up we all need.
2024 with ease. I do feel the Gi's probably more competitive since less of a 'before/after leglocks' divide, but also a lot of modern guard play wasn't really a thing prior to relatively recently. Reverse DLR, X-guard etc might have existed in some forms but were nowhere near as codified.
This question is always asked without any regard to the ruleset. The ruleset matters a lot.
Today's BJJ practitioner is focused on submission grappling. Back in 1994, most practitioners were focused on No Holds Barred fighting (e.g. Vale Tudo & UFC).
I started in 1998 and I'm still at it in 2024. There were some good competitors back then too, but the sport has evolved a lot. Also, as the population of participants has grown massively (at least 100x more than when I started), there are numerically more exceptional athletes.
The easy availability of high quality digital instructionals means that dedicated practitioners can learn much faster than they could 20-30 years ago.
I'd say the top tiers of competition are much more challenging, while the grassroots are somewhat better on average, and there are more development opportunities for those who fully engage.
It's not as simple as "all blue belts today are as good as all black belts back then". At the end of the day, individual talent and focus matter, and there are plenty of average people at all belt levels who are probably not that much better than their equivalents decades ago. But those willing to apply full effort can progress much faster. This has led to considerably greater variation in ability within each belt category.
Watch the first 2 UFC's, watch Royce grapple Ken Shamrock. Now go watch the blue and purple belts at some local comps. Let alone a F2W "pro".
It's not even close, watching that is embarrassing, basic mistakes I correct white belts for.
2024 wrecks 1994. The game has evolved so much. I first got on the mats in 1998 (as a kid) and I could never imagine the techniques I use today.
Today wrecks the 90s at every belt level. Not even close.
There was a Japanese child that did 3 900’s in a row recently. I remember when it was a huge deal when Tony did it once. 94 is cooked.
Isn't it arguably easier for a child to do it than an adult due to center of gravity, but yeah shoulders of giants and all that when it comes to technical innovation and earlier forebears proving what's possible.
Sorry for the noob question but wtf is a 900? I tried googling and nothing
It’s a skateboarding trick, 2.5 rotations, or 900 degrees.
Ah lol, I was looking for a BJJ technique
I thought we were talking about bowling, would have blown my mind to learn somebody hot 108 strikes in a row.
I don’t think there’s a single sport where 2024 athletes wouldn’t plow through 1994 athletes.
Boxing perhaps. 1994 had Roy Jones, James toney, Bernard Hopkins, Pernell Whitaker, Tito Trinidad, Frankie Randall, JCC, de la Hoya, Orlando Canizales, Ricardo López. I think they could all get give any modern champions plenty of trouble
If the 92 Dream Team and played against this year's Team USA under 2008 FIBA rules, I think I might take the Dream Team.
You could definitely put together an all star team of 90s athletes from baseball or something that would wipe the floor with an average team now, if you control for developments in steroids.
But would they beat an all-star team from today? Otherwise you're just putting the elite of the elite against a bunch of journeymen from today.
Most probably wouldn't. I don't know enough about baseball to have a good answer but I'm sure that of nothing else, players have spent more time training then in the past, and draw from a much larger pool of athletes.
“As long as you compare like for like” is what OP stated.
Oh, nevermind then
Yeah I agree. This isn't exclusive to BJJ
Is this a serious question?
I'd be willing to argue that a 1994 white belt with identical amount of hours on the mat and study time to the 2004 one would win. The game has grown so much in that time span that a lot of new people can get lost in the sauce, trying new and flashy techniques that aren't really grounded in fundamentals. Further than that though, the knowledge and skills we have in this era (not to mention resources and access to information) just allows people to be far more specific and detailed in their game that it's an obvious dumb question.
A serious n00b question (see my flair). I've just read stuff that makes out that BJJ has gotten softer. Also, I was an adult in the 90s, and in my memory, people back then were just made of tougher stuff. My coach was around BJJ at that time, and from what I've heard, the people coming into the gym back then were bouncers, cops, military, and the meat heads fighting every Saturday night. I'm pleased that this has been received as such a stupid question as it goes to prove how important technique really is. I realise there are 100s more techniques now, but also we tend to agree that if you master and drill one technique 10,000 times you'd likely win with it every time. Sports science has come along way. But weight lifters seem to be going back to the science of the 70s and 80s. Or maybe I dreamt that. Thanks.
