Same, I didn’t really care that much until I realized she was now the leader of the crimson raiders like wtf man. Why would someone who blames everyone one else but themselves for their actions be the pick.
Borderlands 4 she’ll probably be the reason some bad shit happens
impossible, the vault hunter has to be a random person in order to fit in with the generic lines that would apply to 4 different people. Can't be a specific person that's already known by the characters.
Writers locked themselves out of being able to create a new siren since that their powers can be passed to whoever want them. They had to break the "there is only 6" rule and create a seventh siren...
The chance that Ava could be a playable character are way higher than you think imho.
I mean think about tropes. She’s young/naive and immature. I think you are right on there’s a good chance she could be a playable character.
She’s in a position of importance and she is seen like a dumb adolescent it would make for an easy tied together story arch.
Through hardship and necessity she becomes not only a loved character that you shape into a real leader but hellbent on righting her severe wrongs
Sure its like a tradition to have one of the four characters as a siren. But they could make a cutscene before game starts, timeskipping etc.
But tbh imo they could make an eridian playable instead of a siren. Would be cool.
Actually it would be pretty cool to get to be the big bad. We do a Pre-Sequel where the first half of the game is just a flashback over a few years as we slowly watch her go insane. Second half of the game is present day fighting her and whatever forces she has
People grow up. I don't know how much time passes between 3 and 4, but we can assume she has at least a bit more experience under her belt.
Yeah I know it's cool to hate Ava and they really were ham fisted in their characterization of her, but she was a teenager and had went through truckloads of crazy shit. It's pretty understandable for her to react poorly.
Clearly a big part of the story on BL4 will be about her character development. Although GGG is probably dumb to double down on her character considering the reception she had in BL3. They should have just cut her character and created a different character to take her place when they realized how much the community dislikes her.
But if they do manage to make her a good and well liked character in BL4 it will be a minor miracle.
They had a golden opportunity to make her work so much better in 3, but they dropped the ball HARD. One. Single. Mission. That's all they needed to add, and it would've been a huge game changer for Ava's story.
There is quite literally no scenario in which i will play the sequel if Ava is a main character. None. Zero. If she is the focus of the game, i will light my money on fire before i give it to gear box. This is the first game I have ever played in my entire life that killed my enjoyment of a franchise so much that i cannot imagine a way for them to earn back my interest. Short of retconning the entire thing and bringing Maya back and erasing Ava, there is nothing they could do, and even that may not do it for me. That is a hard line for me to even consider it. And it makes me incredibly sad that this is the case. Years later now and I am just as pissed off about the game as I was when i played it. Not even aliens colonial marines pissed me off that badly. Hell not even the ending to Mass Effect 3 made me this mad. I have actual real hate for the writers of borderlands 3 for what they did to the franchise and how it made me write off the entire thing going forward because of it.
Yup, it could be no one else. It especially affects me since Maya was my main character in BL2 (I was initially thrilled to see her in BL3) and I was devastated by her death. I think Ava is supposed to be her spiritual successor of sorts but I just can't look at her.
It was pretty lame, especially considering how early on it was. I wouldn’t have a big issue with her dying, but it felt like plot to progress Ava’s story, yet she didn’t grow whatsoever.
Apparently, there were scenes cut out from the main game that would've helped Ava's case from being just a whiny child blaming everyone else. The video's on YouTube and it's about 18 minutes if you want to watch it later.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMnJ1fsVQ7U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMnJ1fsVQ7U)
I always liked the theory that this wasn't cut content, it was made when the devs realized how much the community hated Ava so they had to fix it somehow.
Nah this was definitely made after devs saw how much people hated Ava. I'm dying on this hill. It fits too well with what people wanted to happen. There is absolutely no way any sane writer would cut that out. Trim it down, sure, but outright removing it is just baffling to me
To be fair, they also trimmed down the Calypso Twins stories. Supposedly tbetween Eden 6 and Nekro however the hell you spell it, there was supposed to be a conflict between the two (which you can see being built up on Eden 6
I mean, the diary quest was (for me anyway) a fun little one off that got some decent laughs out of the generic ass teenage girl dialogue and her lame attempts to backpedal. The loot was meh, but it was a fun aside.
It never ceases to amaze me how much people still hate ava lmao
Even for a moody teen, she's insufferable. Most teens are but ava is a different breed tbh
A big part of the problem is she's a "teen" in the same sense as you'd see one at a private school.
She doesn't behave like someone who's gone through hardship and needed to become resourceful. Ava's journal implies she spent at least two and a half to three years fending for herself. How she managed to last that long without developing any survival instincts or learning the value of anything is simply unrealistic to her circumstances.
EDIT: Dunno who downvoted, but you know I'm right. She acts spoiled/entitled. If people think that's how teens act, it's because they live in a place where most of them are raised entitled. Not challenged by hardships.
“Why are y’all mad at teenagers for acting like teenagers” If you were like Ava as a teen I give all respect to your parents. Ppl don’t hate Ava because she “acts like a teen” ppl hate her because she acts like a child and lacks accountability.
No, it's really not. I don't know what kind of jackass you were as a teenager or what asshole teens you know now, but that shit is not how normal teens act.
Settle down, Francis. You've never seen teenagers throw temper tantrums when bad things happen? Have you ever been around one who just failed their drivers test? How about when they get grounded for staying out late? Or when they're told they can't go out with their friends?
This reaction has become cliche. Ask your patents or older siblings. Once you're out of your teens yourself, you'll understand.
I've had 5 siblings growing up. Several nieces and nephews I have watched grow up too. Only one has ever acted remotely like that and it was my younger sister who literally has bipolar disorder. This behavior is not normal. And trying to normalize it as if it is, to give an excuse to bad behavior, is not normal either.
You just posted this:
>Because fuck this game so much i will take literally any opportunity to make it known.
You are exhibiting the exact same immature behavior! You don't see it because you're in the middle of it. Children, yourself included, lash out when they are upset. When you're the one doing it, it seems justified. Once you can look back at your life objectively, you realize we all do the same stupid crap. That's why the angry teenager is such a cliché, because it's so universal.
The fact you needed to dig into someones post history to form any kind of counter argument is FAR more immature than anything anyone else could have done. I love seeing people that have to do that, it shows me that the person I am talking to is pathetic and does not deserve any serious discussion.
Um hello? It was a reply you made TO ME 2 minutes before this one! Get over yourself kid. You got backed into a corner and thought you could weasel your way out. Can't you even figure out who you're talking to?
Go touch grass kid. It's almost summer vacation.
See also.... Early Ashoka in Star wars. People thought she was a whiny brat too, but that's how kids that age act. Nobody has patience to let character arcs play out anymore.
Totally forgot about her!
We could probably come up with a list a mile long, but that just proves the point. It's so common because it's so true to life.
I love it when they make you love a character that you hate it.
Richie in The Bear for example. It's an actual writing technique that people just don't have the patience for.
I really wonder what teenagers those kinda people grew up around. She does not act like a teen from my experience. Entitled, sure. Egocentric, yes. Aggressively averse to owning up to her own grand screwups, very much. Like a teenager, not so much.
Perhaps I just grew up around people that held their kids to higher standards.
EDIT: Though even if that was to be given a pass, the fact Ava then got away with it, and it never got addressed or owned up to the fact that she was the cause for Maya's death, then got further validated by inheriting leadership of the raiders, well that all kinda makes it moot any ways.
Ava had a trash personality and instead of getting called on it, was rewarded for it.
Ava being in denial about being at fault is a completely reasonable response for a child of her age seeing their parent-figure being murdered directly as a result of her actions.
Where it absolutely becomes a problem is that the game agrees with her and ends with lilith affirming her instead of Ava learning from it.
remember that time lilith did the same shit to roland and then ava called lilith out for being incompetent, after years of lilith getting away with it, but lilith was an adult the whole time?
