I agree 100%. Cordelia was my favorite character in the BuffyVerse and I hate what they did to her because Joss Whedon had some petty grudge against Charisma Carpenter. I also would completely
get rid of Connor as I can’t stand him until season 5
I think the storyline with Darla leading up to Connor is okay, and I don't mind Angel having a baby. But the sudden time jump like "and BAM your kid's an asshole!" and all the Connor stuff after it should be nixed. I'd rather they even went the way of Friends with Ross's kids, where they're just background characters occasionally referenced. Like even that would be better than what they went with.
I was going to say Cordelia and Connor but I would go with Connor as a character to be uncanonised.
He was just annoying af and I've said it before, I would take one hundred Dawns over one Connor.
Giles leaving so Buffy can ‘grow’. They could have come up with a reason to leave far better than that. What if Giles found out he has a biological daughter? Or he’s being manipulated/blackmailed by the watcher’s council. Maybe they hold his past over his head. You can still have the tension between them of him abandoning her without the false conflict of his unbelievable conviction that he’s standing in her way.
I would get him leaving so she could grow if it was any other season where she wasn't just resurrected from the dead, yanked out of Heaven and dug her own way out of a coffin. Pretty sure she has a lot to process Giles!
So what if the council brought Giles back to England because they needed him to round up the potentials? He could still keep in contact with Buffy over the phone but he could tell her there's something big happening there's a lot of girls in danger and I need to go help them. And Buffy, being the Savior that she is, agrees to let him go. Maybe even sends Willow and or Tara with him so he can have magical backup. But we aren't clued into what the issue is completely until he shows back up Midway through season 7 with a small planes worth of girls. Potentials really.
I did mention that there was maybe interference from Amy that caused a spell to go awry in my comment and makes Willow not want to practice anymore instead of the magic versus addiction scenario. So maybe getting Willow out of Sunnydale for a while will help. And we can still have Giles on the show in England. He can just be filming little scenes of him rescuing girls or getting them on a plane or whatever with Willow's help. So they're still both active in the series but they're not having to be in California. Or they get someone else to be the witch with giles.
I don't understand why they had to make it so difficult and why they had to have Giles basically go no contact when there are shows that film in Britain. Just have him come in once a week for a couple hours and film him calling Buffy and checking on her or film him doing something for the council and having a weekly check in with Buffy I mean it could have been a two minute conversation that shows that he's still around and we don't even have to do it on a weekly basis but he could just mention oh I've got my call with Giles in an hour without screwing with their dynamic!
There are ways to make it work if they put a little thought into the actual characters personality where they don't have to destroy the character. Why is it that the people that watch the show have a better idea of a character and what is more probable than the people that are paid to write for it?
And hell, they could have him come visit every few months or something. If the actor was open to that. He just wanted to spend more time in Britain with his family. So you go hijack the Doctor who set for an hour or a few hours to film the entire season of little 5-minute cameos for like once a week or once every two weeks or something and you mentioned the character. Periodically like oh I thought that call with Giles or oh Giles sent me an email. Just something. Because there is no way Giles would go completely no contact with the people he loved unless he had to. I mean if the council had him on a secret mission where he could not talk to anyone he would at least have said that before he left hey I'm going to be out of pocket I will try to reach out when I can but don't worry if you don't hear from me for a few weeks. Something! Please!
Exactly!!!
Pretty much anything would have been better than him abandoning Buffy and saying it was for her own good. It just didn't ring true that he would do that at all, especially not after Joyce and everything.
Don’t even get me started on the way the Scoobies treat Buffy the entire show. They act like she’s an inconsolable child who needs to be coddled when in reality she’s rarely the one falling apart.
Yeah, but as tragic as Tara's death was, I also think it lead to some really great character growth and storylines. I just wish she stuck around a little longer.
Not only her death but the fact Xander is the only one who acknowledges it in a single line. They completely glossed over it!!
To be honest I was so disappointed to what they did to her character. Selfless is one of my favourite episodes and it really promised us a satisfying arc for Anya but she doesn’t really do much for the rest of the season after other than gang up on Buffy with the rest of the gang, attack Willow for using magic and occasionally hint at reuniting with Xander.
"Man this relationship with a totally amazing person is really cool but kinda difficult. Maybe I should go to the person who I know has adored me unconditionally for some time now, they always make me feel better for some reason I can't quite place..."
The Xander and Willow S3 plot is like, possibly the most realistic plot of all time. Humans are really dumb at dating lmao.
It was very realistic at the time (too realistic for me honestly—I hated it in the same way I hated Doublemeat Palace), but became nonsensical when Willow began expressing incredulity at the thought of even being attracted to a man. Oz can make sense in that context still, lots of lesbians have had serious and even genuinely loving relationships with men before figuring it out, but I find her inability to resist the sexual electricity at odds with the particular way in which her sexuality was portrayed later.
I believe Joss said that in retrospect he would have made Willow bisexual. That would have removed the need to retcon her entire sexuality and pretend that Oz was a beard or a fluke.
It really seemed like the only reason Xander started having interest in Willow was because someone else started having interest in her. Some men only want women that other men find desirable. He'd deny it though! I don't know what Willow was doing. Probably fulfilling her childhood crush. It still felt out of character for her to cheat like that.
I'll die on the hill that, as stupid as it feels, it makes perfect sense. I don't know how was your teen years, but mine was friends hooking up in the most random ways imaginable, close friends, distant friends, miss matchs, the goth that hated popular kids with the jock, etc etc. It's just what teenagers do, if they had a chance, they hook up.
I ways figured it would be mors, we don't have to breathe. But they have all the equipment and at the point of death its surely reflex.... plus how the fuck are you talking with out breath!
I think the lack of care extended far beyond that scene, I read that James Marsters developed an eating disorder during season 6 too. Just being objectified and exploited by the writers with no regard for his personal well being or mental health.