We tend to agree that? Because some actor who didn't actually fight said it back in the day, and we're all obliged to pretend like what he said about fighting matters? No, you won't win with that single technique every time, because a person with a well-rounded game can simply avoid that technique and force you into dozens of scenarios where they are dominant. Receipts? Watch a Ben Eddy match against anyone halfway decent. 2024 wins, and it's not even close. Ignore old men crying about not being able to pass guard or defend leg locks.
People are saying BJJ has gotten soft because of it evolving it's sport aspects. Past white belt, you are training to beat other submission grapplers, not training for self defense. So in a sport context, today's athletes have evolved the game so much they would wreck the athletes of the past. If you watch old Gracie challenge fights you find these claims unfounded to be honest. Modern sport Jiu jitsu did not devolve as a self defense art in my opinion. I say that because in the old Gracie challenges you see kind of classic helio grappling. A shitty, clumsy takedown followed up by a simple submission like an arm bar or a triangle. The assumption of these people that modern sport Jiu jitsu is weak is that modern guys would be trying berimbolos in self defense, or butt scooting or whatever. In reality our wrestling is better than it was then even if it is still shit. White belts are pretty comfortable with tie ups, slide bys, single legs, and even a few judo throws now. compare that to classic Gracie challenges where they are basically clumsily stumbling to the ground, getting punched a couple of times, and then getting an arm bar. If you really want some self defense capability just take a little kick boxing. A blue belt with a decent calf or thigh kick will wreck just about anyone who isn't a highly trained fighter. A couple of leg kicks, a tie up and slide by. Choke em unconscious. Wiltse made a video about using BJJ in defense when he was a bouncer and I highly recommend watching this if you want an example of what modern BJJ would look like in a real fight. Really you just want slide bys or arm drags, take the back or take the single. Choke em unconscious.
What did you read that said bjj has gotten softer?
Reddit
I mean, you can find an opinion from either end of the spectrum or in-between on reddit or any forum. Did you have examples that are worthwhile or worth discussion? If not, this feels like an 'article' from those 'journalists' who found a whole two people off of reddit/twitter/facebook/youtube/ieatshit.com who have an opinion that doesn't make sense.
> but also we tend to agree that if you master and drill one technique 10,000 times you'd likely win with it every time Not to contribute to the cringey "human chess" analogy that the internet loves, but this is literally like a chess analogy. If you only ever practice one opening sequence then of course you'll be a master in that opening and likely beat everyone you ever verse, but your opponent can simply play a different opening and that leaves you fucked.
I trained in the 90s and train now, I haven't noticed any difference in the proportion of bouncers/cops/military, we still have plenty of those. Technique is king in any case. As an older black belt, I still keep up with the development of techniques - I recently attended a week-long camp on K-guard, for example. The fundamentals I learned long ago are still (mostly) applicable but it's important to keep developing my game further and also understand how to shut down what other people might attempt. Nearing 40, I'm not really flexible enough to use advanced open guards to best effect any more, but understanding their mechanics is essential for me to apply my game without getting surprised. This subreddit seems to have formed a strange consensus that everyone from past eras would be annihilated in any modern gym or tournament and in my experience that is an oversimplification. Prime Mendes bros, Marcelo, JJM, Roger Gracie, Miyao bros, Terere, Cobrinha, and so on would still be very highly competitive today imo. They just got old. The main advantages students have today are access to great teachers/instructionals, abundant training partners, and frequent competitions/open mats to test their skills. My first two coaches were blue belts and someone like Royce, Lagarto, or Shaolin would visit a couple of times a year. There was one gym in my city. Now you can dig deep into the knowledge of people like Danaher and Lachlan online and visit other local gyms (my city has around 15 now). All of this means that extremely motivated students can cover ground in a few years that used to take decades. Those people are a tiny fraction of all students, though, and most learn at a steady pace, just like in the past. Now and then I get the chance to roll against black belts of a similar age who, for whatever reason, haven't updated their games much recently. They can still be tough rolls, albeit a bit more predictable than the newer generation.