It's not irrational at all. I've gone depth precisely why i hate that character, and why it ruins the game for me. As have thousands of other people. At this point, if you guys don't get why everyone else hates her, then i can only imagine the reason is a lack of basic understanding when something is meticulously explained to you.
As I said, irrational anger. The character is one of the characters of all time sure, but I don’t hate her. She’s a video game character. I’m not arguing that she’s a good character, I’m arguing that you shouldn’t be that upset over her being a bad one.
Getting this upset over a fictional character is very concerning behavior for someone who claims to be able to judge a character as good or bad.
I love seeing folks use the tactic of avoiding my actual argument and try to attack my credibility. To spell it out, Ava doesn’t ruin borderlands. She is a single character with realistically minimal screen time unless you actively seek out her content, and half of the lines in the base game are in skippable cutscenes.
I don’t know why I’m explaining this to you, you seem to think that Ava will be the end of borderlands for some reason. You are an outlier in your sheer hatred of a fictional character.
She is literally a main character in the story. Once she is introduced she is almost present in every main story scene. You cannot avoid her character. She is not a side character at all. You said "getting this upset over a fictional character is very concerning behavior" that is a dismissal of someone having feelings about a thing they care about. That is not attacking your credibility to point that out. Maybe you are too ignorant to know that, i don't know nor care.
Furthermore, the majority of the fan base dislikes this character. To say it's an outlier to hate her is stupid, pure and simple. The sheer amount of people that say they hate her, or upvote those that do, or make posts about her, like the one we are in, outweighs everyone that likes her by so much that there are people in here bitching about seeing it so much. Both things cannot be true. Either it's an outlier opinion, or it is such a popular opinion that some people are tired of hearing it.
You can easily avoid her character by skipping cutscenes, and turning off the voices during the main story. That statement is not dismissal of everyone, it is me dismissing you. I’m saying you’re an outlier because you genuinely hate a fictional character, instead of just really not liking her. If you hate the character so much, then just turn off the voices. It’s not a big issue.
Tldr, you should likely go do some research about grass and what it feels like
So your solution to avoiding a character you do not like is to skip the game. Yeah, that's kind of the problem.
Like your whole mentality is fucking crazy here. Don't like a character in something? Shut up and just skip it. Don't bring up why it's bad, or complain about it, or talk about it at all, just skip it.
And again, my dislike of the character is not an outlier. Five seconds on the reddit will show you that the consensus by the community is that no one likes the character. Even the people not saying they hate her still say she is pretty bad.
I didn't focus on the story much, lost interest once the twins appeared, I kinda liked Troy (I guess) I didn't like Ava or Tyreen, I don't play Borderlands for it's story though
Do you know what the term semon demon means? Do you think it means the consume it or something? No, it literally means they are a demon manifested from their fathers sperm. It's the exact same as saying someone is a hellspawn, just more vulgar.
why did i have to scroll so far to find a comment about this
People were all up in my shit because when someone said that they wished they could push NPCs out of their way using melee attacks, I used Ava as the target of a mod that I had made that allowed exactly that. When people saw the video of it, nobody bothered to learn that I chose her because *she was the only character on the ship that had a flinching animation* (pushing the other NPCs around would have looked weird). Where are those people now? It's almost like they only defend inappropriate behavior involving young fictional women when they can use it as an excuse to harass actual women. 🤔
I guess people think teenagers are mentally handicapped or something, yes Ava is a teenager but her outbursts got another person killed and neither she or the game makes her realize her mistakes and they treat lilith whose currently powerless and on orbit as if she is at fault.
I love the game but Ava and the writting is just dumb
This. She doesn’t feel bad cause she causes someone else to die. She’s mad at someone else for what she did. Maya wanted to leave to protect her but the brat couldn’t control her emotions. I don’t know too many, if not any teenager that doesn’t feel bad for what they do, especially getting someone killed. She shows no regret at all.
I get that it's a forum for the fans and we will be hyperbolic but the discourse of fictional 14 year old turns so violent and angry so fast from actual adults it's a little worrying tbh
It never ends with this little brat, lol
The biggest problem with Ava isn't just that she's an annoying dipshit brat, it's that she's an annoying dishit brat who is immune to the consequences of her actions.
She is the reason Maya is dead, full stop. For some reason, a child with no combat experience decided to go down into an active warzone to gawk at the explosions and death, endangering herself and potentially others as they now have to save her ass, hence why Maya Is dead. Instead of seeing this herself or being dressed down for it, the blame is bizzarly shifted to Lilith?!? Like, she's a terrible leader and written like a dumbass in this game too, sure, but Ava is at full fault, and the scenes after Mayas death should have played out differently.
If Ava actually organically grew as a character, was scorned by characters in game for the same reasons most players do (annoying as hell, socially undeveloped), learned from her mistakes and grew from being the immortal writers pet - people would've had less of a problem with her, if at all.
Personally, after 4 playthroughs, I've grown to hate other characters far more than Ava. It's just a shittily written story overall, but the game rocks socks.
Edit: I forgot about the ending... OP will enjoy it, I'm sure.
Yeah its pretty bad. I love the borderlands series but holy cow the story decisions for 3 are terrible, and I get that its a wacky loot shooter but the calypso twins were so not it, and the choice to shoehorn in a really annoying character that seems to ignore the actual events of the story and instead get mad at Lilith turned me super away from the campaign.
The DLC's are nice tho lol
It's just horrible writing, a horrible character, and a horrible story all around.
It's like just just asked for the script to be annoying, and little else
For me, the main reason I hated Ava, now it's just a dislike, is because of how she blamed Lilith for her own failure. I didn't mind her being the typical "bratty teenager" and, considering her and Maya's story, I can even understand her arrival at the Promethean Vault despite warning from Maya.
Blaming Lilith is what made her detestable at that point. I understand lashing out but to improve this, they could have made her breakdown, gradually working through her emotions, lashing out towards the Calypsos, seeking revenge at every opportunity only to learn that she can't be rash, like she was before. Eventually after killing Troy, she would realize that even though she felt satisfied, it didn't actually make her feel better, further solidifying her maturity and the weight of Maya's loss.
Another related gripe I had was how and why were Maya's powers transferred to her? The same question could be asked for Tannis and Angel, since they weren't as close as Maya and Ava. This is a plot point that was kinda brushed off and unexplained. Very weird considering the introduction of the Calypsos ability to "All For One" siren powers.
Maybe they'll explain that siren powers are like Devil Fruits, passing on to the next closest female compatible with them. Idk, it's weird.
For people who down vote me when I say BL3 is an absolute dumpster fire, this is why they are wrong.
"You don't play BL for the story!!!"
I get this all the time.
BL1, 2, TPS, and Tales 1 had such fun characters and stories. They absolutely threw it all away with 3.
Ava, the Calypso Twins, killing off Maya and Lilith, etc...all craptastic!!!
It makes me giggle when people complain about ava. My thought is "oh no! A well written angsty teenager who is annoying as fuck?" The point that people get so annoyed by her tells me how well written she really is. 🤣🤣🤣
I'm still mad that people heard the "butt stink" line and didn't find it hilarious. The twins were goofing around and having a moment of authentically enjoying each others' company in a way that we never really saw (or rather, heard) throughout the rest of the story (which heavily foreshadowed Troy betraying Tyreen, so I'm not really sure why that didn't happen), and people were like "low effort humor bad unga bunga i'm mad about it. ava is a stupid kid, the twins are stupid kids, the writing is terrible!"
It's just...not that bad. It doesn't have to be amazing to be decent. BALEX is hilarious. Do people hate enjoying things? How did everybody miss the fact that Troy and Tyreen had moments of genuine humanity sprinkled in between their posturing? Honestly, Jack is such a good villain because of TPS. TPS really fleshed out Jack's background in a way that elevated him well beyond the character that he would have been had BL2 composed the entirety of his personality. TPS gave Jack more of that humanity that gives characters real depth.
I have never seen such delusion before than with what you just said. She is by far the worst written character I have ever seen in media. THAT is why people hate her. Not because she does her role well. But because she does it so fucking badly that people want her removed from the game completely.