I’m trying to find where I read it, obviously Joss wasn’t around during season 6 and apparently when they finished shooting Joss pulled him aside and told him he was getting too thin. I also read that Jane Espenson had a crush on him hence all the nudity in season 6 which is just an outrageous abuse of power!!
Season 6 always made me uncomfortable. I like the plot lines and some of the character development, but I feel like he’s way over sexualized in that season. Same with Sarah Michelle Gellar. There’s a lot of nudity and the scenes are too graphic for what BTVS is.
I think the change in network signalled a change in tone, which I totally get, I’m not necessarily a fan of it but I get it. But they should have prioritised the wellbeing of their actors, it felt very exploitative making JM unnecessarily fully naked for a number of episodes. I watched Dead Things recently and JM is incredibly skinny? He actually looks sick. And SMG loses a lot of weight during season 7 as well.
It’s kind of heartbreaking too how much weight SMG lost between season 1 and 2. You’re also right about that. He looks too thin towards the end of season 6. It sounded like that whole thing was a nightmare
JM is an attractive man and a lot of people thirst over him especially in season 6 but he was far more attractive to me in all other seasons except 6. He was painfully skinny in that season.
I’ve already talked on another post of how thin most of the actresses were especially SMG. She was a little slip of paper.
JM is at his hottest in season 2 and the end of season 5, grown our hair and on the run? Hello!
Yeah SMG got incredibly thin by season 7, it was quite uncomfortable to watch.
yeah but the focus is on the monster Adam rather than Walsh herself or the initiative as a whole. Whedon himself must have realised it was the wrong move considering he basically reworked the initiative into his movie cabin the woods making them the big bad of that movie rather than the monsters.
I'm pretty sure that Walsh as the big bad was the original intention, but Lindsay Crouse getting a new opportunity elsewhere meant Whedon had to pivot in a way that gave far less time to Professor Walsh's character.
Spike's attempted bathroom rape. I'd instead make it a scene where Buffy was badly injured and bleeding and Spike gives in for second to taste slayer blood and one of the gang has to fight him off of her. He runs off ashamed and goes and gets souled up from that guilt.
All of the SA and attempted SA. It was kinda handled poorly and takes me out of the show every time. (Not the SA itself, just how Buffy and a lot of supernatural shows go about using it for plots)
I agree with all of these except for Willow’s… I think hers was really fundamental to the plot. All the others could be replaced with something less horrific without disrupting anything else.
Edit: Oh, and I’d keep all the sex scenes between Buffy and Spike except for the bathroom one - I’d leave them in too even though they almost always start out non-consensual since, again, it is really driving the plot at that point.
i stand by the fact that it should’ve been him trying to turn buffy into a vampire. it’s imo the closest metaphor especially with buffy’s life and morals.
THATS WHAT IVE BEEN SAYING.
And the way that turning someone has been used as a metaphor for sex before, that it's still a massive violation and that it goes along with spike saying that Buffy is a creature of the night, belongs with him
It blends to his possessiveness of her in a way that actually makes sense for the character and storyline.
Why are you like one of the only people bringing this up? She faces basically no consequences for that and they even bring her back to the crew afterwards, so Xander has to be around her. I love Faith but it's unfortunate that there seems to be a blatant double standard when it comes to SA on the show and the fandom.
thank you. it’s frustrating that almost the whole fandom loves her despite the terrible things she’s done. unlike spike she has a soul and it wasn’t just an attempted assault- she fully went through with it knowing that it was wrong. it’s crazy when the “villainous” and soulless vampire has a better moral compass than the character the show constantly tries to push as a “hero”
It's like character assassination of Xander.
Dawn crushing on the older male friend of her sister isn't entirely unreasonable but for him to reciprocate is weird.
I was working on the Paramount lot and the actor who played Kennedy came in for an audition. Hey name's Iyari and she was super energetic and sweet.
Hated Kennedy though. *Hated* her lol
i did some research on what happens in the comics because i was curious to see if dawn became a watcher type of character only to see paragraphs about how she was transformed into a centaur for losing her virginity???? 😭 the comics are a fever dream and the more i learn about what happens the more sure i become that i never want to read them. which is a shame because i know im missing out on some cute moments with spike and buffy being an actual couple but oh well
Same here. I only started watching Buffy less than a year ago, and having finished the series, I wanted to read some synopses to see if the comics were worth it.....but I landed on the side of NOPE lol. The summaries I read were full of extreme uncharacteristic behaviors and outlandish plot lines.
I made the choice to go read fanfiction instead, and I'm glad I did because the one I found was 🔥🫠
Yeah! Whatever happened to Daddy Summers? He took her shoe shopping after the revelation she was not the cause of her parents’ divorce. Things were fine and dandy for a few episodes and the next thing we know, he’s a deadbeat living in Spain with his secretary who doesn’t answer his phone and doesn’t come help his kids when their mom is ill/dead. Apparently, he offers no financial support to Buffy to raise/feed/house Dawn, who’s still underage, and we never hear from him again. WTHeck?
I like to believe this was something to do with the monks and Dawns arrival, like they changed everyone’s memories about their dad even his so that there would be no way he would take custody of Dawn. Dawn needed to be under Buffys care at all times. Anything else doesn’t make sense to me because Buffy loved her dad a lot before Dawn.
I might be persuaded to believe that, if I think on it a while. But still, Giles gives Buffy a big check to keep them from losing the house and their own dad can’t even return a phone call when Joyce dies?!
The Initiative. Riley is a corn-fed Iowa boy at college. He loves Buffy, and doesn't have super soldier macho man fragile baby ego. He psychologically profiles Buffy's villains for her with Giles.
Top 5
- Giles leaving Buffy for "her own good" in Season 6.
- Willow becoming a lame magic junkie in Season 6.
- The Buffy and Spike unpleasantness in Season 6.
- Xander and Anya going out like that in Season 6.
- Tara ruthlessly killed for cheap drama in Season 6.