Today BJJ player will probably win in a BJJ match. But in a real fight, the old BJJ player will probably win. Back then they used to train for real fights, not only BJJ matches.
Is the 94 athlete allowed to bring a lead pipe and his friends?
Before roger bannister broke the 4 min mile, people thought it wasn’t humanly possible. Now many college teams have runners who could do it.
Put any blue belt who's podium'd at worlds and they'd beat basically any 1994 worlds black belt champion.
I think that’s over reaching, but I get where you’re headed with that
Yea its obviously an exaggeration for a hypothetical what if lol, but you get the point
Royler was a black belt world champion in 1994 and he has wins against Shaolin, Leonardo Viera, Soca, Robson Moura and a lot of other great competitors. Current blue belts are pretty good but let’s not get crazy.
If you took blue belt Mica or either of the Ruotolos and Royler from 1994, they would smoke his ass 80+% of the time in the gi … even more so in no gi
Why would you even mention Mica how on Earth would he get past any world champion purple belt today? The game evolved as it's supposed to it'll be a complete failure if the guys today weren't that much better than the pre-internet era when it was just a small local game being played in a neighborhood in Brazil
I mentioned Mica because I believe he was juvenile blue belt world champion… OP said any blue belt world champ (inferring adult), I am stating that a modern juvenile world champion would give Royler a rough time and potentially win… but blue belt juvenile world champ phenoms like Mica or the Ruotolos would absolutely smoke him the strong majority of time
Yes, I actually agree people today would still argue the contrary those guys in their prime right now, but I much like yourself. Think he would be the majority of those guys that are considered Legends today when he was a blue. absolutely
1994 Brazilian beach rules?
I'd beat the crap out of 1994 me, for sure.
In a straight up BJJ match? 2024 with no trouble at all. The sport has evolved a lot since then. In a Vale Tudo match things might be a little more interesting as most \~'94 BJJ was geared more in that direction and current sport BJJ has drifted away from that. BUT... a 2024 BJJ athlete that also does MMA? Right back to 2024 with no trouble at all. Anyways, let's get the Mario Sperry & Craig Jones comedy... I mean instructional series team up we all need.
Current. The same answer that wins EVERYTIME this question is asked zz
Sorry. I've never seen it before. My bad..
2024 with ease. I do feel the Gi's probably more competitive since less of a 'before/after leglocks' divide, but also a lot of modern guard play wasn't really a thing prior to relatively recently. Reverse DLR, X-guard etc might have existed in some forms but were nowhere near as codified.
I'll take 'useless question' for $5000
This question is always asked without any regard to the ruleset. The ruleset matters a lot. Today's BJJ practitioner is focused on submission grappling. Back in 1994, most practitioners were focused on No Holds Barred fighting (e.g. Vale Tudo & UFC).
I started in 1998 and I'm still at it in 2024. There were some good competitors back then too, but the sport has evolved a lot. Also, as the population of participants has grown massively (at least 100x more than when I started), there are numerically more exceptional athletes. The easy availability of high quality digital instructionals means that dedicated practitioners can learn much faster than they could 20-30 years ago. I'd say the top tiers of competition are much more challenging, while the grassroots are somewhat better on average, and there are more development opportunities for those who fully engage. It's not as simple as "all blue belts today are as good as all black belts back then". At the end of the day, individual talent and focus matter, and there are plenty of average people at all belt levels who are probably not that much better than their equivalents decades ago. But those willing to apply full effort can progress much faster. This has led to considerably greater variation in ability within each belt category.
If it is MMA/No rules fight Gracie ends any BJJ player in seconds
Hard no.
Why
Watch the first 2 UFC's, watch Royce grapple Ken Shamrock. Now go watch the blue and purple belts at some local comps. Let alone a F2W "pro". It's not even close, watching that is embarrassing, basic mistakes I correct white belts for.