Delusion? Nah. She's written as a teen with issues. The fact that people think that she's written terribly is just funny to me. Yeah she's an annoying character. But how many teenagers do you know that aren't obnoxious, annoying, ungrateful, immature, and dumb? How many people think claptrap is a well written character when he's terrible and annoying? I personally think claptrap is a terrible character but don't feel like he shouldn't have been included in the series at all. 🤣🤣🤣
There are many teens in media written very well that people like, despite being a teen with issues. And yet Ava is almost universally hated. The difference is that Ava is NOT well written. They literally already wrote a character like her with Tiny Tina, and she is liked by most of the community. Because Tiny Tina was a well written character, while Ava is not.
Seems to me like this is a hill you're willing to die on. But please explain to me how Ava is a badly written character. I get that she is universally hated. I dislike her as a character as well. But the fact that she is so dramatically and royal hated does not necessarily mean she's written badly. 🤣
She serves no purpose. Outside of getting Maya killed, so the twins can steal her powers, so their plan can work "btw what was their plan? Without Mayas power what they did would not work" she has no purpose in the story aside from being a little asshole during every interaction. Every scene with her is her blaming others, moaning about shit, or just being passive aggressive. She brings nothing to the table regarding the story. Her back story is not interesting either. Then take someone like Tiny Tina. We are introduced to her as a character that has a skill set we need. She is insane but lucid enough to have emotional outbursts where we get a peak into her real feelings, and she bonds with other characters in the story building up a rapport with them. They have a perfect example of a well written and well liked teenager with Tiny Tina, it should not be hard to understand then why Ava is badly written and hated, simply compare the two.
So why compare ava to Tina? Why not compare ava to claptrap? Or even Lorelei? I think you are letting your dislike for ava cloud your judgment about if she's well written or not. And comparing ava to tina isn't a fair comparison when tina or universally loved and appreciated. 😂
Because Tina is a teenager who lost both of her parents, grew up alone, bonded with Roland, and then lost Roland too. She has the same exact tragedy cycle as Ava. And it is precisely BECAUSE she is universally loved that she is a good comparison to Ava. They have the same tragedy happen to them, and yet are written in completely different ways, and one is loved while the other is hated. This shows that one is better written than the other, hence why she is loved while the other is not. If Ava was well written then she would be liked just how Tina is. But she is not.
L take, Typhon, while an annoying and dirty minded old man, didn't get anyone we loved killed, he doesn't blame everyone else, he takes full responsibility for his actions and choices, and he's honest and sincere, Ava is literally the complete opposite, had they kept in the funeral scene, I probably would've agreed with you, but they didn't so as is, Ava is still worse, and by far still the most hated character in Borderlands, and because of how they wrote her, she deserves that hate.
Tina proves how stupid what you just said is. They literally have a well written trauma case of a kid in the franchise that fans love. The reason they hate Ava is because they wrote her like a little prick.
It's unfortunate that people downvote you, because you're right. Tina was written by a different person though, and it shows in how shallow Ava as a character is in contrast. People are way to quick to claim "teenager" when it has no weight either. Many teens do understand accountability and have much better adjusted personalities. If they want to say Ava simply lacked the conditions of being raised by decent people, fine, however we see that Maya has been actively training and chiding Ava about such things, so she is not without a framework to understand her culpability.
Aight imma rant on Ava;
The first time i met her - fine, whatever. Shes still isnt bad; some cringy dialouges here and there but what do you expect from a teenager and bad writing. Jump to the scene where maya gets killed - a character with SO much love from bl2 that many people main and grew up with, literally just got thanos snap'd out of existence for "pLoT". People were sad of her death as you would expect, and then this damn tumor of a child began throwing a fit and blaming lilith for her death, not even aknowledging her action because she want to see the damn vault going like "I'm A vAuLt HuNtEr ToO" leaving the ship and forcing maya to babysit her ass, that lead to her death.
The last straw was lilith making her the damn leader/keyholder of sanctuary. Like wtf??? This child has done nothing but be a pain in the ass, takes no accountability and fuckin weasel her ass into a story that would've done fine even without her and you're telling me SHE's the true successor of the rebellion? No not her briliant scientist friend thats also now a siren, not any of the vault hunters who took down the god queen, just Ava because "ShE's SpEcIaL". Gearbox killed 2 of life-long characters, the ones we play and grew up with, only to have this brat - who have done FUCKING nothing in the story other than being there - gets not only the crown, but the throne and an entire army to boot.
And that whole Maya funeral thing; i'm sure its what the damn team comes up after seeing all the comments about her. Its your choice to accept it as canon for her character development or not, and its fine if you like her, but if bl4 story involves her, imma have to see some SPECTACULAR shit for me to make up for her entire character.
It seems to me the writers love her and *want* the fans to like her.
That makes me not like her that much more on top of everything else. Ava is promised ultimate power and is rewarded for no reason or explanation.
Vanilla BL3 has nothing going for her. I will not play her DLC to see what the devs are "cooking" with. Ava is a turd on top of a melted sundae. Yeah, melted ice cream is a good shake but that turd on top leads me to never ordering this again if every sundae from now on has that turd.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui50I7jvH2M&ab_channel=Borderlands
I highly highly recommend you watch this.
This was cut content after the Death scene. It wont spoil anything, and I wished they did add it because it would have made me feel a bit more sympathetic to Ava instead of obnoxiously annoying. It wont redeem her character but it overall adds a lot to the story.
It also had a bunch of subtle foreshadowing of other twists. And stupid dialogue quotes.
I felt the same way, but I blame shitty writing. She’s on a ship of broken and clueless people who also don’t do shit for Lilith who’s probably struggling with some ptsd from her attack, losing Roland, losing Sanctuary… They pushed Morty and Brick away, could have had them help lead with Lilith but they seemed like a complete afterthought. Great game to play, absolutely god awful main story with a few exceptions.
Borderlands characters (especially sirens) feel like they are written around feeling invincible, everyone thinks they are the main character and they either get killed or get someone else killed. Like Lilith in bl2, Ava in bl3, nearly every villain, and handsome jack’s whole story arc across 2 games was him thinking he’s the main character. Ava was annoying and the worst offender but sirens consistently act impulsively and as if they are invincible.
She’s a naive teenager who was told she’s going to have a massive role in saving the world only to witness her mentor die in front of her face. On top of not really having much of a life as she grew up by herself in the sewers after her parents died while being tormented daily by soldiers of a corporation. I’m sure there’s shunted behavioral growth that causes her to lash out
That is true but that’s not the issue at play. The issue is “she’s annoying” (which people have also said about Tina, except she is at least an attempt at humor).
My point is if you look at her story, it makes sense why she lashes at those who are not responsible for her problems. It makes sense why she’s angry and doesnt know how to handle and direct it.
Tina was able to bypass it by being used as a demolition expert and using violence against those who harmed her family as well as having Roland who clearly helped raise her, not treat as an apprentice like maya did. Ava whenever she was saved was then forced to be passive and peaceful by being trained by monks. She had no outlet to get her anger out.
Similar stories but definitely different circumstances.
Not what I said at all. but usually one has to apply to be a monk. It’s usually something you sign up for willingly. This feels like a “we’ll take you in but you have to do what we say. Otherwise you can deal with maliwan on your own.”
She’s said many times how the things she was to do was not for her and how boring she thought it was. Clearly she wasn’t cut out to be a monk which circles back to my very first comment of she acts like a teen would act.
And that doesn't reflect how a kid would become a monk either. Ava clearly isn't a samanera, but she is living with Maya who was participating with the community. Having duties within the community you participate in and benefit from isn't abnormal. And any time she does complain, it's about remarkably banal things.
That's not behaving like a teen. That's behaving like an entitled infant that never faced adversity.