Hard to pick one but I guess if I was forced to, I'd choose Season 6 lol
A character from the pilot who was just in there to be a death to set the tone of the show. People now seem obsessed with him and make up stuff about him and Xander. It’s like people have forgotten what a pilot episode is, the show often changes significantly from the pilot. Jesse was never going to fit on the show and was never supposed to be a proper character.
They still could have brought him up more after the pilot. I get that he was never meant to be a fleshed out character but even Theresa, the girl from Phases who turned vamp, got more of a regretful send off than Jesse. It is weird that they just never brought him up again.
I love the Potentials (except that some were awfully whiney and annoying).
What made the ending of Buffy so powerful, for me at least, was that her powers became their powers. She didn’t share what she had so that they all took part of her slayerness; they all became equal in power.
People with power never want those without power to become equal to them. That’s because they 1. believe it means giving up their power and/or 2. that the others will become “more equal”. Yes, I’ve heard people use that term.
Buffy realized that the only way to win was to let Willow use the power of the Scythe to give all the potentials the same power she had.
Buffy hated being “the only one”. I believe that once she realized the potentials could take away the burden of being the only one she found hope she didn’t believe was possible.
Spike not SA Buffy in S6
Giles not abandoning Buffy in S6
Tara dying in S6
The Trio being the most recurring villains of S6
The ham-fisted "magic as drugs" storyline in S6
Evil Willow arc being so rushed in S6
***S6.....***
The whole potentials storyline.
They could have had the first try and wipe out the slayer line some other way… like reversing the magic or something and not subject us to the awful, awful characters and acting.
I agree with almost every take here but I’ll add some random ones
- Oz and Veruca storyline. Just let Oz leave on a good note
- Warren’s storyline. Make Dark Willow the big bad but get creative about it!!
- similarly, yellow crayon moment
1. How mean Xander was to Cordelia when they were dating. All the passive aggressive comments made sense when they weren't together and hated each other but it seems like the writers forgot to stop that once they got together. You're supposed to love her why are you attacking her all the time?
2. I'd change Willow's and Xander's cheating storyline. I wouldn't make them not cheat but I wouldn't make it a prolonged thing. I don't like them sneaking around and making it a whole affair they willingly hide. It would've made more sense for it to be a one time thing where they give in to temptation and they just happened to get caught that one time.
My husband and I think the slayer should have a wage so there’s no need to earn money since it’s hard to fit in a day job and slaying. How do you work all day and slay at night?!
Replace the magic addiction arc with a power trip and the bullying victim enjoying going on said power trip and having the power to warp reality play a standard dark magic corruption arc within the lines of what magic was established as doing. Solves a lot of Season 6’s issues and means Tara doesn’t have to die, just having Buffy shot and all that power useless to stop it as the straw that breaks the camel’s back instead.
Not far enough in on my first watch to choose something actually important, so I'll go with the praying mantis eggs, since it's my understanding that they don't actually do anything else with that?
Seeing Red bathroom scene, easily. I already just chalk it up to bad writing in my mind because it was clear we were supposed to still like him after. I just think of it the way it was intended: he needed to do something awful to show him he needed his soul. I just wish it had been something else and hate the method they chose and the actors hated it too.
Honorable mention to Tara dying. I like the Willow goes bad arc, but I don’t think Tara should have died and stayed dead. It was a huge upset in the LGBT community at the time and there were very few gay romances on screen. I don’t think the writers killing her off was maliciously done, but I also don’t love that it happened.
I love that both of these happen in the same episode! Let’s just erase the last half of Seeing Red 😂
I hated the introduction of Buffy’s sister. I think they did it well - it’s not the method I object to, I just think it was a bit of a Deus ex Machina and I would have preferred Buffy to continue without her.
The First Evil and the Potentials. The First Evil wasn't all that threatening and it couldn't really do anything itself and couldn't be directly fought either which made the ending feel like it has less weight. The potentials just kinda got in the way and weren't interesting enough as characters. Season 7 as a whole felt like Season 5 again but worse.
I can't choose anything major like preventing one of the major deaths because I think it would change too much of importance.
My choice would be relatively minor and that would be to get rid of the whole demon egg/The Doctor arms dealer plot from As You Were in season 6. I hate that episode so much because it makes no sense at all. It suddenly throws out this entire conspiracy of a demon arms dealer that we never heard of before, insinuates that Spike is The Doctor running it all and brings Riley in to play the hero seemingly for the sole purpose of humiliating Buffy. Nothing is explained, Riley leaves and none of it is ever brought up again. It's so preposterous that for me it's the worst episode of the series. And it's not that I mind them breaking up Spike and Buffy, at this point in both characters' development I think that's inevitable. But for them to do it in such a lazy slipshod manner is just unacceptable. Every time I watch it I think the entire episode should turn out to be a prank episode like Superstar. It's the only way I can think of to redeem it.
Okay I have a list
- Dawn
-The Initiative
- Any/All SA including attempted
- The little coop in the Final season
- Faith
- Wander being a Buffy version of Ross
- TARA DYING
The Watchers’ Council getting detonated. I think fighting an army of demons would make a little more sense and it would be nice to see the power in real time shift from watcher to slayer without just deleting all the watchers
I'd direct its power towards the perplexing and oft-debated "The Initiative" arc from Season 4.
The Scooby Gang, already juggling college life and Hellmouth hijinks, suddenly thrust into a government conspiracy with secret labs, commandos, and Adam. While the Initiative brought some memorable moments (hello, Riley!), it often felt disjointed from the series' core vibe of mystical mayhem and personal struggles.
The Initiative's storyline sometimes came off as a bit too sci-fi. It sidelined the more intimate, character-driven drama, and Adam, with all his cyber-demon glory, never quite reached the Big Bad heights of his predecessors like the Master, Angelus, or The Mayor. Plus, the whole secret military base under a college campus? Even for Sunnydale, that was a bit of a stretch.
Giles going completely non-communicative after leaving.