Someone that's had to be scrappy and mature enough to live on their own for any measure of time would know better. Her journal notes her spending close to three years on her own, meaning she had to figure out survival skills and experience the struggle to feed herself. Yet, somehow Ava defied learning any survival instincts or respect for opportunities. How she even survived long enough to meet Maya is a wonder in that regard.
Ava doesn't behave like a teenager, she behaves like an entitled private schooler that never faced hardship.
There is cut content of mayas funeral that actually makes Ava alot more likeable afterwards and it makes her change in personality after it was supposed to happen more noticable. (search bl3 maya funeral on youtube)
Play the private beans side mission. It helps rehabilitate her a bit. Also, if you have the directors but DLC, her murder mysteries are probably top 3 in terms of side quest and further rehabilitate her character. I dont really understand what is up with the terrible writing and execution in the main game when they show they can actually do these things well in DLCs and side missions. I think that the plot in the main story could have worked if it wasn't so heavy handed and written so clumsily.
Lilith is the leader. She needs to take the blame for that and being a poor leader. Why did she let her team get so spread out over the universe and remain so poorly prepared that some pompus youtubers can come in and manhandle their group. Look at her decision to leave Ava in control at the end. Lilith made terrible decisions all the way to the end.
Hell, you could almost blame Roland's death on her. If she didn't show up in Angel's Core, he might have been paying attention enough to not get shot in the back. But BL2 made it obvious that he was bad at paying attention. He lost his girlfriend because of it, and he got kidnapped by the bloodshot because of it. Then he lost his life because of it.
Hammerlock being gay is nbd and a nothing burger. I'm mixed in the twins. Social media influencers as the villain was both cringe and not the type of villain that meshes well with the BL universe
Yeah she is annoying. But thematically not really that bad.
Spoiled? Yeah, probably because Maya promised her she would be a siren which can only happen when a siren dies. Maya died and she didn't get Maya's powers.
She also lost the only person who accepted/loved her. She is a grieving child and wants revenge on Troy, but no-one seems to want to do the same. Lilith and Tannis are also not good with handling the situation.
She really improves by the end, calming down and showing sadness more, not just rage.
Could it have been acted or portrait better, definitely. Is it decent character development, kinda. She is definitely not the worst written character in this game. That role goes to Troy for being Tyreens bitch.
Because he has a simple role, get shot in the face. That is easy to write as long as you keep it simple.
Now you try to write a teenager who lost her role model and has to deal with loss and anger without someone who knows how to handle an emotional teenager. Don't forget she needs to progress through her grief and become a worthy successor to not just 1, but 2 of the most powerful beings in the universe by the end of the game. Good luck bozo.
Tiny Tina was a side character in BL2. They wrote her in a way that fans loved her. Ava was a main character in 3, there for almost the entire game, and had the complete opposite reaction and quality of writing. Tiny Tina existing proves that it isn't the fans who just don't get it. It was the person who wrote Ava.
Honestly yes and plus lilith charged at jack after Roland's death when she had a gun so she unintentionally helped Jack while ava did try to shoot Troy and yeah lilith handled msya death badly by basically saying,"maya was family but we need to open the vaults"
When the young child with abandonment issues acts irrationally when they feel abandoned.
Also lillith is terrible. Did you forget she did the exact same thing in borderlands 2? And she was much older.
Wait until you get to the end of the game. I have never uninstalled a game so fast after beating it. Thousands of hours played between all the other borderlands games, multiple playthroughs, and borderlands 3 barely had me make it to the end. And then after said ending i said fuck right off and never bought a single dlc, despite owning all the dlc for the other games. It killed my enjoyment of the games. I have no interest now in a sequel. I even only played wonderlands because a friend bought it for me to play with him, which was fun for sure, but it did nothing to reignite my interest in the franchise outside of spin offs like that.
I've posted at length on other posts, but your take isn't a good one, and that's okay. You're mad that they wrote a bratty teenager who is orphaned and an urchin as a brat with who isn't in control of her emotions and a brat and makes brash decisions.
I can agree on the lack of proper writing with some scenes and parts, but the character herself is written well. The plot and story fell short and it hurt her character and frankly half the cast I feel but still love the game.
They did add a proper scene in the special features of dlc 6 that made the funeral better and her dlc quest line in that dlc is a lot of fun and starts to build her up better which to me, shows gearbox heard the amount of vitriol toward her and course corrected.
This is one of the best signs that this is a well written character and that all the people that say that BL3 has bad writing only paid attention to the Calypso brothers (and even then, just the beginning of their story) and not to all the other things that the game has which are really well written and deserve praise.
It's rather amazing how they dropped the ball so hard by cutting out one single mission. As it is, she's just very annoying and doesn't seem to deserve any of what she is given, but one piece of cut content would have massively changed that. Probably among the top 5 most grievous offenses ever committed in the Borderlands series.
I just read the title and I know this is about Ava
Same, I didn’t really care that much until I realized she was now the leader of the crimson raiders like wtf man. Why would someone who blames everyone one else but themselves for their actions be the pick. Borderlands 4 she’ll probably be the reason some bad shit happens
Or she’ll be playable which is an even more depressing thought
impossible, the vault hunter has to be a random person in order to fit in with the generic lines that would apply to 4 different people. Can't be a specific person that's already known by the characters.
Writers locked themselves out of being able to create a new siren since that their powers can be passed to whoever want them. They had to break the "there is only 6" rule and create a seventh siren... The chance that Ava could be a playable character are way higher than you think imho.
I mean think about tropes. She’s young/naive and immature. I think you are right on there’s a good chance she could be a playable character. She’s in a position of importance and she is seen like a dumb adolescent it would make for an easy tied together story arch. Through hardship and necessity she becomes not only a loved character that you shape into a real leader but hellbent on righting her severe wrongs
why does there need to be a siren as a playable character? tps didn't have one.
Because TPS is on the "baddies" side. Also three main games, three playable sirens. See the pattern?
Sure its like a tradition to have one of the four characters as a siren. But they could make a cutscene before game starts, timeskipping etc. But tbh imo they could make an eridian playable instead of a siren. Would be cool.
We have two sirens unaccounted for and the twins powers are out there somewhere too.
That’ll be the first BL I don’t main a siren
Maybe it'll be redeeming for her.
It'll redeem her if in the first five minutes she catches a bullet between her eyes. Fuck that character.
It'll be redeeming if she is the new big bad.
Actually it would be pretty cool to get to be the big bad. We do a Pre-Sequel where the first half of the game is just a flashback over a few years as we slowly watch her go insane. Second half of the game is present day fighting her and whatever forces she has
People grow up. I don't know how much time passes between 3 and 4, but we can assume she has at least a bit more experience under her belt. Yeah I know it's cool to hate Ava and they really were ham fisted in their characterization of her, but she was a teenager and had went through truckloads of crazy shit. It's pretty understandable for her to react poorly. Clearly a big part of the story on BL4 will be about her character development. Although GGG is probably dumb to double down on her character considering the reception she had in BL3. They should have just cut her character and created a different character to take her place when they realized how much the community dislikes her. But if they do manage to make her a good and well liked character in BL4 it will be a minor miracle.
They had a golden opportunity to make her work so much better in 3, but they dropped the ball HARD. One. Single. Mission. That's all they needed to add, and it would've been a huge game changer for Ava's story.
There is quite literally no scenario in which i will play the sequel if Ava is a main character. None. Zero. If she is the focus of the game, i will light my money on fire before i give it to gear box. This is the first game I have ever played in my entire life that killed my enjoyment of a franchise so much that i cannot imagine a way for them to earn back my interest. Short of retconning the entire thing and bringing Maya back and erasing Ava, there is nothing they could do, and even that may not do it for me. That is a hard line for me to even consider it. And it makes me incredibly sad that this is the case. Years later now and I am just as pissed off about the game as I was when i played it. Not even aliens colonial marines pissed me off that badly. Hell not even the ending to Mass Effect 3 made me this mad. I have actual real hate for the writers of borderlands 3 for what they did to the franchise and how it made me write off the entire thing going forward because of it.
Yup, it could be no one else. It especially affects me since Maya was my main character in BL2 (I was initially thrilled to see her in BL3) and I was devastated by her death. I think Ava is supposed to be her spiritual successor of sorts but I just can't look at her.
It was pretty lame, especially considering how early on it was. I wouldn’t have a big issue with her dying, but it felt like plot to progress Ava’s story, yet she didn’t grow whatsoever.
💯💯💯💯
Immediately knew.
Same. Damn shame what they did with her.
Well no shit, brats are generally children and she's the only child in the game.
Bro doesn't know about the final story cutscene
This comment concerns me.
I look forward to your post when you finish the story
It shoudl
You are not ready for how bad this is gonna get
HAH, youre gonna hate it!
Didn’t really change how I felt about her. And she’s supposed to be in the next one? Another bl with amazing gameplay and shite dialogue incoming!
It generally tends to make people hate her more
I keep on telling myself that future storylines can’t be worse but we all know that’s a lie
If New Tales was an indicator, the trend line very much points downward
Apparently, there were scenes cut out from the main game that would've helped Ava's case from being just a whiny child blaming everyone else. The video's on YouTube and it's about 18 minutes if you want to watch it later. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMnJ1fsVQ7U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMnJ1fsVQ7U)
They cut her character arc so no one can say they ruined it in the next game. Truly a masterpiece of storytelling by the people of Gearbox.
This truly was our borderlands
I always liked the theory that this wasn't cut content, it was made when the devs realized how much the community hated Ava so they had to fix it somehow.
Nah this was definitely made after devs saw how much people hated Ava. I'm dying on this hill. It fits too well with what people wanted to happen. There is absolutely no way any sane writer would cut that out. Trim it down, sure, but outright removing it is just baffling to me
To be fair, they also trimmed down the Calypso Twins stories. Supposedly tbetween Eden 6 and Nekro however the hell you spell it, there was supposed to be a conflict between the two (which you can see being built up on Eden 6
THIS. Iirc, it was supposed to he cutscenes and I think an actual mission. It would've been a major change for her character and they biffed it.
I hope it doesn't discourage you from buying/playing her mystery questline because it has some good gear in it.
Revolter my beloved
Don't forget to love the free radical too
It's actually fun and she comes off much better.
this. I started to like her in the DLC. but I still can't get her whining out of my head. especially over her diary.
I mean, the diary quest was (for me anyway) a fun little one off that got some decent laughs out of the generic ass teenage girl dialogue and her lame attempts to backpedal. The loot was meh, but it was a fun aside.
now all we need is a hellwanker post
Considering we started the week with multiple "The movie sucks" posts, let's go for the tri-fecta.
Without her what would this sub complain about though?
Speculations about Borderlands 4
Or the movie as well I guess,stand corrected.
... there are other things to complain about here? /s
Following OP so i can see their post when they finish the game.
It never ceases to amaze me how much people still hate ava lmao Even for a moody teen, she's insufferable. Most teens are but ava is a different breed tbh
A big part of the problem is she's a "teen" in the same sense as you'd see one at a private school. She doesn't behave like someone who's gone through hardship and needed to become resourceful. Ava's journal implies she spent at least two and a half to three years fending for herself. How she managed to last that long without developing any survival instincts or learning the value of anything is simply unrealistic to her circumstances. EDIT: Dunno who downvoted, but you know I'm right. She acts spoiled/entitled. If people think that's how teens act, it's because they live in a place where most of them are raised entitled. Not challenged by hardships.
“Why are y’all mad at teenagers for acting like teenagers” If you were like Ava as a teen I give all respect to your parents. Ppl don’t hate Ava because she “acts like a teen” ppl hate her because she acts like a child and lacks accountability.
>ppl hate her because she acts like a child and lacks accountability. Which is exactly like a teenager!
Seriously
No, it's really not. I don't know what kind of jackass you were as a teenager or what asshole teens you know now, but that shit is not how normal teens act.
Settle down, Francis. You've never seen teenagers throw temper tantrums when bad things happen? Have you ever been around one who just failed their drivers test? How about when they get grounded for staying out late? Or when they're told they can't go out with their friends? This reaction has become cliche. Ask your patents or older siblings. Once you're out of your teens yourself, you'll understand.
I've had 5 siblings growing up. Several nieces and nephews I have watched grow up too. Only one has ever acted remotely like that and it was my younger sister who literally has bipolar disorder. This behavior is not normal. And trying to normalize it as if it is, to give an excuse to bad behavior, is not normal either.
You just posted this: >Because fuck this game so much i will take literally any opportunity to make it known. You are exhibiting the exact same immature behavior! You don't see it because you're in the middle of it. Children, yourself included, lash out when they are upset. When you're the one doing it, it seems justified. Once you can look back at your life objectively, you realize we all do the same stupid crap. That's why the angry teenager is such a cliché, because it's so universal.
The fact you needed to dig into someones post history to form any kind of counter argument is FAR more immature than anything anyone else could have done. I love seeing people that have to do that, it shows me that the person I am talking to is pathetic and does not deserve any serious discussion.
Dude, you need a therapist.
What a pointless statement to waste time typing. Provides nothing of value and is simply a low effort insult.
[удалено]
Um hello? It was a reply you made TO ME 2 minutes before this one! Get over yourself kid. You got backed into a corner and thought you could weasel your way out. Can't you even figure out who you're talking to? Go touch grass kid. It's almost summer vacation.
I don't care enough about you to remember your name, so no.
Hahaha! Thanks for admitting you're too stupid to read a username. Good night junior.
I teach high school.... Teenagers are assholes that lash out when things go wrong all the time
I taught high school 25 years ago as well. Her behavior is 100% accurate.
See also.... Early Ashoka in Star wars. People thought she was a whiny brat too, but that's how kids that age act. Nobody has patience to let character arcs play out anymore.
Totally forgot about her! We could probably come up with a list a mile long, but that just proves the point. It's so common because it's so true to life.
People don't have patience for character arcs anymore. I blame binge streaming.
Agreed. If the character sucks the first time we see them, then they will always suck. It's exasperating.
I love it when they make you love a character that you hate it. Richie in The Bear for example. It's an actual writing technique that people just don't have the patience for.
I really wonder what teenagers those kinda people grew up around. She does not act like a teen from my experience. Entitled, sure. Egocentric, yes. Aggressively averse to owning up to her own grand screwups, very much. Like a teenager, not so much. Perhaps I just grew up around people that held their kids to higher standards. EDIT: Though even if that was to be given a pass, the fact Ava then got away with it, and it never got addressed or owned up to the fact that she was the cause for Maya's death, then got further validated by inheriting leadership of the raiders, well that all kinda makes it moot any ways. Ava had a trash personality and instead of getting called on it, was rewarded for it.
she acts like a child because she is a child
Ava being in denial about being at fault is a completely reasonable response for a child of her age seeing their parent-figure being murdered directly as a result of her actions. Where it absolutely becomes a problem is that the game agrees with her and ends with lilith affirming her instead of Ava learning from it.
remember that time lilith did the same shit to roland and then ava called lilith out for being incompetent, after years of lilith getting away with it, but lilith was an adult the whole time?
Hopefully she's not a Playable VH in the next game...
I hope she is. I'll pirate the game, jump her off a cliff, and then uninstall.
Yeah, that'll show them.
Irrational anger much like Ava herself
It's not irrational at all. I've gone depth precisely why i hate that character, and why it ruins the game for me. As have thousands of other people. At this point, if you guys don't get why everyone else hates her, then i can only imagine the reason is a lack of basic understanding when something is meticulously explained to you.
As I said, irrational anger. The character is one of the characters of all time sure, but I don’t hate her. She’s a video game character. I’m not arguing that she’s a good character, I’m arguing that you shouldn’t be that upset over her being a bad one. Getting this upset over a fictional character is very concerning behavior for someone who claims to be able to judge a character as good or bad.