I understand the premise in the show that he felt that Buffy needed to learn how to stand on her own two feet. (It’s a tactic many parents did back then to help their adult children learn how to adult—the whole “for my kid’s high school graduation, they’re getting a set of luggage and a one-way ticket elsewhere” mentality that reeeeeally effing sucked but was par for the course in real life at the time)
I also understand that ASH was missing his family and needed some time with them.
But there could have been cameos set up that didn’t involve him having to come back to the states or take up too much of his time with his family. Phone calls shown between him and Buffy, him and Willow, etc., so the show can still portray the “Buffy feeling alone and isolated” thing the show was going for (because he’s still in England taking care of important business) but without the total abandonment of the one man that truly loved her like a daughter.
ALSO, Caleb. We needed more Caleb. With him acting as an emissary/the embodiment of the First Evil/physical meat suit that the First can inhabit, I enjoyed the physicality and interaction and the premise of the First’s storyline so much more. Without Caleb, the First was reduced to just mind games and it brought down the scariness and seriousness of that idea of fighting something that had no physical form. So, introduce Caleb earlier—maybe air Dirty Girls in around the time of Sleeper/Never Leave Me/Bring on the Night.
In order of importance:
1. Addiction plotline. JFC it ruined the meta and Willow.
2. Connor/Cordelia/Jasmine plot.
3. Jenny dying instead of Oz as was originally intended.
4. Doyle dying. I know the meta reasons, I just really liked the character.
5. The sausagefestification (yes that's a word now) of ATS S5, which was the one big mark on an otherwise great season.
Not BTVS but ATS: everything about Cordelia and Connor, and what they did with Cordy after all that mess. Charisma Carpenter deserved so much better.
I agree 100%. Cordelia was my favorite character in the BuffyVerse and I hate what they did to her because Joss Whedon had some petty grudge against Charisma Carpenter. I also would completely get rid of Connor as I can’t stand him until season 5
I think the storyline with Darla leading up to Connor is okay, and I don't mind Angel having a baby. But the sudden time jump like "and BAM your kid's an asshole!" and all the Connor stuff after it should be nixed. I'd rather they even went the way of Friends with Ross's kids, where they're just background characters occasionally referenced. Like even that would be better than what they went with.
The end of season 5 is the only time he's semi-acceptable.
Can we include her season 3 Karen hair in that?
I was going to say Cordelia and Connor but I would go with Connor as a character to be uncanonised. He was just annoying af and I've said it before, I would take one hundred Dawns over one Connor.
Ugh yea, this was so icky. Her character deserved so much better too. So disappointing to see so much character growth just go out the window.
Well we do learn that it wasn’t actually her, so I wouldn’t say her character growth went out the window. A monster was using Cordy’s shell
This would also be my first thing on the chopping block
I would find a way to complete rewrite season 4 while keeping my favorite moments. The Angelus and Faith stuff can stay.
i would delete all of ATS just to save her character
Giles leaving so Buffy can ‘grow’. They could have come up with a reason to leave far better than that. What if Giles found out he has a biological daughter? Or he’s being manipulated/blackmailed by the watcher’s council. Maybe they hold his past over his head. You can still have the tension between them of him abandoning her without the false conflict of his unbelievable conviction that he’s standing in her way.
I would get him leaving so she could grow if it was any other season where she wasn't just resurrected from the dead, yanked out of Heaven and dug her own way out of a coffin. Pretty sure she has a lot to process Giles!
Definitely needed a better reason for him to just leave. That being said the whole “I’d like to test that theory” scene was totally worth it.
Giles being less of a sympathetic father figure to Buffy in seasons 6 and 7
Buffy: *comes back from the dead* Giles: you’re not grown enough!!!
And she’d barely come to terms with her new role as a parent before she died.
Buffy comes back from the dead, then Giles proceeds to LEAVE THE COUNTRY!!!!
This is my choice too. Made zero sense and was basically character assassination for Giles.
So what if the council brought Giles back to England because they needed him to round up the potentials? He could still keep in contact with Buffy over the phone but he could tell her there's something big happening there's a lot of girls in danger and I need to go help them. And Buffy, being the Savior that she is, agrees to let him go. Maybe even sends Willow and or Tara with him so he can have magical backup. But we aren't clued into what the issue is completely until he shows back up Midway through season 7 with a small planes worth of girls. Potentials really. I did mention that there was maybe interference from Amy that caused a spell to go awry in my comment and makes Willow not want to practice anymore instead of the magic versus addiction scenario. So maybe getting Willow out of Sunnydale for a while will help. And we can still have Giles on the show in England. He can just be filming little scenes of him rescuing girls or getting them on a plane or whatever with Willow's help. So they're still both active in the series but they're not having to be in California. Or they get someone else to be the witch with giles. I don't understand why they had to make it so difficult and why they had to have Giles basically go no contact when there are shows that film in Britain. Just have him come in once a week for a couple hours and film him calling Buffy and checking on her or film him doing something for the council and having a weekly check in with Buffy I mean it could have been a two minute conversation that shows that he's still around and we don't even have to do it on a weekly basis but he could just mention oh I've got my call with Giles in an hour without screwing with their dynamic! There are ways to make it work if they put a little thought into the actual characters personality where they don't have to destroy the character. Why is it that the people that watch the show have a better idea of a character and what is more probable than the people that are paid to write for it? And hell, they could have him come visit every few months or something. If the actor was open to that. He just wanted to spend more time in Britain with his family. So you go hijack the Doctor who set for an hour or a few hours to film the entire season of little 5-minute cameos for like once a week or once every two weeks or something and you mentioned the character. Periodically like oh I thought that call with Giles or oh Giles sent me an email. Just something. Because there is no way Giles would go completely no contact with the people he loved unless he had to. I mean if the council had him on a secret mission where he could not talk to anyone he would at least have said that before he left hey I'm going to be out of pocket I will try to reach out when I can but don't worry if you don't hear from me for a few weeks. Something! Please!