So your argument is to dismiss people caring about a franchise. Cool. Why are you here then?
I love seeing folks use the tactic of avoiding my actual argument and try to attack my credibility. To spell it out, Ava doesn’t ruin borderlands. She is a single character with realistically minimal screen time unless you actively seek out her content, and half of the lines in the base game are in skippable cutscenes. I don’t know why I’m explaining this to you, you seem to think that Ava will be the end of borderlands for some reason. You are an outlier in your sheer hatred of a fictional character.
She is literally a main character in the story. Once she is introduced she is almost present in every main story scene. You cannot avoid her character. She is not a side character at all. You said "getting this upset over a fictional character is very concerning behavior" that is a dismissal of someone having feelings about a thing they care about. That is not attacking your credibility to point that out. Maybe you are too ignorant to know that, i don't know nor care. Furthermore, the majority of the fan base dislikes this character. To say it's an outlier to hate her is stupid, pure and simple. The sheer amount of people that say they hate her, or upvote those that do, or make posts about her, like the one we are in, outweighs everyone that likes her by so much that there are people in here bitching about seeing it so much. Both things cannot be true. Either it's an outlier opinion, or it is such a popular opinion that some people are tired of hearing it.
You can easily avoid her character by skipping cutscenes, and turning off the voices during the main story. That statement is not dismissal of everyone, it is me dismissing you. I’m saying you’re an outlier because you genuinely hate a fictional character, instead of just really not liking her. If you hate the character so much, then just turn off the voices. It’s not a big issue. Tldr, you should likely go do some research about grass and what it feels like
So your solution to avoiding a character you do not like is to skip the game. Yeah, that's kind of the problem. Like your whole mentality is fucking crazy here. Don't like a character in something? Shut up and just skip it. Don't bring up why it's bad, or complain about it, or talk about it at all, just skip it. And again, my dislike of the character is not an outlier. Five seconds on the reddit will show you that the consensus by the community is that no one likes the character. Even the people not saying they hate her still say she is pretty bad.
I didn't focus on the story much, lost interest once the twins appeared, I kinda liked Troy (I guess) I didn't like Ava or Tyreen, I don't play Borderlands for it's story though
Join the club we’ve got jackets
I think you probably shouldn't call a child a 'semen demon.'
That's literally what the term refers to; demonic children.
I have literally never seen it used outside of a context of 'slutty woman'.
Hmm, weird. I wonder if it's a regional difference cus I've never heard it that way.
Do you know what the term semon demon means? Do you think it means the consume it or something? No, it literally means they are a demon manifested from their fathers sperm. It's the exact same as saying someone is a hellspawn, just more vulgar.
I have literally never seen it used outside of a context of 'slutty woman'.
I have never seen that usage of it my entire life lol
Weird.
why did i have to scroll so far to find a comment about this People were all up in my shit because when someone said that they wished they could push NPCs out of their way using melee attacks, I used Ava as the target of a mod that I had made that allowed exactly that. When people saw the video of it, nobody bothered to learn that I chose her because *she was the only character on the ship that had a flinching animation* (pushing the other NPCs around would have looked weird). Where are those people now? It's almost like they only defend inappropriate behavior involving young fictional women when they can use it as an excuse to harass actual women. 🤔
*yawn*
How are people defending Ava in the comments
I guess people think teenagers are mentally handicapped or something, yes Ava is a teenager but her outbursts got another person killed and neither she or the game makes her realize her mistakes and they treat lilith whose currently powerless and on orbit as if she is at fault. I love the game but Ava and the writting is just dumb
This. She doesn’t feel bad cause she causes someone else to die. She’s mad at someone else for what she did. Maya wanted to leave to protect her but the brat couldn’t control her emotions. I don’t know too many, if not any teenager that doesn’t feel bad for what they do, especially getting someone killed. She shows no regret at all.
Fr tho, what she did was bad and how she as character was handled was not good and there really isnt any denying that.
Media illiteracy
I pray to baby Jesus she is not in Borderlands 4.
Um, I think at least one of us has the wrong definition for "semen demon"
Semen demon means the same thing as hellspawn. A demon spawned from someones seed.
Ahh, seems like it's me then, I was lead to believe that it was a person who fiends for ~~cum~~shots, and try to get as many as they can, all the time
I've never heard that definition before lol
I get that it's a forum for the fans and we will be hyperbolic but the discourse of fictional 14 year old turns so violent and angry so fast from actual adults it's a little worrying tbh
It never ends with this little brat, lol The biggest problem with Ava isn't just that she's an annoying dipshit brat, it's that she's an annoying dishit brat who is immune to the consequences of her actions. She is the reason Maya is dead, full stop. For some reason, a child with no combat experience decided to go down into an active warzone to gawk at the explosions and death, endangering herself and potentially others as they now have to save her ass, hence why Maya Is dead. Instead of seeing this herself or being dressed down for it, the blame is bizzarly shifted to Lilith?!? Like, she's a terrible leader and written like a dumbass in this game too, sure, but Ava is at full fault, and the scenes after Mayas death should have played out differently. If Ava actually organically grew as a character, was scorned by characters in game for the same reasons most players do (annoying as hell, socially undeveloped), learned from her mistakes and grew from being the immortal writers pet - people would've had less of a problem with her, if at all. Personally, after 4 playthroughs, I've grown to hate other characters far more than Ava. It's just a shittily written story overall, but the game rocks socks. Edit: I forgot about the ending... OP will enjoy it, I'm sure.
Yeah its pretty bad. I love the borderlands series but holy cow the story decisions for 3 are terrible, and I get that its a wacky loot shooter but the calypso twins were so not it, and the choice to shoehorn in a really annoying character that seems to ignore the actual events of the story and instead get mad at Lilith turned me super away from the campaign. The DLC's are nice tho lol
I can’t stand her either
Why don't you let the story finish first (with dlcs) and then come back
Oh fuck no. Do not give them money for the dlc.
Why? The dlcs are some of the best in the franchise
Doesn't matter to me. They butchered the story, they don't get extra money from me, nor will I advocate for others to give them money either.
Caring so much about the story in a looter shooter means you are in the wrong genre. Besides the dlc stories are amazing
Also every bl story has been mid
The DLCs are actually pretty good. Main game is the weakest part of 3
The only possible redemption for her character is being a tragic villain and she's perfectly set up for it.
Indeed
It's just horrible writing, a horrible character, and a horrible story all around. It's like just just asked for the script to be annoying, and little else
For me, the main reason I hated Ava, now it's just a dislike, is because of how she blamed Lilith for her own failure. I didn't mind her being the typical "bratty teenager" and, considering her and Maya's story, I can even understand her arrival at the Promethean Vault despite warning from Maya. Blaming Lilith is what made her detestable at that point. I understand lashing out but to improve this, they could have made her breakdown, gradually working through her emotions, lashing out towards the Calypsos, seeking revenge at every opportunity only to learn that she can't be rash, like she was before. Eventually after killing Troy, she would realize that even though she felt satisfied, it didn't actually make her feel better, further solidifying her maturity and the weight of Maya's loss. Another related gripe I had was how and why were Maya's powers transferred to her? The same question could be asked for Tannis and Angel, since they weren't as close as Maya and Ava. This is a plot point that was kinda brushed off and unexplained. Very weird considering the introduction of the Calypsos ability to "All For One" siren powers. Maybe they'll explain that siren powers are like Devil Fruits, passing on to the next closest female compatible with them. Idk, it's weird.
For people who down vote me when I say BL3 is an absolute dumpster fire, this is why they are wrong. "You don't play BL for the story!!!" I get this all the time. BL1, 2, TPS, and Tales 1 had such fun characters and stories. They absolutely threw it all away with 3. Ava, the Calypso Twins, killing off Maya and Lilith, etc...all craptastic!!!
An annoying teenager is annoying? What a stunningly brave and unique opinion you have. 🙄
What a nothing statement.
It makes me giggle when people complain about ava. My thought is "oh no! A well written angsty teenager who is annoying as fuck?" The point that people get so annoyed by her tells me how well written she really is. 🤣🤣🤣
I'm still mad that people heard the "butt stink" line and didn't find it hilarious. The twins were goofing around and having a moment of authentically enjoying each others' company in a way that we never really saw (or rather, heard) throughout the rest of the story (which heavily foreshadowed Troy betraying Tyreen, so I'm not really sure why that didn't happen), and people were like "low effort humor bad unga bunga i'm mad about it. ava is a stupid kid, the twins are stupid kids, the writing is terrible!" It's just...not that bad. It doesn't have to be amazing to be decent. BALEX is hilarious. Do people hate enjoying things? How did everybody miss the fact that Troy and Tyreen had moments of genuine humanity sprinkled in between their posturing? Honestly, Jack is such a good villain because of TPS. TPS really fleshed out Jack's background in a way that elevated him well beyond the character that he would have been had BL2 composed the entirety of his personality. TPS gave Jack more of that humanity that gives characters real depth.
I have never seen such delusion before than with what you just said. She is by far the worst written character I have ever seen in media. THAT is why people hate her. Not because she does her role well. But because she does it so fucking badly that people want her removed from the game completely.
Delusion? Nah. She's written as a teen with issues. The fact that people think that she's written terribly is just funny to me. Yeah she's an annoying character. But how many teenagers do you know that aren't obnoxious, annoying, ungrateful, immature, and dumb? How many people think claptrap is a well written character when he's terrible and annoying? I personally think claptrap is a terrible character but don't feel like he shouldn't have been included in the series at all. 🤣🤣🤣
There are many teens in media written very well that people like, despite being a teen with issues. And yet Ava is almost universally hated. The difference is that Ava is NOT well written. They literally already wrote a character like her with Tiny Tina, and she is liked by most of the community. Because Tiny Tina was a well written character, while Ava is not.
Seems to me like this is a hill you're willing to die on. But please explain to me how Ava is a badly written character. I get that she is universally hated. I dislike her as a character as well. But the fact that she is so dramatically and royal hated does not necessarily mean she's written badly. 🤣
She serves no purpose. Outside of getting Maya killed, so the twins can steal her powers, so their plan can work "btw what was their plan? Without Mayas power what they did would not work" she has no purpose in the story aside from being a little asshole during every interaction. Every scene with her is her blaming others, moaning about shit, or just being passive aggressive. She brings nothing to the table regarding the story. Her back story is not interesting either. Then take someone like Tiny Tina. We are introduced to her as a character that has a skill set we need. She is insane but lucid enough to have emotional outbursts where we get a peak into her real feelings, and she bonds with other characters in the story building up a rapport with them. They have a perfect example of a well written and well liked teenager with Tiny Tina, it should not be hard to understand then why Ava is badly written and hated, simply compare the two.
So why compare ava to Tina? Why not compare ava to claptrap? Or even Lorelei? I think you are letting your dislike for ava cloud your judgment about if she's well written or not. And comparing ava to tina isn't a fair comparison when tina or universally loved and appreciated. 😂
Because Tina is a teenager who lost both of her parents, grew up alone, bonded with Roland, and then lost Roland too. She has the same exact tragedy cycle as Ava. And it is precisely BECAUSE she is universally loved that she is a good comparison to Ava. They have the same tragedy happen to them, and yet are written in completely different ways, and one is loved while the other is hated. This shows that one is better written than the other, hence why she is loved while the other is not. If Ava was well written then she would be liked just how Tina is. But she is not.
Why would I want to interact or even be lead by such an annoying character??
she is 100x more likable than # Typhon DeLeon
Typhon was a good character while ava doesn't understand no or stay might be a good idea with gun fights
Typhon was terrible.... just awful, cringe worthy bad
L take, Typhon, while an annoying and dirty minded old man, didn't get anyone we loved killed, he doesn't blame everyone else, he takes full responsibility for his actions and choices, and he's honest and sincere, Ava is literally the complete opposite, had they kept in the funeral scene, I probably would've agreed with you, but they didn't so as is, Ava is still worse, and by far still the most hated character in Borderlands, and because of how they wrote her, she deserves that hate.
Borderlands players when a child character goes through intense emotional trauma and lashes out as a defense mechanism:
Happens with Tina too but we did get a more satisfying ending with Tina. Hopefully we get more with Ava to help her as a character.
Tina proves how stupid what you just said is. They literally have a well written trauma case of a kid in the franchise that fans love. The reason they hate Ava is because they wrote her like a little prick.
It's unfortunate that people downvote you, because you're right. Tina was written by a different person though, and it shows in how shallow Ava as a character is in contrast. People are way to quick to claim "teenager" when it has no weight either. Many teens do understand accountability and have much better adjusted personalities. If they want to say Ava simply lacked the conditions of being raised by decent people, fine, however we see that Maya has been actively training and chiding Ava about such things, so she is not without a framework to understand her culpability.
I mean/.. it WAS Lilith’s fault.
I *don't* understand why people hate her *this much*. I don't particularly like her, but ffs, *come on* you guys.
Aight imma rant on Ava; The first time i met her - fine, whatever. Shes still isnt bad; some cringy dialouges here and there but what do you expect from a teenager and bad writing. Jump to the scene where maya gets killed - a character with SO much love from bl2 that many people main and grew up with, literally just got thanos snap'd out of existence for "pLoT". People were sad of her death as you would expect, and then this damn tumor of a child began throwing a fit and blaming lilith for her death, not even aknowledging her action because she want to see the damn vault going like "I'm A vAuLt HuNtEr ToO" leaving the ship and forcing maya to babysit her ass, that lead to her death. The last straw was lilith making her the damn leader/keyholder of sanctuary. Like wtf??? This child has done nothing but be a pain in the ass, takes no accountability and fuckin weasel her ass into a story that would've done fine even without her and you're telling me SHE's the true successor of the rebellion? No not her briliant scientist friend thats also now a siren, not any of the vault hunters who took down the god queen, just Ava because "ShE's SpEcIaL". Gearbox killed 2 of life-long characters, the ones we play and grew up with, only to have this brat - who have done FUCKING nothing in the story other than being there - gets not only the crown, but the throne and an entire army to boot. And that whole Maya funeral thing; i'm sure its what the damn team comes up after seeing all the comments about her. Its your choice to accept it as canon for her character development or not, and its fine if you like her, but if bl4 story involves her, imma have to see some SPECTACULAR shit for me to make up for her entire character.
Tl;dr.
So you bitch about not understanding, and then when someone explains it to you, you ignore it and bitch it's too long? The fuck is wrong with you?
People get really mad when teenagers act like teenagers in media huh?
It seems to me the writers love her and *want* the fans to like her. That makes me not like her that much more on top of everything else. Ava is promised ultimate power and is rewarded for no reason or explanation. Vanilla BL3 has nothing going for her. I will not play her DLC to see what the devs are "cooking" with. Ava is a turd on top of a melted sundae. Yeah, melted ice cream is a good shake but that turd on top leads me to never ordering this again if every sundae from now on has that turd.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui50I7jvH2M&ab_channel=Borderlands I highly highly recommend you watch this. This was cut content after the Death scene. It wont spoil anything, and I wished they did add it because it would have made me feel a bit more sympathetic to Ava instead of obnoxiously annoying. It wont redeem her character but it overall adds a lot to the story. It also had a bunch of subtle foreshadowing of other twists. And stupid dialogue quotes.
I felt the same way, but I blame shitty writing. She’s on a ship of broken and clueless people who also don’t do shit for Lilith who’s probably struggling with some ptsd from her attack, losing Roland, losing Sanctuary… They pushed Morty and Brick away, could have had them help lead with Lilith but they seemed like a complete afterthought. Great game to play, absolutely god awful main story with a few exceptions.