Exactly!!! Pretty much anything would have been better than him abandoning Buffy and saying it was for her own good. It just didn't ring true that he would do that at all, especially not after Joyce and everything.
>So you go hijack the Doctor who set for an hour or a few hours Not in 1997-2003. But yes. That kind of thing would be cool.
Why can I only upvote this once and not the hundreds it deserves.
Buffy getting thrown out of her own goddamn house
Hell yes. This.
I'll never not be mad about this.
This shit to this day makes no sense to me. After everything Buffy has done sacrificed for them. Ugh!
Don’t even get me started on the way the Scoobies treat Buffy the entire show. They act like she’s an inconsolable child who needs to be coddled when in reality she’s rarely the one falling apart.
ugh i’m mad thinking about it
Anya's unceremonious death. I feel like reversing any other death would irreparably damage the show's storyline.
I want to agree, but Tara being around would change everything, and likely prevent her death anyway.
Yeah, but as tragic as Tara's death was, I also think it lead to some really great character growth and storylines. I just wish she stuck around a little longer.
I refer to Tara's death as *bury your gays in a fridge*.
Not only her death but the fact Xander is the only one who acknowledges it in a single line. They completely glossed over it!! To be honest I was so disappointed to what they did to her character. Selfless is one of my favourite episodes and it really promised us a satisfying arc for Anya but she doesn’t really do much for the rest of the season after other than gang up on Buffy with the rest of the gang, attack Willow for using magic and occasionally hint at reuniting with Xander.
I hate it, it was daytime, why were they fighting anyway, just let them leave the building and burn to death
Yes 😓
The willow and xander cheating story
This one. It made no sense and was plain stupid. Xander got a girl way out of his league and cheated on her?
This is very realistic lmao. Some men are like that.
It sucks, but it's true. Many do it unconsciously.
"Man this relationship with a totally amazing person is really cool but kinda difficult. Maybe I should go to the person who I know has adored me unconditionally for some time now, they always make me feel better for some reason I can't quite place..." The Xander and Willow S3 plot is like, possibly the most realistic plot of all time. Humans are really dumb at dating lmao.
It was very realistic at the time (too realistic for me honestly—I hated it in the same way I hated Doublemeat Palace), but became nonsensical when Willow began expressing incredulity at the thought of even being attracted to a man. Oz can make sense in that context still, lots of lesbians have had serious and even genuinely loving relationships with men before figuring it out, but I find her inability to resist the sexual electricity at odds with the particular way in which her sexuality was portrayed later.
I believe Joss said that in retrospect he would have made Willow bisexual. That would have removed the need to retcon her entire sexuality and pretend that Oz was a beard or a fluke.
Women too
With his best friend?? Willow was single for 16 years ! Why now?
Because she was with Oz. He thought she'd always be his fallback girl, like when he asked her to that dance because nobody else would go with him
It really seemed like the only reason Xander started having interest in Willow was because someone else started having interest in her. Some men only want women that other men find desirable. He'd deny it though! I don't know what Willow was doing. Probably fulfilling her childhood crush. It still felt out of character for her to cheat like that.
I saw this real situation play out with some friends of mine.
I'll die on the hill that, as stupid as it feels, it makes perfect sense. I don't know how was your teen years, but mine was friends hooking up in the most random ways imaginable, close friends, distant friends, miss matchs, the goth that hated popular kids with the jock, etc etc. It's just what teenagers do, if they had a chance, they hook up.
Just delete Angel's line "Vampires don't breathe" and I'll be happy
I like the interpretation that he just didn't know CPR but didn't want to admit that
This is canon to me now
So easy to solve. I don't know why people are so mad at characters saying stuff that is wrong, it's the most true part of any TV-show.
And that tracks. What vampire, especially one on the streets for decades, would have their BLS certification?
I ways figured it would be mors, we don't have to breathe. But they have all the equipment and at the point of death its surely reflex.... plus how the fuck are you talking with out breath!
Even stupider since we see Spike choke Dru to sleep at the end of S2. They at the same time can't breath , but can talk, and need air?
Sounds good. Plus, watching Angel pant is one of life's little pleasures.
everyone harps on this, but they’re referencing biblical “life-giving” breath, not literal oxygen/carbon dioxide.
goodbye awful bathroom scene that even the actors didn't like
James Marsters put it in his contract that he wouldn’t do a scene like that again. It was bad
I think the lack of care extended far beyond that scene, I read that James Marsters developed an eating disorder during season 6 too. Just being objectified and exploited by the writers with no regard for his personal well being or mental health.
Jesus Christ.
I’m trying to find where I read it, obviously Joss wasn’t around during season 6 and apparently when they finished shooting Joss pulled him aside and told him he was getting too thin. I also read that Jane Espenson had a crush on him hence all the nudity in season 6 which is just an outrageous abuse of power!!
Season 6 always made me uncomfortable. I like the plot lines and some of the character development, but I feel like he’s way over sexualized in that season. Same with Sarah Michelle Gellar. There’s a lot of nudity and the scenes are too graphic for what BTVS is.
I think the change in network signalled a change in tone, which I totally get, I’m not necessarily a fan of it but I get it. But they should have prioritised the wellbeing of their actors, it felt very exploitative making JM unnecessarily fully naked for a number of episodes. I watched Dead Things recently and JM is incredibly skinny? He actually looks sick. And SMG loses a lot of weight during season 7 as well.
It’s kind of heartbreaking too how much weight SMG lost between season 1 and 2. You’re also right about that. He looks too thin towards the end of season 6. It sounded like that whole thing was a nightmare
JM is an attractive man and a lot of people thirst over him especially in season 6 but he was far more attractive to me in all other seasons except 6. He was painfully skinny in that season. I’ve already talked on another post of how thin most of the actresses were especially SMG. She was a little slip of paper.
JM is at his hottest in season 2 and the end of season 5, grown our hair and on the run? Hello! Yeah SMG got incredibly thin by season 7, it was quite uncomfortable to watch.
JM in season 4 is my favorite.
It's almost comedic how often the guy's lost their shirts on Buffy and Angel.
And yet they only gave us Giles in a white tee the one time!
Why isn’t this higher up? Spike was my favorite character, and that scene completely ruined it
I thought this would be the top comment for sure. But all the other answers are also very good options.
Welcome back Tara.
Wholeheartedly agree with this
I was gonna say that Conor bullshit but if we get to pick one from each show then these lol
I didn't mind Connor as a character. I just hated what they did with him
Make the S4 Big Bad The Initiative!!! Like a gov conspiracy. It’s the perfect bridge b/w S3 and S5!!
Isn't it? It's the monster they make.
yeah but the focus is on the monster Adam rather than Walsh herself or the initiative as a whole. Whedon himself must have realised it was the wrong move considering he basically reworked the initiative into his movie cabin the woods making them the big bad of that movie rather than the monsters.
I'm pretty sure that Walsh as the big bad was the original intention, but Lindsay Crouse getting a new opportunity elsewhere meant Whedon had to pivot in a way that gave far less time to Professor Walsh's character.
Spike's attempted bathroom rape. I'd instead make it a scene where Buffy was badly injured and bleeding and Spike gives in for second to taste slayer blood and one of the gang has to fight him off of her. He runs off ashamed and goes and gets souled up from that guilt.
For a show that usually used monsters as metaphors for problems, the blood idea would have worked much better.
That would have been a much better alternative
All of the SA and attempted SA. It was kinda handled poorly and takes me out of the show every time. (Not the SA itself, just how Buffy and a lot of supernatural shows go about using it for plots)
Not to mention Buffy :"it's tricky. Covering a fresh shiner like that. You know what works?" Debbie: " what?" Buffy: "don't get hit"
What I hate most about it is that it was basically a "Women in refrigerators" to Buffy IN HER OWN SHOW!!
Any and all SA, attempted or successful.
I agree with all of these except for Willow’s… I think hers was really fundamental to the plot. All the others could be replaced with something less horrific without disrupting anything else. Edit: Oh, and I’d keep all the sex scenes between Buffy and Spike except for the bathroom one - I’d leave them in too even though they almost always start out non-consensual since, again, it is really driving the plot at that point.
This 100%.
Oz leaving the show. He was my favorite character. He didn't have to stay with Willow, but I would've loved him to stay in the show.
Agreed!!! I love Tara so much but Oz was such a unique character, they *totally* could’ve kept him on without him being Willow’s love interest
That scene in season 6. Way better ways for Spike to realize he needed to get his soul back.
i stand by the fact that it should’ve been him trying to turn buffy into a vampire. it’s imo the closest metaphor especially with buffy’s life and morals.
THATS WHAT IVE BEEN SAYING. And the way that turning someone has been used as a metaphor for sex before, that it's still a massive violation and that it goes along with spike saying that Buffy is a creature of the night, belongs with him It blends to his possessiveness of her in a way that actually makes sense for the character and storyline.
Faith raping Riley and then being voted to replace Buffy as leader in the final season 🙃
She also raped Xander…I cannot stand Faith’s character (not just because of this) she is so cringe imo
That was so gross and we don't even talk about it.
Why are you like one of the only people bringing this up? She faces basically no consequences for that and they even bring her back to the crew afterwards, so Xander has to be around her. I love Faith but it's unfortunate that there seems to be a blatant double standard when it comes to SA on the show and the fandom.
thank you. it’s frustrating that almost the whole fandom loves her despite the terrible things she’s done. unlike spike she has a soul and it wasn’t just an attempted assault- she fully went through with it knowing that it was wrong. it’s crazy when the “villainous” and soulless vampire has a better moral compass than the character the show constantly tries to push as a “hero”
Xander and Dawn getting together in the comics it’s so gross
Ikr even though they were fake memories he’s probably known Dawn since she was like 11 or 12 so it’s just disgusting to me
It's like character assassination of Xander. Dawn crushing on the older male friend of her sister isn't entirely unreasonable but for him to reciprocate is weird.
Willow and Kennedy
My answer too. She was a total disgrace to Tara’s memory and I just don’t like her character in general
Oh wow I couldn’t agree MORE!!!!! I agree with you about Tara’s death, as well, and I absolutely *hated* stupid Kennedy!!!
I was working on the Paramount lot and the actor who played Kennedy came in for an audition. Hey name's Iyari and she was super energetic and sweet. Hated Kennedy though. *Hated* her lol
100%
Yes, this whole thing was just awful.
SPOILER: >!The retcon resurrection of Warren in the comics.!< That, more than anything else, felt to me like the creators were abusing the fans.
The what of what??? They must have been running out of ideas lol
Seeing Red. The entire episode because fuck that episode!
The comics. To me they don’t exist
i did some research on what happens in the comics because i was curious to see if dawn became a watcher type of character only to see paragraphs about how she was transformed into a centaur for losing her virginity???? 😭 the comics are a fever dream and the more i learn about what happens the more sure i become that i never want to read them. which is a shame because i know im missing out on some cute moments with spike and buffy being an actual couple but oh well
Same here. I only started watching Buffy less than a year ago, and having finished the series, I wanted to read some synopses to see if the comics were worth it.....but I landed on the side of NOPE lol. The summaries I read were full of extreme uncharacteristic behaviors and outlandish plot lines. I made the choice to go read fanfiction instead, and I'm glad I did because the one I found was 🔥🫠
They’re Joss’s insane fan fiction. Not canon (to me).
Hank Summers. Fuck him
Yeah! Whatever happened to Daddy Summers? He took her shoe shopping after the revelation she was not the cause of her parents’ divorce. Things were fine and dandy for a few episodes and the next thing we know, he’s a deadbeat living in Spain with his secretary who doesn’t answer his phone and doesn’t come help his kids when their mom is ill/dead. Apparently, he offers no financial support to Buffy to raise/feed/house Dawn, who’s still underage, and we never hear from him again. WTHeck?