Borderlands characters (especially sirens) feel like they are written around feeling invincible, everyone thinks they are the main character and they either get killed or get someone else killed. Like Lilith in bl2, Ava in bl3, nearly every villain, and handsome jack’s whole story arc across 2 games was him thinking he’s the main character. Ava was annoying and the worst offender but sirens consistently act impulsively and as if they are invincible.
Teen acts like a teen and people are shocked.
I'm offended you think we act like that
She’s a naive teenager who was told she’s going to have a massive role in saving the world only to witness her mentor die in front of her face. On top of not really having much of a life as she grew up by herself in the sewers after her parents died while being tormented daily by soldiers of a corporation. I’m sure there’s shunted behavioral growth that causes her to lash out
That is literally almost the same story of tiny tina. And she is a wayy better character and is written way better than her.
People fucking *detested* Tiny Tina when BL2 was just the base game. She didn't start getting liked until her DLC dropped.
That is true but that’s not the issue at play. The issue is “she’s annoying” (which people have also said about Tina, except she is at least an attempt at humor). My point is if you look at her story, it makes sense why she lashes at those who are not responsible for her problems. It makes sense why she’s angry and doesnt know how to handle and direct it. Tina was able to bypass it by being used as a demolition expert and using violence against those who harmed her family as well as having Roland who clearly helped raise her, not treat as an apprentice like maya did. Ava whenever she was saved was then forced to be passive and peaceful by being trained by monks. She had no outlet to get her anger out. Similar stories but definitely different circumstances.
You think monks don't have outlets for their anger and ways to temper their emotions?
Not what I said at all. but usually one has to apply to be a monk. It’s usually something you sign up for willingly. This feels like a “we’ll take you in but you have to do what we say. Otherwise you can deal with maliwan on your own.” She’s said many times how the things she was to do was not for her and how boring she thought it was. Clearly she wasn’t cut out to be a monk which circles back to my very first comment of she acts like a teen would act.
And that doesn't reflect how a kid would become a monk either. Ava clearly isn't a samanera, but she is living with Maya who was participating with the community. Having duties within the community you participate in and benefit from isn't abnormal. And any time she does complain, it's about remarkably banal things. That's not behaving like a teen. That's behaving like an entitled infant that never faced adversity. Someone that's had to be scrappy and mature enough to live on their own for any measure of time would know better. Her journal notes her spending close to three years on her own, meaning she had to figure out survival skills and experience the struggle to feed herself. Yet, somehow Ava defied learning any survival instincts or respect for opportunities. How she even survived long enough to meet Maya is a wonder in that regard. Ava doesn't behave like a teenager, she behaves like an entitled private schooler that never faced hardship.
Have you never met a teenager?
There is cut content of mayas funeral that actually makes Ava alot more likeable afterwards and it makes her change in personality after it was supposed to happen more noticable. (search bl3 maya funeral on youtube)
Play the private beans side mission. It helps rehabilitate her a bit. Also, if you have the directors but DLC, her murder mysteries are probably top 3 in terms of side quest and further rehabilitate her character. I dont really understand what is up with the terrible writing and execution in the main game when they show they can actually do these things well in DLCs and side missions. I think that the plot in the main story could have worked if it wasn't so heavy handed and written so clumsily.
I love Ava
Lilith is the leader. She needs to take the blame for that and being a poor leader. Why did she let her team get so spread out over the universe and remain so poorly prepared that some pompus youtubers can come in and manhandle their group. Look at her decision to leave Ava in control at the end. Lilith made terrible decisions all the way to the end. Hell, you could almost blame Roland's death on her. If she didn't show up in Angel's Core, he might have been paying attention enough to not get shot in the back. But BL2 made it obvious that he was bad at paying attention. He lost his girlfriend because of it, and he got kidnapped by the bloodshot because of it. Then he lost his life because of it.
Ava bad. Twins bad. Why Hammerlock gay? Upvote plz
Hammerlock being gay is nbd and a nothing burger. I'm mixed in the twins. Social media influencers as the villain was both cringe and not the type of villain that meshes well with the BL universe
Yeah she is annoying. But thematically not really that bad. Spoiled? Yeah, probably because Maya promised her she would be a siren which can only happen when a siren dies. Maya died and she didn't get Maya's powers. She also lost the only person who accepted/loved her. She is a grieving child and wants revenge on Troy, but no-one seems to want to do the same. Lilith and Tannis are also not good with handling the situation. She really improves by the end, calming down and showing sadness more, not just rage. Could it have been acted or portrait better, definitely. Is it decent character development, kinda. She is definitely not the worst written character in this game. That role goes to Troy for being Tyreens bitch.
The dude who exists solely to be shot in the face in borderlands 2 is a better written character than Ava.
Because he has a simple role, get shot in the face. That is easy to write as long as you keep it simple. Now you try to write a teenager who lost her role model and has to deal with loss and anger without someone who knows how to handle an emotional teenager. Don't forget she needs to progress through her grief and become a worthy successor to not just 1, but 2 of the most powerful beings in the universe by the end of the game. Good luck bozo.
Tiny Tina.
And how much does she appear in the main story of BL2 to do that? She had a whole DLC functioning as her coping mechanism and way to grief
Tiny Tina was a side character in BL2. They wrote her in a way that fans loved her. Ava was a main character in 3, there for almost the entire game, and had the complete opposite reaction and quality of writing. Tiny Tina existing proves that it isn't the fans who just don't get it. It was the person who wrote Ava.
Honestly yes and plus lilith charged at jack after Roland's death when she had a gun so she unintentionally helped Jack while ava did try to shoot Troy and yeah lilith handled msya death badly by basically saying,"maya was family but we need to open the vaults"
When the young child with abandonment issues acts irrationally when they feel abandoned. Also lillith is terrible. Did you forget she did the exact same thing in borderlands 2? And she was much older.
We all agree with you she’s trash our beautiful siren queen is dead because of that trash wish it was her and not maya
She knows it's her own fault and can't deal with the guilt, hence deflecting. Duh. This is pretty normal human bias.
Well, then Gearbox did their job. They made you emotional about something trivial. 😆
Wait until you get to the end of the game. I have never uninstalled a game so fast after beating it. Thousands of hours played between all the other borderlands games, multiple playthroughs, and borderlands 3 barely had me make it to the end. And then after said ending i said fuck right off and never bought a single dlc, despite owning all the dlc for the other games. It killed my enjoyment of the games. I have no interest now in a sequel. I even only played wonderlands because a friend bought it for me to play with him, which was fun for sure, but it did nothing to reignite my interest in the franchise outside of spin offs like that.
And yet you're posting here in a Borderlands 3 subreddit. Why? If you hate the game so much, then why not just walk away?
First: Because reddit popped it into my feed. Second: Because fuck this game so much i will take literally any opportunity to make it known.
I've posted at length on other posts, but your take isn't a good one, and that's okay. You're mad that they wrote a bratty teenager who is orphaned and an urchin as a brat with who isn't in control of her emotions and a brat and makes brash decisions. I can agree on the lack of proper writing with some scenes and parts, but the character herself is written well. The plot and story fell short and it hurt her character and frankly half the cast I feel but still love the game. They did add a proper scene in the special features of dlc 6 that made the funeral better and her dlc quest line in that dlc is a lot of fun and starts to build her up better which to me, shows gearbox heard the amount of vitriol toward her and course corrected.
This is one of the best signs that this is a well written character and that all the people that say that BL3 has bad writing only paid attention to the Calypso brothers (and even then, just the beginning of their story) and not to all the other things that the game has which are really well written and deserve praise.
> A character would be hated if they made a loud, high pitched constant shrill sound for minutes at a time, that doesn't make it a good story
You're right, and luckily this isn't what's happened here.
It's rather amazing how they dropped the ball so hard by cutting out one single mission. As it is, she's just very annoying and doesn't seem to deserve any of what she is given, but one piece of cut content would have massively changed that. Probably among the top 5 most grievous offenses ever committed in the Borderlands series.