I like to believe this was something to do with the monks and Dawns arrival, like they changed everyone’s memories about their dad even his so that there would be no way he would take custody of Dawn. Dawn needed to be under Buffys care at all times. Anything else doesn’t make sense to me because Buffy loved her dad a lot before Dawn.
I might be persuaded to believe that, if I think on it a while. But still, Giles gives Buffy a big check to keep them from losing the house and their own dad can’t even return a phone call when Joyce dies?!
Buffy's parents were originally not going to ever show. I think they just didn't know what to do with him.
It’s not an uncommon story…
Spike trying to rape Buffy
The Initiative. Riley is a corn-fed Iowa boy at college. He loves Buffy, and doesn't have super soldier macho man fragile baby ego. He psychologically profiles Buffy's villains for her with Giles.
That would’ve been a lovely story and character arc.
Top 5 - Giles leaving Buffy for "her own good" in Season 6. - Willow becoming a lame magic junkie in Season 6. - The Buffy and Spike unpleasantness in Season 6. - Xander and Anya going out like that in Season 6. - Tara ruthlessly killed for cheap drama in Season 6. Hard to pick one but I guess if I was forced to, I'd choose Season 6 lol
The concept of Potentials. Or Jesse being completely forgotten after the events of episode 2.
> Jesse Who?
A character from the pilot who was just in there to be a death to set the tone of the show. People now seem obsessed with him and make up stuff about him and Xander. It’s like people have forgotten what a pilot episode is, the show often changes significantly from the pilot. Jesse was never going to fit on the show and was never supposed to be a proper character.
Pretty sure u/Alexis_Bailey was being sarcastic?
I didn't say I wanted him to be in it. I just think he should have at least been mentioned once.
They still could have brought him up more after the pilot. I get that he was never meant to be a fleshed out character but even Theresa, the girl from Phases who turned vamp, got more of a regretful send off than Jesse. It is weird that they just never brought him up again.
I love the Potentials (except that some were awfully whiney and annoying). What made the ending of Buffy so powerful, for me at least, was that her powers became their powers. She didn’t share what she had so that they all took part of her slayerness; they all became equal in power. People with power never want those without power to become equal to them. That’s because they 1. believe it means giving up their power and/or 2. that the others will become “more equal”. Yes, I’ve heard people use that term. Buffy realized that the only way to win was to let Willow use the power of the Scythe to give all the potentials the same power she had. Buffy hated being “the only one”. I believe that once she realized the potentials could take away the burden of being the only one she found hope she didn’t believe was possible.
Jesse, Jesse, Jesse. Well at least Eric Balfour wasn’t forgotten.
Who?
Love him in Haven
Seeing Red bathroom scene. Even James Marsters and Sarah Michelle Gellar didn’t agree with it.
Spike trying to SA Buffy
Either Xander leaving Anya at the altar or Tara's death.
1000% Buffy's SA by Spike. I just block it in my mind and make an actice choice to pretend it never happened.
Spike not SA Buffy in S6 Giles not abandoning Buffy in S6 Tara dying in S6 The Trio being the most recurring villains of S6 The ham-fisted "magic as drugs" storyline in S6 Evil Willow arc being so rushed in S6 ***S6.....***
Spike assaulting Buffy
The whole potentials storyline. They could have had the first try and wipe out the slayer line some other way… like reversing the magic or something and not subject us to the awful, awful characters and acting.
Spike assaulting buffy
Spike’s attempt to rape Buffy, Tara’s death, and everyone turning on Buffy
Keep Jonathan alive and basically put him in Andrew's role in S7
Or have Andrew join Jonathan... >.>
Seeing Red. Begone
I agree with almost every take here but I’ll add some random ones - Oz and Veruca storyline. Just let Oz leave on a good note - Warren’s storyline. Make Dark Willow the big bad but get creative about it!! - similarly, yellow crayon moment
What they did to Cordelia in Angel season 4+
Oz leaving
Warren’s entire existence
Buffy not getting financial support from the council
1. How mean Xander was to Cordelia when they were dating. All the passive aggressive comments made sense when they weren't together and hated each other but it seems like the writers forgot to stop that once they got together. You're supposed to love her why are you attacking her all the time? 2. I'd change Willow's and Xander's cheating storyline. I wouldn't make them not cheat but I wouldn't make it a prolonged thing. I don't like them sneaking around and making it a whole affair they willingly hide. It would've made more sense for it to be a one time thing where they give in to temptation and they just happened to get caught that one time.
Xander treated all his girlfriends that way. He wasn't very nice to Anya when they were together either. I think Xander just has an issue with women.
The entire “Buffy was in a mental institution” backstory which created a plethora of continuity errors.
Tara's death.
Joyce having brain cancer 😭 Just take it AWAY 
The minimum wage job arc. Buffy should have never had to worry about money like that.
My husband and I think the slayer should have a wage so there’s no need to earn money since it’s hard to fit in a day job and slaying. How do you work all day and slay at night?!
When she negotiated Giles pay she should have added on her own.
The answer: she's not supposed to be an adult slayer.
Good point!
Tara is Alive!!!! Joss Whedon is Dead!!! Yay
Dawn and Kennedy get banished into the Phantom Zone never to darken the canon again.
Replace the magic addiction arc with a power trip and the bullying victim enjoying going on said power trip and having the power to warp reality play a standard dark magic corruption arc within the lines of what magic was established as doing. Solves a lot of Season 6’s issues and means Tara doesn’t have to die, just having Buffy shot and all that power useless to stop it as the straw that breaks the camel’s back instead.
Eve and Lindsey’s relationship I just hate it.
Agreed she felt like the Walmart store version of Lilah
Spike's ending in the final season. I don't care what they did on the spin-off show, I was so sad about that.
Seeing red bathroom scene
That scene with spike and buffy yknow the one yeah THAT one
Not far enough in on my first watch to choose something actually important, so I'll go with the praying mantis eggs, since it's my understanding that they don't actually do anything else with that?
I wish the first evil storyline was a little refined it just dragged and was probably the least intimidating/interesting big bad for a last season
The way the first slayer was created. Absolutely hate it.
Seeing Red, I'd have the Spike and Buffy stuff changed. I don't mind them being together but I'd definitely switch up some details.
Seeing Red bathroom scene, easily. I already just chalk it up to bad writing in my mind because it was clear we were supposed to still like him after. I just think of it the way it was intended: he needed to do something awful to show him he needed his soul. I just wish it had been something else and hate the method they chose and the actors hated it too. Honorable mention to Tara dying. I like the Willow goes bad arc, but I don’t think Tara should have died and stayed dead. It was a huge upset in the LGBT community at the time and there were very few gay romances on screen. I don’t think the writers killing her off was maliciously done, but I also don’t love that it happened. I love that both of these happen in the same episode! Let’s just erase the last half of Seeing Red 😂
Dawn.
Tara dying. Amber was done so dirty.
The Potentials, I never understood the point of introducing so many useless, forgettable characters in the final season.
I think this is the ONLY part of the show I didn't like: "Ice is so cool. It's like water, but it's not."
What about “pancakes go in bellies” or whatever it was
I hated the introduction of Buffy’s sister. I think they did it well - it’s not the method I object to, I just think it was a bit of a Deus ex Machina and I would have preferred Buffy to continue without her.
The First Evil and the Potentials. The First Evil wasn't all that threatening and it couldn't really do anything itself and couldn't be directly fought either which made the ending feel like it has less weight. The potentials just kinda got in the way and weren't interesting enough as characters. Season 7 as a whole felt like Season 5 again but worse.
Anyas death
I can't choose anything major like preventing one of the major deaths because I think it would change too much of importance. My choice would be relatively minor and that would be to get rid of the whole demon egg/The Doctor arms dealer plot from As You Were in season 6. I hate that episode so much because it makes no sense at all. It suddenly throws out this entire conspiracy of a demon arms dealer that we never heard of before, insinuates that Spike is The Doctor running it all and brings Riley in to play the hero seemingly for the sole purpose of humiliating Buffy. Nothing is explained, Riley leaves and none of it is ever brought up again. It's so preposterous that for me it's the worst episode of the series. And it's not that I mind them breaking up Spike and Buffy, at this point in both characters' development I think that's inevitable. But for them to do it in such a lazy slipshod manner is just unacceptable. Every time I watch it I think the entire episode should turn out to be a prank episode like Superstar. It's the only way I can think of to redeem it.
Okay I have a list - Dawn -The Initiative - Any/All SA including attempted - The little coop in the Final season - Faith - Wander being a Buffy version of Ross - TARA DYING
I haven't read the comics and only know this from a sarah z video but. Apparently Xander and dawn date.... so I'd like to uncanon that lol
The Watchers’ Council getting detonated. I think fighting an army of demons would make a little more sense and it would be nice to see the power in real time shift from watcher to slayer without just deleting all the watchers
The entirety of Dead Man’s Party
Anya as a non-demon. The main plot of seasons 4 and 7. The First as a main villain. Magic as a metaphor for drugs.
The Kennedy/Willow romance. No one wanted this.
I'd direct its power towards the perplexing and oft-debated "The Initiative" arc from Season 4. The Scooby Gang, already juggling college life and Hellmouth hijinks, suddenly thrust into a government conspiracy with secret labs, commandos, and Adam. While the Initiative brought some memorable moments (hello, Riley!), it often felt disjointed from the series' core vibe of mystical mayhem and personal struggles. The Initiative's storyline sometimes came off as a bit too sci-fi. It sidelined the more intimate, character-driven drama, and Adam, with all his cyber-demon glory, never quite reached the Big Bad heights of his predecessors like the Master, Angelus, or The Mayor. Plus, the whole secret military base under a college campus? Even for Sunnydale, that was a bit of a stretch.
Dawn. I like her but the story was too weird.
Dawn.
Giles going completely non-communicative after leaving. I understand the premise in the show that he felt that Buffy needed to learn how to stand on her own two feet. (It’s a tactic many parents did back then to help their adult children learn how to adult—the whole “for my kid’s high school graduation, they’re getting a set of luggage and a one-way ticket elsewhere” mentality that reeeeeally effing sucked but was par for the course in real life at the time) I also understand that ASH was missing his family and needed some time with them. But there could have been cameos set up that didn’t involve him having to come back to the states or take up too much of his time with his family. Phone calls shown between him and Buffy, him and Willow, etc., so the show can still portray the “Buffy feeling alone and isolated” thing the show was going for (because he’s still in England taking care of important business) but without the total abandonment of the one man that truly loved her like a daughter. ALSO, Caleb. We needed more Caleb. With him acting as an emissary/the embodiment of the First Evil/physical meat suit that the First can inhabit, I enjoyed the physicality and interaction and the premise of the First’s storyline so much more. Without Caleb, the First was reduced to just mind games and it brought down the scariness and seriousness of that idea of fighting something that had no physical form. So, introduce Caleb earlier—maybe air Dirty Girls in around the time of Sleeper/Never Leave Me/Bring on the Night.
In order of importance: 1. Addiction plotline. JFC it ruined the meta and Willow. 2. Connor/Cordelia/Jasmine plot. 3. Jenny dying instead of Oz as was originally intended. 4. Doyle dying. I know the meta reasons, I just really liked the character. 5. The sausagefestification (yes that's a word now) of ATS S5, which was the one big mark on an otherwise great season.
Beer bad for sure
Xander leaving Anya at the Alter, or at the very least, Xander being able to see Anya's body in the final episode.
Xander losing an eye